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Maciamo
22-03-03, 04:29
I am not going to post link in Japanese, French, German or other languages for most of the people on this forum wouldn't understand what's said. The tone is generally neutral or clearly against war. In the US, war propaganda is raging. I've had a quick look around. I've concentrated on the big names like CNN and MSNBC.


CNN announces the "good news" in the headlines that oil fields have been captured :
U.S. official: Troops seize key oil fields (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/21/sprj.irq.fires/index.html)


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- U.S. and British troops have seized, in lightning raids, two strategically important airfields in western Iraq and strategic oil fields in southern Iraq, according to a senior U.S. military official.

ABC :
France Said to Be Working on Saddam Exile Deal (http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/Primetime/saddamexile_030321.html)

=> Plain, stupid anti-French propaganda

I even found this title on MSNBC "Chirac rejects new U.N. resolution", but the link showed another article about Putin (??).

Then there is the "paranoiac news" on MSNBC :

Suspect linked to "dirty bomb" plot? (http://msnbc.com/news/888153.asp?0si=-)

or more propaganda showing the usual arrogance and over-confidence :

Rumsfeld: Saddam "losing control" (http://msnbc.com/news/842500.asp?0cv=NB10)

After that, they carry on with selfishly exaggerating news of "casualties". Of course not a word about the hundreds of civilian Iraqi, just "4 Marines" who knew what they were up for :

Casualties's kin get dreaded news (http://msnbc.com/news/888496.asp?0si=-)

Still on MSNBC, the article on demonstrations around the US concludes with :


The antiwar street protests contrasted with the support for the military campaign indicated in public opinion polls. In a CNN-USA Today-Gallup poll, 70 percent of the respondents said they agreed the United States had acted at the right time to topple Saddam's regime.
The CNN-USA Today-Gallup poll of 602 adults has an error margin of plus or minus 4 percentage points. The poll was conducted Thursday

Newsweek seems proud of US technology and hopes for few (US) casualities :
Q&A: Smarter Weapons, Shorter War? (http://www.msnbc.com/news/887808.asp)


I'm not sure people realize the size of the hammer we are lowering on Iraq.
So, is that something to be proud of ?
Yes ! They continue :

March 19 ? When America last went to war with Iraq a dozen years ago, U.S. forces achieved victory in six weeks and lost fewer than 300 soldiers (nearly half of them to non-battle-related deaths).


U.S. OFFICIALS HOPE those figures will be even lower during this conflict and Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, calls the current Iraqi war plan (much, much, much different) from that used in Desert Storm. Technological advances are a big part of the reason why. Missiles are now guided by lasers and satellites, new tanks come equipped with computerized mapping systems and cruise missiles can be redirected midflight. High-power microwave bombs are able to knock out entire power grids with a massive energy surge.

Good, good... But who cares about the receiving end of this nice technology ?

thomas
22-03-03, 10:21
Yesterday I browsed the Washington Times (yep "Times", not "Post") and found a banner saying "Boycott France". I followed the link and found this page

=> https://www.newsmaxstore.com/contribute/france/index.cfm

It reminds me of the Nazi campaigns in the 1930s not to buy at Jewish stores.

kirei_na_me
22-03-03, 16:09
You know, it's just so crazy how much of the news is censored here in the U.S. and how much propaganda is thrown in. We get TV Japan via satellite here at our house, and NHK news can be reporting something completely different from what we're hearing on CNN, MSNBC, CBS, etc.

For example, Wednesday night, when this whole thing started, Dan Rather of CBS was reporting that the first explosions we were hearing was anti-aircraft fire, but at the exact same time, NHK was reporting that it was from B-52's that had taken off from Great Britain?

So many things have been proven to have been fabricated about wars in the past. Take for instance back during the Persian Gulf War, it was reported that the Iraqi soldiers were ripping the Kuwaiti babies from their incubators, and later we found out that was completely false. It was merely a rumor. Yes, it is in fact propaganda. Anything to get the American people's support.

By the way, Maciamo, I really enjoy your posts. :cool:

Vicidian
22-03-03, 17:20
Meh, I disregard most info I get from mainstream news channels and sites. I do my best to get information from others. Unfortunately, most of the people still in Baghdad are mainstream.

But anyway feel free to post links to other languages. I have two translaters that are the best you could porbably find.

French, Spanish, German, Portugese, etc..: http://www.freetranslation.com

Japanese: http://www.nifty.com/globalgate/
(Put it in the bottom box and don't touch the drop down menus)

Kirei, the US isn't the only country to practice in the art of propoganda.

kirei_na_me
22-03-03, 17:33
Yes, I know that very well, Vicidian. Every country has hang-ups, I know. ;)

And you are a very pleasant debater, I think. :)

den4
22-03-03, 19:36
hey, can't have war without propaganda of some form, even if the ones that speak it don't think it is... :D
rumors are the ones that usually cause the greatest problems...pretty much like the hoaxes one finds in them emails... :P

Maciamo
23-03-03, 06:31
Originally posted by Vicidian

But anyway feel free to post links to other languages. I have two translaters that are the best you could porbably find.

French, Spanish, German, Portugese, etc..: http://www.freetranslation.com

Japanese: http://www.nifty.com/globalgate/
(Put it in the bottom box and don't touch the drop down menus)


I've tried them. From French to English, it's almost ununderstandable. From Japanese to English, it's alright. That's weird since English and French have a very similar structure and 50% words almost identical when written.The Nifty translator did a good job in restructuring the word order from Japanese to English. I am impressed. Anyway, this kind of translations leave much to be desired and surely leads to misunderstandings.

Iron Chef
23-03-03, 12:18
Couple quick observations re: the media and their coverage of the war:

Re: Coalition casualties, I certainly do not mean to make light of the matter that lives were lost when I say this but is it just me or are we kinda of shooting ourselves in the foot so to speak during the course of this engagement? To date, i've seen absolutely zero confirmation of enemy casualties (although i'm sure there are some) and coverage has been very limited in that regard, yet consider the following:

Helicopter goes down not as a result of enemy fire but rather cause is undetermined (probably mechanical): 8 british and 4 Americans dead.

Two British Royal Navy helicopters collide over the Persian Gulf, killing all seven on board including a U.S. Navy officer.

Grenades lobbed inside an Airborne command center killing one U.S. serviceman and wounding 13 others. Perpetrator is believed to be a 101st Airborne engineer. Possible motive given: "Resentment" by Army spokesperson.

RAF fighter goes down, primary suspect is a U.S. launched Patriot missile...

You get the picture... This whole episode of recent debacles on behalf of coalition forces strikes me as unnerving. Granted, it is wartime and I suppose these things do happen, yet I still can't get over the feeling we are literally shooting ourselves in the foot so to speak. With all of the military hardware at our disposal, along with the incredible amount of preparation and planning that has gone into this operation you would think it would not be such a common occurence...

Secondly, (on a lighter note) re: Baghdad coverage, is it just me or does anyone else find it somewhat humorous that despite the constant overnight bombardment of the Presidential palace compound in downtown Baghdad, daytime shots show a continuous stream of traffic, not to mention the occasional pedestrians going about their business? I mean, for real... what does it take for the civilian population there to realize getting out of town for a few days might not be such a bad idea?!? Heck, if the sun is out and i've got a few extra bucks in my pocket, i'm more as likely to call in "sick" and take the day off--doesn't take much here for me to play hooky, yet the Iraqi people seem to be going about business as usual despite the obviously perilous situation.

Anyways, everyone knows where I stand on this whole issue of the war but I just wanted to take a step back and make a couple observations that have really stood out in my mind after watching the constant media coverage.

thomas
23-03-03, 12:47
I am not following events that closely, but it seems that the disinformation system in GW II (Gulf War) differs from the one employed in GW I. There's a lot more media confusion now as to events taking place in Iraq. Take that city Umm Qasr: yesterday it was reported that the city has been occupied/liberated. Local population cheering, tearing down Saddam pics all over town, etc. Today they report pockets of fierce resistance. Basra: BBC reported the capture of the town, yesterday Gen. Frank said that allied forces will not occupy/liberate the city. So, are they already in town or not? The same yes/no tactics apply to Turkish forces in the North and to the advance of allied troops towards Baghdad. The pixelated camera shots from CNN do not help to clear the confusion.

Haivart
23-03-03, 20:27
IC: don't you know about the putting down of one's enemy? The first thing you do is deny his humanity--translation: the media/government/whatever don't want anyone to feel sorry for the Iraqis, so they ignore the casualties.

Thomas: we've heard about boycotting French products for at least a couple of week now-- so I go out of my way to buy French products.

As for information sources, I choose the BBC--at least they try to be objective and stay away from unconfirmed rumors (at least they have in the past)

Maciamo
24-03-03, 15:36
Originally posted by Iron Chef

Secondly, (on a lighter note) re: Baghdad coverage, is it just me or does anyone else find it somewhat humorous that despite the constant overnight bombardment of the Presidential palace compound in downtown Baghdad, daytime shots show a continuous stream of traffic, not to mention the occasional pedestrians going about their business? I mean, for real... what does it take for the civilian population there to realize getting out of town for a few days might not be such a bad idea?!? Heck, if the sun is out and i've got a few extra bucks in my pocket, i'm more as likely to call in "sick" and take the day off--doesn't take much here for me to play hooky, yet the Iraqi people seem to be going about business as usual despite the obviously perilous situation.

Baghdad has 6million inhabitants, or about 1/4 of Iraq's total population. Most of the country is just desert and I don't see where to and how people would leave their city with the US army all around. Then, it's part of the strategy. If they leave, the US army can bombed more easily and occupy the city with less resistance. As I see things coming, the Iraki army is going to hide among civilian in their houses and American troops won't be able to get full control of the city before they all (civilian included) run out of food or amunition. What dire prospects !

mdchachi
24-03-03, 16:48
I am not following events that closely, but it seems that the disinformation system in GW II (Gulf War) differs from the one employed in GW I. There's a lot more media confusion now as to events taking place in Iraq.

I would put this down more to the confusion of war than "disinformation." This is the first time in history where reporters are able to report real-time from the battlefield. So they thought they had taken that port town and found out later that there was still resistance. The soldiers themselves were probably confused so it makes sense that the real-time reports were confused as well.

Iron Chef
24-03-03, 22:47
Re: my earlier comments, good points about the possible reasons why the Iraqi civilian populace has yet to leave. Makes sense.

mdchachi
26-03-03, 18:28
Kind of sad, kind of funny. "Human Shields" realize that they're being used by the Iraqi regime and it's really not a good idea to go to a war zone after all.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31710

Australian Jake Nowakowski's human-shield mission with the Truth, Justice, Peace group lasted only three weeks. He told the London Telegraph he was manipulated by Iraqi authorities, and when he tried to defy them, he and five other human shields were kicked out of the country...
Daniel Pepper, a 23-year-old Jewish-American photographer, also admitted to the Telegraph that he had been duped by Saddam's secret police. "Anyone with half a brain must see that Saddam has to be taken out. It is extraordinarily ironic that the anti-war protesters are marching to defend a government which stops its people exercising that freedom," Piper wrote. "Perhaps the most crushing thing we learned was that most ordinary Iraqis thought Saddam Hussein had paid us to come to protest in Iraq," he added...
One said the trip "shocked [him] back to reality." The Rev. Kenneth Joseph, an American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East, told the Times that some of the Iraqis he interviewed on camera told him they would commit suicide if American bombing didn't start.

Maciamo
28-03-03, 09:51
Originally posted by thomas
I am not following events that closely, but it seems that the disinformation system in GW II (Gulf War) differs from the one employed in GW I. There's a lot more media confusion now as to events taking place in Iraq. Take that city Umm Qasr: yesterday it was reported that the city has been occupied/liberated. Local population cheering, tearing down Saddam pics all over town, etc. Today they report pockets of fierce resistance. Basra: BBC reported the capture of the town, yesterday Gen. Frank said that allied forces will not occupy/liberate the city. So, are they already in town or not? The same yes/no tactics apply to Turkish forces in the North and to the advance of allied troops towards Baghdad. The pixelated camera shots from CNN do not help to clear the confusion.

This article of the BBC (Cutting through Iraq's 'fog of war' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2892159.stm) ) could explain the present confusion.


The millions of people around the world avidly following the latest news from the war in Iraq could be forgiven for becoming slightly confused in recent days.

On several occasions, reports of apparently significant developments have later had to be withdrawn or downgraded - causing great embarrassment to journalists and military officials alike.

The military is aware of the power of the media
But are these classic examples of the confusion due to the "fog of war". Or of news management, not to say propaganda?


The most blatant propaganda so far was the news of Iraki welcoming allied troops with cheers and tearing Saddam's portraits in Basra. The BBC admits the disinformation :


Then, military officials reported a "civilian uprising against Saddam Hussein" in Iraq's second city of Basra, hard evidence of which has yet to materialise.

I've had the feeling that this war has been a show since the beginning. The States are notorious for their excellence in the entertainment industry. But can we take seriously anything coming from Hollywood obsessed journalists ?


Martin Bell blames the recent confusion on the "excitability" of editors of rolling television news stations.

They are under pressure to give the television war junkies something fresh to keep them hooked.

Al-Jazeera showed a peaceful Basra while others talked of an uprising

Some "report rumour as fact", Mr Bell says.
...
The Iraq war is a media war like never before.


Just read the headlines on Yahoo News to be convinced. One says "Blair says 'sure of allies victory' ", then a few minutes later "Blair warns war will be tough and difficult".

Sometimes I wonder if stock brokers have a brain for politics. I read : "Stocks rise on prediction of allied victory", and next to that : "British 'nowhere near' capturing Basra", then "Troops prepare for fierce street fights" and "US forced to eat words of quick victory".

Cimmerianbloke
03-10-11, 04:31
My favourite website to browse when I have 5 minutes to kill;
http://english.pravda.ru/

It's a mix of anti-western propaganda, The Onion (humour is not intended in the first place though) and ex-KGB brainwashing misinformation. For those who thought Russia is no more a threat, you're on for a wake-up call...

LeBrok
03-10-11, 05:34
I guess, nothing interesting or worth criticism happens in Russia, as usual. All news is about the rotten west, with US in prime spot. To bad that in internet form Russians can't use it as toilet paper anymore, lol.

Anton, Bear's den
10-10-11, 17:12
I guess, nothing interesting or worth criticism happens in Russia, as usual. All news is about the rotten west, with US in prime spot. To bad that in internet form Russians can't use it as toilet paper anymore, lol.

LOL I hope you don't wanna say that Washington post, New York times, Fox News or CNN is any better? Watched several times, what a terrible propaganda!
While the American print media are full of russophobia, manipulation of the facts, arrogant chauvinistic nonsense of republican party etc...

Typical CNN brainwashing


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B5xgtwu9yw

Typical American newspaper propaganda
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-aron-russia-putin-20111003,0,474901.story

Disclosure
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2011/10/03/did-leon-aron-of-the-american-enterprise-institute-just-invent-a-statistic-on-russian-emigration/

Anton, Bear's den
10-10-11, 17:16
My favourite website to browse when I have 5 minutes to kill;
http://english.pravda.ru/

It's a mix of anti-western propaganda, The Onion (humour is not intended in the first place though) and ex-KGB brainwashing misinformation. For those who thought Russia is no more a threat, you're on for a wake-up call...

Pravda is communist newspaper, of course they will write shit about west. If you wanna to know truth: watch american propaganda and after watch Russia Today TV channel. The truth will be in the middle.

Cimmerianbloke
10-10-11, 23:41
I blame it on the new generation of journalists and their lack of litterary education. 25 years ago, you would have read pieces of propaganda without even noticing it. I must confess I highly enjoy that kind of garbage. I am however concerned about some good papers (Le Monde and El País) losing their edge and falling into partisanship in the last few years. Hard to find reliable sources nowadays...

Antigone
11-10-11, 06:29
I blame it on the new generation of journalists and their lack of litterary education. 25 years ago, you would have read pieces of propaganda without even noticing it. I must confess I highly enjoy that kind of garbage. I am however concerned about some good papers (Le Monde and El País) losing their edge and falling into partisanship in the last few years. Hard to find reliable sources nowadays...

My thinking also. Many jounalists today are a disgrace and seem to rely on Twitter as their main source for news. All media is now biased in some way but, unlike in the past, at least today we are able to access a variety of domestic and foreign publications and broadcasts. The real story (or as close as one can get) will invariably lie somewhere in between 2 or 3 different news coverages.

Anton, Bear's den
12-10-11, 20:53
In Russia right now media headlines:
1. Sanctioned "Day of Anger" finished by arrests
2. Putin will go to elections, "not as a self-promoted"
3. Amnesty International calls for arrest Bush during his visit to Canada
4. Audi RS5 Cabriolet was caught by photographers the first time
5. The level of traffic jams in Moscow reached a maximum
6. Stars are asked to give up gifts of Kadyrov
7. About road repair will warn by SMS
8. Khodorkovsky in prison engaged in scientific work
9. Ex-prime minister of Ukraine Yulia Tymoshenko got 7 years of jail
10. Russian football team went through the qualifying round of Euro 2012
11. High levels of radiation registered in Tokyo
12. Iran accused the U.S. of waging the war
13. "Al Qaeda" has confirmed the death of "the successor to bin Laden"
14. Russia's economy is still very vulnerable, Putin said.
15. "United Russia" announced about participation of Gryzlov in the debates before the elections, earlier he avoided them.
...