Philosophy What is time?

Sorry folks - I'm not really responsible for this one - my son is ...!

- But it got me to grinning and thinking so much (with both eyes crossed !) ... I just had to share it if I may ... I do have his permission ...

I received it in an email from him a coupla days ago - and while I agree it's a little "off the wall" - it does pose a few questions.

(And, BTW - he doesn't smoke anything...!)

So ... 'Sensuikan-San Junior' is quoted thus:

[I]Sensuikan-San Junior[/I] said:

Something I was musing on today which might interest you...


I was thinking about the nature of Time today while mentally dissecting
the universe (a result of those Zen-like moments one can sometimes
achieve during periods of monotonous labour), and had what could best be
described as a sort of ?erevelation?f on the subject. Bear with me here...

I think I?fve posed the idea before that Time is not a linear force as
many people seem to subscribe. I?fm no quantum physicist by any stretch
(I didn't get past Grade 11 Science!), but nevertheless I do have what
could best be described as a strong instinctual 'sense of the universe'
from just generally observing the world that Time is more likely a
lateral force. This is something I just ?efeel?f. Conventional theory
would have us believe that Time is a very linear entity which can be
concisely measured in terms of seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks,
months, years?cright through to centuries, and even millennia. I
disagree. I think these concepts are nothing more than the very basic,
elemental attempts by human beings to make mathematical, easily-defined
and easily-catalogued sense of something which – quite frankly – to
paraphrase Carl Sagan is ultimately ?ein defiance of easy explanation?f.

When I think of Time I think of water. I think of the way in which it
ebbs and flows. The way in which it heaves and surges with the tides. I
think Time – as a lateral force – works in much the same manner. I think
that sometimes an hour is not necessarily an hour as defined by the
clock. Nor is a year a year. A century a century. And so on, and so on,
and so on. The observeable ebbs and flows of Time prevent this from
being possible. You know what I mean I think; by example, some hours are
– despite what any clock says – no way in hell as long or short as other
?ehours?f. Y'know? This is an observeable fact that more than a few people
I've spoken to on the subject will agree to - yourself included. I don?ft
know how one would go about measuring such phenomena, but I do believe
it exists.

Anyways, that said?cas I thought deeper on the issue I also started
considering some of the observeable and demonstrable factors that
surround life and mortality. It is an observeable, universal FACT that
all life, be it animal, plant, or bacterial in nature must consume other
life in order to exist. It?fs all about the transference and consumption
of energy. Living energy. Animals kill and consume other animals for
their energy. Bacteria consume both animal and plant life for their
energy. Plants consume energy taken from water and the soil which in
essence is nothing more than decomposed animal and plant matter itself.
We all must consume.

Then the frightening thought hit me?cwhy should Time be any different?

What if we?fve been looking at Time all wrong? What if Time is more than
jsut some intangible 'force', but rather a living being? An entity unto
itself? An ebbing, flowing, LIVING entity that heaves and surges in
accordance with the level of energy it has managed to sustain from other
living things!?! A sentient being which, while lacking physical form as
we understand it nevertheless must consume life, and energy in order to
remain in existence!?!

I began thinking about what it means to age. Eventually we all must die.
If we aren?ft killed and eaten in the classic sense, by say a lion , or a
tiger, or a shark, then the bacteria (disease) will get us in much the
same manner, or we will simply fall prey to our own folly (car crashes,
murder, war, dumb-assery, etc...) and still end up ultimately being
consumed by, and transferring our energy to, the insects and the plants.

But what if none of those things happen? Even if raised within a sterile
bubble free of disease or other predators, and with ample nourishment,
we still age. We still die. Despite the fact that, by all logical
definition we should be able to continue on for as long as we ourselves
continue to consume others and regenerate our own energy?cwe still die
when by all rights we should remain in existence interminably. But we
don?ft. No matter what we do we still age and die. As does all life.

I think this is a result of being consumed by Time. ?eEaten?f by Time.
Aging and dying in it?fs most elemental sense is not something we just
naturally ?edo?f. I think it?fs something that is ?edone to us?f. By Time.

How? I honestly don?ft know. How can something so intangible consume and
'digest' living energy!?! I can't even begin to explain that aspect of
it. Why? That?fs easy: it?fs something Time just instinctually does to all
living things in order to ensure it?fs own continued existence. I think
it?fs a natural survival urge hardwired into Time just as surely as the
urge to strike at anything that moves is hardwired into an adder. Taken
in that context, Time can be seen as interchangeable with Existence, and
further – as some choose to define such things – ?eGod?f. This is a hard
thing to come to terms with! The concept I?fm proposing here effectually
shatters all pre-existing paradigms – both religious, philosophical, and
scientific - that we currently hold in regards to ?ethe meanings of life?f
and ?ethe keys to existence?f. If what I propose is true?cthe
existentialists had it right all along?cit?fs all nothing more than a
meaningless cycle of circular consumption which in turn feeds off of
itself. We all live and die so that everything else may do the same. All
I?fm proposing is that ultimately Time is at the top of the universal
food chain. Apparently at death, on average a body will lose 21 grams in
weight. Why? Some say this is the soul leaving the body. I say hogwash.
I think it's energy being extracted by Time for sustenance.

I mean?cJesus?cwhat if Time – that intangible tangible?cthat sentient
nothingness - set the universe into motion for the sole purpose of
having a maintainable and sustainable food-source at it?fs disposal!?!

The next question then is can this be fought? Can one combat Time? In
other words, is immortality (or something very like it) possible?

We already know that lifespan has a lot to do with metabolism and
biorhythm. That?fs why the majority of the great hunting animals –
despite their superior physical vitality – live such short lives. A wolf
or a lion won?ft see 30 years because of the physical toll their
incredibly high metabolisms (their biorhythmic speed?cor perhaps energy
barometers Time monitors?)) take on their lives (perhaps Time somehow
feeding off of their high energy levels???). Conversely a sea tortoise
with it?fs much slower metabolism can live for over 150 years (perhaps
it?fs low energy levels keeping it below Time?fs predatory radar???). We
are somewhere in between.

It occurred to me that perhaps somewhere in the ether there is an
equation for immortality. Some sort of mathematical juxtaposition
between mass, energy, biorhythmic speed, and the ebbs and flows of Time.
Some sort of map for navigating that intangible slipstream wherein one
could perhaps stay one step ahead of Time and it?fs predatory,
energy-consuming radar. After all, if Time is also governed by the same
observeable laws of nature as the rest of us then one has to wonder what
it?fs weaknesses are? What happens to Time if it suddenly stops feeding?
Can it die? What happens if it ever does?

What do you think? Is this ridiculous flight of fancy on my part? Is it
eccentric daydreaming run amok? Train-of-thought ravings with no real
meaning or purpose? Or have I actually hit upon a way of perceiving
things that contains a grain of truth?

Thoughts?

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My mind still boggles at his final concept ... but......does anybody have any thoughts?????

...and don't ask too many questions - I'm still not sure where he's going with this either!

?W????

Sensuikan San Junior said:

Conventional theory would have us believe that Time is a very linear entity which can be concisely measured in terms of seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years?cright through to centuries, and even millennia.

Click to expand...

I would rather say that 'layman's theory' sees it this way.

Sensuikan San Junior said:

I think that sometimes an hour is not necessarily an hour as defined by the clock. Nor is a year a year. A century a century. And so on, and so on, and so on. The observeable ebbs and flows of Time prevent this from being possible. You know what I mean I think; by example, some hours are – despite what any clock says – no way in hell as long or short as other ?ehours?f. Y'know? This is an observeable fact that more than a few people I've spoken to on the subject will agree to - yourself included. I don?ft know how one would go about measuring such phenomena, but I do believe it exists.

Click to expand...

Einstein taught us that this is in fact how time is - it's relative. It speeds up and slows down depending on the prevailing conditions - called time dilation. When you fly in a plane, time slows down (imperceptibly to us) due to the high speed. It's even possible to measure it using atomic clocks. In 1971 it was proven that time slows down by exactly the amount predicted by Einstein's theory of relativity. Here is a good article on the Elasticity of Time

I think the rest of Junior's thoughts are interesting, but like you I haven't quite digested it yet (no pun intended!). It would make a good Sci-Fi story though. It makes me think of Eater by Gregory Benford, although that was about a black hole having us for snacks.

"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." Albert Einstein

Time, in my opinion, is something that is a constant. Always there, and always changing (even if it does go unoticed by us). These changes are not discernable by us without careful analyzation. I also believe that time is what it is percieved to be by those who are there to percieve it. If we see something that we judge to be too long or short, we do what we can to change it. But who are we to judge what is long and what short? We can't judge time, only time can judge itself.

P.S. The whole time eating our lives thing would make a good movie/book.

:souka: Time is irrelevant. Time is something man has created.

(And, BTW - he doesn't smoke anything...!)

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No seriously, what is he lighting up? :souka:

Lol, from what i gather he thought of all this doing a job?....man, ive been a KITCHEN PORTER!, and even i havnt thought about stuff that deep...

The relativity of time is strongly felt by us humans, depending on what we are experiencing. I suppose that everybody has noticed that "time flies" (no pun intended on the slowing doan of time when flying a plane) when we are enjoying ourselves or feel very absorbed by what we are doing (e.g. writing posts on JREF). But time seem desperately long when we are bored, anxious, in pain or ill at ease.

Outside our minds though, time is linear/constant in a "closed and stable" environment (e.g. sitting somewhere on planet Earth). As Tsuyoiko said, time is disformed by speed, because it is directly related to it. High speed means "less time" - not just from one point to another, but in the absolute. We could say that speed (or kinetic energy) is inversely proportional to time.

In other words, the more kinetic energy an object gains, and the smaller the time. The more static energy (or "mass") an object gains, and the bigger the factor time becomes. In other words, once energy stops moving, time appears very fast, like an instant (without change, one second and a million year are about the same thing). When energy is highly excited and moves at very high speed, time appears very slow. For us humans, time actually feel just the opposite, because our mind and environment does not stop. We compare the speed of the events to our environment, so when things are happening slower than we expect in our mind, it feels longer.

That's pretty difficult to explain. I think our vocabulary is not well suited to explain about time (words have to broad, and sometimes contradictive meanings).

ok im going to get back to this 1. i have to get ready for work. another interesting fact came to mind i wanted to bring up from another forum. about it really made you think about what actualy is faster then the speed of light. anywho a little off subject.

You guys should visit the Relic community forums, the majority of regulars are taking or have taken some degree or another, now THATS an in-depth discussion about universal matters.

http://forums.relicnews.com/

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did you know there 2 different times, the standard greenwich one, and atomic which correlates with the earth. You see the earth is slowing down and with it like this, time will not run in parr to the worlds rotation, eventually when the sun is above you(known as noon), it will state on your watch as 1:00pm.
But this time known as atomic time is one which follows the system and will be what is most accurate.

Carlson said:

what actualy is faster then the speed of light.

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Some things that can travel faster than the speed of light:

• A shadow
• The spot made by a laser on the surface of the moon
• An electromagnetic pulse from a lightning flash hitting the atmosphere
• The beam of light from a pulsar sweeping across a dust cloud

but none of these can transmit information.

jack2 said:

did you know there 2 different times, the standard greenwich one, and atomic which correlates with the earth. You see the earth is slowing down and with it like this, time will not run in parr to the worlds rotation, eventually when the sun is above you(known as noon), it will state on your watch as 1:00pm.
But this time known as atomic time is one which follows the system and will be what is most accurate.

Click to expand...

You know how we have leap years? Well because of what you describe here, we also have 'leap seconds'. The last one was added in 1998, and the next one will be added at the end of this year.

Time is just a word, just like a table and a chair are.

Just somebody got bored, or was to busy, so he decided to give a name to it.

I am too busy, I dont have ..... for that.
I am bored, what shall I do this.......

Why do they call Time, Time, and not Table :?

.. but serieus.

Time is something that we will probably never can understand, as it is to big for our small minds.

well i couldnt find the post nor did i try to look hard enough..

Basicaly it went like this

Gravity

The rays of the sun take how many min to reach the earth... but if the sun was to explode we would feel it right away...

Interesting thoughts from Junior.

I believe Time is a man-made concept and only exists in the present. Think about it, you go to sleep and wake up 8 hrs later. Does it feel like 8 hrs? No. It feels like you fell asleep and then a second later you are awake. It doesn't matter if you sleep for 8 hrs or 2 hrs. It still feels like only a second when you awake.

I am 50 yrs old, but to me I do not feel I have been alive that long. Sure I have memories of 45 years ago, but they feel like they occured yesterday or just moments ago. Time only exists when I think about, or as Maciamo and Tsuyoiko said, when we are bored and have nothing to do. Then time seems to drag on.

I have to drive 7 1/2 hrs a night. When I was young, 7 1/2 hrs seemed like a damn long time, now it seems like nothing. A piece of cake. The days and weeks fly by. Is it because I enjoy it? What if I hated it? Would that same 7 1/2 hrs seem like an eternity? Probably so, because when I worked in an office, playing office politics, kissing ass, and having my ass kissed all day, I came to despise what I what was doing and the days seemed to drag on. 8 hrs seemed like an eternity.

When I am on the computer enjoying a game or surfing the internet time seems to not exist. 3 or 4 hrs on the computer seems like a mere few minutes. Is it because I enjoy it so much that I lose all concept of time?

It is being said in some circles that time is speeding up and things are happening at a quicker pace these days and if you really think about it, it seems like it really is. But is it really? I mean, here we are, November 11, 2005 and it seems like just yesterday that it was the turn of the century. Where did the time go?

When I was a kid it seemed like forever until Christmas would come or that the school year would end. Now it seems like Christmas is coming like once a month. I want it to slow down! What is really strange is that even kids today are commenting on how quickly time is flying. Could it be that time is really speeding up and that events are happening at a quicker and quicker pace? Or could it be that, since man is living longer, it just seems that way? Or could it be that we are just so busy these days, what with our jobs, the internet, satellite and cable TV, cell phones, I-pods, etc. that we really don't have the "time" anymore to just sit back and relax and "enjoy the moment?"

I don't have an answer, but I tend believe that time, like life, is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer you get to the end, the faster it goes. :wave:

Time is just a word, just like a table and a chair are.

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hmmm...
I hope the computer doesn't find out
It might fall to the ground
The chair I'm sitting on seems to be stout
But maybe it's just sound.

I don't have an answer, but I tend believe that time, like life, is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer you get to the end, the faster it goes.

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I agree with this. The older I get the faster that time seems to slip thru my fingers.

I don't think it's time that speeds up as much as it's the demand for our time. Works always seem to demand more time. The entertainment industry always come sith something new for us to spend our time on, whether it beneficial or not. How many other things are there that pull us in different directions.

Time was something somebody came up with so they would know when to do do something. Like meeting a friend to go catch dinner. It went downhill from there. Use to be after you got home from work you sat around with the family since there wasn't anything else to do. Now we never have enough time because everybody wants a piece of it.

nurizeko said:

No seriously, what is he lighting up? :souka:

Lol, from what i gather he thought of all this doing a job?....man, ive been a KITCHEN PORTER!, and even i havnt thought about stuff that deep...

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LOL ! .... seriously, he doesn't even smoke tobacco ... like I do.

I confess ... I tend to agree with you on the second point! Yes, he does work, as an asistant manager in a warehouse for an international company ... God knows what he must do all day!

... but he did laugh, yesterday, when I recounted your post!

What you have to know is that this all came from the guy who, as a young boy once asked me .... "What would water look like if it wasn't clear - but plaid? Can you imagine waves breaking ....?"

I literally couldn't even imagine it!

?W????

Time is a force in the universe. It is the 4th dimension of the universe.

Time does not really 'flow'.

Time is relative. According to Einsteins General Theory of Relativity. This states that the speed of light (C), is constant. This means that it does not change. However, time is *NOT* constant. It is relative, despite common sense telling us otherwise. Time Dilation tells us that the faster you go relative to an outside observer that is stationary, relative to the stationary oberserver (The person who is not moving watching you) time slows down for the person who is moving

Normally, the slight change is nearly infinsimial. However, there is an experiment where 2 precise clocks were set. one stationary, the other one in a super sonic jet around the world. Both clocks were EXACT. The one on the plane was slightly less than the one on the ground.

Same goes for astronauts. Some astronauts were a micro-second aged less than the people on earth. This is because how fast they went relative to people on earth, speed is related to time.

However, if you were to approach the speed of light at significant speeds (Getting perhaps, 1/4 the speed of C), speed travels at 186,000 miles per second, you would be significantly younger than those on earth in 5 years. You'd only age 5 years, where people on earth would be 50 to 100 years older. Therefore, you'd 'travel in time'.

This is why time is relative.

Einsteins famous equation stands for the following:
Energy = Mass * the speed of light(C)^2 . (squared)

This is to say you could take a little bit of mass of an object and convert it into enourmous energy.

It also says energy and mass are equivlent. Therefore, not only can you take matter and convert it into energy, but apparently you can take energy and converter it into matter..
Hope this helps.

Some things that can travel faster than the speed of light:
...The spot made by a laser on the surface of the moon...
...but none of these can transmit information

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Perhaps not, but think of the way a laser burns a CD or DVD with 1s and 0s. A laser pulse could be sent out to send a 1 or 0 to a receiving machine. then in theory, it could send information

-Rudel- said:

Perhaps not, but think of the way a laser burns a CD or DVD with 1s and 0s. A laser pulse could be sent out to send a 1 or 0 to a receiving machine. then in theory, it could send information

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But the information wouldn't be faster than light. The information is in the laser beam which does not move faster. The spot on the moon appears to move faster but the photons don't.