Ottoman trivia

Maciamo

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Whether the Ottoman/Turks are more European or Middle Eastern is open to debate. I have decided to put them in the European section. Some of the trivia below will support that pretence.

- The Turks came from Central Asia and were related to the Mongols.

- From the 13th to the 15th century, the Turks advanced into Anatolia and into the Balkans, mixing little by little with the local Byzantine population of mixed European descent (Celtic, Gothic, Greek, Latin and Slavic).

- In 1299, Osman I declared the independence of the Ottoman state. In 1324, he took the major Byzantine city of Bursa and made it the Ottoman capital.

- The Janissaries were an elite corp that formed the Ottoman sultan's private guards. Founded in 1330, new recruits were taken among Slavic Christian children, because of Ottoman suspicions towards non-Turkish Muslims at the time. Some of those European janissaries rose to become vizier (minister) and one even grand vizier in the Ottoman state.

- In 1453, Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror laid siege on Constantinople, the last stronghold of Byzantine power in the region. Thanks to one of the earliest use of cannons in the region, he destroyed the city's legendary 30-m high walls, seize it and made it its new capital. The Hagia Sofia, built in the 6th century by Eastern Roman Emperor Justinian as the largest Christian church in the world, became a mosque.

- In the first half of the 16th century, Europe had 4 great monarchs : King Henry VIII of England & Ireland, King Francis I of France, Emperor Charles V of Habsburg (Spain, Netherlands, Germany, Austria) and Sultan Suleyman I (Ottoman Empire). All were probably the greatest monarchs their country had known, and the greatest to remain for several centuries.

- Roxelana (nee Aleksandra Lisowska), a Slavic woman born in present-day Ukraine, was first slave, then concubine, then wife of Suleyman the Magnificient. Her son with the Sultan inherited the throne as Sultan Selim II, thus infusing European blood into the Imperial Ottoman dynasty.

- French was the language of the Ottoman court, nobility and bourgeoisie in the 19th century. Many French words have passed into modern Turkish language as a result.
 
Re

Hi this is my first post here.

Turks European or not European? This is the question?c
As I know them, they are truly half way between Europe and Middle East and normally I would just accept them for the way they are but their entry in the EU is subject to debate, in the EU parliament, and it is not an easy task.

EU has a strong Christian background in the culture though Religion is not an active part of the politic of any of the EU country, whereas T. still have some problems to detach from this and reach for a better balance/

Second point: Kurdish ethnics.. and I stop here as last time I mentioned it my colleague was really upset?c
 
I think that Ottoman Turks are more middle-east than Europeans.
I say tis with regard to their Geographic situationq attitudes and religioun.
 
FAM said:
I think that Ottoman Turks are more middle-east than Europeans.
I say tis with regard to their Geographic situationq attitudes and religioun.

As a Bulgarian, how do you consider Muslim Bulgarian ? I haven't been to Bulgaria, but I don't think there is much difference between a Turk and a Mulsim Bulgarian apart from language. The modern borders of Bulgaria and Turkey were only made in 1908 (or maybe 1878). Before that it was the same country. Many Turks in Western Turkey look very European. Many have blue eyes and some even blond hair. Most of them don't care much about religion and wear European clothes.

Can you see more difference when crossing the border from Bulgaria to Turkey than when going to Romania or Greece ?
 
Maciamo said:
As a Bulgarian, how do you consider Muslim Bulgarian ? I haven't been to Bulgaria, but I don't think there is much difference between a Turk and a Mulsim Bulgarian apart from language. The modern borders of Bulgaria and Turkey were only made in 1908 (or maybe 1878). Before that it was the same country. Many Turks in Western Turkey look very European. Many have blue eyes and some even blond hair. Most of them don't care much about religion and wear European clothes.

Can you see more difference when crossing the border from Bulgaria to Turkey than when going to Romania or Greece ?

As to the Muslim Bulgarians, a lot of them were converted to Islam against their will.(mainly during 16-17th century). In Bulgaria there is a special word for them-"pomak" which means "dirty".
The differences b/n Europeans and Turks are mainly in different attitudes and ideas about life. That's my opinion.
Otherwise, I'm agree with you that they wear European clothes and a lot of them look like Europeans.
 
about pomaks: Poms or pomaks are balkanian gypsies(Rom or Roman in rest europe, Dom in India), mostly speaking turkish in balkany, were never subjected to genocide in Bulgaria.

Bulgar Turks: an ancient turkic tribe formed an empire around river volga(river of bolgars) and a state in modern bulgaria(danube bolgars).

Bulgaian muslims, similar where ever else are composed of ethnic turkic(inc tatars) and slavonic muslims, all are turkophone, most of them fled from oppression to turkey, starting from 1950's. Today they form more than 2 millions in Turkey and almost %10 in Bulgaria.(Naim Suleymanoglu, Halil Mutlu are most notable bulgarian muslims, Naim is absolutely turkic, while Halil resembles pomak, Bursa is the major destination of bulgarian muslims, majority of them are turkic with some slavonic traits)

Due to nomadic nature of turkics it is hard to determine a physical common trait, blue eyes are not so rare among turkics but green and hazel are dominant), brown hair color is dominant unlike in Mediterranean people, although old chinese texts refer them having yellow hair(perhaps Nordic turks), also noted that Osman I and Orhan had blonde hair/ beard.

A racial view for turks is inappropriate, there are many families with one children having blond hair and another with mediterranean traits(very dark curly hair dark skin), also turkey has been last destination to many people from all over the old world, majority of these are from caucasus(i belong this one) and balkany, who are assimilated into the new turkish (not turkic) id. and also the majority of anatolian people as well as greeks and armenians who were converted to islam call themselves turks (as bosnians today call themselves bosnian turks although they dont speak turkish).

the majority of ME people in turkey are Kurds and a noticable arab population live among kurdish society. they are easily spotted from either western turkish people ot turkics of southeast, by either skin color or hair color.

if someone wants to study turic antropologies, best way is closed communities like karaims in lithuania and poland due to their judaist practises they were isolated from both christians muslims and pagans.
 
Correction:

1.Hagia Sophia is no more a Mosque. After proclamation of Secular Republic in 1923 It has become a museum.

2.French was not the only language in Ottoman courts. Because the Ottoman Emp. was a multi-national empire, court language was consisted of more than 40 languages. Ottoman language was basically a mixture of Turkish, Persian, Arabic, French, Italian, Croatian and Greek.
 
As a person living here I must tell you that Turkish community is the least homogeneous in the world. You can't tell the difference between the Turks living in the western Anatolia and the Greeks; Laz people in the Black Sea region looks like Georgians and Russians; South-Eastern people look like Persians and Arabs.

Major ethnic groups in TR are:

Hellenic
Turkic (Turkmen, Kazakh, Azeri, Kyrgyz, Tatar, Ozbek, Tajik)
Slavic (Russian, Ukranian, Serbian, Bosnian, Macedonian, Albanian,Croatian)
Georgian
Armenian
Jewish
Laz
Kurdish
Arabic
Chirkass
Abhaz
Chechen
Germanic

And the word "Turkish" doesn't mean that you are ethnically Turkoman but covers all above nationalities just like the term "American" For instance my mother is ethnically from Georgia and my father is Turkoman and we are Turkish.

An interesting note: In Turkish gene pole the largest group above all is Slavic!!
 
As to the Muslim Bulgarians, a lot of them were converted to Islam against their will.(mainly during 16-17th century). In Bulgaria there is a special word for them-"pomak" which means "dirty".
The differences b/n Europeans and Turks are mainly in different attitudes and ideas about life. That's my opinion.
Otherwise, I'm agree with you that they wear European clothes and a lot of them look like Europeans.


I think in our region, nationality makes no sense at all. According to historians Bulgarians are originally Turkic. Because one the first settlers in the region were Avar Huns. Even the name "Bulgar" comes from Turkish which means "Ten Tribes" But eventually people in the region got blended with Slavic and Hellenic people.

Of course it makes no sense to say that Bulgarians are Turks, as well as to say that they are not.
 
I think in our region, nationality makes no sense at all. According to historians Bulgarians are originally Turkic. Because one the first settlers in the region were Avar Huns. Even the name "Bulgar" comes from Turkish which means "Ten Tribes" But eventually people in the region got blended with Slavic and Hellenic people.

Of course it makes no sense to say that Bulgarians are Turks, as well as to say that they are not.


Actually that is not entirely true.There are disputes about the origin of the bulgarians.Besades becouse of the problematic co-existing in the otoman empire most bulgarians will take the statement "Bulgarians are Turks" as an insult.
 
I have never had the impression that Bulgarians are Turkish. A minority may well be but most Bulgarians are similar to other Balkan and Southeastern Mediterranean peoples.
 
The majority of Bulgarian immigrands I see here in Greece look completely slavic to me. Western Turks (Constantinople, Aegean coastline etc) do look more European than those living deeper in Turkey, and some could pass for Greeks, but don't forget that those areas used to be Greek/Roman (Byzantine empire) so it's normal. A great admixture between Ottoman Turks and Greeks took place in those regions and despite the Greek genocide after World War 1 Greek elements can still be found there.
 
The European mindset against Turks and its roots

The majority of Bulgarian immigrands I see here in Greece look completely slavic to me. Western Turks (Constantinople, Aegean coastline etc) do look more European than those living deeper in Turkey, and some could pass for Greeks, but don't forget that those areas used to be Greek/Roman (Byzantine empire) so it's normal. A great admixture between Ottoman Turks and Greeks took place in those regions and despite the Greek genocide after World War 1 Greek elements can still be found there.


Kalimera Marianne, Ti kanis? I know the Greco-Turkic struggle has a long history and I wouldn't like to get myself in such an irrational discussion, for I'm one of those people who believe in the brotherhood between the Greek and Turkish communities. But could you please enlighten me about this "Greek Genocide" ?
Because the only massacre in this region after the 1st World War I know was commited by the Greek invasion army with the support of Brits, French and Italians starting with the invasion of Izmir (Smyrna). And it was due to Winston Churchill's pro-Greek policy which was based on using Greece as a tool to expand and protect British imperial interests in the region. That's one of the main features of British foreign policy. Just like the way they did in Cyprus: EOKA was initially formed against British mandate. Then Brits formed a radical group which commited killings in some Turkish villages under the disguise of EOKA. On the other hand they sponsored some Turkish Cypriot militia against EOKA and creating another Greco-Turkish confrontation thus drawing attention away from themselves . I'm not suggesting that either side is right or wrong. I honestly say that we are proud to be the descendants of the Ottoman Empire as well as Byzantine Empire. We shared the same culture, climate, food and many other values and coexisted symbiotically throughout the centuries. As feeling in such a fashion, I feel insulted by your words implying that Turks destroyed Greek heritage in Anatolia. On the contrary, we tried our best (against all odds and unlucky events) to preserve that cultural treasure. You can still go visit the oldest Greek settlements in Anatolia such as Ephesus, Milette, Pamfilia, Ionia, Thermessos, Sparta, Sumena in Trabizond, Troy even Antiochos and Alexandria. We preserve the house of Virgin Mary in a good shape, where each and every year thıousands of Christians visit for pilgrimage. The oldest Greek Church is in Turkiye (not turkey btw). And Hagia Sophia is no more a mosque but a museum since the times of Ataturk, the founding father of modern Turkish Republic, who interestingly was of Greek origin from Thessaloniki.
My aim is not starting another useless debate where a myriad voices strive to be heard above the din caused by some ultra-nationalist "hawks" on both sides. But it's not fair to say that the reason that major Greek elements disappeared in the region caused by Turkish chovenism. There are less Greek elements because of the population exchange act between the two countries. If what you are saying is true, how could you explain that such a ruthless state let the existence of the Great Patriarch of Greek Orthodoxy in Fener, Istanbul today?
I'm also aware that there is no point exposing such ideas as a Turk, for noone tends to listen to you. Because you are the "Turk the terrible". This perception of Turks engraved in European minds was initially introduced by Holy Roman Church during the medieval ages to create the idea of a "common enemy" with an attempt to unite warring kingdoms of Europe in the post-Roman era. By doing this Church cinically claimed hegemony over the European states thus gaining a vantage ground on the political platform. Announcing a holy war against Turks, they easily convinced ordinary farmers to be recruited as soldiers for a so-called "holy" purpose. In reality Ottoman Empire never intended to destroy Christanism. Moreover, Mehmet the Conqueror of Constantinople proclaimed himself as the Roman Emperor (just like the Alaric the Goth did in Rome) and the protector of Orthodox Christianism! He himself -like many other Sultans- was born from a Christian mother. Of course many brute acts like plundering or rape was committed during those times. But remember that even the worse crimes were commited against Christians by other Christians in Europe. These acts were standard appliance of the law of war during those times, which are unacceptable today. To obtain a more profound information about this Anti-Turkish propaganda, I recommend you to read "Lustful Turk" by Andrew Wheatcroft. You'll see how far the rabbit hole goes in the average european's mind about this perception. Most europeans were and are born with this pre-conditioned state of mind sealed deep in their genes. As a result of this conspiracy, people in the western hemisphere, having planted prejudices against the Turkish part of the story, tend not to listen to what we say and never believe in the Turkish claims. The preset mindset is "Turks are not right"
So can you imagine how hard to express your feelings and thoughts as a Turkish person for it's meaningless to try to convince (some of) you people who already judged us as a whole by default: "Found Guilty!"
 
Despite what people in Turkey might think, most Greeks of the last generations have nothing against Turkish people and the Turkish nation. Only the old ones who lost their families in the wars between the 2 countries express a dislike. I can't ignore historical facts though, which in no way affect the way I feel about the modern Turkish people since they have nothing to do with what happened in the past. I know for fact for example that my best friend's great grandmother, who is still alive and has many stories to tell, lost her family in the invasion of Smyrni by Turks and she managed to escape by boarding the French ships that were there. Of course if you would ask my best friend right now what she feels about Turks you would hear no bad words. Smyrni was ruled by a Greek governor at that time and after 5 years the people of Smyrni would decide if they would remain a Greek territory or not. Of course no matter how much we discuss about this we will never agree cause in your schools they teach u a different history than us about these times, so I see no point in debating about it.

No one can deny that the last years Turkey is trying it's best to show interest in the Byzantine/Greek heritage of the country but would that really be the case if Turkey wasn't applying for a place in EU? Because before that there were no signs of interest...
Hagia Sofia's wall paintings were destroyed when Constantinople was conquered by the Ottomans and only recently did the restorations started becoming serious. It was only after Constantinople was announced as European Capital of Culture 2010 that some extremely beautiful wall paintings were restored. Don't get me wrong but it seems as your government is trying a bit too hard only when it is time to show that they care about what was once Greek to establish a positive atmosphere for the EU application. If the government wanted to really show that they respect the Greek element in the area, Hagia Sofia wouldn't be a museum, but a church.
Of course that doesn't mean that people feel the same way. I really want to believe, and hope it is true, that, especially the people who live in Western Turkey, feel close to Greeks due to all those years of the Byzantine empire.

I really hope the flooding in Constantinople stops and no other people get hurt or die. I'm pretty sure that if the Turkish government needs Greece's help in the area for the rescue of people we will send it as we did in the earthquake of 1999.
 
Terrible flooding there. Hope things improve soon.
 
Maciamo said:
the janissaries were an elite corp that formed the ottoman sultan's private guards. Founded in 1330, new recruits were taken among slavic christian children, because of ottoman suspicions towards non-turkish muslims at the time. Some of those european janissaries rose to become vizier (minister) and one even grand vizier in the ottoman state.

not only slavic, also indigenious albanians and vlachians, as a matter of fact most of them were albanians, and the ones that were made viziers, grand viziers and pashas were albanians.


Maciamo said:
roxelana (nee aleksandra lisowska), a slavic woman born in present-day ukraine, was first slave, then concubine, then wife of suleyman the magnificient. Her son with the sultan inherited the throne as sultan selim ii, thus infusing european blood into the imperial ottoman dynasty.

thats not the only time, ottoman dynasty has continuesly intermarried with christian noble families, such as with serb royalty in balkans who suported the advance of ottoman armies into albanian lands.
 
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Kivanch K said:
Major ethnic groups in TR are:

Hellenic
Turkic (Turkmen, Kazakh, Azeri, Kyrgyz, Tatar, Ozbek, Tajik)
Slavic (Russian, Ukranian, Serbian, Bosnian, Macedonian, Albanian,Croatian)
Georgian
Armenian
Jewish
Laz
Kurdish
Arabic
Chirkass
Abhaz
Chechen
Germanic

NOT TRUE, NEARLY 10% OF THE POPULATION OF TURKEY (apart from kurdish part of the country) IS ALBANIAN ORIGINALY.
 
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Marianne said:
Western Turks (Constantinople, Aegean coastline etc) do look more European than those living deeper in Turkey, and some could pass for Greeks.

I AM SORRY, YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG. COULD PASS FOR GREEKS? THERE ARE MORE WHITE, EUROPEAN LOOKING PEOPLE IN WESTERN TURKEY (specially ones that are originaly albanians, serbs and slavs in general) THEN IN ALL OF GREECE. AND THIS CAN BE EASILY PROVEN BY EVERYONE WHO HAS BEEN IN THOSE COUNTRIES. IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, THE PEOPLE IN GREECE ITSELF WHO ARE MOSTLY EUROPEAN LOOKING ARE THE ALBANIANS (who constitute more then 10% of the population) ARVANITES ( who are also albanians in ethnicity, but have been helenised due to the long time in greece) VLACHIANS AND SLAVS. GREEKS ARE MOSTLY DARK, MIDDLE EASTERN LOOKING IN THEIR FEATURES, BUT ALSO IN PHISICAL CHARACTERISTICS.
SO WE SHOULD NOT USE THE COLOR OF THE SKIN AS A DEFINITION FOR WHAT IS EUROPEAN. LETS DEFINE IT FIRST. I THINK THAT THE BEST DEFINITION WE CAN GIVE IS GEOGRAPHICAL, AND AS FAR AS GEOGRAFY GOES THEN TURKEY IS BETWEEN EUROPE AND ASSIA. THAT'S IT.
 
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Major ethnic groups in TR are:

Hellenic
Turkic (Turkmen, Kazakh, Azeri, Kyrgyz, Tatar, Ozbek, Tajik)
Slavic (Russian, Ukranian, Serbian, Bosnian, Macedonian, Albanian,Croatian)
Georgian
Armenian
Jewish
Laz
Kurdish
Arabic
Chirkass
Abhaz
Chechen
Germanic

NOT TRUE, NEARLY 10% OF THE POPULATION OF TURKEY (apart from kurdish part of the country) IS ALBANIAN ORIGINALY.

This is bullshit. I suppose you are Albanian to claim such a thing. Any proof to support this ? Anyway, DNA tests have clearly shown that the Albanians belong massively to haplogroup E-V13 and J2b, both of which are rare in Turkey (although other subclades of E and J2 are common). Albanians, like Greeks and other Balkanic people, have a great proportion of the ancestry that originally came from the Levant and Anatolia during the early Neolithic. That's why Greece and Albania were the first regions of Europe with agriculture.
 
Neither ethnically nor Culturally , Turks are not European.
Now, if it's only an economic and political question...that's not in our hands..
 

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