Philosophy Code of the Strong Atheist

Maciamo

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Who is an Atheist ?

- Someone who does not believe in the existence of god or deities. God is defined a supernatural and almighty power that created the universe. It does not matter whether this god is personal, impersonal. Deities are supernatural creatures, human-like or not, immortal or not, that make the object of human worship. They include the "spirits of nature" of Animist religions and deified human beings.

- Atheists typically do not believe in the soul or life after death. Yet they may, and usually do believe in the eternity of all matter/energy in the universe, and therefore the eternity of the matter that compose us as human beings. The natural recycling of matter/energy to create new life beings is completely compatible with Atheism. Some call it the cycle of reincarnation, although not bound to a Karma or soul.

Difference between Strong Atheists and Weak Atheists :

- A Strong Atheist denies the possibility of the existence of any god or deity on grounds of reason, logics and/or philosophical thinking.

- A Weak Atheist does not believe or worship any god or deity, but does not hold any particular opinion regarding their existence. They are devoid of religious beliefs.

The Weak Atheist could be a person who has never been exposed to the concept of god/deity and religion, or a person that has so little interest in the question that they did not bother to wonder about their beliefs. Weak Atheists are potential targets for religious conversions - hence the appellation "weak" referring to their beliefs.

Difference between Atheists, Pantheists and Deists :

- Pantheists only differ from Atheists in that they are spiritual. They consider the whole universe as god, and each individual as part of god. Atheists just call it Universe or Nature. Like Atheists, Pantheists may believe in the eternity of the universe and reincarnation by natural recycling of the matter/energy. They typically do not believe in heaven and/or hell, as typical Pantheist god are impersonal and do not judge humans.

- Deists, like Atheists, do not follow any religion or worship any god. However, they do believe in an impersonal god that created the universe and does not interfere in human affairs. Deists may believe in the soul and life after death, although not in a system of reward separated in heaven and hell, as the Deist god does not judge humans. However, like Atheists, Deists may also believe in the eternity of the universe and reincarnation by natural recycling of the matter/energy.

Code of conduct of the Strong Atheist :

You shall refrain from :

  1. worshipping any god or deity.
  2. financing, subsidizing or donating to any religious institution*.
  3. wearing any religious symbols (e.g. a cross-shaped pendant).
  4. using religious exclamations such as "Oh my god !" (these can be replaced by alternatives like "Oh my goodness" without hampering the language).
  5. participating in religious ceremonies or rites, including religious weddings and funerals.
  6. wishing to be buried/cremated in a religious fashion (e.g. in grounds belonging to a church, mosque or temple; in a tomb displaying religious symbols; having religious funerals).

Exceptions can be made in life threatening events due to the religious fanaticism of other humans.

*(2) Historical religious buildings can be subsidised as national/world heritage, but only if they so not belong to religious institutions anymore.

*(5) Festivals with no obvious religious implications (e.g. carnival) can be exempted.
 
OH! My goodness!

.... We've just become a religion! :banghead: .... With an established church ? A creed and the beginnings of a scripture?:confused:

... and Maciamo is our high priest?:biggrin:

Can I be an archbishop .... or do I have to be investigated first .... ? :rolleyes:

?W????
 
Maciamo said:
Code of conduct of the Strong Atheist :

You shall refrain from :

  1. worshipping any god or deity.
  2. financing, subsidizing or donating to any religious institution*.
  3. wearing any religious symbols (e.g. a cross-shaped pendant).
  4. using religious exclamations such as "Oh my god !" (these can be replaced by alternatives like "Oh my goodness" without hampering the language).
  5. participating in religious ceremonies or rites, including religious weddings and funerals.
  6. wishing to be buried/cremated in a religious fashion (e.g. in grounds belonging to a church, mosque or temple; in a tomb displaying religious symbols; having religious funerals).

Exceptions can be made in life threatening events due to the religious fanaticism of other humans.
Where do you come up with these things?

In reverse order:

If a strong atheist wishes to be buried in a church, mosque or temple so he or she can be buried with his or her family, then what?

If a strong atheist attends a friend's religious wedding because it means a lot to said friend, then what?

Saying that a strong atheist should refrain from saying things like, "Oh my god!" is akin to saying that feminists should refrain from saying "human", "humanitarianism", etc because of the inclusion of "man".

Why can't a strong atheist wear a religious symbol purely for fashion purposes?

If a strong atheist wishes to donate to a religious or semi-religious institution to further humanitarian work, where is the problem? It's like saying a fundamentalist Christian cannot donate to secular institutions.

I think that being a strong atheist pretty assures one of not worshipping any deity even without a "code".
 
Sensuikan San said:
.... We've just become a religion! :banghead: .... With an established church ? A creed and the beginnings of a scripture?:confused:

Not at all. These are just a code, like the Code of the Warrior (Bushido), inculcating some basic values and the proper way to behave if one claims to be a true atheist, or even truly non-religious (even as a Deist or Pantheist).
 
Mikawa Ossan said:
If a strong atheist wishes to be buried in a church, mosque or temple so he or she can be buried with his or her family, then what?

I would never want to be buried with my family if it meant breaching these rules. I have explained this in this thread (and mean it).

If a strong atheist attends a friend's religious wedding because it means a lot to said friend, then what?

I only had one irrevocable condition to my wife to get married : no religious wedding, even with a fake priest in a fake chapel in a Japanese hotel. I would never have got married (or stayed) with someone who would not have accepted that. Therefore, I also don't go to my relatives or friends' religious wedding (well, I am not opposed to going to the party after that :p).

Saying that a strong atheist should refrain from saying things like, "Oh my god!" is akin to saying that feminists should refrain from saying "human", "humanitarianism", etc because of the inclusion of "man".

:? That's plain stupid. There is "man" in "woman" too ! And in "command", "demand", "mandatory" and "talisman". It doesn't take a linguist to know that none of these words include the meaning of "maleness".

The Japanese never exclaim "Oh kami-sama !", so why should there be such an expression among Atheist Westerners ? In fact, such expression tend to vary across languages and even countries (the exclamation "Jesus !", for instance, does not exist in French, and is less common in Britain than in the US). French people are more secular than, say Americans, and this is also reflected in their daily language. It is mostly old people who use religion-related exclamations.

Why can't a strong atheist wear a religious symbol purely for fashion purposes?

Doesn't fashion have any meaning to you ? Why do clothes vary across religious groups, cultures and even generations ? Because they mean something. I don't wear a wedding ring at all because that is a religious (probably Christian) tradition. I may understand that a Weak Atheist (someone who doesn't care about such things as religion and philosophy) may not care or even think about the meaning of such religious symbols. But for a Strong Atheist, who knows the connection of religion to these symbols, it is unacceptable to wear them. But I do not oblige my wife not to wear one, as she is a Weak Atheist.

If a strong atheist wishes to donate to a religious or semi-religious institution to further humanitarian work, where is the problem? It's like saying a fundamentalist Christian cannot donate to secular institutions.

There are plenty of non-religious ("neutral") humanitarian institutions, like those of the United Nations. If you are a Strong Atheist and want to donate to humanitarian institutions, then choose the right ones. One problem with people like Mother Theresa or Christian missionaries in developing countries, is that their work is not totally free and benevolent. Their ultimate purpose is to convert people to Christianity, by helping them and showing how "good and charitable people" Christians are (as opposed to others, so they are formenting negative views against non Christians, even indirectly). Most of these missionaries are Catholic, and the more converts they get, the richer the Vatican growths. You have no idea how prenicious and hypocritical those missionaries really are (or at least the people who brainwashed them in the first place). Charities are often all about money (no wonder so much money "disappears" in the hands of the managers of such charities).
 
Mikawa Ossan said:
Where do you come up with these things?

In reverse order:

If a strong atheist wishes to be buried in a church, mosque or temple so he or she can be buried with his or her family, then what?

If a strong atheist attends a friend's religious wedding because it means a lot to said friend, then what?

Saying that a strong atheist should refrain from saying things like, "Oh my god!" is akin to saying that feminists should refrain from saying "human", "humanitarianism", etc because of the inclusion of "man".

Why can't a strong atheist wear a religious symbol purely for fashion purposes?

If a strong atheist wishes to donate to a religious or semi-religious institution to further humanitarian work, where is the problem? It's like saying a fundamentalist Christian cannot donate to secular institutions.

I think that being a strong atheist pretty assures one of not worshipping any deity even without a "code".

In more serious vein -I must say that I agree with you there Mikawa Ossan!

In response to the (perhaps rhetorical...) questions you pose:

To "1" : My own feeling is that I would probably leave wishes that I would not wish my remains to be buried, scattered, blown or kicked into "hallowed ground" - it would be, in my mind, an insult to more religious folks who did not agree with me. But, of course, I wouldn't be in a position of final control .... !

To "2" : I have attended many such ceremonies! It is quite possible to attend a service without participating. How many Protestants have attended Catholic weddings or funerals? Jewish weddings? A few (deeply religious) friends even came to my own (non-religious) civil ceremony. As far as I'm aware ... it did not damn them! (But ... I dunno! ... looking at one or two of 'em, now ...... I dunno!)

To "3" : I say "Oh my God!" all the time! Very effective - and much more polite than "Holy 5hit!

To "4" : I must confess - I try to avoid crosses - for "religious" reasons. I also try to avoid pentangles, crescents, hakenkreuz ..... heck! ... I never wear jewellery anyway!

To "5" : I sometimes do give to the Salvation Army. I don't have a problem if I believe the money is going to a proper cause. Whoever collects it doesn't matter to me.

To "6" : Exactly!

Maciamo said:
Not at all. These are just a code, like the Code of the Warrior (Bushido), inculcating some basic values and the proper way to behave if one claims to be a true atheist, or even truly non-religious (even as a Deist or Pantheist).

I know ... I was pulling your leg!:wavey:

.... However ... once you start putting this stuff down in writing ... you do run the risk of creating a very fine "dividing line" ....?

?W????
 
Sensuikan San said:
How many Protestants have attended Catholic weddings or funerals? Jewish weddings?

They all believe in (the same) god, don't they ? What's the problem with that ? They may only have different practices, but similar beliefs that humans should be united by god. Don't forget that the priest clearly mentions that he proclaims the bride and groom married in the name of god and by the will of god. How could an Atheist accept that ? They then ask if anybody has an objection. As someone attending, I would be lying to myself and others to say that I did not object, as it is just ludicrous to me that people be united by the will or in the name of something that does not exist. Therefore, I would not recognise the validity of that marriage, especially that true Christians think that the laws of god prevail on the laws of humans (so the civil marriage at the town hall is null and void in the heart of true Christians, as the one in church is the only one that counts).

A few (deeply religious) friends even came to my own (non-religious) civil ceremony. As far as I'm aware ... it did not damn them! (But ... I dunno! ... looking at one or two of 'em, now ...... I dunno!)

There are many things religious peope do in everyday life that have no religious significance. Relgious people do non-religious and religious things. Attending is not a problem for them as it is not their own marriage. Religious people anyway have to live with the dilema of the laws of god vs the laws of the government (spiritual vs temporal power), and the dilema of faith vs scientific facts (e.g. the world was not created in 7 days, and they do not drink Christ's blood by normal wine with no supernatural properties in church). I guess that religous people don't have any problem accepting other kind of ceremonies as they are fundamentally hypocritical, self-deceiving and live a life of lies.

Atheists only do and accept non-religious laws, facts and ceremonies.

To "3" : I say "Oh my God!" all the time! Very effective - and much more polite than "Holy 5hit!

What about "holy hell" ? Anyway, "holy" refers to a religious concept. It doesn't mean anything to me, as I am a true Atheist.

.... However ... once you start putting this stuff down in writing ... you do run the risk of creating a very fine "dividing line" ....?

What do you mean by "dividing line" ? Between whom ? Between atheists ?
 
Maciamo said:
The Japanese never exclaim "Oh kami-sama !", so why should there be such an expression among Atheist Westerners ? In fact, such expression tend to vary across languages and even countries (the exclamation "Jesus !", for instance, does not exist in French, and is less common in Britain than in the US). French people are more secular than, say Americans, and this is also reflected in their daily language. It is mostly old people who use religion-related exclamations.

Sorry, Maciamo - but with regard to this quote from your post - just how can you entertain the fact that the "pop-up" under your "rep-points" declares ...

"Maciamo is an awe-inspiring God" ...... ? :clap:



Sorry, mon vieux! I just had to laugh at that one! :beer:

Unconscious ambition?

?W????
 
Maciamo said:
The participants were cooking in a giant "nabe" (casserole) of 5000 litres (6.10m of diametre), for reasons that only the gods can comprehend.
Is saying, "Oh my god!" bad, but this is OK?

My problem is that you are arbitrarily trying to impose your ideas about what a strong atheist should be like on other people. Why should your ideas about "proper" behavior for strong atheists be any more valid than mine or anyone else's?
 
Sensuikan San said:
Sorry, Maciamo - but with regard to this quote from your post - just how can you entertain the fact that the "pop-up" under your "rep-points" declares ...

"Maciamo is an awe-inspiring God" ...... ? :clap:

Sorry, mon vieux! I just had to laugh at that one! :beer:

Unconscious ambition?

ジョン

Haha, good one ! :D This was obviously intended as a joke. Well I hope nobody believes that I really am an awe-inspiring god. I would be the first surprised. :bikkuri:

Note that I do not mind using the word "god" in itself, for example to discuss about religion or philosophy. In fact, I may well have written that word more than any other people on this forum ! :eek:kashii: What's more, the reputation description changes with the current points (so anybody can get this "title", and they change will time anyway).

I object to expression such as "Oh my god", because it insinuates that the person believes in one god (that is not themselves, shall I mention, otherwise they'd say "Oh me !" :p ). My example was maybe not well chosen. What about expressions like "Jesus !" (which some non-Christans may have adapted to "Geez!" behind the back of Christians ;) ), or old Belgian women saying "Sainte Marie mere de Dieu !" (Holy Mary mother of God !), which clearly implies that not only they are Christians, but also Catholic. There is no reason using such expressions when one can say "Oh goodness !" or whatever less refined words which the forum won't let me write (the French equivalents of "OMG" or "Jesus !" are "putain", "bordel", "merdre"* or a combination of them :D ).

* "whore, brothel, crap"
 
Mikawa Ossan said:
Is saying, "Oh my god!" bad, but this is OK?

My problem is that you are arbitrarily trying to impose your ideas about what a strong atheist should be like on other people. Why should your ideas about "proper" behavior for strong atheists be any more valid than mine or anyone else's?

Same reply as for Sensuikan above. Using the word "god" is a derisory manner ("reasons that only the gods can comprehend" means "that doesn't make sense"), or to discuss religion is fine. Claiming that you have a god ("Oh my god") is illogical for an atheist. I could exclaim "Oh your god!" in the presence of a religious person though (as a joke, of course). :p
 
Last edited:
Look at this folks! Just for once - you can see that the Atheists have soul! We're starting to debate among ourselves! Watch and see how it's done - without "cut 'n paste quotes ... without arguing in circles, and without invoking a "third party"! Here goes .....


Maciamo said:
They all believe in (the same) god, don't they ? What's the problem with that ? They may only have different practices, but similar beliefs that humans should be united by god. Don't forget that the priest clearly mentions that he proclaims the bride and groom married in the name of god and by the will of god. How could an Atheist accept that ? They then ask if anybody has an objection. As someone attending, I would be lying to myself and others to say that I did not object, as it is just ludicrous to me that people be united by the will or in the name of something that does not exist. Therefore, I would not recognise the validity of that marriage, especially that true Christians think that the laws of god prevail on the laws of humans (so the civil marriage at the town hall is null and void in the heart of true Christians, as the one in church is the only one that counts).

Surely, you would have to ask the question as to wether or not they were actually in love, would you not? Or that there might be other impeding issues of a serious nature, like bigamy or incest ... or I dunno...

Just disagreeing with a silly ceremony, that you say yourself, is of no consequence ... just .... is of no consequence! In your eyes and mine ... they are still married (they will have undoubtedly had the civil/town ceremony and be married at law). So ... what's the sweat? We just don't recognise or even believe, the secular marriage.

Maciamo said:
There are many things religious peope do in everyday life that have no religious significance. Relgious people do non-religious and religious things. Attending is not a problem for them as it is not their own marriage. Religious people anyway have to live with the dilema of the laws of god vs the laws of the government (spiritual vs temporal power), and the dilema of faith vs scientific facts (e.g. the world was not created in 7 days, and they do not drink Christ's blood by normal wine with no supernatural properties in church).

Agreed. So ... if it's not a problem for them ... why should similiar action be a problem for me?


Maciamo said:
Atheists only do and accept non-religious laws, facts and ceremonies.

Agreed.


Maciamo said:
What about "holy hell" ? Anyway, "holy" refers to a religious concept. It doesn't mean anything to me, as I am a true atheist.

It means nothing to me either. So why should it bother me or anybody else if I utter it?


Maciamo said:
What do you mean by "dividing line" ? Between whom ? Between atheists ?

Ah! Good question!

As an atheist, one of the things that irritates ... enrages me about organised religion is the concept of converting.

I want to be my own person, misguided or not. One of the great beauties and freedoms of atheism, surely, is the freedom to be your own self ... with values and opinions that are truly your own.

If there is to be a "code" or "creed" - who is to write it? Whose values should we espouse? Mine? Yours? The "Super-atheist's"?

That would make someone a "God" or a "Disciple" or "Prophet", would it not?

That would start to turn "Atheism" ... into a "Religion" ... would it not ...?

That would be the dividing line which would make our own argument redundant, would it not?

Or would it prove what we have all been saying all along? Religion is man-made!


?W????
 
I consider myself a strong atheist, but I wouldn't stop saying "oh my god" because of that. its just a saying to me and I hold no value in what it's supposed to mean or where it came from.

I also have no problem in participating in religious rites such as someone's wedding or burial. It makes no difference to me, so if someone else thinks this is important and that I should join in, why should I selfishly refuse that on the grounds that it's religious. If religion is a fairytale (which I consider it to be) then it's not really important enough for me to get hated by my family/friends over.
 
Only four of us?

Where's everybody else?

Sorry!

ジョン
 
Sensuikan San said:
Surely, you would have to ask the question as to wether or not they were actually in love, would you not?

In my eyes, marriage is not really necessary. My wife wanted it (because Japanese women are still quite traditional in this regard), but otherwise we would not have got married. I didn't have any religious ceremony and don't wear a ring; people can get divorced in 5min in Japan, and there is also no fiscal advantage in Japan; so, what is really marriage but a piece of paper and a party ? What would be the difference with a couple living together and having a party to celebrate their long-lasting relationship, apart from the paperwork ? Marriage has no power to stop people cheating. This is a problem that only the couple can deal with, married or not (hence the absurdity of the wedding ring).

So ... what's the sweat? We just don't recognise or even believe, the secular marriage.

Maybe to make it clear that I do not approve of their religion, and disagree on something much deeper than just a ceremony...

Agreed. So ... if it's not a problem for them ... why should similiar action be a problem for me?

Because for me Atheism represent the values of reasons, logics, and not lying to oneself. Religious people are expert at deceiving themselves and others, so it's fine for them. But when I disagree with someone or something, I say it - especially when it's related to philosophy.

It means nothing to me either. So why should it bother me or anybody else if I utter it?
...
I want to be my own person, misguided or not. One of the great beauties and freedoms of atheism, surely, is the freedom to be your own self ... with values and opinions that are truly your own.

If there is to be a "code" or "creed" - who is to write it? Whose values should we espouse? Mine? Yours? The "Super-atheist's"?

That would make someone a "God" or a "Disciple" or "Prophet", would it not?

That would start to turn "Atheism" ... into a "Religion" ... would it not ...?

I intended this "code" more as a guideline, or "voluntary code of conduct", not a compulsory law or (religious) commandment. It's not a religion because it claims to be man-made from the start (religions typically claim divine illumination or intervention). Because it is so succinct, flexible and voluntary (rather than rigid and absolute), and recognises no place of worship, no deity and no phophet, you can hardly compare it to a religion. If you do, then any moral rule, or even company rule or state law is a religion as well. Actually, laws and company rules are less flexible (the can be amended though) and not voluntary.
 
You must be very lonely in life. I genuinely feel sorry for you. I'm sorry, I have nothing more to say on this topic.
 
Maciamo said:
I would never want to be buried with my family if it meant breaching these rules.

Maciamo you are a fundamentalist atheist! ;)
 
I'm another strong atheist. You might have gathered that from other threads that I have posted on. With respect to some points:
wearing any religious symbols (e.g. a cross-shaped pendant).
Like Sensuikan san I am not a waerer of jewelry, but I find that most people who wear religious symbols of some kind do have leanings towards that particular religion. I found out someone was a wiccan by the pentacle she was wearing. The St. Christopher pendant or the cross worn by people will usually indicate that, if not very religious, will have some faith in God.
using religious exclamations such as "Oh my god !" (these can be replaced by alternatives like "Oh my goodness" without hampering the language).
I have used these. They mean nothing to me. They have entered the modern English language the way most words or saying do. How many people say "touch wood" or avoid walking under ladders. Both have their roots in Christian supersition, but very few people know how they are related to it. "Touch wood" has become a phrase without any religous link to it. English is a highly dynamic language. What may have one meaning one day will change, especially slang phrases.
participating in religious ceremonies or rites, including religious weddings and funerals.
I go to wedding and funerals out of respect of friends that have invited me, or a family members. I do not partake in the proceeding, I just like to be there. I will not pray or sing or give donations or any other else that is normally associated with the religion. I attended the rembrance day service recently held in our towns park for the war dead. Why? Because it show respect to the people who died for my country, not because it was a religious cermony. I will not pray or sing at these gatherings, but respect is needed in the atheist camp towards other people feelings. We go on about the lack of respect relgions have towards each other. As an atheist I feel that we can rise above these petty squabbles. If not we are as bad as the religions we rally against.
wishing to be buried/cremated in a religious fashion (e.g. in grounds belonging to a church, mosque or temple; in a tomb displaying religious symbols; having religious funerals).
I have mentioned that I do not wish a religious cermony when I finally shuffle off the mortal coil, but I will be dead. Any religious cermony used will not bother me. It will not be my problem. I do like the idea of a natural buriel though. Put me in the ground and plant a tree on top of me. In a thousand yaers time my remains will be part of a forest and no-one will know where I lie, same as everyone else.
Sensuikan san said:
Only four of us?

Where's everybody else?

Sorry!

?W????
I'm here. If you have these type of coversations at night (UK time) then you must wait for the rest of us to wake up.
 
Sensuikan San said:
Only four of us?

Where's everybody else?

Sorry!

ジョン
Well I'm not Mycernius' friend anymore, 'cos he beat me to most of what I was going to say - including the fact I was asleep when you guys were having this heated debate! :D

When I first came to this forum I had certain convictions about Nature that I still have, but back then I wasn't sure whether my concept of Nature could be equated with belief in a god. Now I know it can't, largely thanks to some discussions with Maciamo :thankyou: So like everyone else so far, I'm a strong atheist.

However, one of the main reasons I came away from religion was deontology. I just don't believe in rules. I am a weak utilitarian - I believe in assessing each situation on its own merits, though not necessarily with happiness as the goal.

Also, although my philosophy, my reason and my principles are very important to me, so are other people's feelings. So when it comes to any cross-over between my life and religion, I take into account my principles, the feelings of everyone involved and I also consider consequences.

So in reference to Maciamo's code, here are my feelings:

worshipping any god or deity

Obviously I will always choose to refrain from this, otherwise I wouldn't be an atheist

financing, subsidizing or donating to any religious institution

I would weigh up the value of their work against their religious convictions. The main charity I support is Oxfam, because although it has Christian roots it does great work that does not include missionary work. (Plus I like their fair trade tea:blush:) I do not support The Salvation Army, as they are missionaries, and I feel that their charity work is only a means to their religious proselytising (wow, I really struggled to spell that!).

wearing any religious symbols (e.g. a cross-shaped pendant)

I wear crosses (which predate Christianity) occasionally, and I have some 'religious' ornaments in the house, like a stained glass pentacle. I see these as mythological symbols and if I like the way they look that's enough. I would never wear a crucifix though, or have one in the house. They are exclusively Christian symbols, and anyway, I find that image inappropriate for public display.

using religious exclamations such as "Oh my god !" (these can be replaced by alternatives like "Oh my goodness" without hampering the language)

As Mycernius says, they're just figures of speech, like superstitious sayings. There are probably words in many languages that you can't avoid using , but which have a religious etymology. I'll think of one eventually.

participating in religious ceremonies or rites, including religious weddings and funerals.

Now this is the one I feel most strongly about. I had a civil wedding because I don't believe in getting married in church unless you regularly attend church. I also could not usually participate in a religious ceremony, as I could not lie about my most fundamental beliefs. But as Sen-san has so rightly pointed out, there is a difference between participating and merely attending. And as I have said, weighing up others' feelings and any consequences is also important, so I do attend such ceremonies. Most recently I attended my neice's Christening. I did not join in with the hymns and prayers, and the sermon made me very uncomfortable, but I endured it for the sake of family.

Four-and-a-half years ago I had a more difficult dilemma at the Christening of my other neice. My sister-in-law asked me to be godmother. I accepted, but it made me more ill than I have ever been in my life - including being referred to the hospital for tests. I had no wish to say things I vehemently do not believe, but I thought I could not avoid doing so if I accepted. But I am not close to my in-laws, and have never discussed my convictions with them - they don't know I'm an atheist. It seemed a generous gesture of my sister-in-law to think of me, and I didn't want to seem ungrateful. Also, they are very difficult people to get along with, and it was almost certain that if I refused it would have serious repercussions on our already fragile relationship. So I accepted, because on balance it seemed to lead to the most favourable outcome. Still, on the day I was in a state, which of course I had to hide. But when it came to the moment of truth, I was supposed to recite some (apologies) crap in unison with the other two godparents. Luckily no-one noticed that I didn't join in.

wishing to be buried/cremated in a religious fashion (e.g. in grounds belonging to a church, mosque or temple; in a tomb displaying religious symbols; having religious funerals).

I think my family is unofficially aware of my wishes - to be cremated in a secular ceremony then scattered on Glastonbury Tor. But if I go before my parents, I think they would want a religious ceremony. It is incredibly unusual not to have a religious cermony in the UK (probably one in a thousand, if that), and I would rather save my parents any embarrasment. After all, what will I know about it? But if, as seems likely, they go first, I will insist on a secular ceremony.
 
I have always been very open about my opinion on religion. Whenever any of my friends have had children they know not to ask me about being a godparent. They know I will say no. I believe that christenings should be left until the individual is old enough to make the discission themselves. I never had the choice and have told my parents it is the one thing that I am annoyed at. To their defence, when I was born it was the normal thing to do.
 

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