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Void
25-11-05, 17:11
... the only tool to conceive and to know the world?

Tsuyoiko
25-11-05, 17:13
Not necessarily - but it is the tool I prefer to use. :-) My Mum does her hair with a comb, I use a brush. I could never use a comb!

Duo
25-11-05, 17:22
There is always instinct... let's not underestimate that... the gut feeling can be as or even more powerful than intellect...

Void
25-11-05, 17:30
well, i`d say that instincs are more to preserve own life rather than to explore the world

Revenant
25-11-05, 17:32
Intellect is but a part of experiencing the world. There is a part that canot be understood by the intellect, nor explained by intellect either. They are truths that must be realized, some might say they are spiritual, but to put it another way. while sex isn't usual a spiritual experience (it can be in a few cases according to some), the joy and feeling of sex cannot be realized unless you actually experience. No amount of explanations will help on realize what it really is to make love. It would even seem more that way with some truths.

Those who know they face death often enjoy the smaller aspects of the world, the things in the here and now, but they would have never realized these were they not faced with an immenent death. I think there are such truths like that that cannot be realized by simple intellect.

Tsuyoiko
25-11-05, 18:02
while sex isn't usual a spiritual experience (it can be in a few cases according to some), the joy and feeling of sex cannot be realized unless you actually experience.This really made me think. But I wouldn't class the experience of sex as an experience of the world as such. It seems to me more like an experience of our emotions, although of course the emotional experience is triggered by a physical act.

To be clearer about my position: information about the world comes through my senses. There is an initial response, probably at least partly subconscious. Before I decide whether to trust that response, my 'logic circuits' kick in to find out if the response was reasonable. So I see a round metallic object in the sky. My initial response might be "UFO! Aliens are going to eat my brain!" But after consideration I realise it is more likely a helicopter with the sunlight reflecting off it in an unusual way. Now I'm not saying this process applies to every experience - just when I have to make a conscious decision about something that's really out there. So when I look at my husband and think "he's beautiful", I don't filter that perception through my intellect and say, "well actually, his nose is a little on the large side". I'm talking about understanding what does and does not exist - for that I'm always going to engage intellect.

Void
25-11-05, 18:33
There is always instinct... let's not underestimate that... the gut feeling can be as or even more powerful than intellect...

it stroke my mind that the gut feeling it`s probably what is called intuition. It belongs to instincts? :?
maybe curiosity, as instinct, can serve as ignition key and fire other process, but what about other instincts

PRIZMATIC
30-11-05, 04:56
...Intelligence,as well as intuition only derivative...
"John",chapters 9,10...

Clawn
30-11-05, 05:28
Intellect cannot subconsciously interfere with your emotions and instincts. You must get out and use the hand crank to start it up. Therefore, intellect cannot be the only tool to comprehend the world. I agree with Revenant on that point, the reason being, intellect is not always right, not many things are constantly correct. If intellect were the only tool, humans would be the only living creatures on the planet, because my cat can't really look at my computer and derive that it is a machine used for data storage and creation and not a light-up rock.

However, Revenant, I disagree with you on the point of some things must be experienced to fully comprehend, psysicall sensations, yes, but thoughts and ideals can be replicated if one simply knows the facts and puts themselves in a mindset identical to one who has had the ideal. For instance, I can understand a man wanting to appreciate all the small nicities in the world if he was doomed to death. The reason being that he now has a set limit of time left to enjoy those things, and all the things he once did, that seemed important in the long run, are now meaningless, because he must try to live life to the fullest before he has no chance left to experience such a joy. Suddenly, the stock market seems less interesting, but that trip to Paris with his family seems to need an immediate taking care of, no matter what the cost, why? because he won't be here to take them later.

PRIZMATIC
01-12-05, 02:26
P.S. These of the chapter(9,10) from "John"( the gospel according to St.John) once again emphasize "absurd" of our judgements(about intellect, intuition, etc...) - judgements "given birth blind"...
..."John",chapter 1,verses 9,10(!)...
"Ability to think - not an attribute of knowledge of True"...
"Who has learnt the nature of ideas to assert,what he(or she) really thinks?"...
"Also what there is a reality of thinking?"...:smoke:

Void
01-12-05, 18:31
If intellect were the only tool, humans would be the only living creatures on the planet, because my cat can't really look at my computer and derive that it is a machine used for data storage and creation and not a light-up rock.

i would disagree. Cat possess intellect. It may not have second signal-system, it may not have concept of abstract, it may not have language (in human meaning of this word, but it is intellectual creature



For instance, I can understand a man wanting to appreciate all the small
nicities in the world if he was doomed to death. The reason being that he now has a set limit of time left to enjoy those things, and all the things he once did, that seemed important in the long run, are now meaningless, because he must try to live life to the fullest before he has no chance left to experience such a joy. Suddenly, the stock market seems less interesting, but that trip to Paris with his family seems to need an immediate taking care of, no matter what the cost, why? because he won't be here to take them later.

You can understand, i.e. try to build logical explanation of his action but based on your experience. You hardly can feel what he feels, and it might be not intellect that drove him to make such decision. The intensity, the colour, the magnitude of emotions and feelings are his and his only

Void
01-12-05, 18:37
P.S. These of the chapter(9,10) from "John"( the gospel according to St.John) once again emphasize "absurd" of our judgements(about intellect, intuition, etc...) - judgements "given birth blind"...
..."John",chapter 1,verses 9,10(!)...
"Ability to think - not an attribute of knowledge of True"...
"Who has learnt the nature of ideas to assert,what he(or she) really thinks?"...
"Also what there is a reality of thinking?"...:smoke:

i`d say that is just one point of view based on concepts of Christian religion,
there also exist scientific, philosophical and profane ( :D )points. Either might be questionable

PRIZMATIC
02-12-05, 01:03
:blush: Actually it is "Zen"...the doctrine of the Christ only "a way for a theme"...:smoke:

Clawn
02-12-05, 03:46
You can understand, i.e. try to build logical explanation of his action but based on your experience. You hardly can feel what he feels, and it might be not intellect that drove him to make such decision. The intensity, the colour, the magnitude of emotions and feelings are his and his only

I will agree with you that the intensity of his emotions are his own, but with enough comprehension of the situation with which he is faced, you can emulate his emotions. Not exactly copy, but you can feel the general emotions the man is posessing. Its all a process of making your mind believe you are "in his shoes."

On the issue of non-sentient beings being intellectual, go by the definition and my own inferences, which are: Intellect includes the abilities to learn a standard language(be it spoken or code), to plan, to think abstractly, etc. A cat (as far as I know) has not yet learned a comprehendable language. So I see them not intellectual.

Void
02-12-05, 19:44
I will agree with you that the intensity of his emotions are his own, but with enough comprehension of the situation with which he is faced, you can emulate his emotions. Not exactly copy, but you can feel the general emotions the man is posessing. Its all a process of making your mind believe you are "in his shoes."

On the issue of non-sentient beings being intellectual, go by the definition and my own inferences, which are: Intellect includes the abilities to learn a standard language(be it spoken or code), to plan, to think abstractly, etc. A cat (as far as I know) has not yet learned a comprehendable language. So I see them not intellectual.
the key word is emulate, emulate what you(!) believe (s)he feels, but the fact is, that person can go through absolutely different emotions. And in spite of degree of compassion you might possess it is not even 50% exact reflection, thanks gods

definition of intellect includes at least two layers, second one deals with abstract concepts. Cat has a language, but its language has (not sure about the term in english .... sympractical ? is there such word?) character. And ceratinly cat can learn, reason and understand in some limited way, otherwise it wouldn`t be able to survive...
Kids brought up by animals in some cases can`t learn human language, they have not intellect also?

Void
02-12-05, 19:46
:blush: Actually it is "Zen"...the doctrine of the Christ only "a way for a theme"...:smoke:
as far as i know Zen doesn`t deny the intellect, it only says intellect has its own limits that`s why we shouldn`t rely onit always

PRIZMATIC
03-12-05, 02:24
Intellect - relative measurement of the certain set of ways of ability to live...And so this "set" - a product of some chance - and to perceive it as a reality,it is problematic enough...And such "relative" realities - multitude...:smoke:

Void
03-12-05, 14:56
Intellect - relative measurement of the certain set of ways of ability to live...And so this "set" - a product of some chance - and to perceive it as a reality,it is problematic enough...And such "relative" realities - multitude...:smoke:

there is no need to percieve the intellect "in general", in psychological spheres everything is individualized (so are the chances). You might speak in terms of given reality, given to you through your intellect, senses, emotions, feelings and smth else
But, yet there are general algorithms mind of every man follows (want it or not)

PRIZMATIC
04-12-05, 01:44
:smoke: I take "time-out":smoke:...