Philosophy Free Will vs Determinism

In short, I believe that Free Will, if it exists, is very limited, simply cause there is a lot of cause and effect even within the realm of the emotions. I'll elaborate more as the thread goes on, as a decent explanation of my theory eludes me now (it is there of course, just having trouble with articulation).

Yes, it could be said that there is much more than meets the eye in this matter. It is a very broad subject perhaps, but nonetheless an interesting one, and a very important one, in many ways.

I hope to drop by from time to time (I'll do my best to do so) and see what's going down. I just read on report the other day which proposed some brain studies recently done, do show some degree of motor ingaugement towards physical motion before the cortex areas for processing information (as in that needed to make a decision to act) were firing, implying that maybe some degree of action or brain process comes without processed (conscious, if you will) commands. Of course those timings are very, very small !!

I'll drop back by. :wave:

This sounds like a cliche, but I think free will is an illusion. There are so many constraints acting on us from conception that we are kidding ourselves to think we have free will. But I don't believe in complete determinism either. I think we have choices, but we choose one from a (very) limited number. I read somewhere that we can only attain freedom if we recognise that we don't really have free will.

What constrains our free will (some of these overlap)? Genes, upbringing, brain chemistry, intelligence, knowledge, character or personality, illness (physical or mental), responsibilities, finances, family and friends, geography ... ad infinitum.

Tsuyoiko said:

I read somewhere that we can only attain freedom if we recognise that we don't really have free will.

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I would completely agree. One cannot learn how to build muscle if one doesn't know the how the cause and effect of nutrition, muscle overload, and rest work. So can one not know how to control their decisions if one doesn't realize the cause and effect of the attachments, desires, pleasure-pain ratio based decisions, etc, etc.

What is Free Will? Just a Freedom of choice or freedom of conscious choice?
I`d agree that no one asked us to choose to be born and to be born with
particular set of genes and social environment (unless there exist some life
before life )
What means free? free from what? First of all how many of us free from
ourselves (in any meaning of this phrase)? From our own stupidity, laziness,
uncertainity, arrogance, excessive rationality and such?

What is to make a choice ? Isn`t it to realize one particular act among various possibilities ? Which one you bring to realization? the one which is given by fate? The one which will be generously spared to you by whatever constraint? Or is it the one brought to reality by your hard work?

You are free as long as you are able to
- put up with initial conditions,
- accept the history of your own mistakes without justifying them by various
constraints life might impose (they usually make much lesser part than effect
of one`s own efforts or lack ot them)
- be ready to face the responsibility brought by chosen action
- and be able to change your own attitude when you can`t change the situation

Void said:

and be able to change your own attitude when you can`t change the situation

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I think anyone who can do that is truly free. I can't do it yet. Although I'm not into the god bit, this makes sense:

Reinhold Niebuhr said:

God, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
the courage to change the things I can;
and the wisdom to know the difference.

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i`ve read that this:

God, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
the courage to change the things I can;
and the wisdom to know the difference.

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was said by some of ancient greeks, probably Aristotle :? but it doesn`t really matter - you don`t have to be divine being to understand this and act accordingly

On paper and intellectually, I am a Calvanist- completely believing in predestination/predetermination. But I function in my life as an Armenianist- total free will. I haven't found predestination all that functional- it seems to encourage fatalism, inaction or apathy. I continue to act as if I believe I have choices and that these choices matter.

Calvinism does have some messy implications, but I'm sure you know that.

Anyhow, determinism (out of the context of religion) doesn't mean one lacks choices, but that one is more aware of the forces at work within one's decision-making process. If one becomes more aware of these, then it is possible, with time, and intensely asked questions, to change the emotional charges attached to certain actions. It's not exactly an easy process though, and I have yet to intentionally succeed at it.

I have tried with quitting smoking, and it becomes easier each time I try to quit again. I'm still figuring out just what some of the triggers are though, what exactly makes me want to smoke.

sabro said:

On paper and intellectually, I am a Calvanist- completely believing in predestination/predetermination. But I function in my life as an Armenianist- total free will. I haven't found predestination all that functional- it seems to encourage fatalism, inaction or apathy. I continue to act as if I believe I have choices and that these choices matter.

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This reminds me of something. Logically, there is no way to prove that anything exists outside of your own mind. For all you know you might be the only being that exists. But to function we have to assume that other people exist, even though we can't prove it.

Revenant said:

Anyhow, determinism (out of the context of religion) doesn't mean one lacks choices, but that one is more aware of the forces at work within one's decision-making process. If one becomes more aware of these, then it is possible, with time, and intensely asked questions, to change the emotional charges attached to certain actions. It's not exactly an easy process though, and I have yet to intentionally succeed at it.

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It's a very hard process - but it does work, IMO. I have had some very, very limited success - and I think finding the right questions to ask is key. I suffer from panic attacks, but I have pretty much got them under control with this process - and the key question is 'what's the worst that can happen?'. Now I have to find another question to ask when the answer to that one is something bad! But I've had a lot more success than I got from medication, without the side effects (i.e. turning into a zombie).

actually, daterminism and freedom of choice are not separable. It is better to use dialectic approach, to comply with those two. Like science uses concept of wave-corpuscle dualism, for example

Void, you have lost me.

After thinking on a Christian's theory of free will, I feel that the perception that everyone has free will isn't actually fair. I do believe that everyone is searching for happiness, and that those who cause suffering, have unintentionally attached positive and negative emotions to the the incorrect actions.

As an easy example, my son is six, and not long ago, he thought that bylying, would he get out of pain. What he doesn't realize, and probably can't at the moment, is that he would cause himself, and others pain, in that others cannot trust him, and therefore, he cannot easily make close intimate relationships with others.

I see other people as the same. They have simply made incorrect connections between actions and happiness. I would absolutely say, that for the safety of others, that some need to have their freedoms taken away, but this is a reason why I do not find punishments out of anger, revenge, or even 'an eye for an eye' as fair or just.

I just think the perception of everyone having 'free will' can cause people to see others incompassionately, and makes it easier to demonize others for the reason that 'they could've chosen otherwise'.

not much to lose

you are talking about immature child, but adults pretty often aware of the cause-effect relations, they are just too lazy to give them a thought and trace them, or simply don`t care (even don`t care about others hoping that they will easily get away with what they are doing). It is oftena matter of respect, toward oneself, toward others, and even toward events (life, if you want to). And very often determinism is like an excuse to own weakness, rudeness and lack of care - like "oh, but how could i know!"

Revenant said:

I just think the perception of everyone having 'free will' can cause people to see others incompassionately, and makes it easier to demonize others for the reason that 'they could've chosen otherwise'.

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not neccessarily. The current condition of self-organized system (people are such) is very much dependant on the history of the system, and history is made out of choices ones made (see the pic i`ve posted in my first reply)
more likely free will means conscious choice, that`s why it is "free" and "will".
One must admit that (s)he also got one, and thus - makes mistakes as well... Demonize the other usually those who have lack of self-reflection

After I posted that, I realized that the objection you just made would probably be made (about my son being immature). Still, I disagree. People need emotional reasons to respect themselves, respect others, and respect events. I don't think anyone would deny themselves self-respect were they to actually feel that. This leads me to think that those who don't respect themselves have a wrong perception.

It is after all 'free will' that things like the death penalty are argued upon.

Where does motivation come from, the motivation that moves people to action? Is it not on positive and negative associations with actions. For example, I understand on one level that smoking isn't good, and yet I continue. But were I actually to connect real pain to smoking, I think it would be much easier to quit.

very well then, even getting connection between smoking and pain you won`t quit it if emotional reason would be stronger (like "i feel sooo gooood smoking") Respect is based more on rational reason that`s why those who can do nothing creative (don`t bring it to all material level though) are rarely respected

You can say "i respect one for this and that", but hardly "i love one for this and that", `cause love is more emotional

Void said:

very well then, even getting connection between smoking and pain you won`t quit it if emotional reason would be stronger (like "i feel sooo gooood smoking")

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I would complete agree. I believe we measure the percieved pain-pleasure ratio of each option, and choose the one that looks like it will bring the most happiness. I would need to have the pain outweigh the pleaure of smoking to be able to stay quit (I can quit for short periods of time).

Void said:

Respect is based more on rational reason that`s why those who can do nothing creative (don`t bring it to all material level though) are rarely respected

You can say "i respect on for this and that", but hardly "i love one for this and that", `cause love is more emotional

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Let me think on that while, just cause I've never thought even to make this distinction.

Revenant said:

I would complete agree. I believe we measure the percieved pain-pleasure ratio of each option, and choose the one that looks like it will bring the most happiness. I would need to have the pain outweigh the pleaure of smoking to be able to stay quit (I can quit for short periods of time).

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that`s what free will about - you are aware of the connection, but don`t want to believe (accept), and choose the other way (to keep smoking till the pain kicks your ass real hard) That`s weakness and lack of respect toward your own body (it is also you, why should it be neglected?)

" Have somehow asked the old master of the Zen about "Freedom of a Choice" and have heard in the answer: Any person is initially Free...,but only he() from parts "ligth" and parts of the "dark" world...,during the period limited for lives from a birth is created and to death it is necessary to live to him() and only it can choose from this..."

Revenant said:

After thinking on a Christian's theory of free will, I feel that the perception that everyone has free will isn't actually fair.

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I find myself questioning the notion of free will in Christianity, as well. The question is, if "God" is omniscient, and knows everything we will do throughout our lives, do we really have a choice in the matter? Aren't we just acting out the play?

Yes, you can choose to go left or right, BUT if someone or something already knows which way you will go, are you really making that decision?