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Mycernius
24-01-06, 22:35
recent news form the BBC:

Mother loses 'right to know' case
A mother has lost her court battle for a parent's "right to know" if girls are being advised on abortion.
Sue Axon, 51, of Baguley, Manchester, wanted the law changed to prevent girls under 16 getting confidential advice.
Mrs Axon said she regretted having an abortion 20 years ago that caused her "guilt, shame and depression".
But the High Court rejected a review of guidelines which state terminations do not need parents' consent and doctors should respect girls' confidentiality.
Mr Justice Silber, sitting in London, said Mrs Axon, or any other parent, had no right to know unless the child decided otherwise.
Forcing a girl to tell her parents "may lead her to make a decision that she later regrets or seek the assistance of an unofficial abortionist", he added.
But the judge also warned that abortions should not be made available if the young person lacked the maturity to understand all the advice they were given.
Mrs Axon, who has five children, also wanted parents to be told of advice or treatment in respect of sexually transmitted infections.
Her elder daughter, Joy, is pregnant and expecting a baby due on her 17th birthday on 25 March.
Her QC Philip Havers had told Mr Justice Silber she did not say that doctors could not carry out treatment without parents' consent but that she had the right to be notified.
Mrs Axon believes current guidelines "undermine" her role as a parent and infringe her parental rights under the European Convention on Human Rights.
UK's 'serious problem'
But Philip Sales, appearing for the health secretary, had told the judge her arguments had "absolutely no foundation in law".
At a hearing in November, he said the UK had "a very serious problem" with high teenage pregnancy rates - and confidentiality was a key component of government policies to reduce conception rates and improve sexual health.
After Monday's ruling Mrs Axon said: "I am obviously disappointed by the judgment of the court today.
"Having endured the trauma of abortion, I brought the case to ensure that medical professionals would not carry out an abortion on one of my daughters without first informing me.
"I could then discuss such a life-changing event with her and provide the support she would need."
She added that she had no regrets about bringing the proceedings but would not be seeking leave to appeal.
'Damaging advice'
"I hope these proceedings will help parents and children to recognise the trauma of abortion and to talk openly about sexual matters.
"It is only then that our children can be protected from potentially damaging advice offered by professionals who do not know them."
Public Health Minister Caroline Flint said the ruling confirmed the Department of Health's guidelines were in line with the law.
She said further guidance on how to handle cases of potential abuse and other risks of sexual activity causing "significant harm" would be published shortly.
The Family Planning Association, which had campaigned against Mrs Axon's appeal, applauded the judge's decision.
Chief Executive Anne Weyman said informing parents that girls were being given abortion advice would be a "disaster, leading to young people staying away from services and risking unplanned pregnancy or sexually transmitted infections".
Dr Beverly Malone, General Secretary of The Royal College of Nursing, said the judgement would give confidence to nurses and other healthcare professionals in providing confidential sexual health advice to young girls.
Anti abortion group The Pro Life Alliance said it was staggering a young girl could "end the life of another human being without her parents knowing anything about it."
How does this measure up to the rest of Europe? Do you think that its is right for a young girl to keep this from her parents?

Tsuyoiko
25-01-06, 12:43
I absolutely agree that a teenage girl should have the right to confidentiality. It keeps things simple and saves a lot of heartache for all parties.

Mike Cash
25-01-06, 14:05
But God forbid they should be allowed to take an aspirin at school without parental permission.....

Mike Cash
25-01-06, 14:07
I absolutely agree that a teenage girl should have the right to confidentiality. It keeps things simple and saves a lot of heartache for all parties.

Only if we assume the teenage girl has a hole where her humanity is supposed to be and will never in the future experience heartaches for having killed a child.

Do women who have had abortions never experience any regrets or guilt over it?

Ma Cherie
25-01-06, 22:32
Only if we assume the teenage girl has a hole where her humanity is supposed to be and will never in the future experience heartaches for having killed a child.
Do women who have had abortions never experience any regrets or guilt over it?


Well mikecash, you'll have to ask those women. I personally feel that if a woman ever experienced any guilt or regrets it's because someone tried to make her feel guilty. Why do some of these right wingers think that when a woman chooses to have an abortion, she doesn't think the whole thing through? Why would this be something not to think through? A teenage girl on the other hand may not think about this choice.

Revenant
25-01-06, 23:06
As to the actual thread Q, parental beatings and incestual rape would further complicate the whole issue. Were all parents loving, I would say the parents have full right to know.

I do not agree with you Ma Cherie. I don't think women only feel guilty when right-wingers try to make them feel so. I am for the most part secular liberal, but I would regret taking a human life, and I am sure I am not alone in this.

My pro-life leanings are of course colored by my personal experiences, in which myself, my bro, and my son could've all been prematurely terminated had things gone just a little differently. I cannot justify myself terminating a human life without reason that would stand up in all other situations, i.e. someone's life is endangered, or someone would live out their days in agonizing pain.

Mike Cash
26-01-06, 12:27
Well mikecash, you'll have to ask those women. I personally feel that if a woman ever experienced any guilt or regrets it's because someone tried to make her feel guilty. Why do some of these right wingers think that when a woman chooses to have an abortion, she doesn't think the whole thing through?

You'll have to ask those right wingers, I suppose. The only opposition I have to adult women choosing to kill their own children while still in their wombs revolves not around the act itself but rather around what strikes me as the intellectual dishonesty of calling it "reproductive choice". I've never understood why the moment of "reproductive choice" doesn't occur simultaneous with allowing a guy with whom one does not want to have children to shoot her full of baby batter.



Why would this be something not to think through? A teenage girl on the other hand may not think about this choice.


So should a teenage girl have the right to choose to have an abortion absent parental permission or parental notification at the very least?

Mycernius
26-01-06, 18:42
Do women who have had abortions never experience any regrets or guilt over it?
The woman who bought the case to the courts had an abortion when she was young. She has said on many an occassion that she regretted it ever since. I think that is one reason why she went to court, to prevent her daughters from doing the same thing.

Tsuyoiko
26-01-06, 19:20
Only if we assume the teenage girl has a hole where her humanity is supposed to be and will never in the future experience heartaches for having killed a child.I don't think it's helpful to condemn people who make difficult, contraversial decisions. I think a pregnant 14 year old (say), with the proper detached expert advice and guidance can make a decision that is best for her and her family. She may experience regrets, but that is possible whatever decision she makes about anything.

Ma Cherie
26-01-06, 20:04
You'll have to ask those right wingers, I suppose. The only opposition I have to adult women choosing to kill their own children while still in their wombs revolves not around the act itself but rather around what strikes me as the intellectual dishonesty of calling it "reproductive choice". I've never understood why the moment of "reproductive choice" doesn't occur simultaneous with allowing a guy with whom one does not want to have children to shoot her full of baby batter.
So should a teenage girl have the right to choose to have an abortion absent parental permission or parental notification at the very least?


I would think that parental consent is necessary. But understand that some people who are pro-choice see this as a restriction. I think it's bit extreme to say that these women are killing their children, don't you think? :? I can understand why you feel the way you do. But since this is such a controversial and complex issue, we have look at all the circumstances a woman may find herself.

Glenn
26-01-06, 21:00
I think it depends on when the abortion is conducted. There's a certain point where the fetus has developed all of its organs, and at that point it's human (I think right before the third trimester or maybe earlier).

Mike Cash
26-01-06, 21:48
I think it's bit extreme to say that these women are killing their children, don't you think?

No, I don't think it's extreme. If they're not killing their children, then what are they doing? We can get into all kind of clinical talk about viability outside the womb, nomenclature at various stages of development, and all the rest, but it all boils down to killing a child, generally for one's own convenience or as an abrogation of responsibility for one's personal actions.

Ma Cherie
26-01-06, 22:19
No, I don't think it's extreme. If they're not killing their children, then what are they doing? We can get into all kind of clinical talk about viability outside the womb, nomenclature at various stages of development, and all the rest, but it all boils down to killing a child, generally for one's own convenience or as an abrogation of responsibility for one's personal actions.

mikecash, it's not always about one's own perosnal convenience. Like I said, there are different circumstances when a woman may be faced to make this decision, even if she doesn't want to. Have you thought about the circumstance when a woman is raped? I hope you don't think women decide to have abortions because they simply don't want to take responsibility for their actions, yes there's women who do that and I think that's sad. But that's not always the case. In fact, most the time, that's not the case.

Ma Cherie
26-01-06, 22:22
Sorry about the double post, but I was wondering, how high is the teenage pregnacy rate in the UK?

Clawn
26-01-06, 23:33
I think abortion is okay in some cases.


rape
inablility to financially handle a child
well, that's about it actually


If a parent/s cannot afford to keep the would-be-child alive, then I think that one is doing them a favor by not letting them live a wretched life.

Mike Cash
27-01-06, 11:38
mikecash, it's not always about one's own perosnal convenience. Like I said, there are different circumstances when a woman may be faced to make this decision, even if she doesn't want to. Have you thought about the circumstance when a woman is raped?
Yes I have. I have no answer for that. I do think that for the sake of greater mutual understanding on this very very touchy subject I should point out that I have not said that abortion should be illegal or that it should never be performed.

I hope you don't think women decide to have abortions because they simply don't want to take responsibility for their actions, yes there's women who do that and I think that's sad. But that's not always the case. In fact, most the time, that's not the case.

Abortion Statistics - Decisions to Have an Abortion (U.S.)
* 25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing.
* 21.3% of women cannot afford a baby.
* 14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child.
* 12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy.)
* 10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career.
* 7.9% of women want no (more) children.
* 3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health.
* 2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health.


A survey of women seeking abortions indicated that only 7%
of women cited typical ghard casesh (rape, incest, or some
health concern with either the baby or the mother) as the
primary reason they were seeking abortion.



Why Abortions Are Performed
* The overwhelming majority of all abortions, (95%), are done as a means of birth control.U.S. Abortion Statistics, U.S. State abortion statistics, by Race, by Age, Worldwide abortion statistics, teen abortion statistics
* Only 1% are performed because of rape or incest;
* 1% because of fetal abnormalities;
* 3% due to the mother's health problems.

also: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html#3
If you know of some statistics that show that over half (i.e. "most") abortions are performed to end pregnancies resulting from rape or as anything other than ex post facto birth control, I would welcome a link to them.

Tsuyoiko
27-01-06, 11:54
Sorry about the double post, but I was wondering, how high is the teenage pregnacy rate in the UK?It is the highest in western Europe - about 40,000 a year. That's twice as high as Germany, three times higher than France and six times higher than Holland. I'm not sure how it compares to the US.

It may be worth noting that teenage pregnancy is not necessarily disastrous. I think it depends very much on having a supportive family. If a girl and her boyfriend have supportive parents, their involvement should be encouraged. Unfortunately, many teenagers have reactionary parents whose involvement only makes matters worse.

I speak from personal experience. I have a cousin who was a 'wild-child' and got pregnant at 16. Her parents, and her boyfriend's dad, were very supportive. They kept the baby and now have another child - and are still together after 13 years. Having a baby so young made my cousin pull herself together and grow up fast - they are now a happy, respectable family, and they still enjoy a lot of support from their parents.

I know someone else who got pregnant at 19. Her parents have done nothing but criticise and resent her and the child, and slag off the boyfriend. She eventually split up with him. She never grew up and took responsibility, and I doubt she will ever settle down, although I hope I'm wrong. I think she would have been better off if her parents had butted out.

Tsuyoiko
27-01-06, 12:03
Mikecash - I think you have a different definition of birth control than me.

These I class as birth control:

* 25.5% of women want to postpone childbearing.
* 10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career.
* 7.9% of women want no (more) children.

(A total of 44.2%)

These I class as acting in the best interests of all parties:

* 21.3% of women cannot afford a baby.
* 14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child.
* 12.2% of women are too young
* 3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health.
* 2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health.

(A total of 53.7%)

2.1% disappeared somewhere, but by my reckoning, 'most' are not using it as birth control. But I would agree that 44.2% is far too many.

Revenant
27-01-06, 12:08
If a parent/s cannot afford to keep the would-be-child alive, then I think that one is doing them a favor by not letting them live a wretched life.Most children would prefer life to this so-called-mercy-killing, despite having a harder life.

Mike Cash
27-01-06, 12:56
Mikecash - I think you have a different definition of birth control than me.
These I class as birth control:
* 25.5% of women want to postpone childbearing.
* 10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career.
* 7.9% of women want no (more) children.
(A total of 44.2%)
These I class as acting in the best interests of all parties:
* 21.3% of women cannot afford a baby.
* 14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child.
* 12.2% of women are too young
* 3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health.
* 2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health.
(A total of 53.7%)
2.1% disappeared somewhere, but by my reckoning, 'most' are not using it as birth control. But I would agree that 44.2% is far too many.

Leaving aside cases of rape.....

They engaged in reproductive activity. Reproduction resulted. They choose to call a mulligan. The reasons are irrelevant to the fact that it is after-the-fact birth control.

Tsuyoiko
30-01-06, 18:04
Leaving aside cases of rape.....
They engaged in reproductive activity. Reproduction resulted. They choose to call a mulligan. The reasons are irrelevant to the fact that it is after-the-fact birth control.I understand what you mean, but I don't agree. I don't think sex is just for reproduction, and accidents can happen. If people are in a situation where they can bring up a child then they should make that effort. But some people have good reasons to believe that they could not support a child, and I don't think that's birth control. Do you think people who don't want a child should abstain?

Kinsao
16-02-06, 13:30
I agree with Mike about this.

As regards the issue that the topic was originally about: no, I don't think underage girls should be allowed to have access to abortion without one of their parents or guardians being informed/involved.

It is a medical procedure, and as such carries risks to her physical health, and also to her mental health and emotions, because of the circumstances which are much more emotionally charged than those surrounding other medical procedures.

You aren't even allowed to get your belly-button pierced without parental/guardian consent if you're under 16, and yet you're allowed to have the child dragged out of your womb? That doesn't make any sense to me. You're not even allowed to drink alcohol in a pub until you're 18, supposedly.

Naturally, there are some circumstances where a girl's parents don't want what is best for her; families where the parents are cruel, unfeeling or abusive. But these parents, as well as being the minority, obviously have problems which mean that the whole circumstances need to be investigated; their children will already be suffering because of their situation and it's not possible to say that either choice 'abortion' or 'no abortion' would do anything to alleviate this.

If the girl's health is at risk because of the pregnancy, then of course an abortion should be performed.

Madivin
04-07-11, 08:01
A female's right to choose in Kansas might shortly be blown away like dust in the wind. As reported by the Associated Press, Kansas state legislators unanimously approved new abortion regulations that might squash providers in the state out of business. The Kansas Department of Health and Environment can begin implementing the new regulations as early as Friday. I found this here: New Kansas abortion rules will usurp the right to choose (http://www.newsytype.com/8435-kansas-abortion-rules)