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Kinsao
16-02-06, 13:42
I've never started a thread before (except for Sloganizer!)! But I wondered what people think about ID cards?

What about those of you in countries where you already have ID cards; from your experiences what do you find to be the pros and cons? How do you think the proposed ID cards in the UK would differ from those used in your country? (It seems that there is planned to be quite a lot of detail on them...)

Do you have different views on ID cards containing biometric data then just the 'normal' ones?

Personally, I have a gut reaction against ID cards. The very thought of them being made compulsory makes me instinctively say, "No way! I'm not getting one! I will leave the country first!" Partly this is just because of my personality... I know it is... I keep trying to quash it and think about it rationally, but for once I've found myself unable to. My hackles just rise and will not go down!

But that's just me. One guaranteed way of getting me to do something is to tell me to do the opposite.

What do you feel? And what do you think?

I read the news in the papers, but here is something from the BBC website:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4711178.stm

On a slightly more technical note, I think the security of the central database would be incredibly hard to maintain; one database with thousands of access points? Meaning thousands of weak points! Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

We all know what happens when bureaucracy and admin procedures go even slightly out of kilter. Imagine the knock-on effect that could happen if there was to become some error or quirk of your ID card...

Sometimes people say, "You should be OK with it, if you have nothing to hide", which is a fair enough argument, but it doesn't convince me.

*desperately tries to pretend she has nothing to hide* XDD

Rich303
17-02-06, 15:18
I am a little concerned about I.D cards, which it seems we might have soon in the UK.
It is not the 'invasion of privacy', and 'big brother' aspect that bothers me as I have nothing to hide, but more the faith the government is placing in them.

I don't think it will make a significant difference to crime and terrorism in this country. People can already fake their identity quite easily, and I think the criminals will just evolve with the technology (e.g hacking, on-line fraud, I.D theft). Also, I heard that the July 7th bombers would have been perfectly entitled to an ID card, I think they lived in the UK legally.
The ID card scheme will cost a lot of money which will undoubtedly come from tax payers.

One positive aspect is that they would become a 'catch all' form of ID, so no more messing around with passports, driver's licence etc.
I understand plenty of other countries use ID cards, and would be interested to know how much good they have done.

Kinsao
17-02-06, 15:32
Great minds think alike!
I posted a topic on this yesterday:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22073
but I didn't know where to put it, so I put it in the 'Europe' section. :sorry:

I tend to agree with your thinking... I think there are lots of technological difficulties, and also when something does go wrong with the system (as it will... these things always do) the backlash will be significant if a lot of reliance is placed on that system.

Rich303
17-02-06, 17:34
Sorry Kinsao, I've not been around for a while.
Just had a look at your post - excellent !

In the words of Peter Cook;
''This country is turning into a Gestapo Khazi''

We will not be given a choice on this. I want to go and live in a cave.

There is something I just don't like about the ID card idea.

Tokis-Phoenix
17-02-06, 17:46
The thing i dislike the most about the concept of ID cards is the fact that they will cost billions of pounds to put into practice, and maybe its just me, but personally i think billions of pounds could be better spent some where else, like our crumbling NHS system, or putting it into alternative enviromentally friendly fuels, or sorting out the mess in iraq and helping the people out there etc etc...

Mycernius
17-02-06, 18:35
Great minds think alike!
I posted a topic on this yesterday:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22073
but I didn't know where to put it, so I put it in the 'Europe' section. :sorry:
I tend to agree with your thinking... I think there are lots of technological difficulties, and also when something does go wrong with the system (as it will... these things always do) the backlash will be significant if a lot of reliance is placed on that system.
Why not merge the two threads?
Anywho. I'm not really against ID cards, but what I find irritating is Tony Blair being so insistant on it. The guys a jerk and I heard him on Wednesday debating the terrorism bill, where he had a virtual tantrum in the house. The sooner he goes the better. Like most ideas our 'wonderful' government has had it will be rushed and not work correctly. If they think it through and took the time it would work, but, no, Tony must have it now and his brown nosing Blairites will try their best to force it through and it will be another half-arsed job.:okashii:

Rich303
17-02-06, 18:42
You're darn tootin' - I agree. Blair is an utter bell-end

Kinsao
20-02-06, 12:14
Why not merge the two threads?
Right you are! :cool:

When you strip away my attempted rationalization, this about sums up my feelings:


There is something I just don't like about the ID card idea.

-rika- shinya`
21-02-06, 21:47
I've never started a thread before (except for Sloganizer!)!
you do mean other than entertainment forum right? because there is a pageful of threads that you started

this is quite a weird topic. id cards? In HK,malaysia,singapore, you need to make an ID card after you turn 12. It has never bothered/angered me the least in any way. Quite the contrary i was looking forward to having mine when i reached the age. :)

of course, smart cards can't stop all the faking but it is more difficult to forge them than the old ID cards.

Having an ID card is convenient, and also your license on it.
It also has space for future applictions such as health records, electronic cash, a prepaid travel card for selected trains, buses and highway tolls. But yes, electronic cash is a little worrying.

i'm quite surprised to see this. I'd like to hear your opinion as why you so strongly object to it/hate it other than something like 'going against it just because it is compulsory'.

Kinsao
21-02-06, 23:37
Well, as I said in my first post, my main concerns are around security. It's not so much of an issue when it's just a 'card' card, but the biometric aspect creates complications. I just think it wouldn't work, could well do more harm than good, and will cost a lot of money in the process.

Also, identity theft is already becoming a bigger problem, at least here in the UK (I don't know about it in other places), particularly with the amount of data held electronically these days. I mean, you can't even put your bills in your binbags without shredding them. :souka: It's still relatively rare - I'm not paranoid or scaremongering! - but it is on the increase and you do have to be careful.

-rika- shinya`
22-02-06, 00:41
um..what complications ? :?
the biometric aspect that you are worried about is not as bad as it seems

First, only police officers can ask it from me. No other entity has ANY right to see it.
Banks ask them. No problem with that, they'd better make sure nobody but me withdraws money from my bank account.
I have to show it when I go in a night club if I'm suspected to be underage, no problem with that either.
I have to show it when a cop controls me (as well as my driver's license, paper to say the car passed the last safety test, that I paid my insurance, ...).
That's all, it is a proof of identity and I don't see any problem with that.
if the card was stolen, lost it, anything else, just phone to invalidate it! :souka:

Pachipro
03-03-06, 20:19
You are quite correct in your fears Kinsao, but be sure it is coming and the very few of us who fear it and see it coming can do nothing to stop it as the majority are already brainwashed into thinking it is a good thing. To prove this they will tell you, "If you haven't done anything wrong, then you have nothing to fear."

But I say you have everything to fear. Your rights and freedoms for one. And it will start in the UK and the US at almost the same time. You watch. Just check out this article (http://www.yorkdispatch.com/viewpoints/editorial/ci_3554871)and you will see what I mean.

Soon, living in the US or UK will be no different than living as a foreigner in Japan as the police can always stop you on your bicycle or just walking down the streen and ask for your ID card.

Remember, how the UK goes, so goes the US and vice versa. The one world government is just around the corner.

These days most people are so dumbed down and brainwashed that all we (who are not dumbed down) can do is mock the government for their foolish actions. Soon that will be outlawed also.

It is said that when the government fears the people there is freedom and democracy. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. I believe the latter is becoming more the norm these days.

Dutch Baka
04-03-06, 10:59
Well, I am not against I.D. cards that much, even though they can be pretty annoying, but I think they can make a country saver, and for example in europe you can travel to all EU countries with this card without taking this big pasport with you, so I think there are a lot of good things about it.

But one thing I think is just crazy is that here in the Netherlands, we have an I.D. rule, when the police ask you for your I.D. and you don't have it with you, you have to pay 40 euro... so for example I am going shopping just 5minutes away from my house, and the police ask me for it, I HAVE TO PAY FREAKING 40euro, only because I want to get some milk 5minutes away from my home??? they started with this last year in January, and in 3months time they already fined 300.000 people 40euro x 300.000 = 12.000.000 mm not bad huh.. assholes

ow, another good thing from the I.D. card is that it is getting more difficult for young kids to buy cigarets and booz

nurizeko
04-03-06, 16:09
ID cards do absolutely nothing for the UK in any sense of the word improvement.

As such i just see it as making it all the easier for a more totalitarian government to supress the people all the easier.

So saying that compulsory or not, i will refuse to carry an ID card, and if i have to be a political prisoner for it, so be it.

If i just accept ID cards i might aswell be in prison.

And no...i have nothing to hide, just my rights to privacy and freedom.

Reiku
05-03-06, 09:12
You're kidding me?

The U.K. didn't have ID cards, and now they're going to?

What a waste.

They should ask my country how well an ID card system prevents crime and terrorism. :D

Personally though, I think it's more of an empty gesture to make the public feel safe rather than an attempt to Orwellize anything--unless the cards are sugically implanted, they wouldn't work for that.

Maciamo
05-03-06, 12:23
I had started a similar thread about foreigner's ID cards in Japan (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6672), asking if people were for or against. The vast majority was "for" (6:1 if we omit the "undecided").

I am personally "for" ID cards, as they are so convenient to register somewhere (sports club, video club, insurance, government redtape, etc.), and prevent identity thefts (especially with modern, hard-to-copy electronic ID cards (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20500)). I don't understand how many English speakers worldwide think that ID cards is bad for the privacy, as the government already knows the info of the card as every citizen must have a file mentioning their name, address and birthdate in every country - otherwise, such a person would have no right to get a passport, drivers' licence, health insurance, pension, etc., and would have no proof of their nationality of legality of stay of that country.


On a slightly more technical note, I think the security of the central database would be incredibly hard to maintain; one database with thousands of access points? Meaning thousands of weak points! Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

Why would it ? Such a database already exists in the UK, US, Japan, and any other country without ID cards. How do you think the government knows you when you get married, declare a child, get a driving licence, register for election, or want your first passport ? I don't know the official name, but there is such a database with all the people living in the country. In fact, they even keep those of dead people, and that is how genealogists get their information (well, usually you don't have access to files of people dead less than 100 years ago, except with special permission, which I was able to obtain fairly easily for my research). In many countries, every individual has a national number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identification_number) used for ID cards, health insurance, pension, etc.) since their birth (or immigration) is registered.

Anyhow, if one wanted to know somebody's address or phone number, you can just check a phone book (especially PC versions, where you can just type a street name and get the names and phone numbers of all its residents). Because we live in the age of information, it makes it more dangerous not to have any proof of one's identity. I am still amazed that some countries allow to withdraw all the money from a bank account without a serious proof of identity with picture and hard to falsify (e.g. if the person does not have a driving licence or passport, and has no ID card system).

I read the comments "against" ID cards on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ID_card), and they are pretty superficial, not to say completely paranoiac and misguided. If the government wanted to control its people, it could do it without ID cards (as I said, they already know the info on the card). Anyway, no democratic country's government has the power to control its people like a totalitarian country nowadays. Even totalitarian China can't, because of the internet, mobile phones, etc.

As for the links with the Nazi or Apartheid, I also disagree that only one group of people (specific ethnicity, religion, or just all foreigners...) should carry ID cards. That is basically what disliked about the Japanese system. Foreigners also have ID cards in Belgium, but all as all Belgians must carry one, everybody is on a par.

This brings us to the last issue I find worth discussing about ID cards; should people be obliged to have one or should it be voluntary ? If it is compulsory, should people have to carry it at all times with them (like in Belgium) ? As much as I am in favour of ID cards, I am not very warm about having to carry it at all times on me, like in Belgium and Japan (especially if that means risking being fined or brought to the police station if a police officer asks for it).

Minty
25-05-06, 03:45
In Australia there is no ID card, our passport or our drivers' license are our ID card. However Australia is very strict on border control so when you enter internationally they do check very strictly but within Australia they don't ask to check your status.

In France I have a temporary ID card, in the future when I get my permanent ID card it would not be the same format as my husband's because I am not French.

There is a thing about French's driver's license, once you got it, it is for life but people age and people can loose weight or put on weight and people can change their hair colours and stuff...:?

There have been cases where officers couldn't tell from the passport photos because people lost weight and look very different from the passport photos but at least with passport when it gets full you get a new one and it is not a lifetime thing.:haihai:


But one thing I think is just crazy is that here in the Netherlands, we have an I.D. rule, when the police ask you for your I.D. and you don't have it with you, you have to pay 40 euro... so for example I am going shopping just 5minutes away from my house, and the police ask me for it, I HAVE TO PAY FREAKING 40euro, only because I want to get some milk 5minutes away from my home??? they started with this last year in January, and in 3months time they already fined 300.000 people 40euro x 300.000 = 12.000.000 mm not bad huh.. assholes

In France you get a fine too but not sure how much need to check with my husband, thatfs why here it's important to carry your ID card every time you go out.

Maciamo
25-05-06, 10:34
Same in Belgium; you must pay a fine if you don't have your ID card on you. Like in France, Belgian driving licences are for life (but that will change in a few years with European driving licences (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22983)).

^ lynx ^
29-09-10, 07:51
I am personally "for" ID cards, as they are so convenient to register somewhere (sports club, video club, insurance, government redtape, etc.), and prevent identity thefts (especially with modern, hard-to-copy electronic ID cards (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20500)). I don't understand how many English speakers worldwide think that ID cards is bad for the privacy, as the government already knows the info of the card as every citizen must have a file mentioning their name, address and birthdate in every country - otherwise, such a person would have no right to get a passport, drivers' licence, health insurance, pension, etc., and would have no proof of their nationality of legality of stay of that country.

Same here...

Soriori
27-10-11, 18:07
another old thread, but I want to answer it!

unfortunately, I'm not in EU )) but think ID card is a good thing for every country.
It can help fight illegal immigration, minimize time that is taken by all these paper work and also prevent some kinds of crimes.