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Maciamo
22-02-06, 12:18
Belgian PM Guy Verhofstadt recently has published a book called "The United States of Europe", in which he explains how the some EU-member states could go ahead to form a federal European state, while other members state could join later. This principle of two-speed Europe is not new, but the fact that it receives such a strong support from an EU founding country's head of state shows that it is not just empty talks.

Watch the TV interview of Guy Verhofstadt on Euronews (http://www.euronews.net/create_html.php?page=detail_interview&article=343725&lng=1) (note that you can get the video and transcripts in 7 languages).

d3jake
23-02-06, 00:47
That is an interesting idea... It would probably create a international power that could rival The US or Japan.

Duo
23-02-06, 01:30
That is an interesting idea... It would probably create a international power that could rival The US or Japan.

The EU is already an international power that does so. It is currently the world's largest economy.

d3jake
23-02-06, 01:48
Sorry, my mistake.

Elizabeth van Kampen
23-02-06, 11:28
Good morning Maciamo,

That is a very good article from Guy Verhofstadt! Slowly but surely we have to become a United States of Europe.

Speeking for myself, I feel very European. Maybe because I come from such a small country?!
But there is only one thing that trouble me a little. The language will be English, in the future you will get a sort of European English.
I sincerely hope that French and German will stay, but I am also for Italian and Spanish. I guess that learning Spanish at school will become a must because of the countries in South America, but also in the USA 50% of the people speak Spanish. For us in Europe it would be sad if Frech and German will become lost languages.
Don't you agree?

moffeltoff
23-02-06, 14:54
Why should the language be english?
I absolutly don´t agree there are much more people in the EU who speak german or a dialekt like dutch ,which is closely realtrd to german.
Or why not french I personally don´t like the language very much but still I think Germany and France play a much bigger role in the history of europe than any anglican country.

Duo
23-02-06, 20:28
Well english would be a logical choice because it is the international language and is probaply know the most around europe by the different nations. If you look at it proportionally, excluding england and germany, in the other european nations more people are familiar with english rather than german or french

Elizabeth van Kampen
24-02-06, 10:57
Wow, moffeltoff,
Dutch and Flemish are Germanic languages, but not dialects from Germany.

We are all Americanized here in Europe, one country more than the other okay, but when I watch the German TV or the French TV I often see synchronized American films.

We will be better off with a United States of Europe, than we don't have to copy the USA but we can become once more an important continent that has much to offer, united in all its differences.
The world gets smaller (figurative) Europe needs that feeling "One of us" in this world of today.

TwistedMac
24-02-06, 16:22
Why should the language be english?
I absolutly don´t agree there are much more people in the EU who speak german or a dialekt like dutch ,which is closely realtrd to german.
Or why not french I personally don´t like the language very much but still I think Germany and France play a much bigger role in the history of europe than any anglican country.

I for one would never sit down and re-educate myself to learn a language that is used to a pathetic degree on a global scale compared to English, just because some european brats are too high and mighty to admit their language is not as global as they think.

Mamoru-kun
24-02-06, 16:33
I for one would never sit down and re-educate myself to learn a language that is used to a pathetic degree on a global scale compared to English, just because some european brats are too high and mighty to admit their language is not as global as they think.
Somehow agree. When you have to go to an internationnal meeting, own company related or not, it's so much easier to synchronize and make contacts in english that there is no reason to try something else (except perhaps everything in binary code? ;-)). The fact: English -is- the Western (global term) World language. Want another prove? What are we actually speaking here? ;-)

Maciamo
25-02-06, 10:43
I for one would never sit down and re-educate myself to learn a language that is used to a pathetic degree on a global scale compared to English, just because some european brats are too high and mighty to admit their language is not as global as they think.

If you learn languages only for its practical value, then you should be satisfied with English. However, there are many other reasons to learn a language. I found myself to learn best when I really loved the language. "Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius", as W.A. Mozart would say... In other words, you motivation can come from necessity as well as from attraction.

Minty
26-02-06, 02:45
I wonder whether this will work. I mean there are too many countries, cultures, languages, difference of opinions, tensions, likes, dislikes etc. in the European Union. For example France will always differ from the UK...etc

TwistedMac
26-02-06, 14:19
If you learn languages only for its practical value, then you should be satisfied with English. However, there are many other reasons to learn a language. I found myself to learn best when I really loved the language. "Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius", as W.A. Mozart would say... In other words, you motivation can come from necessity as well as from attraction.
agreed, but to expect everyone to love German or French just because someone does themself is pretty blatantly ignorant.

I know a good deal of German, but to be honest I hate the language... French not so much, it has a nice ring to it.

Maciamo
26-02-06, 18:19
agreed, but to expect everyone to love German or French just because someone does themself is pretty blatantly ignorant.

You can't expect people to love something/someone. However, the more things you love, and the more you will learn and enjoy your life.:-)

nurizeko
04-03-06, 12:35
heh united states of europe, its too cute!

Seriously, we cant even agree on a united language, how many single nations have so many different languages in it?....i mean thats just stupid, each country is so different that a united states of europe would look too stupid to take seriously.

The french and germans will never give up their languages, so the USE is dead before its even so much as a twinkle in EU un-accountable beaurocrats eyes.

Seriously its a nice fantasy, this united europe crap, but europe is a diverse continent, its never going to happen, its as silly as expecting all the countries of asia to unite just because they share the same continent,the fact is an indian is in no position to govern a chinese, just as much as an italian is in no position to understand the needs and wants of a dane.

Maciamo
05-03-06, 13:37
heh united states of europe, its too cute!
Seriously, we cant even agree on a united language, how many single nations have so many different languages in it?....
It's so cute that you' think that a government needs a common language to work properly. So naive ! Just look at Canada, Belgium, Switzerland, India, China... All these have several official languages and work just fine. There has never been any talk of imposing Swiss German to all Swiss citizens, nor Dutch to all Belgians. :D It's justly people like you who are responsible for cultural oppression in the UK. How comes that out of 6 official languages (now), 2 are extinct (Cornish and Manx Gaelic), one is nearly extinct (Scottish Gaelic), one was banned at school until recently (Welsh Gaelic), which only leaves English and Scots. Even Irish Gaelic is not official in Northern Ireland. The language almost disappeared from Ireland because of English-speaking Brits banning it from school from the 18th century onwards, for the sake of a "common language". Go and visit the EU Parliament in Brussels. You will see it indicated in all 20 EU official languages, and you will be able to get almost instantaneous translations in each of them from the headphones available to visitors. This is what I call a real effort to promote linguistic and cultural diversity. Maybe the British government should start learning from the EU and give Gaelic and Scots translations of Parliament discussions to the audience.


The french and germans will never give up their languages, so the USE is dead before its even so much as a twinkle in EU un-accountable beaurocrats eyes.

Too bad you think like that. I pity people government by people thinking like you. This is the basis of totalitarian repression. That is everything the EU is fighting agaisnt ! Maybe that's why so many Brits dislike the EU. They just wish that everybody would speak English, as they don't have the brains to learn other languages, nor the tolerance and respect for people who think differently !

nurizeko
09-03-06, 19:23
I dont wish everyone will speak english, i just recognise a unassailable fact, Different languages are the first of many indicators of cultural difference, and scots gealic is dying out because its impractical, not because i have a vandetta against it.
(if you think otherwise watch gealic language TV on british channel 2, theres so many english words in it its funny).

If i remember correctly canada doesnt get along, quebec folk want independence, at least a large preportion of them.

China suceeds because the ethnic minorities are supressed, its a bit easier to "get along" when one dominant group and their language holds a gun to the heads of the minorities if they so much as ask for independence.

Cute, accusing me of cultural opression, i guess you must assume i go around blowing up mosques and hindu temples and beating up anyone not speaking english.....seriously, whos the real totalitarian here?.

Im standing up for my believe in the sovreignty of distinct seperate nations, your the one looking down on anyone who doesnt agree with your fantasy of a united europe, you appear to be the one that needs to demonise me and people who feel like me when we dont want your world view imposed on us.

Scots isnt a language its a dialect, evident by the fact most of it is actually understandable to me, an english speaker.


Too bad you think like that. I pity people government by people thinking like you. This is the basis of totalitarian repression. That is everything the EU is fighting agaisnt ! Maybe that's why so many Brits dislike the EU. They just wish that everybody would speak English, as they don't have the brains to learn other languages, nor the tolerance and respect for people who think differently !

Governed^

No, Looking down upon the independent minded in favour of a larger regime against their will is the basis of totalitarian opression, its the same principle behind ethnic minorities being opressed by a larger neighbour, just as you and other pro-EU's look down and spit upon those of us who are quite happy to remain independent and loyal to our country.
I dont wish everybody speaks english, i never said that so, thats your flawed assumption im afraid.
I am learning Japanese, again your position is your own flawed creation, most likely feuled by the pumpmed ego and sense of superiority and rightousness caused by the beleif your EU is the awsner to all ills.
As for tolerance, well, funny, one of us is arguing for the freedom and sovreignty of other peoples cultures and way of life as much as my own, one of us is arguing that a democratically un-accountable and barely functioning beaurocracy with too much paper-work and not enough of what really matters, has no right or ability to decide the fate and future of a people on the other side on the continent, with a different language, culture, taboos and principles and ideals.
One of us is saying a united states of europe is a fantasy, and that human nature will either turn it into a totalitarian opressor you preach to oppose, or crumble under its own inability to function competently and provide a semblence of a thriving and universally acceptable regime.

The one size fits all federal approach works for the united states because all the states are in no sense considored culturally and nationally seperate from the centre, An american from one side of the country is (apart from maybe skin) probably little different from one from the other, in europe, a different country is a different country.

You mistake a shared religion and continent as basis for forcing europe into one nation. It isnt.
And the only way it will ever acheive this is by force, and we all know how forceful conquest of europe ends up.

Human nature dictates Loyalty to nation and culture is fact, human nature dictates a fantasy where all of europe suddenly falls in line, all cultural difference vanishes, all language barriers are broken down, where all europeans despite their country of origin suddenly forget their nationality for the fake artificially imposed idea of european nationality, where everyone suddenly drops their live and ambitions and desires, to fall in line for the greater good of this new and alien idea of USE, is fiction.

Your right though that British folk are different from the rest of europe, a fine example of why a USE wont work, were part of the EU and already you, a self proclaimed european citizen appear to hold a contept for what essentially will be a fellow countryman in a perfect USE future.

So what would happen if the USE was founded? would your non-existant forces invade france for resisting?, would britain become a pariah, maybe you would like to blitz london again?....Maybe you would like world war 3 where the USE forces (if they actually manage to exist and establish themselves) wage war against the unbeliever remainder of europe who dont join originally?.

Federalism is just as dangerous and contemptuous as any dictatorial empire, at least when it has designs over an entire continent of diverse independent and sovreign cultures.

bossel
12-03-06, 05:37
scots gealic is dying out because its impractical,
Impractical? Why? Because the official language is English, perhaps?


(if you think otherwise watch gealic language TV on british channel 2, theres so many english words in it its funny).
Watch English language TV, there are so many French & Latin words in it, it's funny.


Scots isnt a language its a dialect, evident by the fact most of it is actually understandable to me, an english speaker.
Standard English is a dialect, too.


As for tolerance, well, funny, one of us is arguing for the freedom and sovreignty of other peoples cultures and way of life as much as my own,
You're arguing in favour of freedom & sovereignty of Scotland & Wales, too?


in europe, a different country is a different country.
Nope. Eg. the Germans living near the Dutch border have more in common (eg. the dialect they speak) with each other than with Bavarians.


Human nature dictates Loyalty to nation and culture is fact
Nope, nations haven't even existed for very long yet, just a few hundred years. Can't be human nature, then.


europeans despite their country of origin suddenly forget their nationality for the fake artificially imposed idea of european nationality
All nationalities are artificially imposed ideas.


Federalism is just as dangerous and contemptuous as any dictatorial empire, at least when it has designs over an entire continent of diverse independent and sovreign cultures.
How would you define an independent & sovereign culture?

nurizeko
17-03-06, 18:06
The fact your german and im british for a start.

Bossel, honestly, im saddened, you havnt made a serious attempt at all, just omni-slashing empty drivel.

I know your better then that, try harder.

Elizabeth van Kampen
17-03-06, 19:13
Hi NURIZEKO,
I lived and worked 9 years in Switzerland, a country with 4 languages, and yet there was no language problem. I lived in Lausanne, in the French speaking part. Most of the young Swiss speak English as well.
But I must say that only the German speaking cantons,could often speak French, Italian and English. The Italian part of Switserland could often speak French and English. But in the French cantons most of the Swiss spoke French only, but luckily today they also speak English.

European language? I guess English is by far the most practical.
But I honestly hope that most young Europeans will keep on studiying, French, German and maybe Spanish and Italian, they are all four such beautiful languages.

bossel
18-03-06, 04:08
The fact your german and im british for a start.
Yep, quite an artificial distinction.


Bossel, honestly, im saddened, you havnt made a serious attempt at all, just omni-slashing empty drivel.
Yep, you got the point: The response showed that your own points can be used just as well against you.


I know your better then that, try harder.
Nope, nationalism is not worth the effort.

scieck
24-03-06, 17:37
In the competitive world that we leave in, a EU is unavoidable.
From the past we have learned that strength is achieved through unity, from few people in caves, to villages, from city to nations.
Any European country that doesn't join the EU is destined to be economically squashed by today economic powers.
Although i must say that if the decision was up to me i would leave Britain out of the EU, i am really sick about their snobbish arrogant attitude towards Europe.
I would have Britain join the USA (officially), there shouldn't be any objection there, the language is the same, and Britain seems already quite happy to do all that George Bush ask them to do.
And for the fact that maybe the country could survive on its own, forget it colonial times are finished, Britain needs economical allies, and every “true British nationalist” should understand this unless of course it is a Friday after 5pm :gulp:

Thor
01-04-06, 08:07
I'm glad that Europe put together the European Union. Everybody needs to join it. They already created the national currency. It's like a new country is being born. I guess that's why I'm so interested in Europe at the moment?

Mmm, I don't think the EU needs one official language. I studied german in school last year(failed it due to the fact that I was lazy). I loved the language though. It's very interesting, and once I get some money I will probably take courses of German at a community college. That'll be lots of fun. Then I can start french after that, and if I do well with those two then I can take swedish too. Europe is an amazing place.

I hope this wasn't too much of a rant.

bossel
02-04-06, 04:27
Mmm, I don't think the EU needs one official language.
Well, it does have the need. All those translation services needed at the moment are just a waste of money. They should agree on English as working language, which would simplify translation business significantly.


Dutch and Flemish are Germanic languages, but not dialects from Germany.

I absolutly don´t agree there are much more people in the EU who speak german or a dialekt like dutch ,which is closely realtrd to german.
Actually, Dutch, Flemish & German are all German dialects, or to be more precise: part of the continental West Germanic dialect continuum. The differentiation is only gradually from the North Sea coast to South Tyrol.

Thor
02-04-06, 05:07
Well, it does have the need. All those translation services needed at the moment are just a waste of money. They should agree on English as working language, which would simplify translation business significantly.
Actually, Dutch, Flemish & German are all German dialects, or to be more precise: part of the continental West Germanic dialect continuum. The differentiation is only gradually from the North Sea coast to South Tyrol.
Oversimplifying things can be a bad thing sometimes. Everything is dumbed down in the US. It's nice for some things to not be simple.

Kronet
11-03-10, 18:40
Belgian PM Guy Verhofstadt recently has published a book called "The United States of Europe", in which he explains how the some EU-member states could go ahead to form a federal European state, while other members state could join later. This principle of two-speed Europe is not new, but the fact that it receives such a strong support from an EU founding country's head of state shows that it is not just empty talks.

Their is a treachery going on that Lisbon Treaty alleged Preamble of puppetries. How well The European Citizenries had been warn and must be very very vigilant on this deal from the beginning.

If The United States of Europe will be imposed since its possible occurrence has been an overnight overwhelming political saga. United State of Europe is just equivalent to A Third World Republic.

Actually their is no reason why USA will be opposing..because it gives them more advantage to regulate Europe as The way Mexico,Cuba,Argentina, Valenzuela has been degraded..deprive by its sovereignty legal and absolute power to governed their own nations. USA Puppeteering enable for their politician to manuever economically in the disavantage of Europeans in Global economy and Political arena.

This republic Lisbon Treaty will just worsened economic downturning...Cause it cannot used its sovereignty collateral for her capital to power up.. to achieved that economic stability..

The Lisbon Treaty has no valid State Wills and Statute to affirmed a legal rule of Law...except for its political Republic of a third world.

Kronet
11-03-10, 18:55
To be honest..I still believed in Absolute Monarchy that grant a parliament of Democracy out of peaceful resolution ...by Deed of State Wills..with The valid Sovereignty..that has been duly acknowledge by UN Tribunal Court of Appeal in The Name of International Law of Treaties. FREE EUROPA AND LET HER RULE IN PEACE AND IN UTMOST SINCERITY. ITS EVERYONE RIGHT TO CONDEMN POLITICAL PERJURY THROUGH THIS LISBON TREATY OUT THE PREAMBLE OF PUPPETRIES... PLEASE>>>

Gwyllgi
14-03-10, 14:34
Monarchy? Good God no! That path leads to no end of trouble, The sooner the UK gets rid of the Windsors the better. The ONLY thing that can be said of them is that they prevented the dreadful Cherie Blair from getting away with her claim to be First Lady, a thing she tried and was slapped down on.

Invictus_88
17-03-10, 17:23
I don't think it's too much to ask, to expect the European Union to demonstrate beyond doubt its benefits, efficiencies and overall effectiveness before a discussion legitimately takes place on even further centralisation of responsibility.

edao
12-03-11, 13:08
Belgian PM Guy Verhofstadt recently has published a book called "The United States of Europe", in which he explains how the some EU-member states could go ahead to form a federal European state, while other members state could join later. This principle of two-speed Europe is not new, but the fact that it receives such a strong support from an EU founding country's head of state shows that it is not just empty talks.



EU leader are in a round about way progessively moving toward a Federal Europe, I guess 'a question of how many economic crisis we have to go through before full political and economic intergration?

BBC news article on EU reforms. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12711183)

Regulus
12-03-11, 15:21
I sincerely hope that French and German will stay, but I am also for Italian and Spanish. I guess that learning Spanish at school will become a must because of the countries in South America, but also in the USA 50% of the people speak Spanish. For us in Europe it would be sad if Frech and German will become lost languages.
Don't you agree?


Not to jump all over one's post, but I strongly recommend that you check that percentage. The percentage of people who speak Spanish in the US is considerably less than 50%. I myself can, but I can assure you that I am in the minority in that case and in a tiny minority for a person of non-Hispanic or not of Spanish descent.

Vallicanus
13-03-11, 11:09
A US of E won't work since it does not possess an atom of military power compared to the USA, Russia,China, India et alia.

Mzungu mchagga
13-03-11, 11:51
A US of E won't work since it does not possess an atom of military power compared to the USA, Russia,China, India et alia.

A federal republic [if we call it as such] can only work with a powerful army? :confused2:
We were not talking about a super-power, it was only about a united states.

Vallicanus
13-03-11, 14:26
A federal republic [if we call it as such] can only work with a powerful army? :confused2:
We were not talking about a super-power, it was only about a united states.

If a future US of E depends mostly on American military might how exactly is it a strong sovereign state?
:thinking:

Federal republic? The EU unaccountable bureaucrats are not interested in American style state rights.

Reinaert
13-03-11, 19:45
Haha.. The US of E will never happen.
Look at my country, The Netherlands.
Devided politically more than ever.

But in one subject we Dutch all agree, we want LESS EUROPE.
The Dutch governments over the last 60 years always wanted to be the best boy in the EU and NATO classroom. It did bring us nothing, and only did cost us a huge amount of assets. We Dutch feel we were abused for at least 60 years.
By our government, the Royal Family of Thieves, the CIA, Bilderberg, and all the rest, including the mafia.

Mzungu mchagga
13-03-11, 23:19
If a future US of E depends mostly on American military might how exactly is it a strong sovereign state?
:thinking:

Federal republic? The EU unaccountable bureaucrats are not interested in American style state rights.

It is not that I want to promote the US of E. It is just that if we are bringing arguments against it, they have to be reasonable, and not laughable. The only two arguments I've ever heared from Britain were:

1. We never had a time in history in which the countries of continental Europe have been non-agressive and non-expansive (while Britain has). So there is no reason to assume this will change. Because it has always been like that, the EU can't and won't work! Fullstop!

2. And even if number 1 would be wrong, than it is because due to change after WWII the countries of continental Europe won't be mentally able to defend themselves anymore with weapons. If in the unlike situation it will happen that economy will flourish, another nation like Russia or India will immediatly attack the EU.

So with number 1 and 2 combined, the only rational solution are disarmed, political mute and economic strong countries under Anglican observation and military protection. Forever.

Vallicanus
14-03-11, 11:01
Apart from the Germans and possibly the Spanish who have cojones, western Europeans are laughably bad at waging modern war, eg French, Dutch, Belgians, Italians etc.

Regulus
14-03-11, 14:13
It is not that I want to promote the US of E. It is just that if we are bringing arguments against it, they have to be reasonable, and not laughable. The only two arguments I've ever heared from Britain were:

1. We never had a time in history in which the countries of continental Europe have been non-agressive and non-expansive (while Britain has). So there is no reason to assume this will change. Because it has always been like that, the EU can't and won't work! Fullstop!

2. And even if number 1 would be wrong, than it is because due to change after WWII the countries of continental Europe won't be mentally able to defend themselves anymore with weapons. If in the unlike situation it will happen that economy will flourish, another nation like Russia or India will immediatly attack the EU.

So with number 1 and 2 combined, the only rational solution are disarmed, political mute and economic strong countries under Anglican observation and military protection. Forever.

Rule, Britannia.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Reinaert
14-03-11, 21:34
Haha..
This is ridiculous. Britain has seen many bloody scenes on their own islands.
Britain waged wars in France. Britain was always busy to interfere in the continent of Europe, and so made wars even worse then they were already.

I can't believe Mzungu mchagga means what he says. And Vallicanus either.

They must have a sarcastic day.

Or truly are CIA or MI5 agents. And trolls.

And to Regulus. Britannia doesn't rule anything anymore.

The UK lost the connection with the Euro zone when they refused to introduce the Euro in Great Britain.
The EU is busy to develop a super economy in a very short time. We have lots of opportunities, the only thing is, we don't need the USA and the UK anymore.

And they know that. That's why they are constantly using dirty tricks.

Europe has an interest in Asia, just because we are are part of the Eurasia continent.
Wars are from the past. Economy is the future.
The Chinese already knew that, and are busy to buy the USA.
Who would have thought of that, 50 years ago?

Capitalism has been digging it's own grave for far too long.
Rest in peace.

Garrick
15-03-11, 00:36
A federal republic [if we call it as such] can only work with a powerful army? :confused2:
We were not talking about a super-power, it was only about a united states.

Mzungu mchagga
Europe is becoming stronger and the united states of Europe are only a matter of time.

And I agree with you that this is not an topic about the army, but if someone wants to talk about it can be seen that Europe is militarily strong, the only thing to see does not want it to show.

I think it's vital Europe regulate federal institutions and mechanisms that will allow access to the end of the current economic downturn and catching a strong impetus to the economy and how I'm reading it is seriously working on it so I am convinced that after the crisis of Europe would be energetic and institutionally set up to new round of development.

Mzungu mchagga
15-03-11, 02:59
Haha..
This is ridiculous. Britain has seen many bloody scenes on their own islands.
Britain waged wars in France. Britain was always busy to interfere in the continent of Europe, and so made wars even worse then they were already.

I can't believe Mzungu mchagga means what he says. And Vallicanus either.

They must have a sarcastic day.

Or truly are CIA or MI5 agents. And trolls.

And to Regulus. Britannia doesn't rule anything anymore.

The UK lost the connection with the Euro zone when they refused to introduce the Euro in Great Britain.
The EU is busy to develop a super economy in a very short time. We have lots of opportunities, the only thing is, we don't need the USA and the UK anymore.

And they know that. That's why they are constantly using dirty tricks.

Europe has an interest in Asia, just because we are are part of the Eurasia continent.
Wars are from the past. Economy is the future.
The Chinese already knew that, and are busy to buy the USA.
Who would have thought of that, 50 years ago?

Capitalism has been digging it's own grave for far too long.
Rest in peace.

:rolleyes2:
Learn to read!
I said I'm expressing the way of euroscepticism from the British point of view. And Vallicanus of course just confirmed it again!

BTW I wonder who the troll in this forum is. Just read every single sentence again you've just posted above! I don't think I have to discuss things with a person who believes to be a two thousand year old Celtic survivor who is haunted by the CIA and who's goal is to bring humanity back to palaeolithic ages with the use violence and bad manners.

Regulus
15-03-11, 03:27
Haha..

And to Regulus. Britannia doesn't rule anything anymore.

The UK lost the connection with the Euro zone when they refused to introduce the Euro in Great Britain.

Wars are from the past. Economy is the future.
Capitalism has been digging it's own grave for far too long.

Grow up, I was having fun. On top of that, "The League or Extraordinary Gentlemen" was on tonight. Sean Connery uttered "Rule Britannia' when one of the bad guys died and the Union Jack fell on him and draped his head. It was almost too good to be coincidence.

Maybe you could try to admit to yourself that China's rise is precisely because they took on a tremendous amount of capitalism in their structure. Or was it communalism? (Note a favorite word of the subject)

LeBrok
15-03-11, 03:43
Are you guys talking about our Grumpy Old Man? I think the Hollywood should make a movie about this unusually difficult and bitter person...., or maybe they made it already?

PS. The script was sent from CIA office.

Vallicanus
15-03-11, 09:35
The stupidest thing I have read is that "wars are from the past and the economy is the future".

Is the trouble in Libya and elsewhere just a Holywood movie?

If militant Islam takes over in North Africa, the EU could always defend itself with croissants and really hot latte !

Anton, Bear's den
15-03-11, 12:11
United States of Europe (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22209)
Damn, I here more agree with different eurosceptics with their offer to rename modern EU into EUSSR (European Union of Socialist-State Republics) that will remind me about old kind days of Soviet Union :grin:

I bet Canucks are support me, is not it LeBrok???

Regulus
15-03-11, 14:25
Damn, I here more agree with different eurosceptics with their offer to rename modern EU into EUSSR (European Union of Socialist-State Republics) that will remind me about old kind days of Soviet Union :grin:

I bet Canucks are support me, is not it LeBrok???


Canucks and Russians could combine for one great hockey team.

Cambrius (The Red)
15-03-11, 15:05
An outrageously strong hockey team.

Anton, Bear's den
15-03-11, 17:27
I think there is no sense to change name "EU", no to USE, no to any other. It will look like cheap plagiarism and lack of fantasy / imagination. It also will not help to fix any real problems. What EU really need now is system of expenses control and debts of EU members. If you accepted one common currency then it's already pretty serious. Time of carefree "kindergarten" where no one was responsible for own actions is over. Nice example is event with Greece, if Germany and other members did not help Greece to pay taken debts then "Euro" money turned into one common grave for all. Because in case of Greek bankruptcy (country consist in euro zone) = default of the euro (it's very bad).


Canucks and Russians could combine for one great hockey team.

Yeah, this red maple leaf knows how to play. They defeated our team in Vancouver 7:4 (last Winter Olympics). Damn it!

Reinaert
15-03-11, 20:37
Haha.. Anglo American clowns are still busy to comment on Europe.
Just get the hell outta here!

The civil war in Libya is probably a dirty one. Israeli and the USA companies support Qaddafi for their own benefit.

Reinaert
15-03-11, 20:40
Grow up, I was having fun. On top of that, "The League or Extraordinary Gentlemen" was on tonight. Sean Connery uttered "Rule Britannia' when one of the bad guys died and the Union Jack fell on him and draped his head. It was almost too good to be coincidence.

Maybe you could try to admit to yourself that China's rise is precisely because they took on a tremendous amount of capitalism in their structure. Or was it communalism? (Note a favorite word of the subject)

China took on a tremendous amount of fascism in their structure.
Or you could call it national socialism.

It has nothing to do with communism or communalism.

sparkey
15-03-11, 20:48
China took on a tremendous amount of fascism in their structure.
Or you could call it national socialism.

It has nothing to do with communism or communalism.

Wait... China's economy has risen because they have become more fascist? That's how this reads.

Reinaert
15-03-11, 21:16
Wait... China's economy has risen because they have become more fascist? That's how this reads.

Yes, capitalism and fascism are one of a kind.
Exploiting people without mercy.

sparkey
15-03-11, 22:41
Yes, capitalism and fascism are one of a kind.
Exploiting people without mercy.

Okay, so you think that capitalism and fascism create a better economy, and that we should have left-wing government instead because, even though it creates a worse economy, it has other desirable effects. I disagree with your premise, but at least I think I get your point now.

Reinaert
16-03-11, 18:54
Okay, so you think that capitalism and fascism create a better economy, and that we should have left-wing government instead because, even though it creates a worse economy, it has other desirable effects. I disagree with your premise, but at least I think I get your point now.

No, you twist my point into the wrong direction.

A capitalist or fascist economy only benefits the people with power. At the cost of exploiting the working class. In China most people are poor, but a small minority is very rich. The same as the USA.

Economy isn't a thing you can measure. Capitalism measures an economy by looking at the stock markets, but that is a bag of hot air. Time and time again.

So a good economy is very complex.

A good economy will need to be more self supporting

World trade depends much too much on transport nowadays.
It's ridiculous to buy cheap goods in China, and transport the stuff via airways that don't even pay tax over their fuel!

sparkey
16-03-11, 19:17
No, you twist my point into the wrong direction.

Sorry, I was trying to understand it. :confused2: I understand it better now, thanks.


A capitalist or fascist economy only benefits the people with power. At the cost of exploiting the working class. In China most people are poor, but a small minority is very rich. The same as the USA.

Obviously, capitalism in particular reinforces existing wealth, and creates greater income disparities. But compared to systems that reinforce income equality at the expense of overall economic production, capitalism's creation of overall wealth tends to be more beneficial, due largely to charity. As an extreme example, Ethiopia has better income equality than the USA, but where would you rather be poor...? I'm not going to defend "pure capitalism" or say that the USA has the right balance, but the benefits of a good economy can be felt by more than the billionaires.


Economy isn't a thing you can measure. Capitalism measures an economy by looking at the stock markets, but that is a bag of hot air. Time and time again.

True... most measurements leave out important statistics, like long-term stability and potential for innovation, because those are contentious or difficult to measure in any meaningful sense. Employment and GDP can be good indicators, but relying on them too much can produce poor decisions. At the very least, public policy should probably be based less on long-term projections (which always seem to be wrong), and more on unified principles.

Bringing this back on topic, I think that the EU will become more of a unified market-based economy over time, including more traditionally socialistic states... no imminent demise of capitalism there...

edao
08-05-11, 18:47
"You cannot run a monetary union with the likes of Mr Sócrates, or with finance ministers who spread rumours about a break-up. Europe’s political elites are afraid to tell a truth that economic historians have known forever: that a monetary union without a political union is simply not viable. This is not a debt crisis. This is a political crisis. The eurozone will soon face the choice between an unimaginable step forward to political union or an equally unimaginable step back. We know Mr Schäuble has contemplated, and rejected, the latter. We also know that he prefers the former. It is time to say so."
read article (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3eb6bbc8-796c-11e0-86bd-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1LmMdzKLZ)

Reinaert
08-05-11, 19:27
Edao, sorry, but that isn't true!

I take Scotland as an example.

Many years Scotland was independent. Until the Scots (like the Dutch) got confronted with the power of the English Navy.
So they gave in to the English, to have a share in economic prosperity.
And so the United Kingdom was born.

What is this?
Pure blackmail.
From the English side.

The EU is totally different.

The Dutch people don't like the EU anymore.. Why?
The Dutch government and companies are gaining a lot from the EU.
The Dutch government has a policy to have a strong economy... And that's why..
The people suffer because of the high prices, high taxes, and they have to work their butts off to get a living.

So I think it's obvious to say.. Hey.. Go to hell, I am going to have a good day, and start living!

The Greeks and other nations that know how to have a good life are a good example for the rest of Europe.

Politics is costing Europe way too much money!

Mzungu mchagga
08-05-11, 20:58
"You cannot run a monetary union with the likes of Mr Sócrates, or with finance ministers who spread rumours about a break-up. Europe’s political elites are afraid to tell a truth that economic historians have known forever: that a monetary union without a political union is simply not viable. This is not a debt crisis. This is a political crisis. The eurozone will soon face the choice between an unimaginable step forward to political union or an equally unimaginable step back. We know Mr Schäuble has contemplated, and rejected, the latter. We also know that he prefers the former. It is time to say so."
read article (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3eb6bbc8-796c-11e0-86bd-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1LmMdzKLZ)



Well yeah, I totally agree! The only problem is, IMO, from what I've heard and read from people throughout Europe, from every single country, they simply don't want it!
Of course no one in the world wants his nation to be dominated by a higher force, whether it is the EU, the USA or any other country or organization in the world (YES, many Americans even fear the UN). It is a very natural emotion to preserve one own's independence and personal security, everything else only provides mistrust and fear of powerlessness. Also disgrace plays a role, even though most people don't want to admit it.

Now we are in the critical decision of either being dominated by a unity of European countries, but with the guarantee of preserving the independence of this region as a whole, or returning back to relatively powerless nation states, soon overrun by Asian economy and politics and as toys between the real world powers (USA, Russia, China perhaps also India). And yes, in this situation we'll be the lucky ones if USA will defend us against other agressors! I have become a pessimist the last few years and doubt that most Europeans have the ability to understand this and look far enough ahead.

Englishman
05-07-13, 02:51
Too many wannabe American British on this forum and in general, IMO I'm all for a United Europe.

Coolboygcp
13-08-13, 00:00
It's inevitable, that eventually the European Union will integrate further, and become it's own nation. However, do I believe it will happen in the near future?

No.

I believe maybe in 10-20 years, it will happen though.

Coolboygcp
13-08-13, 00:10
Too many wannabe American British on this forum and in general, IMO I'm all for a United Europe.

:box: Don't you even dare insult us wannabe Brits! I have English ancestry, and if I wish to be a wannabe British person, I may! :box:

Garrick
07-09-13, 01:23
Too many wannabe American British on this forum and in general, IMO I'm all for a United Europe.

United Europe is the best option. A lot of different options competing with each other (small countries with different interests, sometimes one country against another country) only reduces the competitiveness and strength of Europe global. Ex Yugoslavia is good example and had many advantages over the current small states, which are small economies, small markets, with a large bureaucratic apparatus, non-competitive, uninteresting for investors, etc.

Riccardo
21-09-13, 01:39
"You cannot run a monetary union with the likes of Mr Sócrates, or with finance ministers who spread rumours about a break-up. Europe’s political elites are afraid to tell a truth that economic historians have known forever: that a monetary union without a political union is simply not viable. This is not a debt crisis. This is a political crisis. The eurozone will soon face the choice between an unimaginable step forward to political union or an equally unimaginable step back. We know Mr Schäuble has contemplated, and rejected, the latter. We also know that he prefers the former. It is time to say so."
read article (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3eb6bbc8-796c-11e0-86bd-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1LmMdzKLZ)



Even if I'm late, 100% agree. You just wrote 2 years ago what I wanted to say now. This EU is a disaster, but this doesn't mean that it should be the end of the European political project, because now the EU lacks of politics. Governments want to follow euro-sceptic feelings to get some votes, destroying a great inheritance. Make European citizens and then make Europe.

intorg
19-11-13, 14:39
This is great idea. But before that there are some more countries like Turkey, Serbia, Israel, Georgia, Azerbaijan that should join to the EU otherwise the mentioned United States of Europe will lack power. With its well established organizations and powerpul ecomomy today EU is candidate to be rival for the US, Japan and China but there are some more futher steps before reaching to that point.


http://irglobal.blogspot.com/

Idun
30-11-13, 09:56
This is great idea. But before that there are some more countries like Turkey, Serbia, Israel, Georgia, Azerbaijan that should join to the EU otherwise the mentioned United States of Europe will lack power. With its well established organizations and powerpul ecomomy today EU is candidate to be rival for the US, Japan and China but there are some more futher steps before reaching to that point.


http://irglobal.blogspot.com/

Yes, that makes lot of sense to flood Europe with Asian immigrants.
Do you want to start a world war or something?

Florin C
05-01-14, 10:52
A political union is the only step forward, if Europe is to count on world level. We see the US dollar going down the drain, due to its' economic and social policy, and if you don't want the yuan as the next world currency, Europe should reinforce it's common currency, level its' fiscal policy, introduce a common language and so on.

But for that, the europeans should put aside their national narrow viewpoints and see the advantages of it. Instead of that, we see more and more segregation movements and tendencies, wrong steps in dealing with crises, and critics all around.

LeBrok
19-11-14, 22:42
. We see the US dollar going down the drain, due to its' economic and social policy, You said it half a century too soon. US economy is still the strongest in the world and dollar is going up, despite of new few trillion dollars in circulation since the recession.

Here is nice visualization how vital fiscal union is for Euro.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8xAXJx9WJ8

mihaitzateo
19-11-14, 22:54
You said it half a century too soon. US economy is still the strongest in the world and dollar is going up, despite of new few trillion dollars in circulation since the recession.

Here is nice visualization how vital fiscal union is for Euro.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8xAXJx9WJ8

.
US economy is lacking infrastructure to sustain it and when I say infrastructure I am referring to the US lame electrical current transportation network and to the lame US railways.
I do not think US economy is strongest in the world,the human capital is not well preserved,people are usually put to work too much and given too few vacation which makes them less creative and less efficient.

Yetos
19-11-14, 23:15
A political union is the only step forward, if Europe is to count on world level. We see the US dollar going down the drain, due to its' economic and social policy, and if you don't want the yuan as the next world currency, Europe should reinforce it's common currency, level its' fiscal policy, introduce a common language and so on.

But for that, the europeans should put aside their national narrow viewpoints and see the advantages of it. Instead of that, we see more and more segregation movements and tendencies, wrong steps in dealing with crises, and critics all around.

EU started as a coaltion for coal and steel, then became a community, then a union,

but Fiscal union puts a bomb in a basic arguement from the times of coaltiton,
the self command and autonomy of each state,
and a second is cases like LuxLeaks, taxation of BIG CORPORATIONS, which can gather rich in certain areas,

Europe is facing the 'ghost' of a possibly future creation.

the difference among Old and new world is that in Europe we are Europeans cause we are Deutsch Italians Polish Portoguese,
in USA except Dixiland (South) they are all primary USAers and then Californians or NYers etc

and that is a big problem, cause, for example, a Dutch policy for a subject lets say enviroment, can be hazzardous for an Austrian, or the policy of Italy for immigrations can hazzard Poland (I repeat as an example)

a Good example is the Cypriot sea and gass and oil deposits,
EU has not a policy, leaving Cyprus to make a stronger alliance with Israel and Egypt which are away from EU, and did not protect Cyprus inclusive zone from Turkey's searches,
in USA something like that would be an act of war. for example china to search the Alaska exclusive interest zone.

EU is about to collapse, or to overpass, her self, this decade is critical,

pock9999
30-07-15, 00:24
I would sooner poke my own eye balls out with a red hot poker than have the UK join a united States of Europe.The mere thought makes me cringe,as for that idiot Verhofstadt I just want Nigel Farage to lose it one day n just snap his neck.Britain benefits in NO way shape or form by being in the EU

pock9999
30-07-15, 00:26
The EU is already an international power that does so. It is currently the world's largest economy.
No 2 countries within the farse called the EU have large economies ,every other country is broke and we're paying for them .Get us out roll on 20q7 or maybe before

pock9999
30-07-15, 00:27
Good morning Maciamo,

That is a very good article from Guy Verhofstadt! Slowly but surely we have to become a United States of Europe.

Speeking for myself, I feel very European. Maybe because I come from such a small country?!
But there is only one thing that trouble me a little. The language will be English, in the future you will get a sort of European English.
I sincerely hope that French and German will stay, but I am also for Italian and Spanish. I guess that learning Spanish at school will become a must because of the countries in South America, but also in the USA 50% of the people speak Spanish. For us in Europe it would be sad if Frech and German will become lost languages.
Don't you agree?
No could not careless seems ironic really .You all will speak English and we won't be in the EU soon hahaha