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View Full Version : Forced and arranged marriage: a social issue for all



nurizeko
17-03-06, 13:20
Linky (http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=1&threadID=1318&edition=1&ttl=20060317110934&#paginator)


My son who is white fell in in love with a lovely muslim girl born in this country. They loved one another very much. When her parents found out about their relationship they told her she was going for a holiday to Bangladesh to visit relatives. We got one call from her and then she vanished. We tried to find out her whereabouts but failed. We found out a year later that she had been forced into a marriage. She is back here but her husband has been refused entry. My son was truly devastated. Even yet three years later, when my son is home, her parents send her out of town. My son has had to move on but the girl is left in limbo. What a waste!!

GLORIA MCGUIRE

This is but one quote from the have your say survey about the issue of arranged and forced marriages in the UK.

This also appears to me to be also about the wider issue of total lack on intergration and respect for the rule or law and social norms in a western society where minority groups come to reside.

And the above quote is also highly disturbing.


As a forum with many spouses of foreign women and men (mainly japanese or east asian i assume) this seems to reach deep inside me and pull at my concerns.

It also concerns an apparently deeply racist mindset of some members of minority groups, why is somehow a successful good white boy with all the means to provide a perfect future for an asian girl who has grown up in the same country worse then some pakistani or indian speaking dead-beat who would be lucky to land a job at a McDonalds?.

More important, if these groups are so racist and so utterly intolerant of other ways of lifes and beliefs and social norms and laws of the land, then why do they insist on comming to the west? and then ***** and fight when THEY themselves are at fault for not integrating?.

I've already had my Japanese girlfriend crying into my chest outside at night with and her mum trying to comfort her because of the incrediably rude and unacceptable commentary of her uncle and grandfather, but this was in their own country, i personally wonder when the west is going to grow some balls and learn that its going to have to grow some balls, saying everyone has the freedoms of a liberal democracy doesnt automatically mean perssistent abusers will stop forcing young girls into forced marriages, sometimes effectively abducting them to a foreign land and forcing a marriage.

I find the behaviours around honour killings, girl infanticide, forced marriages and the lot completely un-acceptable, so why doesnt our governments crack down on these abusers and teach them that things like murder, child abuse, and slavery are crimes in a modern democratic society?.

Why do our governments, especially the british, seem so scared of the highly flawed philosophy of political correctness, that they seem too paralyzed with fear to save these young people from a life of slavery and abuse?.

Why is it okay for these minority group parents to be so utterly racist, yet if white parents do such horrific things to stop their white daughter marrying an indian boy, she could call the police on them.

I emagine things like child abuse are serious crimes in the UK, Children have been taken away from parents by social services for less, so why do they get away with this behaviour?, why does britain seem apathetic to protecting the rights of its citizens?...not a comforting thought next time im in trouble abroad, the british government wont even help an abducted soutth-asian girl.


So what are your views on this?, as a forum with a high percentage of international marriages, i assume this speaks louder to us then the rest of western society.


One thing that grates me, some folk have been suggesting the law be changed so foreign spouses cant enter the UK, obvious opinions of ignorance, the law was designed to enable loving willing married couples to lvie together unhindered and un-descriminated by law, i feel the issue is the forced marriages and primitive practices of some minority racists, dont punish those of us in love and willing couples because of their ignorance, punish them.

dreamer
17-03-06, 13:36
Well...it sure is bad when your family is involved, forcing you to marry someone when you already have another person in your heart...

I can sort of relate to this since my parents wedding is an arranged one, but still they were willing to do so and neither of them was forced to marry the other.
The point is that it's impossible to control that. In the article's case, everything happened in a country where law is but a mere concept. She was taken back into her country but once there there was nobody who could have helped her to escape her fate.
For my part, my mother used to tell me repeatedly never to date a foreign girl, but she now knows that she can't control my life and that if I ever want to date or marry a girl, she wouldn't be able to stop me to do so.
However the main problem is that it's impossible to set universal rules and make them apply.

Kinsao
17-03-06, 13:54
I can sort of relate to this since my parents wedding is an arranged one, but still they were willing to do so and neither of them was forced to marry the other.
The point is that it's impossible to control that.
That's a really good point, the difference between a forced marriage and an arranged marriage.
Forced marriage is bad, it is unacceptable to me.
Arranged marriages can turn out bad, but they can also turn out positive, depending on being handled with sensitivity and not just being a cover for a forced marriage.

I'm glad things worked out for your parents! :-)

nurizeko
17-03-06, 15:52
Im just saying, if kinsao's family kidnapped her and whisked her to a foreign country for a forced marriage, the british government would be all over their ass so quickly they wouldnt know what hit them.

Asians "culture" is no excuse.

dreamer
17-03-06, 18:35
That's a really good point, the difference between a forced marriage and an arranged marriage.
Forced marriage is bad, it is unacceptable to me.
Arranged marriages can turn out bad, but they can also turn out positive, depending on being handled with sensitivity and not just being a cover for a forced marriage.
I'm glad things worked out for your parents! :-)

It sure could have been a lot worse but there's never been any love between my parents and even after 25 years it's not gonna change ^^
As for Forcing someone into a wedding, I too think this should be punished by law everywhere in the world. But once again there's some kind of family pressure involved. For example if I was ever forced into this kind of thing, I'd go away trying to escape my family but I wouldn't go as far as to try sending my parents to jail. Depending on your education, it's also a difficult choice : family or yourself?

nurizeko
17-03-06, 18:46
Well, yourself obviously, a parent is meant to love you. and the things they do against your wish are meant to be for your own good like making you take medicine.

However, forcing a feeling thinking young adult to marry against her wishes, no tangible positive consiquence except showing their utter lack of respect for their own child and not doing you any good, especially emotionally, is bad and is what i would call massive neglect and malicious.

a parent who puts "culture" and their total racism and pro-slavery mind ahead of love and parental responsibility dont obviously care.

Hard but in that situation you must choose yourself.

dreamer
17-03-06, 20:21
Somehow I'm glad my parents aren't the kind to force me to date/marrysomeone -_-
Sigh...still I wonder how they'd react if I ever was to bring a guy home saying "Mom, dad, this is my boyfriend."

mcanangel
17-03-06, 21:31
It just seems like such a waste to me for parents to do that. I mean marriage should be for love I think. However if 2 people both decide that they want an arranged marriage then it is acceptable, but forcing someone to marry is so stupid. It all has to do with the stupid fear what is different or you don't understand. sad I think. It would be nice if that kind of thing never happened, but then it would be a perfect world, and that will never happen as long as people are intemidated or scared of what they don't understand, or of that which is different.

Supervin
17-03-06, 23:02
This also appears to me to be also about the wider issue of total lack on intergration and respect for the rule or law and social norms in a western society where minority groups come to reside.
Yes, it is a lack of integration per se, but realistically, you can't expect many of such immigrants to, artificially, have their ways changed completely upon arriving in the UK - those people have had their customs for their entire lives. It would take a long, long time.

I wouldn't call it a disrespect of rules and laws because arranged marriages are not outlawed as of yet. However, even if outlawed, this would be very difficult to enforce. The law provides for the right to a private life and in recent years have been further enhanced by the European Convention of Human Rights. Consider yourself lucky of the fact that you don't have abusive parents that most people take for granted.


It also concerns an apparently deeply racist mindset of some members of minority groups, why is somehow a successful good white boy with all the means to provide a perfect future for an asian girl who has grown up in the same country worse then some pakistani or indian speaking dead-beat who would be lucky to land a job at a McDonalds?
How do you know that the Indian or Pakistani in question isn't better and more successful than the 'successful good white boy' you describe?


More important, if these groups are so racist and so utterly intolerant of other ways of lifes and beliefs and social norms and laws of the land, then why do they insist on comming to the west? and then ***** and fight when THEY themselves are at fault for not integrating?
They've mostly come for a higher quality of life than their home country. They've come to escape from possible injustices or bad government back home etc.

And about complaints, there are two sides - you can't be completely sure who is at fault. On the one hand, it could be ethnic minorities who don't put any effort into integration; on the other, it could be that despite efforts put in, the local society discriminates against them. It really depends on the particular instance.


i personally wonder when the west is going to grow some balls and learn that its going to have to grow some balls, saying everyone has the freedoms of a liberal democracy doesnt automatically mean perssistent abusers will stop forcing young girls into forced marriages...
You can't have everything. In a society based on rights and freedoms, the State will naturally not want to interfere with the lives of individuals. This non-intervention would inevitably leave room for abuse.


I find the behaviours around honour killings, girl infanticide, forced marriages and the lot completely un-acceptable, so why doesnt our governments crack down on these abusers and teach them that things like murder, child abuse, and slavery are crimes in a modern democratic society?
Here you're blowing things out of proportion.

All the other behaviors are crimes punishable to the fullest extent of the law.
Arranged marriages haven't been outlawed yet. Even if outlawed, this would only be a civil law matter governed by family law. Arranged marriages hardly come anywhere near criminal.


Why do our governments, especially the british, seem so scared of the highly flawed philosophy of political correctness, that they seem too paralyzed with fear to save these young people from a life of slavery and abuse?
I can understand your sympathy, but you're demanding too much of the Government.

Arranged marriages that affect only a certain number of individuals don't come close to being on the top of the agenda for them.


Why is it okay for these minority group parents to be so utterly racist, yet if white parents do such horrific things to stop their white daughter marrying an indian boy, she could call the police on them.
Well actually the Indian counterpart could do the same thing if s/he had the guts. Likewise, not all white women stand up to their parents either.


I emagine things like child abuse are serious crimes in the UK, Children have been taken away from parents by social services for less, so why do they get away with this behaviour?, why does britain seem apathetic to protecting the rights of its citizens?...not a comforting thought next time im in trouble abroad, the british government wont even help an abducted soutth-asian girl.
They're not children in most cases.


views...?
I think enacting to outlaw arranged marriages would be a step forward but enforcing this would be a nightmare. You would need restraining orders to stop parents from doing anything - this is likely to result in a breakdown of a family. Furthermore, people can still find ways to deceive their sons/daughters and 'deport' them back to their country of origin to force a marriage on them. Still, perhaps such a provision can deter a small number of these practices.

Mitsuo
17-03-06, 23:37
That's horrible. I am glad that I am not in that kind of situation. Hopefully I will never know what that's like.

My Grandma, doesn't like my mom because she is white. My dad's Japanese. She wanted everyone to marry within their race. But No one did. She will just have to suck it up.

Ma Cherie
18-03-06, 00:10
Forced marriages and things like is something I am concerned about. But I want to point out something, yes to us as Westners it may seem primative to arrange marriages. But I will also say this, we as Westners can't expect people from different cultures to just accept that our way of life may seem better (in theory at least). Do I think people should get married out of obligation? No. Because when we do this, we're making ourselves out to be superior to other cultures, and Western society has a bad reputation for that.
The best thing the West can do, is teach these people about cultural norms that aren't accepted in Western society. And why does it seem to me that I hear poeple complaining about how certain minority groups refusing to integrate? Has anyone ever questioned why they won't integrate? Maybe it's not because they don't find Western values bad, perhaps it's because people in Western societies still have some prejudices towards members of a minority group. And the West is supposed to be the enlightened.


And I'm beginning to feel that what's going on in muslim communities such as honor killings, etc. is giving the West more of a reason to be intolerant towards this paticular group. I'm sorry to say this, but I feel that when we do here stories of terrorist attacks and things that happen in the muslim community it gives us more of a reason not to like them, and thus we don't want to learn anything muslims, because we're stuck in this cycle of the negative stereotypes.

PRIZMATIC
18-03-06, 02:09
This question from the category "ambiguous"...:blush:
In the Bible in a number of texts it is possible to track such idea - " there is a culture of this or this nation and there is a culture of this or that family or the person " - in it and the choice will consist...
The person is free to choose, but its choice does not mean the consent with it of others...
I do not see "conflict" in it...
The motivation of this or that act is only reflection of that culture from which the person proceeds...
And the truth consists that at times is the conflict of cultures which is conducted with people among themselves...
The god has made us " different peoples " - in order "we" have found " true values " for all people and cultures...
But while - people have succeeded only in the other... :angel: :smoke:

nurizeko
18-03-06, 11:45
European Convention of Human Rights.
The right to choose who you marry when where and why?.

the State will naturally not want to interfere with the lives of individuals.
Except forcing ID cards on you, Telling men they are rapists in ad campaigns, banning smoking in public spaces, general attempts at nanny-laws.
At least my government is hardly what one would call non-interfering. Infact it likes making stabs at telling us how to live our private non-governmentally concerning lives.
If you can ban smoking in public places for the sake of the health of those around you, they can punish people who push others into forced marriage, and arguably, slavery, abduction, and breaking quite a good few human rights i would emagine is arguably more serious then smoking around others.

They're not children in most cases.
Neither am i, i still expect the british government to do all it can to protect me should i get in trouble abroad.
I dont want to beat down the minority cultures, far from it, i just want them to recognise we have laws and human rights and that their abuses are still abuses and should stop.
I dont mean to say all muslims or indians have forced marriages or behave like this, as usual its just the vocal minority of the minority, but, honestly, i love elarning about the world and other places and peoples and cultures BUT, it will never excuse them from forcing children and young adults into forced marriages. Never.
As i have said, the Uk seems scared to impose rule of law on some for the fear of looking intolerant to other cultures and people.
Tough, we have rule of law here, for the benefit and protection of all british citizens.
Forced marriages are wrong and should end. Period.

dreamer
18-03-06, 21:35
I totally agree but in many cultures, the family's autority is absolute and there is very few one can do...