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Maciamo
21-05-06, 23:57
BBC News : Montenegro 'chooses independence' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5003220.stm)


Montenegro has voted for independence from its union with Serbia, according to unofficial projections.

If confirmed, the vote would erase the last vestige of the former Yugoslavia.

I am in favour of the independence of Montenegro, the same way as I am for the independence of Kosovo.

bossel
22-05-06, 03:36
I wonder if at least this split will come about peacefully.

Mycernius
23-05-06, 17:07
It looks like Europe has gained yet another independant state in the Balkans as Montenegro has voted for independance from Serbia. Serbia has accepted the referendum see here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5009242.stm)for more
Fair enough they want independance, but the next thing they'll want to do it join the EU. Leave a small union to gain their own government and then try and join a larger union, which will end up dictating on how to run your country on various matters.

Duo
24-05-06, 11:17
It's different....with serbia they were not equal...pretty much never have been. They don't really have any benefits from being with Serbia as opposed to joining the EU. Serbia has abused the former yugoslav republics too much for any of them to wish and have to be under their dominion. I'm glad that montenegro will get independence and i hope kosovo shall get its soon as well. It would be a nice ending in the sad 90's chapter of Balkan history.

Maciamo
08-11-06, 18:45
Kosovo now seems almost certain to secede from Serbia :

The Economist : Serbia and Kosovo ; A province prepares to depart (http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8115800)

ricecake
09-11-06, 08:51
I recognize this country name through my lifetime hobby of stamp collecting,it was once categorized as " dead nation " in the philatelic world for over a century.

It's interest to read more and more formerly dead nations or territories swallowed up by powerful neigbors gradually regain their sovereignty.

Maciamo
09-11-06, 10:08
I recognize this country name through my lifetime hobby of stamp collecting,it was once categorized as " dead nation " in the philatelic world for over a century.
It's interest to read more and more formerly dead nations or territories swallowed up by powerful neigbors gradually regain their sovereignty.
Are you talking about about Montenegro or Kosovo ? When was either of them independent before (to print stamps) ?

ricecake
09-11-06, 10:24
Are you talking about about Montenegro or Kosovo ?

When was either of them independent before (to print stamps) ?





Montenegro,not Kosovo.

I've vague memory now since many years passed I last saw postage stamps imprinted with Montenegro,were issued as either a nation or a territory.I have to look that up in next copy of subscribed weekly Linn's stamp newspaper,then I can confirm it.

GorazdR
21-11-06, 16:20
I totally agree wit Duo's post. My country gained independance from former Yugoslavia 16 years ago and it was the best decision me coult have made. Too much money went to Belgrade with no apparent benefit. We are now EU members and on 1st January Eurozone members.

Things are really complicated, politicaly, in Serbia. kosovo independance is pending and Serbia won't, in my opinion, let that happen. The radicals threatened armed conflict if Kosovo secedes.

As for Montenegro, I'm sure that there will not be any conflicts. Serbs have other problems and Montenegro was never percieved as part of Serbia, wheres kosovo is a birthplace of Serbian nation.

Maciamo
21-11-06, 17:31
Serbia won't have the choice but let Kosovo gain its independence. The Eu will pressure them on that issue. What could be worse for Serbia but be isolated within Europe ?

Duo
25-11-06, 04:23
As for Montenegro, I'm sure that there will not be any conflicts. Serbs have other problems and Montenegro was never percieved as part of Serbia, wheres kosovo is a birthplace of Serbian nation.


Says who ? Is funny like other slovenes i've talked to are quite not so enthusiastic about Kosovo being independent. THey still tell me that Kosovo was Serbian when there are enough historical facts to disprove that. It's just weird cuz slovenians started the whole break up of yugoslavia yet they dont seem so keen on this particular independence. Coherent thinking would let me to beleive that knowing what rule under Belgrade was there would be a bit more assistance or rather support for this particular issue.

Duo
25-11-06, 04:24
Serbia won't have the choice but let Kosovo gain its independence. The Eu will pressure them on that issue. What could be worse for Serbia but be isolated within Europe ?


And even just as important Serbia doesn't control the territory anymore. There is not much they can do about it. Try an invasion and a fight with NATO forces?
Just as the big powers granted Kosovo to Serbia they are taking it away again

Maciamo
25-11-06, 12:07
There is not much they can do about it. Try an invasion and a fight with NATO forces?

Not likely. :D

Maciamo
18-02-08, 20:11
It's done. Yesterday was Kosovo's turn to split from Serbia, almost 2 years after Montenegro.

This makes of Kosovo of one the smallest European countries (3x smaller than Belgium in land area and 5x less population-wise). If Belgium splits in two, Wallonia and Flanders would still be bigger. ;-)

Let's see now if they will merge Kosovo with Albania. That seems like the most logical thing to do, but I am not an expert on the matter.

BigSmoke
23-02-08, 02:26
Kosovo is not the smallest in Europe,Liechtenstein,Luxembourg,San Marino,Holy See,Monaco and Andorra are smaller.Kosovo is about 11000 km2 but Andorra is less than 1000.
I trully believe that Croatia will found the way to recognize Kosovo.

Maciamo
24-02-08, 12:59
Kosovo is not the smallest in Europe,Liechtenstein,Luxembourg,San Marino,Holy See,Monaco and Andorra are smaller.Kosovo is about 11000 km2 but Andorra is less than 1000.
I trully believe that Croatia will found the way to recognize Kosovo.
This is why I wrote "one the smallest" which has a completely different meaning from just "smallest". Each word is worth something.

Anyway, it is hard to see Andorra, Monaco, San Marino, the Vatican or Lichtenstein as actual "countries" when they have less independence or less power than some federal states. These countries have no currency of their own, no proper army or police, and lack most ministries and institutions found in bigger countries. So they are more like semi-autonomous regions of France, Italy and Switzerland than "countries". I prefer to place them in the same category of "dependent states" as the Faroe Islands, Greenland, the Isle of Man, Jersey & Guernesey, Gibraltar, etc.

Luxembourg is the smallest "functional" country in Europe.

Atzerrian
20-07-10, 22:37
I wonder if there are any Albanians or Kosovars here that have any information regarding this conflict.

YLLIRJANIngaYLLIRIA
05-09-10, 02:33
I wonder if there are any Albanians or Kosovars here that have any information regarding this conflict.


What do you need to know? I can tell you everything.


Albanians are descendants of the Illyrians, the most ancient group of Indo Europeans that controlled the entire balkans.

In the 7th century AD, Slavic barbarians invaded and killed off most of the Illyrians, or assimilated them, except for 1 tribe, the Albanians, who managed to survive to this day.

Kosovo in Albanian is Dardania, which is an ancient Albanian Illyrian word. This land was always Albanian territory, until 1912 when Serbs stole it with the support of Russia, France, Germany, and England.


Serbs also commited mass crimes and killed thousands of innocent Albanian civilians to try and "cleanse" them out of the land but it didn't work.


As of February 2nd 2008, Kosova is the newest independent Nation in the world.


Now we are only waiting to enter the UN, which is being blocked by Russia.

iapodos
05-09-10, 22:03
Kosovo or with full and official name: Kosovo and Metochia. Kosovo derived from Kosovo (polje) means Field of Black birds on Serbian. Metochia is greek word for monastery property. Every village, every hill, every river on Kosovo has serbian name. Kosovo was center of Serbian medieval state. All serbian cultural, historical monuments are located on Kosovo, and not only that, Kosovo has special place in Serbian national poems as the place of suffering and ressurection. It was simbol of european Christian resistance to Otoman Turks.
To stole Kosovo from Serbs is like stole Canterbery from English people, Jerusalem from Jews.
Over the centuries Albanian clans as muslims and Turk allies were settled on that holy serbian fertile land. They burned christian churches, raped christian girls, killed christian men forcefully occupying their properties and year by year, century by century they gained majority on Kosovo.
On the end of story, only with help of Nato air force, Albanians became rulers of Kosovo, killing and deporting a few Serbs that survived. Serbian monasteries, under Unesco protection, are the only religious objects in Europe today protected day and night by Nato soldiers from wild Albanians which tried several times to burn it.
And that is the true about Kosovo today. It is stolen teritory. Main thieves: Albanians, main colaborators: EU, Nato and United States.

Aristander
06-09-10, 00:54
I fear for the Balkans. I hope against hope that the people of the various "nations" can hold it together and bury old hatreds and inequalities and live peacefully next to each other. I am afraid that within a few years the old hatreds and unhealed wounds will end up in renewed violence.
I think that the only way that will not happen if there is a very strong stance by the EU to try and keep the peace. It would be a shame for the governments of Europe to back away and rely on NATO or the UN to try and maintain order.

Besir Bajrami
06-09-10, 05:22
Kosovo or with full and official name: Kosovo and Metochia. Kosovo derived from Kosovo (polje) means Field of Black birds on Serbian. Metochia is greek word for monastery property. Every village, every hill, every river on Kosovo has serbian name. Kosovo was center of Serbian medieval state. All serbian cultural, historical monuments are located on Kosovo, and not only that, Kosovo has special place in Serbian national poems as the place of suffering and ressurection. It was simbol of european Christian resistance to Otoman Turks.
To stole Kosovo from Serbs is like stole Canterbery from English people, Jerusalem from Jews.
Over the centuries Albanian clans as muslims and Turk allies were settled on that holy serbian fertile land. They burned christian churches, raped christian girls, killed christian men forcefully occupying their properties and year by year, century by century they gained majority on Kosovo.
On the end of story, only with help of Nato air force, Albanians became rulers of Kosovo, killing and deporting a few Serbs that survived. Serbian monasteries, under Unesco protection, are the only religious objects in Europe today protected day and night by Nato soldiers from wild Albanians which tried several times to burn it.
And that is the true about Kosovo today. It is stolen teritory. Main thieves: Albanians, main colaborators: EU, Nato and United States.

Why you just dont Stop whith your well known serbian propaganda to present the occupier like e victim. All the world knows now that you south slavs came(invasion) in Illyrian(Balkan) peninsula from VI-VII century onwards. And changing the Illyrians, Dardanians... (Albanians) toponyms, to slavic and that does not mean that you are there before albanians.
And one more thing: Stop using the religion to make anti-albanian propaganda, because the world knows that albanians accept christianity from the I century (before slavs) and we change our religion as many times as is necessary to disringuish from the occupant (as you know-We have a survival history).
We have now 3 religions operating in harmony, because the "nation" concept to us, is more important than the religion.
P.S: Stop ruining all topics here in this wonderful forum, whith your propaganda that does not drink water anymore like before. Albanians does not have propaganda in their culture but that doesn't mean that "objectivity" will stay indifferent anymore.

how yes no 2
14-12-10, 03:55
It's different....with serbia they were not equal...pretty much never have been. They don't really have any benefits from being with Serbia as opposed to joining the EU. Serbia has abused the former yugoslav republics too much for any of them to wish and have to be under their dominion. I'm glad that montenegro will get independence and i hope kosovo shall get its soon as well. It would be a nice ending in the sad 90's chapter of Balkan history.
lol, what a bunch of propaganda non-sense coming from being brain-washed for years with mainstream west media, black and white picture, about evil Serbs and good everyone else...
...
I lived in Serbia...
...
in fact, in so called communism (or socialism as it was called there) Serbs were most oppressed as a nation simply because they were most populous, next most oppressed were Croatians... while e.g. Slovenians were, taking into account their low numbers, much more influential than they should have been, while Albanians benefited the most from economical help of others that was given to most poor parts...

Tito, life long ruler of comunist (or more precisely socialist) Yugoslavia was half-Croat, half-Slovenian...
only Serbs who could advance in comunist party were the ones who were not feeling as Serbs at all, who were international comunist oriented...

in fact, during communism most of top managers in Serbia were from Montenegro, as they did stick together and push each other...
even Milosevic and his closest colaborators origin from Montenegro...

and btw. that Milosevic was probably less guilty for crisis and wars in ex-Yu than leadership of some western countries, neo-nazi Croatian leadership, and NATO strategy planners who did see Milosevic as pro-Russian comunist and Serbs (being ortodox, Slavic and historically freedom striving nation) as little Russians....

I will skip explaining how surprisingly all the tragical incidents used to punish Serbs were mostly media staged... and will use just an episode to illustrate the role of USA in starting the war in Bosnia:


The Carrington-Cutileiro peace plan, named for its authors Lord Carrington and Portuguese ambassador Jorge Cutileiro, resulted from the EC Peace Conference held in February 1992 in an attempt to prevent Bosnia-Herzegovina sliding into war. It proposed ethnic power-sharing on all administrative levels and the devolution of central government to local ethnic communities. However, all Bosnia-Herzegovina's districts would be classified as Muslim, Serb or Croat under the plan, even where no ethnic majority was evident.
On 18 March 1992, all three sides signed the agreement; Alija Izetbegović for the Bosniaks, Radovan Karadžić for the Serbs and Mate Boban for the Croats.
On 28 March 1992, however, Izetbegović withdrew his signature and declared his opposition to any type of division of Bosnia, after meeting with then US ambassador to Yugoslavia, Warren Zimmermann, in Sarajevo.
What was said and by whom remains unclear. Zimmerman denies that he told Izetbegovic that if he withdrew his signature, the United States would grant recognition to Bosnia as an independent state. What is indisputable is that Izetbegovic, that same day, withdrew his signature and renounced the agreement..[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_plans_offered_before_and_during_the_Bosnian_ War


Serbia won't have the choice but let Kosovo gain its independence. The Eu will pressure them on that issue. What could be worse for Serbia but be isolated within Europe ?
worse would be to give away its birthplace part of the land in order to be new Bulgaria and Romania whom noone really wants in EU....


What do you need to know? I can tell you everything.
Albanians are descendants of the Illyrians, the most ancient group of Indo Europeans that controlled the entire balkans.
In the 7th century AD, Slavic barbarians invaded and killed off most of the Illyrians, or assimilated them, except for 1 tribe, the Albanians, who managed to survive to this day.
Kosovo in Albanian is Dardania, which is an ancient Albanian Illyrian word. This land was always Albanian territory, until 1912 when Serbs stole it with the support of Russia, France, Germany, and England.

Khm, I think story you tell is just fake story you've been thought to believe in, in order to be able to fanatically hate Serbs...
Actually, there is no proof that Albanians origin from Illyrians, though I agree that as assumption it makes some sense...
Illyrians retreated from most of ex-Yu much before arrival of Slavs... they were not even mentioned in history for like 6-7 centuries before supposed arrival of Serbs...

in fact, according to historian Strabo (63/64 BC – ca. AD 24) Illyrians were destroyed well before his time...


I shall first describe Illyria, which approaches close to the Danube, and to the Alps which lie between Italy and Germany, taking their commencement from the lake in the territory of the Vindelici, Rhæti, and Helvetii.7 [2]
The Daci depopulated a part of this country in their wars with the Boii and Taurisci, Keltic tribes whose chief was Critasirus. The Daci claimed the country, although it was separated from them by the river Parisus,8 which flows from the mountains to the Danube, near the Galatæ Scordisci, a people who lived intermixed with the Illyrian and the Thracian tribes. The Illyrians were destroyed by the Daci, while the Scordisci were frequently their allies.
The rest of the country as far as Segestica,9 and the Danube, towards the north and east, is occupied by Pannonii, but they extend farther in an opposite direction.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0239:book=7:chapter= 5&highlight=
Strabo (63/64 BC – ca. AD 24) - Geographica

But how to explain that to several generations of Albanians who learned in their "schools" as basic fact how they are Illyrians and Dardanians and that evil Serbs did kill innocent Illyrians to steal their land which they have all right to claim back...

Albanians were not really threatened by Milosevic's regime... that was staged thing...at least in the begining... it was about their request to get republic (in order to get right to separate) and their choice to play victim by refusing to participate in political system and by refusing education in which they will not learn about evil Serbs bashing poor Illyrians in 7th century (which never happened as Illyrians were not there and as Serbs settled area peacefully in abandoned lands given to them by Byzantine emperor) ...

anyway, as a result of political decision of Albanians (which from this point of view turned out to be wise one, though the whole game they played was ultimately dishonest) two parallel worlds existed in Kosovo, two parallel school systems, political systems, medical systems, media systems,,... which is very ill situation, but Milosevic was happy as it did allow him to get 1/3 of votes in Serbian parliament just from votes from Kosovo (as Albanians ignored elections and Kosovo Serbs adored him because in previous comunism time they were heavily oppressed by Albanian community comunist leadership of autonomy area... in fact, they were so oppressed that Milosevic did manage to "buy" them by promising that no one will be allowed to physically molest them / beat them anymore... soon after he used legal means to take over political power in Kosovo and he kept power due to the decision of Albanians to boycott the system until they get republic / independence)

how yes no 2
14-12-10, 21:40
anyway, despite all obstacles there is slowly emerging truth about the people who were during the Balkan wars in western media depicted as noble heroes fighting for freedom against villain Serbs ....



Kosovo's prime minister is the head of a "mafia-like" Albanian group responsible for smuggling weapons, drugs and human organs through eastern Europe, according to a Council of Europe inquiry report on organised crime.

Hashim Thaçi is identified as "the boss" of a network that began operating criminal rackets in the run-up to the 1999 Kosovo war, and has held powerful sway over the country's government since.

The report of the two-year inquiry, which cites FBI and other intelligence sources, has been obtained by the Guardian. It names Thaçi as having over the last decade exerted "violent control" over the heroin trade.

....

While deploring Serb atrocities, Marty said the international community chose to ignore suspected war crimes by the KLA, "placing a premium instead on achieving some degree of short-term stability".

He concludes that during the Kosovo war and for almost a year after, Thaçi's forces meted out revenge against Serbs, Roma and ethnic-Albanians accused of "collaborating" with the enemy.

Thaçi and four other members of the Drenica Group are named in the report as having carried out "assassinations, detentions, beatings and interrogations". This same hardline KLA faction has held considerable power in Kosovo's government over the last decade, with the support of western powers keen to ensure stability in the fledgling state.

The report paints a picture in which ex-KLA commanders have played a crucial role in the region's criminal activity over the last decade.

It says: "In confidential reports spanning more than a decade, agencies dedicated to combating drug smuggling in at least five countries have named Hashim Thaçi and other members of his Drenica Group as having exerted violent control over the trade in heroin and other narcotics."

Marty adds: "Thaçi and these other Drenica Group members are consistently named as "key players" in intelligence reports on Kosovo's mafia-like structures of organised crime. I have examined these diverse, voluminous reports with consternation and a sense of moral outrage."

His inquiry was commissioned after the former chief prosecutor for war crimes at The Hague, Carla Del Ponte, said she had been prevented from investigating senior KLA officials.

Her most shocking claim, which she said required further investigation, was that the KLA smuggled captive Serbs across the border into Albania, where their organs were harvested.

The report, which states that it is not a criminal investigation and unable to pronounce judgments of guilt or innocence, gives some credence to Del Ponte's claims. It finds the KLA did hold mostly Serb captives in a secret network of six detention facilities in northern Albania.

Thaçi's Drenica Group "bear the greatest responsibility" for the ad-hoc prisons and the fate of those held in them.

They include a "handful" of prisoners said to have been transferred to a makeshift prison just north of Tirana, where they were killed for their kidneys.

The report states: "As and when the transplant surgeons were confirmed to be in position and ready to operate, the captives were brought out of the 'safe house' individually, summarily executed by a KLA gunman, and their corpses transported swiftly to the operating clinic.''

The same Kosovan and foreign individuals involved in the macabre killings are linked to the Medicus case, the report finds.
....



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/14/kosovo-prime-minister-llike-mafia-boss

iapodos
17-12-10, 11:28
I am in favour of the independence of Montenegro, the same way as I am for the independence of Kosovo.

Short BBC report for proponents of Kosovo independance.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/9294175.stm

Reinaert
18-12-10, 16:14
Short BBC report for proponents of Kosovo independance.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/9294175.stm

Don't buy this nonsense iapodos.

The Brits and Americans played a very wicked role in ex Yugoslavia.

The American government in those days wanted to establish peace between Israel and the Palestinians. So they had contacts with the KLA to support them.
Together with Al Qaeda agents. The KLA was also financed by countries like Saudi Arabia.
The civil war in Yugoslavia was ignited by the German minister of foreign affairs back then. Slovenia got weapons for their police force smuggled in from Austria. And so Slovenia went for independence.

That triggered a series of other bombs to explode.

Organized looting of human body parts?
Bullshit.
Too complicated to shoot them, and then sort them out.

It would be more like the Americans do..
Put them in jail or camps..
Do tests on them..
Execute them when organs are needed.

I guess the Chinese do it that way too.
:innocent:

iapodos
18-12-10, 18:50
Don't buy this nonsense iapodos.
The Brits and Americans played a very wicked role in ex Yugoslavia.
The American government in those days wanted to establish peace between Israel and the Palestinians. So they had contacts with the KLA to support them.
Together with Al Qaeda agents. The KLA was also financed by countries like Saudi Arabia.
The civil war in Yugoslavia was ignited by the German minister of foreign affairs back then. Slovenia got weapons for their police force smuggled in from Austria. And so Slovenia went for independence.
That triggered a series of other bombs to explode.
Organized looting of human body parts?
Bullshit.
Too complicated to shoot them, and then sort them out.
It would be more like the Americans do..
Put them in jail or camps..
Do tests on them..
Execute them when organs are needed.
I guess the Chinese do it that way too.
:innocent:

Nonsense or not, those hijacked Serbs have never been found...

I agree with the most of what you have said., but I think that KLA was able to comitt such kind of crime. All they need was just a group of surgeons and free place (northern Albania) to do so. Sex traffiking and drug trade, trade with human body parts, if you have good criminal infractracture throughout of Europe and Middle East, it is not important what is the object of trade.

What I was trying to emphasyze here is effort of some intelectuals on this forume and in Europe which for a long time trying to assure us how such kind of criminal structure deserve independent state. Independent state, for what? For trading with human organs? Hasim Thaci, prime ministar of so called Republic of Kosovo in this Report of Dick Marty, which was accepted by Counsil of Europe, was described as main organizator and head of criminal beast.

Bogdan
18-12-10, 22:37
KLA are nothing but narcoterrorists hence why they where on the FBI's list of terrorist groups involved in the drug trade up until 1998. As for indepenadance that wont be lasting to long i dont think they have set a very dangerous precedant especially when you have some EU(SSR) countries approaching 20% muslim and relations between the two arent getting any better

Bogdan
18-12-10, 22:45
Are you talking about about Montenegro or Kosovo ? When was either of them independent before (to print stamps) ?

Montenegro was an independant nation from 1400's to 1918.... or most of its modern history

Bogdan
18-12-10, 23:16
I totally agree wit Duo's post. My country gained independance from former Yugoslavia 16 years ago and it was the best decision me coult have made. Too much money went to Belgrade with no apparent benefit. We are now EU members and on 1st January Eurozone members.

Things are really complicated, politicaly, in Serbia. kosovo independance is pending and Serbia won't, in my opinion, let that happen. The radicals threatened armed conflict if Kosovo secedes.

As for Montenegro, I'm sure that there will not be any conflicts. Serbs have other problems and Montenegro was never percieved as part of Serbia, wheres kosovo is a birthplace of Serbian nation.

Slovenia broke off from yugoslavia because milosevic cut your customs funding seeing as all the customs collected on any border in yugoslavia went to slovenia. When YOU quite recieving money from yugoslavia you decided to break off not vice versa...

how yes no 2
19-12-10, 02:22
Slovenia broke off from yugoslavia because milosevic cut your customs funding seeing as all the customs collected on any border in yugoslavia went to slovenia. When YOU quite recieving money from yugoslavia you decided to break off not vice versa...
never heard of this...
and do not believe it can be truth...
Slovenians collecting customs on all borders would just be insane...

Slovenians had reasons to separate...they were economically ahead of the rest and felt others as weight placed upon them...

point is in the way they separated...
they made media war in which they were good guys who are attacked, while in reality they encircled military barracks, cutting their food and water supply and shooting on Yugoslav army units made at the time mostly out of 18 year old kids who were serving army in Slovenia...
very brave...

they "won" the war... in reality, if Yugoslav army had a grain of wickedness that was attributed to it in west media, they would respond to this by flattening some town with ground and threat to flatten all of Slovenia (which could be done in few hours) if Slovenia's politicians do not order stop of the attacks... in fact, this is probably what any army would do... but Yugoslav army was based on ideological concept of brotherhood of Yugoslav nations...

so, they just tried to resist attack in surrounded barracks...after 10 days of being surrounded in military barracks, and of being targets for snipers of Slovenian newly formed army, Yugoslav army just retreated to the rest of Yugoslavia... in fact, any army in the world would react on such attack with full force... "wicked" JNA did not react at all... they allowed Slovenian hunters (blinded with hate and fear spread by media in years before) to shoot down 44 kids serving in the army, to wound another 146 and to molest around 5000 who surrendered....

with Croatia was different, because there lived big Serbian minority that was majority in up to 1/3 of Croatian territory.... clashes started after Serbs were kicked from status of nation in Croatia and put into status of being minority... in their view (which may or may not be correct), Croatia with its new neo-nazi leadership was on the road to finish what it has started in second world war when it was nazi ally who treated local Serbs with moto: "kill 1/3, deport 1/3, and convert to catholics the remaining 1/3" and who did that fairly according to the plan at least with the killing part... in first months of that war, Yugoslav army was even playing role of buffer between two sides... which was weird role as it by than consisted mainly of Serbs, as Croats, Slovenians, Bosnian muslims, Albanians deserted...

after several incidents, army was in the conflict with Croatian forces... of course, this was not without influence of Serbian politicians who naturally tried to influence the army's leadership to protect Serbs in Croatia...

in fact, Yugoslavia constitution had fuzzy defined secession. and was interpreted by Slovenian and Croatian political leaders and media as right of republics to separate, and by Serb politicians as right of nations to separate...

thus, Serb leaders took the attitude that if Croats want to separate they can do that but same right have Serbs living in Croatia... especially because borders of Croatia were drawn by comunist regime, because there was genocide in second world war, and because Serbia as one of the winners of the first world war had right to take those parts and more in 1918, but instead decided to welcome Croats and Slovenes in the Yugoslavia as brother nations.

To remind you, Serbia has lost in first world war around 1/3 of its citizens... too many lives sacrificed to give the gained teritories as a present to a nation who does not know to respect that and that brutally kills your people whenever history gives them a chance...

so, while west saw Milosevic as a butcher, he, as bad as he was, was in fact almost a hippie compared to other politicians who were in power in ex-Yugoslav republics... but he had a big disadvantage - he was on the way of US strategic plans for global domination... also, Germany government of that time was strongly pushing Croatia's independence...

Reinaert
21-12-10, 21:12
I think the USA wanted to flatten Yougoslavia. Just to get a trading route from Europe to the Middle East. Remember that Dubya Bush wanted to get Turkey in the EU!
The idiot was thinking Europe was another American State on the flag.
Well, we're not.

Turkey has to sort out existing problems with Armenia and Kurdistan before they ever can be member of the EU. Period.

Remember that Greece and Turkey are both NATO members that until today have the highest rate of people serving in the military. And that because of threats between them.
I can't accept that.

Bogdan
24-12-10, 03:38
never heard of this...
and do not believe it can be truth...
Slovenians collecting customs on all borders would just be insane...

Slovenians had reasons to separate...they were economically ahead of the rest and felt others as weight placed upon them...

point is in the way they separated...
they made media war in which they were good guys who are attacked, while in reality they encircled military barracks, cutting their food and water supply and shooting on Yugoslav army units made at the time mostly out of 18 year old kids who were serving army in Slovenia...
very brave...

they "won" the war... in reality, if Yugoslav army had a grain of wickedness that was attributed to it in west media, they would respond to this by flattening some town with ground and threat to flatten all of Slovenia (which could be done in few hours) if Slovenia's politicians do not order stop of the attacks... in fact, this is probably what any army would do... but Yugoslav army was based on ideological concept of brotherhood of Yugoslav nations...

so, they just tried to resist attack in surrounded barracks...after 10 days of being surrounded in military barracks, and of being targets for snipers of Slovenian newly formed army, Yugoslav army just retreated to the rest of Yugoslavia... in fact, any army in the world would react on such attack with full force... "wicked" JNA did not react at all... they allowed Slovenian hunters (blinded with hate and fear spread by media in years before) to shoot down 44 kids serving in the army, to wound another 146 and to molest around 5000 who surrendered....

with Croatia was different, because there lived big Serbian minority that was majority in up to 1/3 of Croatian territory.... clashes started after Serbs were kicked from status of nation in Croatia and put into status of being minority... in their view (which may or may not be correct), Croatia with its new neo-nazi leadership was on the road to finish what it has started in second world war when it was nazi ally who treated local Serbs with moto: "kill 1/3, deport 1/3, and convert to catholics the remaining 1/3" and who did that fairly according to the plan at least with the killing part... in first months of that war, Yugoslav army was even playing role of buffer between two sides... which was weird role as it by than consisted mainly of Serbs, as Croats, Slovenians, Bosnian muslims, Albanians deserted...

after several incidents, army was in the conflict with Croatian forces... of course, this was not without influence of Serbian politicians who naturally tried to influence the army's leadership to protect Serbs in Croatia...

in fact, Yugoslavia constitution had fuzzy defined secession. and was interpreted by Slovenian and Croatian political leaders and media as right of republics to separate, and by Serb politicians as right of nations to separate...

thus, Serb leaders took the attitude that if Croats want to separate they can do that but same right have Serbs living in Croatia... especially because borders of Croatia were drawn by comunist regime, because there was genocide in second world war, and because Serbia as one of the winners of the first world war had right to take those parts and more in 1918, but instead decided to welcome Croats and Slovenes in the Yugoslavia as brother nations.

To remind you, Serbia has lost in first world war around 1/3 of its citizens... too many lives sacrificed to give the gained teritories as a present to a nation who does not know to respect that and that brutally kills your people whenever history gives them a chance...

so, while west saw Milosevic as a butcher, he, as bad as he was, was in fact almost a hippie compared to other politicians who were in power in ex-Yugoslav republics... but he had a big disadvantage - he was on the way of US strategic plans for global domination... also, Germany government of that time was strongly pushing Croatia's independence...

believe what you want it is true. they where tito's pets. not suprising considering he was half slovenian himself they had very priveleged status and they collected customs from every single yugoslav border

but rest what you have said is true

how yes no 2
25-03-11, 03:23
Short BBC report for proponents of Kosovo independance.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/9294175.stm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_scokGJga8c

Aconform
26-03-11, 14:11
@how yes no and others

Two sides to a story... had a link but cant do link yet....


Thing is in war there are allot of victims… You try to play the role as only victims.
Was there deaths of innocent Serbs in the Balkan wars? Yes!!!
Is it only the fault of others? No – You guys need to stop the blame game. Your politicians and the decisions they made have Lost Kosovo for the Serbs.

The normal masses of the people in the Balkan need to demand from their politicians to stop this neo national fanaticism. On how great and noble they are and how evil every one else is.

Balkan self propaganda is based on – The Good, The bad and the Eviel.

In general all Balkan nations or should I say people need to think of the future. Right now to the rest of Europe you all remain primitive in the manor you all conduct your selves.

What if other countries in Europe did this? Germany and France – England Germany – Do you think that the people of these nations obsess over every, of the countless wars they have fought. Do their politicians bang on the National drum all the time? For if the rest of Europe conducted them selves in the same manor. Romanticizing every war – every death and territory lost. Well then Europe would be like the Balkan.


You are all too easy to manipulate from the ones that hold power. All of you need to take a good long look in the mirror.

No amount of Web warrior propaganda is going to change the View Europe has of people the Balkan. In Fact it confirms the stereotype.

And this is comes from a half Slav and Half Albanian…

how yes no 2
26-03-11, 15:24
@how yes no and others

...


Thing is in war there are allot of victims… You try to play the role as only victims.
Was there deaths of innocent Serbs in the Balkan wars? Yes!!!
Is it only the fault of others? No – You guys need to stop the blame game. Your politicians and the decisions they made have Lost Kosovo for the Serbs.
...

In every bigger conflict or war, both sides are deeply believing they are right, and have solid arguments for their viewpoints... especially when there is long history of conflicts, emphasizing snapshots of situation from different timepoints give strong arguments to both sides.... well, there is nothing strange in that...same we see in any conflict between two or more persons... both sides are deeply convinced they are in right...

I do not try to reverse black and white picture of Balkan wars into white and black picture... what I set as question is whether it was really black and white as it was presented? obviously not... but it was presented in black and white way... and such media representation lead to situation that one side was punished, other rewarded...

Canek
26-03-11, 16:39
i think montenegro will be followed by other european regions... belgium may split very soon. scotland, catalonia and basque country then...

how yes no 2
26-03-11, 23:56
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEhgwdJldeU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zp6C18Jb-Dg&feature=related

Aconform
29-03-11, 13:59
It is off topic but sins you seem to focus on that we can talk about Kosovo.

Even if we assume that every bad action on the Serbian side is western propaganda. The Serbians decision to move the army in to Kosovo was at best foolish.

It comes down to public image of the leaders and people. Again even if we take Serbian take on events that Serbian bad global image was purely due to propaganda and had no merit. They are still factors that should have been considered by the political leadership.

Main leaders facing each other were on Serb side Slobodan Milosevic and on Kosovo Albanian side Ibrahim Rugova.

Milosevic international image was extremely bad he was seen as a fanatical nationalist, unreasonable and as a person who played a part or was at fault for the unfortunate events in Bosnia. In short he was seen as an ultra Nationalistic genocidal mad man even if that was propaganda.

Rugovas image was rather good. He was seen as a moderate and reasonable person. He followed a policy of non violence and passive resistance. His reputation among Albanian also gave him power to hold back the elements that wanted violent confrontation.

International mediated negotiation The Albanians called for a reversion to the Yugoslav constitutional right they had before they were removed by Milosevic.

Now taking this in to consideration the worst action Serbia could take was to move the Army in to Kosovo in an attempt to keep Kosovo.

You also must consider the shame the international community felt in relation to what happened in Bosnia. When the Army moved in to Kosovo there was a public demand that there should be done something. The Albanian was considered an unarmed civilian group. There wasn’t even an Albanian Police force.

In short the loss of Kosovo and bombings of Belgrade was down to good leadership and bad. Even if you subscribe to the most insane conspiracy theories it was still an illogical and bad tactical move on the Serbian side. Unless of course if there is a theory that the Serb army did not move in to Kosovo. Then yes the Serbian leadership is absolved of any wrong doing.

In my opinion the worst thing that has happened to the Serb people is that they were unlucky to have Milosevic as their leader. I belive that many Serbs would aggre in that assesment.

Rastko Pocesta
28-04-11, 15:27
Let's see now if they will merge Kosovo with Albania. That seems like the most logical thing to do, but I am not an expert on the matter.

I am in favour of the independence of Kosovo, but only if it is in accordance with the principles expressed in the Declaration of Independence i.e. implementation of the Ahtisaari plan. It would hopefully bring democracy, equality and rule of law to the society in Kosovo. Merger with Albania is completely unacceptable, realisation of the irredentist idea of "Ethnic Albania."

iapetoc
28-04-11, 16:52
I am in favour of the independence of Kosovo, but only if it is in accordance with the principles expressed in the Declaration of Independence i.e. implementation of the Ahtisaari plan. It would hopefully bring democracy, equality and rule of law to the society in Kosovo. Merger with Albania is completely unacceptable, realisation of the irredentist idea of "Ethnic Albania."

Why not? you are supporting Makedonian Issue and want Greeks and Bulgarians and Albanians under an Ex-Communist mafia organised by Tito, but you do not want Kossovo unite with Albania?
Why not?

as you say the only Legal is the Kossovo constitution,

Let the majority of Kossovo people deside,

LeBrok
28-04-11, 19:09
Exactly right iapetoc. Rastko is for the liberties, choices and democracy for all people on this planet,.....but it has to stop if he doesn't like the outcome. Please Rastko, think before you post, because you contradict yourself in your posts, or your position is so off the wall, that I don't know where to start. Try to be more like Homo Cogitans.

Rastko Pocesta
29-04-11, 00:42
Exactly right iapetoc. Rastko is for the liberties, choices and democracy for all people on this planet,.....but it has to stop if he doesn't like the outcome. Please Rastko, think before you post, because you contradict yourself in your posts, or your position is so off the wall, that I don't know where to start. Try to be more like Homo Cogitans.

Your post shows that you have no idea about the issue of Kosovo. According to the United Nations Development Programme survey published in March 2007 only 2.5% Albanians in Kosovo thought that unification is the best solution. 96% said they want Kosovo to become independent within its present borders.

Unification with Albania is abolition of rights of the minorities - Serbs, Bosniaks, Roma, Gorani etc. Human rights are above all and Kosovo must stay independent and sovereign within its present borders. Everything else is irredentism and threat to stability, democracy and human rights in the region.

By the way, Josip Broz Tito was not great by any means, but he was most certainly the best leader who ever ruled in this region. It held a world record for most of heads of states, ministers and presidents of legislative bodies in history until April 8, 2005 when the Pope's funeral broke it. Still, it was more visited then the funerals of JFK or Churchill. That tells enough about how world leaders of all nations - from USA to Soviet Union, from United Kingdom to China, respected Tito.

how yes no 2
29-04-11, 01:17
Human rights are above all and Kosovo must stay independent and sovereign within its present borders. Everything else is irredentism and threat to stability, democracy and human rights in the region.
khm, Kosovo is not really independent...
If it was independent, than its majority citizens of today would be able to join their native country - Albania... However, in 90s term Kosovars was invented to hide the fact that Albanians already have national state (Albania) and that expanding that state on account of its neighbour state (Serbia) cannot be seen as politically, morally or legally correct. It is as correct as if New Mexico is by Russians given to Mexico, Florida to Cuba, or if Marseille is by new superpower China given to one of Arab countries, or if south Italy or north Greece is given to Albania, or if part of Germany is given to Turkey....
It is not comparable to prospect that e.g. Kurdistan could become independent country, because Kurds despite extremely large area in which they are majority for long time, do not have national state...

Rastko Pocesta
29-04-11, 02:08
khm, Kosovo is not really independent...
If it was independent, than its majority citizens of today would be able to join their native country - Albania... However, in 90s term Kosovars was invented to hide the fact that Albanians already have national state (Albania) and that expanding that state on account of its neighbour state (Serbia) cannot be seen as politically, morally or legally correct. It is as correct as if New Mexico is by Russians given to Mexico, Florida to Cuba, or if Marseille is by new superpower China given to one of Arab countries, or if south Italy or north Greece is given to Albania, or if part of Germany is given to Turkey....
It is not comparable to prospect that e.g. Kurdistan could become independent country, because Kurds despite extremely large area in which they are majority for long time, do not have national state...

National state is the 19th century concept which is DEAD. All modern countries are multicultural and multiethnic progressive democracies based on the principles of freedom and human rights. Kurdistan shall be independent, as well.

The genocidal operation "Potkovica", the massacres in Suva Reka, Račak, Podujevo, Velika Kruša, Izbica, Drenica, Gornje Obrinje, Ćuška, Bela Crkva, Orahovac and in Dubrava prison, violated the rights of the majority population on self-determination and consequently they led to North Atlantic Treaty Organization's humanitarian intervention and finally the independence of Kosovo.

LeBrok
29-04-11, 05:01
You are missing the point. In your democratic and liberal priorities let citizens of Kosovo choose what they want. Don't tell them what they can or can't, especially basing your judgment on your political agenda or feelings. Shouldn't you let people to decide what to do? Make your mind dude.

iapetoc
29-04-11, 05:59
Your post shows that you have no idea about the issue of Kosovo. According to the United Nations Development Programme survey published in March 2007 only 2.5% Albanians in Kosovo thought that unification is the best solution. 96% said they want Kosovo to become independent within its present borders.

Unification with Albania is abolition of rights of the minorities - Serbs, Bosniaks, Roma, Gorani etc. Human rights are above all and Kosovo must stay independent and sovereign within its present borders. Everything else is irredentism and threat to stability, democracy and human rights in the region.

By the way, Josip Broz Tito was not great by any means, but he was most certainly the best leader who ever ruled in this region. It held a world record for most of heads of states, ministers and presidents of legislative bodies in history until April 8, 2005 when the Pope's funeral broke it. Still, it was more visited then the funerals of JFK or Churchill. That tells enough about how world leaders of all nations - from USA to Soviet Union, from United Kingdom to China, respected Tito.


so you are not supporting unificatio in order of minorities,
But you support a country like Fyrom which already has much more minorities, to make more, to be a country of 4 primary nations, languages and religions,
Really your point of view is not the best,
Fyrom is a mood for fight, and boarder change,
the UN solutions for kossovo are just to achieve peace, and are not the best for any part,
in time Kossovo people will decide,
the no change boarder in bosnia and kossovo for me it is mistaken,
but you agree to change boarders Greece and Bulgaria, just to create a country of 4 primary nations, 4 primary languages who knows how many other minorities or cultures like tsiggani roma gorani pomaks etc,
what stability in the region offers Fyrom?

Tito was smart, he took advantage of Cold war and went to 3rd world, that ment profits for him and his party, in ex Yugoslavia secret meeting of both happened,
we all know that the best CIA and KGB agents were in Beligradi,
But Tito solutions F..k up the whole Balkans,
1 Bosnia
2 Croatia (kraina I think)
3 kossovo
4 fyrom

the Yugoslavia was an artificial country, to serve both Ussr and Usa,
Tito named Macedonia an Area that was never Makedonia, and Forgot Dusan's capital Skopje that was Serbia, why?
Besides in many articles I read that he de-industrialize Serbia which was the bigger industry before WW2 in Balkans

while you lived in a block Tito had lion's in his garden in a island in Dalmatia.

the хвала Tito days are over, face truth
People can think and judge, and search and speak
we don't need communist party propaganda to tell us, whom and who to applause, and when

how many wars in Balkans, and still there is open the case for 1 more the Fyrom-Greece

Tito was a Criminal against Humanity,
he accepted Tens of Thousands of Greek children from north Greece and never return them back
Are you supporting that
are you supporting to take kids from their mothers change their names and never turn them back?
in order to create an artificial nation? or to expand communism.

face truth, the man was the most discusting Leader the late years, worse than Ottomans that had Yenicars


the case of kossovo Bosnia Fyrom is one,
Nations are bounded by blood, culture, language, common memories and not by Geographical terms or a peace treaty.the no change boarders is a temporary solution, and not a terminal,
the multicultural of now days, we are not certain if will be in future,the multicultural of EU can brake Eu back to the begging,
the case of Belgium, Spain (Basques Catalania etc) the late in Scotland (parliament etc) proves us that multicultural Europe is not a reality, and can go back to unification movements of 1700-1800
EU is still a money Union,

Rastko Pocesta
29-04-11, 18:03
You are missing the point. In your democratic and liberal priorities let citizens of Kosovo choose what they want. Don't tell them what they can or can't, especially basing your judgment on your political agenda or feelings. Shouldn't you let people to decide what to do? Make your mind dude.

This is exactly why I was against minaret referendum in Switzerland - you cannot put human rights on the referendum. If Kosovo unites with Albania human rights of minorities are abolished. Therefore, there are certain issues about which majority cannot decide. Those issues are sensistive and related to basic individual freedoms.

how yes no 2
29-04-11, 21:44
National state is the 19th century concept which is DEAD. All modern countries are multicultural and multiethnic progressive democracies based on the principles of freedom and human rights. Kurdistan shall be independent, as well.

perhaps your liberal ideology makes your views fuzzy and unrealistic, but world is and always was governed by force of stronger...

I do not think Kurdistan will be independent any time soon...
Turkey is important part of NATO and in case of NATO-Russia war will have to do largest sacrifice... therefore, it is given right to keep its part of Kurdistan as long as it wants it...



The genocidal operation "Potkovica", the massacres in Suva Reka, Račak, Podujevo, Velika Kruša, Izbica, Drenica, Gornje Obrinje, Ćuška, Bela Crkva, Orahovac and in Dubrava prison, violated the rights of the majority population on self-determination and consequently they led to North Atlantic Treaty Organization's humanitarian intervention and finally the independence of Kosovo.

well, I know that ideologists of neoliberal attitudes from Serbia, are very ready to repeat names of those supposed events to spit on own nation...but although, as in most wars, some grouse war crimes did happen, most of the mentioned events are simply invented as documented in this documentary of German TV...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_scokGJga8c

essentially, wars from 90s were just indirect NATO-Russia war...Milosevic was pro-Russian element and the leaders of the nations who were in war with him were pro-NATO elements...

Elias2
29-04-11, 22:20
Turkey is important part of NATO and in case of NATO-Russia war will have to do largest sacrifice... therefore, it is given right to keep its part of Kurdistan as long as it wants it...


Why do people think Russia is still the USSR?

how yes no 2
29-04-11, 23:50
Why do people think Russia is still the USSR?

it is not, but strategic games are not changed over night...

USA won cold war by pulling down iron curtain...
as a result of this it has spread its influence via NATO far into east Europe...
that makes Russia nervous as it needs to be sure to preserve vast natural resources in Siberia for its future generations...

also, by Russia being more and more economical partner of EU, USA strategy makers can see it as treat that may help west Europe to break free from its dependency from USA in military sense....

so, Russia stays natural enemy of USA... and other way around..it is natural rivalry of the two big powers and large countries... that is quite normal...hopefully, this rivalry will be more and more replaced by partnership for better world...but it is quite possible that in parallel with that ongoing process the two will occasionally keep playing their strategic games through wars between smaller nations...

most important for future of the world is to avoid global direct confrontation between USA and Russia, as that would likely be the end of the world as we know it... at least in northern hemisphere...

Antigone
30-04-11, 07:10
I think the US is living in the past and therefore making another big mistake. Russia is no longer the enemy they seem to think it is, it will be China.

iapetoc
30-04-11, 13:36
This is exactly why I was against minaret referendum in Switzerland - you cannot put human rights on the referendum. If Kosovo unites with Albania human rights of minorities are abolished. Therefore, there are certain issues about which majority cannot decide. Those issues are sensistive and related to basic individual freedoms.


what about the basic majority to speak your mother's language, and return Home?

did Tito and Fyrom gave that right to the kidnaped children?

what about the right to claim your ID and not accept a fake ID that is given to you by a paper, since you are supporting Fyromians and their constitution about liberation of Other nation by their own people,

seems like you don't care about Human rights but only to make troubles,

it is a Human right to be son of someone, and not accept any name or ID is given to you by a treaty or a paper,

why you don't respect the Human rights of Makedonians?

possibly you are another politician like many in Balkans (including Greeks) that takes orders from somewhere else.

Rastko Pocesta
30-04-11, 20:10
what about the basic majority to speak your mother's language, and return Home?

did Tito and Fyrom gave that right to the kidnaped children?

what about the right to claim your ID and not accept a fake ID that is given to you by a paper, since you are supporting Fyromians and their constitution about liberation of Other nation by their own people,

seems like you don't care about Human rights but only to make troubles,

it is a Human right to be son of someone, and not accept any name or ID is given to you by a treaty or a paper,

why you don't respect the Human rights of Makedonians?

possibly you are another politician like many in Balkans (including Greeks) that takes orders from somewhere else.

You have not a single objective proof that such a thing ever happened. If those children want to go back to Greece, who can prohibit them from doing that? Everyone has the right of free movement, today, if they have a proof they are Greek they can acquire citizenship.

Elias2
01-05-11, 01:25
You have not a single objective proof that such a thing ever happened.

Are you saying there isn't proof children were taken across the iron curtain by communists to be brainwashed into thinking they are someone else?

Elias2
01-05-11, 02:03
it is not, but strategic games are not changed over night...

USA won cold war by pulling down iron curtain...
as a result of this it has spread its influence via NATO far into east Europe...
that makes Russia nervous as it needs to be sure to preserve vast natural resources in Siberia for its future generations...

also, by Russia being more and more economical partner of EU, USA strategy makers can see it as treat that may help west Europe to break free from its dependency from USA in military sense....

so, Russia stays natural enemy of USA... and other way around..it is natural rivalry of the two big powers and large countries... that is quite normal...hopefully, this rivalry will be more and more replaced by partnership for better world...but it is quite possible that in parallel with that ongoing process the two will occasionally keep playing their strategic games through wars between smaller nations...

most important for future of the world is to avoid global direct confrontation between USA and Russia, as that would likely be the end of the world as we know it... at least in northern hemisphere...

I understand your logic but why would Russia go to war with NATO?, at least the european NATO members? if EU wants russia's partnership so it can be less dependent on USA, russia would be happy with this new relationship because it favors russia over America. I think NATO is a debunked organization nowadays anyways, they can't even agree when it came to Lybia what to do, and to much politics came in the way. I don't think EU should be worried about a eurasion invasion, only USA is worried beacuse they want the oil from central asia but the countries seem to favor Russia over them, so they pretend like Russia is still an enemy, and try to make it look like this is the case but it isn't. Like Antigone said they should be looking at China.

iapetoc
01-05-11, 03:05
You have not a single objective proof that such a thing ever happened. If those children want to go back to Greece, who can prohibit them from doing that? Everyone has the right of free movement, today, if they have a proof they are Greek they can acquire citizenship.


are you sure?

iapetoc
01-05-11, 04:35
You have not a single objective proof that such a thing ever happened. If those children want to go back to Greece, who can prohibit them from doing that? Everyone has the right of free movement, today, if they have a proof they are Greek they can acquire citizenship.


are you sure?

read my post #141 at

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?24964-The-case-of-Macedonia/page6

there you find not only proves but documents from ex Yugoslavian tv or cinema of the time,in serbian language,

Communist even change their names,

from a friends of my fathers, he found his brother and his 2 sisters while they all still miss 1 sister somewhere in ex communist countries,
2 of them lived in Skopje and 1 romania, one is still missing from red cross, the younger, kidnaped at age of 3,


I even have UN desisions and numbers you .... tito worshiper,

Fyromians and Tito destabilize the Balkans and create crimes against Humanity,

3 march 1948 Beograd communist party of youth,
Document in written results of congress
decision on how they handle the Greek kids

2nd congress in Sofia

3 March 1948 newspaper of Democratic (communist) Army mention that the operation is about 150 000 kids from Greek Makedonia and Thrace to transport to Yugoslavia

thank god not that many kidnaped

April 1948 first actions or return by UNSCOB A/AC 16/251
no answer by Tito


commander θανασης Μητσοπουλος thanashs mitsopoulos, Communist army,
in charge,
sent 12 000 kids in yugoslavia
bulgaria 2000
east Germany 1000
Hungary 1000
poland 3500
romania 5664
Ussr 1000
Chech-slovakia 3500

all where examned by Petros kokkalis doctor,

documents are many
only about 600 manage to return, the bigger ones age >15
the rest learn the truth after 1975, 27 years living with a fake ID

http://assets.in.gr/assetservice/Image.ashx?c=12706733&r=0&p=0&t=0&q=100&v=1&s=1&w=1000


the Greek boys at 1 December 1948
at charita katholica Βαρι Chechoslovakia
secret photo given by red cross to Greek embasy,

the report of
Ligue des Societes de la Croix Rouge 1948

27 November 1948 UN decision, of return,
only romania and chechoslovakia accept red cross mans
TITO AS ..... HE WAS HE DID NOT PERMIT RED CROSS TO SEARCH OR TO CONTACT WITH KIDS,

http://assets.in.gr/assetservice/Image.ashx?c=12706736&r=0&p=0&t=0&q=100&v=1&s=1&w=1000

1948 a photo of Greek kids in communist countries, given by fraince Red cross to mothers in Greece

12 august 1949
VERN Helvetia red cross gathers the demands of parents,
Even 15 muslim kid where kidnaped,

Pope of rome letter to USA foreign minister,

29 december since Tito say no
NATIONAL DAY OF DEATH,
29 december 12 000 mothers received a NO from tito and is consider the burial of the missing children,
All >26 000 children passed though Yugoslavia, accordirg communist doctor Kokkalis
the video in the post i mention

writers about that

Lars Baerentzen
Ole L Smith
Annete Bak Malle
Ida Enemark

Milan Ristovic A long Journey home,
Greek refugee children in Yugoslavia 1948-1960


all UN desissions sources, documents sources, and congress results are here,

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:MwXJksHkk1kJ:library.panteion.gr:8080/dspace/bitstream/123456789/977/1/papageorgiou.pdf+library.panteion.gr:8080/dspace/bitstream/.../papageorgiou.&hl=el&gl=gr&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjKosX2x_J8TcdosUI1bYmOmPMp_cY-dSeaDA_ekugFFUdtg5G0ujauguxlY-nTFpZk0tvyh7i87Li3lrFy7Hf_RPXyklDcFk8UNMyDdIw9zaYJ ZvAd13Z38VLZt2W2xZnPSHdD&sig=AHIEtbRLW2PY_zyF6aFHitVOW6CyL4jBjA


Weber Laurence (Geneve 2007)
all the documents of CICR

as you I have evidence,
Tito and Yugoslavia until 1960 did permit Red Cross even to find under conditions they lived,
the first attempt was made 12 years later of kidnaping 1960
the family names to most BUT NOT ALL were given at 1975, so people could search for relatives,

only Tito and Stalin did not permit Red cross to find Children

3 years old Children Hidden in Skopje learn who were they at age of 30

UN nation decisions, and Pope's personal interest is not for Bullshit,

Due to respect to forum I will not characterize you.

the proves are in papers, UN decisions, and even in Videos in the post I mention,

#141 at

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?24964-The-case-of-Macedonia/page6

one video is document from either cinema news or tv but is a document in a very well know language,
guess,


thank you today some of them live in greece,
If they spend all their life in Skopje and Yugoslavia, will they return at the age of 40-50
after spending 30-40 years in Yugoslavia, to a mother who probably is dead or they never knew,

remember only Tito and Stalin send away red cross

I even can give you names,


Josip Broz Tito
Јосип Броз Тито
THE HEROD OF THE BALKANS
one of the titles he deserves


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j30oc2DCdd8&feature=player_embedded#at=560


tell me what language and what mark is that in videos, min 1:30 (speaker not kids)


How to return to Greece, when Tito made them slavic-fake Makedonians?
and lived 40 years with the Idea that they are the real Makedonians, and Alexander was Slavic
the creation of slavic Makedonian state, made by Tito and Communists, victims Greek children,
ottomans style,

These Kids spoke and Sing Greek in 1rst Video, why they Speak Slavic as Adults???

proves of what a ... was Tito and Fyromians are

only Turks did that to Greeks,
Not even German Nazi,
Tito and Stalin

Objectives proves are given, more than 1

Hitler and Marco Vafeiades side by side??????? !!!!!!!

What About the fortune and properties of Greeks of Strumnitsa Perlepe Monasterion,
what happened to them,
where are the 40 000 greeks of monasterion?

Tito who expected Albania to be 9 democracy of yugoslavia, and Greece 10.
simply make proud Serbians of WW1 to be the bad quys of the balkans.
made proud partisans, fighters against NAZI, to reconsider if they act correct.
After 12 years left Red cross to visit children

Reinaert
01-05-11, 13:12
iapetoc, you seem to be a crusader for your own cause. Blaming Tito, while the western nations on the right wing did exactly the same.

Please read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Civil_War

What the hell were the English doing in Greece anyway?
They got the right wing in power, with all the problems later on.
Be aware who to blame for the misfortune of Greece.
Blame the English!

And of course, anyone who wants to go back to Greece can do so, if they want.

Rastko Pocesta
01-05-11, 18:41
Exactly. There was a civil war and many people fled to SFRY. Children were most likely rescued from the bloodbath happening there.

Elias2
01-05-11, 18:52
Exactly. There was a civil war and many people fled to SFRY. Children were most likely rescued from the bloodbath happening there.

Most likely? we know why they were taken, you just can't seem to want to comprehend this.

Reinaert
01-05-11, 23:15
Most likely? we know why they were taken, you just can't seem to want to comprehend this.

Just say what you want to say, do not hide in the bushes!

You are talking in riddles!

You seem to be a right winger too!
They don't ever believe history!
They will always tell the story that the sun is black.
Although everybody sees the sun is white.

Grrrr

Dammit! Who from Greece still living in former Yugoslavia can't go to Greece and claim citizenship!???

I guess there are more Greeks living in the USA that were kidnapped by the fascists!
Or in England of course.

Trained as agents for the Empire.

Reinaert
01-05-11, 23:25
BTW.. We were talking about Montenegro, and some Greeks stole the thread.

Elias2
02-05-11, 13:36
Just say what you want to say, do not hide in the bushes!

You are talking in riddles!

You seem to be a right winger too!
They don't ever believe history!
They will always tell the story that the sun is black.
Although everybody sees the sun is white.



I'm a centre-right person myself, but today I'm voting left because harper in Canada is not a good leader. It seems most conservative parties are really bad, why can't there be a progressive conservative party.:angry: I study history, so I believe it when I read it from a credible source, not internet propaganda from Dejavu.

The reason is in what Iapetoc outlined in this thread and what I've said in many other threads about greece and its communist neighbours goals during the cold war, and FYROM's dream right now.

iapetoc
11-05-11, 01:43
Just say what you want to say, do not hide in the bushes!

You are talking in riddles!

You seem to be a right winger too!
They don't ever believe history!
They will always tell the story that the sun is black.
Although everybody sees the sun is white.

Grrrr

Dammit! Who from Greece still living in former Yugoslavia can't go to Greece and claim citizenship!???

I guess there are more Greeks living in the USA that were kidnapped by the fascists!
Or in England of course.

Trained as agents for the Empire.


no not in England, in england Greek did not gave a child, cause British empire supported KKE, and not Zerbas or Psarros,
KKE took Gold from British forces boots guns and ammunittion,
later at 1945 england change policy, and send Scobie.

The problem is another read carefully the post you ask me to read.

(Stalin used the word svernut, Russian for "fold up", to express what the Greek communists should do.)

again i repeat that children were @forcefully taken by the DSE from territories they controlled to Eastern Bloc countries" @
and while Bulgaria, Czech, Poland etc allow red cross to establish communication with mothers

TITO ALLOW COMMUNICATION AT 1968 20 years after

while all East block countries allow in 3 years
TITO HIDE CHILDREN FROM MOTHERS FOR 20 YEARS

how many mothers died with out see their children?????

and svernut still continuous while when Communists of moscow lost their hope for Greece, gave order to construct the Mac-Donaldian (fyrom) issue, tey found bullshit propaganda and create a nation from 1945 and after that as they say exist from ancient times,

that is the one you don't see Reinaert.

ok the thread was about monte negro, and I will stop.

But hearing that Kossovo should not join Albania, while Fyrom must occupy land from Greece and bulgaria reminds me other stories.

Besides I belong to center -left sides, but when comes to stupid expansionism, or to un-vital solutions I am always against,
I don't share the idea of multicultural cause it is provided by Bankers and industry sharks,


besides Reinaert look at that answer


Exactly. There was a civil war and many people fled to SFRY. Children were most likely rescued from the bloodbath happening there.

Tito rescue children by prohibiting them to see their mothers 20 years, and 18 after civil war
end

fine answer !!!! to the heart of problem.

he uses the virb fled, NOT FORCED, NOT KIDNAP,

3 years old children fled .......


BESIDES REINAERT WHO OF THESE CHILDREN HAVE PAPPERS,

I know cases that even today are unsolved, they don't have pappers to fid twho they were, and try by asking old people,

and the subject for Usa yes you are right, by those were not kidnaped, you are talking about the orphans of WW2 and civil war, yes indeed about 30% was given to USA and Australia to be adopted,
from them 50% was given to Greek immigrants in Usa and Australia,
Yes I know that case also, the orphans of the queen that 30% grew as orphans and became soldiers and officers, 30% became priests and monks, and 30% were given for adoption away from Europe.
besides Greeks gave more children to adopt in poverty of 1953-1959 than in 1949,

Reinaert the problem is elsewhere

We take care the minorities in case of Kossovo, BUT NOT in case of FYROM,
we don't want Kossovo to unite with Albania, But we support Fyrom to occupy lands and make minority 2 000 000 free Greeks,
we care about Human rights, But we forgot the Human rights of children that some of them show only mothers grave,

seems like politic in Balkans is going back to 1900 and 1945.
and while Greeks politician steal money from citizens, some others support ethnic wars