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No-name
09-06-06, 23:15
How do ex-smokers, politicos and vegetarians impose their beliefs and cause harm?

No-name
09-06-06, 23:47
Sometimes beyond the normal realm of discussion is the agressive person who believes something passionately and wants you to know it, accept it and believe it. It can get pretty ugly. For example, I don't smoke, but I have seen how adamant and vicious ex-smokers can get with smokers... they can get very worked up if you light up near them.

Also certain people with politics can be quite forceful with your time and their opinions. Their rights become important. Thier opinions smarter and more logical and more mature than yours. If you disagree, you are either an idiot or a nazi.

Who do you find most offensive, intrusive or assaultive? Do you have experiences with people trying to force their beliefs on you?

PRIZMATIC
10-06-06, 00:35
:blush:
My "statements" enough frequently "collide" with the majority themes - though it not religion... And the more so it " not imposing to someone of the opinion "... It simply my opinion...
I at school was bothered with " lessons of discussion " - far from a reality... Here I also "create" these "measurements"... It just original " the protest contra unilateral " followings to a theme...
In fact it only game of senses...
P.S. I never show my knowledge...

Tokis-Phoenix
11-06-06, 22:01
Sometimes beyond the normal realm of discussion is the agressive person who believes something passionately and wants you to know it, accept it and believe it. It can get pretty ugly. For example, I don't smoke, but I have seen how adamant and vicious ex-smokers can get with smokers... they can get very worked up if you light up near them.

Also certain people with politics can be quite forceful with your time and their opinions. Their rights become important. Thier opinions smarter and more logical and more mature than yours. If you disagree, you are either an idiot or a nazi.

Who do you find most offensive, intrusive or assaultive? Do you have experiences with people trying to force their beliefs on you?

Yep, i've had people try to impose their beliefs on me loadsa times, increasingly on forum discussions.
I've had everything from being accused i am "weak" because i am a religious person (buddhist), or that i a "lower" or essentially more primitive because i am not a vegan, but still consume animal products . I have also been accused of being disgusting because i smoke. In my day to day life, i encounter none of this. I think it basically comes to down to;
a. People think their beliefs are the best and are the most correct, there's often a fine line in people seeing you as defending your beliefs or attacking theirs.
b. Political correctness. When somthing is socially acceptable, people feel more free to do it or act on it- so while is perfectly socially acceptable to drink alchohol if you are of the legal age, its not socially acceptable to smoke pot (cannabis)- there's not always a lot of sense in all of this whats right and wrong, but rather purely what is most socially acceptable or accepted by the masses, is what decides wether its right or wrong.
And where there's no real obvious correctness or social acceptablebility in somthing, opinions really clash- and you get a hot topic/debate.

So for example while in the past, it was actually expected of parents to raise their children in a christian environment/upbringing with christian teachings/morals, now there is discusion over how correct it is to "force" a particular religion upon a child. At the same time, many people who disagree with this are guilty of forcing their own beliefs upon others. Hypocrisey...

No-name
11-06-06, 22:35
I think a lot of time that people will impose their own garbage on you because it is the one thing they struggle with most. By making it the worst possible thing in the world and blaming you for indulging in behavior they are prone to, perhaps they feel stronger and smarter.

Minty
12-06-06, 00:09
Sometimes beyond the normal realm of discussion is the agressive person who believes something passionately and wants you to know it, accept it and believe it. It can get pretty ugly. For example, I don't smoke, but I have seen how adamant and vicious ex-smokers can get with smokers... they can get very worked up if you light up near them.
Also certain people with politics can be quite forceful with your time and their opinions. Their rights become important. Thier opinions smarter and more logical and more mature than yours. If you disagree, you are either an idiot or a nazi.
Who do you find most offensive, intrusive or assaultive? Do you have experiences with people trying to force their beliefs on you?

I think this group oriented peer pressure issue seems to be more prevalent in Asian society than in white society where you can be more individual and do the things you like.

I have encountered people trying to give me cigarettes, trying to get me to smoke. I have had friends who tried to tell me how to think how to behave even whom to date. But considered the way I am it didn't work.

I have even been threatened that if I didn't confirm to everybody in the group I would have nobody.

I find that rather pathetic. I can find people from another group who like me for who I am and I did.

No-name
22-06-06, 18:31
What is this with Athiests believing that people that teach their own children their faith are "brainwashing" them or committing "psychological rape"? Both Maciamo and SVF have expressed this sentiment, which I find disturbing and alarming. Is there a reason why athiests want to dictate how I raise my children?

Revenant
22-06-06, 19:40
Militant Fundamental Secularism just another extreme...

Mycernius
22-06-06, 20:56
SVF isn't a true atheist. He believes in a concept of a god, just not a biblical god. I asked him about this a while ago.

No-name
22-06-06, 21:59
I think what upsets people is not when your beliefs are different, but when they judge your beliefs to be inferior and fell that they need to be changed. That intrusive type of prosletyzing, be it in the name of God or in the guise of science is what upsets and offends others.

There is an essay by Ellie Wiesel called "Tolerance" that expresses the need to avoid judging the belief systems of others... I will look for it.

No-name
23-06-06, 19:57
Did anyone catch this on the other thread? I found it quite revealing and somewhat offensive:
BBC News : Scientists urge evolution lessons (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5098608.stm)
My views on the subject are unequivocal; I think that anyone (not just school teachers, but also parents or religious workers) who teaches to children things contradicting hard scientific facts about evolution should be considered as a criminal and sent to jail. Teaching such lies is not just irresponsible, it confuses children, hamper them in their intellectual and philosophical development, and amounts to brainwashing and manipulation of mind and feelings. The more children these lies have be taught too and the harsher the sentence should be. I consider it like a form of "intellectual rape" (adults may have their protection against it, but not children or even teenagers).
From his statement it is clear that Maciamo:
1. Considers anyone who teaches to children anything contrary to science a criminal that should go to jail.
2. Considers anything contrary to science a "lie".
3. Every person who espouses a faith is therefore a liar and irresponsible.
4. Any religious person that has taught children is guilty of "intellectual rape."
5. Children brought up with religion are confused, hampered in their intellectual and philosophical development, brainwashed and manipulated in their minds and feelings.

This concerns me, because it reveals not only an irrational bias toward people of faith, but an agenda. For Maciamo to be an Administrator who moderates this forum, this lack of objectivity is problematic and would be the core reason why he should excuse himself from moderating issues involving religion. I believe his past actions have confirmed that this agenda and bias prevent him from making fair and objective decisions in this area.

It offends me because as a parent, and educator and a Christian I am not a criminal, nor should raising my kids in good conscience in the faith I have chosen be considered a crime. No rational, tollerant person would ever say so.
I am neither a liar nor am I irresponsible. I am in no way guilty of "intellectual rape." My two sons have a deep abiding faith and are not confused, hampered in their intellectual and philosophical development, brainwashed or manipulated in their minds and feelings.

Significantly more important than learning the laws of thermodynamics or the intricacies of spelling and capitalization it the importance of tolerance- recognizing and appreciating the diversity in humanity- ethnic, cultural and religious differences that add richness. To say that anothers core beliefs render them inferior or that their beliefs should be outlawed ought to raise concern. In the world of the twenty first century such ideas really have no rational or respected place in the free forum of ideas.

Sensuikan San
24-06-06, 08:02
What is this with Athiests believing that people that teach their own children their faith are "brainwashing" them or committing "psychological rape"? Both Maciamo and SVF have expressed this sentiment, which I find disturbing and alarming. Is there a reason why athiests want to dictate how I raise my children?

I don't think we do, do we ? (Can't speak for Maciamo or SVF, of course.)

Nothing wrong with teaching your children your faith. That's a good thing.

However, should you not also stress that they're under no obligation to follow it ...?

W

No-name
24-06-06, 19:18
Perhaps if Maciamo could offer some proof to back up his statement:
Maciamo:
1. If the children raised in religious homes are brainwashed- could you give some of the techniques used and show how these techniques are transmitted through the religious communities? Can you show proof that such abuse is wide spread and condoned by religious writings and institutions?

2. If these children have been Raped intellectually by their parents, teachers and clergy- there should be a widespread effect that is measurable. Do you have data?

3. If these children are hampered intellectually, again statistics about intelligence, literacy, and educational level should bear this out. Do you have data?

4. If they are hampered emotionally and psychologically, again data should bear this out.

5. If you can't measure it or prove it scientifically, you must disgard it as untrue. Are you willing to admit that this is merely a prejudice born out of your personal experience that has no data to back it up?

CarrionMan
24-06-06, 19:31
I am the child of Sabro, and as much as I am Christian, I am also unorthodox. I believe that even though we should eat the 'flesh' and drink the 'blood', we shouldn't follow the exact bible teachings in a literal sense, but more of a deeper meaning. For instance, one teaching Jesus made was that there are no restrictions on food, and I certainly follow that rule. But, however, some teachings such as Revelations must be thought about deeper in meaning. In other words, orthodox Christians are more tense than unorthodox Christians, and both of their children have a choice to walk away from God, or follow him to death.

Mycernius
24-06-06, 19:37
4. If they are hampered emotionally and psychologically, again data should bear this out.

All parents will influence their kids while they are growing up. No matter how good a parent you are children will grown up will psychological or emotional hang ups they have picked up from parents. There is nothing you can do about it as parents are the primary role models for their children. I have mannerisms that I share with my father and mother, more from my father, but others I have gained as I have gotten older.

BTW, hello to Sabros son:wave:

CarrionMan
24-06-06, 19:45
Or am I?

The 'brainwash' stuff is BS. Only scientologists do that, I think…

Mycernius
24-06-06, 19:48
Or am I?

The 'brainwash' stuff is BS. Only scientologists do that, I thinkc
All religions brainwash. Why do you think Muslims strap bombs on themselves? It is usually the extremists that like to brainwash, after all you can't have people question them.

CarrionMan
24-06-06, 19:51
Christians have no record of brainwashing in the 20th century, or the 21st century. I love reading science, better to prove God's existence to Atheists than have an empty heaven…

Mycernius
24-06-06, 19:57
Jim Jones, Heavens Gate, JWs, Branch dravidians, Movement for the restoration of the ten commandments of God. All call or called themselves Christian.

CarrionMan
24-06-06, 19:58
Dear God, THE SCARY-NESS!

No-name
24-06-06, 19:58
All religions brainwash. Why do you think Muslims strap bombs on themselves? It is usually the extremists that like to brainwash, after all you can't have people question them. Religions don't brainwash. Once you have crossed that line, you are no longer a religion, but something far more insidious. Brainwashing refers to a coercive technique or set of systematic techniques that usually incorporate torture, sleep deprivation, and other deprivements and intense psychological manipulations that break down the autonomy and thought processing of an individual. To apply such a term to loving, caring parents raising children in good conscience in unconscionable. So far two people on this forum have applied this term to a group to which I am a member and I am offended by this.

CarrionMan
24-06-06, 19:59
When I hear brainwashing, I imagine some Communists or otherwise holding you in a cell that looks like an interrogation room showing you endless propaganda and pumping you full of MADs.

No-name
24-06-06, 20:05
How about communists that threaten to beat you unless you clean up that disaster area you call a bedroom?

CarrionMan
24-06-06, 20:06
Never! I Will Never Clean My Room!

No-name
24-06-06, 20:10
Do you think everyone else knows that we are sitting in the SAME room!

If I was going to brainwash him, it would be to get him to clean his room and do his homework. Now where are those torture tongs and hoses?????

CarrionMan
24-06-06, 20:12
I'll use a pen against your tongs!

No-name
24-06-06, 20:12
Jim Jones, Heavens Gate, JWs, Branch dravidians, Movement for the restoration of the ten commandments of God. All call or called themselves Christian. And all were obviously not Christians. You can call yourself whatever you want, but if you use coercive methods and brainwashing you are clearly a cult.

CarrionMan
24-06-06, 20:14
Yep, he got that right. We bring through faith, not brainwashing, that's against the Bible.

Mycernius
24-06-06, 22:19
Didn't early Christianity start out as a Jewish cult? ;-)
Brainwashing of any sort happens as you go through life. When you sit in church a preacher will mention heaven and hell. Eternal reward or eternal damnation. If you believe in heaven or hell what are you going to go for. The man, or woman, in the pulpit is using threats of your afterlife to make you believe in the churches doctrine.

Brainwashing refers to a coercive technique
That is what a preacher is doing, same as an atheist is doing when not listening to your point of view. A hardened *insert faith here* is not going to listen to you. From what Macimo has mentioned in his posts it sounds like he attended a Jesuit school where questioning was not allowed. A case of "You will believe or suffer damnation". There are many faith schools where that does happen. Anyone who has been subjected to that will have a strong reaction to faith teachings, whether is was beaten into them, figuratively or literally, to believe. They either end up as extreme believers or extreme non-believers. Fear is the key to any coercive technique, whether it uses psychological techniques or physical. Overcome that fear and that is when you can freely choose.

On the room. Give the young wippersnapper a slap and no dessert.
Kids today, no respect for their elders and I fought the war for you

No-name
24-06-06, 22:54
Today is his graduation party (from Middle school to high school.)

Like I said earlier... If I were going to brainwash him, it wouldn't have anything to do with God, it would be to clean his room and get straight A's!

CarrionMan
25-06-06, 03:45
Ha! I will never do both! They require too much work. If there was a teacher who only lectured without giving assignments and gave me tests, or never gave me homework, I'd be fine. Schoolwork is easy to, however, homework is harder due to the part where I forget.

No-name
25-06-06, 04:13
How about bathing? Did you forget that, too?

CarrionMan
28-06-06, 01:21
I bathe everyday, thank you very much.