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Maciamo
18-06-06, 13:53
BBC News : Catalonia votes on autonomy plan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5091572.stm)


The Spanish region of Catalonia is voting on a new charter that would declare it a nation within Spain.

If the "yes" vote for greater autonomy is successful, Catalonia, in the north-east, would become one of Europe's most independent regions.

The draft plan allows for more independence in areas such as how tax is spent and immigration policies.

Latest opinion polls suggest most Catalans favour the plan, but more than half of all Spaniards reject it.

The proposal is supported by the Spanish government, Catalonia's ruling Socialists and moderate nationalists, but it is opposed by both the conservative Popular Party and leftists who favour outright independence.
...

I support the independence of Catalonia, as I do for the Basque country of any other region of Europe (Scotland, Corsica, Flanders...) that wishes it while staying in the EU. This is an important step in the process of increasing democracy (government closer to the people) and strengthening regional cultures within Europe. This is how I see Europe evolving toward more decentralised federalism, where the EU is one single market and economy, but each cultural nation-state has a maximum of autonomy for such things as education, taxation and regional laws.

Sensuikan San
19-06-06, 02:10
I agree.

Catalonia has waited an awful long time for this moment. It was, I believe, promised its autonomy by the Spanish Republican Government (along with the Basque provinces) waaaaay back in the 1930's ... but history intervened!

Non Pasaran!

However ... the question does have to be asked ....

Is there not an incongruity with this concept of regional autonomy and the growth of a European Union .... ?

Just a thought.

ƒWƒ‡ƒ“

Maciamo
19-06-06, 09:00
However ... the question does have to be asked ....
Is there not an incongruity with this concept of regional autonomy and the growth of a European Union .... ?
Absolutely not. They are even inter-dependent for a proper functionning of the EU. I wish this was explained more properly to the European population. There are still too many people who think that the EU will mean less autonomy for their region and the dissolution of their culture into a more and more uniformised nation that will ultimately speak a common language ! This is all what the EU is NOT about.

Since the beginning the EU (or EEC...) has always considered the respect of the diversity of Europe's cultural heritage a top priority. Their is a Committee of the Regions (http://www.eupedia.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump.cgi?ID=229841), which aim is to increase the participation of European regions in (European) community life. The EU may strife to harmonise the distribution of wealth around Europe, open borders and speak of one powerful voice to the international community... but there is no better guarantee for the preservation of regional cultures and languages than the European Union.

Here is an example of of it works. Since joining the EU, Belgium has been able to become an extremely decentralised federal country, and it wouldn't even be a problem if they country split in 2, 3 or 4 smaller nation-states, mainly because the EU guarantees that there won't be any borders, there won't be any visa required for people to go to work in Brussels if they live in Flanders or Wallonia, and with the Euro there also won't be a need to change currency all the time. Defence-wise, the EU protects smaller states, so that it is no longer required to have an oversized army for fear of being invaded by the bigger neighbour (like Taiwan and the Koreas now). Politically, there is no need to be a bigger country you get the same number of seats at the EU parliament, and the EU speaks for you in the world.

Thanks to globalisation (which is NOT EU-related), companies merge across borders and become more international anyway. Looking at Belgian banks, in a just over a decade they have all become international holdings (mostly Belgo-Dutch or Belgo-French). ING and Fortis for instance have branches in numerous European countries and even on other continents... This is just to illustrate that splitting countries in smaller entities doesn't change anything for companies, as in today's world comapnies are no longer national.

The same would be true for Catalonia and the Basque Country. Even splitting completely from Spain, it wouldn't change anything in terms or borders, currency, visas, companies... So why do it ? It gives the region more cultural autonomy on such things as education, tourism, social security or taxation, and so it makes people happy. Needless to say that "cultural groups" are directly linked to the language they speak. So why be Spanish when your mother-tongue is Catalan or Basque ?

Brett142
25-10-11, 07:22
I totally agree that Catalonia should by all means get its independence, but not now. Maybe when they create a United States Of Europe they could apply for 'statehood' just like I think Scotland, Bavaria, Corsica, the Basque country, Flanders etc.

Regional cultures are dying off and everybody knows it, why else would there be so much worry about it and so many regional and cultural protection? I think we all need to assimilate into a wider European society.

zanipolo
25-10-11, 09:09
I agree with maciano.

BTW, it seems the UK will leave the EU after today's vote.......80 MPs of Camerons party voted against him to get the UK out

Wilhelm
25-10-11, 16:23
I wouldn't want to be part of the EU, that is a joke of an institution.

sparkey
25-10-11, 17:42
I wouldn't want to be part of the EU, that is a joke of an institution.

You want an independent Catalonia with its own currency and no EU membership? Would it at least be in the Schengen Area, like Switzerland and Norway? How popular is that position in Catalonia? (Sorry for the barrage of questions; I'm genuinely interested in this topic.)

Cimmerianbloke
27-10-11, 02:18
I have lived three years in Tarragona, and even though I am a convinced European, I support Catalan autonomy with all my heart. There's all over Spain, but mainly in Madrid and in Andalusia a very strong anti-catalan feeling bordering on racism. Catalonia is very much in the same position as Flanders, language problems, massive amounts of money paid to keep other communities afloat, and a deep desire to have its destiny finally back into her own hands. The only difference being that Catalonia is full of immigrants (Spaniards and from abroad) who feel ostracised because they do not speak, and do not learn, Catalan. CiU, the party in charge, is aware of the chance being part of the EU is, and I cannot imagine them pulling away. As in other hot spots in Europe, they want to push for a referendum that would allow them to declare their independence. Note that the current economic situation might speed up the process if the PP candidate wins the election next year, as the polls seem to indicate.

Franco
08-11-11, 22:46
Given that the future Spanish government will be the Spanish right wing it's extremely odd that Cataluña will get the independence. It would have been more plausible during the weak administration of Mr Zapatero. As for those worried about things such as "preservation of regional cultures" why is it necessary to commit seccession from Spain to achieve that goal? Catalan is already an official language in Catalonia, Valencia (called Valencian there) and Majorca. Cervantes institutes around the globe teach Spanish and also the regional tongues like Catalan. It would make more sense that Occitania splits off from France, as Occitan is nowadays extremelly close to being an extinct language due to the hyper-centralization of the French Government which does not recognise the cultural diversity of France.

Cimmerianbloke
10-11-11, 02:26
Three days before the vote in 2004, the PP was given as winner. Then the attacks at Atocha happened, the rest is history... I think Spain needs the PP in charge, as the socialists haven't a clue about how the situation got that bad. Zapatero took publicly responsability in order to give Rubalcaba a chance to distance himself, even though all odds point to an overwhelming victory of the PP. The PP is notoriously anti-secessionist, and anti-catalan but they will have to deal with the autonomic regional governments, and CiU in Cataluña has the best cards to get what it wants.
Considering Occitania to get independence is no comparison, as no political party lobbies for it. The occitan promotion language organisations have problems founding students to fill their classes, never mind founding a secessionist party...

zanipolo
10-11-11, 03:47
Are we all saying here that if a people vote in a big majority to get independence, they cannot have it. ?

Do we live in the 21 st century or as I suspect do we all live in a "modern" feudal system which practices royaly and serfs.? a caste system like India has

Franco
10-11-11, 11:40
Three days before the vote in 2004, the PP was given as winner. Then the attacks at Atocha happened, the rest is history... I think Spain needs the PP in charge, as the socialists haven't a clue about how the situation got that bad. Zapatero took publicly responsability in order to give Rubalcaba a chance to distance himself, even though all odds point to an overwhelming victory of the PP. The PP is notoriously anti-secessionist, and anti-catalan but they will have to deal with the autonomic regional governments, and CiU in Cataluña has the best cards to get what it wants.
Considering Occitania to get independence is no comparison, as no political party lobbies for it. The occitan promotion language organisations have problems founding students to fill their classes, never mind founding a secessionist party...

Islamic attack in 2004 that benefited the socialist party was unexpected and similiar circumstance won't happen again. You can bet the righ wing will win Spanish elections and separatists will have no chance to promote their agendas as they will no have direct influence on the Government as they have right now because the socialist party did need their votes on the Parliament to pass the laws. I see this post is five years old. So where is Catalonia's independence? I can't see it. Nothing has changed even a little bit from then for practical purposes, Catalonia is the same Spanish region with the same degree of self-government as before, which is a lot compared to French regions. Well, something did, now the Spanish Constitutional Court has decided that the Catalan language must be the language to be used at schools alongside Spanish. So I would say secession in Catalonia is losing momentum. I agree that if big majority of Catalans want to commit secession sonner or later they will achieve it, but get your facts right, there is no majority of Catalans who desire being independent right now. Separatists are very loud but not majority.

Knovas
10-11-11, 13:34
¿Not a majority? ¿are you sure? Some people seem to forget easily: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WlSI1GxNjs (10/07/2010)

The largest crowd of people ever concentred in the whole Spain. It's too bad the crisis is kicking hard now, but this will surely emerge again.

Having an agenda is try to hide or minimize things. Time to think about it ;)

Franco
10-11-11, 20:29
¿Not a majority? ¿are you sure? Some people seem to forget easily: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WlSI1GxNjs (10/07/2010)The largest crowd of people ever concentred in the whole Spain. It's too bad the crisis is kicking hard now, but this will surely emerge again.Having an agenda is try to hide or minimize things. Time to think about it ;)I'm willing to keep a discussion with a separatist as long as he keeps some intellectual integrity and respects facts. You know as well as me that separatists are a minority in Catalonia. A sizeable minority like 20%? Maybe, but still a minority. You can bring up whatever survey made by separatist parties, but you must acknowledge that the best survey to know the will of Catalans is free elections, and no separatist party has won a single regional election in Catalonia, unless you try to convince me that the PSC, a branch of Spanish national socialist party for practical purposes, is a separatist party. No, it isn't and CiU who rules now regional Government isn't separatist as well, furthermore its leaders like Duran y Lleida talk now about collaborating with the Popular Party to overcome the economic crisis that affects the whole contry, of course Catalonia too. They may ask for a referendum timidly from time to time, but they use that just as a strategy to press the central government and get more privileges, they don't push for independence seriously and never will. You delude yourself thinking to the contrary. The only chance for Catalonia to commit seccession is separatist ERC winning the elections, and that is a sci-fi scenario so far. Bye.

Knovas
10-11-11, 20:56
Oh! talking about democratic elections with an incredibly high percent of abstention (equal to joke)...good point, yes xd. For you to understand: quite people who wants independence prefers not to vote in elections, simply because they don't feel themselfs represented by the ERC stupidity or other political options. Typical Spanish error to think ERC represents true independentism...keep dreaming, keep.

For this reason I didn't mention the referendums. Because according to them, vast majority of Catalans want independence, even the one made in Barcelona. However, there's also lack of participation there.

So considering this facts, I think the most objective way to measure this at the moment, is popular movilization. And like it or not, the Catalan manifestation was the biggest one ever made in Spain (possibly in Europe), wich for sure means something. And sorry for you: it won't be the last time you have to see more than a million Catalans in the street breaking all records.

This is just the beggining.

Franco
10-11-11, 21:31
Oh! talking about democratic elections with an incredibly high percent of abstention (equal to joke)...good point, yes xd. For you to understand: quite people who wants independence prefers not to vote in elections, simply because they don't feel themselfs represented by the ERC stupidity or other political options. Typical Spanish error to think ERC represents true independentism...keep dreaming, keep.For this reason I didn't mention the referendums. Because according to them, vast majority of Catalans want independence, even the one made in Barcelona. However, there's also lack of participation there.So considering this facts, I think the most objective way to measure this at the moment, is popular movilization. And like it or not, the Catalan manifestation was the biggest one ever made in Spain (possibly in Europe), wich for sure means something. And sorry for you: it won't be the last time you have to see more than a million Catalans in the street breaking all records. This is just the beggining.Those referendums you talk about had zero legitimacy . They were not recognised officially and were a complete fraud. For example 15 y.o. boys and girls were allowed to vote. In Barcelona, the least nationalist part of Catalonia, participation was 20%, according to the people who organised it. True numbers are probably much lower. But I'm talking about regular elections, where all parties concur and there is transparency. No separatist Catalan party has won so far, so most of Catalans are not separatists. Please accept facts and democracy, separatis lose all elections in Catalonia and always will because separatists are not majority in Catalonia. Organising parallel referendums manipulated by separatists where there existed even duplicated votes won't change that.

Knovas
10-11-11, 21:54
The referendums are the same democratic (free) as elections and, as I said, the lack of participation is evident in both. So you are the one who must accept facts, and understand that ERC does not represent nothing but a small portion of independentism in Catalonia.

I see you keep ignoring the hugest crowd of people ever seen claiming independence in the street. Now go and tell the people this was also manipulated, come on XD
PD: Nice nick. I'd better not ask why this choice :D

Kardu
10-11-11, 22:00
Well, I am not legitimate to participate in this discussion, but to my observation I'd say at least 80% of ethnic Catalans would vote for independence. I also have met quite some non-ethnic Catalans who also support secession.
The point is due to immigration from other parts of Iberia and elsewhere ethnic Catalans are not the majority in Catalonia any more.

Knovas
10-11-11, 22:08
Most people in Catalonia has roots in other parts of Spain, me included even when genetics show I'm different from main Spaniards.

That's not the point. Vast majority of people who was part of the manifestation wasn't 100% Catalan (sure), so is not necessary to have this condition.

Or perhaps I missed something in your understanding of "ethnic" in this case.

Kardu
10-11-11, 22:23
Considering that to me (correct me if I am wrong) confrontation and distinction between Catalans and Spanish is more cultural/political rather than ethnic (unlike e.g. Georgians vs. Russians) both entities descending more or less from the source population and speaking non-ethnic languages derived from an ancient conqueror (Latin), I define ethnic Catalans as having both surnames Catalan and speaking only Catalan at home.

Knovas
10-11-11, 22:30
Genetically is also possible to distinguish someone with totally or substantial Catalan ancestry, but the difference is not incredibly huge from other Spaniards. That's more exact to say.

Both Catalan surnames it's quite difficult today, and even having both surnames from here, it's not rare that a grandparent has a surname from another part and the person does not inherit it. I mean, the question is not than simple.

Kardu
10-11-11, 22:31
Genetically is also possible to distinguish someone with totally or substantial Catalan ancestry, but the difference is not incredibly huge from other Spaniards. That's more exact to say.

Both Catalan surnames it's quite difficult today, and even having both surnames from here, it's not rare that a grandparent has a surname from another part and the person does not inherit it. I mean, the question is not than simple. Ok, thanks, good to know

Franco
10-11-11, 22:32
Well, I am not legitimate to participate in this discussion, but to my observation I'd say at least 80% of ethnic Catalans would vote for independence.

That may have some logic, but it is not necessarily true unless you can present some evidences. There are non nationalist people with Catalan surnames and nationalists of non catalan extraction. Often the most radical Catalan nationalists are people of andalusian extraction who try to erase their non Catalan origin by acting as zealots. But once again they are minority, whether they are pure Catalans or not. Montserrat Caballé is a true Catalan mistress who belongs to the traditional catalan burgeoise and she always defended the hispanicity of Catalonia wherever she went abroad.

Cimmerianbloke
11-11-11, 03:56
I believe the PP coming to power is the best that can happen to Spain at the moment. A coalition PP-CiU in Cataluña is also the most interesting solution considering the economic disaster. On another hand, the PP is unlikely to get financial balance corrected in the coming years, and I believe there'll be political rioting when the government will have to plunder the Catalans pockets again. Fudder for nationalists...

Canek
29-11-11, 15:03
Catalonians are like tha last "indians" trying to win their freedom from the castillian opressors. All my best wishes to them. VISCA CATALONYA LLIUBRE!

Carlos
29-11-11, 17:22
Myths and lies of the Catalan nationalism.

" Catalonia suffers one district attorney pillaged ... Spain steals us!!! ”

This is a campaign of marketing where the lies are mixed with the atrocities. :grin:

We go step by step. " District attorney pillaged " wants to be said by him that to a community a fiscal different legislation is applied, a few tax different types, which in the rest. For example, there would be " district attorney pillaged " if in Catalonia the VAT out of 25 % when in the rest of Spain it is 16 % (at present it is 18 % in the whole Spain.). Or if in Catalonia the fiscal current Bonuses were not in force in the rest of the State. This is one I pillage.

Since that does not exist. The fiscal legislation is the same in the whole State, the tax types are the same, the bonuses also, and quite. Except ... a tax that is a competition of the Generalitat (the Tax of Successions and Donations), where the Generalitat does not want to apply by no means the similar deductions that they already enjoy in the rest of the State.
What the nationalists want to say with the expression " district attorney pillaged " is that the quantity, boor, of money collected in Catalonia is top that the quantity, boor, of money that is invested in the territory. That is to say: deficit.

It is logical. The richest regions will always suffer this difference. Germany already suffers it with regard to Ireland, for example... Or the Vale of Arán with regard to the Montsià, and Sant Cugat of the Vallés with regard to Ciutat Badia. And the Avenue Pedralbes with regard to the street Banhs Nous...

The richer is a region or territory, the more he suffers this difference.

Nevertheless, the one who more "suffers" in Spain is not Catalonia, but the Balearic Islands because ... they are richer than we. I would like already that Catalonia was still suffering more this deficit, because that would mean that it would be more prosperous of the one that it is now.
If Catalonia was independent ... this deficit would keep on existing. An independent Catalonia would save this deficit if:

1. The income was staying equal or was rising. Which is neither demonstrable nor believable. On the contrary, foreseeable that one is that the income goes down, seen the instability and the suspense, little friend of the economy.

2. The expenses were staying equal or they will go down. Which is radically impossible. An independent State needs expenses, that now we save ourselves: defense, army, exterior relations, financial provisions in the Central Bank and in economic international institutions, expenses of international organizations, contributions to the EU.

In the end, a bad business would be the independence: more expenses and less income, we would eat up the current "deficit" and we still would need more.

Myths and myths. This myth is like a campaign of marketing to obtain followers to the nationalistic cause. A pity that is a lie.

jurrian
30-11-11, 11:57
spain has been never famous for respect minor cultures... catalans probably have more liberty now than with Franco, but this not means they have plenty liberty now.

Carlos
30-11-11, 15:41
spain has been never famous for respect minor cultures... catalans probably have more liberty now than with Franco, but this not means they have plenty liberty now.

I see that the latter years the nationalism Catalan nationalist has been doing a big work of marketing counting lies.
Clearly Spain is a Constitutional state, with a constitution and a few laws that all the autonomous regions have to respect.

The nationalism Catalan nationalist, an invention prefabricated simply uses his arguments to try to go out privileged to the detriment of other regions, this is all the freedom for that they look: more money.

The Dictator Franco continued the line of the Borbones that was to privilege and to be of benefit to the regions of Catalonia and Basque Country, this way of simple, otherwise economically they would not have come to any place. At present the whole pataleo that the nationalists bring is to keep on being privileged, but the times have changed and that will not be possible.

Also all the Catalans do not think equally, all this of the nationalism of the regions is an invention, a machinery to extract money. Only 5 % of what is made in Catalonia sells abroad, the rest sells in Spain, aftermath of the Franco period, the nationalists are the last ones who want to separate of Spain.

One of his lies is to convince to the world that they are the only victims of the Dictatorship of Franco.

The Catalan nationalism is directed by 3 ó 4 related families between yes, that have managed to create all his world of fantasy and to implant it in the brain to some young people, they need to keep on having followers, fleecy clouds to continue in the power.

At present the Catalan nationalism is leading to Catalonia to the ruin, because they are simply bogeys that the only thing that they claim is to pillage the Spanish State: otherwise why do not they separate?: what do they already give?: do not they it do truth?, logician, they are not interested in.

Oriol
01-10-12, 12:38
Well, as a catalan in favour of independence, i have to say that the process is now going on in Catalonia, with a demonstration of 1,5 million people in Barcelona last 11th september with the slogan "Catalonia-next state in Europe", with more than 50% of the people of the country agreeing with the independence and with the european institutions keeping a significative silence about this fact.
Only from the spanish side, they have denied our claims and also have threatened us with militar intervention or international ostracism.

Knovas
01-10-12, 15:19
I am Catalan and I also want independence for Catalonia. I don't care what the Spaniards say, we're not afraid and we'll follow our own way.

Visca Catalunya :)

Oriol
01-10-12, 15:29
Visca Catalunya :)

Nice to see that here are more catalans:))

Visca Catalunya Lliure!

Sure, the indepence is near, perhaps closer than we expected only some months ago...

Knovas
01-10-12, 15:37
Hope so! now it's the time. Welcome to the Forum ;)

julia90
01-10-12, 17:23
Catalonia is right.. the unpruductive regions, that are also those who spend the more, can't be sustained by the virtous ones.. If not given tax and fiscal (to each the managin of his productiveness, and nor distributrion to the central capital city) federalism, secession is the only option.
Tax and fiscal federalism are the best options to develop also the unprudictive regions that in this way get responsible for their own.
It's the same situation in italy with the too much centralized power of Rome and the state; the unpruductive Mezzogiorno regions, and the virtuous ones above rome.

zanipolo
01-10-12, 20:47
last month I listened to 2 interviews between Barroso and Zaia ( president of the Veneto) , Baroso stated that the problems with the EU is that nations exist inside of it.......basically he wants nations out and only the EU to be regionally run ( easier and cheaper to bail out ) and with this he support the independence of the Veneto, Catalonia and Bavaria to name 3 .
Zaia ran a survey of 20000 veneti and the results where 54% for full indepenence and 89% for full atonomy i.e. keeping and setting the percentages of all taxes. ( Sicily keeps 100% of its taxes, so its already been done )

As far as I know Catalonia had 94% asking for independene a few years ago.

Will a system of regions over nations save the EU as well as aid the issue of cultural divide

Knovas
01-10-12, 22:28
Viviane Reding denied absurd claims saying Catalonia will not be part of the EU if finally become independent. On the other hand, the 94% percent you mention probably belongs to a "referendum" in a small Catalan village. Actually, at least 55% of the Catalans would be in favour of independence according to the last data, which is not bad at all.

Cambrius (The Red)
02-10-12, 19:28
Independence for Catalonia, although it may well be deserved, opens up a can of worms for other autonomous regions of Spain such as Viscaya and Galicia. The former would certainly push for independence and the latter, who knows.

Knovas
02-10-12, 21:41
In the Basque Country there's probably a national majority, but not in Galicia. The vast majority of people living in Galicia wants to remain in Spain, sure.

Kardu
03-10-12, 00:42
How do you define a Catalan? Who is Catalan?

Wilhelm
03-10-12, 03:37
How do you define a Catalan? Who is Catalan?
There are the etnic pure catalans (those have only catalan surnames), and the catalans of descend of the spanish immigrations, or a lot of mixed catalan-spanish. I don't consider extra-european immigrants as catalans..Catalonia in the north always has had french influence, well actually part of South France was part of the Great Catalonia until the 17th century, so some french are also catalan, those of Roussillón with many catalan origin surnames there also.

Alan
03-10-12, 04:29
BBC News : Catalonia votes on autonomy plan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5091572.stm)



I support the independence of Catalonia, as I do for the Basque country of any other region of Europe (Scotland, Corsica, Flanders...) that wishes it while staying in the EU. This is an important step in the process of increasing democracy (government closer to the people) and strengthening regional cultures within Europe. This is how I see Europe evolving toward more decentralised federalism, where the EU is one single market and economy, but each cultural nation-state has a maximum of autonomy for such things as education, taxation and regional laws.

Agree totally otherwise Catalans and Basques might disappear in the future.

Alan
03-10-12, 04:33
I agree.

Catalonia has waited an awful long time for this moment. It was, I believe, promised its autonomy by the Spanish Republican Government (along with the Basque provinces) waaaaay back in the 1930's ... but history intervened!

Non Pasaran!

However ... the question does have to be asked ....

Is there not an incongruity with this concept of regional autonomy and the growth of a European Union .... ?

Just a thought.

�W����

Not really, if you give the people the right to self government they will be able to work with each other more. If you force oeike to live together under one government it will always happen that the majority group will try to rule over the minorities. This is one of the main reasons why the Middle East is still not much progressed.

Kardu
03-10-12, 11:30
There are the etnic pure catalans (those have only catalan surnames), and the catalans of descend of the spanish immigrations, or a lot of mixed catalan-spanish. I don't consider extra-european immigrants as catalans..Catalonia in the north always has had french influence, well actually part of South France was part of the Great Catalonia until the 17th century, so some french are also catalan, those of Roussillón with many catalan origin surnames there also. Still language-based nationalism is hard for me to swallow :) And you mention mixed Spanish-Catalan etc. following that logic then who is Spanish? There might be no Spanish but Castillian, Andalucian etc.

Wilhelm
03-10-12, 19:36
Still language-based nationalism is hard for me to swallow :) And you mention mixed Spanish-Catalan etc. following that logic then who is Spanish?There might be no Spanish but Castillian, Andalucian etc.
Yes, these are spanish, the Castillian (Andalusians are also castillian) etc. the Kingdom of Spain is in fact the union the of the different kingdoms, which you can see on the coat of arms of the spanish flag : the Kingdoms of Leon (Galicia, Asturias, Leon, etc) , the Kingdom of Aragon (Catalonia, Aragon, Valencia, Balerics), the Kingdom of Castille (includes Andalucia, Murcia and both Castilles) and the Kingdom of Navarra (Navarra, Basque COuntry)

Kardu
03-10-12, 22:38
Yes, these are spanish, the Castillian (Andalusians are also castillian) etc. the Kingdom of Spain is in fact the union the of the different kingdoms, which you can see on the coat of arms of the spanish flag : the Kingdoms of Leon (Galicia, Asturias, Leon, etc) , the Kingdom of Aragon (Catalonia, Aragon, Valencia, Balerics), the Kingdom of Castille (includes Andalucia, Murcia and both Castilles) and the Kingdom of Navarra (Navarra, Basque COuntry)

But then following this reasoning Catalans are Spanish too...

zanipolo
04-10-12, 12:35
But then following this reasoning Catalans are Spanish too...

And if all these regions split from Spain there would be no more spanish, only catalans, castilians, galicians etc etc etc.....similar to yugoslavia.......there are no more yugoslavs once the different cultures departed.

Knovas
04-10-12, 13:38
Ok let's see. The Catalans are Catalans despite the fact we've never been independent. Our origins can be traced inside the Aragonese framework, as the union of different subregions called "Comtats". It's well documented since XII century aprox that those regions were known (as whole) as "Catalunya la Vella" (Cathalunya Veyla), and "Catalunya Nova" (Nova Cathalunya), this one's added after a while. People living there were, of course, Catalan speakers, hence they were Catalans and its culture and traditions survived until present days. That's the national inheritance, and it's true lots of things happened, but the Catalan identity wasn't destroyed.

Worth to mention that inside the Aragonese Kingdom, laws, institutions, and languaje, were respected.

Other regions apart from Catalunya have Catalan speakers (different dialects), but most of them are ok right now in Spain: Baleares, Valencia, and Eastern Aragón. The only region claiming independence is Catalunya, where the "original" Catalans are reported and have "always" been there, although it's not exactly the same as the combination of Catalunya la Vella + Catalunya Nova, but pretty similar. The fact is there seems to be substantial consensus in what it's Catalunya nowadays to achieve our own State for the first time.

And no, if the rest of the Iberian Peninsula (removing Portugal) prefers to be Spanish, they are going to be Spanish. Nothing will change concerning this.

zanipolo
04-10-12, 20:14
Ok let's see. The Catalans are Catalans despite the fact we've never been independent. Our origins can be traced inside the Aragonese framework, as the union of different subregions called "Comtats". It's well documented since XII century aprox that those regions were known (as whole) as "Catalunya la Vella" (Cathalunya Veyla), and "Catalunya Nova" (Nova Cathalunya), this one's added after a while. People living there were, of course, Catalan speakers, hence they were Catalans and its culture and traditions survived until present days. That's the national inheritance, and it's true lots of things happened, but the Catalan identity wasn't destroyed.

Worth to mention that inside the Aragonese Kingdom, laws, institutions, and languaje, were respected.

Other regions apart from Catalunya have Catalan speakers (different dialects), but most of them are ok right now in Spain: Baleares, Valencia, and Eastern Aragón. The only region claiming independence is Catalunya, where the "original" Catalans are reported and have "always" been there, although it's not exactly the same as the combination of Catalunya la Vella + Catalunya Nova, but pretty similar. The fact is there seems to be substantial consensus in what it's Catalunya nowadays to achieve our own State for the first time.

And no, if the rest of the Iberian Peninsula (removing Portugal) prefers to be Spanish, they are going to be Spanish. Nothing will change concerning this.

I could not agree more, ......interesting would be when the term spanish arrived as a people because they where not around as far as I know at the time of isabella......they where castilians and leonese forming a union and then the catalans and aragonese another.
But I feel its entirely up to the nation in question.....example, under Italian law/citizenship, there where no Italians until 1861, so the term prior to this was only a reference of people who lived in the Italian peninsula. I assume this would be similar to the term Spanish.

My opinion has always been and always will be........ is that if a people want independence from another, then they should have it without bloodshed it should be arranged by a body, the czech-slovak split is a good example..........so what if there are another 40 nations in Europe

Kardu
04-10-12, 22:17
Is there something like ethnic Catalan? For me it's bit funny to base nationalism (Catalan) and chauvinism (Castillan) on a language when both languages are derived from a language of conquering Romans...
Reminds bit a situation in Nigeria where there is a big rivalry and animosity between francophones and anglophiles...
For me ethnic identity is closely related to blood and descent rather than language which can change fast.

Knovas
04-10-12, 22:46
Catalan comes from Latin as other languajes do, and I can asure you people in Catalonia is very proud of this legacy. However, you're right that there's definetely nothing like a "Catalan Ethnicity" concerning genetics. When I use the term is mostly refered to people having almost all surnames from Catalonia, which is not easy to find. Genetically, people having strong Catalan ancestry (or Aragonese for instance) tends to be closer to Basques overall. This might indicate that people in the Northeast side did not really mix that much with Romans, but they were assimilated to the Roman lifestyle (learning latin).

The Basques, on the other hand, represent with its culture and genetics an ethnicity from at least the late Neolithic. I think they could have mixed with Celts, but they preserved their original languaje, which is so singular (a Pre-Indo European survivor). There were other Pre-Indo European languajes in what it's Catalonia and Aragon nowadays, which could be still spoken if the Romans did not do their job, but we know very little about this.

Kardu
04-10-12, 23:43
Moltes gràcies :) good overview of the situation, thanks

Wilhelm
05-10-12, 05:51
Is there something like ethnic Catalan? For me it's bit funny to base nationalism (Catalan) and chauvinism (Castillan) on a language when both languages are derived from a language of conquering Romans...
Reminds bit a situation in Nigeria where there is a big rivalry and animosity between francophones and anglophiles...
For me ethnic identity is closely related to blood and descent rather than language which can change fast.
Well, Catalan or for that matter Castillian developed here, in other words, they were created here, even if evolving from Latin. Another thing is the genetic question, I agree that ethnicity implies also genetics, and only Basques could form a different ethnicity (altough they are not as different as some people would like), but spaniards are pretty homogeneus genetically, altough there are some differences on an intra-iberian level, like ethnic Catalans being closer to French, the Aragonese closer to Basques, etc. And despite Catalan is a Roman derived langauge, and being a heavily Romanized region (actually the first region where Romans arrived in their conques of the Peninsula ), the Romans in Catalonia had a very low genetic impact, as seen by the very low levels of haplogroups J, or autosomal West-Asian, so abundant in the Italic peninsula, but which reach levels similar to northern europeans in Catalonia...

Knovas
05-10-12, 14:05
Yeah right, Catalans tend to be closer to French, although some of them are very close to Basques (I've seen at least a couple or three, including myself). Most populations in Europe have been influenced by others in relatively recent times, that's common. Following the mentioned pattern there's more reason to say there's no "French ethnicity", because from north to south the differences are noticeable (and even from Southwest France to Southeast France).

Carlos
12-10-12, 17:44
Nationalism Catalan regionalist think it was imported to Catalonia by Mr. Robert in a prefab and unnatural.


Do not forget that Catalonia had the Spanish market to itself with the approval of the dictatorship of Franco, was thus able to industrialize more, some people of course, because the working class never rich.



Regionalist nationalism invents, misrepresents history, lie more than blink, and they want to convince the world and to other Western European countries that are more European than the rest of Spanish.


But the truth is that they have never proved anything, the Olympics paid 92 the whole of Spain. Nationalists also had Spanir airline, which ended in disaster an accident with all passengers dead because the plane was not fit and finally the airline Spanair bankruptcy and closure.


Catalonia has never been a country, regionalist nationalists want comparse with the great European nations, but have never been, and never will have shown. Country already have a large part of which is Spain, it is not necessary to invent a country.

Moreover, it is regrettable that the BBC collect all the lies of catalan nationalism and published as truth, you want other European countries the destruction of the unity of Spain?


We note from Spain is not capturing the reality of our country abroad.


Even in a North American newspaper published a photograph of an African immigrant looking in a trash container, please! that immigrant and looking in the trash even when Spain's economy was better.


I advise the media of European and international comunición on the case of Catalan secessionist nacionalistmo contrary opinions are published and then they will realize who they really are as nationalists and lie.


Think you may be supporting or viewing kindly to a philosophy and ideology that is imported and that once the world got eradicate.


Do not be fooled.


Catalonia has always been favored by the centrality of Madrid to the detriment of other Spanish regions, so anyone gets rich.


After the Multinationals in Catalonia, Spain and the cake is shared between Madrid, Catalonia and the Basque Country, is outdated mentality, now today is equal to all Spanish and is at this point that the nationalists regionalist catalan does not want to, because they want to continue to have privileges and modern times say that this model no longer works, is retrogressive and discriminatory.

The regional government of Catalonia has been a bad manager, has wasted money, including its president Artur Mas salary charges more Rajoy who is the president of Spain.

Entrepreneurs of Catalonia are very angry about the position and the Catalan regional government statements.


What is produced in Catalonia, pizzas, sausage, wine, etc. bone more than 75% of what is produced in Catalonia are sold in the rest of Spain.


Nationalism served regionalist sentiment, the love that everyone has for their land, region or short cut in order to brainwash people, not sound to something?


Please international press that echoes the truth and other contrary opinions, thus they will realize the truth.


The regional government is using the feeling of the people to plug in a smokescreen their mismanagement, their uselessness as rulers and bad politics, disguising themselves as victims and thus present themselves to the world.

zanipolo
12-10-12, 20:13
Nationalism Catalan regionalist think it was imported to Catalonia by Mr. Robert in a prefab and unnatural.


Do not forget that Catalonia had the Spanish market to itself with the approval of the dictatorship of Franco, was thus able to industrialize more, some people of course, because the working class never rich.



Regionalist nationalism invents, misrepresents history, lie more than blink, and they want to convince the world and to other Western European countries that are more European than the rest of Spanish.


But the truth is that they have never proved anything, the Olympics paid 92 the whole of Spain. Nationalists also had Spanir airline, which ended in disaster an accident with all passengers dead because the plane was not fit and finally the airline Spanair bankruptcy and closure.


Catalonia has never been a country, regionalist nationalists want comparse with the great European nations, but have never been, and never will have shown. Country already have a large part of which is Spain, it is not necessary to invent a country.

Moreover, it is regrettable that the BBC collect all the lies of catalan nationalism and published as truth, you want other European countries the destruction of the unity of Spain?


We note from Spain is not capturing the reality of our country abroad.


Even in a North American newspaper published a photograph of an African immigrant looking in a trash container, please! that immigrant and looking in the trash even when Spain's economy was better.


I advise the media of European and international comunición on the case of Catalan secessionist nacionalistmo contrary opinions are published and then they will realize who they really are as nationalists and lie.


Think you may be supporting or viewing kindly to a philosophy and ideology that is imported and that once the world got eradicate.


Do not be fooled.


Catalonia has always been favored by the centrality of Madrid to the detriment of other Spanish regions, so anyone gets rich.


After the Multinationals in Catalonia, Spain and the cake is shared between Madrid, Catalonia and the Basque Country, is outdated mentality, now today is equal to all Spanish and is at this point that the nationalists regionalist catalan does not want to, because they want to continue to have privileges and modern times say that this model no longer works, is retrogressive and discriminatory.

The regional government of Catalonia has been a bad manager, has wasted money, including its president Artur Mas salary charges more Rajoy who is the president of Spain.

Entrepreneurs of Catalonia are very angry about the position and the Catalan regional government statements.


What is produced in Catalonia, pizzas, sausage, wine, etc. bone more than 75% of what is produced in Catalonia are sold in the rest of Spain.


Nationalism served regionalist sentiment, the love that everyone has for their land, region or short cut in order to brainwash people, not sound to something?


Please international press that echoes the truth and other contrary opinions, thus they will realize the truth.


The regional government is using the feeling of the people to plug in a smokescreen their mismanagement, their uselessness as rulers and bad politics, disguising themselves as victims and thus present themselves to the world.

I find the whole article bias and against most of what history tells us ( basically castilian propaganda) ..........who taught you the history of Spain?

Carlos
12-10-12, 21:35
^^

You still believe in the lies of the Catalan regionalist nationalism if you will, but totally lying.


Moreover Spain is not in the Middle Ages, we have that feeling in modern Spain, so their perception of modern Spain think that is contaminated by other times and you will have read in ancient history books.


The modern Spanish believe in equality and growth in Spain alike, is not feasible at present that Catalonia is privileged at the expense of other regions, there is no reason for it, no reason.


Separatist nationalists want to maintain the privileges that once gave the Bourbons and then the dictator Franco, but times have changed and not feasible in modern Spain.


I posted an article on this same thread over all Catalan government corruption within health, education, councils etc and is under the supervision of the moderators, I hope to be published and uncensored, because it is the other way around the world, the international media believing the lies of Catalan nationalism, Oh, my God, crazy!

Nationalists want to make the world believe that they are northern Europe or focuses, which are Europe's Germany, but the corruptions of their regional governments during the 30 years of democracy in Spain do not show it.


What have they shown?


1. Privileges in Spain for hundreds of years.
2. Having the market in Spain available for approval of General Franco, the dictator.
3. Being chosen ground in Spain to install most multinationals who came to settle in Spain.
4. Today many Catalan towns in foreign universities exemplify what it means to build poorly, poorly constructed cities to receive the payment bleeding in people who did other regions to have their citizens to emigrate to Catalonia, by the political plan was this.


What inventions Catalans there? What distinctly Catalan industry leader in the world are there?


What can boast to differentiate themselves in Spanish?


Are the same as the rest of Spanish that make different regions with a common history. They are not the only ones who love their region other regions also love our home, but we also love the unity of Spain, our country.

In schools of Madrid, Murcia, Andalusia, Extremadura, etc. not taught children hatred and resentment towards Spain, do you know that schools are indoctrinated Catalan children in alienation of Spain?


In summary:


Catalan nationalists want to compare with the rich Europe, but have not proven anything, it's all words and aesthetics. With the privileges granted by Spain itself have enriched a little more than the rest, have been ground multinational policies Catalan Spain itself, but Catalonia is currently in deficit and is impoverished, once they leave the multinationals, not is nothing, invented nothing, or created a distinctly Catalan industry relevant importance.


So I do not know why both boast and try to convince the world that are different from other Spanish, Western culture, like any other region of Spain, small differences folk, but then to copararse with the great European nations, it seems something outrageously ridiculous, you can only see and believe people actually seek the destruction of the unity of Spain as a country.

All nationalism creates an imagined nation and political fetish becomes locked flag all personal and collective frustrations of its components.


They want to be because they are neither were.

Economically there are only Barcelona and Tarragona, and territorial term "Catalan" exists only in the nationalist voluntarism emerged in the nineteenth century and the manipulations of its institutions.


The "old kingdom" but as there was no county subservient to Aragones, whose flag copied.

All interventions Catalan national politics have been interested and dire: Cambo in the stage of Primo de Rivera, the solution within the First Republic, the agitations of the II, the betrayal of his allies in the Civil War, the permissiveness of Franco with them and the constant harassment in the current democracy.

Navarra and the Balearic Islands have a higher per capita income, and Madrid (the obsession of Catalan) beats Barcelona in trade and industrial investment, and above all, even without the market would be less, capital and labor Spanish.

Lost all American territories, demanded absolute protectionism and created a captive market as its underdeveloped and little industry reinvested.

Their ideology born of reactionary Catholic, as in Basque, and their "integration" is the reverse of the racist attitude: to deny the other.


His apparent political "progressives" in the socio-cultural serve to hide their purposes, dilute to the left and democratic forces and eliminate resistance of the people and culture (especially language) Spanish.

Knovas
13-10-12, 15:43
The posts above are extremely embarassing, full of lies and and sometimes only showing one side of the coin. If one tells that the national identity of Catalunya could be only traced to the XIXth century, obviously is not versed in history...well, that was clear since the begining reading such an amount of strange things. Note that we don't read anything about the Catalan language in all of this, and the guy pretends Catalunya is the same as other regions. We speak Catalan and Castillian in perfect harmony despite the fact our original language is Catalan, so if someone tries to make believe things are not like this, it's simply totally biased.

Catalunya has no privileges, rather the opposite. It is contributing to the rest of communities a lot more than the average does, and the Spanish state does not follow their own laws. They are not paying the money required in the Catalan law (with the aproval of Spain), and they are not complying their budget in Catalunya concerning infrastructures since a very long time. Morover, with all the money they should give to Catalunya (and they don't), we still have to ask for money under conditions...a shame. This, of course, does not include taxes: 50% of it goes to the rest of Spain, being Catalunya one of the most important regions, and really apreciated for destination during holidays of people from all over the world.

Madrid is the community having most of the privileges, and if it became more productive than Catalunya it's only due to the fact that they recived more money for infrastructure, and because the Spanish state authorised more direct flights to Madrid and not to Barcelona. What they achieved with this, is that it became easier for business to settle in Madrid, clear as day. Despite of this, Catalunya still has its own place in the world, and it's the most important region concerning outputs: near 55% of its production goes to the rest of the world, that is a lot more higher than Madrid or other regions, and it's definetely a strong point to go on once we become independent.

We (Catalans) are doing our job, and for more they lie, shout, or cry, doesn't matter, if the vast majority of us wants to become independent, we'll have it for sure. Time to accept it ;)

zanipolo
13-10-12, 21:07
The posts above are extremely embarassing, full of lies and and sometimes only showing one side of the coin. If one tells that the national identity of Catalunya could be only traced to the XIXth century, obviously is not versed in history...well, that was clear since the begining reading such an amount of strange things. Note that we don't read anything about the Catalan language in all of this, and the guy pretends Catalunya is the same as other regions. We speak Catalan and Castillian in perfect harmony despite the fact our original language is Catalan, so if someone tries to make believe things are not like this, it's simply totally biased.

Catalunya has no privileges, rather the opposite. It is contributing to the rest of communities a lot more than the average does, and the Spanish state does not follow their own laws. They are not paying the money required in the Catalan law (with the aproval of Spain), and they are not complying their budget in Catalunya concerning infrastructures since a very long time. Morover, with all the money they should give to Catalunya (and they don't), we still have to ask for money under conditions...a shame. This, of course, does not include taxes: 50% of it goes to the rest of Spain, being Catalunya one of the most important regions, and really apreciated for destination during holidays of people from all over the world.

Madrid is the community having most of the privileges, and if it became more productive than Catalunya it's only due to the fact that they recived more money for infrastructure, and because the Spanish state authorised more direct flights to Madrid and not to Barcelona. What they achieved with this, is that it became easier for business to settle in Madrid, clear as day. Despite of this, Catalunya still has its own place in the world, and it's the most important region concerning outputs: near 55% of its production goes to the rest of the world, that is a lot more higher than Madrid or other regions, and it's definetely a strong point to go on once we become independent.

We (Catalans) are doing our job, and for more they lie, shout, or cry, doesn't matter, if the vast majority of us wants to become independent, we'll have it for sure. Time to accept it ;)

i can only agree with you, besides the kingdom of aragon was based on argonese and catalans, ......there is also the catalan company
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Company

and many other information that the catalans/argonese/navaresse where indeed around longer than the castilians/leonese

Carlos
13-10-12, 21:59
Zanipolo in Spain do not feel to be in the Middle Ages, I say if you think otherwise.


You can say that Madrid, the Basque Country and Catalonia have divided the Spanish market for too long already, and have expense of other Spanish regions.


This approach is already outdated, does not work, is not equal.


Modern Spanish mentality is not to inequality and discrimination among citizens, in that sense you could say that regionalist nationalism not have returned to the Middle Ages rather to the caverns.

Carlos
29-10-12, 16:57
Coca Cola leaves Catalonia to settle in Madrid

Cobega has convened general meeting of shareholders on 26 November, in which he intends to give the green light to the new structure.

The balance of the tilt ended some European managers of The Coca-Cola Company, which moved the desirability of raising all possible firewall against hypothetical trade boycotts. Despite the global nature of the product, the U.S. multinational wants the minimum exposure and political neutrality as possible.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Ludger Fretzen, president of Volkswagen-Audi Spain: "If Catalonia becomes independent, the headquarters will move to Madrid"

The statements of the highest representative of the Volkswagen Group in Spain, whose headquarters are located in Barcelona, are the result of the sovereigntist discourse of President of the Generalitat of Catalonia, Artur Mas, which aims to bring this community to independence, separating it from Spain. In this regard, Fretzen recognized that he had already met with Human Resources team to discuss the potential transaction.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lara: "If it were independent Catalunya, Grupo Planeta would have to go"

Jose Manuel Lara Andalusian and founder of the largest Spanish-language publishing.

Planeta Corporación, S.R.L., doing business as Grupo Planeta, is a Spanish media group based in Barcelona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelona). The company operates in Spain, Portugal, France and Latin America. Editorial Planeta, its flagship, was founded in 1949. Planeta owns over 70 publishing houses worldwide. It publishes the newspapers La Razón (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Raz%C3%B3n_(Madrid)) and ADN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADN_(newspaper)). Besides publishing, the group operates in the areas of collectibles, training, direct marketing, distance learning, and audiovisual media. With its purchase of Editis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editis) in 2008, it became one of the largest publishers in the world, with over 1 billion dollars of revenue that year.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Artur Mas is becoming the best ambassador of Madrid. Companies Catalonia flee, flee surrealism.


Catalonia, Artur Mas intended to continue in the EU keep the euro and belongs to NATO, all for the nose.


The regional government of Catalonia have been poor managers, Artur Mas salary charges more Rajoy, have ruined their region and blame the rest of Spain not to take responsibility, the best way is to go to the request for independence as a threat to the Spanish and disrupting the unity of Spain at a time of crisis where it is best to unite and work hard.


Businesses are fleeing the secessionist ridiculous surrealism.

Carlos
29-10-12, 17:08
An independence activist has 5,000 complaints against businesses in five years by use Spanish

Seuba a librarian of 32 years, has five years traveling throughout Catalonia to inform on any employer who does not use Catalan in the labels. The Generalitat has imposed more than a thousand sanctions for this reason since 2004 for a total of over one million euros. However, the Constitutional Court ruled that the fines are illegal language.

Catalonia has traveled notebook in hand scoring establishments data whose labels were not written in Catalan. From the Costa Brava to the Costa Dorada, from Barcelona and many municipalities in the metropolitan area and inland walks Seuba says he made ​​up to ten hours a day as if it were consumer inspector.


The Grand Inquisitor recognizes that it has a network of fifty contributors, in addition to inform entrepreneurs who dare to use Castilian in their shops, sign some allegations that he fills.


Is not this sound like something?

So are these people and this is the persecution suffered by many citizens.

Can you be more ridiculous pursue Spanish in Spain?

It's time to know where they are and to wash the brains.

The world once ended with "them", we will do ...

Knovas
29-10-12, 23:17
This guy has serious issues: now he strikes again with more lies.

Cobega is going to settle in Madrid, NOT Coca-Cola, and this was decided long ago. Nothing to do with independence. About Volkswagen-Audi Spain, it makes perfect sense moving it to Spain (Madrid) if Catalonia gets independence. What it's pretty silly, is to assume there will not be Volkswagen-Audi Catalonia. ¿Or do you pretend they're going to risk their business in Catalunya due to this? In short: nonsense.

Lara said he may have to move part of their business, but not all. However, it doesn't matter, actually Planeta is not important, even for Lara. He gets money by doing other things.

Maybe we should talk about Seat and their great inversion for the Leon model production. And, ¿what about Fox Head? ¿Don't like the idea they choose Barcelona to sell all over Europe? What a pitty xd

Fortunately, not all Spanish people behaves like insane while dealing with Catalunya's independence. But, obviously, quite people do, specially inside Spanish politics. A shame...

Carlos
30-10-12, 00:47
^^

Yes indeed a shame the lies told by the separatists.

A real shame enhance endophobia, hatred and resentment for their own country.

Lies, lies, that everyone hears and all the ends of the earth may know the lies of a ridiculous and absurd nazionalismo that can threaten and destabilize their own country at a time of maximum crisis, manipulating and lying on history, for any economic and social data of a hypothetical independence of Catalonia.


But they're going to get, not the lie, the lie has triundado never, ever lie to the Gloria is reached, hatred never rule the world.

"Catalonia for sale, buyer take over payments.

Carlos
04-11-12, 19:31
MARÍA CUESTA / MADRID

Día 04/11/2012 - 17.05h

When the "pull" independence sentimental appeal Artur Mas was beginning to waver the first symptoms of the shift in the President's speech was the Generalitat book. In economic crisis, battered played pocket appeal to citizens to score against Madrid supporters. The germ of the economic injury was years maturing in Catalan society and was an asset politically infallible.


But economic arguments should match the numbers and deepen the thesis of the independence movement involves exposing a cluster of traps that have not overlooked major international investment banks. The Union Bank of Switzerland (UBS), the Japanese bank Nomura and JP Morgan's U.S. entity, true poodles of thousands of investors around the world have posted respective reports that much of the sales pitch collapse used by the Generalitat. In short, more debt and more deficits, and, of course, greater reluctance of international investors towards a territory, independent, very likely be out of the euro and the European Union.


It is true that this hypothetical new state taxes entirely would be generated in the territory (the tax currently raises about 32,000 million in Catalonia, money that would go to the new state if it maintained the current tax structure). Since budgeted revenues in 2012 of the Generalitat exceed 24,750 million, the money collected for the coffers would Catalan additional resources of about 7250 billion. But those revenues would be insufficient to cover the new expenses.


The independent Catalonia should take the share of the current state públicadel debt and would face new charges that are now covered with the common box. The payment of pensions, unemployment benefits, the service of foreign policy and military defense structure are just a few examples that have brought out the big banks experts internationally, have made clear they do not believe the But independence chimera.


"Economically unimaginable»
The firm Nomura did not hesitate to give a reality check to feint the president of the Generalitat, Artur Mas, "The financial position of Catalonia suggests that a referendum is very unlikely due to its dependence on state funding." The application of Catalonia over 5,000 million Autonomous Liquidity Fund (FLA) to meet expenses such as staff payroll or pay suppliers, is undoubtedly one of the main contradictions of independence challenge. And they exposed the Japanese bank, one of the most influential investment firms in markets: "In terms of market implications of event risk, we believe that a vote on independence is the worst possible scenario."


"Multiply the image of instability in Spain»
But the main argument of the Japanese entity is based on the impossibility of the challenge to the practice: "It would be economically unthinkable, especially for the size of the banking sector Catalan 'which, he says, suffer" negative consequences such as the flight of deposits. " And is that the large banks based in Catalonia, La Caixa Sabadell, has long ceased to be Catalans in terms of business and have a significant-and growing-presence in the country. This not only happens to the banks. Flagships of Catalan business as Natural Gas are, in practice, large multinationals operating nationally and internationally.
The bank Nomura also highlights the damage that the initiative of Artur Mas is doing the whole of Spain at a time of particular sensitivity of the markets. The bank says in fact that progress electotal could "accelerate the dynamics that lead to a ransom demand for Spain." "The events in Catalonia could not come at a worse time for the Government of Mariano Rajoy," he says. However, the entity qualifies: "In our opinion, this is a speech with which, in reality, the region plans to expand its fiscal autonomy." Because that generate noise elections and independence rhetoric merely multiply the image of instability in the country in the face of some investors already reluctant to Spain, concludes the Japanese.


"A bleak future and disastrous"
"Can Catalonia leave Spain? The short answer is no. " It's sharp displays the Swiss investment bank UBS in a report distributed among its customers and which removed one by one the economic arguments put forward by More in his pulse independence. The bank assumes that "the Spanish Constitution is quite clear" and Article 149 states that only the central government can authorize a referendum. Yet the bank's exercise goes further: "Assuming that the consultation is carried out and Catalonia finally declares independence, what are the economic forecasts? We think gloomy and disastrous. "


"The new nation would have great obstacles fisclaes»
Let's see why. Catalonia's debt guaranteed by Spain at the end of the year will amount to 42,000 million euros, which represents 21% of GDP. "This will become one of the least indebted countries in Europe," he says. Of course, then clarifies: these numbers do not include the division of the assets and liabilities of the entire State. "And that's the key," says UBS. Making a move in proportion, the bank estimates that, really, the independent Catalonia debt would soar to 78.4%, in line with the figure for the whole of Spain.
The most "tricky" is in Swiss bank plabras the effect that independence would have on the deficit. Catalonia ended 2011 with a deficit of 3.7% of GDP, so that, assuming good numbers provided by the Government of Mas, who argues that this region contributes 8% of GDP in Spain, secession would be a surplus 4% for Catalonia. However, UBS doubts these calculations because "ignore how divided the assets of the State" and "the great tax obstacles" that the new nation would. For starters, Catalonia must meet the payment of more than 7,000 million in debt maturities in 2013 and access to funding markets has closed. In fact, UBS notes that the region has had to resort to Autonomous Liquidity Fund (FLA), "so the workout with investors would be very difficult."


But the big question for investors would, according to UBS, would be this: "Where would stand financially Catalonia?». The bank itself gives the answer: "In Europe it seems not. It would be out of the EU and the Eurozone, "he says. A major problem when measuring the risk of the new country. "It would be disastrous", says UBS, who claims that he would close the export market and that costs would increase by having to launch a new currency. "The bankruptcy exit of banks and a sharp fall in wealth and income would be very likely" by the unstoppable effect the flight of capital. In addition, local financial institutions such as La Caixa Sabadell or would not have the safety net of the ECB.


"It would improve the fiscal situation»
U.S. bank JP Morgan shoots the heart of the separatist discourse: the alleged economic advantages of Catalonia as a nation. «Catalan not improve its fiscal path in an environment of independence," he says. In its recent report entitled "The real challenge asks questions Catalan to Europe", the entity considers that the alleged majority support of the Catalans to secession is not credible, stresses the illegality of an independence referendum in Catalonia, states that, if secession, Catalonia would be outside of the European Union and put black on white CiU actually settle for greater fiscal autonomy for the region.


However, JP Morgan warning of the hazard of the movement, which can give rise to other regions and even other EU countries, initiate similar claims. The bank also highlights the costs, if a hypothetical independence, should assume that actuamente assumes Catalonia and the Government, as administrative expenses, defense or security. "In a favorable scenario, with minimal transition costs, without producing a significant break trade with the rest of Spain, by reference to the fiscal deficit by the most pro-nationalist interests and estimating the costs assumed by the Government moderately, the benefit of secession would not reach 3% of GDP "he says.

Knovas
05-11-12, 00:51
1- To copy paste using google translator is not a good idea. It looks really bad.

2- Some of you, Spaniards, should stop caring about what Catalunya will do without Spain, and better focus on your own future, which is terrible with or without Catalunya according to most scholars.

3- The ABC, Mundo, País, and similar Spanish press, has never been reliable when refering to Catalunya's independence, since they obviously show things in the way they like them to be, not how things would be (aproximately).

4- The article fails since the beginning claiming some things as truth, which are far from being demonstrated: Out of the EU and the Euro currency. Actually, most people having important business in Catalunya, specially those who belong to other countries of the EU, laugh out loud at this possibility. ¿Do you really think more than 4000 companies would renounce to their rights in Catalunya? Not easy, none of the countries having interests in Catalunya would agree with this.

5- Other stupidities: the Spanish debt belongs to Spain, so, first of all, if they want we keep some part of this, they would have to offer something. Without any negociations it's very difficult, not to say impossible. However, while we are part of Spain, we have to pay what it's due, so using the mentioned argument of this money to say it's nonsense to seek independence, it's basically the real nonsense: if we're part of Spain we'll have to pay this, if not, we'll see.

6- ¿Aren't you, Spaniards who act this way, tired of the ridiculousness emanating from you? Not only economically speaking, but also refering to questions concerning self determination. The whole world can't believe in Spain is not possible to ask the Catalans about their own future. ¿Is that what wou want to show? The international projection of Spain is getting worse since a very long time, and now its brand means nothing but rubbish to most people, specially in the rest of Europe and the EE.UU. Seriously, It's time to solve your problems so, please, stop acting like insane.

7- Good night! ;)

Carlos
05-11-12, 02:52
In Spain (Catalonia included of course) have no absolute monarchies or dictators, sorry but you can not give privileges to Catalonia at the expense of other regions. Absolutist dictators and kings may give privileges to Catalonia regions over others, but the Spanish mentality is present in Europe. The Spanish have a mentality where there is no privilege Catalonia why? I understand that Catalonia is accustomed to the privileges of decades, even centuries ago, but times have changed and a country is to ensure that all regions achieved an excellent standard of living.


It is more convenient to have privileges, but we must work hard for Spain, we have a crisis and there is no room for selfishness. Spanish is now is solidarity and responsibility.


If longer Spanish Catalonia also longer European, a paradox when you consider that the secessionists always go around bragging that they are more advanced and Europeans and the rest of Spanish are behind, smacks that gives life when someone thinks up!


If you no longer stop Spanish EU membership Forces throughout the mouth!


There's the door, get out when they want.

I love being Spanish and I love Spain, I'm a Democrat, solidarity and desire that all regions of Spain to work well, and also throughout Europe and the world.


Please archaic and outdated mentalities are not accepted in Spain.

Certainly foreign people must know what they are really the secessionists, know that the secessionists have many decades by eating the head of the foreign press and publicizing their cause, with lies of course. That is why the foreign press does not quite capture reality very well.


Here is a sample of historical quotes of these people, hateful nonsense authentic free to their own country, which is Spain:

"We will be the fourth power in Europe, and Europe is proud to have finally a civilized state in southern Europe ...".
(Isabel-Clara Simó, writer and candidate number 4 per Barcelona Catalan Solidarity independence in Catalonia regional elections of 2010, predicting the situation of Catalonia secesionada. November 30, 2010).


"When you turn the cake, that independence is not is a traitor."
Joel Joan, actor, promoter Sobirania i Progrés platform-organizer of the informal consultations on secession-founder and president of the Catalan Film Academy, the same month subsidized by the tripartite 625,000 euros. September 15, 2010).

"We charge to anyone who gets in our way."
(Joan Carter, Reagrupament leader, at the opening of a branch of the separatist party in Gerona. February 27, 2010).


"The police have to speak Catalan in Catalan, has to stick even in Catalan."
(Manuel Cuyàs, deputy director of the newspaper El Punt, during a protest against the actions of the Mossos d'Esquadra in a student demonstration which injured several journalists. March 20, 2009).

"In Catalonia There can`t be quality service commercially without speaking Catalan."
(Josep-Lluís Carod-Rovira, vice president of the Generalitat. November 7, 2008).

"The nationalist not feel or want to own no right to live."
(Javier Maqueda, Basque Nationalist Party senator during his speech as guest speaker at the 18th Congress of the Socialist Party of Mallorca. May 30, 2006).

"We would be totally incomprehensible that someone from Catalonia would support the candidacy of Madrid 2012".
(Josep-Lluís Carod-Rovira, vice president of the Generalitat. November 26, 2004).

"I've tried a lifetime struggle for non-violent way. But I declare here and I say out loud in case I hear a police or prosecutor: I declare the Spanish state enemy and friend of ETA and Batasuna.
(Lluís Maria Xirinacs, religious and separatist former senator, in his speech at a rally in Barcelona. September 11, 2002).

"Not included no luxury, but tools that make my job easier. The idea was to make the car a mobile office. "
(Ernest Benach, concierge and former president of the Catalan regional parliament, on the commotion made ​​in crisis by the installation in his official car a custom wooden desk, television, mp3, bluetooth and footrest, which cost 9276 euros of treasury public. Oct. 27, 2008).

Kardu
05-11-12, 13:37
http://www.expatica.com/es/news/spanish-news/to-be-or-not-to-be-catalonia-as-an-independent-state_249391.html

Carlos
05-11-12, 16:23
The issue of independence in Catalonia are handling about 6 families related to each other.


About 400 people live like kings with Catalan autonomy, is the new Catalan aristocracy.


It makes me laugh at the rich and poor regions, are misapplied terms, in Catalonia the working class has the same salaries garbage in the rest of Spain. This independence is a business for a few people, the people are being manipulated and the concessions made ​​PP or PSOE nazionalistas to have been fatal in the long run in the social and economic spheres since nazionalistas or Catalan rulers have been poor managers of Catalan autonomy.


Also point out that you can not talk about Spain-Catalonia in terms of bilateralism because these are two states, Catalonia is a region of Spain.


Spain has 17 autonomous communities, it is wrong to think that in Catalonia and Spain on the other hand, is a part of the confusion and manipulation of language by nazionalistas.

Catalonia in recent years has been depleted, are performed many boycotts of products made in Catalonia, many multinationals have gone and what little industry there were clearly small Catalan subsidiaries of multinational companies that manufactured small accessories multinationals, in these 30 years there is no distinctly Catalan industry, have not invented anything, nor have they created anything himself. 92 Olympics, enlarged Prat Airport, the TGV, etc has paid all the Spanish state.

S & P degrades 'junk' the
rating of Catalonia and alert
tensions over fiscal pact




Standard & Poor's also degrades the debt rating of Catalonia. Just as it did last May Moody's, the rating agency has also downgraded today the region note junk bond level, lower it after two steps, from 'BBB-' to 'BB'. The cut comes after the Government confirmed this week to attend the Autonomous Liquidity Fund and EUR 5.023 million claim to the inability to obtain financing itself.
"The downgrade of Catalonia is motivated by the growing tensions between the region and the central government, and the potential negative impact we believe that these tensions may have on the ability to obtain financing Catalonia", explains in his statement S & P. The agency warning of a weak credit profile of the community, the deterioration of its liquidity and the high dependence on state support to cover its debt maturities.
S & P warns, in particular, the consequences of which could carry the Catalan Government's claim to change the regional financing system, articulated last July about the fiscal compact. A requirement that "increases the uncertainties" and "can damage the necessary coordination between the regional and central administration for the smooth implementation of the financial assistance from the Government and can weaken the will of the Government to support under certain scenarios."


You can see that region rich nothing. In the past it was for the privileges that gave the Bourbons and after General Franco. Think that Catalonia had to herself the whole Spanish market and in all that time and with that advantage has not created a distinctly Catalan industry and strong, has simply put their land to multinationals were coming, nothing more.


Now is angry because times have changed and will not fit a igualitara Spain, want to continue to have privileges and sorry, that's better for them to go, many Spanish would agree to leave, as the Catalan mentality is outdated and archaic and believe in discrimination and the mentality of the rest of Spain is more advanced and is more universal and wants equality and growth for Spain as a whole.


It's a problem of not adapting to changing times.

Knovas
05-11-12, 16:40
All the statements you mention are fairly recent and the consequence of the relation with Castille/Spain since the XVIII th century. Even if Catalonia has never been independent, inside the "Aragonese" framework (Corona de Aragón) there was freedom to preserve its languaje and institutions, and since 1714 that depends only on Spain, forbidding everything and everytime they wanted: that includes languaje, traditions, institutions, and laws from the Catalan parliament during democracy. So it's perfectly understandable some people need to express such a disagreement, maybe not always using the proper words, but it's all due to the mentioned problem. Following this way, there's no place for Catalunya inside Spain, and people won't renounce to their will of one day becoming independent.

The article is interesting Kardu. It points many of the things I already mentioned, specially concerning the EU, the Euro, and the Spanish debt (which belongs exclusively to Spain for more they claim we must assume some part of it). However, it's true that this are hard times, and the process to get independence is not an easy task and will take some time. Outside Catalunya some people could think there's not really a national majority in Catalunya, but wait until 25-N and you'll see what's going on. 3 weeks, that's it :)

PD: It's very funny when they try to show we're not only rich, but even poor, and they still don't want an independent Catalunya. ¿What's the problem if we're so poor? Much better for you Spaniards! jaja. Sorry to say this but...it's incredibly ridiculous to talk about obvious things such as this one.

Carlos
05-11-12, 17:39
Yes, yes, more lies and nonsense:


Columbus was Catalan, La Gioconda is based in the Virgin of Montserrat, E, T, copied Spilberg a cartoonist catalan, what else? please, that desire for prominence


Yes, yes, and says that independence: "We will be the fourth European power"


To love SPAIN is to love EUROPE.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8CjaKDUAQo

I dedicate this video of one andalusian woman and a murcian man, for you whit the spanish love for you.

Knovas
05-11-12, 18:14
And now the guy seems to care if Columbus was Catalan and other theories, which no way are presented as truth, not at least by most of the Catalans. Come on, be serious.

There you are what the Spanish goverment is trying to hide, making Spaniards (like you) believe Spain has total control of the situation: http://www.salaimartin.com/randomthoughts/item/467-dos-im%C3%A1genes-que-demuestran-que-catalunya-independiente-estar%C3%A1-en-la-ue.html

The article is in Castillian, very easy for you, if someone else wants to read it, possibly google translator will help. It basically points to the obvious, also mentioned in the article posted by Kardu, and some things also published by other international media (not in Spain, time to wonder why). Sala i Martín is, by the way, one of the most popular Catalan economists, and he is well known in the EE.UU. for his good job.

Time to open your eyes little guy, that's how things work. Most Catalans right now simply laugh out loud at the Spanish threats. The best one can do in such a pathetic scenario, of course.

zanipolo
05-11-12, 20:02
The issue of independence in Catalonia are handling about 6 families related to each other.


About 400 people live like kings with Catalan autonomy, is the new Catalan aristocracy.


It makes me laugh at the rich and poor regions, are misapplied terms, in Catalonia the working class has the same salaries garbage in the rest of Spain. This independence is a business for a few people, the people are being manipulated and the concessions made ​​PP or PSOE nazionalistas to have been fatal in the long run in the social and economic spheres since nazionalistas or Catalan rulers have been poor managers of Catalan autonomy.


Also point out that you can not talk about Spain-Catalonia in terms of bilateralism because these are two states, Catalonia is a region of Spain.


Spain has 17 autonomous communities, it is wrong to think that in Catalonia and Spain on the other hand, is a part of the confusion and manipulation of language by nazionalistas.

Catalonia in recent years has been depleted, are performed many boycotts of products made in Catalonia, many multinationals have gone and what little industry there were clearly small Catalan subsidiaries of multinational companies that manufactured small accessories multinationals, in these 30 years there is no distinctly Catalan industry, have not invented anything, nor have they created anything himself. 92 Olympics, enlarged Prat Airport, the TGV, etc has paid all the Spanish state.

S & P degrades 'junk' the
rating of Catalonia and alert
tensions over fiscal pact




Standard & Poor's also degrades the debt rating of Catalonia. Just as it did last May Moody's, the rating agency has also downgraded today the region note junk bond level, lower it after two steps, from 'BBB-' to 'BB'. The cut comes after the Government confirmed this week to attend the Autonomous Liquidity Fund and EUR 5.023 million claim to the inability to obtain financing itself.
"The downgrade of Catalonia is motivated by the growing tensions between the region and the central government, and the potential negative impact we believe that these tensions may have on the ability to obtain financing Catalonia", explains in his statement S & P. The agency warning of a weak credit profile of the community, the deterioration of its liquidity and the high dependence on state support to cover its debt maturities.
S & P warns, in particular, the consequences of which could carry the Catalan Government's claim to change the regional financing system, articulated last July about the fiscal compact. A requirement that "increases the uncertainties" and "can damage the necessary coordination between the regional and central administration for the smooth implementation of the financial assistance from the Government and can weaken the will of the Government to support under certain scenarios."


You can see that region rich nothing. In the past it was for the privileges that gave the Bourbons and after General Franco. Think that Catalonia had to herself the whole Spanish market and in all that time and with that advantage has not created a distinctly Catalan industry and strong, has simply put their land to multinationals were coming, nothing more.


Now is angry because times have changed and will not fit a igualitara Spain, want to continue to have privileges and sorry, that's better for them to go, many Spanish would agree to leave, as the Catalan mentality is outdated and archaic and believe in discrimination and the mentality of the rest of Spain is more advanced and is more universal and wants equality and growth for Spain as a whole.


It's a problem of not adapting to changing times.

Are you a racist?...if a people in todays world want to leave a nation because they voted democratically, let them leave. Stop thinking in a feudal way.
Spain already has a racist way on enforcing castiliano ( spanish language) on everyone.

The recent papers on Columbus states he was from Barcelona and moved his family to Genoa, he could not even speak genoese, but resorted to franco-provenzal to get by. The lie of his race was because the castilian cortes under Isabella refused to allow basques, Galicians and Catalans to captain ships to discover the new world.
The castilians where so racist they they prefered genoese bankers and merchants to govern their money than allow catalan cortes and merchants who already had experience.

Carlos
05-11-12, 23:22
Monica Pont actress and T.V. Catalan said this:

Pont Interviú naked 'independence Catalans are selfish and parochial'



Albert Boadella Catalan theater director has said this:
Albert Boadella: "Catalonia is a society that has become paranoid"


The whole society is Catalan independence. The threads of the independence move it a few handlers to the Catalan population, as has happened in other moments of history in Europe without going any further. And we all know that a people can be heated and easily manipulated.

Knovas
05-11-12, 23:38
And finally, the end credits: CONSPIRATION :D

You can take it easy and accept what the vast majority in Catalonia wants, or keep repeating baseless claims like an angry parrot. It's up to you, facts won't change: the Catalans WILL decide. Deal with it, accept it, and don't waste your time.

Carlos
05-11-12, 23:55
And finally, the end credits: CONSPIRATION :D

You can take it easy and accept what the vast majority in Catalonia wants, or keep repeating baseless claims like an angry parrot. It's up to you, facts won't change: the Catalans WILL decide. Deal with it, accept it, and don't waste your time.

I'm not angry, we laughed a lot with the things they say the separatists. And by the way why are you so interested in not known reality


catalibán regime does not like free speech, right?

Kisses and hugs to my dear fellow Knovas. The rest of Spanish Catalonia worship, I want you with us.

Knovas
06-11-12, 00:26
You mean freedom of expression. You have it in Catalonia: C's with Rivera + Cañas, and PP with Alicia Sanchez Camacho, both repetting the same nonsense everyday. The problem is that they will be the minority on 25-N, they're not fooling anyone with words such as yours. What a pitty xd

We don't have anything against the Spanish people, rather the government and individuals supporting their actions concerning Catalonia. Simply, it's better to become neighbors, because as brothers this is not working, like it or not. Catalonia will decide, take it easy.

Carlos
06-11-12, 00:59
You mean freedom of expression. You have it in Catalonia: C's with Rivera + Cañas, and PP with Alicia Sanchez Camacho, both repetting the same nonsense everyday. The problem is that they will be the minority on 25-N, they're not fooling anyone with words such as yours. What a pitty xd

We don't have anything against the Spanish people, rather the government and individuals supporting their actions concerning Catalonia. Simply, it's better to become neighbors, because as brothers this is not working, like it or not. Catalonia will decide, take it easy.

Jo tinc molta calma, no siguis dolent. La resta d`Espanya estima a Catalunya. Que no et mengin el coco, tens un odi fictici contra la resta d`Espanya. T´estimen molt, fixat feia anys que no vaig escriure en català i ho he fet per tu, pot ser que hagin faltes d`ortografia però pensa que la resta no som tan dolents, no som el llop, cre-ume.

Carlos
06-11-12, 02:24
The 'report Aznar' dismantles the myth of fiscal plundering Catalonia

The differences between regions CCAA


Assuming, outlined in unison, that "the ability to pay and not the residence" is the factor that determines the tax burden borne by taxpayers, set an example to simplify the case: "If a resident has to pay in Catalonia a larger amount in income tax a resident in Aragon and La Rioja with identical incomes, is because the government of their community fee applies higher tax rates to the regional tax, which does not impact on the fiscal balance as perceives that the community fund. as far as the state tax is concerned, the three paid the same. "


A fiscal pact as Artur Mas demanded that Rajoy in his recent release in Moncloa, continues the document goes against "economic and administrative rationality", at the time that "would open a fragmentation process tax compromise very viability of the economic functions of the state and violate the principle of solidarity and equality. "

The Generalitat gives false figures


But undoubtedly the most difficult section of the Generalitat lace is on fiscal balances. According to it, one of the methods used by the regional government containing "technical inconsistencies that produce bias calculation." Moreover, it assumes "unreal arguments" to "impute to a region that does not correspond costs and therefore reduce the other regions, or directly delete the entire expenditure incurred outside the division of regions."


All with the assessment, highlights Fernandez of the Generalitat makes the calculation of fiscal balances "by estimating a deficit or surplus absolutely theoretical or hypothetical." Translated: conclusions "unrealistic and wrong, which is evident when real data are mixed with fictitious estimates".


With this radiograph, put on the table in Barcelona by the authors and also includes solutions, simplifying the system and a review of the elements that govern, for example, Aznar tries to end "the dogma that the Catalan nazionalism seeks to sustain its fragile position ", containing the text of FAES. But also falls squarely in the field, to reject a key reason to "continue along the path of sovereignism".

Carlos
06-11-12, 02:45
Catalonia took 50 percent of the promotion grants for tolls since 2001, five times more than other CCAA


The autonomous region of Catalonia has been getting in the last twelve years, 50 percent of the grants to the Ministry of Development has contributed to offset the reduction of 7 percent in the price of the freeways that took place in 1999. According to data seen by Europa Press, this would be five times more than they receive other CCAA for the same concept.


In addition, the State has paid well, on account of that measure, losses highways regional ownership of Catalonia, whose tolls are up to 80 percent more expensive than state ownership of the CCAA.


The bulk of the contributions of Development has occurred to offset revenue losses that led to the application of Royal Decree-Law 6/99 which was determined by the reduction in toll rates by 7 percent of their value. This Decree established that the loss of revenue would be liquidated by the Central Government.


This decision led to the signing of annual agreements with the Government of Catalonia from 1999 to 2009, which were paid between 2002-2011, but have yet to settle the 2010 and 2011 - in which the general administration of the State has taken the loss of revenue from managed Promotion highways, but also the loss of regional ownership highways, which are not State competition.


Payment of this contribution has been for 534 million euros Catalonia in these ten years, which places this CCAA as the most benefit in relation to the rest, since it takes 50 percent of the 1,098 million the state has paid by said concept.


Moreover there other items that add to the above and which also comes highly favored Catalonia. These items are much smaller, but coupled with the first - the offset of 7 percent - assume that last year, spent Development, as a whole, a total of 134.3 million euros for this purpose, the the CCAA chaired by Artur Mas was 71.1 million euros, ie 53 percent of the total, almost 5 times the amount for other CCAA, as Castilla and Leon, who received 15.4 million or Galicia , with 13.5 million (10 percent of total).


If you add up all the concepts, the compensation of 7 percent and the rest, means that Catalonia has received from 2001 to 2011, a total of 608.16 million euros, of which 399 million were for companies concessionaires and 209 million to the Government.


HIGHWAYS OF THE GOVERNMENT, more expensive


As for price comparison, and despite the repeal of Royal Decree Law 6/99, average toll per kilometer in the state network of Catalonia still set to the average value of the state. That is, state tolls are 0.1180 euros per kilometer and average state tolls in Catalonia is 0.1188 euros per kilometer.


Tolls highest state dealerships are not in that CCAA, but lie in the Villalva-Adanero (0.1945 euros per kilometer), the Lion-Campomanes (0.1539), the R-2 in the section M-40 (0.2117) and Axis Barajas Airport (0.2079).


However, in Catalonia, highways owned by the Government are more expensive than the state, as the price per kilometer is 0.2125 euros. Which means that in Catalonia state tolls are about 80 percent below the average toll of the Catalan regional highways.


The Minister of Development referred to these data on Wednesday in the full Senate, to answer an interpellation of Senator CiU, Montserrat Candini, regarding the repeal of Royal Decree Law 6/99 by which tolls were lowered 7 percent and the revenue loss was compensated by the state.


Ana Pastor said he favored a mixed model that makes no Spanish citizens and asked that when politicians talk about "tell the whole truth, not bits and parcels," referring to the contribution of the State for that concept, subsidies and discounts higher prices of motorways of the Generalitat.

He recalled that the compensation for the reduction of 7 percent has brought 105 million euros a year and that, given the debt they inherited in the Ministry of Development for the mismanagement of Catalonia, was repealed by Royal Decree-Law 6 / 1999, so that Catalonia will not receive the subsidy for motorways of the Government of the Generalitat and state highways.

------------0------------


We must realize how hypocritical they are nazionalistas, receive more than others and complain and also are not able to carry their region, what is the easiest? cover it exalting the population and promising a better world with independence.


Please, if you do not know how to lead an autonomous community and will lead a new nation?

Carlos
06-11-12, 03:17
That complaint Renfe the Catalan government owes 300 million euros

Renfe has complained Monday that the Catalan accumulated a debt estimated at 291 million euros, corresponding to the cost of providing the service in 2011 and 2012, plus the outstanding amounts of 2010 and the so-called Action Plan, which supports additional requests the Government to transfer services and have not been paid.


So the 125 Renfe said disciplinary proceedings opened by the Generalitat of Catalonia, announced Monday by the Department of Planning and Sustainability.


Furthermore, this Monday the Government has denied having any debt with Renfe for providing their services in Catalonia and has assured that the Ministry of Public Works which must pay because the Government refused at the time to assume the cost of competencies that came without economic considerations.


-----------------0--------------------------

This is the reality of Catalonia you not know it? cataliban regime has spent years making propaganda and becoming the victim to the foreign press, and you go and believe, then so are useless and have more face that back

Carlos
06-11-12, 15:08
The Catalan businessman Gerard Bellalta promotes a signature campaign to outlaw CiU, which compares with a "conspiracy"

The businessman and president of Catalunya Desperta Ya!, Gerard Bellalta, today announced the start of a signature campaign across the country to outlaw CiU party, compared to a "conspiracy".


"Catalonia has become a swamp and a dump by CiU. The web of corruption woven around this game is a challenge to the future of our region, "said Bellalta, who attributes the escalating separatist launched by Artur Mas party" need to launch your smokescreen to overshadow the great debate that should exist today in Catalonia regarding the embezzlement of public funds by a few. "


"CiU has bought media, has alienated wills to hit book, has introduced the seeds of division between the Catalans, has been thrown into the arms of the most undesirable and dangerous of Catalan society, negotiating with the Arab dictators Islamic immigration quota is jeopardizing the future of hundreds of Catalan companies and now seeks nothing less than the breakdown of Spain against the Constitution and the feeling of the majority. If these are not reasons for its banning, then we've lost all sense of right and wrong, "said businessman and politician of Vilanova.
Bellalta inopinable believes that "a party that is exceeding all legal limits" and is committing "the stability and peace of the nation" has no choice but to "expulsion from the framework of coexistence that we have come to the Spanish."


Our party complaint for some CiU leaders who have been relegated for opposing "separatist delusions" of Artur Mas and is in favor of the intervention of the Spanish Army in Catalonia for the restoration of constitutional legality. "I assure you that almost all Catalans I know are in favor of armed intervention to address these traitors to Catalonia and the rest of Spain," he stresses.
That of Vilanova is convinced reach the figure of more than one million signatures, which would be submitted to Congress as Popular Legislative Initiative for the banning of CiU to be debated in the House.
A few days ago, Gerard Bellalta starred in the Catalan media to announce the sale of tens of thousands of rolls of toilet paper in the colors of the starry. "No company wanted to adopt the Catalan custom, not for lack of desire, but out of fear of reprisals by the nationalists. In Catalonia is a climate of hate and fear that forces many people to act and make decisions contrary to their principles, "he said.

To realize his initiative, Bellalta reported that "we are in negotiations with some printers Valencian Community" and even includes the acquisition of a printing machine "in the event that no company wants to accept our request." "Like it or not, we want to fill stellate bathrooms in Spain," he added.

Knovas
06-11-12, 16:13
Alicia Sanchez Camacho usually speaks Catalan, and it doesn't change the fact she tries to spread nonsense and convince people. There are even supporters of the Franco's dictatorship who's maternal languaje is Catalan, so it doesn't mean anything.

FAES? Are you kidding? They have no credibility. Catalonia uses the FEW figures given by the goverment to explain the fiscal drenage because, since yerar 2005, they don't want to publish the complete numbers. Again, it's time to wonder why, but I think it's clear as day what's going on.

You, guy, still don't understand what the issue is. The Catalan debt (which is there of course), or the debt in Madrid or other regions, it's absolutely unimportant in terms of economics. The huge problem is the SPANISH DEBT as whole, and if the government does not want to negociate, this belongs exclusively to you, Spaniards. No need to say, Catalonia hasn't contributed to this debt, for more you cry. It's very simple, the vast majority of the corruption belongs to PSOE and PP, not to CiU or other regional political parties. What you're trying to tell us, again, it's nothing but a false picture of the situation, and not recognizing that the problem is the Spanish centralism and the heads controling the two main political forces of Spain. That simple, they're basically the ones who led Spain to the ruin, like it or not. In Catalonia many things could be improved, but without such a huge fiscal pressure it would be much easier to do the job. However, it's clear that the Spanish government dos not want to fix anything concerning this, so the only option is independence. We dealed with this many times in Madrid, and even when the newest Catalan law was a slight improve, the Spanish government is not paying what it's listed in the paper. FACT! so it's time to face the problems and not masking things.

PD: Please, stop spamming.

Carlos
07-11-12, 15:21
Alicia Sanchez Camacho usually speaks Catalan, and it doesn't change the fact she tries to spread nonsense and convince people. There are even supporters of the Franco's dictatorship who's maternal languaje is Catalan, so it doesn't mean anything.

FAES? Are you kidding? They have no credibility. Catalonia uses the FEW figures given by the goverment to explain the fiscal drenage because, since yerar 2005, they don't want to publish the complete numbers. Again, it's time to wonder why, but I think it's clear as day what's going on.

You, guy, still don't understand what the issue is. The Catalan debt (which is there of course), or the debt in Madrid or other regions, it's absolutely unimportant in terms of economics. The huge problem is the SPANISH DEBT as whole, and if the government does not want to negociate, this belongs exclusively to you, Spaniards. No need to say, Catalonia hasn't contributed to this debt, for more you cry. It's very simple, the vast majority of the corruption belongs to PSOE and PP, not to CiU or other regional political parties. What you're trying to tell us, again, it's nothing but a false picture of the situation, and not recognizing that the problem is the Spanish centralism and the heads controling the two main political forces of Spain. That simple, they're basically the ones who led Spain to the ruin, like it or not. In Catalonia many things could be improved, but without such a huge fiscal pressure it would be much easier to do the job. However, it's clear that the Spanish government dos not want to fix anything concerning this, so the only option is independence. We dealed with this many times in Madrid, and even when the newest Catalan law was a slight improve, the Spanish government is not paying what it's listed in the paper. FACT! so it's time to face the problems and not masking things.

PD: Please, stop spamming.

So far you're as Spanish as I do, so it is absurd to speak to me as if you were in another country.


Europe and the world have to know the reality, you do not want all these issues come to light, that's not going to this time, there must be transparency.


Moreover speaks centralism of Madrid, Catalonia never before in its history had so many powers, have even gone overboard applying them so intolerant, because as we know Catalonia has led to a unique thought regime, it is the "regime cataliban"


Make it clear that the separatists are only part of the Catalan population, the majority of the population is not independence.


Catalonia is ruined by the mismanagement of Catalan politicians, became independent only if officials could pay for 7 months.


The Catalans are higher, they are rich, they are smarter than the rest of Spanish, but some sectors have fallen in pranoia.


PD:knovas
Please, stop spamming.

Spam?


I'm answering your questions and answers, someone who does not answer spam or argued, I do what I do, so it is not spam. Probably would not call it spam if pro-independence publish news.


Cataliban regime does not like free speech, does not want to know the truth?


A la escola t´han ensenyat a menysprear a la resta d´Espanya? l`odi no es camí per a ningú, no pots seguir odian al teu país, i per favor aquest odi es molt estrany. Crec que es diu: endofobia, això no es sá.


La resta d`Espanya ens estimen a Catalunya i als catalans perque son molt bona gent con cualquevol ciudatà de cualsevol poble i no entenem aquest odi i rancor, es infundat i irreal, no cap dubte es fictici i potenciat per els politics egoistes.

Knovas
07-11-12, 16:17
Posting in the way you do about Catalonia is Spam, let's leave this point clear because your obsession is getting even worse.

The vast majority of Catalonia is not in favor of independence according to you. Well then, you'll have a great deception on 25-N XD. Do you know how many people claimed in favor of independence on September 11? Have you ever tried to compare with October 12, when some people showed they wanted to remain in Spain? Again, you're not fooling anyone but yourself.

Spain, like it or not, it's made up of different nations. The problem is some of you, guys, are so incredibly intolerant and close minded, that makes impossible for you to accept such an evidence like this. Go and tell the Scottish they are not Scottish because they are part of the UK, they will laugh out loud all day.

I'm done with you, if there's people following this discussion, I'm sure most of them would think it's better to go on separately. No common points, no understanding, and no place for Catalonia inside the Spanish framework. I'm afraid it's too late, and some of you, Spaniards (specially politicians), are going the wrong way if you really want to solve something. Goodbye, and have fun with your agenda against Catalonia and its will to become independent. Not a joke at all, keep this in mind ;)

Carlos
07-11-12, 17:47
Posting in the way you do about Catalonia is Spam, let's leave this point clear because your obsession is getting even worse.

Son noticies veridiques, no les he inventat jo. Els nacionalistes porten molts anys fen publicitat en forus extrangers, cada independentista va ser con un mitsager de les mentides nazionalistes independentistes, aquesta va ser una gran obsesió, ara no esteu acostumats i no voleu que el mon sapiguesi totes les mentides y veritats que heu amagat.

The vast majority of Catalonia is not in favor of independence according to you. Well then, you'll have a great deception on 25-N XD. Do you know how many people claimed in favor of independence on September 11? Have you ever tried to compare with October 12, when some people showed they wanted to remain in Spain? Again, you're not fooling anyone but yourself.

A veurre, el onze de setembre el nazionalisme va ecalfar al seu electorat, més gent n´hi habia a les seves cases. ¿Saps que Hitler també va a anestesiar a la seva població, son técniques que ja es coneixen a Europa i sabem qui les posava en marxa. No es més que aprofitar el sentiment que cadascú té per la seva provincia o regió, tot aixó es lamentable fer-ho en aquests temps, la població està sent utilitzada per el régim cataliban.



Spain, like it or not, it's made up of different nations. The problem is some of you, guys, are so incredibly intolerant and close minded, that makes impossible for you to accept such an evidence like this. Go and tell the Scottish they are not Scottish because they are part of the UK, they will laugh out loud all day.

No podeu comparar Escosia amb Catalunya, Escosia va ser un estat, Catalunya mai ho va ser, ¿tan complicat es aceptar la veritat? Qui t´ha promés un món mijor? no sempre que es produeix un cambi es per a millor, també pot ser a pitjor.

I'm done with you, if there's people following this discussion, I'm sure most of them would think it's better to go on separately. No common points, no understanding, and no place for Catalonia inside the Spanish framework. I'm afraid it's too late, and some of you, Spaniards (specially politicians), are going the wrong way if you really want to solve something. Goodbye, and have fun with your agenda against Catalonia and its will to become independent. Not a joke at all, keep this in mind ;)

No confungui ir contra el regim cataliban con ir contra Catalunya es molt diferent, i vosté sap i està d´acord amb mi que tota Catalunya no es independentiste. El independentisme.

Els temps han camviat, per qué no volen adaptar-se als nous temps, volen seguir sen privilegiats, esteu acostumats a aixó, es lamentable i no crec que ningú d´Europa cregui que vostés van amb la veritat, esteu venen sentiment pero darrera per als polítics separatistes unicament està els diners, l´egoisme i aquesta forma de pensar es antiquada, no es europea, pensen que fora de Espanya tot serà per a vostés, que podren enganyar als europeus però jo crec que no. Es una bojeria i una paranoia, la societat separatista està malalta i a les noves generacions com a vosté pel que veix se les ha rentat el cervell.

PD: Perdoneu per les faltes d`ortografia però feia mès de vint anys que no practicava la escritura en català, com a protesta al regimen cataliban.

Adeu i Bona Tarda, pot odiar-me però jo sempre l`estimaré.

Knovas
07-11-12, 18:13
You have a private message, I think it's better to cut this nonsense here. People knows perfectly what's going on and how the Spanish goverment and some people acts.

Carlos
07-11-12, 23:44
You have a private message, I think it's better to cut this nonsense here. People knows perfectly what's going on and how the Spanish goverment and some people acts.


People know perfectly corruption, ineffectiveness and uselessness of the Catalan autonomous government. And everyone knows that independence separatist politicians used to threaten the Spanish state and even are able to mobilize their electorate and get a million people to the streets, but as I said, most people stayed in their houses, do not forget that Catalonia has a approx 8000.000 million,

It is quite possible that allegedly Artur Mas is something mentally unbalanced. Last week he traveled to Moscow, no one received were about 8 deputies with Artur Mas and each took their wives, each room cost € 1.600 per night. In Moscow nobody received them, were a fool, yes, there were a good holiday at the expense of the Catalan people.


Now Brussels is being ridiculous, has said that if once independizada Catalonia can not stay in the EU then rethink the fact separate from Spain.


If it were really consistent with his ideas would spread to Spain or stay in the European Union, but because he does not like to work, you want comfort, you pay once Spain and outside Spain that Europe will pay, not wanting running out of the two.


Artur Mas now Brussels is betraying his entire electorate independence. If you go to Spain, Europe runs out and it runs out the two, does not dare! needs to be subsidized, have someone strong behind him and keep paying, Is that the Catalan nation? a small handful of ambitious and selfish provincial politicians ?

Selwyn Greenfrith
08-11-12, 00:19
Anyone know where Northern Catalonia/French Catalonia fits in to all this? - seen red and yellow stripes all over the shop in the so-called Pyrénées-Orientales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyr%C3%A9n%C3%A9es-Orientales) even though French overlorddom dare not speak of its rightful name: Catalonia...

Carlos
08-11-12, 00:36
Anyone know where Northern Catalonia/French Catalonia fits in to all this? - seen red and yellow stripes all over the shop in the so-called Pyrénées-Orientales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyr%C3%A9n%C3%A9es-Orientales) even though French overlorddom dare not speak of its rightful name: Catalonia...


It's easy, fits in France, is French territory, everybody knows.


Poor victims!!!


http://www.fundacionunam.org.mx/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/la-risa-estudio1.jpg

Knovas
08-11-12, 00:53
It's a Catalan speaking territory which belongs to France. Quite people living there consider themselves Catalan, despite the fact some individuals can't stand with this as you can see. If you saw many flags with red stripes, it's not (of course) due to their French feeling, it's because they are Catalans in France.

Carlos, you're repeating the same lies as some press did. 1600 Euros? I see you still don't know this is false, come on. Read the article I posted concerning the EU, because it seems you're still living in wonderland with your sick agenda. The Spanish government would be the first interested in having Catalonia inside the EU, the only thing they pretend is to scare the Catalan population, that's all. Catalans laugh at this since a very long time, sorry for you, but it's exactly like this. And by the way, It's been largely proven that you're obsessed with this, so take it easy.

Carlos
08-11-12, 01:25
It's a Catalan speaking territory which belongs to France. Quite people living there consider themselves Catalan, despite the fact some individuals can't stand with this as you can see. If you saw many flags with red stripes, it's not (of course) due to their French feeling, it's because they are Catalans in France.

Carlos, you're repeating the same lies as some press did. 1600 Euros? I see you still don't know this is false, come on. Read the article I posted concerning the EU, because it seems you're still living in wonderland with your sick agenda. The Spanish government would be the first interested in having Catalonia inside the EU, the only thing they pretend is to scare the Catalan population, that's all. Catalans laugh at this since a very long time, sorry for you, but it's exactly like this. And by the way, It's been largely proven that you're obsessed with this, so take it easy.


Lately Catalans little laugh, have looked worried and afraid because Caligula, sorry! Artur Mas is doing the head.

Lots crisis, as happens to travel to Russia Artur Mas, has not received nor God, no one was there, I got stood up, it was anyone important.


8 men with Artur Mas and bring their wives, hahahaha, staying in suites.


Many face!

It could make even a joke.

I know that Scotland has turned its back ? Scotland wants no part of Catalan independence

Carlos
08-11-12, 03:51
Artur Mas moved to Brussels yesterday to defend the creation of statehood for Catalonia, in a conference organized by the think-tank Friends of Europe '. The appearance of the president of the Generalitat not noticed too many MEPs, quite the opposite: only Ramon Tremosa were present and all other letters spread Catalan parliament against Spain, Izaskun Bilbao, the PNV, and any other representative of the European Parliament . In addition, the European Parliament's website, which includes all events held in Brussels this week (from the interview Schul Merkel to chat with Internet users with Martin Callanan MEP), also made no reference to the visit of more to the Belgian capital.


The slam Angela Merkel to Artur Mas. The President of the Government attempted to close a meeting with the Chancellor in Berlin to 'sell' their independence project: received a 'no' for an answer

Angela Merkel refused to receive Artur Mas in Berlin. The Generalitat of Catalonia contacted Chancellor's cabinet to close a meeting between the two leaders, but got a 'NO' for an answer. The aim of the Catalan president was 'sell' their independence project.


Please fellow Europeans, not think that this is common in Spain, the Spanish love our country and want to work for the good of Spain, Europe and the world, we are serious and hard working labor, know that in Europe very well.


I would exculpate the Catalonia nazionalista for doing ridicule throughout Europe and in the world, must be having a hard time and do not accept the economic crisis, many years, decades and even centuries to have protection of different totalitarian regimes that passed through Spain that at this time of freedom and democracy where they have to share and they are made to be equal uphill and seek comfort given the privilege, and seek it in Europe, they do not understand that this crisis is global, and want to leave the house father to go live with the neighbor because he believes it is a very rich dad and give many toys and not have to go to school and be all day at Disneyland, and go around through the world doing ridiculous now money being spent in Brussels in 1600 suites € the night, can not go to a hostel of 20 € per night, he to spend the taxpayers' money, so that voters see that you are moving for the independence of Catalonia, provincial butt.

It's a mentality, that you have no idea what it is, oh, one thing! get very well put out to conquer you, pretend and act, but I assure you that everything is a cobblers, cheap surrealism.

Carlos
08-11-12, 11:15
Declare 'zero' the appointment of the sister of Felip Puig as an attorney of the Legal Department of the Generalitat

Although only spent four months as a lawyer of the Regional Administration, the competition requirements were adapted to the abilities of Núria Olivella. The judge is very clear in the judgment: the place offered to a person 'without the ability to take the job offered'.

The Court of Administrative Litigation of Barcelona number 7 said 'no' to appoint the sister of Felip Puig as an official of the Legal Department of the Generalitat. Although Busquets Olivella Núria no longer occupies the place of official attorney group A-27, the judge has ruled that the place offered to a person 'without the ability to take the job offered'.


The court noted that the bidding process has been 'a breach of the fundamental right under Article 23 of the Constitution', but does not accept the appellant's demand to be paid compensation and access to the official Square insolvent.


The case dates back to January 2012 when the Legal Office takes to contest a parking attorney in group A. Surprisingly, the requirements for access to this square are only a civil servant, having a law degree and demonstrate the level C in Catalan. Usually, in these contests requirements are at least part of the civil Senior Corps.


However, the requirements were adapted perfectly to the sister of Minister of Interior, Felip Puig (CiU), and wife of Oriol Puig (CiU), regional director of the Meteorological Service of Catalonia. This has been demonstrated, as reflected in the judgment to which access has been BARCELONA'S VOICE.


Equality, merit, ability ...


Both the appellant and the prosecution accused the Government of 'abuse of power'. Although the Regional Administration claimed that the procedure was urgent, so the appointment would be justified, the judge has assessed that the square did not need the emergency procedure for cover.


The judgment is reflected, too, that the "Generalitat", as the appellant claimed, 'has violated their right to equal access, merit, ability and public office functions', not only violating Article 23 of the Constitution but also the 103 conditions which are enforceable in any tender process.


On May 16, 2012 Olivella stepped down as attorney at the Legal Office autonomous. No one knows the real reason that the sister of Felip Puig ceased to hold the office in question, but the Generalitat has alleged that on that date he rejoined an official on leave voluntarily. Reason, on the other hand, which has prevented the appellant to occupy the place they chose.


CCOO was appointed to the regional Anti-Fraud Office


Thus, the head of the Court of Administrative Litigation of Barcelona number 7 said 'no appointment made to Mrs. Olivella' to not conform. The sister of the Minister of Interior, senior official of the group D, must have not ever take a place in the regional Legal Office reporting directly to the President of the Generalitat.


Olivella's appointment created in the Legal Department of the Generalitat considerable unrest and complaints of "several employees" CCOO channeled in a complaint to the Anti-Fraud Office of Catalonia Autonomous last April. Since the union, the appearance of the sister of the Minister of Interior in the legal department was assessed as a clear influence peddling.

Knovas
08-11-12, 16:54
As you (rest of forumers) can see, according to some individuals (part of the Spanish population) no one is paying attention to Catalonia and what's happening here it's close to evil in its purest form. And with such a supposedly terrible scenario, the same individuals are worried all the time, even when they say Catalonia has no possibilities. Very funny, ¿isn't it? XD

Keep spamming against the process in Catalonia, although it's useless: on day 25, you'll realise (or maybe not LOL) that the spread of nonsense and ridiculous is nothing but a waste of time. Moreover, it helps in having more people in favor of Catalonia's independence, so it's rather the opposite.

They have the clues, but they still don't notice the trend when they act. Meanwhile, we're following our own way :)

Carlos
08-11-12, 23:14
Knovas;400530]

As you (rest of forumers) can see, according to some individuals (part of the Spanish population) no one is paying attention to Catalonia and what's happening here it's close to evil in its purest form. And with such a supposedly terrible scenario, the same individuals are worried all the time, even when they say Catalonia has no possibilities. Very funny, ¿isn't it? XD

It is fashionable in Europe ignore Artur Mas. Is fun!

Keep spamming against the process in Catalonia, although it's useless: on day 25, you'll realise (or maybe not LOL) that the spread of nonsense and ridiculous is nothing but a waste of time. Moreover, it helps in having more people in favor of Catalonia's independence, so it's rather the opposite.

Process?? the only process that is going to be the law.Although we know that if they saw a tank appear along Paseo de Gracia (BCN) separatists have an orgasm. Do not worry, you will not need.

They have the clues, but they still don't notice the trend when they act. Meanwhile, we're following our own way :)

Incidentally, mmmmmmm, who have offered support and logistics for the separation monetary are petrodollars? Cristina Fernández and his clique ....? I do not think Europe really likes when I find out who is in the shadow to support the poor devil of Artur Mas.

These things do not like in Europe, you, the independence will not be fooling lifelong Spain, Europe and the world, everything comes to an end, and the lies have very short legs.

Knovas
08-11-12, 23:41
If all are lies, no one supports Catalonia, and will finally come to an end according to you, then...¿why are you so concerned about this? ¿Don't you have laws and tanks? Incredibly funny xd

I'll give you the answer: you don't believe a word of what you say, and the obsession increases day after day. In short, it's what some people call FEAR.

Sorry, but 25-N it's close. Enjoy the time. Tic, tac, tic, tac, tic, tac...... :D

Carlos
09-11-12, 02:20
If all are lies, no one supports Catalonia, and will finally come to an end according to you, then...¿why are you so concerned about this? ¿Don't you have laws and tanks? Incredibly funny xd

I'll give you the answer: you don't believe a word of what you say, and the obsession increases day after day. In short, it's what some people call FEAR.

Sorry, but 25-N it's close. Enjoy the time. Tic, tac, tic, tac, tic, tac...... :D


Fear?


Simply threats from nazionalistas not found it.


What about the 25N? aliens arrive, come back to Jesus Christ, in film premiered Independence Day???


Will you vote Cristina Fernandez, Chavez and Evo Morales in Catalan regional elections or is it a country with petrodollars?


Note that would be frowned upon in Europe that a small Spanish region should walk in darkness funding relationships that put at risk the unity of a partner country, in addition to non-EU countries and dubious intentions towards Europe, a region well not be trusted for the EU and it would be like if we had gotten a Trojan horse in Europe, because after the debts must be paid.


Is that allegedly disturbed the tranquility of Artur Mas even pretend remain independent even if the EU?


For you must know that all this assembly independence days are numbered.


They are playing a very dangerous game and dirty and in Europe we will not take the bait Cataliban regime.

zanipolo
09-11-12, 06:57
here is an interesting article




http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3441/europe-secessions


@ Carlos
I do not understand how you can be so undemocratic....you are basically on the verge of being a racist

Carlos
09-11-12, 11:45
here is an interesting article




http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3441/europe-secessions


@ Carlos
I do not understand how you can be so undemocratic....you are basically on the verge of being a racist

I trust and I do not think that is behind Artur Mas USA would not think so but it would be a way to destabilize the euro, the issue is that there is someone in the shadows and Europeans must immediately guess what the support in the shadow of the poor devil of Artur Mas.

Carlos
09-11-12, 16:05
A few minutes of music, so that you might rest and continue, you must be exhausted.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaDFF24KfJs

Knovas
09-11-12, 16:24
Good article Zanipolo. Pro-independence in Catalonia is basically due to self identity and economic reasons, the later just increased what was there since a very long time. Again, it points that leaving Catalonia out of the EU it's not likely to happen and, as I posted above, that's good news for Spain (¿who do you think would be isolated if Catalonia is not part of the EU?). Clear as day.

25-N, it's going to be the day when the world will see there's a clear majority in favour of independence now that Artur Mas decided to support the demonstration, which took place on September 11. That's the first step, but not the last. Sure ;)

Carlos
10-11-12, 02:46
here is an interesting article




http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3441/europe-secessions


@ Carlos
I do not understand how you can be so undemocratic....you are basically on the verge of being a racist

How dare you?



This article is full of inaccuracies, and not captures the situation.

It is an indignity daring to say that the 17 regions only 14 can be considered totally Spanish, and is unworthy of an undocumented own daring to say something.

The regions have their own regional language also have Spanish as an official language, the language that is common to all Spanish and so mistreated by the government cataliban lately. So very protegias regional languages ​​by regional governments at the official level, but that the street can not enforce or control and the Spanish language is used completely as in any other region of Spain.

Is Galician is a dialect of Portuguese? Almost all understand Spanish Galician to perfection because the talk more today is called "castrapo" I see the tv Galician and understand everything they say.

This article is written by a donkey.

The income per capita, as a unit of measure of social welfare and quality of life of the inhabitants of a country, has lost its credibility.


Catalonia is not Spain's richest region, the richest region of Spain is Madrid, when are going to find in the U.S.?


Catalonia is fully depleted.


The public debt of the Community of Madrid in 2010 was two and half times lower than in Catalonia. If at first amounted to 6.6% of regional GDP in the second comfortably exceeds 15%. In Madrid the debt / GDP ratio remains more or less stable since 2002 (around 6%) while in Catalonia has doubled in the same period of time. Madrid's debt is therefore inherited from the years of Government Ruiz Gallardón, the Catalan is the work of the tripartite political spenders Catalan, which opened a few months ago the custom of issuing debt to individuals with a very profitable bonds.




The deficit of both communities, ie the difference between what they earn and spend, is instructive. Madrid is virtually at a standstill with a deficit of 0.6%. Catalonia, meanwhile, continues to spend more than it takes in, almost 4% more. It is understood that difference, more sooner or later, will have to cubrírsela the state with taxpayer money in Spain, including Catalonia.

Catalonia and must spend a lot of money because the weight of the public sector is very high, double that of its counterpart in Madrid.

Much nephew, cousin, brother and neighbor plugged in public

Catalonia boasts the highest level of debt to GDP at 22%, while in the Madrid region is less than half, namely 9.1%, at the end of the second quarter of this year.


As expected, public debt has increased significantly in all regions of Spain, although in the case of Catalonia growth is particularly worrying since the third quarter of 2007. At that time was 7.7%, so that has increased almost three in just five years. In Spain's capital came down to 5.2% in September 2008, before rising steadily since that time but at a slower pace.

Knovas
10-11-12, 16:32
And now the guy starts twisting things having as result more lies LOL

Debt and GDP are totally different things. GDP of Madrid is 189.432€, while Catalonia's is 200.323€ (figures: million Euros). So the richest region IS Catalonia, but suffers from a huge fiscal pressure and lack of inversion regarding infrastructures, what basically downgrades "richness". Madrid has fiscal pressure because it's rich compared to other regions, but the inversions in the territory go according to its level, which is not the case in Catalonia. In short, it's the Spanish government what makes Catalonia "poorer" than Madrid. That simple, you're not fooling anyone little guy.

Concerning other questions, it's true that Galician is not a dialect of Portuguese, but there's nothing like "Spanish Galician". Galician is Galician, let's stop with the nonsense because your obsession is greater than ever. And yes, even more than 14 regions, are not originally Castillian/Spanish speakers, for more you cry: Asturies (Bable), Aragón (Fabla Aragonesa), Catalonia (Catalan), Valencia (Catalan), Baleares (Catalan), Euskadi (Euskera), and Galicia (Galician). It's true that Bable and Fabla Aragonesa are very minoritary but, until Castilla arrived, those were the original languages as happened in other parts. There are also Euskera speakers in Navarre and Aragón as well, and a few Catalan speakers in Eastern Aragón, so as you can see the picture is really complex.

By the way, I also understand Italian and Portuguese, and it doesn't change the fact both languages are clearly different from Castillian, Catalan, and English, the three main languages I know. All your "arguments" have been thrown to the trash, and Zanipolo is right not trusting your baseless claims, since it's pretty obvious some of you, Spanish, are afraid of no longer having Catalonia inside of Spain. That's why you spread lies and nonsense, you hope people will trust you, but the fact is no one outside Spain does.

Meanwhile, 25-N it's closer day after day...the Spanish government's nightmare (and yours) XD

Carlos
11-11-12, 01:19
To my spanish friend Knovas.

It must be horrible to live life in a lie and manipulated by the nazionalsimo dreams cataliban. I would never fall into the hands of a leader is of the past, always promising paradise, then anything goes, everything is a lie. Knovas have much to learn and not wish for you a life of bitterness, dreaming nonsense and in a state of chronic endophobia is very unfortunate to live well, open your eyes and wake up! the nazionalismo you are using for your vote and take captive the new Catalan aristocracy, a few freeloaders continue to do so at your expense.Wake up already! the rest of Spanish love you, if you get trapped in the Everest Spain will help you, will not Germany or France or anyone else, will your country.


Now let me clarify some concepts, that foreigners, say North Americans, Europeans do not even understand just about Spain.

1. When spoken in Spain rich regions and poor regions is not comparable to when talking about the rich northern Europe and southern Europe poor.

2. Catalonia, the Basque Country and Madrid owes its "wealth" to the rest of Spain, mainly from its origins to the present. In the late 18 if I remember correctly León and Andalusia were the most industrialized regions of Spain respectively. Thereafter and political issues these regions are impoverished and relegated to strictly agricultural, with money from Andalusia and Extremadura harvests three partners: Madrid, Catalonia and the Basque Country held its industrialization. Franco follows the line of the Bourbons and privileges given to the Basque Country and Catalonia, Madrid as capital also takes the cake. The remaining regions are neglected. All multinationals coming to settle in Madrid Spain, Basque Country and Catalonia, the market the rest of Spain is given to these three regions, means that if someone wanted to buy in Andalusia eg insecticide or other product could not buy it to Germany or France or any other country, had to buy it by force in Catalonia, although the product more expensive and of lower quality than the product German or French, of course in those days the product Catalan was of poorer quality and more expensive.

3. In Andalusia in 1975 the number of people trained in trades and professional studies: carpenters, plumbers, surveyors, electricians, mechanics etc. was the same as the number of people with the same preparation in Catalonia, what was the plan? : The plan was that all these people had just prepared in Andalusia emigrating to Catalonia, Spain since plans were developed Andalusia, which was relegated to strictly agricultural.

4. Socialism

With the end of the dictatorship and democracy comes with this socialism achieves power in Spain. Socialism achieved in just 20 years to put in all Spanish equality. And so in areas neglected by the Franco dictatorship reached the same social levels in the three regions favored by the Franco: Catalonia, the Basque Country and Catalonia.


Universal education, health, low birth rate, infrastructure, communications, life index increase, GDP growth (that good, not independent of happiness)
The advantage is that the southern regions do not repeat the mistakes of Madrid, Catalonia and the Basque Country where the industry is developed in earlier times as pollution of suburbs that are now creating examples of how foreign universities should not be built.


Today South regions have invested in renewable energy and due to increased global awareness development is sustainable and environmentally friendly contemplative.


Industry also exists in all regions of Spain, not only made ​​the Catalans, multinationals now fleeing Catalonia. In the rest of Spain citizens exercise great self boycotts of products made in Catalonia due to abuse and disrespect shown Catalan politicians to the rest of Spain, considering the rest of Spanish to Catalan society is being manipulated and has fallen into the paranoia fostered by the regime cataliban.

Today it is quite true that socialism is on the decline in the public like all politicians due to corruption.

In all Spanish regions speak the common language is Spanish. Equality between Spanish is the future and what we believe all the well-born Spanish. The feeling is like that of any other country, for example USA a citizen of a state of the U.S. This is just a citizen of the West. So not to get manipulated by present events where some independence in Catalonia is Catalan spokesman all, because all Catalans are not separatists, here is a lot of politics, a lot of lies, threats and much much prefabricated.

The terms: Regions rich and poor regions must refer to (P.I.B.) GDP, but unemployment, evictions, trash salaries, the whole crisis there now suffer equally in the misnamed rich regions in the misnamed poor regions .


The working classes have enriched never even Catalonia when Franco was favored by the Bourbons or suffered shortages and hardships suffered the working classes, it is comparable to the level northern Spain and southern Europe that compare north-south Europe, here we could talk rich and poor, if not domestic Spanish.


Hope you have as a realistic view of Spain.

The independents are out there making the rich and comparing with the great European nations, blah, blah, blah, but nothing at all, Catalonia owes the rest of Spain that their employers have been enriched in some times and may have been something more than industrial work in other areas, but the Catalan workers compared to workers in any other region of Spain is not like comparing the German worker with the worker in southern Europe and some countries in Eastern Europe.


I hope you have been clear, and have taken a more firedigna what is Spain.
-------------------------------------------------


The "Generalitat" recognizes fiscal deficits much larger than that of Catalonia


A recent report by the Directorate General of Economic Affairs of the Government on fiscal balances admits a state in Mexico and four U.S. fiscal deficits are higher than in Catalonia, dismantling, thus the myth that it is a situation unparalleled in the developed world.

http://www.vozbcn.com/2012/11/06/133539/generalidad-reconoce-deficits-mayores/#.UJ7YHh8LowA.facebook

zanipolo
11-11-12, 06:09
To my spanish friend Knovas.

It must be horrible to live life in a lie and manipulated by the nazionalsimo dreams cataliban. I would never fall into the hands of a leader is of the past, always promising paradise, then anything goes, everything is a lie. Knovas have much to learn and not wish for you a life of bitterness, dreaming nonsense and in a state of chronic endophobia is very unfortunate to live well, open your eyes and wake up! the nazionalismo you are using for your vote and take captive the new Catalan aristocracy, a few freeloaders continue to do so at your expense.Wake up already! the rest of Spanish love you, if you get trapped in the Everest Spain will help you, will not Germany or France or anyone else, will your country.


Now let me clarify some concepts, that foreigners, say North Americans, Europeans do not even understand just about Spain.

1. When spoken in Spain rich regions and poor regions is not comparable to when talking about the rich northern Europe and southern Europe poor.

2. Catalonia, the Basque Country and Madrid owes its "wealth" to the rest of Spain, mainly from its origins to the present. In the late 18 if I remember correctly León and Andalusia were the most industrialized regions of Spain respectively. Thereafter and political issues these regions are impoverished and relegated to strictly agricultural, with money from Andalusia and Extremadura harvests three partners: Madrid, Catalonia and the Basque Country held its industrialization. Franco follows the line of the Bourbons and privileges given to the Basque Country and Catalonia, Madrid as capital also takes the cake. The remaining regions are neglected. All multinationals coming to settle in Madrid Spain, Basque Country and Catalonia, the market the rest of Spain is given to these three regions, means that if someone wanted to buy in Andalusia eg insecticide or other product could not buy it to Germany or France or any other country, had to buy it by force in Catalonia, although the product more expensive and of lower quality than the product German or French, of course in those days the product Catalan was of poorer quality and more expensive.

3. In Andalusia in 1975 the number of people trained in trades and professional studies: carpenters, plumbers, surveyors, electricians, mechanics etc. was the same as the number of people with the same preparation in Catalonia, what was the plan? : The plan was that all these people had just prepared in Andalusia emigrating to Catalonia, Spain since plans were developed Andalusia, which was relegated to strictly agricultural.

4. Socialism

With the end of the dictatorship and democracy comes with this socialism achieves power in Spain. Socialism achieved in just 20 years to put in all Spanish equality. And so in areas neglected by the Franco dictatorship reached the same social levels in the three regions favored by the Franco: Catalonia, the Basque Country and Catalonia.


Universal education, health, low birth rate, infrastructure, communications, life index increase, GDP growth (that good, not independent of happiness)
The advantage is that the southern regions do not repeat the mistakes of Madrid, Catalonia and the Basque Country where the industry is developed in earlier times as pollution of suburbs that are now creating examples of how foreign universities should not be built.


Today South regions have invested in renewable energy and due to increased global awareness development is sustainable and environmentally friendly contemplative.


Industry also exists in all regions of Spain, not only made ​​the Catalans, multinationals now fleeing Catalonia. In the rest of Spain citizens exercise great self boycotts of products made in Catalonia due to abuse and disrespect shown Catalan politicians to the rest of Spain, considering the rest of Spanish to Catalan society is being manipulated and has fallen into the paranoia fostered by the regime cataliban.

Today it is quite true that socialism is on the decline in the public like all politicians due to corruption.

In all Spanish regions speak the common language is Spanish. Equality between Spanish is the future and what we believe all the well-born Spanish. The feeling is like that of any other country, for example USA a citizen of a state of the U.S. This is just a citizen of the West. So not to get manipulated by present events where some independence in Catalonia is Catalan spokesman all, because all Catalans are not separatists, here is a lot of politics, a lot of lies, threats and much much prefabricated.

The terms: Regions rich and poor regions must refer to (P.I.B.) GDP, but unemployment, evictions, trash salaries, the whole crisis there now suffer equally in the misnamed rich regions in the misnamed poor regions .


The working classes have enriched never even Catalonia when Franco was favored by the Bourbons or suffered shortages and hardships suffered the working classes, it is comparable to the level northern Spain and southern Europe that compare north-south Europe, here we could talk rich and poor, if not domestic Spanish.


Hope you have as a realistic view of Spain.

The independents are out there making the rich and comparing with the great European nations, blah, blah, blah, but nothing at all, Catalonia owes the rest of Spain that their employers have been enriched in some times and may have been something more than industrial work in other areas, but the Catalan workers compared to workers in any other region of Spain is not like comparing the German worker with the worker in southern Europe and some countries in Eastern Europe.


I hope you have been clear, and have taken a more firedigna what is Spain.
-------------------------------------------------


The "Generalitat" recognizes fiscal deficits much larger than that of Catalonia


A recent report by the Directorate General of Economic Affairs of the Government on fiscal balances admits a state in Mexico and four U.S. fiscal deficits are higher than in Catalonia, dismantling, thus the myth that it is a situation unparalleled in the developed world.

http://www.vozbcn.com/2012/11/06/133539/generalidad-reconoce-deficits-mayores/#.UJ7YHh8LowA.facebook

You do realise its cheaper for castilain Spain if you let catalonia leave...the EU does not have to give you so much money and the burden for castilains is less!

Looks like the first economists when the EU was created are CORRECT..the EU will only succed if its regional based and not national based

zanipolo
11-11-12, 06:10
whats this rubbish about a moderator all about?

Carlos
11-11-12, 16:20
whats this rubbish about a moderator all about?


What are you talking about?


Since democracy is what you are!!!

Knovas
11-11-12, 16:42
whats this rubbish about a moderator all about?

He basically spent 10 paragraphs more or less to tell us nothing. Well, now it seems other regions have higher fiscal pressure than Catalonia, and for this reason the Catalan situation is not that bad inside the Spanish framework. Twisting things, as usual.

Carlos
11-11-12, 17:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83lnl6hOmUw

Kardu
11-11-12, 18:52
Carlos, Galician maybe or maybe not a dialect of Portuguese, but the fact is that with my knowledge of Spanish I perfectly understand Portuguese and can make myself understood to a Portuguese person.
Does it make Portuguese a dialect of Spanish or vice versa?

The scientific fact is that modern romance languages stem from Latin and are linguistically very closely related even after 2000 years. The rest is geopolitical games played by various groups...

Carlos
11-11-12, 19:33
Carlos, Galician maybe or maybe not a dialect of Portuguese, but the fact is that with my knowledge of Spanish I perfectly understand Portuguese and can make myself understood to a Portuguese person.
Does it make Portuguese a dialect of Spanish or vice versa?

The scientific fact is that modern romance languages stem from Latin and are linguistically very closely related even after 2000 years. The rest is geopolitical games played by various groups...

Yes, as politicians try to steer people away from reality and create vested interests to manipulate and get, but in the end the only ones who benefit are the politicians take and those behind them, the people will never be rich.

Carlos
11-11-12, 21:04
http://www.periodistadigital.com/imagenes/2012/11/09/moises_560x280.jpg

Artur Mas election poster for the regional elections 25N


I fear that my suspicions about the alleged mental imbalance Artur Mas daily stop being suspicious to become certainty.


What a shame! embarrassment!!!

Carlos
12-11-12, 02:25
As of 2010, Catalonia was deficit in the balance between the given and received into the coffers of Social Security. According to data disaggregated by province, in 2010 the total contribution of Catalonia was 18,422,000, while its pension cost over 420 million, 18,842. Last year the gap even more. In 2011, the last year ended, Catalonia contributed to Social Security 18,373,000, and received 19,541. Only the province of Gerona posted a surplus.


In the ruin and diverting attention from the mismanagement of the Catalan regional government with the issue of independence. Please if you are not able to lead a region how they will be able to take an independent country.

Carlos
12-11-12, 04:51
Javier Barraycoa is a professor of Barcelona that has black on white nationalism contradictions present in a book that dismantles the myths espoused by the political Catalan historical level.

Javier Barraycoa: "Catalan nationalists designed has nothing to do with the traditional language"
His book reveals 200 stories of nationalism, including its complicity with fascism

I argued with some Catalan nationalists on the origins, when the nationalists realized that I knew more history than them, they said: 'do not be fooled, Catalan nationalism has nothing to do with history, is simply a decision of wanting be what you want to be '.

Nationalism does not represent all the people, comes from a middle class for the intentions of the Government of Madrid to agree with England and the whole group of textile entrepreneurs created as a 'lobby' nationalism to defend their interests.

One of the most interesting work Barraycoa is the reference to the linkages of nationalist parties with the fascists. This includes the fact that Mussolini Bentio fund to Francesc Macia in his bizarre plan to invade Catalonia in the late '20s.


In the first third of the twentieth century nationalism fascist temptation arises. (...) Appears Estat Catala, led by one Dencas, known as 'the Catalan Duce' he had great connections with Italy. (...) They mimic uniforms. (...) Jose Antonio Aguirre-known leader of the PNV-also looked compromise with National Socialism. They have much in common, both drink of racism, making them closer to fascism.

Barraycoa also remembered as one of the top poets in Catalonia, Verdaguer, is removed from teaching for not agreeing with the nationalist vision. Even more amazed to discover the origin of the Zarzuela Catalan or Lluís Companys had fought in the lerrouxismo (considered anti-Catalan) and dissolved sardanas with sticks.


What role culture plays in Catalan nationalism?


Is essential. In the book I explain. Some Catalan realized-even Prat de la Riba-says that the tongue is a political weapon but were aware that neither Catalan nor did he would lose a lot of effort in publishing in Catalan. However, over time, in the creation of the myth, language and culture have taken hold. It's very powerful because language is the bridge between the Catalan and Catalan racist ideological current. I mean, for 30 years defended the powerful racist, we have a special head bone (Dr. Robert), but there is a time when this speech fails, after World War II as racist discourse sinks throughout Europe. And argue that, since they are not race, to be defined by the language. This is what it preaches Jordi Pujol: if we get people talking in Catalan Catalan do. It is not to save the language to save her but becomes a political tool even mental transformation.

Bravo, bravo, bravo, very well Javier Barraycoa!!!


Are you getting this?


Yes, sure, sure ... we have evidence of that. For example, the policy of the Government for years to encourage immigration of North African and Latin America is not because they hope they can Catalanise easier for a no than a Castilian Castilian. The logic of the use of language as a mental transformation continues.


The book notes that the specialty of nationalism is creating the problem, then give the solution. Do what you practice CiU in Congress? Is nationalism thread from the beginning?


Several analysts Yes nationalism of the early twentieth century and discovered that this tactic. The first lie was to convince the Catalan Castilian that hated us, and so we would hate the Castilians. Was to create the dialectic of hatred. But was very conscious Cambó explains in his memoirs that this was a way to get a number of benefits for Catalonia, and in fact did not believe it much. The Lliga, Catalan is not called because no one liked, brings together many businessmen and bourgeois textile and becomes a political instrument of pressure, but it is believed the Catalan. As much a small group of young people gathered in the Centre School Catalanista, that create the ideology of nationalism, albeit with the money of the bourgeoisie.




http://www.vozbcn.com/2011/12/24/97259/barraycoa-nacionalismo-odio-espana/

Knovas
12-11-12, 16:17
You're spamming lies and you don't even hide your intentions. And you talk about mental issues? Maybe it's time to visit the psychiatrist.

Posting nonsense from the most anti-Catalan press. Fantastic, you're doing a really good job to increase independence in Catalonia. The argument of pensions it's incredibly funny, since if we can pay it now with a huge fiscal deficit, we'll do it for sure having all our money. We're talking about more than 16.000 million Euros, so it's safe to say it. Note that the international media is not wondering what would happen to Catalonia when having independence, they wonder what would happen to Spain. That's something Gallardón recognized in some way in one of his last speeches, pointing that Spain would no longer be able to preserve the Euro (exactly like this, yes little guy). Think about it, because you're missing the target, and it's rather a shot in your own face (you only contribute to increase independence as I said). Well then, thank you xD

It's sad some of you, Spanish, are so incredibly fanatic to trust this kind of informations, and go to the point of comparing the Catalans with Nazis simply bacuse you don't agree. The whole world noticed this attitude, that's why you already lost the international "battle", since all you do is to spread baseless claims. On the other hand, there's people in Madrid who recently wrote a letter supporting a referendum in Catalonia: most of them university professors and serious people, who are (fortunately) far from insanity. However, their voice it's still silent compared to the other nonsense, but that's at least something.

zanipolo
12-11-12, 19:16
Javier Barraycoa is a professor of Barcelona that has black on white nationalism contradictions present in a book that dismantles the myths espoused by the political Catalan historical level.

Javier Barraycoa: "Catalan nationalists designed has nothing to do with the traditional language"
His book reveals 200 stories of nationalism, including its complicity with fascism

I argued with some Catalan nationalists on the origins, when the nationalists realized that I knew more history than them, they said: 'do not be fooled, Catalan nationalism has nothing to do with history, is simply a decision of wanting be what you want to be '.

Nationalism does not represent all the people, comes from a middle class for the intentions of the Government of Madrid to agree with England and the whole group of textile entrepreneurs created as a 'lobby' nationalism to defend their interests.

One of the most interesting work Barraycoa is the reference to the linkages of nationalist parties with the fascists. This includes the fact that Mussolini Bentio fund to Francesc Macia in his bizarre plan to invade Catalonia in the late '20s.


In the first third of the twentieth century nationalism fascist temptation arises. (...) Appears Estat Catala, led by one Dencas, known as 'the Catalan Duce' he had great connections with Italy. (...) They mimic uniforms. (...) Jose Antonio Aguirre-known leader of the PNV-also looked compromise with National Socialism. They have much in common, both drink of racism, making them closer to fascism.

Barraycoa also remembered as one of the top poets in Catalonia, Verdaguer, is removed from teaching for not agreeing with the nationalist vision. Even more amazed to discover the origin of the Zarzuela Catalan or Lluís Companys had fought in the lerrouxismo (considered anti-Catalan) and dissolved sardanas with sticks.


What role culture plays in Catalan nationalism?


Is essential. In the book I explain. Some Catalan realized-even Prat de la Riba-says that the tongue is a political weapon but were aware that neither Catalan nor did he would lose a lot of effort in publishing in Catalan. However, over time, in the creation of the myth, language and culture have taken hold. It's very powerful because language is the bridge between the Catalan and Catalan racist ideological current. I mean, for 30 years defended the powerful racist, we have a special head bone (Dr. Robert), but there is a time when this speech fails, after World War II as racist discourse sinks throughout Europe. And argue that, since they are not race, to be defined by the language. This is what it preaches Jordi Pujol: if we get people talking in Catalan Catalan do. It is not to save the language to save her but becomes a political tool even mental transformation.

Bravo, bravo, bravo, very well Javier Barraycoa!!!


Are you getting this?


Yes, sure, sure ... we have evidence of that. For example, the policy of the Government for years to encourage immigration of North African and Latin America is not because they hope they can Catalanise easier for a no than a Castilian Castilian. The logic of the use of language as a mental transformation continues.


The book notes that the specialty of nationalism is creating the problem, then give the solution. Do what you practice CiU in Congress? Is nationalism thread from the beginning?


Several analysts Yes nationalism of the early twentieth century and discovered that this tactic. The first lie was to convince the Catalan Castilian that hated us, and so we would hate the Castilians. Was to create the dialectic of hatred. But was very conscious Cambó explains in his memoirs that this was a way to get a number of benefits for Catalonia, and in fact did not believe it much. The Lliga, Catalan is not called because no one liked, brings together many businessmen and bourgeois textile and becomes a political instrument of pressure, but it is believed the Catalan. As much a small group of young people gathered in the Centre School Catalanista, that create the ideology of nationalism, albeit with the money of the bourgeoisie.




http://www.vozbcn.com/2011/12/24/97259/barraycoa-nacionalismo-odio-espana/

Please explain your paranoia with holding people against their will, this is the 21st century if you did not know?........
.are you still living in the time when the castilans subjugated people?.......Next you will want argentina, colombia etc back under Spain

zanipolo
12-11-12, 19:17
every time I write to Carlos , I get a message that a moderator has to check it................what is this all about?

Carlos
12-11-12, 19:37
every time I write to Carlos , I get a message that a moderator has to check it................what is this all about?

Must be computer system, each thread x messages regardless of the message sent passes a controversial, even after the message disappears forever.


So you do not have anything to do with writing to Carlos.

Carlos
12-11-12, 20:10
You're spamming lies and you don't even hide your intentions. And you talk about mental issues? Maybe it's time to visit the psychiatrist.


Why always wants fascism mouths shut?
You do not like that international public opinion have a thorough Catalan nationalism? Logical separatists have for decades giving a distorted version, have won many adherents becoming victims and then right and left saying: we are better, we are better, we are more Europeans are best we are as we are rich, we're rich, wordiness , but when it comes to show, have not proved anything, always scheming, dreaming and comparing with the great European nations, it is pathetic and pitiful his world of lies, distortions and paranoia.


I have revealed much information hidden by nationalists to international public opinion because I've noticed that only knew the vision of independence, and manipulated and distorted, I hope that with all this information take out a better conclusion of the Spanish reality.

Posting nonsense from the most anti-Catalan press. Fantastic, you're doing a really good job to increase independence in Catalonia. The argument of pensions it's incredibly funny, since if we can pay it now with a huge fiscal deficit, we'll do it for sure having all our money. We're talking about more than 16.000 million Euros, so it's safe to say it. Note that the international media is not wondering what would happen to Catalonia when having independence, they wonder what would happen to Spain. That's something Gallardón recognized in some way in one of his last speeches, pointing that Spain would no longer be able to preserve the Euro (exactly like this, yes little guy). Think about it, because you're missing the target, and it's rather a shot in your own face (you only contribute to increase independence as I said). Well then, thank you xD

Freedom of expression. I do not like the monopoly of information, nor does it give biased information. International public opinion already knows your altered vision of things, and I'm here to inform and provide information that hides the Catalan independence movement. Quiet that Catalonia is not going to wean from Spain.

It's sad some of you, Spanish, are so incredibly fanatic to trust this kind of informations, and go to the point of comparing the Catalans with Nazis simply bacuse you don't agree. The whole world noticed this attitude, that's why you already lost the international "battle", since all you do is to spread baseless claims. On the other hand, there's people in Madrid who recently wrote a letter supporting a referendum in Catalonia: most of them university professors and serious people, who are (fortunately) far from insanity. However, their voice it's still silent compared to the other nonsense, but that's at least something.

I have given the information that each draw their conclusions. If the world once beat them, we'll beat them, Spain will not suffer that on its soil creating a regime of this kind.





"The nationalists trying to convince non-independence of heart that would be a helluva business - independence - and although not just sit Catalans will live better and richer," lamented De la Fuente, indicating that the citizens of Catalonia thirty years are subject to a permanent political marketing campaign.

"We have to dismantle the idea of fiscal plundering not suffer in any region", said Professor of Public Finance at the University of Santiago Álvarez García Oviedo.

The use of "myths" by the political class is populism not democratic

Knovas
12-11-12, 20:52
I like people giving different points of view, even when they really haven't an opinion and are simply against something, posting every information they see without contrasting if it's true or not. There you are some examples of the errors you have commited:


- Madrid is richer than Catalonia: it's rather Spain what makes Madrid richer as I pointed above, since the numbers concerning GDP are clear as day.

- Artur Mas spent 1600 Euros in the Hotel.

- Coca-Cola leaves Catalonia.

- Spanish-Galician LOL.

- There's not a majority in favour of independence (good one, you obviously don't know much about the Catalan reality).

- Twistting things about wolsvagen: hey, they inverted money in railways and they're still waiting for the Mediterranean axis (which Spain avoids to accomplish), but you must be out of reality ignoring such an information.

- The last one: now you try to say there's no fiscal pressure in Catalonia when everybody knows that, even Alicia Sánchez Camacho admitted 2 weeks ago in TV1 some things should be revised. Professors telling such a stupidity can be counted with the fingers of one hand (all Spanish), while we find many telling the contrary, not to mention the interntional media.

And so on... :D


If you ask me, I prefer you keep going on with the embarassing nonsense, definetely much better for us. It's just annoying due to the continuous spam, that's all.

Kardu
12-11-12, 21:46
It's just annoying due to the continuous spam, that's all. And the google translate lines are killing me on top of that..

Carlos
12-11-12, 21:53
Times have changed and the other regions will not allow that Catalonia has privileges, there is no reason for it, nor is the mentality of the times.


Furthermore Catalonia as an independent country within the EU would be horrible, all day would be asking for money, ask, ask, ask, oh, my God, all foreigners who now support the Catalan independence wish I had not, go crazy to EU Member


We know how it operates throughout Catalonia History. Centuries of privileges have become comfortable, but centuries of privilege have not been for nothing, ember embraces your most heated, and now want to do it as a full member in the EU but owl often they would play, is to think about it ...


Gimme, gimme, gimme, I want, I want, I want, all day crying for tit. You have to work not so much ask and ask,

Carlos
12-11-12, 22:02
And the google translate lines are killing me on top of that..

Subtle but a low blow and a call for my head cut off.


Do not underestimate me dear, I am comforted that at least now you know another version and information about the kind of people that are the Catalan independence and I think that combines well with the EU what happens is that hardly anyone knows, there is nothing more to read the foreign press, as the BBC seems to be wanting the destruction of Spain, but that's not going to get.

Knovas
12-11-12, 22:06
The EU is fed up with Spain. Fed up with its total lack of responsibility administering economy, fed up with its banks, fed up with its pressures concerning Catalonia's independence, and fed up with its insistence on creating the Central axis when they said the Mediterranean axis was (and still is) prioritary.

FACT! It's time some individuals realise what's going on.

Carlos
13-11-12, 00:34
The EU is fed up with Spain. Fed up with its total lack of responsibility administering economy, fed up with its banks, fed up with its pressures concerning Catalonia's independence, and fed up with its insistence on creating the Central axis when they said the Mediterranean axis was (and still is) prioritary.

FACT! It's time some individuals realise what's going on.


Prioritary, prioritary, prioritary!!! why prioritary?

Look little man, this is what you want to hide your head and lie of independence used to hide all its corruption.

A decade of corruption in Catalonia. The roles of the "Palau case" reflect that C.I.U. was 2.5% of the awards millions

Spain steals. Spain steals. Spain steals, world help us! ... but if the thief is it, are they.

EFE
Artur Mas corruption that wants to cover the electoral campaign

The coroner estimated at over 8 million money still missing, according to reports from the Tax Agency (AEAT). Tracking accounts in Switzerland and other tax havens continues, because existing evidence on accounts in those countries. In one of Palau's records were found in the documents listed, and in 2001, a Swiss bank account with a million dollars.

So are your idols!!!

Disappointed?

It has to be a masochist to believe in the Catalan independence, that or have brainwashed.

Good small, you no longer have a monopoly on information, is that you do not like it rigth?

http://www.abc.es/20121112/espana/abcp-artur-borra-campana-seis-20121112.html

Knovas
13-11-12, 01:14
You're so nervous guy, time to have an herbal infusion :D

Prioritary because it connects the main maritime ports along the Mediterranean, including parts of France, while de nonsensical proposal of Spain, the Central axis to France, required a huge investment and wasn't as useful according to the estimations made by the EU. There you are, from you're lovely Spanish press: http://elpais.com/elpais/2011/10/19/actualidad/1319012227_850215.html

It's not what I say, it's what it is: prioritary because the EU said this, that simple. Spain is ridiculing itself with its insistence in something which has been largely declared useless, like it or not.

By the way, the other link concerns Felix Millet, not concretely CiU since it's necessary to investigate more. Anyways, I told you but it seems you don't want to remember: the biggest corruption which generated the incredibly high debt of Spain belongs to PP and PSOE, not to regional parties (insignificant). Again, that's FACT, so take it easy because you're mising the target everytime you strike with new comments, basically shooting no one but yourself. Take a rest, I'm afraid you need it ;)

Carlos
13-11-12, 02:05
I'm very quiet thanks, but I see you are wanting quick passing pages containing much information about the truth of Catalan independence.


Now there are other interests, not about providing more infrastructure Catalonia, is a priority to AVE in Galicia, which is opposed to the Catalan independence

Greetings to Moses

Knovas
13-11-12, 16:08
What you said it's another bullet in your own head LOL

You should know that the AVE as whole isn't profitable. And the AVE from Madrid to Galicia, estimated to have 3 or 4 passengers a day, it's one of the many absurdities driven by the Spanish governments. ¿Weren't you the one who said in Catalonia we have "privileges"? And now you admit, in front all forumers, that for Spain is more important a ruinous AVE than the enhancing of the Mediterranean axis, declared prioritary by the EU as pointed above. ¿How do both things match? XD

Time to clarify something: the only thing you have proven, is that you're a totally biased anti-Catalan spamer who posts nothing but rubbish.

SYSTEM FAILURE :41:

Carlos
13-11-12, 17:21
What you said it's another bullet in your own head LOL

You should know that the AVE as whole isn't profitable. And the AVE from Madrid to Galicia, estimated to have 3 or 4 passengers a day, it's one of the many absurdities driven by the Spanish governments. ¿Weren't you the one who said in Catalonia we have "privileges"? And now you admit, in front all forumers, that for Spain is more important a ruinous AVE than the enhancing of the Mediterranean axis, declared prioritary by the EU as pointed above. ¿How do both things match? XD

Time to clarify something: the only thing you have proven, is that you're a totally biased anti-Catalan spamer who posts nothing but rubbish.SYSTEM FAILURE :41:


The TGV is necessary to Galicia, another forgotten region, and it is unfortunate that the Catalan nationalists oppose AVE in Galicia.


Is that what you would do in the EU Catalan independence want everything for them?


I'm not anti-Catalan, we must distinguish between good and Catalan separatists, are very different things.

You have to understand that if you think of Artur Mas make a secessionist referendum will be reported to the constitutional court, which of course will say NO and that act of treason could be considered a coup, Artur Mas so you can put the things very difficult in the future.

Good afternoon, and please stop playing the victim, and no one believes something.

By the way you are Catalan origin or simply you were born in Catalonia?

Knovas
13-11-12, 18:05
¿Forgotten? Together with Extremadura, Galicia is the region receiving more money from the rest of the territory. Don't waste your time with more lies and telling what you are, since it's perfectly clear. On the other hand, there are many ways to do a referendum, even normal elections can be used as such if finally the Spanish government does not allow it. ¿Do you know that Kosovars in their parliament declared independence and the International Court said it was valid? Keep crying xd

By the way, you've not only proven that you're a biased anti-Catalan spamer, it's also already demonstrated what others pointed about you: you're racist. ¿Why do you care about my ancestry now? In Catalonia we don't care if people have ancestors from other parts of the Peninsula, doesn't matter if the Basque Country or Extremadura. We just want to preserve our culture, language, and traditions, and we want to improve our future, that's at least what the vast majority claims, assuming this cannot be done inside the Spanish framework. That simple, so stop twisting things, and if you want to know about my ancestry, search for this in the proper thread, because the issue is another.

You have no authority to insinuate if I am Catalan or not. I am Catalan because I want to, nobody can't change this, no need to say, a person like you. Spain is made up of different nations and this basically refers to cultural realities, like it or not. FACT! It's time to go ;)

Carlos
13-11-12, 23:24
We must help Galicia and Extremadura, are regions that were forgotten and the Spanish want the best for these regions, did not understand what I'm talking about, right? a character is logical independence is a being who has been alienated from their own country by their masters, do not know what is the love of country, known only hatred and resentment, lies, manipulation and misrepresentation of data and information.

Regional distribution in Catalonia receives four times more than Madrid
Madrid system only receives funding for 17% of what it collects, compared with 60% of Catalonia. And Madrid is the most money brings.

The people of Madrid are a well-born Spanish.


Of course I care if you're Catalan origin or simply born in Catalonia.

It's a good thing to know as nazionalismo realize is able to manipulate the minds of children from school and society by providing media like TV Catalan regional power in the service of regional independence. Do not forget that subsidizes CIU Catalan newspapers as the vanguard, with the press purchased manipulate your mind, not mine.


He says I'm racist? Prove it? If it is simply a bait that I accuse separatists of Nazis, I'm not going to bite, you know what we think about the rest of Spanish, internet and other media burning and similarities with the little man with the mustache is more than obvious but not an ideology born of them copied and central Europe as lapdogs have followed in his delirium compared to large nations are capable even of ridicule, the article by Javier professor at Barcelona University explained very well, the Catalan nazionalistas copied anything if they think they will be profitable, do not realize they do ridicule, which are nothing more than a poor unhappy which made ​​them much attention.


Now it's over in the rest of Spain and no one believes in them as traitors and if they dare to make a coup in Spain will end up in jail.

Now it's over in the rest of Spain and no one believes in them as traitors and if they dare to make a coup in Spain will end up in jail.


You have to free yourself from the clutches of the regime cataliban, they raised me but never managed to capture my soul or my mind, you have to find a way to escape, your mind is now in their power, trying to help you all I can, but you're too polluted if you need help ask me, watch over you, you do not belong I feel it, escapes his control, I'll be waiting, come and join the resistance, together recover freedom for Catalonia.


Now have your mind, do not surrender your soul or you will be lost.

Knovas
14-11-12, 00:20
Galicia and Extremadura are poor regions, not "forgotten" as you say, and if they don't want to have problems they need to collect money from the other regions. That simple, so the only thing they can say is: thank you.

None of what you say is true guy, I guess that's due to the blindness derived from your agenda. Madrid is in a much better situation than Catalonia basically for 3 points:

- The government fulfills what it's listed in their law: not the case in Catalonia, still has to come the time when they pay what it's listed in the Catalan law.

- Infrastructures: Madrid always had the best investment, no question here. You can search for the last budget, and you'll find the execution in Catalonia was 35%, while in Madrid 111%. Yes, I listed the numbers correctly (100% + 11%), that's the Spanish government's style.

- The statal companies have its headquarters ALL in Madrid, doesn't matter where the activity is developed: AENA for example, and many others. One consequence of this, is Catalonia has no control concerning the airports and the maritime ports, among others, not to mention lost job oportunities (placed outside Catalonia and the rest of communities). Problems which Madrid obviously doesn't have, rather the opposite, since this are added benefits.

Clear as day little guy, Spain is what makes Madrid richer. Again, you're not fooling no one but yourself. And I see you didn't read what I posted, since I explained fairly well why there's no point mentioning the origins of the Catalans. If you worry about this, the answer comes by its own: racism.

You should be the last one denouncing manipulations, when that's exactly what you've been doing all the time with your annoying spam. And you go on again and again, commiting errors, embarassing yourself, and making people think the best Catalans could do is to seek independence as soon as possible. Yeah, that's what I call good job XD

Carlos
14-11-12, 02:30
Let's see, that foreigners get confused. When we say in the Spanish: rich regions and poor regions that no one believes that it is: Catalonia = Germany Galicia = Ethiopia, that is not so. The terms "rich" and "poor" are exaggerated and not to be taken literally, are concepts, I think they should choose other terms as these terms lead to confusion, and some think they are better than and others who are given an undeserved award does not reflect reality, and above all creates confusion, the nazionalistas clear advantage to be publicized abroad.

First point explained, I hope you make it clear to the foreigner.

I see you finally acknowledge that Madrid is better than Barcelona, oops, I mean Catalonia.


The difference between Madrid and Catalonia is basically that Madrid recognizes that owes its growth to the rest of Spain to these misnamed "poor regions" with their crops and other substantial resources millions admitted they would stop banks investing in Madrid where the diner in themselves and their two partners, the Basque Country and Catalonia, the latter two do not want to admit it and they do not accept the new era of equality, curiously when they try to go it alone in the EU which is a future space for sharing and equal to Europeans.

Zapatero estrena la nueva terminal del Prat, su mayor apuesta en Cataluña (http://www.elconfidencial.com/cache/2009/06/16/espana_6_zapatero_estrena_nueva_terminal_mayor_apu esta_cataluna.html)
Zapatero's new terminal opens Prat, his biggest gamble in Catalonia

What happened to Spanair? To direct an airport must keep our feet on the ground and have nazionalistas head in the clouds.

Nationalists distort and manipulate history and even invent from there who can ensure that they will tell the truth in any other subject, his strategy is simply a lie to create a reality that consistency and create your future but with those pillars so flimsy its banality dreams crumble like a deck of cards when the state issues a soft blow on them.

He knows that people love to adopt children, whether they be from other cultures and other languages ​​better, they produce a huge satisfaction to see how that creature absorbs their ideas, their language, their culture, that gives them pleasure giving immeasurable meaning to their differentiation prefab project. Think of where Catalan separatists have copied his ideas and how they have had to adapt to new times to not betray too much and you're just a trial of them, if things were different and could be in a different order, you'd end up succumbing, like are destroyed elements used in the tests.


Who wants to be a test specimen? I certainly do not.

Carlos
14-11-12, 05:35
Two councilors ERC suffer a fit of common sense and speak out against independence

http://www.alertadigital.com/2011/12/27 ... pendencia/

zanipolo
14-11-12, 11:22
@ carlos

Where is your democracy...do you have any??

let the people vote.....if they vote to leave , then let them leave..........you are starting to behave like a feudal warlord

Carlos
14-11-12, 12:52
@ carlos

Where is your democracy...do you have any??

let the people vote.....if they vote to leave , then let them leave..........you are starting to behave like a feudal warlord

I remind you that Hitler also won by democracy.


Democracy does not mean that the people have to be continually voting for parliamentarians we chose.


Catalonia in 78 voted overwhelmingly YES to the Constitution and the Spanish Constitution says that Spain is indivisible and any referendum on the issue would be national, whole bone in Spain, but still not going to do any referendum and if it tries to be taken as a blow
the Spanish state.


The best democracy is to apply the law on pure and independence, and are causing too much and playing a very dangerous game.

You from Australia does not see things clearly, I do not know at what time is left to eat the head by the separatists, consider pretending they know well and use the right tone to convince Europeans or Australians if necessary, but really are selfish, cowardly, manipulative, selfish and victimhood will get many followers around the world and with 30 years of victimhood.


You think that all are home Catalan independence? if so, you are sadly mistaken.

Are you Australian or Uruguay?

Knovas
14-11-12, 16:10
Let's see guy:

- In the European context, no one equates the word "poor" to Ethiopia. People is enough intelligent to know what this means.

- I never said Madrid was "better". What I really said is they have better conditions than us, and if you take some time reading the points again, maybe you'll realise that. I certainly don't expect it, but surely other forumers already got the message.

- Comparing the siuation of Catalonia and the Basque Country is nonsense (another one). The Basque Country raises all its money, nothing to do with Catalonia then.

- Concerning the airport, read above please, the statal companies are the ones who decide everything. If Prat's Airport could work better, then go and tell them why they eliminate international direct flights to Barcelona, day after day, to make them land in Madrid.

- Oh, Nazism: that's what you say when you don't have arguments. Keep trying, we're having fun with you.

- Oh, The Constitution: ¿Have you any idea about how many people living today didn't vote for the constitution? I see you don't, not surprising at all, since there are millions and millions of people. ¿Would you like to see what people would vote now in Catalonia? Take before some anxiety pills. By the way, this constitution was voted under fear due to Franco's supporters remaining in substantial number, and the Spanish army demanded the inclusion of some points. Yeah, a very democratic scenario.

- Reality is the vast majority in Catalonia (not ALL, stop fooling) wants independence. That's how things work, having this it's enough to seek independence, like it or not.

- Alerta Digital? are you kidding? jaaaaaaaaaajaja


My god, this is insane: offering masterful classes on democracy and Nazism this little spamer. ¿What else?

:D

Carlos
14-11-12, 18:41
It has to explain everything, the separatists have long been doing marketing abroad on their ideology, of course lying to the rest of Spanish we do not need because we do not create or invent problems to justify identity impossible dreams, the problem I have nazionalistas for that reason have moved to foreign public opinion biased information, manipulated and invented, is the only way they can create a non-existent reality.

Have you seen the movie Airplane? because they say it again and airports would be in the hands of nazionalistas to direct an airport must keep our feet on the ground and their heads nazionalistas in the clouds, I repeat, do not want more dead plane crashes, and Spanair had already held nazionalistas example. At nazionalistas are good at lying, distorting history, even invent, eat his head to foreigners and compared to great nations of Europe, not run airports.

The constitution can be changed, but not in the basics and Catalans voted overwhelmingly YES on 78.


Any Spanish would change aspects of the constitution to improve the country, a nazionalista only wants to change the constitution for their own benefit, paving the way for secession. As you can understand we are not going to consent. Addition should respect the Catalans who voted Yes in 78


They are setting an example lamentable attacking his own country.

For now I will not comment anything on the Basque issue is a topic that bores me.


------------0---------------

The Language Academy in E.E.U.U. make an award for promoting the Spanish language.


La Academia Nortamericana de la Lengua Española (ANLE) anunció la creación del premio Enrique Anderson Imbert, con el que galardonar la trayectoria de quienes contribuyan a la difusión y conocimiento del español en Estados Unidos.

Nortamericana Academy of the Spanish Language (ANLE) announced the creation of Enrique Anderson Imbert Prize, which reward the path of those who contribute to the dissemination and knowledge of Spanish in the United States.

E.E.U.U. wonderful country, nothing to do with the Spanish region of Catalonia with its independence attacking his own country.

The Spanish language including you have a national and international stop compared to great nations of Europe, including Spain itself you belong, Catalonia is a region of Spain, which has taken advantage of the rest of Spain joining any totalitarian regime shift and has gone as a lapdog copying other dangerous ideologies distant European territories, a great track record of small betrayals, selfishness and spite.


U.S.A. a country of freedoms takes years and years denouncing the situation of xenophobia and discrimination that occurs in Catalonia against the Castilian-speaking, something to which the EU does not dare

Kardu
14-11-12, 18:57
Carlos, what are the base and criteria for a statehood?

Knovas
14-11-12, 19:13
The only one telling lies and insulting the vast majority of Catalans, is you: I'd like to leave clear to the moderators that he is calling the people in favour of independence NAZIS. This happened ten times more or less in this thread, so I think it's time to do something.

We are in year 2012, not 1978. Millions of living people today didn't vote for this (FACT ignored by you again and again, not to mention the process I already explained). Come on, let's vote again. ¿or are you afraid of the result in Catalonia? XD

By the way, the EE.UU. does not support the attitude of Spain towards Catalonia, that's something you'd like to believe. You ignore the fact they got independence from England, so they perfectly understand what happens here, as showed in many newspapers (none of them in favour of Spain).

Spain has regions and nations, like it or not. And those nations can decide about their future, exactly what Catalonia will do for more you cry, insult, and lie about us. Oh, and the only one who bores repeating like a parrot the same nonsense, is you xD

Carlos
14-11-12, 19:29
Carlos, what are the base and criteria for a statehood?

It is a controversial issue and intellectualizing the issue can be molded in a way that could give reason a group of separatists who only move by selfishness.


What you must know is that the Spanish state and still exists today in the world to determine a state uses force if necessary.

Knovas
14-11-12, 19:33
It is a controversial issue and intellectualizing the issue can be molded in a way that could give reason a group of separatists who only move by selfishness.


What you must know is that the Spanish state and still exists today in the world to determine a state uses force if necessary.
Come on already!!!!!!!!! Nice masterful class on democracy :D

A pitty this cannot be done inside the European Union, sorry for you. MEEEEEEEC! XD

zanipolo
14-11-12, 19:37
I remind you that Hitler also won by democracy.


Democracy does not mean that the people have to be continually voting for parliamentarians we chose.


Catalonia in 78 voted overwhelmingly YES to the Constitution and the Spanish Constitution says that Spain is indivisible and any referendum on the issue would be national, whole bone in Spain, but still not going to do any referendum and if it tries to be taken as a blow
the Spanish state.


The best democracy is to apply the law on pure and independence, and are causing too much and playing a very dangerous game.

You from Australia does not see things clearly, I do not know at what time is left to eat the head by the separatists, consider pretending they know well and use the right tone to convince Europeans or Australians if necessary, but really are selfish, cowardly, manipulative, selfish and victimhood will get many followers around the world and with 30 years of victimhood.


You think that all are home Catalan independence? if so, you are sadly mistaken.

Are you Australian or Uruguay?

Hitler never won by democracy, he was a thug, read your history before 1933. Spain is doing the same. I still do not understand why your government treats its people like slaves and servants

Remember.....the people make a nation and not a nation makes the people. People will vote for what they want and not what is dictated to them. People have a right to decide, they vote which equals democracy.
If they vote 51% to leave they should leave...what kind of democracy have you if this is not the case?


In Australia, it's a federation of states.....a federation of states is where if a state votes to become independent, then by the constitution they leave and form a nation without bloodshed. This is how it is with the 21st century, this is democracy.

Anyway, it far better for Catalonia to leave, the rest of Spain will be easier/cheaper to bailout ............Pity the EU will never survive in this nationalistic run organisation, its far better if the EU was regionalised. This is the answer to appease the people.

jjmuneer123
14-11-12, 19:38
Come on already!!!!!!!!! Nice masterful class on democracy :D

A pitty this cannot be done inside the European Union, sorry for you. MEEEEEEEC! XD

I hope it becomes independant

Carlos
14-11-12, 19:38
The only one telling lies and insulting the vast majority of Catalans, is you: I'd like to leave clear to the moderators that he is calling the people in favour of independence NAZIS. This happened ten times more or less in this thread, so I think it's time to do something.

We are in year 2012, not 1978. Millions of living people today didn't vote for this (FACT ignored by you again and again, not to mention the process I already explained). Come on, let's vote again. ¿or are you afraid of the result in Catalonia? XD

By the way, the EE.UU. does not support the attitude of Spain towards Catalonia, that's something you'd like to believe. You ignore the fact they got independence from England, so they perfectly understand what happens here, as showed in many newspapers (none of them in favour of Spain).

Spain has regions and nations, like it or not. And those nations can decide about their future, exactly what Catalonia will do for more you cry, insult, and lie about us. Oh, and the only one who bores repeating like a parrot the same nonsense, is you xD

It's amazing compared even with E.E.U.U. nazionalista madness has no limits.

It is absurd to talk bilaterally Spain-Catalonia, there are not two states, it is a one state and a one region.

If you look forward call to Catalonia nation can, likewise remains a region of Spain.

Carlos
14-11-12, 19:41
I hope it becomes independant

It is the best way to islamizarla after, right? you carry it clear, if they think we will be so foolish.

Knovas
14-11-12, 19:48
Read about the independence of the EE.UU. Do you think England agreed since the begining with the process? Do you think they didn't threat the Americans about the problems they would have? It's basically what Spain is doing little guy. Catalonia is NOT YET a state, but CAN BE. The nightmare of some Spaniards, time to cry xD


I hope it becomes independant

Thanks. That's what you achieved Carlos. Congratulations :D

Carlos
14-11-12, 19:50
Hitler never won by democracy, he was a thug, read your history before 1933. Spain is doing the same. I still do not understand why your government treats its people like slaves and servants

Remember.....the people make a nation and not a nation makes the people. People will vote for what they want and not what is dictated to them. People have a right to decide, they vote which equals democracy.
If they vote 51% to leave they should leave...what kind of democracy have you if this is not the case?


In Australia, it's a federation of states.....a federation of states is where if a state votes to become independent, then by the constitution they leave and form a nation without bloodshed. This is how it is with the 21st century, this is democracy.

Anyway, it far better for Catalonia to leave, the rest of Spain will be easier/cheaper to bailout ............Pity the EU will never survive in this nationalistic run organisation, its far better if the EU was regionalised. This is the answer to appease the people.

Do not say terrible things about Spain. Seeing what type it is clear that you do not know or understand Spanish reality. Regionalize Europe? ok, back to the caves

People make a nation, great, just the opposite is done in Catalonia who wash the brains of children and indoctrinate them in the independence and force them to paint the flag of independence to children 5 years. Really you do not know the regimen cataliban.

Carlos
14-11-12, 19:52
Read about the independence of the EE.UU. Do you think England agreed since the begining with the process? Do you think they didn't threat the Americans about the problems they would have? It's basically what Spain is doing little guy. Catalonia is NOT YET a state, but CAN BE. The nightmare of some Spaniards, time to cry xD

How innocent you are, in 30 years I see a turban.
Thanks. That's what you achieved Carlos. Congratulations :D

How innocent you are, in 30 years I see you a turban.

Kardu
14-11-12, 20:00
It is a controversial issue and intellectualizing the issue can be molded in a way that could give reason a group of separatists who only move by selfishness.


What you must know is that the Spanish state and still exists today in the world to determine a state uses force if necessary.
No country exists since primordial times. Every single of them had a certain beginning.
This is a dynamic historical process, states are born, absorbed, disappear, loose or gain territories. It all depends on will, force, culture and many various factors.
Depending on circumstances and our viewpoints we might view this process as legitimate, illegitimate etc. but it's happening and to deny this means to live in some imaginary world where things occur only in accordance to our wishes.

Carlos
14-11-12, 20:03
No country exists since primordial times. Every single of them had a certain beginning.
This is a dynamic historical process, states are born, absorbed, disappear, loose or gain territories. It all depends on will, force, culture and many various factors.
Depending on circumstances and our viewpoints we might view this process as legitimate, illegitimate etc. but it's happening and to deny this means to live in some imaginary world where things occur only in accordance to our wishes.

This is how the separatists living in an imaginary world.

Knovas
14-11-12, 20:10
¿How do this match your concerns then?

OWNED LOL

Carlos
14-11-12, 20:21
¿How do this match your concerns then?

OWNED LOL

We are not worried, not going to happen.

Knovas
14-11-12, 20:25
Yeah, clear as day. That's why you're spamming all the time XD

Carlos
14-11-12, 20:30
Catalanization of surnames is maintained by an instruction of CiU, 1998

The Beauty Sanchez-Camacho REPORT THIS STANDARD BY WHICH MAY SANCHEZ Sanxis happen to be called, THE Rubios, ROS, or GARCIA, GARRIGA

In his nationalist project of social engineering and by the attempt to change the language habits of people living in Catalonia, CiU has for more than a decade's commitment Catalanise the surnames of its residents are of Catalan origin, another autonomous region or even another country.


We see clearly how work these people.

zanipolo
14-11-12, 20:34
We are not worried, not going to happen.

Spain is part of the EU, the EU states in its laws

The EU is duty-bound to recognise a democratic wish for self-determination. Its part of the EU law.

Its happening in other parts of Europe, like, European Commission President José Manuel Barroso and the EU is seeking permission to hold a monitored referendum after Members of the Veneto regional assembly voted 42-18 to consider independence. A referendum will occur in March/April 2013.

Above is how it is done, Catalonia will approach the EU assembly. If Spain does not recognise this, then they cannot be part of the EU.

Carlos
14-11-12, 20:48
Spain is part of the EU, the EU states in its laws

The EU is duty-bound to recognise a democratic wish for self-determination. Its part of the EU law.

Its happening in other parts of Europe, like, European Commission President José Manuel Barroso and the EU is seeking permission to hold a monitored referendum after Members of the Veneto regional assembly voted 42-18 to consider independence. A referendum will occur in March/April 2013.

Above is how it is done, Catalonia will approach the EU assembly. If Spain does not recognise this, then they cannot be part of the EU.

The European Commission alone opine on the independence of Catalonia Spain asks if

Carlos
14-11-12, 20:52
http://www.entremitosyrealidades.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Infograf%C3%ADa-Catalunya-51.jpg

Knovas
14-11-12, 21:09
The European Commission alone opine on the independence of Catalonia Spain asks if
And Spain avoids asking, time to wonder why XD. If Catalonia gets out of the European Union, which is totally unlikely for the reasons I posted before, Spain would be in serious trouble. Catalans aren't worried for the Spanish threats, sorry for you xd


Catalanization of surnames is maintained by an instruction of CiU, 1998

The Beauty Sanchez-Camacho REPORT THIS STANDARD BY WHICH MAY SANCHEZ Sanxis happen to be called, THE Rubios, ROS, or GARCIA, GARRIGA

In his nationalist project of social engineering and by the attempt to change the language habits of people living in Catalonia, CiU has for more than a decade's commitment Catalanise the surnames of its residents are of Catalan origin, another autonomous region or even another country.


We see clearly how work these people.
Changing name and surname is voluntary, doesn't matter if we refer to Catalonia or Extremadura. ¿Aren't you tired of being humiliated? All you post is a bunch of lies and absurdities.



Yeah, clear as day. That's why you're spamming all the time XD
He continues even when he says he's not worried. ¿Isn't it funny? :D

Carlos
14-11-12, 21:35
Here are the ones that threaten the independence, stop using victimhood and lies in the end everything is known.


About Catalanization of surnames: Because they can not make it mandatory, if they could they would, the important and unfortunate is the reason and the essence of what they do and it shows the total control and manipulation that wants independence politics have on citizens mainly by creating fictitious needs. I do not know, reminds me of something ... wanting that everyone is equal and induce people to those things, I think it is clear what is the origin of this ideology and people.

The names of the anonymous telephone to denounce labeled traders business in Spanish, the prohibition of which have schools in Spanish, are many things, that's all very ugly and indicates the paranoia of these people.

You do not see anywhere that people create countries and peoples, in this case is clearly an ideology, a regime force creating a nation of xenophobia, discrimination, inequality, etc.Very ugly all, something can not end well!

It's fun to eat independence.

Knovas
14-11-12, 22:32
Catalonia as a national reality exists prior to Spain, since the later wasn't taken as a national reference until 1812, obviously linked to Castilla (before, the terms "Hispania" and "las Españas" were refered to the Peninsula as whole, including modern Portugal, and the oversea's lands). You confuse the term nation with state, or I'd better say, you simply don't want to see it because of your fanatism. It's not about creating countries, Catalonia IS a country (check the dictionary), but doesn't have state. FACT! it's time to solve your problems, what you do is really sick.

Knovas
14-11-12, 23:35
About Catalanization of surnames: Because they can not make it mandatory, if they could they would, the important and unfortunate is the reason and the essence of what they do and it shows the total control and manipulation that wants independence politics have on citizens mainly by creating fictitious needs. I do not know, reminds me of something ... wanting that everyone is equal and induce people to those things, I think it is clear what is the origin of this ideology and people.
So, according to you, they would put a gun in the head of people to change their surnames or something like this I guess.

I'm sure all people can imagine the situation, yeah :D

edao
14-11-12, 23:57
Nationalism is dead. Being 'Spanish' isn't working out well is it? The UK is crawling with 'Spaniards' forced into becoming economic refugees. How many will stay and become British not because they want to but because they have to make a living?

Do Catalans want a job or independence? Nationalism and introspection will only result in further economic decline, the EU doesn't need proud tribes all fighting for their out of date culture and traditions.

"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change." Charles Darwin

The change is a united federal Europe not a collection of tribes all clinging to outdated customs and languages. The USA was built on a culture of change and embracing a new identity and future. Europeans need to stop looking over their shoulder to the past. If they don't Spaniards, Portuguese and Greeks can enjoy seeing their children sew shoes together for Chinese teenagers.

Knovas
15-11-12, 00:17
As I posted above, the seek of independence in Catalonia is mainly for two reasons: economics and identity.

By the way, the federal model you mention, it's also what our president, Artur Mass, wants for the future of Europe. But this cannot be done easily, it requires some time, and actually the present states are a huge barrier for this. If you want a federal Europe working properly, smaller states tend to be more efficient, and it helps preserving cultures on the other hand. You obviously can't expect people would renounce to their language, for instance, due to the federal union, that's more or less how the EU works today, so it's the only realistic way.

Europe, the same as big states such as Spain, is not culturally homogeneous. The future lies in the recognition and respect of its plurality.

Carlos
15-11-12, 00:47
Nationalism is dead. Being 'Spanish' isn't working out well is it? The UK is crawling with 'Spaniards' forced into becoming economic refugees. How many will stay and become British not because they want to but because they have to make a living?

Do Catalans want a job or independence? Nationalism and introspection will only result in further economic decline, the EU doesn't need proud tribes all fighting for their out of date culture and traditions.

"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change." Charles Darwin

The change is a united federal Europe not a collection of tribes all clinging to outdated customs and languages. The USA was built on a culture of change and embracing a new identity and future. Europeans need to stop looking over their shoulder to the past. If they don't Spaniards, Portuguese and Greeks can enjoy seeing their children sew shoes together for Chinese teenagers.

Finally someone with common sense. Is the problem the Catalan nazionalismo not want to adapt to changing times.


She wants to believe that the other day at Montjuic Artur Mas was one of his gruesome conferences, and there were two American tourists, for what he believes Artur Mas? tourists came to them and said: I am the president of the country.


http://www.europapress.es/nacional/noticia-mas-turistas-arkansas-im-the-president-of-the-country-20121112172522.html


Please leave the tourists alone, have come to enjoy your holiday, do you also want to brainwash tourists? are paranoid, can be more leg?

zanipolo
15-11-12, 00:50
The EU can only work if its regional in organisation, this national system is far too restrictive and expensive to run.

Nationalism began around 1750 and globalisation was the beginning of its end.

The EU needs to be a confederation of regions.

Cheaper to bail out in a crisis ( and there will be more ), more money per capita ( basically all similarin GDp will be the outcome )

the losers will be the bulk of politicians and the super rich.

zanipolo
15-11-12, 00:53
Nationalism is dead. Being 'Spanish' isn't working out well is it? The UK is crawling with 'Spaniards' forced into becoming economic refugees. How many will stay and become British not because they want to but because they have to make a living?

Do Catalans want a job or independence? Nationalism and introspection will only result in further economic decline, the EU doesn't need proud tribes all fighting for their out of date culture and traditions.

"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change." Charles Darwin

The change is a united federal Europe not a collection of tribes all clinging to outdated customs and languages. The USA was built on a culture of change and embracing a new identity and future. Europeans need to stop looking over their shoulder to the past. If they don't Spaniards, Portuguese and Greeks can enjoy seeing their children sew shoes together for Chinese teenagers.

The USA has nationalism and its bankrupt...nationalism is far too expensive to run.
The USA needs to break apart to survive in the 21st century OR destroy Globalisation ....you cannot have both

Knovas
15-11-12, 00:55
Finally someone with common sense. Is the problem the Catalan nazionalismo not want to adapt to changing times.


She wants to believe that the other day at Montjuic Artur Mas was one of his gruesome conferences, and there were two American tourists, for what he believes Artur Mas? tourists came to them and said: I am the president of the country.


http://www.europapress.es/nacional/noticia-mas-turistas-arkansas-im-the-president-of-the-country-20121112172522.html


Please leave the tourists alone, have come to enjoy your holiday, do you also want to brainwash tourists? are paranoid, can be more leg?
There's no need to manipulate tourists, they are usually well aware of the situation and how Spain behaves towards Catalonia. And Carlos, you don't even know what he wrote, you should know that your comments against Catalonia and its right to decide, are also against any form of federalism. Let adults discuss, and take a rest ;)

Good points Zanipolo, totally agree.

zanipolo
15-11-12, 00:57
The European Commission alone opine on the independence of Catalonia Spain asks if

Speak English please I do not understand what you are trying to say.

The EU is duty-bound to recognise a democratic wish for self-determination.

Above means that the EU recognised all the worlds people for self-determination, which is why in 2006 Italy had to recognise ( In writing ) the Kurds , they never did, before this.

Carlos
15-11-12, 01:00
As I posted above, the seek of independence in Catalonia is mainly for two reasons: economics and identity.

By the way, the federal model you mention, it's also what our president, Artur Mass, wants for the future of Europe. But this cannot be done easily, it requires some time, and actually the present states are a huge barrier for this. If you want a federal Europe working properly, smaller states tend to be more efficient, and it helps preserving cultures on the other hand. You obviously can't expect people would renounce to their language, for instance, due to the federal union, that's more or less how the EU works today, so it's the only realistic way.

Europe, the same as big states such as Spain, is not culturally homogeneous. The future lies in the recognition and respect of its plurality.

Of course Spain is culturally homogeneous, Europe, the world tends to be culturally homogeneous.


The differences from the rest of Spain with the Catalan region which are:


We buried our dead in the same way, we have the same business hours, work and social. Today in Spain there has been general strike, included Catalonia. The list is endless, there are more similarities than differences.


The differences are folklore, folklore and also pure minority who practice each region, and I know nothing about dance or sing flamenco, and you'll probably step on human towers.


It is more that unites us than divides us.


Does the regional language ok? but that does not like to use it indiscriminately against other compatriots.


You know how it all started. When in Europe after the Second World War and was frowned use racist arguments, the sorcerer's apprentices Catalan independence clung to the argument of the regional language.


You have to be original, copying is ridiculous ideologies of centuries ago, not used today even the inventors, what they use to the extent they can separatists?Is ridiculous!

You have to be original, copying is ridiculous ideologies of centuries ago, not used today even the inventors, what they use to the extent they can separatists?Is ridiculous!


Adapt to a united Europe, stop wanting all the attention, never been a great nation, with Spain if you can say yes to Europe, but all I alone have done is to approach the great to see what they could get, the and history has portrayed, not more ridiculous, and you are too damaging the image and economy of Spain, Catalonia included.

I know it's like throwing pearls before swine, but I enjoy both.

Carlos
15-11-12, 01:03
Speak English please I do not understand what you are trying to say.

The EU is duty-bound to recognise a democratic wish for self-determination.

Above means that the EU recognised all the worlds people for self-determination, which is why in 2006 Italy had to recognise ( In writing ) the Kurds , they never did, before this.


The obligation of the U.E. is to end the crisis.

Carlos
15-11-12, 01:09
The EU can only work if its regional in organisation, this national system is far too restrictive and expensive to run.

Nationalism began around 1750 and globalisation was the beginning of its end.

The EU needs to be a confederation of regions.

Cheaper to bail out in a crisis ( and there will be more ), more money per capita ( basically all similarin GDp will be the outcome )

the losers will be the bulk of politicians and the super rich.

Do not tell lies. Before 1700 Catalonia was not independent but was a territory with its own institutions integrated into the Spanish Crown for centuries.


It is time marcharse. Good night.

Knovas
15-11-12, 01:17
Again, you still don't read what people posts. Check what the EU is today, and you'll find the answer by your own (well, I really don't think so xd). There are always common points, but there are differences and regional peculiarities everywhere. You can't be constructive without recognition and respect of the difference, that's clear as day when checking the history of Europe. The united Europe you refer it's only possible considering its regions, like it or not. The trend is to increase the number of states in the world, but it seems you didn't notice yet. Come on, go and check.

Deal with it, it's time to accept it LOL.

Knovas
15-11-12, 01:37
Do not tell lies. Before 1700 Catalonia was not independent but was a territory with its own institutions integrated into the Spanish Crown for centuries.


It is time marcharse. Good night.
What the hell are you saying? at this time there was mainly Castilla and Aragón as some kind of confederation (the same which happened to obtain the so called "Corona de Aragón" as result before), so stop twisting history. Want to know about the origins of Spain? there you are then: http://www.elmundo.es/ladh/numero86/enportada.html

By the way, Zanipolo did not say anything like this. READ properly and THINK before writing.

Carlos
15-11-12, 11:23
Que no sois una nación y nunca lo váis a ser, bueno y menos tú que ni siquiera eres catalán de origen. Se ve claramente lo que son los independentistas y cual es su origen y su ideología .... ¡ya sabes de que hablo!

Knovas will come running to me complaining and Taranis
sent a private message saying this is an insult:

Before 1700 Catalonia was not independent but was a territory with its own institutions integrated into the Spanish Crown for centuries.

This is not an insult, these are history, and that it is not equipped them nazionalistas catalanistas that manipulan history, That is an insult.

Carlos
15-11-12, 15:22
The PSC makes Artur Mas Montroig in 'The Great Dictator "Charlie Chaplin"

http://www.lavozlibre.com/noticias/ampliar/669529/el-psc-de-montroig-convierte-a-artur-mas-en-el-gran-dictador-de-charles-chaplinThis is what we in the rest of Spain, is the PSC as it disguises alluding to Charles Chaplin, but we all know that another character is concerned.

In the rest of Spain and is a cry and everyone said and published, if someone does not like it, sorry, but the way things are and that is the freedom of expression.

These are issues that foreigners do not know you, because only listen victimhood, but these alleged victims are now executioners wore mask before.

Carlos
15-11-12, 15:58
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUFMxmIoFRc

Knovas
15-11-12, 16:21
Que no sois una nación y nunca lo váis a ser, bueno y menos tú que ni siquiera eres catalán de origen. Se ve claramente lo que son los independentistas y cual es su origen y su ideología .... ¡ya sabes de que hablo!

Knovas will come running to me complaining and Taranis
sent a private message saying this is an insult:

Before 1700 Catalonia was not independent but was a territory with its own institutions integrated into the Spanish Crown for centuries.

This is not an insult, these are history, and that it is not equipped them nazionalistas catalanistas that manipulan history, That is an insult.

For the people who doesn't understand Spanish: he's basically saying Catalonia is not a nation and will never be (wrong since the very beginning), and look at this, he says I am not Catalan origin even without having any idea of my family tree, and ignoring the fact that the thing is about culture, not ancestry.

Just to leave some things clear, your Y-DNA, Carlos, did not originate in Iberia, the same as many other haplogroups, and you consider yourself Spanish. Nothing wrong with it, because ancestry has nothing to do with the culture and tradition surrounding an individual since the birth date, or even a person can decide if he wants to belong to an ethnic group nowadays just because he wants to (there's many people born in Extremadura who feel themselves Catalan today and want independence for Catalonia). The later is not my case at all if you're interested in, but you have no authority to tell the others what they are: they're simply what they want regarding cultural and national traits.

In short: Stop with your racism, everybody can trace ancestors outside the place they were born, you're obviously not an exception. People knows perfectly what you're doing here, which is t.r.o.l.l.i.n.g as much as possible, with no other result than ridiculing yourself to date.

PD: I did not say the last you posted was an insult. I was simply pointing that you ignore your own history, and still do according to what I see :D

Carlos
15-11-12, 16:36
^^

Who knows, my DNA and may be in Spain for the last 11 centuries or maybe less, I do not know, but it may take even more centuries in Europe. Anyway its DNA and is of Spanish origin? You are as Spanish as I am. not comparable to his case by simply being born in Catalonia.


And now I have things to do, as I miss U.S. a country that is alive, truly decadent Europe.

Knovas
15-11-12, 16:45
I live in the Spanish State but I am Catalan, like it or not. And someday I won't be even part of Spain, time to cry xd

zanipolo
15-11-12, 20:03
^^

Who knows, my DNA and may be in Spain for the last 11 centuries or maybe less, I do not know, but it may take even more centuries in Europe. Anyway its DNA and is of Spanish origin? You are as Spanish as I am. not comparable to his case by simply being born in Catalonia.


And now I have things to do, as I miss U.S. a country that is alive, truly decadent Europe.

Test your chromosones and see where you are from . I have 91% european and 9% south-asian in my x-chromosone.....we can compare!

There is no DNA that belongs to any nation or people, its basically continental.

He is spanish in nationality, catalonian in culture, iberian geographically and a European...............thats how it is designed ............nationality can be changed overnight, culture will take a long time to change

Knovas
15-11-12, 21:06
And by the way, in the Spanish state, all people is listed as Spanish in their ID's, while for example in the UK, if you're Scottish the document says Scottish, if you're from Wales the document says Welsh, etc. Spain, unfortunately, had problems since the begining in recognizing its pluri-national character, while others did their job considering cultures and history.

That's certainly easy to change, the problem is it depends on the central government, what makes this really difficult becuase they don't think this way. However, other important issues should be fixed, so the summary is: no recognition + huge fiscal pressure for the Catalans = unacceptable.

Carlos
16-11-12, 01:23
I live in the Spanish State but I am Catalan, like it or not. And someday I won't be even part of Spain, time to cry xd

In the rest of Spain and even in Catalonia many people do not like independence, but independence Catalan by birth, not of origin are even more despised, are considered the worst of the worst.


The reason is that these people who are Catalan by birth, an accident often have large and complex to prove they are just as native Catalans are usually twice as radical and intolerant and deny their roots, is regrettable.

I love that foreigners, who are skipping knowing many things here in Spain.


When I say foreign ofcourse I do not mean you, Knovas.

Carlos
16-11-12, 01:35
Test your chromosones and see where you are from . I have 91% european and 9% south-asian in my x-chromosone.....we can compare!

There is no DNA that belongs to any nation or people, its basically continental.

He is spanish in nationality, catalonian in culture, iberian geographically and a European...............thats how it is designed ............nationality can be changed overnight, culture will take a long time to change

Culture is increasingly well in Europe, as I said, the Catalans bury their dead in the same places, eat at tables and chairs covered grilling Sunday, have the same business hours, social work and the rest of Spanish, go to movies and eat popcorn, go to the doctor, eat macaroni, wipe their ass with toilet paper, etc.


Do they speak Catalan? ok, Does powers speak Catalan? Perhaps when they say things speak Catalan culturally different than any other Spanish?


Cultural differences between Catalans and the rest of Spain was reduced to three or four folk expressions.

Carlos
16-11-12, 01:37
And by the way, in the Spanish state, all people is listed as Spanish in their ID's, while for example in the UK, if you're Scottish the document says Scottish, if you're from Wales the document says Welsh, etc. Spain, unfortunately, had problems since the begining in recognizing its pluri-national character, while others did their job considering cultures and history.

That's certainly easy to change, the problem is it depends on the central government, what makes this really difficult becuase they don't think this way. However, other important issues should be fixed, so the summary is: no recognition + huge fiscal pressure for the Catalans = unacceptable.

Cheap victimhood.

Carlos
16-11-12, 11:22
Hi all, good morning. Knovas where are you? How are you? I do not want you to suffer, but it was necessary, I will wake up.

Kardu
16-11-12, 11:50
Culture is increasingly well in Europe, as I said, the Catalans bury their dead in the same places, eat at tables and chairs covered grilling Sunday, have the same business hours, social work and the rest of Spanish, go to movies and eat popcorn, go to the doctor, eat macaroni, wipe their ass with toilet paper, etc.


Do they speak Catalan? ok, Does powers speak Catalan? Perhaps when they say things speak Catalan culturally different than any other Spanish?


Cultural differences between Catalans and the rest of Spain was reduced to three or four folk expressions.
We can trivialize this to the relationship between Spain and Portugal. (As I've mentioned before with my knowledge of Spanish I can easily understand Portuguese, but I can not say the same about Catalan). Does it mean that Portugal must be part of Spain or vice versa?
And I don't say this because I am in favor or against Catalan independence. Simply illogical arguments annoy me as a neutral observer.:)

Knovas
16-11-12, 16:24
In the rest of Spain and even in Catalonia many people do not like independence, but independence Catalan by birth, not of origin are even more despised, are considered the worst of the worst.


The reason is that these people who are Catalan by birth, an accident often have large and complex to prove they are just as native Catalans are usually twice as radical and intolerant and deny their roots, is regrettable.

I love that foreigners, who are skipping knowing many things here in Spain.


When I say foreign ofcourse I do not mean you, Knovas.
For the sake of the "argument", some facts for you: ALL present surnames in Iberia trace their origins long before the formation of Spain (and Portugal), so following your simple logic, there's nothing like "Spanish by origins". Surnames have its origins in different kingdoms and counties, that's the only truth, and then can slightly adapt with the pass of time. Some of them are identified with Castillian language, some of them with Catalan, some with Portuguese, but this only tells relatively recent information. In short, one more time your baseless claims have been thrown in the trash, since talking about Spanish origins is nothing but nonsense. Time to do some genealogical research, you would be surprised if you check the origins of most common surnames: my known surnames for example can be all traced to Catalonia, and only one surname to Aragón, and this one as well as the other Catalan origin surname of this ancestor, belonged to a person born in Murcia...he was my paternal grandfather, and according to your logic he was half Catalan and half Aragonese then, not Murcian. Rest of grandparents were what you would consider "Catalan", despite having no significant difference concerning their surnames (they were people whose ancestors lived generation after generation in a single Catalan town in Tarragona, just to clarify what we're talking about).

Some other examples concerning what I say, because this can be also applied to regional surnames:

- Soler is a typical Catalan surname, but comes from Soiler, which is French.

- Galindo is a surname which trace its origins in the Peninsula more or less since the 8th century, concretely Aragón. But this surname comes from Gail-Win, what means "the man of the spear", and it's Germanic in origin.

¿Do you see what this means? It's clear as day.

Keep going on twisting things, as you can see the issue is really complex when doing what you're trying to. The fact is we are dealing with culture, and this is absolutley free and depends only on one person, that simple. The ancestor I refered, if you are interested, considered himself Catalan because he came when he was a child to Catalonia, and he was so proud of this. That's the reality of people, the rest is nonsensical racism. I am talking seriously, think about it because you're going the wrong way.


Cheap victimhood.
Reality. The only victimism is yours calling the Catalans Nazis and Talibans, more or less like if what we're doing here it's evil or something like this. If you don't like the right to self-determination and need to spread rubbish like this, the problem is yours. Another one in the trash.


We can trivialize this to the relationship between Spain and Portugal. (As I've mentioned before with my knowledge of Spanish I can easily understand Portuguese, but I can not say the same about Catalan). Does it mean that Portugal must be part of Spain or vice versa?
And I don't say this because I am in favor or against Catalan independence. Simply illogical arguments annoy me as a neutral observer.:)
Kardu as usual is right. Everyone sees what your doing Carlos, you're blinded by your hate. Again, solve your problems and let people discuss normally.

Knovas
26-11-12, 17:02
There you are the results: http://www.parlament2012resultats.cat/09AU/DAU09999CM_L2.htm

There's an absolute majority with almost 70% of people voting in this elections. The problem is that Artur Mas lost some representation and the picture is more fragmented, but the overall votes in pro of independence increased. So in my opinion it's difficult to change anything right now, and I'm guessing we'll have to wait until year 2014 to do this properly. My suggestion is ERC and CiU should go together in next elections to get the hugest amount of votes ever seen (and to avoid losing votes), that's definetely the way if we want to leave Spain. Now it's really weird becuase we all know the vast majority supports independence, but the process will probably remain static...I mean, this was more or less like a referendum without effects.

Some manipulations were reported concerning "nil votes" and the difficulties for catalans who wanted to vote from other countries, but hope this won't happen again now that people knows whats going on.

Carlos
27-11-12, 00:16
C,I.U. pierde 12 escaños en estas elecciones regionales. Como ha podido verse la población catalana no ha apoyado a Artur Mas y su estúpido programa secesionista, auténtica cortina de humo con la que tapar la corrupción y mala gestión de C.I.U.

Estrepitoso fracaso de Artur Mas.

Subvencionan a los medios de comunicación para comprarlos, recortan en sanidad, educación y en todo lo que pueden e intentan engañar al pueblo con utopías, pero el pueblo ha dicho: NO

Conseguiremos erradicar el NAZIONALISMO regionalista por anticuado, retrógrado e inútil.

zanipolo
27-11-12, 08:36
please read all

http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2012/11/spanish-politics

Carlos
27-11-12, 11:34
^^Abroad have been taken too seriously these provincials.


They are backward with their own regional parties, because they are very afraid to changing times, and want to continue to have privileges in Spain at the expense of other regions.


Catalonia Forget not keep the rest of Spain. ERC and ruled with the PSC and proved a great useless, still a utopia and exploit the feeling that privinciano to live, surrealism is a cheap, sad and sorry that you are paying the people of Catalonia who is not rich, I assure you.


The issue of independence in Catalonia is in the hands of a 6 families related to each other these are what have become rich and allegedly with millions accounts in Switzerland, is a circus to get privileges, but other more advanced regions are not prepared mentally tolerate privileges for some regions, those are things of the past, of the Bourbons and the dictator Franco, even in Madrid Democracy continued his partners Basque Country and Catalonia, but that's like feeding the traitors.


It is very complicated and not just foreigners grasp reality and mask bearing the nazionalistas lies.

Knovas
27-11-12, 16:36
The analysis above (by the usual suspect) is the most biased one could read. People still wants independence, even more than before because the overall votes in favor increased more than the others. What changed is that the leader can't do it alone due to fragmentation, let's see what happens

Sooner or later some individuals will have to face reality. If someone thinks this is over having a clear majority, and that people will renounce to Catalonia's independence for this...wrong.

By the way, those informations concerning Switzerland will be proven to be false in next weeks or months, since there's quite a lot of evidence of this. The only thing they pretended was to reduce the votes for Artur Mas, and they achieved the goal. But the catalan reality is exactly the same ;)

zanipolo
29-11-12, 07:25
It will come for the Catalans followed by the Flemish next

Carlos
18-04-13, 14:45
Hello, how are you. The Catalan nazionalistas are corrupt to the gills, dozens of accounts in Switzerland, Andorra and flight capital tax havens in the hands of about 6 Mafia families and related to each other than are those that handle all nazi.onalista invention.


Poor Europe if Catalonia becomes independent would be asking for money at all times. I spent decades, even centuries ahead of other regions, privileges for the entire face and have done nothing, invented nothing, not created an industry of its own, nothing, just ask for money, that's all they do.


They are corrupt to the eyebrows.

FBS
18-04-13, 15:26
It will come for the Catalans followed by the Flemish next

Yes, Europe is changing, but it is difficult for some to understand it and especially accept it.

Carlos
18-04-13, 15:48
Change does not mean it's a change for the better, you can also switch to get worse.

FBS
18-04-13, 16:20
Change does not mean it's a change for the better, you can also switch to get worse.

Change is change, it does not mean that is good or bad. Changes cannot be stopped and we can lower our frustration by just accepting it and trying to make the best out of it. Only the history will tell if those changes were "good" or "bad" and still even that is biased or more precisely, relative.

Carlos
18-04-13, 16:29
Change is change, it does not mean that is good or bad. Changes cannot be stopped and we can lower our frustration by just accepting it and trying to make the best out of it. Only the history will tell if those changes were "good" or "bad" and still even that is biased or more precisely, relative.

You may be confused with this case, do not try to compare it with yours.


Nazi.onalismo Le Catalan is held about 6 Mafia families and related to each other. Now many of them will be prosecuted for their alleged corruption, capital flight to tax havens and corrupt concessions in exchange for incentives. That's it, a group of Mafia families.

And please stop asking the BBC liars and fake documentaries against Spain and for this mafia nazi.onalista.


Also the BBC documentary about Spain when you stop treatment National Geographic style, Dear, white men are not visiting a tribe from another continent.

Knovas
18-04-13, 20:53
Posting about fake corruption/mafia* and calling the Catalans "Nazis" does not help you.

You're biased and literaly going insane with that. I bet you'll get banned one more time.

*mostly created by the Spanish government, and ignoring their own which is the biggest problem LOL. Hello Barcenas! how is it going?

Carlos
18-04-13, 22:23
Posting about fake corruption/mafia* and calling the Catalans "Nazis" does not help you.

You're biased and literaly going insane with that. I bet you'll get banned one more time.

*mostly created by the Spanish government, and ignoring their own which is the biggest problem LOL. Hello Barcenas! how is it going?

You do not manipulate or misrepresent my words.

1. I have never been banned

2. I speak of the nazi.onalistas not of Catalan citizens. Nazi.onalista policy speak. Obviously all the Catalan people not eat the brain left by catalibanes.

Everyone has to learn as nazi.onalistas evaded € millions and millions of tax havens, money they get from Europe and all concessions to companies and transfers of itv (roadworthiness) in Spain is compulsory finger unfairly granted in exchange for commissions, and much more out there, we'll already taking.


La Cosa Nostra, la mafia nazi.onalista catalanista.

Kardu
18-04-13, 22:30
Change is change, it does not mean that is good or bad. Changes cannot be stopped and we can lower our frustration by just accepting it and trying to make the best out of it. Only the history will tell if those changes were "good" or "bad" and still even that is biased or more precisely, relative.


Political etc. changes don't just happen like hurricanes or earthquakes, their realization depends on the will, determination and power of involved forces/groups...
If a counter-group is stronger that particular change won't occur.

adamo
19-04-13, 00:30
You are not a nazi Carlos...but according to your haplogroups you MAY have been possibly persecuted by them if they saw you lol, as with me and my haplogroup T

Carlos
19-04-13, 00:47
You are not a nazi Carlos...but according to your haplogroups you MAY have been possibly persecuted by them if they saw you lol, as with me and my haplogroup T

The Nazi theme is very absurd and idiotic. I'm Spanish, from Spain one of the most important nations in the history of mankind, the Nazi historical theme I think is sad, unfortunate that it is better to try to avoid in the future.


Persecuted Me? oh, what a thrill, here I am waiting ....

Let's run away together to a better place, can not find ever, they do not know what love is, go armed, of course, we will not be so foolish.

LeBrok
19-04-13, 02:51
Persecuted Me? oh, what a thrill, here I am waiting ....

.
So you better tone down your rhetoric or I will make sure you will taste some persecution.

adamo
19-04-13, 04:53
At this point I'm terribly confused but at the point of laughing. What? Who is going to get persecuted? Lol what is the infractions here this has gotten funny and confusing, Carlos why are you armed?

Carlos
19-04-13, 10:09
At this point I'm terribly confused but at the point of laughing. What? Who is going to get persecuted? Lol what is the infractions here this has gotten funny and confusing, Carlos why are you armed?

Man is a bit of irony.

Carlos
19-04-13, 10:11
So you better tone down your rhetoric or I will make sure you will taste some persecution.

You want me to be more soft and subtle?

FBS
19-04-13, 14:55
You may be confused with this case, do not try to compare it with yours.


Nazi.onalismo Le Catalan is held about 6 Mafia families and related to each other. Now many of them will be prosecuted for their alleged corruption, capital flight to tax havens and corrupt concessions in exchange for incentives. That's it, a group of Mafia families.

And please stop asking the BBC liars and fake documentaries against Spain and for this mafia nazi.onalista.


Also the BBC documentary about Spain when you stop treatment National Geographic style, Dear, white men are not visiting a tribe from another continent.

Are you sure that I am confused? You consider yourself the all knowing and that you are immune to the brain washing of the media that you follow? Extreme points of view are the ones that are influenced heavily and I notice that you are a victim of it.

Carlos
19-04-13, 15:40
Are you sure that I am confused? You consider yourself the all knowing and that you are immune to the brain washing of the media that you follow? Extreme points of view are the ones that are influenced heavily and I notice that you are a victim of it.

You may not know the reality of life in Spain and how things are really. In recent decades Catalan nationalism has exerted a great marketing in the foreign media with lies, the view that you can have the whole thing is a whole Catalan people are asking for independence from Spain, but that does not is real, I imagine you do not know all the corruption of Catalan nationalism and also known as the brains were washed three generations in schools. Nor know that Catalan nationalism is an invention ideas back centroeurpeas centuries ago, an export retrograde and ridiculous that has developed its own style and artificial. Nor know that Catalan nationalism is based primarily on a fictional victimhood. Not for one moment think that 100% of Catalans want independence.

nordicwarrior
19-04-13, 16:19
The obligation of the U.E. is to end the crisis.

Doubtful. The intention of the E.U. is to fan the flames with the goal of eliminating powerful national boundaries.

The E.U. was dreamed up by some "academics" in Chicago. Do some research and verify this claim.

albanopolis
19-04-13, 16:26
You may not know the reality of life in Spain and how things are really. In recent decades Catalan nationalism has exerted a great marketing in the foreign media with lies, the view that you can have the whole thing is a whole Catalan people are asking for independence from Spain, but that does not is real, I imagine you do not know all the corruption of Catalan nationalism and also known as the brains were washed three generations in schools. Nor know that Catalan nationalism is an invention ideas back centroeurpeas centuries ago, an export retrograde and ridiculous that has developed its own style and artificial. Nor know that Catalan nationalism is based primarily on a fictional victimhood. Not for one moment think that 100% of Catalans want independence.
Enlighten me please! Is their push for independence economically driven or ethnically driven. Is Catalan language close to castellan or they are completely different?

LeBrok
19-04-13, 17:01
Doubtful. The intention of the E.U. is to fan the flames with the goal of eliminating powerful national boundaries.

The E.U. was dreamed up by some "academics" in Chicago. Do some research and verify this claim.
Why do you think everything needs to be staged and control by someone?

Can't it just be a natural process of unification under economy, free trade and defence?
Why do you think independent countries want to join EU even right now, even Turkey?

nordicwarrior
19-04-13, 17:18
Independent countries certainly do want to join the E.U. However they are from areas of the world that have been marginalized for some time.

Is Switzerland banging on the door to get in? What about England? What about a large chunk of Scandinavia?

Not everything is staged and controlled. But when events ARE being directed, then I'm going to say something.

**EDIT**
Again, I'd like to encourage the readers of this thread to research the beginnings of the E.U.

Kardu
19-04-13, 17:30
Enlighten me please! Is their push for independence economically driven or ethnically driven. Is Catalan language close to castellan or they are completely different?
By ethnic/genetic composition Catalans are pretty similar to the rest of the population of Iberian peninsula.

Castilian and Catalan are mutually intelligible as well (and bare in mind both evolved from the language of the Roman conquerors of Hispania).

Current conflict is politically/culturally driven.

Knovas
19-04-13, 17:48
You do not manipulate or misrepresent my words.

1. I have never been banned
False. You were banned time ago (at least for some time).


You do not manipulate or misrepresent my words.
2. I speak of the nazi.onalistas not of Catalan citizens. Nazi.onalista policy speak. Obviously all the Catalan people not eat the brain left by catalibanes.
Like it or not, the people who wants independence represents THE VAST MAJORITY of the Catalan society according to all surveys. So you're calling nazis millions of citizens just because you don't agree with them. Yeah, very nice.

Let's make some things clear: There's a huge difference between those you call "Nazis" and people like you. The former want to make possible that the Catalan society decides its own future (maybe sounds like a silly remark, but that includes those who want independence and those who not), while the later only work to avoid this happen (using all kind of methods as you showed many times).

¿Who's most similar to Nazis? I bet most people already knows the answer LOL


Everyone has to learn as nazi.onalistas evaded € millions and millions of tax havens, money they get from Europe and all concessions to companies and transfers of itv (roadworthiness) in Spain is compulsory finger unfairly granted in exchange for commissions, and much more out there, we'll already taking.


La Cosa Nostra, la mafia nazi.onalista catalanista.
Everyone? really? :D

No one said there's no corruption in Catalonia: more or less the same as other regions with similar legal possibilities. The dishonest trick, and that for sure is something everyone sees, is trying to exagerate the facts desperately for strange purposes or personal hate.

None of the present regions in the Spanish State is responsible of anything: the problem is the central government and its pitiful management: there's where we find the most important competences on economics, and if we see that the most part of the debt belongs to the state framework...not difficult to infer how is this possible.

But, according to you, a region like Catalonia with no competences in many areas and suffering from a huge fiscal pressure, is where we should look at to understand the whole ruin and the mafia network in Spain XD

Seriously, ¿do you think we're idiots? Find another playground.

Knovas
19-04-13, 17:57
By ethnic/genetic composition Catalans are pretty similar to the rest of the population of Iberian peninsula.

Castilian and Catalan are mutually intelligible as well (and bare in mind both evolved from the language of the Roman conquerors of Hispania).

Current conflict is politically/culturally driven.
First of all driven by the people ;)

Castillian and Catalan are pretty similar to each other sometimes, as they are with other latin languages. But clearly different languages in the latin context, that's undeniable (even if some individuals remain in denial, mostly in Spain by the way...imagine why).

FBS
19-04-13, 19:38
You may not know the reality of life in Spain and how things are really. In recent decades Catalan nationalism has exerted a great marketing in the foreign media with lies, the view that you can have the whole thing is a whole Catalan people are asking for independence from Spain, but that does not is real, I imagine you do not know all the corruption of Catalan nationalism and also known as the brains were washed three generations in schools. Nor know that Catalan nationalism is an invention ideas back centroeurpeas centuries ago, an export retrograde and ridiculous that has developed its own style and artificial. Nor know that Catalan nationalism is based primarily on a fictional victimhood. Not for one moment think that 100% of Catalans want independence.

So, you are a protector of Catalans, you know what is good for them, right? All you are doing in this thread is that you are actually presenting yourself as the rightful person the one who is concerned for the wellbeing of Catalans? I am very much familiar with these kind of stories, serbs have said the same for our freedom fighters and freedom movement, same what you are saying for the Catalan leaders. It is difficult to accept such a change and loose power over some territories, I know.

Knovas
19-04-13, 21:50
I am glad it seems Serbia is finally going to recognise Kosovo. On the other hand, it's quite funny that Spain keeps in denial. Well, no one cares much about this, and surely you Kosovars laugh at loud at this. Just another episode showing how pathetic the Spanish State can be.

Greetings from Catalonia.

Carlos
19-04-13, 22:45
Enlighten me please! Is their push for independence economically driven or ethnically driven.


Is Catalan language close to castellan or they are completely different?








Paranoia and fantasy. They are imitators and exported centroeuropa ideas, Robert in Catalonia and Sabino Arana in the Basque Country. There are many writings from other times pejoratively speaking Spanish in an attempt to want to show that Basque and Catalan are higher, then when Nazism was defeated in Europe quit ethnic discourse and focus on the argument have a different language as the main weapon differentiating, discriminatory to the rest of Spanish, besides becoming victims, and get many awards of Spanish democracy, and they get to take control of education in the region, entirely in Catalan, discriminating the national language of all Spanish which is the Castilian or Spanish. To date there are three generations brainwashed.

Two languages ​​derived from Latin and closely related. Catalan Grammar the Pompeu i Fabra developed relatively recently and did something away from Spanish grammar. It is very easy for anyone to learn Spanish Catalan, Basque is very difficult in comparison.

You could say that Catalan nationalism has made great efforts to highlight and enhance the two or three folk aspects that differentiates Spanish, everything else can speak Spanish culture in a homogeneous whole.

Carlos
19-04-13, 22:49
So, you are a protector of Catalans, you know what is good for them, right? All you are doing in this thread is that you are actually presenting yourself as the rightful person the one who is concerned for the wellbeing of Catalans? I am very much familiar with these kind of stories, serbs have said the same for our freedom fighters and freedom movement, same what you are saying for the Catalan leaders. It is difficult to accept such a change and loose power over some territories, I know.

I do not talk to the Catalan speak to the nationalists, is very different. Think that Catalonia is not the engine of Spain Catalonia is completely ruined and could only keep their officials for 7 months if independent. Why is it ruined? because regional leaders are useless and have many accounts of millions of Euros in Switzerland and other tax havens, you can review and confirm the Spanish press. Think these people are subsidizing bilingualism in Guatemala, keeping Catalan embassies abroad where it employs finger to her children and friends and can not pay, health, education, etc. dienro spend on useless things for the people of Catalonia, steal and then blame their woes to the rest of Spain. Catalan nationalism is a real mafia.

Knovas
19-04-13, 22:59
Just for you to understand guys: In the Spanish State, if you consider yourself Spanish, then you're not a nationalist :D


PD: And bla bla bla with more fairly tales. The Godfather (Catalan Editon), by Carlos. Check this out! XD

zanipolo
19-04-13, 23:13
By ethnic/genetic composition Catalans are pretty similar to the rest of the population of Iberian peninsula.

Castilian and Catalan are mutually intelligible as well (and bare in mind both evolved from the language of the Roman conquerors of Hispania).

Current conflict is politically/culturally driven.

they are different

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castilian_Spanish

all languages are in reality all dialects....the term language is only the status of the nation gives it...example Montenegrin was a dialect and when they became a nation in 2006 , overnight , montegrian was classified a language.
No country has their language classified as a dialect.

there is no world body that can stop anyone classifying what is a language and what is a dialect.....linguistic say all languages are dialects

Kardu
19-04-13, 23:38
they are different

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castilian_Spanish



Where did I say they are same? :) Read my post before responding:"Castilian and Catalan are mutually intelligible as well (and bare in mind both evolved from the language of the Roman conquerors of Hispania)."

Carlos
20-04-13, 00:42
Artur Mas 'buy' the 'favors' Godo Group by 9 million euros

Godo Group is a great distance, the largest media group benefited from these grants and subsidies granted by the Government of CiU arbitrarily, and in some cases without any publicity.

http://www.elplural.com/2012/06/28/el-grupo-godo-recibe-casi-9-millones-del-gobierno-de-artur-mas/

5.5 million for rotating edition of La Vanguardia in Catalan
In times like these, of restrictions and austerity in almost all sectors, the same Government of Catalonia led by Artur Mas has given the not inconsiderable figure of 5.5 million euros to the company Cre-to Impressions de Catalunya, SL, chaired by Javier de Godo, with the aim of expanding "the printing plant of the company for the edition of La Vanguardia in Catalan".


The strange thing is that the council Cre-to Impressions de Catalunya convened last June 14 strike ten days because of the presentation of three job layoffs that have taken to the streets to 29 workers, intended reduce by 25% the salary of another 24 workers and aspire to substantial change in working conditions the rest of the staff of the company, with the non-application of labor agreement in force until June 24.

Friends of Europedia here can study this article which is clearly seen as nationalist politicians have bought the press in Catalonia.

This is the regime cataliban, 0% transparency, 100% corruption and manipulation.

Benefits or grants??

During fiscal 2011, despite the economic crisis affects very hard to all Spanish media, Grupo Godo earned profits of 7,216 million euros, an amount slightly less than 8.7157 million euros the same publishing group received for grants and subsidies from the Government of the Generalitat.

LeBrok
20-04-13, 02:21
I do not talk to the Catalan speak to the nationalists, is very different. Think that Catalonia is not the engine of Spain Catalonia is completely ruined and could only keep their officials for 7 months if independent. Why is it ruined? because regional leaders are useless and have many accounts of millions of Euros in Switzerland and other tax havens, you can review and confirm the Spanish press. Think these people are subsidizing bilingualism in Guatemala, keeping Catalan embassies abroad where it employs finger to her children and friends and can not pay, health, education, etc. dienro spend on useless things for the people of Catalonia, steal and then blame their woes to the rest of Spain. Catalan nationalism is a real mafia.
More reasons to let them go. Why would you want to keep "losers and mafia" in Spain?

LeBrok
20-04-13, 02:24
cataliban,


One more thing like this and you are banned forever!

Carlos
20-04-13, 03:43
More reasons to let them go. Why would you want to keep "losers and mafia" in Spain?

I would have to ask why not go now, or why not gone or why not go?


You think Spain will desmenbrar for inventing a regionalist nationalist politicians corrupt?




Corrupt actions will be prosecuted

Knovas
20-04-13, 12:24
¿Inventing things? With such a funny stories I don't think you're the proper person to give us lessons XD

Catalonia has its own language oficially recognized, and much older institutions than those known as "Spanish". No invention my friend, that's the reality which hurts people like you (fortunately, not all the Spaniards).

http://lacomunidad.elpais.com/blogfiles/playero-27/173063_ConstitucionsCatalanesVolumIr.jpg

...don't cry.

PD: More info here: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constituciones_catalanas

Tenían preeminencia sobre las demás normas legales y sólo podían ser revocadas por las propias Cortes catalanas. Como derecho pactado, no podían ser contradichas por decretos o edictos de un rey.

Carlos
20-04-13, 13:03
^^

Do not misrepresent. Catalonia is bilingual.

---------------------0-------------------------


The Argentine government through Interpol hopes the explanations eldest son of Jordi Pujol (the full packs 500e ticket for Banca Mora in Andorra) for alleged corruption and scams of business in Puerto Rosario. Interpol and Finance are on the trail of the 118 transactions worth 38 million euros (of paradise in paradise) ....

Carlos
20-04-13, 13:27
"Two generations have been educated to hate Spain"




Alicia Verós


The journalist and writer Javier Montilla distilled disappointment when he talks about his latest book The walls of Catalonia (Ed. 800 Books) because it believes that it will be very difficult to reverse a situation that has been brewing for the past 30 years, based on lies and indoctrination from early childhood.


AV: Can you do something to curb the sovereignist process Catalan?


Javier Montilla: We attempted to integrate 33 years nationalism has been a failure. Spain has tried everything: it has evolved from a centralized Jacobin nation, to be one of the most decentralized countries in the world. It has been given to various Spanish languages ​​certain status, and competence in education, justice or healing to the Autonomous Communities and nationalism has not had enough.


AV: The Government of Spain talks about responsibility and dialogue, is it enough?


JM: The Central Government has great responsibility in what is happening. As a Spanish citizen living in Catalonia want my government protect me. We absolutely desvocado nationalism, and a Mariano Rajoy as a plasma profile looking at things and acting like Don Tancredo.


AV: What part of the blame are the major national parties not knowing when, unable or unwilling to stop the process sovereignist Catalan?


JM: The PSC has been a servile maid of nationalism and PPC was another puppet. Recall the famous Majestic pact that served to shield the language skills and to oust Alejo Vidal Quadras. And the current CFP leaves us with the unique financing for Catalonia. Nationalism had not come here without these faithful servants.


AV: It often seems that from the rest of Spain not understand what is actually Catalan nationalism. Or is minimized or exaggerated the situation.


JM: There are two Cataluñas, real and official. The real is where you can breathe normally. And then there's the official Catalonia Catalonia is not only government: Behind there is a whole cluster of minions and mamandurrieros living subsidy. Through media and TV3 have gotten two generations of Catalans have been educated to hate Spain.


AV: You can not ignore that there is a feeling of illusion between independence.


JM: The cultural and social hegemony achieved excites many people, to the point that there is independence say you prefer to be poor but independent. They've got a huge army of nationalists through indoctrination and lies.


A. V.: And all based on language, Catalan.


JM: One of the nonsense that attempts to demystify the book is that a language is a nation. Nationalism is not something that comes from common sense, but of emotion, and for them the language is untouchable. The Castilian is a foreign language, imposed, and Catalan is the language of Catalonia. If 55% of Catalans have Castilian as the language is so typical of Catalonia and Catalan. As lie and continue to lie, do not want you to know that many ask is that you Castilian and Catalan, because both languages ​​are ours, and we are alike. But never will allow. But they do: Artur Mas, José Montilla bring their children to elite schools where the language of instruction are Catalan, Castilian, English, French and German. They want to be great leaders of the servants of the Gleva, condemning all those who can not afford an elite school language immersion. It is the hypocrisy of the Founding Fathers. The same with the children of former President Jordi Pujol, the of 'Spain robs us' are registered in Madrid. That is nationalism exposed.


The book The walls of Catalonia, Javier Montilla, is this Saturday April 20 at 18.00 in the parking Borrell (c / Viladomat, 2, Barcelona), and will be attended to Promote Citizen President, José Domingo , the president of the Association for Tolerance, Eduardo Lopez-Dóriga, and journalist Juan Carlos Girauta.

http://www.dialogolibre.com/noticias/2013-04-19/Dos-generaciones-han-sido-educadas-en-el-odio-a-Espana-1724#.UXHSwKIqy1A

Carlos
20-04-13, 13:57
The Catalan philosopher Felix de Azua leave Catalonia for his son

The Thinker, one of the most prestigious in Europe, says that "in Catalonia there is a soft totalitarianism similar to Peronism in Argentina"

How many intellectuals and cultural workers have left and Catalonia? The last is Felix de Azua, one of the most prestigious Spanish philosophers throughout Europe. Leave Catalonia nationalist pressure in daily life of people.


In an interview published Sunday in The World - "I am an exile from Catalonia in Madrid" - De Azua explains his change of residence to Madrid:


"I will be a father in a few days and that led me to think that selfishness is over. Do not want our daughter to be educated in Catalonia. Educate not wish that some ideologues that will lead to an undesirable situation with the rest of Spanish. happen I do not want him as a friend when his 8 year old son asked, "Dad, what are we: Catalan or fascists?." that's the prevailing ideology in colleges and universities across extreme surveillance nationalist political commissars ".
AN EXILE IN HIS OWN COUNTRY


The Doctor of Philosophy leaves his homeland. Before Albert did Boadella (Performing Arts) - Boadella , tired of nationalism, it will not work in Catalonia - and before that Loquillo - Loquillo (singer): "If you live in Catalonia and you're not in favor of chanchullismo (corruption), you're a fascist" -. Recently, too, Paco Mir - Paco Mir, Tricicle, let Catalonia "because ignoring me" -.


These are just four examples of Catalans who have decided to leave the place they were born because of the nationalists, for one reason or another, in the regional power since 1980. Culture - provided it is not nationalist - at odds with current Catalonia.


Is it an exile?, Asked De Azua. "Absolutely," replies the philosopher. "In Catalonia there is a soft totalitarianism similar to Peronism in Argentina. [...] I'm not the only one [who think so]. Catalans are many who would be willing to go to escape the constant monologue of Catalan nationalism ... ".

Knovas
20-04-13, 14:01
The only one who misrepresents and posts nothing but opinions from people who are clearly against the process, is you.

The original language of Catalonia is Catalan (from Latin), not Castillian. The later came with Castillians who forced to impose their language since, at least, 1714. We have no problem in using two languages nowadays despite of this, but if you try to say that both languages were spoken at the same time since the begining, you're simply fooling.

Still waiting you retract your lies about the Catalan identity, which I already proved predates Spain and possessed its own sovereignty. But I guess you're going to keep deviating attention with another batch of useless posts.

PD: Very nice interview from google translator :D.

Cambrius (The Red)
20-04-13, 18:58
I've never heard of a Catalan mafia.

Anthro-inclined
20-04-13, 19:08
I've never heard of a Catalan mafia.
There are organized crime syndicates in almost every region of the globe. Expliotation is a big business and cuts across cultural backrounds. Just because hollywood hasnt made a movie about them with Bobby de Niro, dosent mean there isnt a Catalan mafia.

Knovas
20-04-13, 19:37
That's the point. The so called mafia is everywhere. What is ridiculous, is to present Catalonia as the most dishonest region in Spain (and the whole globe if necessary xD) just because someone doesn't like independentists.

I am also waiting for him to explain how is it possible that the state framework contains more than 70% of the total Spanish debt, not the communities. Probably a Catalan was administrating the money or something like this...LOL

Carlos
23-04-13, 16:05
"I bet you're Spanish," he told the pilot, to which Merlos, journalist, replied "no, sorry, I'm Catalan."

http://www.libertaddigital.com/deportes/formula1/2013-04-23/vettel-se-rie-de-un-periodista-de-tv3-por-decirle-que-es-catalan-y-no-espanol-1276488234/ (http://www.libertaddigital.com/deportes/formula1/2013-04-23/vettel-se-rie-de-un-periodista-de-tv3-por-decirle-que-es-catalan-y-no-espanol-1276488234/)

http://s.libertaddigital.com/fotos/noticias/650/0/vettel-merlos.jpg

Vettel laughs a TV3 reporter for telling which is Catalan and not Spanish

The pilot, German, remarked: "I bet you're English", to Which Mer them answered "no, sorry, I'm Catalan." Then the Red Bull, laughing, I snapped, "Yes, it is a big difference. Gran difference. 'S Like being German or Bavarian", without taking anything seriously for the declaration of the journalist.

What a shame! I apologize, we can only feel embarrassment. Bravo for Vettel, a great lesson.

Knovas
23-04-13, 18:23
As usual, wasting his time in useless things concerning opinions, and avoiding to face the lies he said. So predictable.

Carlos
23-04-13, 23:07
Congratulations BY good game, great!

4 - 0

nurset
24-04-13, 10:17
What's the difference between Catalons and Spanish? Why there is a problem?

Carlos
24-04-13, 10:45
What's the difference between Catalons and Spanish? Why there is a problem?

Not a problem between Catalan and Spanish because Spanish Catalan also. The problem is some of all Catalans. There are always people who do not eat the brain stops. Investigate corruption Catalan nationalist politicians and all accounts are in Switzerland and other tax havens.

Disempowering Unesco separatist entity that bears his name
M. J. CAÑIZARES - DAY 24/04/2013

Unesco recognizes the Catalan club that bears his name and which on its website says that self-determination "would prevent many deaths in the Spanish State." In a letter seen by the ABC, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Cooperation said that the Friends of UNESCO, an entity declared by the Government 'association of public utility "...

http://kioskoymas.abc.es/noticias/espana/20130424/sevp-unesco-desautoriza-entidad-separatista-20130424.html


In Europe it is now becoming fashionable to laugh.

Knovas
24-04-13, 18:18
The problem is for the people like Carlos, not accepting that the vast majority of the Catalans want to decide their future. That simple and easy to see when reading the thread.

On the other hand, the holder you mention is false because It is not what their website says. Supposedly, it is an article by another person what talks about this. But I don't find it, so the best option is you or your favorite Spanish press, provide the so called article. Just to show that at least there's something true, even if the main idea is completely false (as usual) LOL.

Carlos
28-04-13, 22:35
POLITICIZATION AND IMMERSION IN SCHOOLS

Balearic students face planted linguistic imposition

A group of students, tired of indoctrination in the classroom, have created a partnership and reported cases.

As reported, there is to be even insults. The Andrea herself suffered, who recounted how a teacher "middle class" called "petita fatxeta (" little fascist "), simply by" wear a tie with the Spanish flag and the Balearic Islands. "When he went to talk to him, he snapped: "There is nothing to talk about, I'll try that this does not affect the note".

However, on occasion the notes themselves have been affected by using the Castilian. "In my class to a friend who made ​​a work written in Catalan but that, when conducting exposure used the Castilian" the professor downgraded a point, said Laura Libertad Digital.

"Do not treat us as students, but as to their future voters"

http://www.libertaddigital.com/espana/2013-04-20/estudiantes-de-baleares-plantan-cara-a-la-imposicion-linguistica-1276488025/

Indoctrination and imposition. Judge for yourselves!

Knovas
12-05-13, 21:31
And again, avoiding to post the info when it's requested, and pretending that Catalonia is the most corrupt region in the whole world just because something happens (the same as in other places).

Empty discussion.

LeBrok
13-05-13, 05:16
And again, avoiding to post the info when it's requested, and pretending that Catalonia is the most corrupt region in the whole world just because something happens (the same as in other places).

Empty discussion.
The funny thing is that he still wants to keep this "most corrupt" region in Spain.
Carlos is suspended for 10 days for his continued attacks and only derogatory remarks against Catalonia.

GO ALONSO GO!!! :grin:

Knovas
13-05-13, 17:17
Really sad that lots of Spaniards think the same way regarding Catalonia. Not all of course, but still excessive (especially among politicians). It is impossible to live with someone who does not accept you, it can't be sustained eternally without consequences.

I have friends in Madrid, and even if they don't understand the reasons why we seek independence, at least, they are far more respectful than him.

julia90
13-05-13, 19:23
catalans should try the way of Fiscal Federalism in Spain, they would give few taxes to central state and mantain their money in their region. Fiscal Federalism is a more suitable option than secession i think.

Knovas
13-05-13, 21:25
Federalism is not an option in Spain. Everyone with basic knowledge on how Spain works, knows perfectly that it's simply impossible. Despite its regional division, the Spanish centralism is as clear as it is in France for instance.

Imagine Spanish politicians accepting there's more than one nation in Spain, letting the Catalans, Basques, and Galicians, administrate their own money with minimal taxes. Sounds like science fiction, just keep in mind what happened when Catalonia renewed its regional law (clearly pointing to a federal direction), and the Spanish court erased and changed the most part of it. Moreover, what was finally aproved, it's not even followed by the Spanish government and nothing happens.

Status quo or independence, there's no other choice here.

oriental
14-05-13, 01:11
I think the Bourbons were in Spain, Mexico and elsewhere at one time so they must have set up the centralization where ever they went. I think it started after the 'Joan of Arc' incident. I saw two version of the movie: Ingrid Bergman and then with Lee Sobieski as Joan. Funny thing Ingrid Bergman and Lana Turner were in "Dr.Jekyll and Mister Hyde. " Ingrid with Spencer Tracy Lana with Frederic March. I got these from the Library DVDs. These oldies are great. Though the special effects are not perfect but the editing, storyline and directing really bring in the scares.

Carlos
31-07-13, 16:46
Happy holidays to all and if they choose Spain as a tourist destination will welcome you happy can find beach destinations like Barcelona and visit the capital is Madrid or Andalusia any destination Great choice of Spain will be satisfactory.


Many greetings and remember Ithaca is a fantasy. Happy holidays.

edao
31-07-13, 21:58
Does anyone want to be Spanish?

What's wrong with letting the various regions just break off. Germany can rule over them with an economic iron fist, they'll soon whip them into shape.
Whoever's left can lay claim to being Spanish and the rest of us will just be sure to ask "What part of Iberia are you from?":satisfied:

http://richardbrenneman.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/blog-spaintoon.jpg