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strongvoicesforward
02-07-06, 15:12
After WW2 Jews were given a land in Palestine so as to make their own country. However, Palestinians were already living there. Surviving European Jews, Russian Jews, and even U.S. Jews began arriving in order to build a country they could call their own.

Until recently I almost always felt like the Jewish country had a right to exist in Palestine, however, after reading on it and thinking a little more on it I have begun to see more clearly the Palestinian view.

Of course, Jews make a cultural claim to lands in Palestine based on their religion, but they had long since lost that claim by not being able to maintain a country for thousands of years. Faits accompli perhaps should have applied to them and they should not have been the benefactors of a forcefully created country.

The question I have for Europeans, mainly Brits, France, and even Americans to some extent -- but let me use Britain as an example:

If the winning powers of WW2 felt so guilty and sorry for the atrocities that the Jews experienced during WW2, rather than artificially creating a country for them in Palestine, already occupied by natives there, why not say give them Northern Ireland and displace the Irish? How would Brits or the Irish feel about that (minus the Jewish biblical claim)? In America`s case, why not give them one whole state to congregate in and make a country?

The more I think of it, I just feel the Palestinians are in a similar plight as the U.S. Indians 200 years ago. They have been displaced by intruders. The only difference is, the Palestinians are not going as easily or quietly.

Was that U.S. and European arrogance to do that (i.e. forcefully create a country onto a land for foreignors to come and take over and relegate the native inhabitants to inferior status) to the Palestinians?

My opinion is "Yes" it was and the creation of Israel was wrong.

Maciamo
02-07-06, 16:06
Good topic !



The question I have for Europeans, mainly Brits, France, and even Americans to some extent -- but let me use Britain as an example:
If the winning powers of WW2 felt so guilty and sorry for the atrocities that the Jews experienced during WW2, rather than artificially creating a country for them in Palestine, already occupied by natives there, why not say give them Northern Ireland and displace the Irish?

I think that the main reason for choosing Palestine is because the Jews wanted it and many had already bought vast expanses of land there. After the Holocaust, many Jews just didn't want to stay in Germany, and Eastern Europe was under Communist rule (not much more friendly to them). More Jews migrated to the Americas than to Israel after WWII. Nowadays there are still more Jews just in the USA than in Israel.



Was that U.S. and European arrogance to do that (i.e. forcefully create a country onto a land for foreignors to come and take over and relegate the native inhabitants to inferior status) to the Palestinians?

Let's keep in mind that Palestine was a British colony until a part of it became Israel. I suppose that the politicians of the time thought that the Jews and Muslims could cohabit peacefully as they had done in many Muslim countries in the past. But it didn't happen. The Jews turned to religious radicalism and decided that the Muslims had no right to stay on their holy land anymore. This is where the problems started. So in my opinion the Israeli are more to blame than the Brits or Americans. The US government is mainly to blame for having unilaterally supported Israel against their Arabic neighbours and still do.

But it's true that had Israel not been created after WWII, it is highly likely that the Muslim world would not be angry at the USA, Britain and the West in general (by extension) and we would not be facing the terrorist threats that we are facing today. To be cynical, had the US not intervened to defeat Germany as early as it did (say 2 or 3 years later), there may not have been enough Jews left to cause trouble in Israel nowdays, and by consequence also less problems between the West and the Muslim world. However you look at it, the responsability is first that of the Israeli, then that of the US government supporting them ever since the creation of Israel. I don't see how Europe is to blame. Nazi Germany has even inspired contemporary Muslim radicals (just look at the Iranian president calling for the destruction of Israel and the Jews).

This said, I am a better opinion of Jews (although mostly those that are not Israeli) in general than Muslims in general.

strongvoicesforward
02-07-06, 16:31
The Jews turned to religious radicalism and decided that the Muslims had no right to stay on their holy land anymore. This is where the problems started.

Yes, and in this I see parallels with the European displacement of native Americans as they, and then the U.S. after independence pushed west, often based on a seemingly mandate from heaven to conquer the savages for the good of advancement and to bring their god to the heathens. However, I think a lot of that was just a disguise for greed.


So in my opinion the Israeli are more to blame than the Brits or Americans.

Agreed. But I view the U.S. and Britain as the heart blood pumping through the limbs that move the muscles (Israeli Jews). I would consider the military weapons complex/corporations as the bone structure of the organism that lobbies the administrations of the U.S. and Britain. In those seats of powers are the minds or brain that bases their decisions on realpolitik.

It might not be the perfect analogy, but for the present it is my world view. Perhaps someone else could paint a better analogy that takes in the relationship of the different aspects of these entities.


The US government is mainly to blame for having unilaterally supported Israel against their Arabic neighbours and still do.

Agreed. When a relationship takes precedent over altruistic motives and goals, justice gets lost. Now, the U.S. is earning the scorn of a large portion of the world merely for wanting to have a strategic friend in the region.

Minty
03-07-06, 00:25
Before I begin I must indicate I am not anti-Semitic or designated to be externally offensive

The British dominion rendered Jews admittance to Israel, from here it turned into a pious, hence Israel becomes the "God's promised landh and thence exacts on the soil of Israel where constituted by the Jews absenting Palestinians from their domiciles by coerce, and demolishing anything they possessed.

The U.S. is the provider of munitions that is used against them and many affluent Jews patronage Israel in governmentally and fiscally. This has wrathed the Muslims so gravely that they sent suicide bombers into reducing the World Trade Centres and the pentagon to ashes.

I think the Jews should have been relocated to Alaska but whatfs done is done, they will just have to work something out to be fair to both side as much as possible.

Sensuikan San
03-07-06, 05:53
One final word before I leave for ever c and gladly c.!
WELL!
Once Maciamo and his buddy, the gAnimal Rights Activisth - yeknow, the so-called gStrongvoicesforwardh (What a silly and naïve name c !) finally got together (in bed – for all I know!) it didnft take long before the true anti-Semitic nature of their mandate came to the fore, did it!
I always suspected that there was something like this lurking there, to one degree or another, in both of you.
But I never, ever, suspected that either of you were so stupid or so lax as to actually come out with it!
You surely realize that this can brand this site as a source of grace hateh – or do you care?
As an older individual from different times, who is leaving this forum – I donft care. But you both live in todayfs world! Grow up and smell the coffee!
What a pair of self- opinionated jerks!
One Euro-centric gevangelistic atheisth (who gives the rest of us a bad name) who feels that anybody who has an opinion opposed to his own on any matter – particularly religion, is an enemy .... and another rather pathetic American gtree-huggerh who desperately wants us all to see that he does all the right things, says the right things – in the right way, has no vices, doesnft smoke, doesnft drink, doesnft fart, doesnft pee doesnft bloody exist for all we know – but will lay down his life (he saysc) for the life of an ant (he says c) and belongs to an organization that has been responsible for industrial vandalism to the point of bombing laboratories and at least putting human life at risk c give me a break!
I wonft call gSVFh an animal c he doesnft deserve the title!
He is merely a pain in the @$$ - rather like a hemorrhoid c !
That these two individuals can now throw their lot in and join forces with the same guys who took down c.. well you all know what happened on September 11, 2001, is a bit of a shock, and a surprise to me. But not totally.
Anything for a good thread, eh?
BTW – I am not Jewish- nor is anybody in my family, and never have been. I just donft like Fascists!
Also, BTW – I do not appreciate the smug and assumptive comments about Ireland, Northern Ireland or the Irish! In that regard, Maciamo was being bloody assumptive about me and my familyfs heritage.!
But that doesnft surprise me!
Also, BTW – Maciamo – what a wonderful job you are doing with your new forum! Congratulations!

Totally disgusted,
For the very last time c.

ƒWƒ‡ƒ“

Maciamo
03-07-06, 10:24
What are you talking about Sensuikan ? As I said in other posts, many of my favourite 20th-century people (Einstein, Freud, Bernstein ) and other people in history (Spinoza, Newton, the Rothschild family...) and even actors and actresses (David Schwimmer, Lisa Kudrow, Adam Sandler... ) are Jews. If we can't even criticse the way the Israeli treat the Palestinians without being called anti-Semitic ! Unbelievable ! I didn't expect such narrow-mindedness that coming from you, Sensuikan.


Also, BTW – I do not appreciate the smug and assumptive comments about Ireland, Northern Ireland or the Irish! In that regard, Maciamo was being bloody assumptive about me and my familyfs heritage.!

What did I ever say against (or just about) Northern Ireland or Ireland ? Are you of Irish descent ? I thought that you were British-born (and most Northern Irish don't call themselves British if they don't have too).

This is just another (now typical) example of people accusing me of things I have never said, done or even thought !

strongvoicesforward
03-07-06, 16:52
Before I begin my reply, I would hope and ask that Maciamo split these last several posts into an "Off topic thread reply to Sensuikan San" so that the thread can continue focused on the OP.
------------------------------------------------------

Hi John,



Once Maciamo and his buddy, the gAnimal Rights Activisth - yeknow, the so-called gStrongvoicesforwardh (What a silly and naiNve name c !)...

It`s just a name, John. There are many silly names amongst the members. The name does not really refer to me. I made the "voices" plural to honor all those who are in the minority who speak up for what they believe in. That`s all.


... finally got together (in bed | for all I know!) it didnft take long before the true anti-Semitic nature of their mandate came to the fore, did it!
I always suspected that there was something like this lurking there, to one degree or another, in both of you.

Why can`t anyone say anything negative about Israel without being labeled "anti-semitic?" Even Minty had to feel like he/she had to declare herself not an anti-semite before she even said something about them. Why so sensitive to Jews? Are they deserving of special treatment that bars them from criticism?


You surely realize that this can brand this site as a source of grace hateh | or do you care?

What hateful thing was said?


What a pair of self- opinionated jerks!

Why does having an opinion make someone a jerk? The thread was in fact started in the "Opinion" section of the forum.


and another rather pathetic American gtree-huggerh who desperately wants us all to see that he does all the right things,

I try to do right.


... says the right things

I try to say right.


...has no vices,

I surely do have some.


...doesnft smoke,

Never have.


...doesnft drink,

A Corona or glass of red wine 2 or 3 times a week.


...doesnft fart,

My wife will tell you I do.


...doesnft pee,

I do after the Corona and wine.


...doesnft bloody exist for all we know

Those I`ve peed on will tell you I do.


| but will lay down his life (he saysc) for the life of an ant (he says c)

Where did I eve say that?


and belongs to an organization that has been responsible for industrial vandalism to the point of bombing laboratories and at least putting human life at risk

Which org does that that I said I belonged to?


I wonft call gSVFh an animal c he doesnft deserve the title!
He is merely a pain in the @$$ - rather like a hemorrhoid c !

I am left to wonder why some accuse me of spoiling the atmosphere when it are those people who use the most vile language of all. My language has always been well constrained, and I had never become a forum stalker following someone around to all the threads they created to take issue with every single thing they posted on.


That these two individuals can now throw their lot in and join forces with the same guys who took down c.. well you all know what happened on September 11, 2001, is a bit of a shock, and a surprise to me. But not totally.

I and Maciamo no doubt have similar views on Christianity and perhaps some other topics. However, a big part of me is animal rights and he does not share that. In fact, he doesn`t even share my stance on vegetarianism and if you take the time to look, you will see on that issue we seem to be on seperate ends of the spectrum (although I hope he has moved a little on it with some more thought on the issue).



Anything for a good thread, eh?
BTW | I am not Jewish- nor is anybody in my family,

Irrelevant. And, what if I told you I was from a Jewish family? Would it make any bearing on what either of us say? I don`t think it would. I would you think so?

nurizeko
04-07-06, 13:50
I think the solution is in both sides living together, as far off and desperate as it is.
I do agree the anti-semitism card is played far too often when anyone dares speak ill of Israeli violations of the Palestinians rights, and general geneva conventions, I'm almost sick at how the west seems unwilling or incapable through fear of being labelled an anti-semite to do anything against israel when it does wrong.
Israel is a first world democratic wealthy country, i dont think it should be held to other standards just because its populated by those who follow the Jewish faith.
It isnt anti-semitism to recognise some people behaving like the war-criminals that persicuted their ancestors.
I've had my issues with SVF and Maciamo, enough that people had spitted eternal contempt for the other for less, but I agree in the basic position Israel shouldnt be exempt from common human decency and law and respect for a peoples human rights.
Sensuikan, i think your response was not only as dis-preportionate as the Israeli response to one soldiers kidnapping, it was totaly and utterly fanatical ranting, forgive me for saying but they have not said anything remotely racist, facist, or wrong.
Is it now a crime to recognise another crime and say it?.
I think everyone appriciates you feel so strongly for the Jewish peoples and taking a stand against facism, but you should recognise that it isnt facist to recognise facist behaviours in another people, if they have been subject to such criminal behaviour in the past or not.
Its even sadder for me personally that the decendants of a people persicuted in such a fashion are visitting it upon another.
I will always recognise the Israeli's right to existance, for good or bad, its there to stay, but I will always recognise the Palestinians right to exist to, if Israel was any sort of modern enlightened nation it would withdraw to the proper borders, build a huge mile high titanium 500 metre thick wall around itself for all I care, but Israel needs to seperate itself from the palestinians, leave them their land and let them live.
If they cant get along then they should ignore each other, thats the usual awnser to arguments.
The current Israeli behaviour only tars its image in the eyes of history.
My 2 cents
And still not an anti-semite, thankyou very much.


EDIT:SVF PMed me warning me off and ****-stirring again, and quite frankly, I've had enough of this ****, he was banned for it, but instead of letting things slide and starting afresh here he goes throwing around inflamatory PM's yet again trying to goad people, I mean, ****! cant you switch off for 5 minutes SVF and just allow a reasonable and un-argumentative post, could you not have just taken my post at face value and appriciate and accepted the contribution as it was and leave it like that? I was ******* agreeing with you for **** sake...

Ugh...I'm deleting my Eupedia forum membership, I really cannot be ****** getting drawn into yet another ****-stir, it nearly got a good few folk banned last time and nearly drove more away from Jref....so you win SVF, because I was the bigger man who was willing to forget the past and just contribute to a discussion forum, frankly, I'm starting to wonder why you were allowed back on.

So SVF, thankyou for doing the backseat moderating, taking Mac's job, if he had an issue he woulda PMed and reminded.

I'm sorry Maciamo, you have been a good admin, but its apparently clear that its impossible to co-exist with SVF because he is never going to allow that.

Best of luck and hope Eupedia thrives.

- Nuri