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Maciamo
12-10-06, 09:46
BBC News : Europe diary: German might (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6040086.stm)


Ever since 1945, the swastika has been banned in Germany. Even on children's model aeroplanes. Last week a court in Stuttgart went a stage further. A man was fined more than 7,000 euros for selling anti-Nazi badges that showed a swastika with a line through it, as in a traffic sign.

He is going to appeal and the government is considering whether to amend the law. The Greens hope to provoke a debate but some Germans strongly argue that the symbol is still too uncomfortable to be seen, whatever the meaning or context.

This clearly demonstrate how emotions can take over reason. I have disappointed in the German government, given the Germans' reputation for "cold logic". It is all the more aberrant that the swastika is a major Hindu and Buddhist, Jainist and neo-pagan symbol, signifying good fortune. Contrarily to what some think, a Hindu/Buddhist swastika (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika) can either be clockwise (like the Nazi version) or anti-clockwise.

If that is what modern Germany has become, then it is no wonder that the country's economy is shuffling its feet. When are the Germans going to let their sense of guilt go away ? It's been 60 years since the end of the war, and anybody old enough to have been in charge of the Holocaust is either dead or over 80 years old. Young people should move forward. They haven't experienced the war personally and thus shouldn't feel more uncomfortable at the sight of a swastika than at that of a Jewish star, Christian cross or Muslim crescent. If they want to ban the swastika, they should ban all other religious symbols then. However, if the law is as rigid as it is now for the swastika, this could eventually result in banning croissants from bakeries ! Germany wake up !

Kinsao
12-10-06, 12:20
I seem to remember an issue like this cropping up in UK news sometime last year. (:? *memory is bad* ><) It's crazy. In my city there are gazillions of temples with the swastika on. :souka:

ricecake
12-10-06, 12:47
I've seen photos of Japanese cosplay in Nazi uniform.

Maciamo
12-10-06, 14:14
I've seen photos of Japanese cosplay in Nazi uniform.

Exactly. Even Prince Harrold of Britain wore a Nazi uniform at a party.

Minty
13-10-06, 00:03
Exactly. Even Prince Harrold of Britain wore a Nazi uniform at a party.

And he was made to appolgize!

Maciamo
13-10-06, 09:01
And he was made to appolgize!
Yes, because he is a royal prince and the media are always happy to reveal everything about their private life, and it could further tarnish the reputation of the Royal family amongstthe most traditional Britons. I don't think his family would have cared so much. I see them as rather permissive when it comes to "entertainment".

cursore
16-10-06, 15:09
When are the Germans going to let their sense of guilt go away ?

Better keep sense of guilt where it is...

Maciamo
16-10-06, 15:12
Better keep sense of guilt where it is...

Why ? Germans born after WWII are no more guilty of the Holocaust than you, me or the Jews themselves.

Maciamo
01-01-08, 15:26
In the same line of irrational sense of culpability/shame induced by the Nazi regime, the BBC reported (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7166159.stm) that "German restaurants and pubs have strongly resisted the bans, not only because of the potential loss of income but partly because of an earlier crackdown on smoking initiated by Adolf Hitler's Nazi regime."

In other words, they prefer to keep smoking in public places and cause cancer to people around them just because not doing so would seem a Nazi-like behaviour. :rolleyes: With that kind of reasoning, over time you can make more damages than the Nazis ever did - although indirectly.

Why not encourage people to go binge-drinking and take drugs because Hitler was against that ? What's a nice conception of ethics ! My enemy cares about his health, so let's do the opposite ! It's so ridiculous that I find it more shameful to be a partisan of such logic than to wear a tshirt with a swastika in public.

Starship
01-01-08, 16:14
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/crossing_continents/7094959.stm

Have a look at this report on the BBC about the rise of Neo Nazi's in disillusioned East Germany, I actually thought this might be a good thread on its own but you seem to have started it off yourself only over symbols.

The message these crowd are peddling hasn't changed, so what has a more prosperous Germany a more stable Europe? No body listened the first time around either not in the swinging 20's but the depression of the late 20's early 30's changed all that.

But we are safe aren't we? no economic crash on its way, oil won't hit 200 dollars a barrel will it, but what could make the new old message of the Nazi palatable to a modern fortress Europe.

Maciamo
01-01-08, 20:43
But we are safe aren't we? no economic crash on its way, oil won't hit 200 dollars a barrel will it, but what could make the new old message of the Nazi palatable to a modern fortress Europe.

There is absolutely no risk of seeing Nazism rise again in Germany any time soon. If similar regime should appear again, it will be in countries that have not learned their lesson from WWII or aren't democratic enough (so most probably not in the EU). Extremism is now in vogue in Muslim countries, not in Western ones.

Starship
01-01-08, 21:34
I think for Nazism to prosper it needs certain guaranteed freedoms - speech, association and a limp wrist-ed judiciary, the type of things democracies provide. I don't know of many Muslim democracies, they seem to have plenty of dictatorships of their own.

The fact that there are neo Nazi groups in Germany today seems amazing to me and other countries like Russia seem to be taking a swing to the right as well.

The question on my mind is what are the conditions "economic, political or even demographic" that could promote this extremism once again.

Maciamo
01-01-08, 23:23
I think for Nazism to prosper it needs certain guaranteed freedoms - speech, association and a limp wrist-ed judiciary, the type of things democracies provide. I don't know of many Muslim democracies, they seem to have plenty of dictatorships of their own.

Anything can be achieved through democracy, as long as the people are willing to support it. Now that the European population is better educated and well aware of the dangers of extremism, I don't see how they would elect someone like Hitler again.

Democarcy is certainly no prerequisite to a fascist regime. Some dictators are brought to power by democratic elections then change the rules to stay in power (they usually need to be very popular to be able to do so), or their make a coup.

In modern Europe, I just can't imagine how a coup would succeed nowadays. Nobody would support it. A person who lacks the support of the population, or the most powerful and influential people in the country, can never remain in power.

What is more, with the EU, member states can seriously influence and keep at check the politics of any other member state. If a coup were to happen in one of the 27 EU states, the other would condemn it, the new government would end up being ignored internationally, and have no power.

In addition, other EU states could send troops or police forces to bring back order to a fellow state in danger.

Extremist dictatorship tend to happen countries where too much power is concentrated in a single central government with too little power checks.

Germany, Italy and Japan had just been unified in the late 19th century, and the first thing the new centralised government did to preserve the national unity was to launch a propaganda through the media and education to foster nationalism. Adults in the 1930's were only the children who grew up in such an environment, brainwashed since birth by nationalistic ideals. This is what causes fascist regimes to be elected by the people.



The fact that there are neo Nazi groups in Germany today seems amazing to me and other countries like Russia seem to be taking a swing to the right as well.

They are just a minority. We live in a hugely diverse society, where everybody is free to think and believe what they want. Personally there are many more things that seem amazing to me than just the existence of Neo-Nazis in East Germany or elsewhere.

Starship
02-01-08, 15:48
Well you are right of course other European countries would and do act against other members when they step to far out of line, Haiders Freedom Party in Austria back in 2000 springs to mind. And even the Swiss Peoples Party was criticized by the UN for their recent election campaign being deemed to racist. As things stand no extremist's would have a wide base of support but what could change that?

I heard it somewhere and I don't know who came up with it but it goes along the lines "every civilization is only 3 square meals away from anarchy" or something like that. Now suppose the oil ran out rather abruptly, there are alternative fuel supplies, gas, coal, nuclear, wind, solar, wave, rape seed oil so on but if there was a painfully long gap between demand and supply and the lights in peoples fridges across Europe started to go out how quickly could these minorities become popular?

This is merely an exercise in imaginative thinking or playing the devils advocate not an attempt at soothsaying.

Maciamo
02-01-08, 17:31
I heard it somewhere and I don't know who came up with it but it goes along the lines "every civilization is only 3 square meals away from anarchy" or something like that.

My understanding of the word civilisation is something much broader than countries and cultures. We talk about European or Western civilisation, not Belgian or Irish civillisation. In this regard, how could any civilisation be close to anarchy ?


Now suppose the oil ran out rather abruptly, there are alternative fuel supplies, gas, coal, nuclear, wind, solar, wave, rape seed oil so on but if there was a painfully long gap between demand and supply and the lights in peoples fridges across Europe started to go out how quickly could these minorities become popular?

Stocks of petrol worldwide are more carefully checked than almost anything else. Governments would rather see riots in their streets than fear to run out of oil.

Mycernius
02-01-08, 19:42
I wonder if Mel Brooks' musical The Producers is touring in Germany? How do the laws deal with that show?

Starship
02-01-08, 22:28
O yes lets trust our Governments to tell us the truth, the same ones who sent their boys and girls off to look for WMD in an other peoples country, sorry this argument leaves me distinctly cold.

I think the author of the quote I mentioned was perhaps taking a very narrow interpretation of civilization and simply referred to lawful government, law and order, not throwing your neighbour out the window of a 4th story building type of thing. I still can't find the author of the quote.

Elizabeth van Kampen
03-01-08, 15:22
I see the Germans of today as "one of us".
Together with Germany we are living in the European Union.

There are also neo-nazis in the Netherlands, but also in the U.S. and in several Latin-America countries. I have Chilean friends and the have told me that there more neo-nazis in their country than over here in the Netherlands and more fanatic too.

Maciamo
03-01-08, 16:06
I have Chilean friends and the have told me that there more neo-nazis in their country than over here in the Netherlands and more fanatic too.

Ah ! That's what I meant when I said that fascism was more likely to develop in countries that haven't experienced directly WWII.

Starship
03-01-08, 16:20
I watched a programme last night that claimed the next big crisis facing humanity will not be oil but water. By 2025 1 third of the worlds population will be living in countries with insufficient fresh water supplies to support them. That would suggest a future of large scale migration, and Europe will certainly have to take its share, if our Governments don't plan for the future now then quiet possibly small scale neo Nazi groups of today will reap the reward of general unrest later.

Maciamo
03-01-08, 22:43
I watched a programme last night that claimed the next big crisis facing humanity will not be oil but water. By 2025 1 third of the worlds population will be living in countries with insufficient fresh water supplies to support them. That would suggest a future of large scale migration, and Europe will certainly have to take its share, if our Governments don't plan for the future now then quiet possibly small scale neo Nazi groups of today will reap the reward of general unrest later.

That's right. Most of the populations affected will be those in arid, underdeveloped and overpopulated regions, that is to say most of Africa and probably also the Middle East and parts of India. Possibly Mexico as well. Over one third of the world population lives in those regions.

Robespierre7
09-01-08, 18:15
I share the Starship’s opinions. The great climate change and the poverty will provoke large scales migration. The pressure over the borders could encourage population to adopt a xenophobic behaviour against the migrants already in Europe.

Starship
14-01-08, 18:21
I know the Spanish Government has requested more boats from their EU partners to patrol off the Canary islands, I believe some Governments were considering setting up points of first contact in African countries where asylum seekers would have their applications processed before they set foot on EU territory and came under EU laws. I have also read where the Austrian Government is unhappy with the Polish rather porous borders.

I have watched programmes and read articles about migrants and the one thing that constantly comes through is their sheer determination to make it to Europe as they have nothing to go back to. When these people are caught and deported to the last country they traveled through to get into the EU they inevitably retry another route in.

Is there any EU think thank focusing on the challenges facing the whole community with regard to migration or is it simply being left to individual countries.

Starship
25-01-08, 18:15
UN calls water top priority

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080125/ap_on_re_eu/world_forum_water_scarcity;_ylt=AlFHktVue4El5fRf4s VfjFt0bBAF

Tomenable
01-03-16, 14:03
In Slavic Paganism, various forms of Swastika also existed - the most common one was Kolovrat:

http://www.slavorum.org/history-and-meaning-of-slavic-swastika-kolovrat/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIZmCi-HgSo

Here a modified Russian motorcycle with Slavonic Kolovrats instead of standard wheels: :smile:

http://s56.radikal.ru/i151/1504/70/058cc3240cd4.jpg

-RIFFIAN-
02-03-16, 02:07
''German ban on anti-nazi signs''


Very interesting topic,Recently Germany has also given a rose on the personal book of hitler,''mein kampf'',perhaps merkel wants to resurrect the great national socialism empire? :thinking::laughing:

http://time.com/4235028/mein-kampf-best-seller-hitler/

Or is the hatred that have begun to feel the Germans toward immigrants, it seems that the Germans have already missed to hate, for the last 70 years the Germans have never hated anyone from heart,a real hate,like the hate of the Jews and Russians in world war II :grin:

bicicleur
03-03-16, 11:55
''German ban on anti-nazi signs''


Very interesting topic,Recently Germany has also given a rose on the personal book of hitler,''mein kampf'',perhaps merkel wants to resurrect the great national socialism empire? :thinking::laughing:

http://time.com/4235028/mein-kampf-best-seller-hitler/

Or is the hatred that have begun to feel the Germans toward immigrants, it seems that the Germans have already missed to hate, for the last 70 years the Germans have never hated anyone from heart,a real hate,like the hate of the Jews and Russians in world war II :grin:

Mein Kampf was never forbidden by law in Germany, but the copyright was in hands of a government who didn't allow distribution.
Now copyright has expired.
If you want to forbid Mein Kampf you should also forbid the Bible and the Quran, there are more violence and hatred in there then in Mein Kampf.