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Mycernius
05-10-07, 22:43
I heard about this one the News today
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7028639.stm
It seems that the UK, or rather people in the UK want to go down the problems that teaching creationism causes in the US. Not only from Christians, but new Muslims to the country are starting to demand that it be taught in schools along with evolution. It bloody annoys me. Yes it should be taught, but in the right subject area, religion, not in science, Creationism is not scientific in any shape or form. It is theology and faith, pure and simple. It relies on a book written by religious zealots from various cultures with no understanding of how the world and universe really work who have been dead for the past 1000 years. It is like saying Peter Pan is fact. Any teacher who seriusly considers teaching this in science should be sacked as being irresponsible. If they want to teach their version of creation then they should be fair and let Scientologists teach their beliefs, along with Buddhists, Shinto, Jains and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I bet they would change their tune if little Mohammad or Joe came home from school spouting L.Ron Hubbards view of the world.

Maciamo
06-10-07, 14:00
I heartily agree with you. Except that I don't think that religion classes have a place in compulsory education at all. That should be replaced with philosophy classes, which serves the same need to understand the world we live in and teach morals, but in a more rational way.

Mycernius
06-10-07, 14:35
More of a combination of both. I don't know if RE (Religious Education) classes are any different in Beligium, but in the UK you are taught not only about the countries dominant religion, but other relgions as well. Along with impact on society, customs, views on the world. I don't think you can leave such lessons out of education. If you do you could end up with children being taught their religion by their parents. This usually ends up with the we are right, everyone else in wrong attitude and more intolerance. At least an education away from the parents will give the child a more balanced and wider view of religion outside their own.

PiotrSkut
07-10-07, 03:38
This usually ends up with the we are right, everyone else in wrong attitude and more intolerance.

Doesn't almost everyone have that viewpoint on some level or another anyway? Personally, I believe this modern "enlightened" philosophy that everyone's viewpoint is equally good and deserving of respect is a load of bs.

Maciamo
07-10-07, 11:49
More of a combination of both. I don't know if RE (Religious Education) classes are any different in Beligium, but in the UK you are taught not only about the countries dominant religion, but other relgions as well.

Definitely not. In Belgium you are taught about Roman Catholicism in RE. They might also warn you against sects (even Protestant ones, not just Scientology !), but don't expect to be taught about other religions in a fair and neutral way. Maybe that's why they opened a new private Muslim school in Brussels this year. Eventhough it is not state-subsidised and most Muslims in Belgium are poor, it has attracted about 1000 paying students.

Officially, according to the constitution, religion cannot be force-taught on anybody in Belgium. But well, officially there is no prostitution in Japan, and China is a communist country ! :rolleyes:

Maciamo
07-10-07, 11:52
Doesn't almost everyone have that viewpoint on some level or another anyway? Personally, I believe this modern "enlightened" philosophy that everyone's viewpoint is equally good and deserving of respect is a load of bs.

I agree. If something is against science and logic, there is virtually no chance for it being right.

Mycernius
08-10-07, 18:03
Just an addition to these creationists, someone posted this link on Atheist Network:
http://assembly.coe.int/Main.asp?link=/Documents/AdoptedText/ta07/ERES1580.htm
The EU doing something good.

Barros Serrano
14-07-09, 14:33
In the USA, this problem goes even beyond Creationism. Christian fundamentalists affect education in many ways. One of the most pernicious is in their influence on textbook publishers. Since they want to produce a uniform text for the entire country, they have to make them acceptable to school boards in areas (i.e., Bible belt) where fundies have power on school boards and even at the state level in the education bureaucracy.

They object not only to evolution, but to portrayals of other cultures as valid, having alternative views of reality which do not agree with Christianity. This becomes nationalist and racist, as the fundies apparently believe that Europe and therefore the USA are superior for being Christian, and that other societies are fundamentally flawed by not being so.

What is the purpose of education? To the capitalist, it is to produce compliant yet competent workers. To those who wish to impose their religion on everyone in society, it is a means of reinforcing the status quo as they see it.

Those of us with a higher vision are lost in the shuffle.

Maciamo
15-07-09, 10:18
What is the purpose of education? To the capitalist, it is to produce compliant yet competent workers.

That's exactly what it is. From my experience schools and universities just train people to be obedient, follow rules, avoid criticising authority, work hard, do what you are told and expect it to be that way all your life. In my schooling years everybody knew that teachers had an surprisingly big power to change any student's results on a purely subjective basis (just because they didn't like someone).

Most of the important year-end exams were oral from high school, so that we could pretty much guess the score anyone in the class would get based on how well they got along with a particular teacher (pretty girls wearing mini-skirts with some male teachers also scored higher than expected).

At written tests, some teachers blatantly found mistakes were there were none, so that students had better ask to see their corrected copies, re-check everything carefully, then go complain to the school director. It has happened a few times to me as well. I once got my marks changed from E+ to A-. It was a language test and the teacher had underlined passages that were perfectly correct just because she had something against me (looking back, it is somewhat understandable as I liked to openly correct her mistakes in front of the class :wary2: ). Compulsory education does not teach you to be right, it teaches you to do as you are told.

I am an autodidact. I learnt most of what I know by myself, before or after university. What I didn't already know in university classes was often the professor's own point of view, with which I did not always agree. But to pass exams you had to tell the professor what he wanted to hear, not just objective facts and even less your own point of view (well, some were more open-minded than others, but they were exceptions). So I couldn't agree more with you, Barros Serrano, when you say that the education system's main reason of existence is to produce compliant yet competent workers.

Miss Marple's nephew
15-07-09, 18:57
Last year Slovakia (a catholic country) was experiencing a similar dilema. Catechism was to be reinstated into the school system. So non-catholic primary schools students had to either attend these classes or chose workshop. If a Jew or protestant (for example) wanted to study his/her religion he had to take private lessons "after school" whereas the catholics got their religion baked in.

Chris
15-07-09, 19:22
The whole concept flies in the face of progress. What next? Trial by ordeal and divine intervention? No joke - I'll bet some seriously want it back...

Marianne
15-07-09, 21:31
In Greece the religion class is compulsory, from the 4th grade of elementary school till the last grade of highschool. The class mainly focuses on orthodox christians but all other major religions are also taught. If parents don't want their kids to attend the class they need to sign a form but I never had a classmate who wasn't attending it.
It is taught in classrooms by teachers (not priests) who have a degree in "Philosophy and Religion" major and there is no going to the church as it is in USA (from what I've seen in movies!)

Philosophy class is also compulsory, but it starts at later grades from the last grades of middle school till last grade of high school.

Biology is compulsory from the first grade of middle school till last grade of highschool.

For people who want there are advanced biology and advanced philosophy classes and people who attend those still have to attend the compulsory philosophy and biology classes :grin:.

Miss Marple's nephew
15-07-09, 21:32
The whole concept flies in the face of progress. What next? Trial by ordeal and divine intervention? No joke - I'll bet some seriously want it back...
"divine intervention"? How could it be "brought back"? You´d have to hold a seance (oh sorry, prayer) to even get the divine´s attention let alone to actually intervene. :rolleyes2:

Miss Marple's nephew
15-07-09, 21:40
In Greece the religion class is compulsory, from the 4th grade of elementary school till the last grade of highschool. The class mainly focuses on orthodox christians but all other major religions are also taught....
In Sweden religion is also cumpulsory but the classes focus on all of the major religions in equal measure. Most Arabs (and Somalis, I think) don´t bother to attend and it seems that they´re given immunity in the same way that consientious objectors are exempted from military service.

Cambrius (The Red)
15-07-09, 23:16
Critical thinking is at a premium in today's society, I'm afraid. Our situation has devolved into something rather frightening.

Miss Marple's nephew
16-07-09, 08:08
Critical thinking is at a premium in today's society, I'm afraid. Our situation has devolved into something rather frightening.
With regards to religious conviction or secular tolerance?

kaid
22-07-09, 01:05
I'm new in this forums
I'm from the Arabian Gulf
My name is kaid milad
I believe that equality between religions
Gives good morals
I believe this
Possible I'm wrong

Chris
22-07-09, 18:58
"divine intervention"? How could it be "brought back"? You´d have to hold a seance (oh sorry, prayer) to even get the divine´s attention let alone to actually intervene. :rolleyes2:

I seem to recall that a certain president said in effect that God told him to invade Iraq. 'Divine Intervention' is here, and the lunatics are running the asylum...

Miss Marple's nephew
22-07-09, 19:18
I seem to recall that a certain president said in effect that God told him to invade Iraq. 'Divine Intervention' is here, and the lunatics are running the asylum...
Ah, yes, I forgot about him. But really ... "lunatic" ... you´re being much too kind.

Cambrius (The Red)
22-07-09, 20:05
Ah, yes, I forgot about him. But really ... "lunatic" ... you´re being much too kind.
Well, you know, old 'W" lost the few brain cells he had from heavy drinking and cocaine abuse. Of course he was hearing messages from God... :laughing:

Miss Marple's nephew
22-07-09, 21:00
" .... and gosh, gee whiz, when God said, ´snort a fistful you lunatic!´, I knew he was talkin´ ta me." :shocked:

javonoL21
30-07-09, 01:52
Some of the most influential men in modern science where believers in God and that fact should be sold to the kids in the classrooms so they don't grow up thinking there is a division between Science and Religion, and teach them to create hatred where none existed previously.

Maciamo
30-07-09, 11:18
Some of the most influential men in modern science where believers in God.

Like who ? By modern, do you mean still alive ?

javonoL21
30-07-09, 14:43
Like who ? By modern, do you mean still alive ?

I was referring to Morse, Edison and Newton who are thee most influential scientists of the modern world, if these three men and their works where removed from the world we would be living in a very different world!

Maciamo
31-07-09, 09:52
I was referring to Morse, Edison and Newton who are thee most influential scientists of the modern world, if these three men and their works where removed from the world we would be living in a very different world!

These aren't modern scientists. Morse and Edison weren't even really scientists, but rather inventors. Newton died almost 300 years ago, at a time when almost everyone in Europe was deeply Christian !

Even people who died 100 years ago could not have known of modern neuroscience, biochemistry or genetics (the proof of evolution), which all destroy all plausibility of the traditional arguments brought forth by religions. To believe in god you need to believe in the existence of a soul, and I don't see how you can reconcile that with genetics and neuropsychology.

javonoL21
31-07-09, 13:08
These aren't modern scientists. Morse and Edison weren't even really scientists, but rather inventors. Newton died almost 300 years ago, at a time when almost everyone in Europe was deeply Christian !

Even people who died 100 years ago could not have known of modern neuroscience, biochemistry or genetics (the proof of evolution), which all destroy all plausibility of the traditional arguments brought forth by religions. To believe in god you need to believe in the existence of a soul, and I don't see how you can reconcile that with genetics and neuropsychology.

:laughing: I've had enough of this forum, this is not a rational place, I can only say that the posts I've read on this site bring about a state of ignorance and bring division and enmity where none existed or needs to.

Mycernius
31-07-09, 17:53
Some of the most influential men in modern science where believers in God and that fact should be sold to the kids in the classrooms so they don't grow up thinking there is a division between Science and Religion, and teach them to create hatred where none existed previously.
And? Just because a scientist believes in god doesn't mean that one actually exists. God should stay out of science and should be left in RE lessons.
Reality should be sold to children, not the superstitions of a bronze age book written by goat herders, or any other fantasy sky daddy.
It isn't science that creates the division, it is faith blind fundies that purposely distort science to try and show that their particular mythology is real. Science deals with facts, not fantasy.



:laughing: I've had enough of this forum, this is not a rational place, I can only say that the posts I've read on this site bring about a state of ignorance and bring division and enmity where none existed or needs to.
Typical response of a faith head. When faced with rational thought you all bugger off. Ignorance is creationism/Intelligent design or whatever the hell you want to call it. Do not drag science down to that level.