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Maciamo
07-02-08, 14:18
Rivers are some of the oldest geographic names, simply because they predate any human settlement, and were more important to our prehistoric ancestors (for drinking water, transport, washing...) than mountains. The origin of many rivers' name is lost in the depth of time. We nevertheless know the name (or one of the names) most of them had during the Iron Age, Bronze Age and sometimes even before.

Celtic names

- Danube (2,860 km) : from Celtic Dānu, meaning "to flow" (same origin for the Rivers Don, Dnieper and Dniester in Russia).

- Dordogne (490 km) : from the pre-Celtic Durānius, derived from the Proto-Indo-European root dur- or dor-, and the suffix -onna, which means "source, river".

- Douro (897 km) : probably from the Celtic root is *dubro- ("water"), Latinised as Durius.

- Loire (1,091 km) : from Celtic Liga, which means "silt, sediment, deposit, alluvium". Adapated into Latin as Liger.

- Main (524 km) : from Celtic Moin or Mogin (after the god Mogon). Latinised as Moenus.

- Meuse (925 km) : from Mosa (also in Latin), the name of a Celtic deity.

- Neckar (367 km) : from Celtic root Nik-, meaning "wild water" or "wild fellow", evolving into Nikros, Nicarus and Neccarus.

- Rhône (813 km) : from the Celtic Rodo or Roto, literally "that which rolls", or "that which runs". Adapted by the Greeks into Rhodanos, then by the Romans into Rhodanus.

- Seine (776 km) : from Sicauna, made up of Celtic sakw, which means "sacred" and from the Pre-Indo-European suffix -onna which means "source, river".

- Thames (346 km) : from the Celtic Tamēssa, probably meaning "dark". Rendered in Latin as Tamesis and in Middle English as Temese.

- Trent (298 km) : from the Celtic words tros ("over") and hynt ("way"), possibly meaning "strongly flooding".

Germanic names

- Elbe (1,091 km) : from the Old Germanic Albia, meaning "river".

- IJssel (125 km) : from the Germanic i sala, meaning "dark water".

- Rhine (1,320 km) : from Middle High German Rin, from the Proto-Indo-European root *reie- ("to flow, run").

- Scheldt (350 km) : from the Old Germanic word for "thin" or "shallow" (corresponding to Old English sceald, Low German schol, Frisian skol, and Swedish skäll).

- Weser (452 km) : from Wisara (or Wisura, Wisera, Wisora), probably meaning "meadow water", probably from the Indo-European root *ueis/*uis ("to flow").

Latin names

- Ebro (910 km) : from Latin Iber, probably referring to Iberia.

- Moselle (545 km) : from the Latin Mosella ("Little Meuse").

- Po (652 km) : from Latin Padus, related to the wild pine trees in valley. The former Greek name was Eridanus, and the Ligurian name was Bodincus, meaning "river without bottom" or "deep river".

- Tagus (1,038 km) : from Latin taliāre, meaning "to cut (though)".


Other roots

- Garonne (575 km) : from the Aquitanian/Old Basque root *kʰarr-, meaning "rock", and a Pre-Indo-European suffix -unn-, -onna which means "source, river".

- Guadalquivir (657 km) : from the Arabic al-wadi al-Kabir, meaning the "great river".

- Oder (866 km) : from proto-Indo-European Adra, probably meaning "water vein".

- Severn (354 km) : from Hafren (Latinised as Sabrina), name of a pre-Celtic princess or nymph drown in the river.

- Tiber (406 km) : from the Estruscan or Italic word Tibur, possibly related to the Celtic root-word dubr, "water".

Illyrian Princess
22-06-08, 21:51
wow, interesting! :)

iann_allein
08-01-10, 01:13
did you make an error ?


Celtic names

- Danube (2,860 km) : from Celtic Dānu, meaning "to flow" (same origin for the Rivers Don, Dnieper and Dniester in Russia).


From wiki:
During the times of the old Scythians it was known in Greek as the Tanaïs, and has been a major trading route ever since.
Tanais appears in ancient Greek sources as the name of the river and of a city on it, situated in the Maeotian marshes. The name derives however from Scythian (East Iranian) Dānu "river", akin to Ossetic don "river", and Pashto dand (ډنډ) or dun (depending on dialect) "pond, lake".
the name is (East Iranian) .

iann_allein
08-01-10, 01:20
The name Dnieper is derived from Sarmatian Dānu apara "the river on the far side"

Wilhelm
08-01-10, 01:45
EBRO is NOT LATIN. It is pre-roman. It is discussed between the Basque "Ibar" which means "River", or the Greek "Ebros" which means "wide". But not Latin.
The basque word ibai (ibáy; "river") converts to the word ibar (ibár; "vega") and this roots are found in different rivers of Europe.
In Serbia we found the river Ibar.
In Hessen the river Ibra. In southern Germany two rivers Ebrach , and many rivers Eberbäche. Ebesberg in the Alps. In Austria the river Ybbs. In Francia we find Ivergny, Iverny, Yvré-l'évêque, Ébréon, Évrune, Ebersheim, Yvry-en-montagne in the Basque Country Ibarra, Ibarrola, Ibarrekolanda, Ibardin, Aranibar. And obviously the river Ebro which comes from the prerroman Iber , that eventually became the name of the Iberians and the Peninsula

Marianne
08-01-10, 03:32
Actually we also have a river in Greece called Ebros (Έβρος) at the North
It took its name after the Prince Hebrus of the area and as you said it means wide.

http://www.greeceindex.com/About_Greece/Greece_Geography_Rivers_Evros.html

Maciamo
08-01-10, 12:40
EBRO is NOT LATIN. It is pre-roman. It is discussed between the Basque "Ibar" which means "River", or the Greek "Ebros" which means "wide". But not Latin.
The basque word ibai (ibáy; "river") converts to the word ibar (ibár; "vega") and this roots are found in different rivers of Europe.
In Serbia we found the river Ibar.
In Hessen the river Ibra. In southern Germany two rivers Ebrach , and many rivers Eberbäche. Ebesberg in the Alps. In Austria the river Ybbs. In Francia we find Ivergny, Iverny, Yvré-l'évêque, Ébréon, Évrune, Ebersheim, Yvry-en-montagne in the Basque Country Ibarra, Ibarrola, Ibarrekolanda, Ibardin, Aranibar. And obviously the river Ebro which comes from the prerroman Iber , that eventually became the name of the Iberians and the Peninsula

Thanks for the feedback. I think you are right, "Ebro" probably comes from Basque "Ibar", and could ultimately be related to many pre-Indo-European languages in Europe. The question is : Is Basque mostly a Cro-Magnon-descended language (hg I) or a Neolithic language from the Near East or North Africa (related to the La Almagra Pottery) ? If "Ibar" also shows up in Greece, Serbia, Austria and South Germany, it seems more likely to be of Near Eastern origin.

The Basque may belong to Y-haplogroup R1b, but Prehistoric Basques (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/03/prehistoric-basques-were-closer-to.html) had a lot of mt-haplogroups J, T and K, which are thought to have been the main maternal lineages of Near-Eastern farmers.

^ lynx ^
08-01-10, 18:16
Actually we also have a river in Greece called Ebros (Έβρος) at the North
It took its name after the Prince Hebrus of the area and as you said it means wide.

http://www.greeceindex.com/About_Greece/Greece_Geography_Rivers_Evros.html


Interesting info, thanks Marianne.

^ lynx ^
08-01-10, 20:21
Celtic names


- Douro (897 km) : probably from the Celtic root is *dubro- ("water"), Latinised as Durius.

Interesting, didn't know about this one.

let`s talk
09-01-10, 18:32
Volga is from Mari, means "bright".

Maciamo
09-01-10, 19:46
did you make an error ?



From wiki:
During the times of the old Scythians it was known in Greek as the Tanaïs, and has been a major trading route ever since.
Tanais appears in ancient Greek sources as the name of the river and of a city on it, situated in the Maeotian marshes. The name derives however from Scythian (East Iranian) Dānu "river", akin to Ossetic don "river", and Pashto dand (ډنډ) or dun (depending on dialect) "pond, lake".
the name is (East Iranian) .

Scythian and Celtic might both have had the same word for river. Both are Indo-European languages. Why would the Scythians have named the Danube when they never lived there ?

Haganus
10-01-10, 17:28
Many thanks for these interesting messages!
Who did hear about Krahe's theory "Alt Europa (ancient Europe)?
According to him a lot of river names in Europe (Italy, Francy, Germany,
Scandinavia) have arisen about 2000 BC. Sre google "Krahe".

For example:it is not certain if the name of river IJssel is germanic.
See the name Weichsel, Wisla, Isla, perhaps an old-european name.
And some onomotologists thought that the name of the German river
Weser (Visurgis in Latin) was celtic or old-european.

But I believe that the name of the river Schelde is purely germanic.
Is it a prove the Germanic tribes have lived in Belgium and north of
France from 500 BC?

Heber
26-01-10, 21:43
Shannon, the longest river in the British Isles.

The origin of the name is presumably that of the name of the Goddess associated with the river, "Sionna". Celtic in origin.

zvira
29-01-10, 14:54
In Balkans, the origins are either Slavic or Roman

Eireannach
29-01-10, 17:02
Shannon, the longest river in the British Isles.


.....Sigh.:disappointed:

interest
28-04-10, 23:29
I remember reading about the origins of the Celts in an Irish book. It was referring to 3 "D" rivers that the auther was suggesting linked them to Danube, Don, and Dan, or somthing. Do you know which these are and what their Celtic names were, and if they represented Gods or what?

Brennus
30-04-10, 04:27
Other roots

Severn (354 km) : from Hafren (Latinised as Sabrina), name of a pre-Celtic princess or nymph drown in the river.



Hafren is the Welsh for the Severn from the Brittonic Sabrina, it’s not Latin.

Maciamo
30-04-10, 11:41
Hafren is the Welsh for the Severn from the Brittonic Sabrina, it’s not Latin.

That's what I wrote.

Brennus
30-04-10, 14:32
That's what I wrote.

I misread your post, sorry!

crudshoveller
10-03-11, 16:12
I see no British Isles pre-Celtic name survivals mentioned. Have none been identified?

Cip
01-09-16, 14:48
Hi Maciamo!
I believe basque must be linked with the Cro-Magnon language (Hg I), not with the Neolithic non-european population. I found some fossil words in romanian that are not linked with i-e or asian languages, but has connections with basque.
One very important word is the word for watter in Basque -URA that formed a lot of related word in basque: eURi - rain, elURRa - snow, itURRia-spring, lURRun-steam etc. Also in romanian we have a lot of words related with water that contain the stem UR. I personally believe that it was a word for water of onomatopoeic origin from very old Hg I population (pre-indo-european, pre-neolitic farmers). I also believe that the original form was something like "URR" and mimic the sound of the water flowing with great speed (maybe in a period when ice was melting). At some point the second R shifted into L. The same cognat has given in the german languages (v.sax) hurlen -throwing with force, (eng.) to hurl - throw with great force, to move with speed, (n.g.j) hurreln - to throw. In romanian language we have a lot of words related to water that are formed from original URR and from pregermanic URL. In the oficial romanian dictionary for most of them it is written "unknown origin" Ex: URLoi - pipe, tube; țurțur - icicle, for some of them, they try reconstructing possible latin words. Ex: lătURA - dirty water, food scraps soaked in water as food for pigs - from latin ''lavare'' and presumed *lavaturae, ciutURA - bucket for water from latin "situta"(hard to believe), for others they try explain by slavonic. Ex: izVOR - water spring. slavs seem to have taken the word from dacians. basqueITURRIA - romanian, vlach IZVOR T<D<Z (like dia-zi, deus-zeu ) u<uo<vo
There are a lot of names of rivers, lakes, waterfall and citys near water in Romania with those names: Urloi river in Urloii Valey near Urlati city, some lakes named URLoi, URLui; , CeptURA, Urlesti, URLatoarea waterfall (one of the most representativ for the romanian meaning)
I want to ask please:
1. Is this URR/URL root word related to water in other european languagers? Are there river, or places related to water with this root in the name?
2. How old can it be? is it pre-indo-european, pre neolitic farmers (as i think) or just a very early indo-european
3. Is there a link between mesopotamian UR , URuk, NippUR, assUR (places near water) or is just a coincidence?

Sloven-Vened
09-09-16, 15:04
Dr. Cyril Hroník is Slovakian scientist historian and linguistic expert with very rich and world academic career in his scientific work say, about ethymology of Slovak rivers and mountains. All of rivers and mountains in Slovakia have dravidian tamil language ethymology. Tamil is the oldest language of world and Slovakian/Slavic language has the most tamilic words. Tamilic words use other european languages too
7996
Dr. Cyril Hromník

Taranis
09-09-16, 15:32
Dravidians in Slovakia? Good luck with that one... :laughing:

Also the statement that "tamil is the oldest language in the world" is a very dubious one.


Dr. Cyril Hroník is Slovakian scientist historian and linguistic expert with very rich and world academic career in his scientific work say, about ethymology of Slovak rivers and mountains. All of rivers and mountains in Slovakia have dravidian tamil language ethymology. Tamil is the oldest language of world and Slovakian/Slavic language has the most tamilic words. Tamilic words use other european languages too

Dr. Cyril Hromník


Dr. Cyril Hroník is Slovakian scientist historian and linguistic expert with very rich and world academic career in his scientific work say, about ethymology of Slovak words. O lot of words in Slovakia have dravidian tamil language ethymology. Tamil is the oldest language of world and Slovakian/Slavic launage has the most tamilic words. Tamilic words use other european languages too)


Dr. Cyril Hromník



Cyril Hroník is Slovakian historian and linguistic expert with very rich and world academic career is skeptical to "Celts" in middle Europa too: Ethymology of word "Celt" (or Gals or Gaels) is "outlaw / bandit, gangster"


Dr. Cyril Hromník

What is it with this repetitive behaviour of making a similar post over and over, are you some kind of shill? As a moderator, I'm hereby issuing an informal warning for you to cease that.

Sloven-Vened
09-09-16, 15:38
Taranis (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/28410-Taranis) tranquilize you please. You are full of emotions. Peace please. I am not perfect in English language

Sloven-Vened
09-09-16, 15:44
It it only approximately up 50 tamil words in Slovak language, it is not large number. Connection betwen Europa and India was via trade road, via traders. It is theory of scientist Cyril Hromník, it isnt infallible and unerring truth
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_language

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_language)In English wikipedia write, that in European languages is small number of tamilic (dravic) words too. It it not anything overblown.
And trading between Europa and India before Christ, is not anything overblown too.

dodona
09-09-16, 16:54
did you make an error ? From wiki: During the times of the old Scythians it was known in Greek as the Tanaïs, and has been a major trading route ever since. Tanais appears in ancient Greek sources as the name of the river and of a city on it, situated in the Maeotian marshes. The name derives however from Scythian (East Iranian) Dānu "river", akin to Ossetic don "river", and Pashto dand (ډنډ) or dun (depending on dialect) "pond, lake". the name is (East Iranian) . thats right. Its Iranian, having nothing to do with Celts and Celtic language!

Taranis
09-09-16, 19:50
thats right. Its Iranian, having nothing to do with Celts and Celtic language!

Why would it be Iranian? The only Iranian-(Scythian)- speaking peoples that actually lived at the Danube in Antiquity were the Iazyges (in eastern Hungary). In contrast, Celtic-speaking peoples lived at the entirety of the Danube, in particular its source area (probably part of the Celtic homeland). Furthermore, many of the tributaries of the Danube have Celtic names, too. Notably the two source rivers in the Black forest that form the Danube, the Breg and Brigach. Other examples is the river Lech (Likios in the Antiquity - from the Celtic word for 'rock' or 'slab') and the Naab (Nābia in the Antiquity, there were rivers of identical name in Iberia and Britain). I'm with Maciamo that the Iranic words for river (or water body) are related, but the idea that the Scythians named the Danube seems far-fetched for me.

Sile
09-09-16, 21:45
Brenta River

The Brenta river had an incredible importance in the historical-geographic development of Veneto. In Roman times the name was Medoacos/Meduacus (Strabo, Geographia, V, 1, 7; Livy, Ab Urbe condita, X, 2, 6; Pliny the Elder, Naturalis Historia, III, 121) and only in the late Roman period and in the Early middle ages changed into Brintesia/Brinta (Tabula Peutingeriana, segm. III, 5; Venantius Fortunatus, Vita Sancti Martini, IV, 677).


Tagliamento river

mentioned by Pliny as the Tiliaventum Maius Minusque (Pliny the Elder, Naturalis Historia, III, 126).

Sloven-Vened
09-09-16, 21:59
On rivers (and greater mountains and historical cities) in Slovakia don't exist etymology in Slovak and European languages. Linguistic expert Dr. Cyril Hromník present etymology on the majority rivers (, greater mountains and historical cities) in Slovakia from tamil dravic language. It is amazement.
Tamil language is reportedly oldest language of the world.
Lived before Indo-Europeans (Aryans) in Europa people with Tamil language which gave names rivers (greater mountains and historical cities) in Slovakia ? (Tamil is not Indo-European language)
I am sorry, full etymology scientific work from Cyril Hromník is only in Slovak language

I find this link of Cyril Hromník etymology presentation and historic theory, (English language!!!)
http://www.korenine.si/knige/Sloveni_korenine-Hromnik_UP.pdf
second link for download the same PDF file (http://farmakologia.wz.sk/subory1/Sloveni_korenine-Hromnik_UP.pdf)
(lecture Slovenia)

Volat
09-09-16, 22:59
Rivers are some of the oldest geographic names, simply because they predate any human settlement, and were more important to our prehistoric ancestors (for drinking water, transport, washing...) than mountains. The origin of many rivers' name is lost in the depth of time. We nevertheless know the name (or one of the names) most of them had during the Iron Age, Bronze Age and sometimes even before.

Celtic names

- Danube (2,860 km) : from Celtic Dānu, meaning "to flow" (same origin for the Rivers Don, Dnieper and Dniester in Russia).

Dniester river is in Ukraine and Moldova. Dniester, Dnieper, Don basins do not have known Celtic settlements or Celtic hydronyms. However, there were east Iranic settlements in those regions. Scythians and Sarmatians. Etymologies of these 3 rivers are widely considered Iranic in origin by scholars.

Don (Dan in Ossetian, Dan or Dn in Scythian) - water, river.
Dniepr - Dn-apr . Dn - water , apr - deep.
Dniestr - Dn -water, str (styr) - large, big in Ossetian.

Cip
14-09-16, 17:35
Dniester river is in Ukraine and Moldova. Dniester, Dnieper, Don basins do not have known Celtic settlements or Celtic hydronyms. However, there were east Iranic settlements in those regions. Scythians and Sarmatians. Etymologies of these 3 rivers are widely considered Iranic in origin by scholars.

Don (Dan in Ossetian, Dan or Dn in Scythian) - water, river.
Dniepr - Dn-apr . Dn - water , apr - deep.
Dniestr - Dn -water, str (styr) - large, big in Ossetian.


Don, Dn = water, river
Istros/Istru = strong, swift (dacian)

epoch
14-09-16, 21:14
Shannon, the longest river in the British Isles.

The origin of the name is presumably that of the name of the Goddess associated with the river, "Sionna". Celtic in origin.

The Dutch/German river Roer/Ruhr is beyond any doubt derived from a German root for movement. See German word rühren (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/r%C3%BChren)as reference. However, a votive stone has been recovered for the godess Rura (https://books.google.nl/books?id=FSLbNelH1GQC&pg=PA139&lpg=PA139&dq=votive+altar+Rura+-rural&source=bl&ots=fFK9IfMhSP&sig=x_5wle6jhYZJfy3TeOIu0DsVTh4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwihwZqRu4_PAhXFthoKHfv9DugQ6AEIHDAA#v=on epage&q=votive%20altar%20Rura%20-rural&f=false). So it was most likely quite possible for a godess to take her name from river, rather than the other way around.

geiserich
16-03-17, 09:31
In South Germany near the source of the "Danube" there are some similar river names.

"Brigach" : source river of the "Danube"
"Breg" : the other source river of the "Danube"
"Beera": the first big river that flows into the "Danube"

What do you think? Are these river names connected to the similar "Ebro"?

ngc598
16-03-17, 12:47
In South Germany near the source of the "Danube" there are some similar river names.

"Brigach" : source river of the "Danube"
"Breg" : the other source river of the "Danube"
"Beera": the first big river that flows into the "Danube"

What do you think? Are these river names connected to the similar "Ebro"?
No. Celtic 'briga' = hill
ebro -> bask. 'ibar' = valley

hrvclv
18-03-17, 14:26
cp. "Douro" (Portugal)
In Auvergne, we have both :
- a river Dore, a tributary of the Allier, itself running into the Loire.
- the Mont Dore, literally, the "mountain from which the water flows". It's a volcanic massif, in which one can find :
- The source of the river Dordogne (itself from "dour" < dubr)
- A small town called La Bourboule (after Borvo, a Celtic god of springs, if I remember rightly)

Besides, - Breton people will have to confirm this -, but I think "water" is "dour" in today's Breton language.

Cip
18-03-17, 15:01
Is it posible a link to basc URA=water? do+ura=dour

LABERIA
18-03-17, 16:44
Is it posible a link to basc URA=water? do+ura=dour

In Albanian the word ura = bridge. I hope this can help in your discussion.