European blowhards

WickedOne

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I'd like to take this opportunity to express my views of Europeans. They can be nice people, but they do tend to equate Europe with the world.

1) Europeans are very proud of their history and strive to preserve it at all costs.

This is all well and good, but how many histories/cultures were destroyed by the Europeans in their quests to expand their empires? How many native populations suffered greatly because of European greed and barbarity? It seems that Europeans are adamant about saving their own ways of life, but aren't so adamant about saving other cultures. This, to me, is extremely sad, because much of what is considered to be European is really from outside Europe.


2) Europeans like to talk about things they've "discovered".

America is a wonderful example of this. There were people already living on this continent for 25,000 years prior to the barbaric European invasion and yet it never ceases to amaze me how often America is called "young" by our Euro cousins. Apparently, the land sprang up before them as their ships sailed over the Atlantic. On St. Patrick's Day, I watched a TV show in which an Irishman was relating the story of the Fairy Trees of Ireland. He went on and on about how old they were, as if America couldn't possibly have trees that old. Well we do. They are called Sequoias or Giant Redwoods and they most definitely are old. I dare say that the Irishman probably would have fainted if he had been told of them.


3) Europeans like to start wars and expect everyone to help fight them, but they aren't so good at helping others.

It's no secret that Europe is the cause of this planet's two biggest and worst wars. It's also no secret that Europe is, by a long shot, the bloodiest piece of real estate this planet has. More blood has been shed by, for and because of Europe than any other piece of land. The biggest threat to world peace and to America's peace has been and will always be Europe. More American blood has been shed because of wars we've fought with/against Europe than anyone else. No European had a problem with us helping out in the Balkans at the end of the last century. Europeans DID have a problem with us going into Iraq though. And yet both areas are predominantly Muslim and had a fanatical, murderous dictator who liked to kill his own people. The difference? Easy. The Balkans are in Europe. Iraq isn't.


4) Europeans see themselves as a force of good and a champion of peace.

Up until the end of WWII, Europeans had no problem with bloodshed. Europe's history is one horrific bloodbath after another. European empires were built on the backs and blood of less fortunate cultures. And yet, so many Europeans have forgotten this and try to portray Europe as this wonderfully peaceful continent. If Europeans are quick to preach peace, it's simply because they have lost their empires and their status as the world's only superpower. Had the Europeans not screwed up and forced two World Wars on this planet, resulting in the end of their tyrannous grasp on this planet, I have no doubt believing that there would be quite a few more wars fought on behalf of the Euros. Nothing makes people preach peace more than losing their power. And Europe has most definitely lost its power.

5) It makes Europeans uncomfortable to be reminded of all the land they've stolen in the past.

6) Europeans like to brag about how many foreign languages they speak.

Let's be realistic here. Europeans learn EUROPEAN languages. And they learn them so that they can talk to their fellow Europeans. It has nothing to do with a desire to talk to the rest of us. If Europeans really did like learning other people's languages and really did want to talk to the rest of us, then they'd be learning Chinese and Hindu.

Simply put. Learning two or three European languages doesn't make you worldly. It makes you European. :sorry:

7) Europeans have a problem with religion and feel that the rest of us should give it up because of this.

I can't tell you the number of forums I've been on in which Europeans will completely criticize religion and anyone who practices one. Apparently, because Europeans have proven (the Holocaust, The Troubles in Northern Ireland, Chechen rebels, etc.) that they have a problem handling religion, we all should give it up. I disagree with this. There is absolutely no reason for the rest of this planet to give up something simply because the Europeans have proven inept at handling it.

8) Europeans have huge double standards when it come to Europe versus the rest of us (especially America).

Should Europe meddle in the affairs of others, it is deemed constructive criticism or colonialism/civilizing the natives. Should America become involved in the affairs of others, it is deemed meddling/American imperialism/American hegemony. In short, Europe = Good, America = Bad.

9) Europeans see themselves as tolerant individuals and yet intolerance to newcomers is not only acceptable, it's encouraged.

We've all seen the terrible pictures of New Orleans after Hurrican Katrina. Europeans were quick to tut-tut over the poor conditions of poor black people in the American South. And yet, not more than two months later, Paris was lit up like a bonfire due to anger by its poor, black population towards its treatment by the French government. The French politicians' response? To tell the black people of Paris that they should shut up, because they never had it so good. Hell, one French politician even went so far as to call the rioters "scum". What were the consequences of this? He got elected as the new French President last year. I can only imagine the European/American reaction had a senior politician in the US called the poor black people of New Orleans 'scum'. The man/woman would have kissed his/her political career goodbye admist a huge storm of criticism from Europeans/Americans.

Also, America may very well have a black President this year. This has caused much debate in Europe. I fully believe American politics are more racially diverse than European ones and the thought of a black President/Prime Minister is something the Europeans see as being far off in time.

Also, there are huge debates in Europe over strictly controlling immigration. I wonder how many Euros understand that 1) with its declining birthrates, Europe needs immigrants if it wants to survive and 2) the reason so many immigrants are in Europe is because Europe was in their countries first.

10) Europeans see America as the biggest cause of climate change.

This simply isn't true. Climate change did not happen overnight and it wasn't caused by any one country. It can be argued that, if blame were to be placed about who has contributed most to global warming, then Europe would have to be declared the winner. Cars, airplanes, so much machinery from the Industrial Revolution were all created by Europeans. America was the first to stand up and say that Kyoto was useless unless China and India signed up to it. And guess what? We were right. It's only now that the Europeans are beginning to see that.

Just my thoughts on Europeans. You really can be nice people, but you just need to lose the egos.
 
I'd like to take this opportunity to express my views of Europeans. They can be nice people, but they do tend to equate Europe with the world.
1) Europeans are very proud of their history and strive to preserve it at all costs.
This is all well and good, but how many histories/cultures were destroyed by the Europeans in their quests to expand their empires? How many native populations suffered greatly because of European greed and barbarity? It seems that Europeans are adamant about saving their own ways of life, but aren't so adamant about saving other cultures. This, to me, is extremely sad, because much of what is considered to be European is really from outside Europe.
You find that throughout history, not just by Europeans. European culture is the most prominent in modern history because they started to explore the globe. I should also point out that one of the reasons for the American war of Independance was that the English didn't want to expand into native areas and just remain as the 13 colonies. The colonists took umbrage at this, amoungst other things, and once gaining independance did exactly what the Europeans did. I'm sure the native American popultion have much to say about the way the US treated and still treats its native population.
2) Europeans like to talk about things they've "discovered".
America is a wonderful example of this. There were people already living on this continent for 25,000 years prior to the barbaric European invasion and yet it never ceases to amaze me how often America is called "young" by our Euro cousins. Apparently, the land sprang up before them as their ships sailed over the Atlantic. On St. Patrick's Day, I watched a TV show in which an Irishman was relating the story of the Fairy Trees of Ireland. He went on and on about how old they were, as if America couldn't possibly have trees that old. Well we do. They are called Sequoias or Giant Redwoods and they most definitely are old. I dare say that the Irishman probably would have fainted if he had been told of them.
From ignorance springs ignorance. Most Europeans call the US, not the land, young. Yours is a young nation compared to the older civilisations in the world, including the Chinese, Indian, Japanese cultures. Not just the Europeans call the US young. You'll find that they Chinese do it as well. They even call the nations in Europe young.
3) Europeans like to start wars and expect everyone to help fight them, but they aren't so good at helping others.
It's no secret that Europe is the cause of this planet's two biggest and worst wars. It's also no secret that Europe is, by a long shot, the bloodiest piece of real estate this planet has. More blood has been shed by, for and because of Europe than any other piece of land. The biggest threat to world peace and to America's peace has been and will always be Europe. More American blood has been shed because of wars we've fought with/against Europe than anyone else. No European had a problem with us helping out in the Balkans at the end of the last century. Europeans DID have a problem with us going into Iraq though. And yet both areas are predominantly Muslim and had a fanatical, murderous dictator who liked to kill his own people. The difference? Easy. The Balkans are in Europe. Iraq isn't.
Nato mandates, treaties and alliances, not calling for help is why the US has joined wars. I also point out that the US had nothing to do with WW2 until the Japanese attacked Pearl Habour. Your history stinks and I suggest you familiaries yourself with it before making such bold and ignorant statements.
4) Europeans see themselves as a force of good and a champion of peace.
Up until the end of WWII, Europeans had no problem with bloodshed. Europe's history is one horrific bloodbath after another. European empires were built on the backs and blood of less fortunate cultures. And yet, so many Europeans have forgotten this and try to portray Europe as this wonderfully peaceful continent. If Europeans are quick to preach peace, it's simply because they have lost their empires and their status as the world's only superpower. Had the Europeans not screwed up and forced two World Wars on this planet, resulting in the end of their tyrannous grasp on this planet, I have no doubt believing that there would be quite a few more wars fought on behalf of the Euros. Nothing makes people preach peace more than losing their power. And Europe has most definitely lost its power.
The current wars that are being bloody were started by US interests not European. Iraq especially. Because Daddy Bush wanted Baby bush deal with Saddam. All because Saddam made Daddy Bush look like a twatr first time around.
As for building on the backs of other cultures look up the Aztecs, Incan Olmec civilisations in Meso-america and South America. Also the Chinese, Mongol, Mughal, Persian, Egyptian empires. We aren't the only ones that do this. Oh yeah, also the US itself, California, New Mexico, weren't they pinched off other people. Again try reading some history.
5) It makes Europeans uncomfortable to be reminded of all the land they've stolen in the past.
And I'm sure Americans are woundeful eloquant about the lands that they stole.
6) Europeans like to brag about how many foreign languages they speak.
Let's be realistic here. Europeans learn EUROPEAN languages. And they learn them so that they can talk to their fellow Europeans. It has nothing to do with a desire to talk to the rest of us. If Europeans really did like learning other people's languages and really did want to talk to the rest of us, then they'd be learning Chinese and Hindu.
Simply put. Learning two or three European languages doesn't make you worldly. It makes you European. :sorry:
And how many non-european languages do you speak? At least Europeans make and effort to learn other languages, spomething the Americans are well known for not doing.
7) Europeans have a problem with religion and feel that the rest of us should give it up because of this.
I can't tell you the number of forums I've been on in which Europeans will completely criticize religion and anyone who practices one. Apparently, because Europeans have proven (the Holocaust, The Troubles in Northern Ireland, Chechen rebels, etc.) that they have a problem handling religion, we all should give it up. I disagree with this. There is absolutely no reason for the rest of this planet to give up something simply because the Europeans have proven inept at handling it.
Europe as a whole has quite a lot of religious people in it, The difference is that we don't make such a song and dance about it. I have been on forums where atheists in the US are afraid to tell there friend, neighbours or family that they are. If any country is making its people live in a climate of fear about the religion you follow, it is the US. I have found the people who have a problem with religion are North Americans in general. If its not Christian then treat it with suspicion. It people are atheist then really treat them with suspicion, afterall we have no morals, yee-ha and praise the lord:eek:kashii:
8) Europeans have huge double standards when it come to Europe versus the rest of us (especially America).
Should Europe meddle in the affairs of others, it is deemed constructive criticism or colonialism/civilizing the natives. Should America become involved in the affairs of others, it is deemed meddling/American imperialism/American hegemony. In short, Europe = Good, America = Bad.
That is the UN and NATO sparky, not Europe, that deals with international problems.
9) Europeans see themselves as tolerant individuals and yet intolerance to newcomers is not only acceptable, it's encouraged.
We've all seen the terrible pictures of New Orleans after Hurrican Katrina. Europeans were quick to tut-tut over the poor conditions of poor black people in the American South. And yet, not more than two months later, Paris was lit up like a bonfire due to anger by its poor, black population towards its treatment by the French government. The French politicians' response? To tell the black people of Paris that they should shut up, because they never had it so good. Hell, one French politician even went so far as to call the rioters "scum". What were the consequences of this? He got elected as the new French President last year. I can only imagine the European/American reaction had a senior politician in the US called the poor black people of New Orleans 'scum'. The man/woman would have kissed his/her political career goodbye admist a huge storm of criticism from Europeans/Americans.
That's the French for you:D (now expecting Maciamo to defend that)
Also, America may very well have a black President this year. This has caused much debate in Europe. I fully believe American politics are more racially diverse than European ones and the thought of a black President/Prime Minister is something the Europeans see as being far off in time.
You might also have a female one. That hasn't been decided yet. The UK has a few races and religions in its parliment, Christian, Muslim, Sikhs, Jews. In fact I believe that the UK has even had a Jewish prime minister in the past, along with a very successful female one. Once again your entire statement is based on ignorance.
Also, there are huge debates in Europe over strictly controlling immigration. I wonder how many Euros understand that 1) with its declining birthrates, Europe needs immigrants if it wants to survive and 2) the reason so many immigrants are in Europe is because Europe was in their countries first.
Pot, kettle, black. A lot of the immigrants in Europe are from other european countries. The UK has quite a few coming from Eastern Europe, to the point that in some companies have their signs not only in English, but Polish as well. I'm sure the US is so accomodating to immigrants (sarcasm).
10) Europeans see America as the biggest cause of climate change.
This simply isn't true. Climate change did not happen overnight and it wasn't caused by any one country. It can be argued that, if blame were to be placed about who has contributed most to global warming, then Europe would have to be declared the winner. Cars, airplanes, so much machinery from the Industrial Revolution were all created by Europeans. America was the first to stand up and say that Kyoto was useless unless China and India signed up to it. And guess what? We were right. It's only now that the Europeans are beginning to see that.
The US is currently the biggest polluter in the world, soon to be passed by China. What is your presidents answer to climate control? Ignore it because it might interfer with his companies that have helped put him in the Whitehouse. China add India might have ignored Kyoto, but that doesn't excuse why the US had to igniore it as well. At least Europe and other contries aroubnf the world are trying. Bushs comment? It will hurt the US ecomony. Is that a recession I hear coming in the US? Hardly caused by cutting down on emissions, but by the greedy companies that Bush listens to.
Just my thoughts on Europeans. You really can be nice people, but you just need to lose the egos.
You lose yours as well then.
 
I'd like to take this opportunity to express my views of Europeans. They can be nice people, but they do tend to equate Europe with the world.

Remember that you are on a forum about Europe.

1) Europeans are very proud of their history and strive to preserve it at all costs.

This is all well and good, but how many histories/cultures were destroyed by the Europeans in their quests to expand their empires? How many native populations suffered greatly because of European greed and barbarity? It seems that Europeans are adamant about saving their own ways of life, but aren't so adamant about saving other cultures. This, to me, is extremely sad, because much of what is considered to be European is really from outside Europe.

Only 4 or 5 European countries (out of about 40 of them) had a colonial empire : Portugal, Spain, France, Britain and the Netherlands. You cannot equate all Europeans with imperialism. Since 1945, the world's main imperialistic country has been the USA, so it is highly hypocritical of you, as an American to blame Europe for that.

Actually, Europeans have done a lot to sensibilise other countries to preserve their historic heritage. Countries like China or Japan did terrible things in the way they managed their historical buildings in the 1950's, 60's and 70's. Now they are starting to understand that it is a good thing to keep "old buildings", for the sake of future generations (and for tourism).

2) Europeans like to talk about things they've "discovered".

Really ? Don't Americans brag about being the first to go to the Moon, about inventing the Internet, and so on ?

America is a wonderful example of this. There were people already living on this continent for 25,000 years prior to the barbaric European invasion and yet it never ceases to amaze me how often America is called "young" by our Euro cousins.

The USA is a young country because it did not exist as an independent country before the late 18th century. There are few historical buildings (apart from a few cities on the East Coast), and American culture developed through the merging of dozens of culture in the last 200 years or so. That is why Europeans call it "young".

3) Europeans like to start wars and expect everyone to help fight them, but they aren't so good at helping others.

It's no secret that Europe is the cause of this planet's two biggest and worst wars.

Most of the casulaties in WWII were in Asia. Japan caused the death of some 20 to 30 million people in the territory it conquered (mostly in China). The USA is responsible for dropping two A-bombs, and killings millions of civilians in Europe and Japan by carpet bombing entire cities (inclduing all big cities in Germany and Japan). WWII started with the Japanese invasion of China in 1933, not with Hitler's invasion of Poland in 1939 (that's only the start in Europe). In any case, not all Europeans were responsible for WWII. Only a few people ruling of Nazi Germany were responsible. One third of Europe did not really take part in WWI or WWII.


It's also no secret that Europe is, by a long shot, the bloodiest piece of real estate this planet has. More blood has been shed by, for and because of Europe than any other piece of land.

Have you ever learnt the history of other continents ? Africa has always been bloodier than Europe. China has its load of internal wars as well. Anyway, what difference does it make to you that your (or my) European ancestors fought so frequently between themselves ?

The biggest threat to world peace and to America's peace has been and will always be Europe.

Funny, all the world seem to think nowadays that the biggest threat to world peace is the USA. Just ask people around (anywhere outside the USA), you'd be surprise.

More American blood has been shed because of wars we've fought with/against Europe than anyone else.

Normal, most Americans are of European descent. Same civilisation, same blood.

No European had a problem with us helping out in the Balkans at the end of the last century. Europeans DID have a problem with us going into Iraq though.

One million Iraqi have died in the last 5 years. What did they, or anybody else, gain from it ? Pointless war. That's why so many people were opposed to it, not just in Europe, the Middle East or Asia, but also in the USA. Why do you think Bush is so hated nowadays ? Not because of internal policies...

And yet both areas are predominantly Muslim and had a fanatical, murderous dictator who liked to kill his own people. The difference? Easy. The Balkans are in Europe. Iraq isn't.

Saddam Hussein is credited with the death of a few thousands Iraqi during the 1980's, shortly after he seized power. Ask Iraqi people now if they are better off now that they were under him. Most would say no. Just after the US-led invasion, only half of the population thought that they had be better off. 5 years later, the majority think they aren't.

In comparison, the war in the Balkans has completely ended. Slovenia has joined the EU, and Croatia will soon. People are better off and nobody contest it.


4) Europeans see themselves as a force of good and a champion of peace.

Up until the end of WWII, Europeans had no problem with bloodshed. Europe's history is one horrific bloodbath after another.

That's the history of most Americans too, as most of them migrated from Europe. Nowadays, Europe is more peaceful and safe than the USA. The crime rate in the USA is appalingly high by EU standards.

European empires were built on the backs and blood of less fortunate cultures.

Do you mean like the Black slaves that worked in cotton and tobacco fields in the USA ? I don't remember Black slaves being used similarily in Europe.


And yet, so many Europeans have forgotten this and try to portray Europe as this wonderfully peaceful continent.

It wasn't, but Europeans have worked hard to make it peaceful.

If Europeans are quick to preach peace, it's simply because they have lost their empires and their status as the world's only superpower.

Is that why the USA does not preach peace but prefer invading oil-rich countries ?

Had the Europeans not screwed up and forced two World Wars on this planet, resulting in the end of their tyrannous grasp on this planet, I have no doubt believing that there would be quite a few more wars fought on behalf of the Euros. Nothing makes people preach peace more than losing their power. And Europe has most definitely lost its power.

Modern power is economic power, not military one. The Japanese, the Chinese, the Indians and others have understood it as well as Europeans. Americans still think that both are necessary.

5) It makes Europeans uncomfortable to be reminded of all the land they've stolen in the past.

Yeah, too bad we bought that island of Manhattan from the Amerindians. That gave a bad example for the future generations of European settlers in North America who thought they could just steal land (instead of buying it) from the Natives. Conclusion, a continent 7x like Europe (i.e. North America) was "stolen" and settled by "Europeans". Oh but, these Europeans are now called Americans, aren't they ? Those who never set foot in America and stayed in Europe can't be responsible for that, can they ? Always remember that the colonists, that's YOU, not the Europeans that stayed in Europe.

6) Europeans like to brag about how many foreign languages they speak.

Let's be realistic here. Europeans learn EUROPEAN languages. And they learn them so that they can talk to their fellow Europeans. It has nothing to do with a desire to talk to the rest of us. If Europeans really did like learning other people's languages and really did want to talk to the rest of us, then they'd be learning Chinese and Hindu.

The rest of us ? People on all the American continent speak European languages (English, French, Spanish and Portuguese). Most Europeans learn English (like me) so that they can communicate with Americans, Australians, South Africans, Indians, and so on.

Then you'd be surprised by the number of people who learn non-European languages. I have learned Japanese, as well as a bit of Chinese, Thai, Indonesian and Hindi when I visited their respective countries. In fact, when I was living in Japan I noticed that most of the Westerners who acually tried to learn Japanese were Europeans, while Americans or Austrlians just expected the Japanese (or anybody else) to speak English.

English isn't my mother tongue, but I am using it with you. Can I expect you to learn my native language to communicate with me ? I doubt.

Simply put. Learning two or three European languages doesn't make you worldly. It makes you European.

It's not a matter of worldiness. It's a matter of effort to communicate with others. Simply put, if you are going to live abroad for at least a few months, try and learn the language. That's courtesy, not worldliness.

7) Europeans have a problem with religion and feel that the rest of us should give it up because of this.

Don't give a damn if you don't, but don't annoy me with your beliefs.

8) Europeans have huge double standards when it come to Europe versus the rest of us (especially America).

Should Europe meddle in the affairs of others, it is deemed constructive criticism or colonialism/civilizing the natives. Should America become involved in the affairs of others, it is deemed meddling/American imperialism/American hegemony. In short, Europe = Good, America = Bad.

Isn't it that way ? Just kidding. Just keep in mind that you are the colonisers, those who stole land, killed the natives - not Europeans who remained in Europe. You are the ones who continue, up to this day, to meddle in world's affairs, even when the rest of the world, thanks to modern media, clearly say that they disagree with your views. How often do you see European flags being burnt in developing countries, as opposed to American flags ? Looks like not everybody agrees that America is better at taking care of international affairs...

9) Europeans see themselves as tolerant individuals and yet intolerance to newcomers is not only acceptable, it's encouraged.

I suppose that's why the EU recently accepted 12 new members, who were all (much) poorer, and gladly opened their borders with them.

We've all seen the terrible pictures of New Orleans after Hurrican Katrina. Europeans were quick to tut-tut over the poor conditions of poor black people in the American South. And yet, not more than two months later, Paris was lit up like a bonfire due to anger by its poor, black population towards its treatment by the French government. The French politicians' response? To tell the black people of Paris that they should shut up, because they never had it so good.

Main difference : Most Black Americans have been living in the USA for over 2 centuries. Most Arabic people in France are recent immigrants who don't respect local values, don't speak French properly (even those born in France), live on social security, and constantly cause problems. Completely different situations.

Hell, one French politician even went so far as to call the rioters "scum".

False. An immigrant woman called "scum" some deliquents and asked Sarkozy if he was going to do something about it. To which, Sarkozy replied "yes, madam, I will deal with these scums" (well, it's an approximate translation). Anyway, deliquents are scum - by definition, and whatever their ethnicity.

The problem with your remarks (not just this one) is that you only see the tip of the iceberg and have a very shallow understanding of the situation.

Also, America may very well have a black President this year. This has caused much debate in Europe. I fully believe American politics are more racially diverse than European ones and the thought of a black President/Prime Minister is something the Europeans see as being far off in time.

The USA is obviously much more racially diverse than Europe. But
until recently, the thought of a black President was completely taboo in the US too. I guess Hollywood had a lot of influence about that (with series such as "24").

Note that President Sarkozy, whom you criticised above for being "intolerant towards racial minorities", chose a Maghrean woman as his Justice Minister (a very important position) and a Senegalese woman for another ministry. Both are quite popular with the French population. That doesn't change the fact that most of the teenage boys that burnt down cars for fun are of Maghreban origins, and that half of the people in prison in France or Belgium are also of Maghreban origins - in complete disproportion with other ethnic/cultural groups.

I understand why. The only times that I, my family or my friends had any safety issues here, it always involved Maghrebans. A cousin of mine was beaten up by a gang of Moroccans in an otherwise safe town. My wife got spit in the face outside a supermarket by a Moroccan boy accompanied by his mother, and the mother didn't even scold him ! A friend of mine was car-jacked by Morrocans. I have many more examples. The only districts in which the police hesitates to go are typically those with high densities of Maghrebans. Almost everybody I know here has had bad experiences with Maghrebans or have family members or friends who have. How do you expect people to like them ? It's not racism or xenophobia. It only concerns Maghrebans. Other Arabic-speakers (Lebanese, Jordanians, Saudi, etc.) are usually just fine.

Also, there are huge debates in Europe over strictly controlling immigration. I wonder how many Euros understand that 1) with its declining birthrates, Europe needs immigrants if it wants to survive and 2) the reason so many immigrants are in Europe is because Europe was in their countries first.

I don't see why a country needs immigrants because the birth rate is a bit low. I think people all over the world should have less children if we want to survive on an already overcrowded planet.

As I said before, most Europeans countries never had colonies, and yet are submerged by immigrants. Belgium only had Congo has a colony for a few decades. Why should we get mostly Moroccan immigrants ? There is no historical ties between the two countries. Scandinavia, Germany, Switerland, Austria or Italy also had no significant colonies, and yet 20% of Switerland's population is now foreign-born (which means mostly from developing countries).

10) Europeans see America as the biggest cause of climate change.

This simply isn't true. Climate change did not happen overnight and it wasn't caused by any one country.

No. Europeans see the US has the only government of a developed country that doesn't seem to care about tackling the problem seriously. Well, that was true for the Bush administration. Hopefully it will change with the next.
 
The Americans aren't fully credited with the invention of the internet as it is now. Look up Sir Tim Berners-Lee, an Englishman, about the World Wide Web.

That doesn't mean they* don't brag about it. ;) Same for the Moon; it is not through exclusively American science and technology that they got there.

* read "some of them"
 
I've noticed that some Americans get all huffy when such things are pointed out. I like the way he knocks European culture without realising how much of it the US is based on it. Its political system on Roman lines, its law on the British legal system, its transport links and industry on the industrial revolution (UK, Germany), its languages (English, Spanish, French being the main ones).
I wonder WickedOne, exactly how many non-european languages do you speak, Navajo, Cherokee? The US has a rich non-european language heritage from the various native tribes, along with a great mytholgical and cultural heritage. It is such a pity that the US still treats these natives as second class citizens and sticks to its European roots.
 
The USA is a young country. Despite there being natives here for thousands of years, this country has only been a country for two hundred years. I think the only advantage we have over Europe is that we are so young and haven't the traditions that bind us to old policies. Trail of Tears, Slavery, Vietnam, WWII... These are all prime examples of the tyranny we have caused in our short history. This does not, however, excuse the horrible things done by the rest of the world. For the most part, if you ask an American what they think of, say Sweden, they will most likely say "They have good meatballs." What do we think of Belgium? "They have good waffles." Germany? "Awesome beer!" Do you see a patern? (hint: no opinion)
As far as Americans knowing other languages, well, most of us don't encounter people who don't speak English. For example, in Switzerland, if you go north you will find people who speak German; in the east people speak French, and in the south they speak Italian. It's not like that in America. Even in Texas, right on the border of Mexico, people still speak English. It is practical. In fact, most people who do not speak English are illegal immigrants.
If the United States produces the most pollution then it is because we are a huge and vastly populated nation. There are over 303 million people currently living here. All using gas, all burning lightbulbs, and all polluting the environment. There are 127 million in Japan, 16 million in the Netherlands, 9 million in Sweden, over a billion in China, and 82 million in Germany. All of these nations, except China, do not equal the total popullation of the USA. Think about it people, think about it...
No one likes to be reminded of their follies. That is all I have to say. Oh, and don't bring up religion in mixed company. It's not nice to criticize and all parties are fighting a losing battle.
And please please please everyone, stop talking about the things some of your native people have done. Just because George Stephenson invented the train or Henry Ford invented the automobile DOES NOT mean you have somehow aquired a piece of their genius. No, sweety, you still wipe your ass and eat your oatmeal like the rest of us.
George Bush = DOUCHE BAG. In my humble opinion, he in NO WAY reflects the opinions or views of America. In fact, I consider him anti-American. He is the biggest bigot, douche bag, money hungry, ****, terrorist of all. Honestly, how many times can a man use the word "terror" in one goddamned speech? When you buy your electoral votes and bribe congress with you blood money you can do anything. Just for the record, George Bush DID NOT win the popular vote. This leaves us all scratching our heads wonder how the f*ck a monkey made it in the White House.
The United States is flawed, just as most countries are. In Asia people are taught to follow customs and traditions and are not encouraged to open the box and explore. In Australia people want to be identified as Australians, not hick englishman. In Africa 1 in 3 people have AIDS. Mudslinging only makes everyone filthy.
 
I think the only advantage we have over Europe is that we are so young and haven't the traditions that bind us to old policies.

I don't agree with that. The young USA inherited most of its traditions and culture from Britain, Germany and the Netherlands. After that the admixture of cultures and traditions became more complex with new influxes of immigrants from various countries. But those people did not come with a blank slate. If they had, there would be no religion in the USA. As the US was founded mostly as a land for religious immigrants, it is more than ever built on religious traditions. Until nowadays traditions like Christmas have remained stronger in the USA than in Europe.

In terms of law, the USA has one of the most traditional system in the world. The American legal system is heavily based on the old English Law. Many concepts have even disappeared over time in Britain but were preserved in the USA (just look at the medieval Latin jargon used by US lawyers, like subpoena).

The US political institutions are even more "traditional" as they were copied on the ancient Greco-Roman system.

For the most part, if you ask an American what they think of, say Sweden, they will most likely say "They have good meatballs." What do we think of Belgium? "They have good waffles." Germany? "Awesome beer!" Do you see a patern?

Yeah, quite superficial field of vision. A country is more than just food.

As far as Americans knowing other languages, well, most of us don't encounter people who don't speak English. For example, in Switzerland, if you go north you will find people who speak German; in the east people speak French, and in the south they speak Italian. It's not like that in America. Even in Texas, right on the border of Mexico, people still speak English. It is practical. In fact, most people who do not speak English are illegal immigrants.

That's because Americans don't go out enough of their country ! Europeans are lucky to be able to go to another country or language region so easily. But rare are the younger Europeans who haven't been outside Europe. When choosing a second or third language at school, many people here choose English and Spanish because it is more useful to travel outside Europe (Spanish being mostly for Latin America), not because they often go to England or Spain.

For example, it is common for French-speaking Belgians to choose Spanish over Dutch, because they prefer to travel to the Caribbean, Mexico or Peru than worry about their country's main language ! My point is that you don't have to live in a multilingual environment to learn languages. All Belgians should speak both French and Dutch, but less than half really do (I mean fluently, as most people know at least the basics).


If the United States produces the most pollution then it is because we are a huge and vastly populated nation. There are over 303 million people currently living here. All using gas, all burning lightbulbs, and all polluting the environment. There are 127 million in Japan, 16 million in the Netherlands, 9 million in Sweden, over a billion in China, and 82 million in Germany. All of these nations, except China, do not equal the total popullation of the USA.

False argument. There are 700 million people in Europe (500 million in the European Union). That's much more than the USA, and yet Europe pollutes less than just the USA. For example, the EU only produces 14% of the world's CO2 emission, as opposed to 24% for the USA.

That is why pollution is usually calculated in "per capita" figures, to avoid confusion about the country's size. Please check this List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions per capita and this List of countries by greenhouse gas emissions per capita. Out of about 200 countries, the average American is the 7th biggest producer of greenhouse gas, and the 10th for carbon dioxide. The few countries polluting more per inhabitant are mostly tiny countries (Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, UAE, Brunei, Luxembourg, Aruba, Belize, Guyana...). Canadians and Australians are actually worse than Americans for greenhouse gas.


Think about it people, think about it...

Right back at ya !

And please please please everyone, stop talking about the things some of your native people have done. Just because George Stephenson invented the train or Henry Ford invented the automobile DOES NOT mean you have somehow aquired a piece of their genius. No, sweety, you still wipe your ass and eat your oatmeal like the rest of us.

I suppose that genius comes from both nature and nurture. Nature means the genes, which you are more likely to share with people from your part of the world (unless you live in a country founded on immigration like the USA). For example, a Scot has much higher chances to share "genes of genius" of a fellow Scot, even dead for 300 years than that of anywhere else in the world.
Nurture is your culture and education. This is intricately linked to the country (and epoch) where you were born and raised. So, after all, there is a (very tiny) reason to be proud of the achievements of your countrymen.


George Bush = DOUCHE BAG. In my humble opinion, he in NO WAY reflects the opinions or views of America.

But he does reflect the opinion of a large percentage of the Americans who elected him twice. Too bad for the other Americans, like you. Maybe it's time to talk to your relatives and friends and make sure nobody votes for a jackass like him again. When Europeans warn Americans about electing Bush 8 years ago, we were mostly laughed at. In retaliation Bush incited the Americans to call the French (big opponents to the Bush administration) "cheese-eating monkeys". But who is laughing now ?

The United States is flawed, just as most countries are.

Yes, but some countries are more flawed than others. I would never wish to live in the USA now. 15 years ago maybe, but not since Bush ! One thing that irritates me is the condescending commercials about the "American Green Card". You probably don't see it in the States, but here it's on TV and on the Internet. It gives the feeling that the USA is the world's most desirable place to live and that we lowly Europeans could be lucky enough to obtain a Green Card through a lottery to have the wonderful life-changing chance to live in the USA ! This gives me as bad an image of the USA as Bush himself ! So arrogant, condescending and ignorant.

In Asia people are taught to follow customs and traditions and are not encouraged to open the box and explore. In Australia people want to be identified as Australians, not hick englishman. In Africa 1 in 3 people have AIDS. Mudslinging only makes everyone filthy.

What's your point ? What Asian country are you talking about ? Japan isn't Nepal, nor Iran...

Modern Australians are mostly of Irish, Scottish, German, Italian, Greek and South-East Asian descent. Few are of English descent, so it's normal that few would recognise themselves as Englishmen.

AIDS is much more prevalent in the southern third of Africa than elsewhere.
 
This thread is ridiculous! WickedOne, you sit there and tell Europeans that they "need to lose the egos". Uhh, hello! We Americans are an extremely egotistical group of people. I have a question for you. Have you ever been to Europe? The television doesn't count, nor does knowing someone who lived in or visited Europe count either. Don't get me wrong, I love America. However, I would kill for the chance to get out of here and travel Europe. I want to visit all the places where I have roots. As a matter of fact, I am talking to my academic advisors about studying abroad next year. If that doesn't work, I'm going anyways. (Even though the dollar is a piece of Sh*t. Truly, I'll be a bum there). You really need to get out and travel the world before you cast judgements on it.
Then and only then will I even listen to anything that you have to say on this issue. Because basically, all you did was describe the human race.
 
George Bush DID NOT win the popular vote in th 2000 election (which I am still trying to wrap my silly little mind around). He did win the 2004 election, this is undeniable, but consider this: all those little 14, 15, and 16 year old kids that were in school on September 11, 2001 were terrified. Terrified not only by what they saw, but also by the way they could turn to no one for answers. All those teenagers, children of the baby boomers, grew up, so to speak, into working, voting adults. And lets be honest, Bush has been clinging to that one day for years on end. The American people are not told about the many thousands that have died in Iraq, and we have completely turned a cold shoulder to those in Afghanistan. War is awful. In my town a boy, 24, was killed when the tank he was in ran over a landmine. The people here want to line the streets holding American flags! Someone gave me a flyer and said, Abby, please come and support the effort. If it was up to me we would line the streets surrounding the White House bathed in blood shouting "I am Ryan Baumann" "I am Nick Dewhirst" "I am 600,000 dead Iraqi people" "I am nothing as long as you have your billions"

Sorry, I know this turned into a rant. I was just really trying to say that most Americans don't feel the way Wickedone does, and most Americans have no preconceived notion of Europeans. In school, we are given the choice of French, Spanish, German, and Mandarin Chinese. I know that in my life I have only come across 2 legal immigrants who couldn't speak English, and they were both very elderly. And while most people would love to go to Europe for their "one week a year" vacation, most can't afford it. No, it's Florida for us. George Bush and 50 Cent are not accurate representations, dear god, they arent.
 
Modern Australians are mostly of Irish, Scottish, German, Italian, Greek and South-East Asian descent. Few are of English descent, so it's normal that few would recognise themselves as Englishmen.
AIDS is much more prevalent in the southern third of Africa than elsewhere.

You forgot Chinese, whole bunch of immigrants from South East Asian countries like Singapore, Malaysia, Brunei...etc are of Chinese Descent.

There are discriminations towards ethnic minorities in many of those countries.
 
1) Europeans are very proud of their history and strive to preserve it at all costs.
We, unlike the Americans, don't rewrite history after every American president's term of office. Therefore I find it impossible to "preserve it". History merely is.

..... how many histories/cultures were destroyed by the Europeans in their quests to expand their empires? How many native populations suffered greatly because of European greed and barbarity? It seems that Europeans are adamant about saving their own ways of life, but aren't so adamant about saving other cultures. This, to me, is extremely sad, because much of what is considered to be European is really from outside Europe.
And yet in a mere 200 year period the Americans have destroyed countries (both democratic and the other sort) at a rate of speed that boggles the mind. Cuba, Iran, Vietnam, Nicaragua, San Salvador, Panama, Iraq ... you get the point.

2) Europeans like to talk about things they've "discovered".

America is a wonderful example of this. There were people already living on this continent for 25,000 years prior to the barbaric European invasion ...
I agree. But why is it that this form of "discovery" is written in your history books?

... it never ceases to amaze me how often America is called "young" by our Euro cousins.
This is in direct referrence to your white (non-indian) government. Heh! You mark your own history from the time of the revolution. You do know what the revolution was all about ... don't you? It is you who proclaim it, don't try to blame us for your ignorance.


3) Europeans like to start wars and expect everyone to help fight them, but they aren't so good at helping others.
* I suppose you were sleeping all through the build up to your invasion of Irak. You recon it was the Irakis who started a war with the US, do you?

* You didn't join in the WWII fight till Japan blasted you out of the water at Pearl Harbour. Up until then you were neutral. I'm not critizing the US for that, I'm merely giving you a lesson on history.

* I wonder where you think the Statue of Liberty comes from. Forged on the Ford assembly-line perhaps? France, among others shed their blood for your revolution and they were extraordinarily gracious by commending you on your efforts.

It would be interesting to know how you balance the revolutionary period with the fact that "There were people already living on your continent for 25,000 years prior to" your arrival?
It's no secret that Europe is ....... The biggest threat to world peace and to America's peace has been and will always be Europe.
You're just makaing this up as you go along, I see.

4) Europeans see themselves as a force of good and a champion of peace.
That's a VERY odd thing for an Ameican to say!

6) Europeans like to brag about how many foreign languages they speak..
This is not true. The problem lies with the Americans who speak no language at all. They claim to speak English .... but ..... well ... we non-English-speaking Europeans speak English a far sight better than the average "educated" American. The "brag" you talk of is actually your own personal complex whenever other Americans praise us for our abilities to learn other languages.

Now, if your schools actually taught other languages (and took them as serioulsy as we do) then you wouldn't suffer this frustration of yours. March to Washington and lodge a protest! But for God's sake, start with teacing English first!

7) Europeans have a problem with religion and feel that the rest of us should give it up because of this.

I can't tell you the number of forums I've been on in which Europeans will completely criticize religion and anyone who practices one.
I'm sure that you're exagerrating. But whether you are or not it's possible you don't know that the commonest (if not the only) one who's knocking on our European homes to critisize our lack of religious convictions are ..... ready for this (?) ... Americans! Here they come again! Americans in white shirts and tie to jam Jehovas Witness and Mormons down our throat.

If your people can travel to our continent trying to convert us, we damn well have the right to tell you where to put it.

You are an extremely misguided young man. I could make comment to all but maybe 2 of your statements but I think you've got enough to contemplate for the time being. Have a nice day.
 
7) Europeans have a problem with religion and feel that the rest of us should give it up because of this.

I can't tell you the number of forums I've been on in which Europeans will completely criticize religion and anyone who practices one. Apparently, because Europeans have proven (the Holocaust, The Troubles in Northern Ireland, Chechen rebels, etc.) that they have a problem handling religion, we all should give it up. I disagree with this. There is absolutely no reason for the rest of this planet to give up something simply because the Europeans have proven inept at handling it.

Religion is not the root problem in northern Ireland. It is used by lazy journalists/commentators who have very little or no idea of the history of the conflict. Basically protestants are descended from colonists from Britain who were planted in Ireland to control the northern province after the "Flight of the Earls" and the nine years war. They want to remain part of the UK. The Catholics are descended from the indigenous dispossessed natives and by and large wish to reunite with the rest of Ireland. Religion is just used as a label of convenience to describe Nationalists (Catholics) and Unionists (Protestants). The conflict is not about which religion is the best!!!!
 
Oh my!

I would just like to say that I did not vote for Bush in 2000, but my husband did. I was bummed when he won, had hope for him post 9/11, and was outraged when he invaded Iraq. I was amazed how the people I know, trusted friends and relatives, bought the whole "weapons of mass destruction" b.s. and was severely disappointed at the politicians and reporters who crumbled under the "cult of the flag" that existed here during that time. I swear every car had a flag on it's antenna, flags on clothes, flags in front of every house...flags everywhere. Anytime anyone said something against the morality or legality of the Iraq war, they were critisized for "not supporting the troops", God forbid. I'm a veteran of an ill-conceived American foray into another countries' sovereignty (US Army, operation Just Cause, ousting Panamanian Manuel Noreiga), and saving young men and women from senseless sacrifice IS Patriotic. That is supporting the troops damnit!

If I was bummed when Bush won in 2000, I was downright despondent in 04. My husband did not vote for Bush that time, and I use his first vote for him as a "low-blow" during squabbles. :LOL:I wanted to leave the US, thow away my citizenship, go back to my European roots. Clearly, the Americans weren't my people. I fantasized about leaving, immersing myself in European forums and newspapers, and guess what? I realized they would never accept me...I'd always be the face to take the blame for Bush, the foreigner, the immigrant. I'm 100% Northern European, English/Irish/German by the way. I guess I'm stuck here thanks to my European ancestors who evidently bought the whole "green card" propaganda (I haven't seen the ads...how disturbing)

I still hate Bush and Cheny, I wish they would be brought up on war crimes. The cult of the flag is waning, but there are pockets here and there. Religion is way too immersed here in my opinion...every day my kids have to put there hands on their hearts at school and say "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all", just like I did. Our money says "In God we Trust"...

It's imperfect, and I believe we are just now coming out of our darkest hour (I hope). By the way, I'd travel to Europe if I could afford it! Maybe you Europeans have more money, or your socialized medicine and whatnot means you get to keep more of it, but no way can the average American go to Europe as a vacation! Fluency in languages: I think we're a victim of our remoteness, not interest. In Europe you can learn a language and in short time be somewhere they actually speak it. Most Americans know some Spanish, some of us are fluent, because we're close to Mexico and have people to practice it with! Most Canadians speak some French because they have Quebec and a chance to practice it. It's not that difficult to figure out people! Wickedone, I don't agree with many of your points, but I know how you came to them. I like the comment that mudslinging only makes everyone dirty!
 

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