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Maciamo
05-04-08, 12:11
The ex-Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has seen its candidature to NATO vetoed by Greece simply because Greeks do not accept the use of the name Macedonia for this country, claiming that Macedonia is part of Greece.

Wikipedia has an extensive article on the Macedonia naming dispute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute). It shows clearly that historical Macedonia is split between the Greek province and the ex-Yugoslavian republic.

As a Belgian, I find this quarrel particularly childish. 5 of the 7 main historical states that make up modern Belgium are similarly split between Belgium and 3 neighbouring countries. Half of the old Counties of Flanders and Hainaut now lie within the borders of France; the north of the old Duchy of Brabant lies in the Netherlands; Limburg is the name of a Dutch province and Flemish one, ultimately named after a Walloon town; and Luxembourg is an independent country as well as a Belgian province of comparable size.

I can't imagine the Belgian government arguing with its neighbours over the exclusive use of historical names or regions. That's nonsensical, as each modern country possess has much geographical rights to the name as its neighbour. The same is true for Macedonia.

It's sad that a supposedly developed and democratic country like Greece, which was also an early member of the EU and NATO, should use such petty rhetoric to cause problems with its neighbours. The problem with Greece is that it is not just Macedonia. Such petty conflicts are also common with Turkey. Good that the Italians did not name one of their provinces or regions "Magna Grecia", otherwise one could have expected the Greeks to protest similarily.

Starship
05-04-08, 20:23
I spent a bit of time in Greece in my younger years, a lovely country but the heat was incredible nothing like I had ever experienced before in cold wet Dublin. I really liked the people as well very passionate but a bit hot tempered and volatile, I put a certain amount of this down to the climate. I knew they had had a bad time of it under Turkish rule but I could never avoid a bit of mischief, when a woman asked me if I was English (as happens alot abroad) I replied no Irish and she says English Irish no difference. So I point at her and say Greek Turk whats the difference, well if looks could kill, she turned on her heal and stormed off.

I think with some countries more than others there's alot more going on under the surface than pure logic, look at Pakistan and India its all ways religion with Greece its very much history.

atanas
07-10-10, 13:26
Hello,
let me introduce myself, I'm Atanas from Skopje, Macedonia.

I can tell you a little over the Macedonian-Greek issue. It dates back from the period of the late 19th - early 20th century, when Macedonia was still an Ottoman province

All indepdent countries / kingdoms at that time, were trying to place their education and languages in the schools and churches all over Macedonia: Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek, in order to expell the Turks from Macedonia and the conquer much more land for themselves.
If reason for the First Balkan War was the end of the Turks in Europe, then the Second one was for the division of Macedonia between Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece (please see Aegean, Vardar, Pirin parts of Macedonia). What is today's Republic of Macedonia is used to be the Vardar part which was given to Kingdom of Serbia, later Yugoslavia.
The problem with Greece is the following: Greece has almost half of ethnical-geographical Macedonia into Greek borders, has expelled, brutally by force or killed over 500.000 ethnic Macedonians from that region. Today there are many of them living in Macedonia, Bulgaria, Australia, USA/Canada and Poland, which still cannot enter Greece to visit their parents native places. Greek government denies the existense of Macedonians, therefore no Macedonian can be spoken in the Greek schools, although the Macedonian language is widely spoken in large areas of north Greece.

That's the main reason why Macedonia has become Greek since 1980 and why Republic of Macedonia today is not a NATO member country.

iapodos
07-10-10, 22:56
Hello,
let me introduce myself, I'm Atanas from Skopje, Macedonia.

I can tell you a little over the Macedonian-Greek issue. It dates back from the period of the late 19th - early 20th century, when Macedonia was still an Ottoman province

All indepdent countries / kingdoms at that time, were trying to place their education and languages in the schools and churches all over Macedonia: Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek, in order to expell the Turks from Macedonia and the conquer much more land for themselves.
If reason for the First Balkan War was the end of the Turks in Europe, then the Second one was for the division of Macedonia between Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece (please see Aegean, Vardar, Pirin parts of Macedonia). What is today's Republic of Macedonia is used to be the Vardar part which was given to Kingdom of Serbia, later Yugoslavia.
The problem with Greece is the following: Greece has almost half of ethnical-geographical Macedonia into Greek borders, has expelled, brutally by force or killed over 500.000 ethnic Macedonians from that region. Today there are many of them living in Macedonia, Bulgaria, Australia, USA/Canada and Poland, which still cannot enter Greece to visit their parents native places. Greek government denies the existense of Macedonians, therefore no Macedonian can be spoken in the Greek schools, although the Macedonian language is widely spoken in large areas of north Greece.

That's the main reason why Macedonia has become Greek since 1980 and why Republic of Macedonia today is not a NATO member country.

It would be interesting to see, when the Slavs in region of Macedonia began to use name Macedonians for themselves. As I know, in 19th century they were mostly defined as Bulgarians, and in northwestern part of nowadays Macedonia as Serbs. The name Macedonians for Slavs in region of Macedonia was introduced in late 19th century. It was rather artificial designation for people with undefined national identity.
The same thing happened with Muslim Slavs of Bosnia who usurped name of state Bosnia and designated themselves as Bosniaks today.

Elias2
08-10-10, 01:23
The ex-Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has seen its candidature to NATO vetoed by Greece simply because Greeks do not accept the use of the name Macedonia for this country, claiming that Macedonia is part of Greece.

Wikipedia has an extensive article on th It shows clearly that historical Macedonia is split between the Greek province and the ex-Yugoslavian republic.

As a Belgian, I find this quarrel particularly childish. 5 of the 7 historical main states that make up modern Belgium are similarly split between Belgium and 3 neighbouring countries. Half of the old Counties of Flanders and Hainaut are now in France; the north of the old Duchy of Brabant lies in the Netherlands; Limburg is a name of a Dutch and Flemish province named after a Walloon town; and Luxembourg is an independent country and a Belgian province of the same size.

I can't imagine the Belgian government arguing with its neighbours over the exclusive use of historical names or regions. That's nonsensical, as each modern country possess has much geographical rights to the name as its neighbour. The same is true for Macedonia.

It's sad that a supposedly developed and democratic country like Greece, which was also an early member of the EU and NATO, should use such petty rhetoric to cause problems with its neighbours. The problem with Greece is that it is not just Macedonia. Such petty conflicts are also common with Turkey. Good that the Italians did not name one of their provinces or regions "Magna Grecia", otherwise one could have expected the Greeks to protest similarily.

The Historical boundaries is not what this debate is about, even though FYROM posssses little of ancient Macedon pre-alexander, used to have. The problem is this notion of a "Greater macedonia", which they are actively taught in schools.


Their invented Identity post WW2 as "Macedonians" makes them think they have rights to Greek and Bulagrian Land, and Greek and Bulgarian History. And this I idea of a "greater macedonia" is what they are taught in schools and at home. Greece has no problem when they call themselves macedonians, but by having a country with the name "Republic of Macedonia" propagates ownership of foriegn land, which they pursue through propaganda like the one I just showed, and national rallies where they wave flags outlining their asperations.

This is why Greece cannot let it be. A simple "Northern", "New", or "Vardar" in the name would clearly differenciate it between Greek, or bulgarian macedonia. We see this used throughout the world in examples like northern Ireland and North Korea.

I won't get into the cultural and ethnic differences between these "Macedonians" and ancient Macedonians, which they claim they are decended from, even though they proclaim to be slavic aswell.

Why do you find it "childish" when Greeces neighboors infrienge on its sovereignty and Greece speaks up for itself?

The same goes with Turkey. Daily, Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace, and the Greek Airforce has to drive them back, airspace over greek owned islands. The same goes with the enlargment of greek territorial waters to 12 km offshore. Greek has the international right to do this yet Turkey threatens war with greek should they impose it in the Agean, yet they themselves claime 12 km off North and southern Turkey.

The same Turkish hypocracy can be found in the illegal occupation of Northern Cypus. Turkey frowns apound the palestinian occupation yet they themselves do the same. Turkey nor the enhabitants of northern cyprus want to reunify, they think if they prolong it they will get recongnised eventually, even though the ICJ ruled the invasion illegal. And pro Turkish plans like the "anna plan" undermines democracy and makes turkish votes more important than greek votes.

A country like turkey who breaks many international laws, and human rights should be facing sanctions but insted they are activley seeking EU membership supported by Britain to combat the Franco-german alliane over the EU. This is why Britain is so pro-Turkey.


So I ask you again, why do you think it is childish when greece speaks up for its own intrests?

Elias2
08-10-10, 01:32
Hello,
let me introduce myself, I'm Atanas from Skopje, Macedonia.

I can tell you a little over the Macedonian-Greek issue. It dates back from the period of the late 19th - early 20th century, when Macedonia was still an Ottoman province

All indepdent countries / kingdoms at that time, were trying to place their education and languages in the schools and churches all over Macedonia: Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek, in order to expell the Turks from Macedonia and the conquer much more land for themselves.
If reason for the First Balkan War was the end of the Turks in Europe, then the Second one was for the division of Macedonia between Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece (please see Aegean, Vardar, Pirin parts of Macedonia). What is today's Republic of Macedonia is used to be the Vardar part which was given to Kingdom of Serbia, later Yugoslavia.
The problem with Greece is the following: Greece has almost half of ethnical-geographical Macedonia into Greek borders, has expelled, brutally by force or killed over 500.000 ethnic Macedonians from that region. Today there are many of them living in Macedonia, Bulgaria, Australia, USA/Canada and Poland, which still cannot enter Greece to visit their parents native places. Greek government denies the existense of Macedonians, therefore no Macedonian can be spoken in the Greek schools, although the Macedonian language is widely spoken in large areas of north Greece.

That's the main reason why Macedonia has become Greek since 1980 and why Republic of Macedonia today is not a NATO member country.

I don't know weather you are lying activley or just don't know better from what I see you are taught in FYROM schools. The first balkan war was Bulgaria-Serbia-Greece kicking Turkey out of the balkans. The Second one started when Bulgaria thought it deserved more land because it had alot of bulgarian nationalists in lands going to serbia and greece. They procceded to attack serbian and greek army posts until they were stoped when Romania enter the war against them form the north. Greece has Greek macedonia in its baorders which coiencides with the ancient greek city state of Macedon, more or less. While it is true Greece then forced slavic people out of the land, they did not call themselves "macedonians", nor think of themselves as "macedonians", these were bulgarian nationalists seeking a "Greater Bulgaria" Stop telling lies. greece denies the excistance of a macedonian ethnicity because there isn't one. There are slavic people living in a country they called macedonia, but they are still slavic.

Aristander
08-10-10, 03:55
This bantering back and forth is exactly why I continue to worry about the bitterness and petty nationalism that occurs around the disaster of the former Yugoslavia. I am afraid that it will not end until each one of the ethnic regions builds a wall around the territory they claim and forces out any other ethnic group in their territory.
I don't think it will end until the people in the area decide that they are tired of the bitterness and decide to join into a greater European community.

Elias2
08-10-10, 04:44
This bantering back and forth is exactly why I continue to worry about the bitterness and petty nationalism that occurs around the disaster of the former Yugoslavia. I am afraid that it will not end until each one of the ethnic regions builds a wall around the territory they claim and forces out any other ethnic group in their territory.
I don't think it will end until the people in the area decide that they are tired of the bitterness and decide to join into a greater European community.

I call it the balkan circus, no one respecs anyone in the balkans, everyone claims outrageous things, and no one respects boarders.

It's not that Yugoslavia fell apart that was bad, it was the caotic way it happened, and the very rushed way of carving up the different pieces. Now you have in bosia 1.5 million serbs who want to seperate in republic serbska, you have 25% of the population of FYROM as albanians who were caught at the boarder smuggling weapons into the country. You have nationalistic propaganda from FYROM claiming greek and balgarian land. You have Turkey sending warplanes over greek islands, and large amount of illegal immigration pouring in through Thrace, and you had the a whole province in serbia stripped away from it by a people that already have a country.

LeBrok
08-10-10, 06:57
Through the history the nations, ethnicities and borders where moved all over the Balkans, and most of Europe. Many people still long and demand the border of their countries at it's largest extend. That would always infringe on demands of maximum borders from the neighbors. It cannot be solved without conflict, or war, then another one and so on...
It's time to forget about the past demands, and settle in today's borders. We shall all be better working and trading together, than bickering about lost square kilometers. It's time to stop ridiculing neighbors, but embracing them and their differences instead.
The Europe will be more peaceful and prosperous, the borders will open, and people can mingle and enjoy neighbours companion.
Isn't it better than dwelling on lost things in the past and to make a war? Why would you want to start the conflict, kill a million of your neighbors to increase a size of you country few thousand of square kilometers? Will it solve the problem? Then in hundred years your neighbor will get stronger, attack and kill to take the land back. And they might think it's finely over...
We have to make final decision and settle in today's borders, and make the best of it. Prosperity of countries nowadays doesn't depend on much land anymore, as it was in past. Even if you in smaller country that you want to be, you can make it rich, successful, open and free. All you have to do is embracing today's science and economy as the driving forces.
Give your neighbors a chance, they are good people too.

Maciamo
08-10-10, 10:01
Through the history the nations, ethnicities and borders where moved all over the Balkans, and most of Europe. Many people still long and demand the border of their countries at it's largest extend. That would always infringe on demands of maximum borders from the neighbors. It cannot be solved without conflict, or war, then another one and so on...

This is also childish. Belgium has its fair share of inter-linguistic conflicts, but French and Dutch speakers never try to claim each others territory past the linguistic divide. Where people speak Flemish it's Flanders; where they speak French, it's Wallonia. Brussels was created as a separate region because it is pluri-linguistic. I can't imagine Walloons trying to claim the Flemish province of Limburg because it was historically a fief of the Principality of Liège ! It has always been Flemish speaking, so it makes sense that it should be part of Flanders.

The only territorial problem in Belgium relates to Brussels. The national capital is historically located in Flanders, but has been predominantly French-speaking for over 150 years. The autonomous region of Brussels was created in 1989 with predominantly French-speaking municipalities surrounding the historical core of the city. Unfortunately, politicians decided not include a few municipalities on the outskirts that were over 50% French-speaking. Some of them are now over 90% Francophone and request to right to join the Brussels region, as should have been done back in 1989. As these are all rich municipalities and Flanders doesn't want to let them go and lose their tax revenues, this problem causes a lot of frictions. But there is no way it could cause a war or major upheavals.

Now why is it that people in the Balkans cannot sit around a table and discuss their problems rationally between neighbours, instead of killing each others ?

barbarian
08-10-10, 12:47
i am always amazed to see how the great greece civilization could turn into such a shallow nationalist, lazy country. Instead of shaping new ıdeas and prooving that they are sons of those ancient gods, they are just messing other countries. one day people will get bored of them.

Elias2
08-10-10, 14:30
This is also childish. Belgium has its fair share of inter-linguistic conflicts, but French and Dutch speakers never try to claim each others territory past the linguistic divide. Where people speak Flemish it's Flanders; where they speak French, it's Wallonia. Brussels was created as a separate region because it is pluri-linguistic. I can't imagine Walloons trying to claim the Flemish province of Limburg because it was historically a fief of the Principality of Liège ! It has always been Flemish speaking, so it makes sense that it should be part of Flanders.

The only territorial problem in Belgium relates to Brussels. The national capital is historically located in Flanders, but has been predominantly French-speaking for over 150 years. The autonomous region of Brussels was created in 1989 with predominantly French-speaking municipalities surrounding the historical core of the city. Unfortunately, politicians decided not include a few municipalities on the outskirts that were over 50% French-speaking. Some of them are now over 90% Francophone and request to right to join the Brussels region, as should have been done back in 1989. As these are all rich municipalities and Flanders doesn't want to let them go and lose their tax revenues, this problem causes a lot of frictions. But there is no way it could cause a war or major upheavals.

Now why is it that people in the Balkans cannot sit around a table and discuss their problems rationally between neighbours, instead of killing each others ?

The problem is in your last paragraph. Albanians, Macedonians, and Turks are not rational. They do whatever they want.

Albania is controled by the mofia and do illegal drug and arms trading to their neighbooring countries like kosovo, albanians in FYROM, and in greece. FYROM's propaganda is rediculous and they can't meet half way with greece because they've taken it too far already. And Turkey, well barbarians post sums it up. They care only about themselves, and bully every one of their neighbours. They can't even come to terms with what they did to the armernian population 100 years ago. "barbarian" is a suitable name. I think Greece should shoot down the next turkish plane over a greek island and extend their territorial water boarder to 12 km which is their international right.

The problem I have with the way you think maciamo is you take a more civilized debate like the one going on in Bulgium where people listen to each other and debate it and apply it to the balkans where it is the opposite. The EU should put more pressure on these countries to not break international law.

Let me put it this way. International law was broken when kosovo became an independant country because it disregarded serbias sovereign rights over its territory. So why can't republic of serbska do the same? double standards?

Balkan circus

barbarian
08-10-10, 20:49
The problem is in your last paragraph. Albanians, Macedonians, and Turks are not rational. They do whatever they want.

They care only about themselves, and bully every one of their neighbours.

I think Greece should shoot down the next turkish plane over a greek island and extend their territorial water boarder to 12 km which is their international right.

"barbarian" is a suitable name.

:useless: your own words answers yourself.

you cannot be the sons of socrates.

barbarian
08-10-10, 21:38
4610
this foto is from one of our vacations. the island behind us is a greek island (meis) and 1.3 km from Kas-turkey. 12 km of territorial water boarder would make us really brothers and sisters. :rolleyes2:
4611
and this one shows some greek islands and 6 km of territorial water boarder. i believe 6 km is even more than enough.

Elias2
08-10-10, 22:12
4610
this foto is from one of our vacations. the island behind us is a greek island (meis) and 1.3 km from Kas-turkey. 12 km of territorial water boarder would make us really brothers and sisters. :rolleyes2:
4611
and this one shows some greek islands and 6 km of territorial water boarder. i believe 6 km is even more than enough.

You obviously have no idea how water boundaries work, and what happens when two water boundaries meet. Maybe you should look it up before you continue to make a fool of yourself. And it its not your right to decide what greece thinks it is acceptable for its boundaries, espacially its internation right to these boundaries. This is a classic example of how Turkey doesn't respect international law or Greeces Sovereignty.

Then again it is not in Turkey's best interest to adhear to international law, because if they did the following would happen:

1. The cyprus issue would be resolved, and the island would unify. International Court of Justice ruled the invasion illegal a long time ago.
2. Recognition of the Armenian genocide
3. Rights to its Kurdish population and other minorities
4. the recognition to Greeces international right of 12 km maritime boarder, and the hault of illegal warplanes flying over Greece
5. Free speach and freedom of expression for all inside of Turkey, which means children won't go to jail because they choose to speak their indiginous language of Kurdish.

Turkey might become a decent country if these were to happen, sadly, they choose the regional bully title insted.

barbarian
08-10-10, 22:51
You obviously have no idea how water boundaries work, and what happens when two water boundaries meet. Maybe you should look it up before you continue to make a fool of yourself. And it its not your right to decide what greece thinks it is acceptable for its boundaries. This is a classic example of why there are problems with unrational/uneducated neighbours.
well, no need to answer.

Elias2
08-10-10, 23:15
well, no need to answer.

After looking at the map you posted, there are islands in the middle of the agean with a differnt colour shade that the greek ones. I don't read turkish but are these islands Turkey thinks it has claim to?

No wonder you are so confused about this issue! The only islands turkey owns in the agean are off the north west part of turkey, Gokceada and Bozcaada!

barbarian
08-10-10, 23:23
5. Free speach and freedom of expression for all inside of Turkey, which means children won't go to jail because they choose to speak their indiginous language of Kurdish.


i decided not to argue with you any more. and i am already sad that i write too much in such a unrelated topic. but, i must say that it is free to speak kurdish in turkey. there is even an official kurdish tv.

Elias2
09-10-10, 00:09
i decided not to argue with you any more. and i am already sad that i write too much in such a unrelated topic. but, i must say that it is free to speak kurdish in turkey. there is even an official kurdish tv.

How do you explain this then?

BBC News, Istanbul: Young, Kurdish & jailed in Turkey!


“Turkish society has a kind of paranoia about disintegration, secession,” says Ergon Ozbudun, one of the country’s most renowned legal scholars, who has long pushed for reform of the military-drafted constitution.”In the minds of many Turks a strong state, with a strong hand, is a must. In Europe and elsewhere in the Western world, the judiciary is primarily the protector and guarantor of individual rights and liberties. Here the picture is reversed; the judiciary is the protector and guarantor of the official ideology and the dominance of the state.”Hundreds of children in Turkey’s Kurdish south-east have been jailed for taking part in anti-government protests, and are treated no differently from adults.
Berivan Sayaca is an attractive, 15-year-old Kurdish girl with black, wavy hair who loves horse-riding and playing the guitar.
She is also a convicted terrorist – serving an eight-year sentence in the high-security prison in Diyarbakir, the largest Kurdish city in Turkey. How she got there is a tale that could be straight out of Kafka, that exposes one of modern Turkey’s darkest sides."


They say she is a terrorist, how can a child know what a terrorist even is? I cannot post the URL because I havn't posted enough in this forum to do so, but you can check it out on google.

barbarian
09-10-10, 10:11
How do you explain this then?

BBC News, Istanbul: Young, Kurdish & jailed in Turkey!


“Turkish society has a kind of paranoia about disintegration, secession,” says Ergon Ozbudun, one of the country’s most renowned legal scholars, who has long pushed for reform of the military-drafted constitution.”In the minds of many Turks a strong state, with a strong hand, is a must. In Europe and elsewhere in the Western world, the judiciary is primarily the protector and guarantor of individual rights and liberties. Here the picture is reversed; the judiciary is the protector and guarantor of the official ideology and the dominance of the state.”Hundreds of children in Turkey’s Kurdish south-east have been jailed for taking part in anti-government protests, and are treated no differently from adults.
Berivan Sayaca is an attractive, 15-year-old Kurdish girl with black, wavy hair who loves horse-riding and playing the guitar.
She is also a convicted terrorist – serving an eight-year sentence in the high-security prison in Diyarbakir, the largest Kurdish city in Turkey. How she got there is a tale that could be straight out of Kafka, that exposes one of modern Turkey’s darkest sides."


They say she is a terrorist, how can a child know what a terrorist even is? I cannot post the URL because I havn't posted enough in this forum to do so, but you can check it out on google.
i cannot see nothing there like she is jailed because of her kurdish language.
in that part of turkey parents do not want to send their daughters to school and for this reason goverment pay money if they send their child to the school. goverment also give them "green card" so that they can meet all of their medical issues free. they dont pay for electricity also.

and here is the trt şeş: natinal kurdish tv. turkish PM is on the screen
4612

note: father of my grandfather is kurdish.

Elias2
09-10-10, 16:18
i cannot see nothing there like she is jailed because of her kurdish language.
in that part of turkey parents do not want to send their daughters to school and for this reason goverment pay money if they send their child to the school. goverment also give them "green card" so that they can meet all of their medical issues free. they dont pay for electricity also.

and here is the trt şeş: natinal kurdish tv. turkish PM is on the screen
4612

note: father of my grandfather is kurdish.

Read the rest of the article, it says she was jailed for standing up to your government in the face of repression. They then accused her of having links to the PKK to throw her in jail. I'm willing to bet that Kurdish TV station is controled by the government, or at least influence heavily by.

I feel bad for the Kurds. The Turkish government have by repressing them for 100 years now. They were told if they go and kill Armenians en messe that they would be rewarded with a country called Kurdistan. Insted after the blood was spilled, your governemnt said no, labeled them as "mountain turks" and have activley trying to assimulate them into turkish society ever since. I remember when your president Erdgoran on his trip to Germany said that it is a crime to assimulate turkish people into german society, yet Turkey have been doing that for 100 years now! The hypocrasy of turkey knows no limits!

If your great grand-father was kurdish, and lived in the eastern half of what is now turkey, he more than likely saw, or even took part in the genocide.

I don't want Turkey and Greece to continue to have hostile relations with each other, but really its because of your government that it remains this way, in cyprus and in the agean. Its up to Turkey when they want to hold out a hand to greece of friendship, greece will be waiting to shake it back.

barbarian
09-10-10, 18:18
Hello,

The problem with Greece is the following: Greece has almost half of ethnical-geographical Macedonia into Greek borders, has expelled, brutally by force or killed over 500.000 ethnic Macedonians from that region. Today there are many of them living in Macedonia, Bulgaria, Australia, USA/Canada and Poland, which still cannot enter Greece to visit their parents native places. Greek government denies the existense of Macedonians, therefore no Macedonian can be spoken in the Greek schools, although the Macedonian language is widely spoken in large areas of north Greece.


you may feel sad for them also, since you are such a humanist.

Elias2
09-10-10, 22:27
you may feel sad for them also, since you are such a humanist.

I do, I don't like it when anyone is forced from their homes, like in the cases of northern cyprus, pontus, the 1955 Pogrom of Constantinople (I have a friend whos Grandmother was forced out of Constantinople), armenia, or kurdish villiages. There are a couple of things to remember about these "macedonians" who were expelled from greece:

1. They did not refer to themselves as or have a national councesness as being "macedonians" These people at the time of the Balkans Wars were Bulgarian nationalists envisioning a "Greater Bulgaria". This is the reasoning for the second balkan war which occured right after the first, when Bulgaria attacked serbian and greek military posts. Bulgaria went on to lose the war which gave the Vardar river Region to Yugoslavia, and the bulgarians living in it, which leads me to my next point.

2. There are no such thing as a seperate macedonian ethnicity. The people of FYROM are closely related to bulgaria and Serbia, the southern slavic peoples. All three said countries are apart of thr slavic union organisation. If you look at old Ottoman ethnographic maps of the Balkan region at the time or prior, there is no seperate "macedonian" people labeled. Interestly enough, there is no seperate "turk" label either, just muslims. The idea of being "Macedonian" was an idea of communist Yugoslavia, and Tito's vision of seperate republics inside of Yugoslavia.

The difference between what happened to these people and the people of asia minor is the Greek government doesn't throw peopel in jail for talking about it. In Turkey anything pro armenian or pro kurdish is seen as a crime, or in the case of the armenian journalist, a death warrent. Greece doesn't try to hide that these things happen or try to alter history, something Turkey can learn from.

Gusar
10-10-10, 09:50
It would be interesting to see, when the Slavs in region of Macedonia began to use name Macedonians for themselves. As I know, in 19th century they were mostly defined as Bulgarians, and in northwestern part of nowadays Macedonia as Serbs. The name Macedonians for Slavs in region of Macedonia was introduced in late 19th century. It was rather artificial designation for people with undefined national identity.
The same thing happened with Muslim Slavs of Bosnia who usurped name of state Bosnia and designated themselves as Bosniaks today.


Oh I like this explanation.

Maciamo it seemed childish to me for a long time also but then I realised that identity theft goes beyond issues of childishness.

barbarian
10-10-10, 16:07
I do, I don't like it when anyone is forced from their homes,

then why dont you add greece to this sentence?
"Albanians, Macedonians, and Turks are not rational. They do whatever they want..."

because you can just see what your people wanted to show you, just like turkish people in my country. that is why you are not anymore great greece culture.

Elias2
10-10-10, 17:02
then why dont you add greece to this sentence?
"Albanians, Macedonians, and Turks are not rational. They do whatever they want..."

because you can just see what your people wanted to show you, just like turkish people in my country. that is why you are not anymore great greece culture.

Please explain what you mean by "you see what your people wanted to show you". I don't deny that slavs were forced from their homes during the balkan wars, how am I denying this? Or how am I trying to say it wasn't the right thing to do to these people? Do you deny the Armenian genocide happened? do you deny tens of thousands of ethnic greeks were forced from from their homes in asia minor and constantinople? where they had inhabeted for 3 thousand years?

Albanians, Macedonians, and Turks are not rational to solve the problems of today. They do whatever they want. Turkey claims islands in the agean based on nothing, they send warplanes over greek islands illegally. Northern Cyprus and the illegal occupation of the west bank (palestine) are the same thing, turkey supports the palestinians but turns a blind eye to what they do in northern cyprus, hypocrasy. Turkey threatens war with greece if they get their international right to 12 km maritime boundaries. Who is warmongering here? Greece or Turkey?

barbarian
10-10-10, 21:45
"you see what your people wanted to show you" means you speak like politicians in turkey and in greece, i have tons of friends who look at the cases subjective just like you. they see turkey completely maltreated, while they see greece as an enemy. i am sure you would be the same if you were turkish.

in history, turkman came from their native lands to anatolia and europe because of they were hungry and wild. there was an "empire" in anatolia which was weak and couldnt defend their lands, the new ruler let them live in their cities for hundreds of years without problem together with arbics,caucasians, armenians, and kurds. after the french revolution together with the down of ottomans, lots of small countries emerged. and you kicked us out of balkan. (what do you expect in that period, when you kicked us out of balkan: to be brothers and sisters in anatolia?) so all the frozen problems through the years are melting down now. and we have our share with kurds, cyprus and armenians.

we do not claim anything about your islands. and it is better you forget about your constantinopolis. and never forget in 500 years under ottoman you didnt need to change your religion, and nobody killed you. while lots of luvvi were killed in anatolia because they didnt want to be christian in byzantium period.

so elias no body is angel. the problem is some people must be objective to find a way out of this mess, instead of saying we were innocent the rest was aliens.

Elias2
10-10-10, 23:08
"you see what your people wanted to show you" means you speak like politicians in turkey and in greece, i have tons of friends who look at the cases subjective just like you. they see turkey completely maltreated, while they see greece as an enemy. i am sure you would be the same if you were turkish.

in history, turkman came from their native lands to anatolia and europe because of they were hungry and wild. there was an "empire" in anatolia which was weak and couldnt defend their lands, the new ruler let them live in their cities for hundreds of years without problem together with arbics,caucasians, armenians, and kurds. after the french revolution together with the down of ottomans, lots of small countries emerged. and you kicked us out of balkan. (what do you expect in that period, when you kicked us out of balkan: to be brothers and sisters in anatolia?) so all the frozen problems through the years are melting down now. and we have our share with kurds, cyprus and armenians.

we do not claim anything about your islands. and it is better you forget about your constantinopolis. and never forget in 500 years under ottoman you didnt need to change your religion, and nobody killed you. while lots of luvvi were killed in anatolia because they didnt want to be christian in byzantium period.

so elias no body is angel. the problem is some people must be objective to find a way out of this mess, instead of saying we were innocent the rest was aliens.

Please can you share the turkish side of the story concerning Turkey claiming islands in the agaen, which you do. Flying warplanes over greek territory and threatening war if Greece takes its international right to extend their boarders to 12 km. I want to know the turkish side of why they continue to support the illigal occupation of northern cyprus while critisizing isreal for doing the same in the west bank. I want to know how and where the turks feel "maltreated" by the evil greeks. You say I talk like a politician, I say you talk like a puppet of your government, incapable of thinking objectivly and buying into the dogmas poured out from ankara.

Wether you like it or not, Northern cyprus isn't permanent. The warmongering in the agean isn't going to last forever. We can sit down as people and discuss ways to stop your government from breaking international law or we can sit back and wait until these problems become to big to stop.

To greeks, it will always be Constantinople. I don't know why you feel threatened by this name. It was used up into the early 20th century. "Istanbul" is a creation of turkish nationalism. Do the Egyption call Alexandria something else than it is? Tripoli? other greek founded town in t he Mediterranean? Constantinople carries more weight than "istanbul" ever will.

I don't need a history lesson, I study it as school. We can talk all about the treatment of christians in a muslim empire in another topic.

barbarian
11-10-10, 00:22
Please can you share the turkish side of the story concerning Turkey claiming islands in the agaen, which you do. Flying warplanes over greek territory and threatening war if Greece takes its international right to extend their boarders to 12 km. I want to know the turkish side of why they continue to support the illigal occupation of northern cyprus while critisizing isreal for doing the same in the west bank. I want to know how and where the turks feel "maltreated" by the evil greeks. You say I talk like a politician, I say you talk like a puppet of your ....
....
i already said all i could say about all the topics you mentioned and i guess you too. i believe these problems will never be solved, if the goverments speak with each other like you and me do it.

anyway, thanks for share. :good_job:

see you in another life (or topic)

Elias2
11-10-10, 01:14
i already said all i could say about all the topics you mentioned and i guess you too. i believe these problems will never be solved, if the goverments speak with each other like you and me do it.

anyway, thanks for share. :good_job:

see you in another life (or topic)

No, you've said nothing about it, you just sidestep the issue cause you know turks are wrong, turks are wrong about denying the Armenian genocide, and Kurdish rights. You don't have an excuse for cyprus or agean, your're just like the rest of the turks, selfish and greedy, warmongering. I'm glad we had this convo, so every one who reads this can know what the greeks have to deal with for neighbours.

Aristander
11-10-10, 03:47
I think it can be solved, Greece and Turkey just need to have another war. But this time it ought to be limited to sticks and rocks, no vehicles, no aircraft, no fire arms, no ships, just bare hands and caveman weapons.
I am saying this as a tongue in cheek message. The reason is to point out exactly how primitive both of your complaints and reasons for these feelings are. It is something that goes beyond reason and is something that resides in both sides of this argument way down in your limbic systems. These are pure animal instincts and we as reasoning beings have to make conscious decisions not to act on these animal instincts and seek a higher level of thought.
We as human beings need to try and act with reason in a more mature manner and make conscious decisions to act that way.

barbarian
11-10-10, 07:08
I think it can be solved, Greece and Turkey just need to have another war. But this time it ought to be limited to sticks and rocks, no vehicles, no aircraft, no fire arms, no ships, just bare hands and caveman weapons.
I am saying this as a tongue in cheek message. The reason is to point out exactly how primitive both of your complaints and reasons for these feelings are. It is something that goes beyond reason and is something that resides in both sides of this argument way down in your limbic systems. These are pure animal instincts and we as reasoning beings have to make conscious decisions not to act on these animal instincts and seek a higher level of thought.
We as human beings need to try and act with reason in a more mature manner and make conscious decisions to act that way.

just like 70 years ago in europe? or like in iraq?

LeBrok
11-10-10, 07:32
No, you've said nothing about it, you just sidestep the issue cause you know turks are wrong, turks are wrong about denying the Armenian genocide, and Kurdish rights. You don't have an excuse for cyprus or agean, your're just like the rest of the turks, selfish and greedy, warmongering. I'm glad we had this convo, so every one who reads this can know what the greeks have to deal with for neighbours.

This is ridiculous, barbarian is not Turkish government to give you any official apologies. I'm sure he didn't take part personally in Armenian genocide too, and to be accused and be guilt of it.
Did Sparta officially apologise to Athens, or vice verse for the atrocities committed during long centuries of warfare? Did they really hated each other and kill with vengeance?
Are they friends now and proud citizens of one Greece?

"...your're just like the rest of the turks"
Now that's just a pure hatred to the whole nation. For this statement alone I kick you out of my Global Village.

barbarian
11-10-10, 08:32
i am sad that, turkish people did not contribute nothing when the human step on the moon, i also know that we dont have too much addition to the intellectual accumulation or civilization, however, my superego makes me love my country. just like everybody on this forum.

every reaction has its response. every country has his sins in their history. we were the conquerors and coming from wild lands, and it is normal that we were grimmer than others (see vikings, germens). In 21 century, turkey is trying to be a part of civilization. we work hard for it. we have too much hate around us as a heritage of our conqueror days. as a person, i would like to be a citizen of well civilized, and producing country. like europeans (but not european), or ancient greece (not todays greece).

EU can help us in this trip. they will also gain some advantages from it. eg. after loosing the control of petroleum to US and russia. they can, now with the help of turkey, reach emerging energy sources (kazakhistan etc.). or they can built stronger walls around them and call the outsiders as aliens.

Marianne
11-10-10, 11:52
Hello,
What is today's Republic of Macedonia is used to be the Vardar part which was given to Kingdom of Serbia, later Yugoslavia.
There is no recognized republic of macedonia. Only FYROM.


Greek government denies the existense of Macedonians, therefore no Macedonian can be spoken in the Greek schools, although the Macedonian language is widely spoken in large areas of north Greece.

There is no Macedonian language. Ancient Macedonians spoke Greek. Great Alexander (his name means protector (alex) of men (andres)) and his father Philipos (his name means friend (philos) of horses (ipos)) were Greek, spoke Greek and were born in the Greek area of the ancient territory called Macedonia. Their names mean nothing to your slavic language and therefore you cannot claim you speak "macedonian". You can claim you speak a slavic language called FYROMian or whatever you want to call it.

The only reason your country started having the idea of being Macedonia/Macedonians is because around 1945 a politician over there named Tito (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josip_Broz_Tito ring any bells?), who kicked out all Greeks residing in Yugoslavia and didn't permit them to go visit their place of birth and houses, decided that the idea of the Great Macedonia in the Balkans is great and he should impose it. The only reason you are called Macedonians is because some politicians thought that by implanting such ideas in your heads will create tension in the area and a country named like that would later give them reason to claim areas from Greece and Bulgaria. In your schools you all you are taught is propaganda. You should realize it and embrace your true identity and not try to pretend you are someone else. The idea that you decent from Great Alexander and his empire may make you feel that you belong somewhere and have glorious ancestors, but if you were decedents of his empire you would be speaking Greek and not Slavic. What you used to be is a part of Yugoslavia (meaning the land of south Slavs http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Yugoslavia) and therefore you are a Slavic nation.

I totally agree with Elias2 and his posts. If some people think that Greece is over reacting and we should be more rational you are wrong. We are as rational as it can get. In the past we wouldn't even consider allowing a name that contains the word Macedonia for the former state of Yugoslavia that used to be called Vardarska (the original name before the propaganda and idea of Great Macedonia). Now our country keeps proposing names and we eventually agreed with the name North Macedonia, that will eliminate every thought of FYROM expanding it's boarders to Bulgaria and Greece, and they don't even agree to that. Talk about rationality from their side...

In Greece we have a saying: if you let the savage in your garden he will eventually climb to your bed and claim your wife (loose translation). That is what is happening here. We are backing off constantly and they aren't, not even a little. If you want to talk about rationality address to FYROM and not Greece.

My country is facing the danger of losing it's territorial integrity from the North by FYROM and the idea of Great Macedonia, from the North-East in Thrace (150.000 turks living in Greece and only 2.000 Greeks living in Constantinople while the Lausanne treaty clearly states that the amount of Greeks and Turks in Turkey and Greece must be kept equal and Turkey has kicked out the majority of Greeks during the last 50 years, see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25545) and from the East at the Aegean (USA already calls the Aegean a "gray zone", which is clearly Greek area, just to please Turkey so they can help them with their plans in the Middle East) with Turkey constantly claiming Greek territories as Turkish, violating our boarders with their air force and not letting us claim our international right of 12km by threat of war.

Yet we are the bad ones here.
What is EU doing with all these matters that a country-member faces? Nothing.

Those of you who think that a few km of territory don't make a difference you are right but what we are talking about here is almost 1/3 of Greece being claimed by others. And if your country is in the middle of peaceful Europe or in it's own continent and can't really understand what it means to have other countries next to you claiming your land because you are at the boarders of your continent then I advise you to think better before posting your opinion without a little bit of research on that is going on.

PS. If you think my post is a bit aggressive it's because you are guys and never had PMS :rolleyes2:

Elias2
11-10-10, 15:07
This is ridiculous, barbarian is not Turkish government to give you any official apologies. I'm sure he didn't take part personally in Armenian genocide too, and to be accused and be guilt of it.
Did Sparta officially apologise to Athens, or vice verse for the atrocities committed during long centuries of warfare? Did they really hated each other and kill with vengeance?
Are they friends now and proud citizens of one Greece?

"...your're just like the rest of the turks"
Now that's just a pure hatred to the whole nation. For this statement alone I kick you out of my Global Village.

I asked for the turksih side of the story, which he is hesitant to give. I do not represent Greek government but I give the greek side. He is like the rest of the turks. He isn't the only turk I debated about this, they all have the "I'm the victim everywhere sydrom, and we have never done anything wrong" card. The law in turkey where it is illegal to mention genocide of any kind is a good example of this. He did not take part in the genocide, no, but not additming it happened, or saying that it wasn't wrong makes him an accomplise in crime. I don't know about your global village but the one I live in people break laws and should be punished for them.

Elias2
11-10-10, 15:19
There is no recognized republic of macedonia. Only FYROM.

There is no Macedonian language. Ancient Macedonians spoke Greek. Great Alexander (his name means protector (alex) of men (andres)) and his father Philipos (his name means friend (philos) of horses (ipos)) were Greek, spoke Greek and were born in the Greek area of the ancient territory called Macedonia. Their names mean nothing to your slavic language and therefore you cannot claim you speak "macedonian". You can claim you speak a slavic language called FYROMian or whatever you want to call it.

The only reason your country started having the idea of being Macedonia/Macedonians is because around 1945 a politician over there named Tito (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josip_Broz_Tito ring any bells?), who kicked out all Greeks residing in Yugoslavia and didn't permit them to go visit their place of birth and houses, decided that the idea of the Great Macedonia in the Balkans is great and he should impose it. The only reason you are called Macedonians is because some politicians thought that by implanting such ideas in your heads will create tension in the area and a country named like that would later give them reason to claim areas from Greece and Bulgaria. In your schools you all you are taught is propaganda. You should realize it and embrace your true identity and not try to pretend you are someone else. The idea that you decent from Great Alexander and his empire may make you feel that you belong somewhere and have glorious ancestors, but if you were decedents of his empire you would be speaking Greek and not Slavic. What you used to be is a part of Yugoslavia (meaning the land of south Slavs http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Yugoslavia) and therefore you are a Slavic nation.

I totally agree with Elias2 and his posts. If some people think that Greece is over reacting and we should be more rational you are wrong. We are as rational as it can get. In the past we wouldn't even consider allowing a name that contains the word Macedonia for the former state of Yugoslavia that used to be called Vardarska (the original name before the propaganda and idea of Great Macedonia). Now our country keeps proposing names and we eventually agreed with the name North Macedonia, that will eliminate every thought of FYROM expanding it's boarders to Bulgaria and Greece, and they don't even agree to that. Talk about rationality from their side...

In Greece we have a saying: if you let the savage in your garden he will eventually climb to your bed and claim your wife (loose translation). That is what is happening here. We are backing off constantly and they aren't, not even a little. If you want to talk about rationality address to FYROM and not Greece.

My country is facing the danger of losing it's territorial integrity from the North by FYROM and the idea of Great Macedonia, from the North-East in Thrace (150.000 turks living in Greece and only 2.000 Greeks living in Constantinople while the Lausanne treaty clearly states that the amount of Greeks and Turks in Turkey and Greece must be kept equal and Turkey has kicked out the majority of Greeks during the last 50 years, see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25545) and from the East at the Aegean (USA already calls the Aegean a "gray zone", which is clearly Greek area, just to please Turkey so they can help them with their plans in the Middle East) with Turkey constantly claiming Greek territories as Turkish, violating our boarders with their air force and not letting us claim our international right of 12km by threat of war.

Yet we are the bad ones here.
What is EU doing with all these matters that a country-member faces? Nothing.

Those of you who think that a few km of territory don't make a difference you are right but what we are talking about here is almost 1/3 of Greece being claimed by others. And if your country is in the middle of peaceful Europe or in it's own continent and can't really understand what it means to have other countries next to you claiming your land because you are at the boarders of your continent then I advise you to think better before posting your opinion without a little bit of research on that is going on.

PS. If you think my post is a bit aggressive it's because you are guys and never had PMS :rolleyes2:

I don't know why the rest of europe and america supports albanians, "macedonians", and turks as much as they do, maybe it has to do with geo politics. As an ally of both world wars, and the cold war, they are shafting greece everywhere. Maybe they realized that the way they broke up Yugoslavia only created more problems and they want to sweep it under the rug as fast as possible.

I agree with your last statement about having a perspective of western europe or, like Le Borke, a Canadian. They don't know what its like to have nationalistic-propagandic neighbours.

Elias2
11-10-10, 15:33
I think it can be solved, Greece and Turkey just need to have another war. But this time it ought to be limited to sticks and rocks, no vehicles, no aircraft, no fire arms, no ships, just bare hands and caveman weapons.
I am saying this as a tongue in cheek message. The reason is to point out exactly how primitive both of your complaints and reasons for these feelings are. It is something that goes beyond reason and is something that resides in both sides of this argument way down in your limbic systems. These are pure animal instincts and we as reasoning beings have to make conscious decisions not to act on these animal instincts and seek a higher level of thought.
We as human beings need to try and act with reason in a more mature manner and make conscious decisions to act that way.

How about you start with the people actually breaking international laws. This would be nice.

barbarian
11-10-10, 21:27
Well, in fact, I didn’t want to engage this topic with Greece-turkey issues, but I guess it is too late now and although I am not a specialist on such a complex case, I feel like I must find some answers for such claims.

About agean sea, the limit was 3 miles in lozan, then Greece decided to extend it to 6 miles and turkey did not object it (according to 6 miles %48,85of agean is international waters;43,68 of it belongs to greece and %7,47 of agean belongs to turkey). After 1959 with respect to the international treaty of sea laws (UN) greece increased its territory limits to 12 miles (according to this limits the above ratios will be %26.1; %63.9 and %10).

Greece applied to International Court of justice (1978) for the case and court couldnt reach and agreement. Greece insist on 12 miles and turkey objects it and gives the references of the Tunusia –libia (1982) north sea (1969), US-Canada (1974) and England-France (1977) cases.

About cyprus, in july 1974 some greek soldiers charged in cyprus and cyprus soldiers made a putsch (?) with help of greek junta against makarios (in that period cyprus was one country). And these putschist killed around 2000 cyprus citizens (turks and roman). Their aim was to join greece as cyprus (see Makarios, who is not Turkish, speech at UN Security counsel at 19 july 1974). In that period turkey, Greece and England was the guarantor of the treaty of Cyprus. And turkey invaded 1/3 of Cyprus where the population was mostly Turkish.

In 2008, Turkish side of Cyprus accepted the Annan plan which would make the Cyprus again 1 country. But roman side didn’t accept it.

So, what is your opinions?

barbarian
11-10-10, 21:32
Hello,
The problem with Greece is the following: Greece has almost half of ethnical-geographical Macedonia into Greek borders, has expelled, brutally by force or killed over 500.000 ethnic Macedonians from that region. Today there are many of them living in Macedonia, Bulgaria, Australia, USA/Canada and Poland, which still cannot enter Greece to visit their parents native places. Greek government denies the existense of Macedonians, therefore no Macedonian can be spoken in the Greek schools, although the Macedonian language is widely spoken in large areas of north Greece.


and can anybody explain this?

Elias2
11-10-10, 22:31
Well, in fact, I didn’t want to engage this topic with Greece-turkey issues, but I guess it is too late now and although I am not a specialist on such a complex case, I feel like I must find some answers for such claims.

About agean sea, the limit was 3 miles in lozan, then Greece decided to extend it to 6 miles and turkey did not object it (according to 6 miles %48,85of agean is international waters;43,68 of it belongs to greece and %7,47 of agean belongs to turkey). After 1959 with respect to the international treaty of sea laws (UN) greece increased its territory limits to 12 miles (according to this limits the above ratios will be %26.1; %63.9 and %10).

Greece applied to International Court of justice (1978) for the case and court couldnt reach and agreement. Greece insist on 12 miles and turkey objects it and gives the references of the Tunusia –libia (1982) north sea (1969), US-Canada (1974) and England-France (1977) cases.

About cyprus, in july 1974 some greek soldiers charged in cyprus and cyprus soldiers made a putsch (?) with help of greek junta against makarios (in that period cyprus was one country). And these putschist killed around 2000 cyprus citizens (turks and roman). Their aim was to join greece as cyprus (see Makarios, who is not Turkish, speech at UN Security counsel at 19 july 1974). In that period turkey, Greece and England was the guarantor of the treaty of Cyprus. And turkey invaded 1/3 of Cyprus where the population was mostly Turkish.

In 2008, Turkish side of Cyprus accepted the Annan plan which would make the Cyprus again 1 country. But roman side didn’t accept it.

So, what is your opinions?

Turkey has no right to tell Greece what in can do. turkey is not greece, and Greece is not Turkey. If Greece wants 12 mile sea boarders, and signs the agreement which it has, it has the legal right to do so. Greece is not breaking any international laws in this respect. The other cases have no effect over the agean, Turkey is just looking for ways to hold Greece down. This is a example of turkey not respecting greece's international rights. Sending warplanes over greek islands is turkey looking for war.

Greeks wanted to make Cyprus apart of greece. With 88% of the island greek it made sence. Turkey then invaded the island which was deemed illegal by the international court of Jutice and Northern Cyprus untill today is not recognised around the world.

Elias2
11-10-10, 22:33
and can anybody explain this?

I already did explain this many, many times in my posts. If you choose not to read my posts its your own fault. It seems to me barbarian you go in circles, because you can't justify Turkey's actions.

barbarian
11-10-10, 23:15
I do, I don't like it when anyone is forced from their homes, like in the cases of northern cyprus, pontus, the 1955 Pogrom of Constantinople (I have a friend whos Grandmother was forced out of Constantinople), armenia, or kurdish villiages. There are a couple of things to remember about these "macedonians" who were expelled from greece:

1. They did not refer to themselves as or have a national councesness as being "macedonians" These people at the time of the Balkans Wars were Bulgarian nationalists envisioning a "Greater Bulgaria". This is the reasoning for the second balkan war which occured right after the first, when Bulgaria attacked serbian and greek military posts. Bulgaria went on to lose the war which gave the Vardar river Region to Yugoslavia, and the bulgarians living in it, which leads me to my next point.

2. There are no such thing as a seperate macedonian ethnicity. The people of FYROM are closely related to bulgaria and Serbia, the southern slavic peoples. All three said countries are apart of thr slavic union organisation. If you look at old Ottoman ethnographic maps of the Balkan region at the time or prior, there is no seperate "macedonian" people labeled. Interestly enough, there is no seperate "turk" label either, just muslims. The idea of being "Macedonian" was an idea of communist Yugoslavia, and Tito's vision of seperate republics inside of Yugoslavia.

The difference between what happened to these people and the people of asia minor is the Greek government doesn't throw peopel in jail for talking about it. In Turkey anything pro armenian or pro kurdish is seen as a crime, or in the case of the armenian journalist, a death warrent. Greece doesn't try to hide that these things happen or try to alter history, something Turkey can learn from.
your answer is this. but, you didnt explain if:
-greece killed or expelled over 500.000 ethnic Macedonians from that region,
-makedonians still cannot enter Greece to visit their parents native places,
-no Macedonian can be spoken in the Greek schools

and marianne says "There is no Macedonian language" so what is that language that atanas speaks about&

Elias2
11-10-10, 23:22
your answer is this. but, you didnt explain if:
-greece killed or expelled over 500.000 ethnic Macedonians from that region,
-makedonians still cannot enter Greece to visit their parents native places,
-no Macedonian can be spoken in the Greek schools

and marianne says "There is no Macedonian language" so what is that language that atanas speaks about&

"Macedonians" speak Bulgarian. Greece expelled 500,000 bulgarian nationalists to Vardar bovina and bulgaria. I explained this aswell. "Macedonians" can speak whatever they want and go wherever they want.

barbarian
11-10-10, 23:23
Turkey has no right to tell Greece what in can do. turkey is not greece, and Greece is not Turkey. If Greece wants 12 mile sea boarders, and signs the agreement which it has, it has the legal right to do so. Greece is not breaking any international laws in this respect. The other cases have no effect over the agean, Turkey is just looking for ways to hold Greece down. This is a example of turkey not respecting greece's international rights. Sending warplanes over greek islands is turkey looking for war.

Greeks wanted to make Cyprus apart of greece. With 88% of the island greek it made sence. Turkey then invaded the island which was deemed illegal by the international court of Jutice and Northern Cyprus untill today is not recognised around the world.
if 88%(?) is enough to decide why do you complain about kurdish minority in turkey

Elias2
11-10-10, 23:30
if 88%(?) is enough to decide why do you complain about kurdish minority in turkey

yes it was 88%, after turkey came in and displaced the greeks in the northern half they brought in turkish settlers to distort the population.

I complain about the treatment of Kurdish minority, which doesn't have a exact figure because the turkish government doesn't want to say, but estimates are kurds make up anywhere between 20-30% of turkey's population, concentrated in the south east of the country. Thats 15-20 million people, the largest group of peopel on earth that doesn't have a country for their own.

barbarian
11-10-10, 23:30
"Macedonians" speak Bulgarian. Greece expelled 500,000 bulgarian nationalists to Vardar bovina and bulgaria. I explained this aswell. "Macedonians" can speak whatever they want and go wherever they want.
ok. this explain everything.
(by the way http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language)

barbarian
11-10-10, 23:36
yes it was 88%, after turkey came in and displaced the greeks in the northern half they brought in turkish settlers to distort the population.

I complain about the treatment of Kurdish minority, which doesn't have a exact figure because the turkish government doesn't want to say, but estimates are kurds make up anywhere between 20-30% of turkey's population, concentrated in the south east of the country. Thats 15-20 million people, the largest group of peopel on earth that doesn't have a country for their own.
it is better to speak with you after you finish primary school

Elias2
11-10-10, 23:38
Yes it is a southern slavic dialect. Bulgarians and Macedonians are able to communicate very easily with one another.

Elias2
11-10-10, 23:38
it is better to speak with you after you finish primary school

Is this an insult or do you have nothing else to say?

barbarian
11-10-10, 23:47
Is this an insult or do you have nothing else to say?
what can i say?
you neglect a country, a language, you accept that you expelled and killed(?) 500.000 ppl and defend it, you dont let them see their families, you dont give them rights to educate in their language, you accept that majority can do anything they want. and finally come up with saying you worry about our minorities.

kurdish people have their own policital party and have about %5-6 vote (about4 million). they can speak their language, they can educate in kurdish.

Elias2
12-10-10, 00:35
what can i say?
you neglect a country, a language, you accept that you expelled and killed(?) 500.000 ppl and defend it, you dont let them see their families, you dont give them rights to educate in their language, you accept that majority can do anything they want. and finally come up with saying you worry about our minorities.

kurdish people have their own policital party and have about %5-6 vote (about4 million). they can speak their language, they can educate in kurdish.

"Macedonians" can say and go where ever they want, they can see whoever they want, they can learn whatever language they want. This person to claim otherwise is brainwashed from Skopian propaganda. Greece does not send warplanes over FYROM nor does it "neglect" it, on the contrary, Greece is FYROMs top investor in their country. If a greek talks about the expulsion of the slavic people during the balkan wars he does not go to jail, he does not have a death warrent either, in Turkey this is the opposite.

I can't believe your trying to compare the killing of 1.5 million armenians, 300,000-360,000 thousand greeks, and other christian minorites to the expultion of Bulgarian Nationalists to Vardar bovina and bulgaria. If turkey only expelled (not killed) the nationalists, there would have been no genocide. We are talking about two very different levels here.

Last time I heard about a kurdish political party it was banned for having connections to the PKK. Please tell me the name of this party so I can do some research on it. And don't try to hide it, there is a kurdish population in turkey (should I call them "mountain turks", would that help you better?) of about 20-30%.

Elias2
12-10-10, 03:33
Barbarian, listen, I don't want to debate this with you anymore, we've accompished nothing. Between Greece and Turkey right now, there are two issues, Cyprus and agean. I don't think turks understand that ottoman empire is over, it doesn't exist anymore. Turks don't have claim to cyprus anymore, or anything in the agean, it's greek again. You may act childish and try to inforce militarily but its not going anywhere. Ottoman is over, Turkey is your new country, you don't have say what goes on beyond your boarders. Greece doesn't claim any turkish territory, yet turks act like they're being invaded.

In the long run nothern Cyprus issue will be resolved and northern cyprus will not be anymore. Turkish warplanes will not be flying over greek islands forever, greece will have 12 miles maritime boarders. This will happen because Greece has international law behind it, its that simple. You can act childish about it or face reality. If you choose to act childish behind it to the bitter end Greece and turkey will have animosity for a long while after. If Turkey becomes mature about the issues and it happens sooner, Greeks and Turks may actually becomes friends (shocker!), its all up to turkey which of the two its going to be.

This is my last responce in this thread, I don't have anything more to say.

barbarian
12-10-10, 08:36
"Macedonians" can say and go where ever they want, they can see whoever they want, they can learn whatever language they want. This person to claim otherwise is brainwashed from Skopian propaganda. Greece does not send warplanes over FYROM nor does it "neglect" it, on the contrary, Greece is FYROMs top investor in their country.

you expelled 500 000 people (atanas said you killed them also), and dont let them see their families in your country. you accept it and then you can say that they can go anywhere they want.

If a greek talks about the expulsion of the slavic people during the balkan wars he does not go to jail, he does not have a death warrent either, in Turkey this is the opposite.

Kurdish party can speak anything it wants to speak, e.g. they say that they want to have autonomy and their own flag these days. they have their tv, education, political party. and nobody jailed them.
but may be we should expell them, since it is no problem.


I can't believe your trying to compare the killing of 1.5 million armenians, 300,000-360,000 thousand greeks, and other christian minorites to the expultion of Bulgarian Nationalists to Vardar bovina and bulgaria. If turkey only expelled (not killed) the nationalists, there would have been no genocide. We are talking about two very different levels here.

this 1,5 million is unclear yet, and must be solved with the help of historians. turkey accepts to have such a working group. if there was an illegal execution turkey must apologize as a heritage of ottomans.

what i dont understand is it normal to expell, if you dont kill.

and what is this 300/360.000 greece stuff? can you detail it?


Last time I heard about a kurdish political party it was banned for having connections to the PKK. Please tell me the name of this party so I can do some research on it.

"demokrat türkiye partisi" is closed. they have "barış ve demokrasi partisi" now.

And don't try to hide it, there is a kurdish population in turkey (should I call them "mountain turks", would that help you better?) of about 20-30%.

you are funny, nobody say them they are mountain turks, in contrast, we accept them as native settlers of anatolia. and nobody expell them. you dont even know their political party name, but still claim about their population with the help of google. again, they have a political party, and their vote is %4-5 (~4 million).

in my personel opinion, they should have their own country, although they never had it before in the history. (it will be under the control of US, just like Iraq under the control of England at the beginning of 20 th cent.)

atanas
12-10-10, 12:31
The Historical boundaries is not what this debate is about, even though FYROM posssses little of ancient Macedon pre-alexander, used to have. The problem is this notion of a "Greater macedonia", which they are actively taught in schools.


Their invented Identity post WW2 as "Macedonians" makes them think they have rights to Greek and Bulagrian Land, and Greek and Bulgarian History. And this I idea of a "greater macedonia" is what they are taught in schools and at home. Greece has no problem when they call themselves macedonians, but by having a country with the name "Republic of Macedonia" propagates ownership of foriegn land, which they pursue through propaganda like the one I just showed, and national rallies where they wave flags outlining their asperations.

This is why Greece cannot let it be. A simple "Northern", "New", or "Vardar" in the name would clearly differenciate it between Greek, or bulgarian macedonia. We see this used throughout the world in examples like northern Ireland and North Korea.

I won't get into the cultural and ethnic differences between these "Macedonians" and ancient Macedonians, which they claim they are decended from, even though they proclaim to be slavic aswell.

Why do you find it "childish" when Greeces neighboors infrienge on its sovereignty and Greece speaks up for itself?

The same goes with Turkey. Daily, Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace, and the Greek Airforce has to drive them back, airspace over greek owned islands. The same goes with the enlargment of greek territorial waters to 12 km offshore. Greek has the international right to do this yet Turkey threatens war with greek should they impose it in the Agean, yet they themselves claime 12 km off North and southern Turkey.

The same Turkish hypocracy can be found in the illegal occupation of Northern Cypus. Turkey frowns apound the palestinian occupation yet they themselves do the same. Turkey nor the enhabitants of northern cyprus want to reunify, they think if they prolong it they will get recongnised eventually, even though the ICJ ruled the invasion illegal. And pro Turkish plans like the "anna plan" undermines democracy and makes turkish votes more important than greek votes.

A country like turkey who breaks many international laws, and human rights should be facing sanctions but insted they are activley seeking EU membership supported by Britain to combat the Franco-german alliane over the EU. This is why Britain is so pro-Turkey.


So I ask you again, why do you think it is childish when greece speaks up for its own intrests?


How you a problem with Greater Macedonia, mine grandfather was from Salonica, my grandmother from Ajvatovo (what you call LITI), and the other grandparents from Rugunovec/Polykastro.

atanas
12-10-10, 14:22
And you can tell me again, that all that is ancient Greek lands ??? Greece has no minoroties, how can half the Salonica understands the language that I speak...

Last weeekend - a Salonikian sitting in Starbucks told me , SEDI (on Macedonian: SEAT)... od a chair ...

Elias2
12-10-10, 14:32
"Macedonians" can say and go where ever they want, they can see whoever they want, they can learn whatever language they want. This person to claim otherwise is brainwashed from Skopian propaganda. Greece does not send warplanes over FYROM nor does it "neglect" it, on the contrary, Greece is FYROMs top investor in their country.

you expelled 500 000 people (atanas said you killed them also), and dont let them see their families in your country. you accept it and then you can say that they can go anywhere they want.

If a greek talks about the expulsion of the slavic people during the balkan wars he does not go to jail, he does not have a death warrent either, in Turkey this is the opposite.

Kurdish party can speak anything it wants to speak, e.g. they say that they want to have autonomy and their own flag these days. they have their tv, education, political party. and nobody jailed them.
but may be we should expell them, since it is no problem.


I can't believe your trying to compare the killing of 1.5 million armenians, 300,000-360,000 thousand greeks, and other christian minorites to the expultion of Bulgarian Nationalists to Vardar bovina and bulgaria. If turkey only expelled (not killed) the nationalists, there would have been no genocide. We are talking about two very different levels here.

this 1,5 million is unclear yet, and must be solved with the help of historians. turkey accepts to have such a working group. if there was an illegal execution turkey must apologize as a heritage of ottomans.

what i dont understand is it normal to expell, if you dont kill.

and what is this 300/360.000 greece stuff? can you detail it?


Last time I heard about a kurdish political party it was banned for having connections to the PKK. Please tell me the name of this party so I can do some research on it.

"demokrat türkiye partisi" is closed. they have "barış ve demokrasi partisi" now.

And don't try to hide it, there is a kurdish population in turkey (should I call them "mountain turks", would that help you better?) of about 20-30%.

you are funny, nobody say them they are mountain turks, in contrast, we accept them as native settlers of anatolia. and nobody expell them. you dont even know their political party name, but still claim about their population with the help of google. again, they have a political party, and their vote is %4-5 (~4 million).

in my personel opinion, they should have their own country, although they never had it before in the history. (it will be under the control of US, just like Iraq under the control of England at the beginning of 20 th cent.)

Atanas only talks macedonian propaganda. Do some reasearch for yourself, if he was speaking the truth the EU in Brussels wouldn't tolerate it, and you would hear it on the news. Macedonians can go,say, learn, whatever they want. You choose to believe him its your fault.

kurdish people can not talk whatever they want. Remember that article I showed you where the little girl was arrested and jailed for speaking her mind? What about the armenian Journalist that was killed for mentioning what happened to the armenians. You talk only lies. Free speach in turkey is only acceptable if the government approves, this way Turkey is alot like North Korea and germany's 3rd reich.

1.5 million is the educated guess by historians. And yes historians agree a genocide happened, its politicians that don't, and I trust historians more. The only historians that say it didn't happend are turkish or funding their research by turkey. Its like the macedonians historians saying alexander wasn't greek when everyone else does. Do some reseach on the Greek genocide, 300,000-360,000 greeks died, along with other christian minorities. Turkey has alot of blood on its hands.

My last post was supposed to be my last untill I read yours and found many faults in your logic and understanding. My last comment to you is do some reseach before you believe the propaganda spewed out by turkey or skopia.

Have a good day barbarian, I'll be taking a trip with my girlfriend to the local museum and visiting a comedy club afterwards :smile:

Elias2
12-10-10, 14:41
And you can tell me again, that all that is ancient Greek lands ??? Greece has no minoroties, how can half the Salonica understands the language that I speak...

Last weeekend - a Salonikian sitting in Starbucks told me , SEDI (on Macedonian: SEAT)... od a chair ...

Greece has alot of minorities, I don't know where you heard otherwise.

barbarian
12-10-10, 15:58
ok, have a nice day




I'll be taking a trip with my girlfriend to the local museum and visiting a comedy club afterwards :smile:

and thanks for info.:smile:

atanas
13-10-10, 08:42
Greece has alot of minorities, I don't know where you heard otherwise.

Yes I know, Macedonians (non Greek speakers), Albanians, Vlachs, Turks (these are native minoroties) ... Armenians and Georgians as far as I 've seen.

chris eblana
17-10-10, 17:16
if you want to understand the problem, you need to understand the history of the region....ancient macedonians were a greek tribe...otherwise why on earth with the spread of the empire of alexander the great, we see the spread of HELLENISTIC art and culture in the period of humanity and not the macedonian, and GREEK language is spread all the way to india,and not the macedonian one..that is that...
now the modern macedonia has two ethnicities..the greek macedonians, and the slav macedonians....slav macedonians are of bulgarian mainly decent, that is why their language is bulgarian...they moved to the region in the byzantine years, 1000 years after the years of alexander the great so they have no claim over the heritage of ancient macedonia...with the liberation of macedonia from the turks,started a struggle to carve the macedonian region into the different nations that were being created in the region...bulgaria, greece albania..we had also the thessalonian jews that did not want the macedonian region to fall either to greece or bulgaria and wanted an independent region or state of macedonia because simply they controlled financially the region and it was in their ineterests....even today the jewish lobby in USA, still supports the creation of an independent macedonian state....
there is no one macedonian nation, nor language...what is called macedonian language is actually a bulgarian diallect...macedonia should be a region of europe not a country, just like other regions of europe that contain more than one ethnicities....greek macedonians existed in teh region since the ancient times and are being forced to forget their heritage,yet no one complains about them (i am one of them)...the modern macedonian region has more that one ethnicities living in it, the greek macedonian and the slavomacedonians....in fact people of fyrom are known in greece as that...slavomacedonians....so you see our problem IS NOT THE NAME, we could share the name, but not the history and the heritage...
but as fyrom believe that they are the true descendants of alexander and other nonsence like that,and they claim ,after the brainwashing and propaganda they endured under the Tito regime that had views on the northern greek region of macedonia, that greece actually occupies their land and there are minorities that are being supressed and other ridiculous claims, we can not accept FYROM as one of our allies, no matter how much some hard core europeans want them asap in EU and NATO...why should i compromise my heritage so for some to see all countries of europe in EU...??
as i said we could share the name, but not the heritage and history....if FYROM accepts this and stop making claims over greek territory and culture and heritage. i would be happy to accept a name like northern or new or vardar macedonia for them....otherwise i am sorry, let them stay where they are...!!

chris eblana
17-10-10, 17:19
Greece has alot of minorities, I don't know where you heard otherwise.


greece has the roma, the pomaks and turkish minorities that are recognised and they have a seat in the parliament...since when though, an immigrant is considered an ethnic minority?am i an native ethnic minority in ireland? we have many immigrants from bulgaria, albania,serbia, romania...so perhaps the person who spoke to you in slavic language, was actually a bulgarian??

chris eblana
17-10-10, 17:31
turkey occupies ILLEGALLY northern cyprus and they only reason the invaded the island is because of britain, and let su stupid turks and greeks fight over it....
when the brits gave cyprus their independence one of the rules was to accept british bases on the island (in fact cyprus is not just divided in two, rather in three parts until today,and britain, and EU country, has military bases in another EU country-ridiculous!!)..once the greek cypriots started wanting unification with greece, the agreement between the UK and cyprus would be annulled as cyprus being part of greece would not have to accept british bases...the brits are desperate to have bases in cyprus, as they are their eyes and ears in the middle east....the brits always practiced divide and rule policies wherever they went...india-pakistan with muslims and hindus, palestine and israel, and of course in cyprus with the greeks and turks....whenever there was a revolt in the turkish community they put greek cypriots to put it out by force, and vice versa..so they created hatred and divisions in the island to control both communities...so my turkish friend, open your eyes a little bit and smell the coffee...when the grek cypriots wanted unification with greece, the brits gave half of the island to you and allowed you to invade it, in order to keep their status quo on the island...and you are so silly to believe that you went there to protect the suppressed turkish minority....wake up will ya?

barbarian
17-10-10, 23:53
turkey occupies ILLEGALLY northern cyprus and they only reason the invaded the island is because of britain, and let su stupid turks and greeks fight over it....
when the brits gave cyprus their independence one of the rules was to accept british bases on the island (in fact cyprus is not just divided in two, rather in three parts until today,and britain, and EU country, has military bases in another EU country-ridiculous!!)..once the greek cypriots started wanting unification with greece, the agreement between the UK and cyprus would be annulled as cyprus being part of greece would not have to accept british bases...the brits are desperate to have bases in cyprus, as they are their eyes and ears in the middle east....the brits always practiced divide and rule policies wherever they went...india-pakistan with muslims and hindus, palestine and israel, and of course in cyprus with the greeks and turks....whenever there was a revolt in the turkish community they put greek cypriots to put it out by force, and vice versa..so they created hatred and divisions in the island to control both communities...so my turkish friend, open your eyes a little bit and smell the coffee...when the grek cypriots wanted unification with greece, the brits gave half of the island to you and allowed you to invade it, in order to keep their status quo on the island...and you are so silly to believe that you went there to protect the suppressed turkish minority....wake up will ya?
:useless: i am sure you can use better words

so do you mean greece was not silly to try to unify with cyprus by killing 2000 cyprus citizen? and, turkey should watch it not to help brit politics?

atanas
18-10-10, 09:55
hahah Ancient Macedonians have never been a Greek tribe.

If they were, there was no gonna be any Chaeroneia battle in 338 BC, do you understand. It was the greatest victory of Macedonians over the ancient Greeks - when the greek city-states turned dependent to the Macedonian kingdom.

Then - the ancient Macedonians according the "civilized" ancient greek society, were nothing else but Barbarians. Alexander 1st Philhellene was given that nickname - non Greek by origin, in order the get access to the Olympic games.

Check the states of you great spokesman, Demostenes of Athens. Ancient Macedonians, neither Macedonia - have never been Greek until 1980.

chris eblana
18-10-10, 10:41
hahah Ancient Macedonians have never been a Greek tribe.

If they were, there was no gonna be any Chaeroneia battle in 338 BC, do you understand. It was the greatest victory of Macedonians over the ancient Greeks - when the greek city-states turned dependent to the Macedonian kingdom.

Then - the ancient Macedonians according the "civilized" ancient greek society, were nothing else but Barbarians. Alexander 1st Philhellene was given that nickname - non Greek by origin, in order the get access to the Olympic games.

Check the states of you great spokesman, Demostenes of Athens. Ancient Macedonians, neither Macedonia - have never been Greek until 1980.


NONSENCE..!!! and you know it..!! you are entering the sphere of ancient greek politics, where when someone called another nation either greek or non greek a barbarian, it was the biggest insult you could give them...and ancient greek tribes were always fighting each other....what that does mean...?? half of greece was fighting the other half all the time...alliances kept changing...read some history man..!! and why ancient macedonians were taking part in the olympic games of the time,and as we know ONLY greeks were allowed to take part in them...??alexander took part in the olympics....since you are a "macedonian", please visit Pella, Aeges, Philippoi, and Vergina ancient cities of the macedonians that their ruins still stand,and have a look around.....if you see anything else than greek culture and architecture, then i will give you this argument...go to teh museum of Thessalonica...see the finds in there...open your eyes man...you are brainwashed by the times of Tito..!!

but PLEASE do answer my question...why did macedonians spread GREEK language culture and art all the way to india, and not "macedonian" and why we call this period of history HELLENISTIC, and not macedonian...?? and why your alphabet is cyrilic that was invented by two thessalonican brothers more than 1000 years after Alexander, and why you speak a slavic language, and as we know slavs came down to the region of northern macedonia 1000 years after alexander....?? please answer those questions in your head and then you will see the light of truth..!! my brainwashed friend

chris eblana
18-10-10, 10:49
:useless: i am sure you can use better words

so do you mean greece was not silly to try to unify with cyprus by killing 2000 cyprus citizen? and, turkey should watch it not to help brit politics?


when did greece killed 2000 cypriots...??are you mad...??cyprus was independent...!! greek cypriots did want unification with greece...there were always clashes between the two communities, the turkish and the greek and yes in some of them people did die FROM BOTH SIDES....cypriot greeks killed turkish cypriots AND turkish cypriots killed greek cypriots....it was a war, that as i said started from the brits....your government used that lie to excuse and explain the atrocities that they commited in cyprus to your nation, just like america is brainwashing it's citizens to excuse the mess they are creating in iraq and afghanistan....you invaded cyprus and you occupy it ILLEGALLY, that is why no one has recognised northern cyprus.....you commited attrocities against the armenians, that even americans have accepted, only YOU still deny it...wake up...!!

barbarian
18-10-10, 11:01
when did greece killed 2000 cypriots...??are you mad...??cyprus was independent...!! greek cypriots did want unification with greece...there were always clashes between the two communities, the turkish and the greek and yes in some of them people did die FROM BOTH SIDES....cypriot greeks killed turkish cypriots AND turkish cypriots killed greek cypriots....it was a war, that as i said started from the brits....your government used that lie to excuse and explain the atrocities that they commited in cyprus to your nation, just like america is brainwashing it's citizens to excuse the mess they are creating in iraq and afghanistan....you invaded cyprus and you occupy it ILLEGALLY, that is why no one has recognised northern cyprus.....you commited attrocities against the armenians, that even americans have accepted, only YOU still deny it...wake up...!!

i appreciate your effots to wake me up wise man. and i accept that brits, uS etc. plays game with countries like GR and TR. but, from what you wrote you must, at least, accept the stupidity of the cyrus/greece side since they began to force the whole island to unify with greece with the help of guns.

see: post no :39

"About cyprus, in july 1974 some greek soldiers charged in cyprus and cyprus soldiers made a putsch (?) with help of greek junta against makarios (in that period cyprus was one country). And these putschist killed around 2000 cyprus citizens (turks and roman). Their aim was to join greece as cyprus (see Makarios, who is not Turkish, speech at UN Security counsel at 19 july 1974). In that period turkey, Greece and England was the guarantor of the treaty of Cyprus. And turkey invaded 1/3 of Cyprus where the population was mostly Turkish.

In 2008, Turkish side of Cyprus accepted the Annan plan which would make the Cyprus again 1 country. But roman side didn’t accept it."

chris eblana
18-10-10, 11:07
i appreciate your effots to wake me up wise man. and i accept that brits, uS etc. plays game with countries like GR and TR. but, from what you wrote you must, at least, accept the stupidity of the cyrus/greece side since they began to force the whole island to unify with greece with the help of guns.

see: post no :39

"About cyprus, in july 1974 some greek soldiers charged in cyprus and cyprus soldiers made a putsch (?) with help of greek junta against makarios (in that period cyprus was one country). And these putschist killed around 2000 cyprus citizens (turks and roman). Their aim was to join greece as cyprus (see Makarios, who is not Turkish, speech at UN Security counsel at 19 july 1974). In that period turkey, Greece and England was the guarantor of the treaty of Cyprus. And turkey invaded 1/3 of Cyprus where the population was mostly Turkish.

In 2008, Turkish side of Cyprus accepted the Annan plan which would make the Cyprus again 1 country. But roman side didn’t accept it."


greek soldiers never put a foot in cyprus in 1974...we were stopped before we even leave the agean sea....otherwise we would have had a war between turkey and greece on the island of cyprus, if greek soldiers were allowed to go to cyprus to fight...what are you talking about...?? more propaganda of the turkish side...?? and if we ever killed greek cypriots do you think that we would have good relations with them....?? from where did you get that source...? from wikipedia...?? honestly..!!!

and the greek cypriots DID WELL to reject the Anan plan at the time, since it gave more rights to the turks, even those who colonised the island after the illegal invasion and took illegally land and property of the greek cypriots...

barbarian
18-10-10, 14:34
greek soldiers never put a foot in cyprus in 1974...we were stopped before we even leave the agean sea....otherwise we would have had a war between turkey and greece on the island of cyprus, if greek soldiers were allowed to go to cyprus to fight...what are you talking about...?? more propaganda of the turkish side...?? and if we ever killed greek cypriots do you think that we would have good relations with them....?? from where did you get that source...? from wikipedia...?? honestly..!!!

and the greek cypriots DID WELL to reject the Anan plan at the time, since it gave more rights to the turks, even those who colonised the island after the illegal invasion and took illegally land and property of the greek cypriots...
greece military junta supported the putschist in cyprus by using their soldiers in the island. you can find it in the speech of makarious. those were killed in that period was from both of turkish and cyprus side. they killed also roman cypriots because they were against this putsch.

edit: get bored of this subject. this is my last reply. you look smart person to me and i am sure you (greeks) are also right in some perspectives. but i hope you will find respectful words next time when we have an argue.

Elias2
18-10-10, 15:16
hahah Ancient Macedonians have never been a Greek tribe.

If they were, there was no gonna be any Chaeroneia battle in 338 BC, do you understand. It was the greatest victory of Macedonians over the ancient Greeks - when the greek city-states turned dependent to the Macedonian kingdom.

Then - the ancient Macedonians according the "civilized" ancient greek society, were nothing else but Barbarians. Alexander 1st Philhellene was given that nickname - non Greek by origin, in order the get access to the Olympic games.

Check the states of you great spokesman, Demostenes of Athens. Ancient Macedonians, neither Macedonia - have never been Greek until 1980.

Your government is trying to take the political differences between the city states at the time in ancient greece and use it as evidence that macedonians were different, when in facts they were all greeks.

Chaeronia is one example of greek states fighting each other, the Peloponnesian War is another. Barbarian was a phrase greeks called each other to insult them, as well as the more practical definition.

You choose to read the propaganda spread by skopje and believe it, if that makes you happy in the bubble of the world you live in go ahead and believe it, but do not come here and spread your lies.

chris eblana
18-10-10, 16:25
greece military junta supported the putschist in cyprus by using their soldiers in the island. you can find it in the speech of makarious. those were killed in that period was from both of turkish and cyprus side. they killed also roman cypriots because they were against this putsch.

edit: get bored of this subject. this is my last reply. you look smart person to me and i am sure you (greeks) are also right in some perspectives. but i hope you will find respectful words next time when we have an argue.


makarios wanted the unification of cyprus with greece..that is no lie..and he cooperated with the junta to make this happen...many greek cypriots wanted the unification..some still are...we are you see one nation....it was not by force as you said, rather the wish of many greek cypriots, and above them all makarios'..but the big powers had other opinions,so they worked on that...britain and turkey did not want the unification for obvious reasons..so that intensified the struggle from the greek side...the hostilities between the two communities did not happen because of any greek presence in the island, rather because of british policies...they incited the hatred that already existed...so both communities committed crimes against each other...
i did not use any disrespectful words against you or your nation..rather your quotes...and yes both sides have some right or wrong perspectives, but the bottom line is, turkey must withdraw it military presence in the island and stop the occupation..even if you are right and we are wrong, unification will never happen if turkey still occupies militarily the island....let the greek and turkish cypriots find the solution between them...amen

atanas
19-10-10, 08:56
wasn't this a discussion about Macedonian-Greek relations ?

chris eblana
20-10-10, 00:36
wasn't this a discussion about Macedonian-Greek relations ?

yes but since you rest your case we thought to change the topic to something more substantial...

FYROM-Greek relations should be good...we have a lot to achieve if we all united in the Balkans.....My dream is that...But i am not willing to compromise my heritage for my dream....in the worse case scenario, since we have many other "holes" in EU (switzerland, norway) let us have one more and be done with it...

LeBrok
20-10-10, 07:20
Chris, there is not much from ancient Greek heritage left anyway. Don't try to hold on to it in sort of nationalistic way, just to see how different you are from Macedonians or Turks. Today's Greeks, would have hell of a hard time to communicate with ancient Greeks. The language has changed so much. Today's Greeks have different religion than ones from 2000 years ago. The architecture is different, the customs are different, the enemies are different, the way of life is different, even people look somewhat different. You even live now in different place.
From my experience everybody's history point of view is skewed. Everybody's history is taught from nationalistic, heritage pride point of view. I'm pretty sure the truth is somewhere in the middle of all arguments.
Besides, history and the wars where cruel and everybody will have some vengeance to satisfy. I think, we should forgive, even forget what was in the past, and start fresh. I'm not sure what else we could do to live together in peace?

atanas
20-10-10, 09:57
since We use accronyms like FYROM I think would be better using FOPOG instead of Greece. Greece is a ancient term which refferes to several cities-states, which existed more than 2000 years ago.

*FOPOG - Former Ottoman Province Of Greece.

atanas
20-10-10, 09:58
In accordance with LeBrok - yes, ancient Greekism is gone today, you and the rest of the modern Greek, do not have much in common.... with the ancient Greeks.

Modern Greeks are of subsaharian origin, don't you know this, according to IGENEA ?

Cambrius (The Red)
20-10-10, 13:37
Chris, there is not much from ancient Greek heritage left anyway. Don't try to hold on to it in sort of nationalistic way, just to see how different you are from Macedonians or Turks. Today's Greeks, would have hell of a hard time to communicate with ancient Greeks. The language has changed so much. Today's Greeks have different religion than ones from 2000 years ago. The architecture is different, the customs are different, the enemies are different, the way of life is different, even people look somewhat different. You even live now in different place.
From my experience everybody's history point of view is skewed. Everybody's history is taught from nationalistic, heritage pride point of view. I'm pretty sure the truth is somewhere in the middle of all arguments.
Besides, history and the wars where cruel and everybody will have some vengeance to satisfy. I think, we should forgive, even forget what was in the past, and start fresh. I'm not sure what else we could do to live together in peace?

For once, I agree with something you have written. :cool-v:

Cambrius (The Red)
20-10-10, 18:24
In accordance with LeBrok - yes, ancient Greekism is gone today, you and the rest of the modern Greek, do not have much in common.... with the ancient Greeks.

Modern Greeks are of subsaharian origin, don't you know this, according to IGENEA ?

I think you may be indirectly referring to two particular studies that were found to be methodologically flawed, in serious ways. The results produced by such have never been peer duplicated and were debunked numerous times.

Modern Greek genetics are primarily Near Eastern / Eastern Mediterranean with some Slavic and Germanic influences.

Elias2
20-10-10, 20:18
Chris, there is not much from ancient Greek heritage left anyway. Don't try to hold on to it in sort of nationalistic way, just to see how different you are from Macedonians or Turks. Today's Greeks, would have hell of a hard time to communicate with ancient Greeks. The language has changed so much. Today's Greeks have different religion than ones from 2000 years ago. The architecture is different, the customs are different, the enemies are different, the way of life is different, even people look somewhat different. You even live now in different place.
From my experience everybody's history point of view is skewed. Everybody's history is taught from nationalistic, heritage pride point of view. I'm pretty sure the truth is somewhere in the middle of all arguments.
Besides, history and the wars where cruel and everybody will have some vengeance to satisfy. I think, we should forgive, even forget what was in the past, and start fresh. I'm not sure what else we could do to live together in peace?

Of course modern greeks and ancient greeks live different lifestyles, there is a 2000 year gap, but to say we have nothing in common is false. To say the roman era and ottoman era didn't leave its mark would be wronge, but to say we don't decend in one way or another from them is false. I don't understand what you want from greeks, to live in stone houses and wear togas all day long? no, it is the year 2010, we won't do that. You want greeks to worhship the ancient gods? The christian roman era changed that for good. The greek language has changed, but to put in it perspective, the english language has changed more from the time of shakespear than the greek language from the time of homer. The language might have adopted outside words along the way but it has not changed, if you look at it from a 2000 year perspective, very drastically like say latin has in relation to modern latin languages.

What I love the most is when I debate a FYROM person about how they are not macedonian is that they attack me about my origins. In essence they cannot refute my statements so they begin attacking me. They spew out propaganda invented by skopje about us greeks being africa, asian, alien, whatever. Our "macedonian" friend here did no different. You cannot be slavic and be decended from ancient macedonians, its impossible. And frankly, to base a country on one greek tibe that existed 2000 years ago is ludacris. Greeks don't claim to be from one specific city state or another, its impossible to trace your origins that precise, but we are the almagamation of the greeks living on the penisula over the years. There has always been greek speaking people in greece.

You critisize that history is taught to much from a nationalistic standpoint, you should read the macedonian history books, pure and utter propaganda. It is FYROM with their invented nationality that claims greek macedonia based on their fantasies, Greece has always said it would meet half way with FYROM about the name issue, but they stubbornly refuse. Nothern Macedonia, Vardar Macedonia, New Macedonia, what is wrong with these names? To call yourself just Macedonia is to deny Greek Macedonia their Identity and to steal their history, so who is it here that is wrong? The Lier and desiver or the rational man?

Elias2
20-10-10, 20:32
I think you may be indirectly referring to two particular studies that were found to be methodologically flawed, in serious ways. The results produced by such have never been peer duplicated and were debunked numerous times.

Modern Greek genetics are primarily Near Eastern / Eastern Mediterranean with some Slavic and Germanic influences.

Greeks have always been a near eastern/eastern mediterranean people. Check out what maciamo has made on this website about the genetic makeup of europe:


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25106&highlight=greek

I don't think the genetic makeup of greeks, though it has changed over the years, changed as drastically as many may think. Then we have "research" projects funding by skopje that lie to prove greeks are not decended from ancient greeks. Did you know there is a law in FYROM that forbids any scientific study about the origins of their people? I wonder why...

chris eblana
23-10-10, 15:41
In accordance with LeBrok - yes, ancient Greekism is gone today, you and the rest of the modern Greek, do not have much in common.... with the ancient Greeks.

Modern Greeks are of subsaharian origin, don't you know this, according to IGENEA ?


whatever rocks your world....where do you get all those "facts"...?? do you know how you sound like when you referring to "purity of a race"...?? yes that is right... a nazi...that is what you are in Fyrom..

.we never said that we are 100% pure descendants of the ancient greeks, but who in europe can claim that is coming 100% pure from an ancient tribe...?? we are talking about CULTURAL heritage...not RACIAL....to me anyone with greek language, heritage and culture, either he is white or black, muslim or christian, can claim the heritage and ancestry of ancient greeks and that INCLUDES that of macedonia, as ancient macedonia was a greek tribe...now go and sob....stupidity annoys me you know...better chose your next comment more carefully and stop making a fool of yourself...

chris eblana
23-10-10, 15:54
Chris, there is not much from ancient Greek heritage left anyway. Don't try to hold on to it in sort of nationalistic way, just to see how different you are from Macedonians or Turks. Today's Greeks, would have hell of a hard time to communicate with ancient Greeks. The language has changed so much. Today's Greeks have different religion than ones from 2000 years ago. The architecture is different, the customs are different, the enemies are different, the way of life is different, even people look somewhat different. You even live now in different place.
From my experience everybody's history point of view is skewed. Everybody's history is taught from nationalistic, heritage pride point of view. I'm pretty sure the truth is somewhere in the middle of all arguments.
Besides, history and the wars where cruel and everybody will have some vengeance to satisfy. I think, we should forgive, even forget what was in the past, and start fresh. I'm not sure what else we could do to live together in peace?


my dear lebrok, did you really think that modern greeks would not evolve after thousands of years or history..?? honestly, what crossed your mind to be thinking that modern greeks and the ancient would be exactly the same and speak the same language..!! after all the thousands of years past, the conquerors and the other nations that we came in contact with, the forced christendom that came upon us, as well upon the rest of europe, did you think that we would still believe in the 12 gods of olympus..?? honestly..!!
travel to greece and see for yourself...not just the greek touristic islands, but the mainland and come in contact with the local customs....do not go there just for the sun and the beaches and you will see that we do have some elements surviving in our culture....hospitality is one...many customs come from our pagan ancestors dressed in a christian veil.....each february there are customs all over greece that echo ancient pagan rituals...

in the northern greek region of macedonia, we have some customs that date back in the dionysian days...men dressed up as goats, holding fallic symbols, run through the streets of towns and tease women but also men with them...have you never heard of that before..?? i guess not..because when you europeans come to greece, you only are interested in our sun beaches and drinks, and you are totally indifferent in anything else...

i agree with all the rest that you say, that we do need to see forward, forgive and forget, but that should not mean that i have to forget my heritage....why should i do that anyway...?? i am a man who looks at the past and is inspired by it, but also that looks in the future and has a vision for it...and i will also agree with you that the truth always lies somewhere in the middle, but in this case, greece has more of a point.....as i said..we could share the name, but deffinatelly NOT our heritage...end of...

chris eblana
23-10-10, 15:59
since We use accronyms like FYROM I think would be better using FOPOG instead of Greece. Greece is a ancient term which refferes to several cities-states, which existed more than 2000 years ago.

*FOPOG - Former Ottoman Province Of Greece.


don't blame us for this silly name, but yourselves and the UN....you should be renamed to what your name was before WW2....Vardarska...FYROM is a silly name that came upon you from your stupidity and insistence to be called something you are not...it is temporary and hopefully it won't last long...
i do want to see you in EU one day...but as long as you do not try to throw mud against my country, and try to steal my heritage...i can not be allies with such a nation, and why should i...

Elias2
24-10-10, 21:25
Looks Like the name issue will be resolved soon now there is pressure from USA and the EU on FYROM;

"The Obama administration in Washington D.C. is pushing the Skopian Republic to accept the predominant name for the country which is “Vardaska Makedonija”. However the United Nations official proposal of “Northern Makedonia” remains on the table. Secretary of Foreign Affairs Hilary Clinton was very clear about the intentions of the Obama government at a recent U.S. – E.E. meeting . During the speech from the representative of Slovenia, she intervened and strongly stated that Greece should cease negotiations with the E.U. about FYROM, and the country’s accession into NATO. Her opinion on the matter was that Prime Minister George Papandreou had stated his position, therefore it was now FYROM’s turn to respond. She indirectly sent another message to the Skopian Republic with the option of using the term “Makedonia”, referring to the northern neighborhood. Clinton has strongly supported the Greek “2014 Agenda” for the accession of the whole Balkan network of Serbia, Bosnia, and Kosovo into the E.E."

source:
http://usa.greekreporter.com/2010/10/15/hilary-clinton-defends-greece-on-the-fyrom-name-issue/


Words from herman van rompfree (sp)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zibxBoziGgA

chris eblana
27-10-10, 22:07
Looks Like the name issue will be resolved soon now there is pressure from USA and the EU on FYROM;

"The Obama administration in Washington D.C. is pushing the Skopian Republic to accept the predominant name for the country which is “Vardaska Makedonija”. However the United Nations official proposal of “Northern Makedonia” remains on the table. Secretary of Foreign Affairs Hilary Clinton was very clear about the intentions of the Obama government at a recent U.S. – E.E. meeting . During the speech from the representative of Slovenia, she intervened and strongly stated that Greece should cease negotiations with the E.U. about FYROM, and the country’s accession into NATO. Her opinion on the matter was that Prime Minister George Papandreou had stated his position, therefore it was now FYROM’s turn to respond. She indirectly sent another message to the Skopian Republic with the option of using the term “Makedonia”, referring to the northern neighborhood. Clinton has strongly supported the Greek “2014 Agenda” for the accession of the whole Balkan network of Serbia, Bosnia, and Kosovo into the E.E."

source:
http://usa.greekreporter.com/2010/10/15/hilary-clinton-defends-greece-on-the-fyrom-name-issue/


Words from herman van rompfree (sp)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zibxBoziGgA


vardarska makedonija is perfect for me...vardarska was the real name of the region before Tito....and that what they should technically be called...the makedonija bit could still sound sour to most of my country mates, but i accept it if only they drop the propaganda about the greekness of ancient macedonia and the "occupation" of their lands by greece and bulgaria...the makedonija bit should be just to define the region, not the ethnicity....then peace will come in the balkans at last...!! amen!

Marianne
10-11-10, 17:05
In accordance with LeBrok - yes, ancient Greekism is gone today, you and the rest of the modern Greek, do not have much in common.... with the ancient Greeks.

Modern Greeks are of subsaharian origin, don't you know this, according to IGENEA ?

You are just repeating your country's propaganda.

Ancient Greeks' and Modern Greeks' DNA is surprisingly similar. Modern Greeks have evolved since ancient times like every population does, but their DNA has remained practically the same. In fact Modern and Ancient Greeks, have almost the same % of y-dna haplogroups and Modern Greeks have one of the lowest sub-Saharan admixtures in Europe


The haplotypes have been detected in Portugal (3%), Spain (0.42%), Germany (2%), Austria (0.78%), France (2.5% in a very small sample), Italy (0.45%), Sardinia (1.6%) and Greece (0.27%).

iapetoc
13-04-11, 07:07
:useless: your own words answers yourself.

you cannot be the sons of socrates.

:laughing::laughing:

someone that doesn't know Greeks,

Remember that Greeks are also the sons of Alexander, and Pausanias,
so maybe Alexander sons are on the loose,

on the other hand I don't allow a man from a Nazi country, that occupy nations to speak,
1n 1900 Turkey genocide Armenians, Pontic Greeks, and Con/polis minority in 1953,
today Turkey occupies from Land of Cyprus,and Bulgaria,
And the Lands of Kurdistan, South ARmenia (Kars), Laz, Syria, republic of Pont,
so when you set free those nations and people then speak

:useless: :useless: :useless:

iapetoc
13-04-11, 07:21
In accordance with LeBrok - yes, ancient Greekism is gone today, you and the rest of the modern Greek, do not have much in common.... with the ancient Greeks.

Modern Greeks are of subsaharian origin, don't you know this, according to IGENEA ?


:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

maybe Ancient Greeks had also sub-saharan MtDNA, who knows?

lets see Danaus Δαναος Bother of Egypt, wow
so Ancient Greeks could be sub-saharans,
but what are you?
Are you a slavic? a steppe one? a modern intruder?
or a Cuman?
what is your MtDna? siberian? Moggolean?

so since Greeks admit that have 1 of 3 Patriarchs from Africa,
what is your problem?
Maybe Alexander had sub-saharan Dna

:cool-v:

DejaVu
13-04-11, 20:05
There is no discussion about any other countries names or nationality, if so its unvalid because countries name is not negotiable and thats a fact who cant be broken. If its going to be democratic lets start again same rules for all countries if not then no discussion or negotiation.
Greeks (modern adopted and given identity name by Western Europeans like Great Britain) are spreading wrong information to other people and countries so they get confused that they are what they are and others not, but its over and the time is not on your side even if you try with lies and fake propaganda. Greece the biggest criminal in Europe regarding Minority human rights and cheated with the currency to get Euro and now in big crises with the economy and that will bring unstability in the country. Your days is counted and there is no way out. Your offensive fake propaganda and the sell out of your soul to the Devil will get you where you belong. (Hell-as)

DejaVu
13-04-11, 20:21
REPOST: Greeks are Sub-Saharans. FACT!


The Greek Europeans?

Ann Hum Biol. (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:AL_get(this,%20'jour',%20'Ann%20Hum%20Biol.') ;) 2010 Jul 29.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20666704 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20666704)

Abstract
Background: The HLA polymorphism is a powerful genetic tool to study population origins. By analysing allele frequencies and haplotypes in different populations, it is possible to identify ethnic groups and establish the genetic relationships among them. Aim: The Berber (endogenous Tunisians) HLA class I and class II genotypes were analysed and compared with those of Mediterranean and Sub-Saharan African communities using genetic distances, Neighbour-Joining dendrograms, correspondence and haplotype analysis. Subjects and methods: One hundred and five unrelated Berbers were typed for HLA class I (A, B) and class II (DRB1, DQB1) gene alleles using reverse dot-blot hybridization. Results: High frequencies of A*0201 (24.76%), A*3402 (22.38%) and B*44 (32.85%) alleles were recorded for Berbers, the highest recorded for Mediterranean and North African populations. This study shows a close relatedness of Tunisian Berbers to other Tunisians, North Africans and Iberians. Conclusion: The apparent relatedness of Tunisian Berbers to present-day (North African) Tunisians, Algerians and Moroccans suggests that the Arab invasion of North Africa (7(th)-11(th) centuries AD) did not significantly impact the genetic makeup of North Africans. Furthermore, Tunisian Berbers appear to be closely related to Iberians (Spaniards and Basques), indicating that the 7(th) century AD gene flow of invaders was low in Iberians and that the main part of their genetic pool came after the Northward Saharan migration, when hyper-arid conditions were established in Sahara (before 6000 BC). Other studied populations belong to the old Mediterranean substratum, which has been present in the area since pre-Neolithic times. This study indicates a higher proportion of Iberian than Arab ancestry in Tunisian Berbers, which is of value in evaluating the evolutionary history of present-day Tunisians. Greeks seem to share genetic HLA features (Chr 6) with Sub-Saharans. The relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharans has been confirmed by other studies based on chromosome 7 genetic markers.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506?dopt=Abstract (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506?dopt=Abstract).
Villena 2001 claims that Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the "Mycaenian Greeks",Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans... Hajjeja 2005 also claims that "Our study shows that the Greeks are separate from other Mediterranean populations and tend to cluster with Sub-Saharans (Figs. 2 and 3). This result confirms the Sub-Saharan origin of Greeks". Di Giacomo 2003 reported for Y Hg A found in Mitilini-Greece. Al-Zahery 2003 also separates the Macedonians/Europeans from the Greeks.....or vice versa.
http://files.myopera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/HLA%20genes%20in%20Southern%20Tunisians%204a.jpg

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16473309 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16473309)
HLA genes in Southern Tunisians (Ghannouch area) and their Relationship with other Mediterraneans.
A. Hajjej a, S. Hmida a,*, H. Kaabi a,A. Dridi a,A. Jridi a, A. El Gaa1ed b, K. Boukef a
a National Blood Transfusion Centre, Tunis, Tunisia
b Laboratory of Immunogenetics, Department of Biology, University of Tunis, El Manar

Y-Chromosome Haplotypes in the Greek–Turkish Area
http://www.springerlink.com/content/h347402u768310m3/ (http://www.springerlink.com/content/h347402u768310m3/)

Measuring European Population Stratification with Microarray Genotype Data
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852743/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852743/)

sparkey
13-04-11, 20:41
Greeks aren't that close to Sub-Saharan Africans on most markers. This page (http://dienekes.awardspace.com/articles/greekadna/) has a good summary that shows that Greeks tend to cluster more readily with their neighbors. Probably, similarities that they share with certain Sub-Saharans result from common descent from the Neolithic Expansion, which would be Middle Eastern origin, at least at the time of outset. It could have been displaced where it originated, in that case. Either way, the cited studies are flawed.

I'm not really sure what you're suggesting anyway. That modern Greeks came directly from Sub-Saharan Africa when...?

sparkey
13-04-11, 20:59
For what it's worth, I think that the Republic of Macedonia should be called the "Republic of Macedonia." Macedonia is just a region, and although the supposed extent of its borders and the culture contained within its borders have fluctuated over time, that's something to note in textbooks, not to make an international issue about.

Elias2
13-04-11, 21:23
@Sparkey,

I agree with you on your cultural point. Greeks call people from FYROM slavs for obvious reasons, and they resent that because it contradicts their claims to be macedonians, so in turn they say greeks are sub saharan using studies that were flawed on purpose to try to use a point saying greeks arn't european or whatever. Dejuva know everything he posts is fake but he will do it anyways, it's the nationalism talking.

My opinion is that the country should be called northern, new, vardar, or upper macedonia.

@ Dejavu

Bulgaria lost the second balkan war get over it.

Wilhelm
13-04-11, 21:53
Im in the side of greeks here. The ancient region of Macedonia was only like 5% of today's FYROM, plus they were ethnic greeks not slavs like modern "macedonians" are. It's the manipulation of the communists.

Elias2
13-04-11, 21:59
A small history lesson!

Argead house:


`The Argead dynasty (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Ἀργεάδαι) was an ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks) royal house. They were the ruling dynasty of Macedon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedon) from about 700 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/700_BC) to 310 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/310_BC). Their tradition, as described in ancient Greek historiography, traced their origins to Argos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argos), in southern Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) (hence the name Argeads).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argead_dynasty#cite_note-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argead_dynasty#cite_note-1) Initially, the rulers of the homonymous tribe,[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argead_dynasty#cite_note-2) by the time of Philip II they had expanded their reign further, to include under the rule of Macedon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedon) all Upper Macedonian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Macedonia) states. The family's most celebrated members were Philip II of Macedon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_II_of_Macedon) and Alexander the Great (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great), under whose leadership, the kingdom of Macedon gradually gained predominance throughout Greece, defeated the Achaemenid Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_Empire) and expanded as far as Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt) and India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argead_dynasty

4747

sparkey
13-04-11, 22:15
Im in the side of greeks here. The ancient region of Macedonia was only like 5% of today's FYROM, plus they were ethnic greeks not slavs like modern "macedonians" are. It's the manipulation of the communists.

You're right about borders and culture, the culture has clearly changed, and the modern region of "Macedonia" is larger than the ancient region of "Macedonia." And not much of the Republic is contained within the ancient borders. But I still don't see why we need to use terms like "FYROM" or change the name to "Upper Macedonia." Is it implicit in the current name that they are the only or true modern Macedonians? Because the name "United States of America" does not imply that those living in the States are the only or true Americans. Isn't that a reasonable analogy?

I'd like to see the Macedonians from the Republic accept the history of the region and the Greeks accept the name of the country. Then maybe we could all get along.
:beer1:

DejaVu
13-04-11, 22:45
Wilhelm:
You dont know anything about the history on Balkans does not matter what side you are on.
Read the Macedonians thread if you are neutral but you are not thats why it does not matter what you think.

Elias2
13-04-11, 22:51
You're right about borders and culture, the culture has clearly changed, and the modern region of "Macedonia" is larger than the ancient region of "Macedonia." And not much of the Republic is contained within the ancient borders. But I still don't see why we need to use terms like "FYROM" or change the name to "Upper Macedonia." Is it implicit in the current name that they are the only or true modern Macedonians? Because the name "United States of America" does not imply that those living in the States are the only or true Americans. Isn't that a reasonable analogy?

I'd like to see the Macedonians from the Republic accept the history of the region and the Greeks accept the name of the country. Then maybe we could all get along.
:beer1:


If you ask them they are the only true macedonians and therefore Greece and Bulgaria occupy their land
4748;

That is what they teach young slavo-macedonians happened to their country after the balkan war. There were no macedonians then, it is an invented nationality after WW2 in order to claim greek macedonia. In my opinion Greece has every right to be involved in the affairs in another country who has expansionist goals into yours. I would like aswell to see slavo-macedonians accept their history.

Elias2
13-04-11, 22:54
Wilhelm:
You dont know anything about the history on Balkans does not matter what side you are on.
Read the Macedonians thread if you are neutral but you are not thats why it does not matter what you think.

No he was spot on, "Macedonian" is an invented nationality by the communists.

"When Yugoslavia actually claimed Greek Macedonia at the Paris Peace Conference of 1947, the Greek plenipotentiary reminded the Yugoslavian delegation that in 1916 his father had been the Prefect of Corfu, and had been responsible for saving approximately 133,000 Serb soldiers from drowning or captivity. The traditional Serbian song from WWI, "Tamo Daleko," was still fresh in their minds. The Yugoslavian delegation backed off. Macedonia remained Greek."

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/225852

julia90
14-04-11, 00:06
here's a tourism promotion video for Macedonia (Fyrom).. i associate many of the scene's with greeks (the scene of the tryclinium!!!!:shocked:) as well as the music (sound greekish..)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWGJuANELm8

i think that if people from fyrom feel greeks than they should annect themselves to greece, and not saying bullshits about alexander the great saying he wasn't greek. everybody who studied know well that part of history, he spoke an hellene language not a slavic one.
So are you slavs or greeks?, first option slav: you aren't macedonian; second option greek: you are macedonian and you should annect yourself to greece.

DejaVu
14-04-11, 00:20
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Greater_Macedonia.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(region)
Modern Macedonia is divided (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(terminology)#Subregions) by the national boundaries of Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) (Greek Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece))), the Republic of Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia), Bulgaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria) (Blagoevgrad Province (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blagoevgrad_Province)), Albania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania) (Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mala_Prespa_and_Golo_Brdo)), Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia) (Prohor Pčinjski (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohor_P%C4%8Dinjski) and Gora (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gora_(region))).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_(ethnic_group)
Macedonia Region before 1913 was inhabited by ethnic Macedonians 80-90%. Called themselfs Macedonians and nothing more. Ethnic Macedonians was expelled from their country and resettled by christian Turks, majority today in the Greek Region of Macedonia who are calling themselfs Macedonians (Fake Macedonians) today when Greece took over the occupied Macedonia in 1913.
End of Story.

julia90
14-04-11, 00:32
From the middle of the 4th century BC, the Kingdom of Macedon became the dominant power in Greece and the neighbouring regions; since then Macedonia has had a diverse history.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/ExpansionOfMacedon.jpg
macedonia was in its origin part of hellas, thus people there spoke a langauage akin to ancient greek

macedonia and greece are two unseparable thing.

therefore you are a Greek in denial, people from fyrom are greek then.

julia90
14-04-11, 00:43
In classical times, the region of Macedonia comprised parts of what at the time was known as Macedonia, Illyria and Thrace. Among others, in its lands were located the kingdoms of Paeonia, Dardania, Macedonia and Pelagonia, historical tribes like the Agrianes, and colonies of southern Greek city states. Prior to the Macedonian ascendancy, parts of southern Macedonia were populated by the Bryges,[14] a Thracian people, while western, (i.e., Upper) Macedonia, was inhabited by Macedonian and Illyrian tribes. Whilst numerous wars are later recorded between the Illyrian and Macedonian Kingdoms, the Bryges might have co-existed peacefully with the Macedonians.[15] In the time of Classical Greece, Paionia, whose exact boundaries are obscure, originally included the whole Axius River valley and the surrounding areas, in what is now the northern part of the Greek region of Macedonia, most of the Republic of Macedonia, and a small part of western Bulgaria.[16] By 500 BC, the ancient kingdom of Macedon was centered somewhere between the southern slopes of Lower Olympus and the lowest reach of the Haliakmon River.[17] During the Persian Wars, the kingdom of Macedonia was subject to the Persians but after the battle of Plataia regained its freedom. Under Philip II and Alexander the Great, the kingdom of Macedonia forcefully expanded, placing the whole of the region of Macedonia under their rule.
Alexander's conquests produced a lasting extension of Hellenistic culture and thought across the ancient Near East, but his empire broke up on his death. His generals divided the empire between them, founding their own states and dynasties. The kingdom of Macedon was taken by Cassander, who ruled it until his death in 297 BC. At the time, Macedonian control over the Thracoillyrian states of the region slowly waned, although the kingdom of Macedonia remained the most potent regional power. This period also saw several Celtic invasions into Macedonia. However, the Celts were each time successfully repelled by Cassander, and later Antigonus, leaving little overall influence on the region.

julia90
14-04-11, 00:45
if you warship alexander the great ---->then you warship an hellenistic culture---->then you feel hellene---->you feel akin to greeks.

just admit it, also southern italy has greek ancestry and culture, they feel italian but they don't bash greeks from greece either, and they don't get in argument claiming that pitagora was italic, they claim he was greek, and let them recognise him as one of their culture but as well of the culture of magna grecia in italy.

Elias2
14-04-11, 00:53
Macedonia Region before 1913 was inhabited by ethnic Macedonians 80-90%. Called themselfs Macedonians and nothing more. Ethnic Macedonians was expelled from their country and resettled by christian Turks, majority today in the Greek Region of Macedonia who are calling themselfs Macedonians (Fake Macedonians) today when Greece took over the occupied Macedonia in 1913.
End of Story.

Is that why so many ethonographical mappers from around that time period when designing theri maps added absolutely NO macedonians? Give it up.

Austian ethnographer Ami Boue, outsider of the balkan presenting his map of the balkans in 1847:

4749
Taking a look at this map it is clear why Bulgaria thought itself cheated after the first balkan war when Greece and Serbia acuired alot of land that contained bulgarians, thus went to war against the former for more, which failed.

Elias2
14-04-11, 01:23
Modern greece was founded on two populations of people; Greeks and Arvanites, which are orthodox christian albanians. Arvanites were essential in helping Greece during the war of idependance from the Ottomans.

Arvanites:

Arvanites (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Αρβανίτες, Arvanitika (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanitika): Arbëreshë or Αρbε̰ρεσ̈ε̰) are a population group in Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) who traditionally speak Arvanitika (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanitika), a dialect of the Albanian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language). They settled in Greece during the late Middle Ages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages) and were the dominant population element of some regions of the Peloponnese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnese) and Attica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attica) until the 19th century.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanite#cite_note-Hall29-0) Arvanites today self-identify as Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanite#cite_note-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanite#cite_note-ghm-2)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanite#cite_note-Hart-3) as the result of a process of assimilation, and do not consider themselves to belong to Albania or the Albanian nation.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanite#cite_note-4) They call themselves Arvanites (in Greek) and Arbëror (in their language); the communities in northern Greece also use the term Shqiptar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shqiptar) (the same used by Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians) of Albania), a term strongly disliked by all the other Arvanites, who also resent being called Albanians.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanite#cite_note-ghm-2)

The christian "turks" Dejavu is talking about were thracian and anatolian greeks that fled after the pontic genocide. many resettled in northern greece.

During World War I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I) and its aftermath (1914–1923), the government of the Ottoman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) instigated a violent campaign against the Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Greeks) population of the Empire. The campaign included massacres, forced deportations involving death marches, and summary expulsions. According to various sources, several hundred thousand Ottoman Greeks died during this period.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide#cite_note-0) Some of the survivors and refugees, especially those in Eastern provinces, took refuge in the neighbouring Russian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Empire). After the end of the 1919–22 Greco-Turkish War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_%281919%E2%80%931922%29), most of the Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks) remaining in the Ottoman Empire were transferred to Greece under the terms of the 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey).

According to various sources the Greek death toll in the Pontus region of Anatolia ranges from 300,000 to 360,000. Estimates for the death toll of Anatolian Greeks as a whole are significantly higher.
According to the International League for the Rights and Liberation of Peoples, between 1916 and 1923, up to 350,000 Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_people) Pontians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontus) were reportedly killed in massacres, persecution and death marches.[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide#cite_note-UNdoc-30) Merrill D. Peterson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merrill_D._Peterson) cites the death toll of 360,000 for the Greeks of Pontus.[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide#cite_note-Peterson-31) According to George K. Valavanis "The loss of human life among the Pontian Greeks, since the Great War (World War I) until March 1924, can be estimated at 353,000, as a result of murders, hangings, and from punishment, disease, and other hardships."[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide#cite_note-Valavanis-32)
Constantine G Hatzidimitriou writes that "loss of life among Anatolian Greeks during the WWI period and its aftermath was approximately 735,370."[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide#cite_note-33) Edward Hale Bierstadt states that "According to official testimony, the Turks since 1914 have slaughtered in cold blood 1,500,000 Armenians, and 500,000 Greeks, men women and children, without the slightest provocation.".[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide#cite_note-Bierstadt-34) At the Lausanne conference in late 1922 the British Foreign Minister Lord Curzon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Curzon) is recorded as saying "a million Greeks have been killed, deported or have died."[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide#cite_note-35)

Elias2
14-04-11, 01:28
Next time you call these poeple christian turks, think before you speak.

iapetoc
14-04-11, 15:41
Modern greece was founded on two populations of people; Greeks and Arvanites, which are orthodox christian albanians. Arvanites were essential in helping Greece during the war of idependance from the Ottomans.

Well we are not sure about them,
many lingustic as many genetists, do not put Arbanites in the Albanians,
the only sure is that majority of Arbanites 150 000 in 1981 is simmilar tosk speaking,
in fact modern archaologiacal proves that the city the Albanians call Albanopolis is not the claydius ptolemy Albanopolis, and not the Arbanon of Anna Comneni

We cannot be certain that the Arbanon of Anna Comnena is the same as Albanopolis of the Albani, a place located on the map of Ptolemy
Wilkes, J. J. The Illyrians, 1992

in fact modern Genetic and theories are connecting Albanians with Transylvania (Cumans or Thracians, or south Slavic) ,
and Arbanites with Italy and Illyria proprie dicti

Even Arbanites great scientists are confused about that,
they are only certain in that they speak a language-dialect simmilar to tosk, but with another syntax.
so Arbanites which were in first National gathering and counsils, are not considered minority but founders,
remember that in ottoman occupation allowed languages exept Turk was the Albanian, the Arabic and the Russian in many areas where Greek was forbiden,

DejaVu
14-04-11, 16:31
if you warship alexander the great ---->then you warship an hellenistic culture---->then you feel hellene---->you feel akin to greeks.

Just admit it, also southern italy has greek ancestry and culture, they feel italian but they don't bash greeks from greece either, and they don't get in argument claiming that pitagora was italic, they claim he was greek, and let them recognise him as one of their culture but as well of the culture of magna grecia in italy.

You dont know nothing and your statement is empty, why dont you link to the evidence of ancient macedonians are greeks? Greek country never existed and is unvalid do you understand that there is no ancient greeks they are gone forever same is for the romans. There are pretenders only = fake.
Self-determination exist and its free for all people and countries, not exclusive for some only.

This is what happens when the Romans ruled, they used falsification of territory and identity of people.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/Byzantine_Macedonia_1045CE.svg/423px-Byzantine_Macedonia_10%2045CE.svg.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Slavic_tribes_in_the_Balkans.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Slavic_tribes_in_the_Balkans.png)
The "Sklavinias" in the Balkans, 7th–8th centuries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaviniae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaviniae)



Sklavinia(i) (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Σκλαβινίαι, Latin (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Latin_language): SCLAVINIAE) was the Greek term for the Slav settlements (area, territory) which were initially out of Byzantine control and independent. The term may be interpreted as "Slav lands" in Byzantium. The term is derived from the name Sclaveni (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sclaveni), which was used to describe all Slavic peoples with whom the Byzantine Empire came in contact. The Sclaviniae of the Byzantine Empire eventually became South Slavic nations:

The Serbs (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Serbs) became allies to the Byzantine Emperor (hypekooi (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mixobarbaroi)) and eventually became independent.
The Bulgars fought the Byzantine Empire and were through a peace treaty after 680 recognized as an independent state (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/First_Bulgarian_Empire), they subsequently merged with the Slavs in Eastern Balkans into the modern nation of Bulgarians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Bulgarians).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/RomanEmpire_117.svg/800px-RomanEmpire_117.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/RomanEmpire_117.svg)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/Invasions_of_the_Roman_Empire_1.png/800px-Invasions_of_the_Roman_Empire_1.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Invasions_of_the_Roman_Empire_1.png)

Collapse of the Western Empire (395–476)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/476eur.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/476eur.jpg)

What was slavic people?
Was all Sclaviniae same people, or was it again a roman way to describe all people outside the borders of Rome as it was before, Barbarians (Germania was not inhabited only of todays Germans)?
Did the Romans ask the people what they were, dont think so, they did not care.

DejaVu
14-04-11, 16:32
MACEDONIA IS NOT GREEK! MACEDONIA IS MACEDONIA! NEVER WAS GREEK AND NEVER WILL BE!


Map of Homeric Greece
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Homeric_Greece.svg/719px-Homeric_Greece.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Homeric_Greece.svg)

Homer - Greek epic poet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer

HERODOTUS

CONCLUSION

Among the Greeks there exist a common bond, a community of blood and language, temples and rituals and common customs. This expressed kinship between the Greek allies is evident and it stands in stark contrast against the references used towards the Macedonians who were addressed as foreigners. We have seen that Herodotus (7.130) speaks of the Thessalians as the first Greeks to come under Persian submission (although the Persians entered Macedonia first), and here he, using his own words clearly excludes the Macedonians from the ancient Greeks. We are therefore, left with the conclusion that Herodotus did not consider the Macedonians to be Greeks. As Borza had written, "Both Herodotus and Thucydides describe the Macedonians as foreigners, a distinct people living outside of the frontiers of the Greek city-states" � Eugene Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus p. 96.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Homeric_greece.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Homeric_greece.png)

Herodotus - Greek historian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus

Thucydides - Greek historian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides

Eugene Borza - Professor emeritus of ancient history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_N._Borza

In 351 the great Athenian orator Demosthenes delivered the first of his Philippics, a series of speeches warning the Athenians about the Macedonian menace to Greek liberty. The great Athenian statesman, spoke of Philip II: "... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave."




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_N._Borza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_N._Borza)
Eugene N. Borza was a professor emeritus of ancient history at Pennsylvania State University (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pennsylvania_State_University). He has written many works on the ancient kingdom of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_(ancient_kingdom)).



Published works

1962 - The Bacaudae: A Study of Rebellion in Late Roman Gaul (University of Chicago, Department of History)
1974 - The Impact of Alexander the Great (http://books.google.com/books?id=kXtPAAAACAAJ&dq) (Dryden Press, ISBN 003090000X (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Special:BookSources/003090000X))
1990 - In the Shadow of Olympus: The Emergence of Macedon (http://books.google.com/books?id=614pd07OtfQC&printsec=frontcover&hl) (Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691008809 (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Special:BookSources/0691008809))
1995 - Makedonika (http://books.google.com/books?id=YtD5HQAACAAJ&dq=Makedonika&hl) (Regina Books, ISBN 0941690652 (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Special:BookSources/0941690652))
Eugene Borza

Who Were (and Are) the Macedonians?
(Abstract from a paper presented at the 1996 Annual meeting of the American PhilologicalAssociation http://www.apaclassics.org/AnnualMeeting/96program.html (http://www.apaclassics.org/AnnualMeeting/96program.html))
This paper seeks to illuminate the problems associated with determining the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians (were
they Greek?), and to discuss the "reverberations" (to use the organizers' term) of that issue in modem times. While the
1971 OED may regard the use of the word "ethnicity" as obsolete, no adequate substitute for the word exists. Indeed,
part of the discussion in my paper will, following the lead of Loring Danforth in his recent The Macedonian Conflict.-
Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World (Princeton 1995), attempt to illustrate some principles by which the "ethnicity"
of the ancient Macedonians--and, perhaps, other ancient peoples--can be discussed in a coherent manner.

Among the questions asked as appropriate to a methodological model of determining ethnicity are:

I. What were a people's origins and what language did they speak? From the surviving literary sources
(Hesiod, Herodotus, and Thucydides) there is little information about Macedonian origins, and the
archaeological data from the early period is sparse and inconclusive. On the matter of language, and despite
attempts to make Macedonian a dialect of Greek, one must accept the conclusion of the linguist R. A.
Crossland in the recent CAH, that an insufficient amount of Macedonian has survived to know what language
it was. But it is clear from later sources that Macedonian and Greek were mutually unintelligible in the court
of Alexander the Great. Moreover, the presence in Macedonia of inscriptions written in Greek is no more
proof that the Macedonians were Greek than, e.g., the existence of Greek inscriptions on Thracian vessels
and coins proves that the Thracians were Greeks.

II. Self-identity: what did the Macedonians say or think about themselves? Virtually nothing has survived
from the Macedonians themselves (they are among the silent peoples of antiquity), and very little remains in
the Classical and Hellenistic non-Macedonian sources about Macedonian attitudes.

III. What did others say about the Macedonians? Here there is a relative abundance of information from
Arrian, Plutarch (Alexander, Eumenes), Diodorus 17-20, Justin, Curtius Rufus, and Nepos (Eumenes),
based upon Greek and Greek-derived Latin sources. It is clear that over a five-century span of writing in two
languages representing a variety of historiographical and philosophical positions the ancient writers regarded
the Greeks and Macedonians as two separate and distinct peoples whose relationship was marked by
considerable antipathy, if not outright hostility.

IV. What is the nature of cultural expressions as revealed by archaeology? As above we are blessed with an
increasing amount of physical evidence revealing information about Macedonian tastes in art and decoration,
religion, political and economic institutions, architecture and settlement patterns. Clearly the Macedonians
were in many respects Hellenized, especially on the upper levels of their society, as demonstrated by the
excavations of Greek archaeologists over the past two decades. Yet there is much that is different, e. g., their
political institutions, burial practices, and religious monuments.

I will argue that, whoever the Macedonians were, they emerged as a people distinct from the Greeks who lived to the south and east. In time their royal court--which probably did not have Greek origins (the tradition in Herodotus that the Macedonian kings were descended from Argos is probably a piece of Macedonian royal propaganda)--became Hellenized in many respects, and I shall review the influence of mainstream Greek culture on architecture, art, and literary preferences.

DejaVu
14-04-11, 16:38
Bible information.

DANIEL 8:20-21
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calc...html?bcb=right (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom25.iii.xxv.html?bcb=right)
20. The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
By the word “Javan” the Hebrews designate not only the Greeks but the: Macedonians, and the whole of that tract which is divided by the Hellespont, from Asia Minor as far as Illyricum. Therefore the meaning is — the king of Greece.


http://www.openbible.info/ (http://www.openbible.info/)

Acts 16:9 (http://bible.cc/acts/16-9.htm) A vision appeared to Paul in the night. There was a man of Macedonia standing, begging him, and saying, "Come over into Macedonia and help us."

Acts 16:10 (http://bible.cc/acts/16-10.htm) When he had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go out to Macedonia, concluding that the Lord had called us to preach the Good News to them.
Acts 16:12 (http://bible.cc/acts/16-12.htm) and from there to Philippi, which is a city of Macedonia, the foremost of the district, a Roman colony. We were staying some days in this city.
Acts 18:5 (http://bible.cc/acts/18-5.htm) But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ.
Acts 19:21 (http://bible.cc/acts/19-21.htm) Now after these things had ended, Paul determined in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, "After I have been there, I must also see Rome."
Acts 19:22 (http://bible.cc/acts/19-22.htm) Having sent into Macedonia two of those who served him, Timothy and Erastus, he himself stayed in Asia for a while.
Acts 20:1 (http://bible.cc/acts/20-1.htm) After the uproar had ceased, Paul sent for the disciples, took leave of them, and departed to go into Macedonia.
Acts 20:3 (http://bible.cc/acts/20-3.htm) When he had spent three months there, and a plot was made against him by Jews as he was about to set sail for Syria, he determined to return through Macedonia.
Romans 15:26 (http://bible.cc/romans/15-26.htm) For it has been the good pleasure of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are at Jerusalem.
1 Corinthians 16:5 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/16-5.htm) But I will come to you when I have passed through Macedonia, for I am passing through Macedonia.
2 Corinthians 1:16 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/1-16.htm) and by you to pass into Macedonia, and again from Macedonia to come to you, and to be sent forward by you on my journey to Judea.
2 Corinthians 2:13 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/2-13.htm) I had no relief for my spirit, because I didn't find Titus, my brother, but taking my leave of them, I went out into Macedonia.
2 Corinthians 7:5 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/7-5.htm) For even when we had come into Macedonia, our flesh had no relief, but we were afflicted on every side. Fightings were outside. Fear was inside.
2 Corinthians 8:1 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/8-1.htm) Moreover, brothers, we make known to you the grace of God which has been given in the assemblies of Macedonia;
2 Corinthians 9:2 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/9-2.htm) for I know your readiness, of which I boast on your behalf to them of Macedonia, that Achaia has been prepared for a year past. Your zeal has stirred up very many of them.
2 Corinthians 11:9 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/11-9.htm) When I was present with you and was in need, I wasn't a burden on anyone, for the brothers, when they came from Macedonia, supplied the measure of my need. In everything I kept myself from being burdensome to you, and I will continue to do so.
Philippians 4:15 (http://bible.cc/philippians/4-15.htm) You yourselves also know, you Philippians, that in the beginning of the Good News, when I departed from Macedonia, no assembly shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving but you only.
1 Thessalonians 1:7 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/1-7.htm) so that you became an example to all who believe in Macedonia and in Achaia.
1 Thessalonians 1:8 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/1-8.htm) For from you the word of the Lord has been declared, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone out; so that we need not to say anything.
1 Thessalonians 4:10 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/4-10.htm) for indeed you do it toward all the brothers who are in all Macedonia. But we exhort you, brothers, that you abound more and more; 1 Timothy 1:3 (http://bible.cc/1_timothy/1-3.htm) As I urged you when I was going into Macedonia, stay at Ephesus that you might command certain men not to teach a different doctrine,

If Greece is same as Macedonia why dont they use the name Greece?



Bible Study Lesson for Acts 20:1-6: Through Macedonia and Greece

Acts chapter 20 can be broken up into two short and one long section. Verses 1-6 briefly describes Paul's travels in Macedonia and Greece. Verses 7-12 describes the story of how a young man named Eutychus was raised from the dead. Verses 13-38 describes Paul's emotional farewell to the elders from Ephesus.

Read Acts 20:1. Paul, remember, is currently on his third missionary journey. { Hand out books with the third missionary journey maps. Ask them to find Ephesus on their maps } My commentary said Paul had four main things he wanted to accomplish: 1) Leave Ephesus; 2) preach in Troas on his way to Macedonia { Ask the group to find Troas on their maps }; 3) meet Titus at Troas with a report from Corinth. This is based on 2 Corinthians 2:12-13; and 4) continue collecting an offer for the church in Judea. This is based on 1 Corinthians 16:1-4, 2 Corinthians 8:1-4. The Jerusalem (http://www.associatedcontent.com/topic/19209/jerusalem.html) church, at this time, may have been poverty stricken either because of famine or because of persecution.

Read Acts 20:2-3. Luke does not give us specifics about Paul's travel through Macedonia into Greece, but it is believed that the three months spent in Greece was in Corinth. { Ask group to look at their maps again and trace Paul's estimated path from Ephesus to Corinth } My commentary said that these three months were probably the winter months, when it would not have been safe to sail. It is during his time in Corinth that he would have received the collection for the relief of the Judean Christians. { Put up symbol of money bags on flannel board }

When Paul's three months are up, he wants to sail back to Syria (that is Antioch), but discovers a plot against him. My commentary proved this information: "The Jews were determined to take Paul's life; also, at this time he was carrying the offering for the Christians in Judea, so there would have been a temptation for theft as well. The port at Cenchrea would have provided a convenient place for Paul's enemies to detect him as he entered a ship to embark for Syria." So, at the last minute, it sounds like, he changes his mind and decides to retrace his route through Greece and Macedonia.

Why is Macedonia and Greece mentioned as separate countries/nationalities?
Because they are different nations/nationality since the beginning of existence.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament)
The New Testament (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Koine_Greek): Καινὴ Διαθήκη, Kainē Diathēkē) is the second major division of the Christian biblical canon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Christian_biblical_canons), the first such division being the much longer Old Testament (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Old_Testament).
The common languages spoken by both Jews and Gentiles in the Holy Land at the time of Jesus were Aramaic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Aramaic_of_Jesus), Koine Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Koine_Greek), and to a limited extent a colloquial dialect of Mishnaic Hebrew (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mishnaic_Hebrew). All of the books that would eventually form the New Testament were written in Koine Greek, the vernacular dialect in the Roman provinces (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Roman_province) of the Eastern Mediterranean (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mediterranean) at the time. These books were later translated into other languages, most notably, Latin (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Latin), Syriac (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Syriac_language), and Coptic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Coptic_language). However, some of the Church Fathers imply or claim that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hebrew_Gospel_of_Matthew) or Aramaic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Aramaic). Nevertheless, the Gospel of Matthew known today was composed in Greek and is neither directly dependent upon nor a translation of a text in a Semitic language (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Semitic_languages), though the citation of texts from the Old Testament (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Old_Testament) demonstrates that the author of the Gospel of Matthew did know Hebrew.

DOES NOT SAY IT WAS WRITTEN BY ANY GREEK (Koine was not exclusive for Greeks only).



Grecians - Greeks (All non-Jews)
http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/G/GRECIANS;+GREEKS/
In the Old Testament the word "Grecians" occurs but once (Joel 3 (4):6). For references to Greece in the Old Testament see JAVAN. In the King James Version of the Old Testament Apocrypha "Grecians" and "Greeks" are used without distinction, e.g. 1 Macc 1:10; 6:2; 8:9; 2 Macc 4:15,36. Thus, in 1 Macc 1:1, Alexander the Great is spoken of as king of Greece, and in 1 Macc 1:10 the Macedonian empire is called "the kingdom of the Greeks" (basileia Hellenon). In 2 Macc 13:2 the army of Antiochus, king of Syria, is called "Grecian" (dunamis Hellenike), and in 2 Macc 6:8 the "Greek cities" (poleis Hellenides) are Macedonian colonies. Reference is made in 2 Macc 6:1 to an aged Athenian who was sent by Antiochus the king charged with the duty of Hellenizing the Jews; in 2 Macc 9:15 Antiochus vows that he will make the Jews equal to the Athenians; in 1 Macc 12 through 14, reference is made to negotiations of Jonathan, the high priest, with the Spartans, whom he calls brethren, seeking the renewal of a treaty of alliance and amity against the Syrians. With the spread of Greek power and influence, everything not specifically Jewish was called Greek; thus in 2 Macc 4:36; 11:2; 3 Macc 3:3,1 the "Greeks" contrasted with the Jews are simply non-Jews, so called because of the prevalence of Greek institutions and culture, and "Greek" even came to be used in the sense of "anti-Jewish" (2 Macc 4:10,15; 6:9; 11:24).
In Isa 9:12 the Septuagint reads tous Hellenas, for Pelishtim, "Philistines"; but we are not therefore justified in assuming a racial connection between the Philistines and the Greeks. Further light on the ethnography of the Mediterranean
basin may in time show that there was actually such a connection; but the rendering in question proves nothing, since "the oppressing sword" of Jer 46:16 and 50:16 is likewise rendered in the Septuagint with "the sword of the Greeks" (machaira Hellenike). In all these cases the translators were influenced by the conditions existing in their own day, and were certainly not disclosing obscure relations long forgotten and newly discovered.
In the New Testament, English Versions of the Bible attempts to distinguish between (Hellenes), which is rendered "Greeks," and (Hellenistai), which is rendered "Grecians" or "Grecian Jews," or in the Revised Version, margin "Hellenists," e.g. Acts 6:1; 9:29. These latter were Jews of the Dispersion, who spoke Greek (see HELLENISM; HELLENIST), as distinguished from Palestinian Jews; but since many of the latter also spoke Greek by preference, the distinction could in no sense be absolute. Indeed in Jn 7:35, "the Dispersion among (the Revised Version, margin, Greek "of") the Greeks," can hardly refer to any but "Grecian Jews" (Hellenistai), although Hellenes is used, and in Jn 12:20 the "Greeks" (Hellenes) who went up to worship at the feast of the Passover were almost certainly "Grecian Jews" (Hellenistai). Thus, while English Versions of the Bible consistently renders Hellenes with "Greeks," we are not by that rendering apprised of the real character of the people so designated. This difficulty is aggravated by the fact, already noted in connection with the Old Testament Apocrypha, that, in consequence of the spread of Hellenism, the term Hellenes was applied not only to such as were of Hellenic descent, but also to all those who had appropriated the language of Greece, as the universal means of communication, and the ideals and customs collectively known as Hellenism. The latter were thus in the strict sense Hellenists, differing from the "Grecians" of English Versions of the Bible only in that they were not of Jewish descent. In other words, Hellenes (except perhaps in Jn 7:35 and 12:20, as noted above) is, in general, equivalent to ta ethne, "Gentiles" (see GENTILES). The various readings of the manuscripts (and hence the difference between the King James Version and the Revised Version (British and American)) in 1 Cor 1:23 well illustrate this. There is consequently much confusion, which it is quite impossible, with our limited knowledge of the facts in particular cases, to clear up. In general, it would seem probable that where "Greeks" are comprehensively contrasted with "Jews," the reference is to "Gentiles," as in Acts 14:1; 17:4; 18:4; 19:10,17; 20:21; Rom 1:16; 10:12; 1 Cor 1:22-24 (the Revised Version (British and American) "Gentiles," representing ethnesin; Gal 3:28; Col 3:11. In Mk 7:26 the woman of Tyre, called "a Greek (the Revised Version, margin "Gentile") a Syrophoenician," was clearly not of Hellenic descent. Whether Titus (Gal 2:3) and the father of Timothy; (Acts 16:1,3) were in the strict sense "Greeks," we have no means of knowing. In Rom 1:14, "I am debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians," there is an undoubted reference to Greeks strictly so called; possibly, though by no means certainly, the "Greeks" of Acts 21:28, alluding to Trophimus the Ephesian (Acts 21:29), are to be taken in the same sense. References to the Greek language occur in Jn 19:20 (Lk 23:38 is properly omitted in the Revised Version (British and American)); Acts 21:37; Rev 9:11.
In Acts 11:20 the manuscripts vary between Hellenistas, and Hellenas (the King James Version "Grecians," the Revised Version (British and American) "Greeks"), with the preponderance of authority in favor of the former; but even if one adopts the latter, it is not clear whether true Greeks or Gentiles are intended.
William Arthur Heidel


Acts 17 Commentary
http://www.preceptaustin.org/acts_17_commentary.htm

http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/p66.htm (http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/p66.htm)
Silas was a leading member of the first Christian community in Jerusalem and a colleague of Paul. In the epistles 2 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians, he is called by a Roman name, Silvanus. He might have been a Roman citizen (Acts 16:37). In Jerusalem he was a prophet who preached (Acts 15:32) and was sent to Antioch, along with Paul and Barnabas, to convey resolutions adopted at the council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:22).

http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/G/GENTILES/
jen'-tilz (goy, plural goyim; ethnos, "people," "nation"): Goy (or Goi) is rendered "Gentiles" in the King James Version in some 30 passages, but much more frequently "heathen," and oftener still, "nation," which latter is the usual rendering in the Revised Version (British and American), but it, is commonly used for a non-Israelitish people, and thus corresponds to the meaning of Gentiles." It occurs, however, in passages referring to the Israelites, as in Gen 12:2; Dt 32:28; Josh 3:17; 4:1; 10:13; 2 Sam 7:23; Isa 1:4; Zeph 2:9, but the word (`am) is the term commonly used for the people of God. In the New Testament ethnos is the word corresponding to goy in the Old Testament and is rendered "Gentiles" by both VSS, while (laos) is the word which corresponds to `am. The King James Version also renders Hellenes, "Gentiles" in six passages (Jn 7:35; Rom 2:9,10; 3:9; 1 Cor 10:32; 12:13), but the Revised Version (British and American) renders "Greeks."
The Gentiles were far less sharply differentiated from the Israelites in Old Testament than in New Testament times. Under Old Testament regulations they were simply non-Israelites, not from the stock of Abraham, but they were not hated or despised for that reason, and were to be treated almost on a plane of equality, except certain tribes in Canaan with regard to whom there were special regulations of non-intercourse. The Gentile stranger enjoyed the hospitality of the Israelite who was commanded to love him (Dt 10:19), to sympathize with him, "For ye know the heart of the stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt" (Ex 23:9 the King James Version). The Kenites were treated almost as brethren, especially the children of Rechab (Jdg 1:16; 5:24; Jer 35). Uriah the Hittite was a trusted warrior of David (2 Sam 11); Ittai the Gittite was captain of David's guard (2 Sam 18:2); Araunah the Jebusite was a respected resident of Jerusalem. The Gentiles had the right of asylum in the cities of refuge, the same as the Israelites (Nu 35:15). They might even possess Israelite slaves (Lev 25:47), and a Gentileservant must not be defrauded of his wage (Dt 24:15). They could inherit in Israel even as late as the exile (Ezek 47:22,23). They were allowed to offer sacrifices in the temple at Jerusalem, as is distinctly affirmed by Josephus (BJ, II, xvii, 2-4; Ant, XI, viii, 5; XIII, viii, 2; XVI, ii, 1; XVIII, v, 3; CAp, II, 5), and it is implied in the Levitical law (Lev 22:25). Prayers and sacrifices were to be offered for Gentilerulers (Jer 29:7; Baruch 1:10,11; Ezr 6:10; 1 Macc 7:33; Josephus, BJ, II, x, 4). Gifts might be received from them (2 Macc 5:16; Josephus, Ant, XIII, iii, 4; XVI, vi, 4; BJ, V, xiii, 6; CAp, II, 5). But as we approach the Christian era the attitude of the Jews toward the Gentiles changes, until we find, in New Testament times, the most extreme aversion, scorn and hatred. They were regarded as unclean, with whom it was unlawful to have any friendly intercourse. They were the enemies of God and His people, to whom the knowledge of God was denied unless they became proselytes, and even then they could not, as in ancient times, be admitted to full fellowship. Jews were forbidden to counsel them, and if they asked about Divine things they were to be cursed. All children born of mixed marriages were bastards. That is what caused the Jews to be so hated by Greeks and Romans, as we have abundant evidence in the writings of Cicero, Seneca and Tacitus. Something of this is reflected in the New Testament (Jn 18:28; Acts 10:28; 11:3).
If we inquire what the reason of this change was we shall find it in the conditions of the exiled Jews, who suffered the bitterest treatment at the hands of their Gentile captors and who, after their return and establishment in Judea, were in constant conflict with neighboring tribes and especially with the Greek rulers of Syria. The fierce persecution of Antiochus IV, who attempted to blot out their religion and Hellenize the Jews, and the desperate struggle for independence, created in them a burning patriotism and zeal for their faith which culminated in the rigid exclusiveness we see in later times.
H. Porter

DejaVu
14-04-11, 16:40
Why the Byzantine Empire was not a "Greek Empire"?

Within the last two centuries, we have seen the western literature label the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire) as "Greek Empire". Once again this is largely to the inventions and distortions of the western historians of the 19th century, who also falsely ascribed "Greek" ethnicity to the ancient Macedonians (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/MacedoniansStyledGreeks.html). These people took the fact that Greek was used as the language of the Empire and declared that the Empire was ruled by "Greeks", had "Greek" armies, "Greek" churches, and "Greek" art. In other words they spoke of the Byzantine Empire as a "Greek Empire", a view which had been completely supported and propagated by the modern Greeks as well.
Along with distorting the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians, the labeling of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire into "Greek" is one of the greatest fabrications of the western and modern Greek writers (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/criticism.html). Although it is true that Greek was used as the language of the Empire, that can not be taken as proof that the empire was "Greek". Latin was the original official language, imposed by the Romans who established and ruled the Roman Empire. In 395 AD when the Roman Empire split into western and eastern (Byzantine), Latin continued to be used as the official language but in time it was replaced by Greek as that language was already widely spoken among the Eastern Mediterranean nations as the main trade language. Yet the Emperors, the Church clergy, the army, and the artists, although they spoke Latin and Greek, where not exclusively of Greek ethnicity. The Empire was made up of many nationalities - Thracians, Macedonians, Illyrians, Bythinians, Carians, Phrygians, Armenians, Lydians, Galatians, Paphlagonians, Lycians, Syrians, Cilicians, Misians, Cappadocians, etc. The Greeks composed only a small portion of this multi-ethnic Empire and evidence shows that they did not posses much of the power either, for we know exactly who were the Byzantine Emperors, and we know they were not ethnic Greeks.

The earlier Byzantine Emperors were Romans but in time people of different ethnic backgrounds ruled this multi-ethnic empire. It is known that the empire reached its zenith while it was ruled by the Macedonians (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/RomanMacedonia/macedonianemperors.html) while the Macedonian Dynasty (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/RomanMacedonia/MacedonianEpoch.htm) was on power for almost two centuries. Other dynasties that ruled were the Syrian, Armenian, Phrygian (Amorian), and other emperors were of various nationalities. Having in mind the ethnic diversity of the empire, the Church clergy, the army, and the artists, also came from the many different nationalities, and were not exclusively ethnic Greeks. The Byzantine historians often speak of "Macedonian army", "Thracian army", "Roman army". The Thracians, Macedonians, Illyrians, Bythinians, Carians, Phrygians, Armenians, Lydians, Galatians, Paphlagonians, Lycians, Syrians, Cilicians, Misians, Cappadocians, had to speak Latin and Greek in order to communicate among themselves, but they must have used their original languages to communicate within their own ethnic boundaries, which of course does not make them "Greeks".

Thus it is inaccurate to call the Byzantine Empire a "Greek Empire" and falsely ascribe its greatness to the Greeks, when in fact it is the non-Greeks who gave the greatest contribution in its progress. The inaccurate 19th century western historiography (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/MacedoniansStyledGreeks.html) needs another major revision, just like the one it already went through regarding the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/ModernHistorians.html). Otherwise it will continue to be unreliable and biased.

DejaVu
14-04-11, 16:49
Who are the Modern Greeks?


http://macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/greece1stconstitution1827.jpg
The first constitution of Greece 1827.

The 1st Constitution of the Greek State, in the year 1827.
??? —> 4. Provinces of Greece are all those that were taken and will be taken by weapons against the Ottoman Dynasty.
1) —> 6. Greeks are:
2) —> a. All those indigenous people of the Greek State who believe in Christ.
3) —> b. All those, believers in Christ, who under the Ottoman slavery, came or they will come to the Greek State to struggle or to reside in it.
4) —> e. All those aliens, who come and enrol as citizens.
NOTE: To become a Greek, it was enough to be a Christian!
This document proves that Greeks have a very short memory. They do not remember how the Greek State was made and also who the modern Greeks are.
Why should we Macedonians have to prove that we are Macedonians since antiquity when the Greeks do not have to prove anything for being Greeks.
The fact is that about 180 years ago anybody who was a Christian in the Greek State became a Greek automatically, why does that not bother the modern Greeks?
You see, if someone was a Jew or a Muslim or a Catholic, he/she was excluded immediately. Let us now ask ourselves what is Greek racism and were did it come from?
Just read the above document and you will know why, Greek is a manufactured ethnicity.



Rigas the Vlach defines who is a Greek 1797!

http://macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/157.png
http://macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/158.png
http://macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/159.png
Source: “The Movement for Greek Independence, 1770-1821: A Collection of Documents” by Richard Clogg, 1976.

I hope that you readers will understand that anyone could be a Greek, the rules for becoming a Greek was not that harsh, thus Greeks claiming a 4000 year old ancestry become quite ridiculous.
When they do not even have a 200 year old history.
They are a modern fabrication of the thinkers and philhellenes of the day, which was materialized in absurdum when the “pure” Greek king from Bavaria, King Othon the Hellene started to rule his kingdom.
Which prior to his rule had never existed in history.
Greece is a modern myth.

DejaVu
14-04-11, 16:51
The Flag Dispute between Greece and the Republic of Macedonia

Introduction
Official Greece accuses its northern neighbour, the Republic of Macedonia for "stealing the Ancient Greek heritage", which according to the Greek side also includes Ancient Macedonia and its symbols, one of them being the so called Sun of Vergina. The symbol was once used as an emblem on the flag of the Republic of Macedonia, which caused a dispute between the two countries (actually it was an unilateral protest from the Greek side).


Greece is so fast in accusing other nations for "stealing history" that she forgets that she is the one that actually stole a symbol of another nation- an old English flag:
http://spartaks.blogspot.com/2008/04...public-of.html (http://spartaks.blogspot.com/2008/04/flag-dispute-greece-vs-republic-of.html)

DejaVu
14-04-11, 16:51
Minority Violation

Human Rights Watch Report on Greece.
http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/203/9/

U.S. Department of State's Human Rights Report on Greece.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2006/78815.htm

MHRMI 2008 Annual Report on Greece.
http://mhrmi.org/news/2008/january27b_e.asp

European Free Alliance
http://www.e-f-a.org/home.php

21.05.09 Bulgarian authorities confiscate electoral materials RAINBOW party (21/05/2009)
Lack of democracy in Greece and Bulgaria.

The Bulgarian authorities already for several days have confiscated DVD's made in Bulgaria. The DVD's for unclarified reasons cannot cross the border in order to be used by the Party Rainbow in it's campaign for the European elections. Rainbow represents the Macedonian minority in Greece. The DVD contain information on the peacefull political struggle of the Macedonian (ignored and denied) minority in Greece. The Bulgarian authorities already since 2005 refuse to implement a European court of human rights decision to register the party Omo Ilinden Pirin. This party represents the Macedonian minority in Bulgaria. Both members states Bulgaria and Greece deny the existence of such minorities. The evidence of such existence fi the DVD's cannot see the light of day and therefore... are confiscated.

"Greece vigorously denies the existence of any ethnic minorities on its territory and attempts to suppress any voices that advocate human rights. Simply raising the issue of the Macedonian minority in Greece causes Greek citizens and politicians alike to react in outrage. The majority of Greek society supports its government's non-recognition and discrimination of its large Macedonian minority", said MHRMI president Bill Nicholov.

DejaVu
14-04-11, 16:52
Diodorus Siculus
Ancient Greek Historian

The ancient Greek historian Diodorus wrote much of the history of Macedonia from the times of Philip II and Alexander the Great up to the last Macedonian king Perseus. In his writings, Diodorus is clear that the ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation, not related to any of the Balkan peoples (Greeks, Thracians, and Illyrians). The below 40 quotes from his books XVII, XVIII, XIX, XX, XXII, XXVIII, XXIX, XXXI, and XXXII are indeed an overwhelming proof of that:

[1] For even Greeks – Thespians, Plataeans and Orchomenians, and some other hostile to the Thebans who had joined the king (of the Macedonians) in the campaign. 17.13.5.

[2] For many days the king lay helpless under his treatment, and the Greeks who had been settled in Bactria and Sogdiana, who had long borne unhappily their sojourn among peoples of another race and now received word that the king has died of his wounds, revolted against the Macedonians. They formed a band of 3000 men and underwent great hardship on their homeward route. Later they were massacred by the Macedonians after Alexander’s death. 17.99.5-6.

[3] The Macedonians and Alexander backed Coragus because he was one of them while the Greeks favored Dioxippus. 17.100.4.

[4] Then the Macedonian (Coragus) poised his long lance and charged, but the Greek (Dioxippus), when he came within reach, struck the spear with his club and shuttered it. After these two defeats, Coragus was reduced to continuing the battle with sword, but as he reached for it, the other leaped upon him and seized his swordhand with his left, while with his right hand the Greek upset the Macedonian’s balance and made him lose his footing. 17.100.6-7

[5] He (Alexander the Great) was plainly disappointed at the defeat of the Macedonian. Dioxippus released his fallen opponent, and left the field winner of the resounding victory and bedecked with ribands by his compatriots, as having brought a common glory to all Greeks. 17.101.1-2.

[6] From Europe, the Greek cities AND the Macedonians also sent embassies, as well as the Illyrians and most of those who dwell about the Adriatic Sea, the Thracian peoples and even those of their neighbors the Gauls, whose people became known then first in the Greek world. 17.113.2.

[7] When Perdiccas heard of the revolt of the Greeks, he drew by lot from the Macedonians 3000 infantry and 800 horsemen. 18.7.3

[8] They (the Greeks) had more then 20000 foot soldiers and 3000 horse. 18.7.2. 3000 of these 23000 Greeks were led by a "traitor" who "left his allies without warning and withdrew to e certain hill, taking his 3000 men". 18.7.6.

[9] When oaths to this effect had been sworn and the Greeks were interspersed among the Macedonians, Pithon was greatly pleased, seeing that the affair was progressing according to his intentions; but the Macedonians remembering the orders of Perdiccas and having no regard for the oaths that had been sworn, broke faith with the Greeks. Setting upon them unexpectedly and catching them off their ground, they shot them all down with javelins and seized their possessions as plunder. Pithon then, cheated of his hopes, came back with the Macedonians to Perdiccas. 18.7.8-9

[10] When Alexander died a short time thereafter and left no sons as successors to the kingdom, the Athenians ventured to assert their liberty (from Macedonia) and to claim the leadership of the Greeks. 18.9.1

[11] When the Aetolians listened to him gladly they gave him 7000 soldiers, he sent to the Locrians and the Phocians and the other neighboring peoples and urged them to assist their freedom and rid Greece of the Macedonian despotism. 18.9.5.

[12] The decree of the Assembly of Athens: "people should assume responsibility for the common freedom of the Greeks and liberate the cities that were subject to (Macedonian) garrisons; that they should prepare 40 quadriremes and 200 triremes (ships); that all Athenians up to age of 40 should be enrolled; that three tribes should guard Attica, and that the other seven should be ready for campaign beyond the frontier; that envoys should be sent to visit the Greek cities and tell them that formerly the Athenian people, convinced that all Greece was the common fatherland of the Greeks, had fought by see against those (Macedonian) barbarians who had invaded Greece to enslave her, and that now too Athens believed it necessary to risk lives and money and ships in defense of the common safety of the Greeks." 18.10.1-3.

[13] Of the rest of the Greeks, some were well disposed toward the Macedonians, others remained neutral. 18.11.1

[14] A few of the Illyrians and the Thracians joined the alliance (with the Greeks) because of their hatred of the Macedonians. 18.11.1-2

[15] As soon as, however, as he learned of the movement concerted against him by the Greeks, he left Sippas as general of Macedonia, giving him a significant army and bidding him enlist as many men as possible, while he himself, taking 13000 Macedonians and 600 horsemen, set out from Macedonia to Thessaly (into Greece). 18.12.2

[16] Now that this great force had been added to the Athenians, the Greeks, who far outnumbered the Macedonians, were successful. 18.12.4

[17] As the Macedonians defended themselves stoutly, many of the Greeks who pushed on rashly were killed. 18.12.1-2

[18] Antiphilus, the Greek commander, having defeated the Macedonians in a glorious battle played a waiting game, remaining in Thessaly and watching for the enemy to move. The affairs of the Greeks were thus in thriving condition, but since the Macedonians had command of the sea, the Athenians made ready other ships… 18.15.7-8.

[19] Then after such a combat I have described, the battle was broken off, as the scales of victory swung in favour of the Macedonians. More then 500 of the Greeks were killed in the battle, and 130 of the Macedonians. 18.17.5

[20] The commandant of the garrison of that city, Archelaus, who was a Macedonian by RACE, welcomed Attalus and surrendered the city to him… 18.37.3-4.

[21] Seleucus and Pithon again tried to persuade the Macedonians to remove Eumenes from his command and to cease preferring against their own interests a man who was a foreigner and who had killed very many Macedonians. 19.13.1


[22] Peucestes (Macedonian commander) had 10000 Persian archers and slingers, 3000 men of every origin equipped for service in the Macedonian array, 600 Greek and Thracian cavalry and more then 400 Persian horsemen. 19.14.5.


[23] Although the risk involved in all these circumstances was clear, nonetheless she decided to remain there, hoping that many Greeks AND Macedonians would come to her aid by sea. 19.35.6.


[24] Then, after making a truce with the other Boeotians and leaving Eupolemus as general for Greece, he went into Macedonia, for he was apprehensive of the enemy’s crossings. 19.77.5-6

[25] In this year Antigonus ordered his general Ptolemaeus into Greece to set the Greeks free… 19.77.2


[26] Ptolemaeus, the general of Antigonus, had been placed in charge of affairs thoughout Greece; 19.87.3 (not in Macedonia).

[27] This was the situation in Asia and in Greece AND Macedonia. 19.105.4

[28] And first he planned to establish order in the affairs of Greece … and then go on against Macedonia itself if Cassander did not march against him. 20.102.1

[29] While these held office, Cassander, king of the Macedonians, on seeing that the power of the Greeks was increasing and that the whole war was directed against Macedonia, became much alarmed about the future. 20.106.1-2

[30] Demetrius was followed by 1500 horsemen, not less then 8000 Macedonian foot-soldiers, mercenaries to the number of 15000, 2500 from the cities throughout Greece. 20.110.4

[31] The utmost spirit or rivalry was not lacking on either side, for the Macedonians were bent on saving their ships, while the Siceliotes wished not only to be regarded as victors over the Carthaginians and the barbarians of Italy, but also to show themselves in the Greek arena as more then a match for the Macedonians, whose spears had subjected both Asia and Europe. 21.2.2

[32] Brennus, the king of the Gauls … invaded Macedonia and engaged in battle. Having in this conflict lost many man .. as lacking sufficient strength … when later he advanced into Greece and to the oracle of Delphi which he wished to plunder. 22.9.1-2

[33] A native of Terentum, Heracleides was a man of surprising wickedness, who had transformed Philip from a victorious king into a harsh and godless tyrant, and had thereby incurred the deep hatred of all Macedonians AND Greeks. 28.9.2

[34] Flamininus held that Philip (the Macedonian king) must completely evacuate Greece, which should thereafter be ungarrisoned and autonomous. 28.11.1

[35] To this Flamininus replied that there was no need of arbitration whom he ha wronged; furthermore he himself was under orders from the Senate to liberate Greece (from Macedonia). 28.11.3-4

[36] When the news of settlement reached him, Flamininus summoned the leading men of all Greece, and convoking an assembly repeated to them Rome’s good services to the Greeks. 28.13.2 (Macedonians excluded from the leading men of Greece)

[37] In defense of the settlement made with Nabis he (Flamininus) pointed out that the Romans had done what was in their power, and that in accordance with the declared policy of the Roman people all the inhabitants of Greece were now free (of Macedonia), ungarrisoned, and most important of all, governed by their own laws. 28.13.3

[38] Philip threatens the Greek Thessalians: "They were not aware, he said, that the Macedonian sun had not yet altogether set." 29.16.1-2

[39] He said, namely, that after seeing the sun rise as he was about to begin transporting his army from Italy to Greece… five day later he arrived in Macedonia. 31-11.2-4

[40] Having as his accomplice a certain harpist named Nicolaus, a Macedonian by birth… 32.15.9

DejaVu
14-04-11, 16:54
Victor A Friedman

"Macedonian slavic is the root to all slavic languages"

Victor Friedman received his B.A. in Russian Language and Literature from Reed College in 1970 and his Ph. D. in both Slavic Languages and Literatures and in General Linguistics from the University of Chicago in 1975. This was the first joint degree granted in the Division of the Humanities at Chicago, and his dissertation, “The Grammatical Categories of the Macedonian Indicative” won the Mark Perry Galler prize for the best dissertation in the Humanities Division that year. From 1975 to 1993 he taught in the Department of Slavic Languages at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, where he chaired the Department from 1987 to 1993. In 1993 he moved to the University of Chicago, where he is Andrew W. Mellon Professor in the Humanities with a joint appointment in Linguistics and Slavic Languages and Literatures and an associate appointment in Anthropology. He has over 200 publications, and The Grammatical Categories of the Macedonian Indicative (Slavica, 1977) was the first book on Modern Macedonian published in the United States.

Friedman has done fieldwork in the Balkans for over thirty-five years and has received research grants from Fulbright-Hays, IREX, ACLS, NEH, APS, etc. In 1982 he received the "1300 Years of Bulgaria" jubilee medal for contributions to the field of Bulgarian studies. In 1991 and again in 2003, he was awarded the University of Skopje Gold Plaque for contributions to the field of Macedonian studies, and in 1994 he was elected to the Macedonian Academy of Arts and Sciences. In 1995 he was elected to Matica Srpska, and in 2004 he was elected to the Academy of Arts and Sciences of Kosova. During the Yugoslav Wars of Succession, he worked as a Senior Policy and Political Analyst for the Analysis and Assessment Unit of the United Nations Protection Forces stationed in former Yugoslavia (summer 1994), joined a fact finding mission for the South Balkan Project of the Center for Preventive Action of the Council on Foreign Relations (1995-1997), consulted for the International Crisis Group (1997), and did some work with the United States Institute for Peace (1999-2000). He has been a visiting scholar at Cornell (Balkan linguistics, LSA summer institute 1997), University of Skopje (Balkan Identity, 1999), Central European University-Budapest (Romani linguistics 1999, 2001, 2003), Kyoto University (Balkan linguistics, 1999), National University of Malaysia (Southeast Europe/Southeast Asia: Comparative Perspectives, 2000), University of Helsinki (Balkan linguistics, 2000), University of Prishtina (Balkan and Caucasian linguistics, 2002), and LaTrobe University (Research Center for Linguistic Typology, Balkan linguistics, 2004).

Friedman’s research centers on grammatical categories (particularly the verb), language contact, and sociolinguistics (especially problems of variation and standardization) in the Balkans and the Caucasus. Owing to the intimate connections of language with politics and ethnic identity in these parts of the world, his work has of necessity been interdisciplinary. His publications deal with the following languages: Albanian, Aromanian (Vlah), Azeri, Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian (especially the Torlak dialects), Bulgarian, Georgian, Greek, Judezmo, Lak, Macedonian, Megleno-Romanian, Romani, Romanian, Russian, Tadjik, Turkish.

"We know what Ancient Greek, Latin, and Old Church Slavonic, and Sanskrit look liked, and we have Turkic texts going back to the 8th century. We know what these languages looked like in the early medieval period. For Albanian, our oldest significant texts are from the early modern period. We know these changes, these grammatical influences, were taking place in the late medieval and early Ottoman periods (although some are older in some languages). It was really in the Ottoman period that the Balkan languages as we know them today came to resemble one another."

"The Bulgarians didn’t have a state until the Russo-Turkish War of 1878."

"Arvanatika - Most precisely, it refers to the Albanian dialects of Greece that separated from the main body of Tosk Albanian 600-1000 years ago. The dialects were spoken on many Greek islands, the Peloponnese, and in Attica and Central Greece. Greeks don’st like to admit it, but they have had large Albanian-speaking populations for a very long time, not just post-Communist economic migrants. While these dialects are now moribund owing to hegemonistic Greek language policies, they can still be encountered in places like Livadhia."

"But already in the 19th century, Macedonian speakers were calling themselves Macedonians (Makedontsi), their language, Makedonski. This is documented.
Some Macedonian speakers identified as Bulgarians,Serbs, Greeks or Turks, depending on religious loyalties, but most of the time, speakers called themselves Christians or Turks (Muslims)."



Macedonian is the origin of all slavic languages Webster Dictionary year 1967-1969!

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Indoeuropean_languages.jpg
Taken from the Webster Dictionary 1967-1969.

DejaVu
14-04-11, 16:55
iGENEA http://www.igenea.com/

Genealogy . What is this?
A DNA genealogical test shows you the haplogroup (going back 60,000 years ago), the ancient tribe your ancestors belonged to and where your ancestors came from 40 generations ago, which takes you back to the 11th / 13th centuries. You receive information about the maternal and paternal lines. DNA genealogy also allows you to locate "genetic cousins," i.e. persons who share a common ancestor with you. When you exchange information, like family trees, with your "genetic cousins",you expand your knowledge of your own family history.

DNA genealogy – how does it work?
Information is encoded into your genes (DNA) that today give indications of your history and your ancestors. By analysing certain parts of your DNA and comparing the results with those of other persons, it is possible to find out whether you and those persons have shared ancestry.

A antic macedonian genetic profile exists and has been discovered through the comparison of archaeological funds and persons with macedonian roots. These studies enable us to determine the macedonian roots of a person. We have 30% of macedonians in Macedonia, 20% in Greece and minorities in Bulgaria and Albania.

I would like to know the specific distinction of how the antic Macedonian gene, is different from the Hellenic gene?

Yes, but the difference is not so big. The Hellenic profile demands specific allelvalues from the Y-DYS in Locus 2-8 and the macedonian profil from locus 2-10. The genetic profile is nearly identical, but the antic macedonian demands two more mutations.



Genetic Differences Between Macedonians in Greece and the Greeks.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/29.../1155.abstract (http://www.sciencemag.org/content/290/5494/1155.abstract)
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Co...Hromosomes.pdf (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/Y_Hromosomes.pdf)

In the genetic analysis published by the Science Magazine of the American Association for
the Advancement of Science, participated Macedonians from the Macedonian minority of
Northern Greece (Aegean Macedonia) and Greeks, among with other European nations.


HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506?dopt=Abstract)
http://www.makedonika.org/processpai...id=ti.2001.pdf (http://www.makedonika.org/processpaid.aspcontentid=ti.2001.pdf)

Arnaiz-Villena A, Dimitroski K, Pacho A, Moscoso J, Gómez-Casado E, Silvera-Redondo C,
Varela P, Blagoevska M, Zdravkovska V, Martínez-Laso J.

Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense,
Madrid, Spain. [email protected]

HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia
by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended
haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other
Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances,
neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed.
The following conclusions have been reached:

1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum,
like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese,
Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians,
2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks,
who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum
3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people,
which separate them from other Mediterranean groups.
Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles.

DejaVu
14-04-11, 16:55
There are 131 countries which makes more than 2/3 of the United Nations that recognize Republic of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia) under its constitutional name as of 18 January, Bolivia being the last one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/66/Macedonia_name_dispute.png/800px-Macedonia_name_dispute.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/66/Macedonia_name_dispute.png)

List of countries/entities
(dark green) that use "Republic of Macedonia" in bilateral diplomatic relations.
(red) that use "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" for all official purposes.
(green) whose official position on the issue is unknown.
(grey) that have no diplomatic relations with the country

DejaVu
14-04-11, 16:56
The Existence of a Macedonian Minority in Greece!

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/time_almanac_2010-front.png (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/time_almanac_2010-front.png)
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/time_almanac_2010-287.png
1.8% ethnic Macedonians in Greece.
1.5% Albanians in Greece.
1.4% Turks in Greece.
0.9% Pomaks in Greece.
0.9% Roms (Gypsies) in Greece.
3.1% Other nationality in Greece.
90.4% Greeks in Greece.


Greece does not recognize Macedonian minority in Greece.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece)
And this are the statistics in Wikipedia.
93.8% Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greeks),
4.3% Albanian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Albanians),
1.9% others

1.8% Macedonians in Greece of 11,239 millions total people = more then 200 000 Macedonians.
(The others are afraid of losing their job by self-determination)

The Macedonians of Greece speak out! (over 1 million Macedonians in Greece)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnPp5740zXg

DejaVu
14-04-11, 17:03
Ancient Macedonians were in fact Greeks?

Ancient Quotes on the Macedonians as Distinct Nation

The ancient Greek, Roman, and Jewish historians, geographers, and orators, speak of the Macedonians as distinct nation, separate from their Greek, Thracian, and Illyrian neighbors. They are clear that Macedonia was never part of Greece and that the Macedonians conquered Greece, Thrace, and Illyria, and kept the Greeks, Thracians, and Illyrians enslaved, until Rome defeated the Macedonian armies and turned the country into its first province in 168 BC. The assertion of those modern historians that propagate that the Macedonians "were Greeks" which have "united" Greece, is absurd and is completely unsupported by the words of the ancients who clearly considered Greece subjected by the Macedonian foreigners. The Macedonians garrisoned the Greek cities (like the Thracian and Illyrian cities) to enforce their occupation, and later used the Greeks (along with equal numbers of the Thracians and Illyrians) for their conquest of Persia.



1) Diodorus (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/diodorus.html)
12) Plutarch (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/plutarch.html)
2) Justin (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/justin.html)
13) Livy (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/livy.html)
3) Arrian (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/arrian.html)
14) Polybius (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/Polybius.html)
4) Curtius Rufus (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/curtius.html)
15) Thracymachus (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/Thracymachus.html)
5) Thucydides (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/Thucydides.html)
16) Herodotus (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/herodotus.html)
6) Isocrates (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/isocrates.html)
17) Demosthenes (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/demosthenes.html)
7) Ephoros (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/Ephoros.html)
18) Josephus (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/Josephus.html)
8) Ptolemy (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/Ptolemy.html)
19) Strabo (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/strabo.html)
9) Pausanias (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/pausanias.html)
20) Dionysius Periegetes (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/Dionysius1.html)
10) Medius of Larisa (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/medeius.html)
21) Pseudo-Scylax (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/PseudoSkylax.html)
11) Pseudo-Herodotus (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/PseudoHerodotus.html)
22) Dionysius son of Kalliphon (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/DionysiusSon.html)


The ancient Greeks did not regard the Macedonians as Greeks, nor the Macedonians regarded themselves to be Greek. They were proud of their Macedonian nationality and way of life, and looked down upon the Greeks and with contempt. The Greeks called them barbarians, along with the Persians, Illyrians, and Thracians, a label that they attributed to all non-Greeks who neither spoke nor understood the Greek language. Alexander's Macedonian Army was not a "Greek army" as some modern writers have erroneously claimed, nor the Macedonian conquest of Asia was a "Greek conquest". The fact is that not one ancient writer has called the Macedonian empire "Greek" or the Macedonian army and conquest "Greek", but specifically Macedonian. When Rome clashed with Macedonia, the Macedonians were ordered by the Romans to evacuate from the whole of Greece and withdraw to Macedonia. They were hated by the Greeks ever since Philip II defeated the Greeks at Chaeronea in 338 BC and brought Greece to its kneel, and the Greeks fought fiercely, first on the side of the Persians and later on the side of the Romans to expel the Macedonians from their country. Too late would they realize that the Macedonian occupation would only be replaced by the Roman. In between the Greeks fought many unsuccessful wars against the Macedonians to drive them out of Greece, among which the Lamian War is the most famous. It should be noted that the Lamian War was triggered by the death of Alexander the Great, which encouraged the Greeks to rebel.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamian_War

The “Lamian War”, also referred to as the “Hellenic War” and the “War against Antipater”, was fought by the Athenians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Athenian) and their Aetolian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Aetolian), Locrian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Locrian), and Phocian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Phocian) allies against the Macedonians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedon) in Thessaly (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thessaly) during the winter of (323 (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/323_BC)–322 BC (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/322_BC)). After some initial successes, the Athenians and her allies besieged the town of Lamia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Lamia_(city)), located on the southern slope of the Othrys Mountains on the Malic Gulf, where Antipater, regent of Macedon and commander of the Macedonian forces in Europe, had taken refuge behind the substantial fortifications of the city. Unsuccessful in their siege, the rebel Athenians were eventually defeated at the Battle of Crannon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Crannon) in Thessaly in 322, bringing the uprising to an end.

DejaVu
14-04-11, 17:04
The ancient Greek language or is it Turkish?

Greek language the continuity?


TURKISH ENGLISH GREEK
det Custom Adeti
Afaroz Excommunicate Aforismos
Aga Land owner Agas
Ahmak Idiot Ahmakis
Ahtapot Octopus Htapodi
Alan Area, ground Alana
Alarga Open sea, distant Alarga
Aman For mercy's sake Aman
Anadolu Anatolia (East in Greek) Anatoli
Ananas Pineapple Ananas
Anason Aniseed Anithos
Anfora Anchor Amphoreus
Angarya Forced labor Angaria
Aptal Stupid Abdalis
Apukurya Carnival Apokria
Arap Negro, bogyman Arapis
Arnavut Albanian Arnautis
Asik Someone in love Asikis
Atlet Athlete Athlitis
Avanak Gullible, stupid Avanakis
Ayran A drink Ariani
Baba - Father - Babas
Baca - Chimney - Batzias
Bacak - Leg, leg of trousers in G.- Batzaki
Bacanak - Brother in law - Batjanakis
Baglama - A string instrument - Baglamas
Bahce - Garden - Bahtses
Bahsis - Tip - Baxisi
Bakir - Copper - Bakiri
Bakkal - Grocer - Bakkalis
Baklava - Baklava - Baklavas
Balta - Ax - Baltas
Bamya - Okra - Bamia
Barbunya - A fish - Barbunia
Barut - Gunpowder - Baruti
Battaniye - Woolen Blanket - Batania
Batakci - Swindler - Bataxis
Bayrak - Flag - Bairaki
Bekar - Batchelor - Bekiaris
Bekri - Drunk - Bekris
Bela - Trouble - Belas
Benzin - Petrol, gas - Benzina
Bereket - Abundance, plenty - Bereket
Beton - Concrete - Beton
Bey - Mr. - Beis
Bezelye - Pea - Bizeli
Biber - Pepper - Piperi
Biftek - Steak - Bifteki
Bodrum - Cellar, dungeon - Boudroumi
Bomba - Bomb - Bomba
Bostan - Vegetable field, garden - Bostani
Bora - Storm - Bora
Boya - Paint - Bogia
Borek - Pastry, pie - Boureki
Bre - Hi, you - Vre
Budala - Idiot - Boudalas
Bulgur - Boiled wheat - Bligouri
But - Thigh - Bouti
Buz - Ice, very cold - Bouzi
Buzuki - Bouzouki - Bouzouki
Cacik - A drink with cucumbers- Tzatziki
Caka - Swagger, vanity - Tsaka
Cam - Window pane - Tzami
Cami - Mosque - Tzami
Cambaz - Acrobat, dealer in G.- Tzambazis
Cenabet - Crabbed person - Tzanabetis
Cep - Pocket - Tsepi
Cereme - Fine or cost of damage- Tzeremes
Cezve - Coffee Pot - Tzesves
Ciger - Liver, lungs - Tziyeri
Cimbiz - Tweezers - Tsimpida
Cuce - Dwarf - Tsutzes
Cadir - Tent - Tsiantiri
Cakirkeyif - Slightly drunk - Tsakir-kefi
Cali - Thorny plant - Tsiali
Calim - Flexibility, show off - Tsalimi
Cam - Pine tree - Tsami
Canak - Shallow bowl - Tsanaki
Canta - Handbag - Tsanta
Capacul - Untidy - Tsapatulis
Capari - Weight anchor - Tsapari
Capkin - Seducer, coquettish - Tsahpinis
Capraz - Crossed - Tsaprazi
Cardak - Hut of dried branches - Tsardaki
Carsi - Market - Charsi
Carik - Rustic shoe - Tsarouhi
Catal - Fork - Tsatala
Catra Patra - Stumbling speech - Tsatra patra
Cavus- Sergeant - Tsausis
Cay - Tea - Tsai
Celebi - Pleasant man, mentor - Tselebis
Cember - Circle - Tsemperi
Cengel - Hook - Tsingeli
Ciklet - Chewing gum - Tsikla
Ciftetelli- A dance - siftetelli
Ciftlik - Large country estate - Tsifliki
Cifit - Tight in money - Tsifoutis
Cimento - Cement - Tsimento
Cinko - Zinc - Tsingos
Ciftlik - Big farm, property - Tsifliki
Cirak - Apprentice - Tsiraki
Cipura- A fish - Tsipura
Ciroz - A fish - Tsiros
Coban - Shepherd - Tsobanis
Corap - Woolen sock- Tsurapis
Corba - soup - Tsorbas
Corek - Large bun - Tsoureki
Cotra - File fish - Tsotra

Ancient GREEK or is it Turkish? Go fool somebody else who dont know your fake identity.

DejaVu
14-04-11, 17:07
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populat...ece_and_Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey)
The 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey was based upon religious identity, and involved the Greek Orthodox (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_Orthodox_Church) citizens of Turkey and the Muslim (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Muslim) citizens of Greece. It was a major compulsory population exchange (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Population_transfer), or agreed mutual expulsion.
The "Convention Concerning the Exchange of Greek and Turkish Populations" was signed at Lausanne (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Lausanne), Switzerland (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Switzerland), on the 30th January 1923, by the governments of Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece) and Turkey (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Turkey). It involved approximately 2 million people, most of whom were forcibly made refugees and de jure (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/De_jure) denaturalized from their homelands.

The criteria for the population exchange was not excusively confined to ethnicity or mother language, but on religion as well. That is why the Karamanlides (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Karamanlides) (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Καραμανλήδες; Turkish (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Turkish_language): Karamanlılar), or simply Karamanlis, who were a Turkish (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Turkish_language)-speaking (while they employed the Greek alphabet to write it) Greek Orthodox (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_Orthodox_Church) people of unclear origin and were deported from their native regions of Karaman (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Karaman) and Cappadocia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Cappadocia) in Central Anatolia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Central_Anatolia) to Greece as well. On the other hand, Cretan Muslims (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Cretan_Turks) who were part of the exchange were re-settled mostly on the Aegean coast of Turkey, in areas formerly inhabited by Christian Greeks. Populations of Greek descent can still be found in the Pontos (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pontos), remnants of the former Greek population that converted to Islam in order to escape the persecution and later deportation. Though these two groups are of ethnic Greek descent, they speak Turkish as a mother language and are very cautious to identify themselves as Greeks, due to the hostility of the Turkish state and neighbours towards anything Greek.

1914 document showing the official figures from the 1914 population census of the Ottoman Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ottoman_Empire). The total population (sum of all the millets (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Millet_(Ottoman_Empire))) was given at 20,975,345, and the Greek population was given at 1,792,206.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Proportions_des_populations_en_Asie_Mineure_statis tique_officielle_d1914.png/499px-Proportions_des_populations_en_Asie_Mineure_statis tique_officielle_d1914.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Proportions_des_populations_en_Asie_Mineure_statis tique_officielle_d1914.png)


Greek Refugee Settlement
Source: “Crossing the Aegean: The Consequences of the 1923 Greek-Turkish Population Exchange” by Renee Hirschon, 2003, page 181.
http://makedonika.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/181-6.png?w=409&h=543 (http://makedonika.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/181-6.png)

“A Concise History of Greece” by Richard Clogg, 1992, page 105
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Refugee_settlement_concentration_ma.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece))
Macedonia (Greece) - Population2,625,681 (2006 Estimate)
Regional identity
Macedonians (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Μακεδόνες, Makedónes) is the term by which ethnic Greeks (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greeks) originating from the region are known. Macedonians came to be of particular importance during the Balkan Wars (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Balkan_Wars) when they were a minority population inside the Ottoman province of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ottoman_Greece). The Macedonians now have a strong regional identity, manifested both in Greece and by emigrant groups in the Greek diaspora (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_diaspora). This sense of identity has been highlighted in the context of the Macedonian naming dispute (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonian_naming_dispute) after the break-up of Yugoslavia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Breakup_of_Yugoslavia), in which Greece objects to its northern neighbour calling itself the "Republic of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia)", since explicit self-identification as Macedonian is a matter of national pride for many Greeks. A characteristic expression of this attitude could be seen when Greek newspapers headlined a declaration by Prime Minister (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/List_of_Prime_Ministers_of_Greece) Kostas Karamanlis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Kostas_Karamanlis) at a meeting of the Council of Europe (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Council_of_Europe) in Strasbourg (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Strasbourg) in January 2007, saying that "I myself am a Macedonian, and another two and a half million Greeks are Macedonians."
The exact size of the linguistic and ethnic minority groups of Macedonia is officially unknown, as Greece has not conducted a census on the question of mother tongue since 1951.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(region (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(region))
Macedonian Greeks (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonians_(Greek)) are ethnic Greeks who self-identify regionally as "Macedonians" (Greek: Μακεδόνες, Makedónes). They form the majority of the region's population (~51%). They number approximately 2,500,000 and live almost entirely in Greek Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece)). The Greek Macedonian population is mixed, with indigenous and a large influx of Greek refugees descending from Asia Minor (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Asia_Minor), Pontic Greeks (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pontians), and East Thracian Greeks (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Eastern_Thrace) in the early 20th century. This is due to the population exchange between Greece and Turkey (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey), during which over 1.2 million Christian refugees from Turkey were settled in Greece, 638,000 of whom were settled in Macedonia. Smaller Greek minorities exist in Bulgaria and the Republic of Macedonia, although their numbers are difficult to ascertain. In official census results, only 86 persons declared themselves Greeks in Bulgarian Macedonia (Blagoevgrad Province) in 2001, out of a total of 3,408 in all Bulgaria; while 442 described themselves as Greeks in the 2002 census in the Republic of Macedonia.

DejaVu
14-04-11, 17:10
Division of Macedonia

The events of the two wars and the final partition are the best indications of the limits to which nationalist and chauvinist passions can corrupt humanity. For example, in pursuing the Bulgarian army during the second conflict, Greek forces systematically burnt to the ground all Macedonian villages they encountered, mass-murdering their entire populations. Likewise, when the Greek army entered Kukuš (Kilkis) and occupied surrounding villages, about 400 old people and children were imprisoned and killed. Several dozen distinguished Macedonians were victims of the persecution in Kukuš, previously marked for death as potential hazards for Greek occupation. Specially trained Greek units destroyed over 40 Macedonian villages.
About 4,000 refugees from Kukuš had gathered in the village of Akandzheli when on July 6, 1913, a Greek military unit entered the village. Though met with white flags, the village was burnt down and in the massacre which followed 356 refugees were killed, including children and the elderly. In Serez, Greek police imprisoned about 200 Macedonians and subsequently executed them. About 1,000 men were slain in the town of Nigrita alone. On the whole, in the region of southern Macedonia, the Greeks destroyed 16,000 houses and 100,000 Macedonians were forced to leave their homes and flee to neighboring countries.

http://makedonija.name/images/history/twentieth_century/division_fullmap.gif
"Map of ethnical-geographical Macedonia, a territory that
was never Greek, Bulgarian, nor Serbian before 1913"
Bulgarian armies and Vrhovist bands were not any more scrupulous in respecting human life. In the small town of Dokast, inhabited by Greeks and Turks, the Bulgarians fired 270 out of 570 homes and killed a hundred people. When they occupied the town of Serez for the second time, they torched 4,000 houses out of 6,000 and massacred many of the inhabitants, mainly Turks and Greeks, on the pretext of revenging the slain Macedonian population of the town.
Nor did the Serbian "liberators" lag behind in destruction and wanton slaughter throughout Macedonia. In Bitola (http://makedonija.name/cities/bitola), Skopje (http://makedonija.name/cities/skopje), Štip (http://makedonija.name/cities/stip) and Gevgelija (http://makedonija.name/cities/gevgelija), the Serbian army, police and chetniks (guerrillas) committed their own atrocities.
Nor were these events to be the last tragic consequences of the Balkan Wars: an enormous number of refugees from Macedonia were compelled by threats and force to leave their homes and flee. About 112,000 refugees sought shelter in Bulgaria, 50,000 of whom were Macedonians. Greece received 157,000 refugees, mostly Turks and Greeks, who settled on the properties of Macedonian refugees. About 1,000 refugees settled on Macedonian territory occupied by Serbia. About half a million people became refugees, driven across newly-created borders-driven from one part of Macedonia to another by the rampaging armies.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(region)
Borders of Macedonia according to different authors (1843–1927)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Borders_of_Macedonia_according_authors_%281843-1927%29.png/800px-Borders_of_Macedonia_according_authors_%281843-1927%29.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Borders_of_Macedonia_according_authors_%281843-1927%29.png)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Z8Ay6gxUZ3o/S9_P2pbWP7I/AAAAAAAAFFY/IfXlIxzebKk/s1600/gladstonegoodra4.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Ewart_Gladstone
William Ewart Gladstone FRS FSS (29 December 1809 – 19 May 1898) was a British (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/United_Kingdom) Liberal (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Liberal_Party_(UK)) statesman (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Statesman). In a career lasting over sixty years, he served as Prime Minister (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Prime_Minister_of_the_United_Kingdom) four times (1868–1874, 1880–1885, February–July 1886 and 1892–1894), more than any other person. Gladstone was 84 years old - still physically vigorous albeit with failing hearing and eyesight - when he resigned for the last time, making him Britain's oldest Prime Minister. He also served as Chancellor of the Exchequer (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Chancellor_of_the_Exchequer) four times (1853–1855, 1859–1866, 1873–1874, and 1880–1882).


http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/William_Ewart_Gladstone

The hopelessness of the Turkish Government should make me witness with delight its being swept out of the countries which it tortures. Next to the Ottoman Government nothing can be more deplorable and blameworthy than jealousies between Greek and Slav and plans by the States already existing for appropriating other territory. Why not Macedonia for the Macedonians as well as Bulgaria for the Bulgarians and Serbia for the Serbians?

Letter quoted in The Times (London), Mr. Gladstone and The Balkan Confederation (1897 (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/1897)-02-06 (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/February_6)).


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Z8Ay6gxUZ3o/S9_EK8h09TI/AAAAAAAAFEY/0Kv5jzUyyFc/s1600/delchevgoodoz4.jpg

DejaVu
14-04-11, 17:11
Macedonian Lexicon - 16th Century

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/un-lexique-macedonien-du-xvi-siecle-p00.png (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/un-lexique-macedonien-du-xvi-siecle-p00.png)
Record of the Macedonian language
The texts presented for analysis in this article were produced by the Institut Detudes Slave, De L’universite De Paris in 1958, and are a study based on words and phrases from Macedonia in the 16th century. It is one of the earliest manuscripts written in a purely Macedonian vernacular tongue, and its content was collected from the village of Bogatsko, which is found in the region of Kostur in the south-west of Macedonia. The author remains anonymous and the only likely conclusion that can be drawn is that he may have spoken the Macedonian language natively or acquired it as an additional tongue due to living in close proximity to people who spoke it. The texts were written using the Greek alphabet, which was not uncommon in the Balkans during the Ottoman period, as similar examples with the Albanian and Vlach languages have demonstrated. Furthermore, the ‘Bulgarian’ label that was at times attached to the Macedonian language is employed in the texts, remnant terminology that had remained in use largely due to Macedonia’s former location within the Bulgarian Empire. Despite this, however, there can be no doubt that the dialect (and indeed location) of Bogatsko belongs to Macedonia, and not Bulgaria.
Macedonia during the Middle Ages
By the end of the 14th century, Macedonia had already been under Ottoman rule for a few decades, losing its status as a vassal state under the leadership of King Marko in 1395. As the greater region was finally deprived of any sense of liberty after the death of George Kastriot - Skenderbeg in 1444, forms of local state structure in Macedonia ceased to exist. This left the responsibility of retaining the culture, language and identity of the people with the religious institutions that were active in Macedonia at that time. The traditional influence of the Patriarchate at Constantinople that was prevalent during the Roman period had resurfaced again in the Ottoman Empire, as the latter looked to use the former to consolidate a single Roman Millet of Orthodox Christians within their domains. However, institutions such as the Archbishopric of Ohrid and even more significantly the hundreds of churches in Macedonia, played a pivotal role in ensuring the local culture, language and identity of the people would survive throughout the centuries of hardships.
Despite the absence of written works relating to statehood, material of a religious and educational character continued to flourish, and Church Slavonic, an essentially Macedonian tongue that was initially developed for such purposes in the 9th century, remained the literary language of the Macedonian people. However, the vernacular tongue of the Macedonians had co-existed with Church Slavonic and matured over the years, demonstrating a remarkable resilience and stability, which earned its introduced as the language of church services in Macedonia. The Macedonians were faced with foreign interference in both their lands and institutions, but their language had been largely solidified, evidenced in the fact that spoken Macedonian from the 16th century has a far greater affinity to spoken Macedonian dialects of today than it does to Church Slavonic. For well over half of a millenium, the Macedonian language has basically remained the same.
Vocabulary and Linguistic Characteristics
The texts reveal distinctive local features that have tenaciously survived the ages, and are still present in a number of today’s spoken Macedonian dialects. This fact reveals the remarkable consistency of the Macedonian language despite the lack of state support or schooling until the 20th century. Below is a sample of words from the texts, along with linguistic characteristics peculiar to the language of the Macedonians.
Animal/Food/Anatomy Terms - Mrave (Ants); Curvec (Worm), Sokol (Falcon), Vrapci (Birds), Golobi (Pigeons), Kokoshki (Chickens), Petel (Rooster), Ofci (Sheep), Kozi (Goats), Jagne (Lamb), Mechika (Bear), Elen (Deer), Lisica (Fox), Kon (Horse), Krusha (Pear), Meso (Meat), Sireni (Cheese), Jajca (Eggs), Vino (Wine), Sol (Salt), Zhito (Grain), Koska (Bone), Gas (Buttocks), Kuro (Penis), Made (Testicles).
Unique and Loan Words - The word Galuhci (Mice) is used, which can also be said as Gluhci or Glufci, and Macedonians are the only people who use this word. The word Veligden (Easter) is used, pronounced with the ‘g’ in Macedonian only. Turkish loans are very rare, one example being Jorgano (Blanket).
Dialectal and Jat Features - The Kostur region contains dialects that have retain several archaic characteristics, such as the word Ranka (Hand) rather than the more common Macedonian variant of Raka. An interesting trend is found in the use of multiple transitions of the Jat feature that is present in various Macedonian and Slavonic dialects. For example, the text employs the word Dedo (Grandfather) and not Djado, yet Hljap (Bread) and not Lep or Leb.
Definite Articles - The typical Macedonian postfixed definite article is exhibited in words such as Krushata (The Pear) and Dushata (The Soul). It is also noted in the word Patot (The Path) for ‘the path’ , although as the case of Jorgano (The Blanket) demonstrates, the ‘t’ at the end can also be dropped, as in several of today’s Macedonian dialects.
Words and Phrases, Unchanged for Centuries.
Containing a rich glossary and in excess of 300 words and phrases, the texts demonstrate the strength of the Macedonian language through preservation. Following is a comparison of sentences between the texts and the Macedonian dialect of Bitola as spoken today.
16th cent., Kostur dialect
21st cent., Bitola dialect
Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostavi ni da spime, ela da jame, i da pieme, dol da pojdime, da rabotime.
Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostai ne da spiame, ela da jaime, i da piame, dolu da pojdime, da rabotime.
Imate hljap-o da kupime, imate vino da kupime, ot koja strana da pojdime vo Bogasko.
Imate lep da kupime, imate vino da kupime, od koja strana da pojdime vo Bogatsko.
As can be clearly noticed, most of the vocabulary and grammar is identical.
All of the elements that would later be required to rejuvinate the Macedonian people as they were shaking off centuries of subjugation, were present during this period. The language of the people had solidified, a tradition of heraldry and symbolism had developed which incorporated the emblem of a rapant lion and historical figures from Macedonia’s past, and the churches continued preserve the local customs and serve as cultural centres for the population. The significance of all these elements together cannot be overstated, the language of medieval Macedonia is the same as the language of the Macedonians today. Unfortunately, only a small portion of the larger amount of Macedonian literature from the Middle Ages has survived, much of it being looted and destroyed by Greek-speaking officials, clerics and teachers. Nevertheless, Macedonian as a language reached its current form centuries before the creation of the Balkan states in the 19th and 20th centuries.





What was like the ancient Macedonian language?

There are only a certain number of preserved words, and from the current knowledge the structure of the ancient Macedonian can not be fully synthesised. Most of the ancient Macedonian words are different to the ancient Greek language words, however there are a few that are similar. For the words from the ancient Macedonian language that are similar to the ancient Greek language words are believed to be taken on from Greek.19) In fact, this occurrence was and still is characteristic for all languages in the world. In the Macedonian language today terms are adopted from foreign languages mainly where there is no authentic terminology or analogy. For instance: antena (antenna); satelit (satellite); mobilen telefon (mobile/cellular phone); kompjuter (computer) etc. These foreign words are being adapted in accordance with the modern Macedonian phonetic system. This needs to be taken into account when analysing the ancient Macedonian language. The authenticity and the nature of a language can not be possibly determined only by the words that language adopted from another language.

One needs to bear in mind that almost all the preserved ancient Macedonian words reached modern age through their Greek transcript which makes it more difficult to identify their true meaning. It is important that the phenomenon "Interpretato Graeca" is mentioned here, that is greekifying of all the foreign words: nouns, verbs, and especially names. A specific characteristic of this process is adding the suffix "os" or "s" to the foreign words, and this will be discussed later in this paper.

Despite all this, it is very interesting to note that many of the authentic ancient Macedonian words, according to their etymology and pronunciation, have a striking resemblance to the appropriate words used in the modern Macedonian language (and other so called "Slav" languages).
For instance, the word "tshelniku" which translated in English means foremost is a very interesting case. The British historian Hammond mentioned its etymology and said that the word "tshelniku" in the ancient Macedonian language had a meaning of "leader of a group". Hammond says that this word was translated into Greek only in the 14th century as "phylarchos".20)
The word "tshelnik" with completely identical etymology and pronunciation has been registered in the so called "old Slavic language" in Macedonia as early as 11th century! Proof of this is the entry of Byzantine chronicle writer Kekavmen where he described the events surrounding the anti-Byzantine uprising of Petar Deljan in 11th century. He said that in the language of the rebels "the strategist is called tshelnik"!21) It is known that Kekavmen was fluent in the "language of the Slavs" in Macedonia therefore he could translate the Greek word "strategist" as "tshelnik" (the strategist was a high military rank in Byzantine). It is even more interesting that the word "tshelnik" with identical etymology and pronunciation is being used in todays' Macedonian language and in other "Slav" languages, as well! This can not be a coincidence, especially considering the fact that there could be hundreds of thousands etymological meanings that a single word can represent, and in this instance there is an identical etymological meaning for a word that has also an identical pronunciation.

The remark that the middle age Macedonians simply borrowed this word from the language of ancient Macedonians and used it in 11th century is not valid. Assuming that it is so, becomes impossible to explain the fact that this word is present in the contemporary Croatian literary language. Have they inherited this word from the ancient Macedonians as well? It is the same with the contemporary Serbian and Bulgarian literary languages where this word is also present with the same pronunciation and etymology.
It is highly likely that through analysis of the word "tshelniku" some other characteristics of the ancient Macedonian language could be identified, considering the fact that in the contemporary Macedonian language this word is deducted from the noun "tshelo" - forehead.
As mentioned previously, the non-Greek words were recorded by the ancient Greeks on as-heard basis without analysing the form of the word. Due to the fact the word "tshelniku" had been recorded inclusive of the vowel "u" at the end, it is anticipated that "tshelniku" was recorded by the ancient Greeks in its vocative form. The vocative form of the noun "tshelnik" in the contemporary Macedonian language is precisely "tshelniku". Is it maybe that the Greeks used to hear the word "tshelniku" every time a Macedonian addressed the leader, therefore recorded this word without realising that they were recording its vocative form?

Another word that is also very interesting in this regard is the word "phoinikos", which is related to the warfare22). Indubitable this word is very much alike the contemporary Macedonian word "voinik" meaning "soldier". There could be a little doubt that these words have a common origin. Why is this so? In the ancient Greek language the consonant "v" did not exist23). The conclusion is imminent that the true pronunciation of the word "phoinikos" would be "voinikos" ("ph" replaced with "v"). In addition to this, as established earlier in this text, ancient Greeks added the suffix "os" to a lot of non-Greek words they recorded. If the word "phoinikos" had been subjected to the "Interpretato Graeca" phenomenon i.e. if the suffix "os" had been added to this non-Greek word, by taking out the Greek suffix we arrive at the contemporary Macedonian word "voinik" (soldier). Not only the pronunciation, but also the etymology of the word "voinik" is very similar to that of the word "phoinikos" and is located in the domain of warfare.

An abundance of water is described with the word "vodi" in contemporary Macedonian language. The corresponding ancient Macedonian word for this is the word "vedy". The Greek archaeologist Aliki Stuyanaki in the periodical "Edesaika Hronika" (Edessa, may-august, 1972) advised that the Macedonian city of Voden, to which the Greeks gave the name "Edessa", was originally a Brygian city and its old name was Vedy which means abundance of water24). Furthermore, St. Clement of Alexandria wrote that ancient Macedonians had a great respect towards the water (springs, wells, rivers) and they worshiped the Macedonian divinity they called Vedy25). In this instance as well, the similarity between pronunciation of a contemporary Macedonian and an ancient Macedonian word is undeniable, and again their etymology is identical.

The contemporary Macedonian verb "pesh" (walk) in ancient Macedonian would have been pronounced "pez"26).

"Pella"27) is another ancient Macedonian word. The etymology of this word is "a stone". The corresponding word in contemporary Macedonian language is "spila", which is similar in pronunciation with the ancient Macedonian word "pella".

The ancient Macedonian word recorded through its Greek interpretation as "skoidos" bears the meaning of judges. In contemporary Macedonian this meaning is conveyed using the word "sudii"28).


There are number of ancient Macedonian words with undetermined etymology which in their pronunciation undeniably resemble contemporary Macedonian words, as well as words from other so called "Slavic languages".


A very good example is the word "arotos" which ancient Macedonians used as an epithet to the god Heracles29). Its etymology is undetermined to-date, however if the suffix "s" is deleted this word is practically identical with the adjective "aroto" - "the old one" (archaism to a degree) from the present Macedonian language. According to a legend Heracles was considered to be the oldest ascendant of the Macedonians. Can the answer for the etymology of the word "arotos" be located in this legend, by referring to Heracles as "the old one" or "aroto(s)"?


It is inevitable that the Macedonian Phalanx is mentioned in this discussion. The strongest weapon of the phalanx was the long spear called "sarissa". It is very interesting to analyse the etymology of the word "sarissa". The first and obvious question is whether the first letter of this word, the letter "s", is authentic or perhaps there should be the letter "z" instead? It is well known that the name of the Brygian (ancient Macedonian) goddess was recorded as both "Semela" and "Zemela". If this is applied to the word "sarissa" i.e. the letter "s" is replaced with the letter "z" it will transform into the word "zarissa". An exciting assumption emerges regarding the etymology of this word. The reflexive verb in its dialectical form "zari se" in the contemporary Macedonian is identical in pronunciation with the word "zarisa" (thrust itself in, pierce itself into). This is of course an assumption, which nevertheless has a solid base in the information presented in relation to the pronunciation and etymology of the words discussed previously.

By analysing ancient Macedonian words that have a determined etymology, it is possible to make some assumptions and even draw some conclusions regarding certain grammatical forms of the ancient Macedonian language. This forms are identical with the forms of the contemporary Macedonian language.

It is worth to mention that there were words in the ancient Macedonian language that (at least without performing a deeper analysis) appear to have a little in common with the contemporary Macedonian language. However, the presence of these words does not deny the existence of words from the contemporary Macedonian language in the ancient Macedonian language. In fact, for some of these words it is more than obvious that they had existed in the ancient Macedonian vocabulary.
We should also turn attention to a portion of the ancient Macedonian onomastics. At the same time it is necessary to keep in mind two things. First, there is no doubt that the ancient Macedonians (mainly those from the highest circles) accepted part of the Hellenic onomastics. But in fact a large number of Macedonian names were different than those in the Hellenic onomasticon, while a considerable number of these are reminiscent of the later Macedonian onomasticon, or are derived from words of Macedonian or from so called "Slavic" (Venetic) origin.

A second thing that needs to be kept in mind is the fact that ancient Macedonian personal names up to our own time mainly achieved written form through their Greek (and in a smaller number Latin as well) transcription. We can surmise that a considerable number of these names were given the added Greek suffixes "os" and "s", and more rarely "us". There are a lot of proofs for this, but here for lack of space we shall only mention that, in our research we have noted over 350 personal names written by ancient Greek authors, which names belonged to various non-Greek peoples. The overwhelming number of these Persian, Thracian, Illyrian, Egyptian, Scythian, Brygian, Libyan, Indian, and other personal names (but also toponyms and other words) were artificially Hellenized by the old Greek authors, adding the Greek suffix "os", and where appropriate "s". Sometimes the old Greek authors went to such lengths that the foreign name was totally changed in the process. Thus, for example, the Egyptian Pharaoh Khu-fu in Greek sources became written as CheopS (with the attached Greek suffix "s"). Later the Indian King Chandragupta was written by Greeks as SandroticOS, and so forth. Sometimes the only change to the name would be the Greek ending "os" or "s". Thus, for example, the name of the Egyptian King Psamtic was written by Greeks as PsametihOS. The Macedonian name Ata, as well, became written as both Ata and AtaS (Hellenized by addition of the suffix "s"), etc.

We've said that we have identified hundreds of such examples of artificially Hellenized non-Greek names (but also other non-Greek words) by old Greek writers, which for lack of space here, will not be mentioned. According to such practices of that time it happened that peoples from quite disparate cultures, ethnic origins (and even races) such as the Persians, Egyptians, Illyrians, Arabians, Libyans, Thracians, Ethiopians, Scythians, Indians, Macedonians, and others, all had identical (Greek) endings on their names. This is so unlikely as to be unbelievable. Therefore, in the following discussion particular attention will be paid to the roots of personal names, given the extensive artificial use of the Greek suffixes "os" and "s" (as well as "us").

DejaVu
14-04-11, 17:12
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/geary.png (http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/geary.png)
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/geary172.png (http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/geary172.png)
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/geary173.png (http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/geary173.png)
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/geary173a.png (http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/geary173a.png)
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/geary174.png (http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/geary174.png)

DejaVu
14-04-11, 17:15
OCCUPIED TERRITORIES

Map showing the original territory of the Kingdom of Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Greece) as laid down in the Treaty of 1832 (in dark blue).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/Greekhistory.GIF/800px-Greekhistory.GIF (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Greekhistory.GIF)
The consequences of the Greek revolution were somewhat ambiguous in the immediate aftermath. An independent Greek state had been established, but with Britain, Russia and France claiming a major role in Greek politics, an imported Bavarian dynast as ruler, and a mercenary army.[123] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence#cite_note-Jelavich229-34-122) The country had been ravaged by ten years of fighting, was full of displaced refugees and empty Turkish estates, necessitating a series of land reforms over several decades.[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence#cite_note-Sowards-29)
The population of the new state numbered 800,000, representing less than one-third of the 2.5 million Greek inhabitants of the Ottoman Empire. During a great part of the next century, the Greek state was to seek the liberation of the "unredeemed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irredentism)" Greeks of the Ottoman Empire, in accordance with the Megali Idea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megali_Idea), i.e. the goal of uniting all Greeks in one country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megali_Idea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megali_Idea)
Megali Idea (modern Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Greek): ΜεγάληΙδέα, "Great Idea") was an irredentist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irredentist) concept of Greek nationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_nationalism) that expressed the goal of establishing a Greek state that would encompass all ethnic Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks), since large Greek populations after the Greek independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence) in 1832 still lived under the Ottoman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) rule.
The term appeared for the first time during the debates of Prime Minister (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Ministers_of_Greece)Ioannis Kolettis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kolettis) with King Otto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece) that preceded the promulgation of the 1844 constitution.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megali_Idea#cite_note-BA0-0) This was a visionary nationalist aspiration that was to dominate foreign relations and, to a significant extent, to determine the domestic politics of the Greek state for much of the first century of its independent existence. If the expression was new in 1844, the concept had roots in the Greek popular psyche, nurtured as it was by the prophecies and oracles that had kept alive, hopes of eventual liberation from Turkish rule.
Megali Idea implied the goal of reviving the Byzantine Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire) by establishing a Greek state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece), which would be, as ancient geographer Strabo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo) wrote, a Greek world encompassing mostly the former Byzantine lands from the Ionian Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionian_Sea) to Mikra Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikra_Asia) (Asia Minor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Minor)) and Euxenus Pontus (Black Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea)) to the east, and from Thrace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrace), Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(region)) and Epirus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_(region)), north, to Crete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete) and Cyprus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus) to the south. This new state will have its capital in Constantinople (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople).
The Megali Idea dominated the foreign policy and the domestic politics of Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece), from the War of Independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence) in the 1820s through the Balkan wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_wars) in the beginning of the twentieth century. It started to disappear after the defeat of Greece in the Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(1919-1922)) and the Great Fire of Smyrna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Fire_of_Smyrna) in 1922, followed by the exchange of population between Greece and Turkey in 1923 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey).


The Greek History. Continuity of fakness.

And here is the Fake Greek enlightenment. The Fake Greeks.


And the Greeks?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...lbanian_origin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_of_Albanian_origin)
Greeks (of Arvanite origin)
Andreas Miaoulis
Markos Botsaris
Laskarina Bouboulina
Nikolaos Krieziotis
Xadziyiannis Mexis
Pavlos Kountouriotis - First Greek President
Kitsos Tzavelas
Georgios Kountouriotis - Prime Minister of Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/List_of_Prime_Ministers_of_Greece) under King Otto (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Otto_of_Greece).
Antonios Kriezis
Dimitrios Voulgaris - He was thus one of the greatest exponents of the Modern Greek Enlightenment (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Modern_Greek_Enlightenment).
Athanasios Miaoulis
Diomidis Kiriakos
Theodoros Pangalos
Petros Voulgaris
Alexandros Diomidis
Nikos Engonopoulos
Ieronymos II - Archbishop of Athens (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/List_of_Archbishops_of_Athens) and All Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece) (GERMAN)
Otto Frederick, prince of Bavaria or Othon, king of Greece (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Ὄθων, ΒασιλεὺςτῆςἙλλάδος, Óthon, Vasiléfs tis Elládos; 1 June 1815 – 26 July 1867) was made the first modern King (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/List_of_Greek_monarchs) of Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Kingdom_of_Greece) in 1832 under the Convention of London (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/London_Conference_of_1832), whereby Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece) became a new independent kingdom under the protection of the Great Powers (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Great_Powers) (the United Kingdom (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/United_Kingdom_of_Great_Britain_and_Ireland), France (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/July_Monarchy) and the Russian Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Russian_Empire)).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kolettis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kolettis) (VLACH)
Ioannis Kolettis (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): ΙωάννηςΚωλέττης) (1773[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] - 1847) was a Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks) politician of Vlach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians) origin who played a significant role in Greek affairs from the Greek War of Independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence) through the early years of the Greek Kingdom, including as Minister to France and serving twice as Prime Minister.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias) (Venetian)
Count (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count) Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): ΚόμηςΙωάννηςΑντώνιοςΚαποδ ίστριας – Komis Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias, in Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language): Giovanni Capo d'Istria, Conte Capo d'Istria, and in Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language): графИоаннКаподистрия – Graf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graf) Ioann Kapodistriya) (February 11, 1776 – October 9, 1831) was a Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) diplomat of the Russian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Empire) and later first head of state of independent Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Hellenic_Republic).
Ioannis Kapodistrias was born in Corfu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corfu),(Κέρκυρα/Kerkyra in Greek), one of the Ionian Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionian_Islands), which at the time of his birth were a possession of Venice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Venice) . He studied medicine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicine), philosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy) and the law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law) at Padua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padua), in Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy). When he was 21 years old, in 1797, he started his medical practice as a doctor in his native island of Corfu. He was throughout his life a deeply liberal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism) thinker and a true democrat, though born and raised as a nobleman. An ancestor of Kapodistrias' had been created a conte (count) by Charles Emmanuel II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Emmanuel_II), Duke of Savoy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Savoy), and the title was later (1679) inscribed in the Libro d'Oro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libro_d%27Oro) of the Corfu nobility; the title originates from Capodistria, a city on the eastern shore of the Gulf of Venice, now Koper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koper) in Slovenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovenia) and the place of origin of Kapodistrias' family before they moved to Corfu in the 13th century where they changed their dogma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma) from Catholic to Orthodox and they soon became hellenized. His family's name in Koper was Vitori or Vittori. His mother's family, the Gonemi, had been listed in the Libro d'Oro since 1606. In 1802 Ioannis Kapodistrias founded an important scientific and social progress organisation in Corfu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corfu), the "National Medical Association", of which he was an energetic member. In 1799, when Corfu was briefly occupied by the forces of Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) and Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey), Kapodistrias was appointed chief medical director of the military hospital.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kavalliotis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kavalliotis) (Aromanian)
Theodore Kavalliotis (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Θεόδωρος Αναστασίου Καβαλλιώτης, Romanian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Romanian_language): Teodor Kavalioti, 1718 – 11 August 1789) was a Greek Orthodox (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_Orthodox_Church) priest, teacher and a figure of the Greek Enlightenment (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_Enlightenment). He is also known for having drafted an Aromanian-Greek-Albanian dictionary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigas_Feraios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigas_Feraios) (Aromanian)
Rigas Feraios or Rigas Velestinlis (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Ρήγας Βελεστινλής-Φεραίος, born Αντώνιος Κυριαζής, Antonios Kyriazis; also known as Κωνσταντίνος Ρήγας, Konstantinos or Constantine Rhigas; Serbian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Serbian_language): Рига од Фере, Riga od Fere; 1757—June 13, 1798) was a Greek writer and revolutionary, an eminent figure of the Greek Enlightenment (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_Enlightenment), remembered as a Greek national hero, the first victim of the uprising against the Ottoman Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) and a forerunner of the Greek War of Independence (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ent_Aromanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prominent_Aromanians)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites)

Just speak Greek and have Greek name then you belong to the ancient Greeks, easy and simple.

DejaVu
14-04-11, 17:25
http://macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/karakasidou-141.png
Taken from “Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood: Passages to Nationhood in Greek Macedonia, 1870-1990″ by Anastasia N. Karakasidou, Published by University of Chicago Press, 1997, page 141.

http://macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/nggreatesttrekp582nov1925-1.jpg
http://macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/nggreatesttrekp590nov1925-1.jpg
Taken from the November issue of National Geographic year 1925. The name of the article is “History’s Greatest Trek: Tragedy Stalks Through the Near East as Greece and Turkey Exchange Two Million of Their People” By Melville Chater.

DejaVu
14-04-11, 17:30
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus_of_Macedon
Perseus (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Περσεύς) (ca. 212 BC (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/212_BC) - 166 BC (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/166_BC)) was the last king (Basileus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Basileus)) of the Antigonid dynasty (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Antigonid_dynasty), who ruled the successor state (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Successor_state) in Macedon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedon) created upon the death of Alexander the Great (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Alexander_the_Great). He also has the distinction of being the last of the line, after losing the Battle of Pydna (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Pydna) on 22 June 168 BC; subsequently Macedon came under Roman (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Rome) rule.

The Antigonid kingdom was dissolved, and replaced with four republics. Andriscus of Macedon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Andriscus_of_Macedon) broke off the Roman rule for about a year, but was defeated in 148 BC by the Romans. In 146 BC, the four republics were dissolved, and Macedon officially became the Roman province of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Roman_province_of_Macedonia).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_p...e_of_Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_province_of_Macedonia)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/Map_Macedonia_province.png
The province of Macedonia within the Roman Empire, ca. 117 AD

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ad/Macedonia_ad400.png/624px-Macedonia_ad400.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Macedonia_ad400.png)
Roman provinces,400 AD

DejaVu
14-04-11, 17:43
AS A CONTESTED space Macedonia in the late nineteenth century suffered political, religious and paramilitary incursions made upon the population by the neighbouring nascent states and the disappearing Ottoman empire. Territorial claims were rationalised by ethnographic maps and statistical population data. Interested commentators viewed Macedonia in accordance with government policy and presented their studies as academic and scientific, even though these studies were clearly political in nature. The European Powers maintained their own pretence and acted as patrons of the small Balkan States. Although churches, schools and paramilitary bands were the primary instruments of the Greek, Bulgarian and Serb states, expansion into Macedonia was ultimately achieved by a full military mobilisation when the armies of Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia marched into Macedonia in October 1912 and drove out the Ottoman Turks. The territorial division of Macedonia and claims upon the Macedonians have continued to be a matter of contention between the Balkan States into contemporary times.

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianGreekConflict/images/map_ottoman.jpghttp://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianGreekConflict/images/map_partition.jpg

Neutral Statistics on the Population of Macedonia:

1. Dr. K. Ostreich. Die Bevolkerung von Makedonien. Leipzig, 1905.
2. K. Gersin. Macedonian und das Turkische Problem. Wien, 1903.
3. Andrew Roussos. The British Foreign Office and Macedonian National Identity 1918 - 1941.

Macedonian Slavs (Did not call themselfs Macedonian slavs only Macedonians)
1. 1,500,000
2. 1,182,036
3. 1,150,000

Serbs
-
-
-

Bulgarians
-
-
-

Greeks (Did not call themselfs Macedonians only Greeks)
1. 200,000
2. 228,702
3. 300,000

Turks and others
1. 550,000
2. 627,915
3. 400,000



Statistics without "Macedonians"
There are three statistical tables that the Greeks and the Bulgarians point to show that the Macedonians do not exist as nation, and that Macedonia belongs to ether one of them.

1) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1904, in areas of Macedonia lived:
Vilaet of Thessalonica - 373.227 (Greeks) - 207.317 (Bulgarians)
Vilaet of Monastir - 261.283 (Greeks) - 178.412 (Bulgarians)
Santzak of Skopje - 13.452 (Greeks) - 172.735 (Bulgarians)

2) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1906, in Macedonia lived:
Muslims - 423.000
Greeks - 259.000
Bulgarians - 178.000
Serbs - 13.150
Others (Jews) - 73.000

Turkish censuses above cannot be taken into consideration because the Turks registered the inhabitants based upon their religious background, not ethnic. In Macedonia at that moment the Macedonian Orthodox Church was forbidden (upon the insistence of the Greeks in 1767), and the Macedonians had choice to enter either Islam or the only Christian Orthodox Churches the Turks legitimized - and those were the Greek, Bulgarian, or Serbian, because Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia were already independent countries. The Islam was not an option for the first Christians of Europe (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/ShortHistory.html), and the Macedonians had no other choice but to have religious services in Bulgarian, Greek, or Serbian Church. As result, as it can be seen above, the Turkish census registered Muslims, Jews, and the Christian Macedonians were divided depending on which church they belonged - mostly Bulgarian and Greek as it shows.

3) Another table is the one published by the League of the Nations. According to the League of the Nations in 1926, in Aegean Macedonia occupied by Greece in 1913 (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/PartitionedMacedonia/KingoftheGreeks.html) lived:
Turks - 2.000
Greeks - 1.341.000
Bulgarisants - 77.000
Others (Jews) - 91.000

Submitted to the League of the Nations by the Greek government and it is clear that it is biased. The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting these statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/GreeceStealingMacedonianHistory.html). Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/GreekPropaganda.html).


Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian Statistics of Macedonia's Population
The new independent Balkan states used their Churches and schools to propagate how the Macedonians do not exist, and how Macedonia was populated only by Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs. Ethnographers, historians, and writers begun writing books in favor of this or that propaganda. Many of them did not even visit Macedonia, while those who did already had a written scenario. Their presence there was only a simple formality.

Nikolaides, 1899 (Greek)
Slav Macedonians - 454.000
Greeks - 656.300
Turks and others - 576.600

Kenchov, 1900 (Bulgarian)
Serbs - 400
Bulgarians - 1.037.000
Greeks - 214.000
Turks and others - 610.365

Gopchevich, 1886 (Serbian)
Serbs - 1.540.000
Greeks - 201.000
Turks and others - 397.020


Forced Change of the Ethnic Structure of Aegean Macedonia
The presence of the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia could not allow Greece to claim that land to be Greek and only Greek. Since it was proven that they resisted the Hellenization, Greece decided to drive them out of Macedonia. Greece made agreements with Bulgaria (signed 10/27/19), and Turkey (1/30/23 in Lausanne), for exchange of population. This provided for the Macedonians of Aegean to leave for Bulgaria, while the Greeks in Bulgaria and Turkey settled in the Aegean part of Macedonia. These measures changed the ethnic character of the Aegean Macedonia. According to the "Great Greek Encyclopedia", there were 1,221,849 newcomers against 80,000 "slavophones". The "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia Showing the Ratio Between Various Ethnic Elements in 1912 and 1926," claims there were 119,000 "bulgarisants" in 1912, and 77,000 in 1926. The Greek ethnic map of Aegean Macedonia was submitted to the League of the nations by the Greek government. The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting this statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians. Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language. There are also other Greek sources that contradict the previous numbers of the Macedonians in Greece. The Athenian newspaper, "Message d' Aten" wrote on February 15, 1913, that the number of "Bulgar-echarhists" was 199,590 contradicting with those 119,000 of the "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia".

How many Macedonians remained in Greece?
When the Bulgarian and Serbian views are added, the confusion gets only bigger. According to the Bulgarian Rumenov, in 1928 there were total of 206,435 "Bulgarians", while the Serb Bora Milojevich claimed 250,000 "Slavs" in Aegean Macedonia. Belgrade's "Politika" in its 6164 issue of June 24, 1925 gave three times greater numbers for the Macedonians in Greece than official Athens:
"The Greek government must not complain that we are pointing to the fact that the Macedonian population of West Macedonia - 250,000 - 300,000 - is the most unfortunate national and linguistic minority in the world, not only because their personal safety in endangered, but also because they have no church nor school in their own language, and they had them during the Turkish rule."
The speculations with the real number of Macedonians is obvious again. Their true number remains disputable in the Balkan documents, same as it was the case before the partition of 1912. Unfortunately, the Greek government would not allow anybody, including neutral observers to conduct statistical studies. Forced to leave, the Macedonians emigrated in large numbers to Australia, Canada, and the USA. As a result, there are about 300,000 Macedonians that presently live in Australia. In the city of Toronto, Canada, there are about 100,000. The present Macedonian colonies in these counties are represented mostly by the descendants of those Aegean Macedonians who settled there in the 1920's.
According to the "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia Showing the Ratio Between Various Ethnic Elements in 1912 and 1926", only 42,000 left their homes. If we take the statistical tables of the Balkan and neutral sources above, by 1913 in the whole of Macedonia lived around 1,250,000 Macedonians. In the Aegean part (51%) which Greece took after 1913, half of the Macedonian nation remained under Greek rule - that would be 625,000 people. If up to 1926 42,000 out of these 625,000 left, in the Greek part of Macedonian thereafter remained 583,000 Macedonians.

DejaVu
14-04-11, 17:46
This posts are enuff to show all who are against ethnic Macedonians, are wrong about their history.

Elias2
14-04-11, 21:14
Copy/paste from macedonian propaganda sites does not help you. Fabrication of historical document and misinterpretation doesn't help either. You don't counter an enlightenment, it happens at the grassroot level, greece had one, Skopia didn't. Macedonians were invented by communists out of bulgarians. Trying to prove you are macedonian by trying disproving greeks does not make you more macedonian. You are a SLAV. All accounts point to you bulgarianess prior to WW2. And by all acouunts, this means data not fabricated by Skopian nationalist like yourself. If you hate yourself so much for being a slav that is your problem not mine. Julia is right, alexander spread helenic culture, not bulgarian you are in denial.

Aconform
15-04-11, 08:44
Copy/paste from macedonian propaganda sites does not help you. Fabrication of historical document and misinterpretation doesn't help either. You don't counter an enlightenment, it happens at the grassroot level, greece had one, Skopia didn't. Macedonians were invented by communists out of bulgarians. Trying to prove you are macedonian by trying disproving greeks does not make you more macedonian. You are a SLAV. All accounts point to you bulgarianess prior to WW2. And by all acouunts, this means data not fabricated by Skopian nationalist like yourself. If you hate yourself so much for being a slav that is your problem not mine. Julia is right, alexander spread helenic culture, not bulgarian you are in denial.

I’m not a fan of what Macedonia is doing. But he does make a strong argument when it comes to modern national identity. And from what I can se the sources he points at are not fabricated.

Modern Greek nationality is just as constructed as any other national identity. The evolution of human civilization that happened in the area is that. A part of human development. The ancient Greeks drew from knowledge from somewhere ells and added to it and then the torch was passed along.

When the Swedish national identity was formed they made them self’s as a people of Troy. The modern Macedonians want to trace their origins to Ancient Macedonia there isn’t much Greeks can do about it.

Elias2
15-04-11, 14:39
I’m not a fan of what Macedonia is doing. But he does make a strong argument when it comes to modern national identity. And from what I can se the sources he points at are not fabricated.

Modern Greek nationality is just as constructed as any other national identity. The evolution of human civilization that happened in the area is that. A part of human development. The ancient Greeks drew from knowledge from somewhere ells and added to it and then the torch was passed along.

When the Swedish national identity was formed they made them self’s as a people of Troy. The modern Macedonians want to trace their origins to Ancient Macedonia there isn’t much Greeks can do about it.

Skopians went through three "modern" national identities in the last 100 years; Bulgarian - serbian- macedonian. History is not a commodity, and no greece is not an artificial construction, greek speaking people have been living in Greece since written history.Genetics have proven vast similarities of modern greeks to ancient ones. Greeks still ive in southern Italy as pointed out by Julias post on Magna Grecia, and Greeks in asia minor were there untill the Turks killed or forced converted them to islam (very civilized). Skopians were only told they are macedonian for expansionist purposes under communism, which is why it is unacceptable. Slavs have always wanted access to the agean, and they still do.

Do swdish people actually think they are decended from Troy? skopians think they were never slavs or are currently not slavs when the differences between them and bulgarians are only political.

As for manipulated sources, just as an example from alot of the lies Dejavu posted, Goce Delchev was not fighting for an independant macedonia nor did he think of himself as macedonian. He was Fighting for the region of macedonia to be annexed by bulgaria during the first balkan war. Skopians just fabricate him to make it look like he was a macedonian revolutionary. This is what they do alot with past characters and data. See again when he says that bulgarians in ottoman censuses were actually macedonians, this is not supported by any evidence or historical discourse, only skopia nationalistic interpretation,

The struggle between the Bulgarians, led by Neofit Bozveli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neofit_Bozveli) and Ilarion Makariopolski (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilarion_Makariopolski), and the Greeks intensified throughout the 1860s. By the end of the decade, Bulgarian bishoprics had expelled most of the Greek clerics, thus the whole of northern Bulgaria, as well as the northern parts of Thrace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrace) and Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_%28region%29) had effectively seceded from the Patriarchate. The Ottoman government restored the Bulgarian Patriarchate under the name of "Bulgarian Exarchate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Exarchate)" by a decree (firman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firman_%28decree%29)) of the Sultan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan) promulgated on February 28, 1870. The original Exarchate extended over present-day northern Bulgaria (Moesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moesia)), Thrace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrace) without the Vilayet of Adrianople, as well as over north-eastern Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_%28region%29). After the Christian population of the bishoprics of Skopje (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skopje) and Ohrid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohrid) voted in 1874 overwhelmingly in favour of joining the Exarchate (Skopje by 91%, Ohrid by 97%), the Bulgarian Exarchate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Exarchate) became in control of the whole of Vardar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vardar_Macedonia) and Pirin Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirin_Macedonia). The Bulgarian Exarchate was partially represented in southern Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_%28Greece%29) and the Vilayet of Adrianople (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrianople) by vicars. Thus, the borders of the Exarchate included all Bulgarian districts in the Ottoman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire).

"Macedonians" voted in favor of joining the bulgaian church? why didn't they just created a macedonian church right then, oh right, macedonians didn't exist.This history of the bulgarian orthodox church is long in FYROM, the modern "macedonian" church is just a break-away from the bulgarian church.

Dejuva even goes so far as to accuse the medeival romans(Byzantines) as falsifying territories to subdue the macedonian idenity, this is a real joke. If you have to go to this length to prove something it is cleary wronge.

FYROM are Slavs. This is a factual statement.

Elias2
15-04-11, 15:21
Hey Dejavu when they open the last tomb at Vergina in the Province of Macedonia do you think they will find greek or slavic artifacts? ;)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13046299

Elias2
15-04-11, 18:04
“Now is the time to settle the name issue, and the new climate of confidence between your country and Greece should be seized,” Jose Manuel Barroso said during a speech on Saturday at a debate on Macedonia's EU future in Skopje."

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/barosso-fuele-urge-macedonia-to-stay-on-reform-path

All there needs to be is the word "northern" in the name, but Skopias inability to face up to its communist past is costing it dearly. 30% unemployment, massive poverty and rapid immigration out of the country, albanian insergency, yet it still claims territory of its neighbours. Diaspora skopians really don't care for this country, they just want to be called macedonian and not bulgarian.

LeBrok
16-04-11, 04:36
That's exciting Elias, I wish they televise the opening of the tomb.

It made me thinking, what kind of culture was burring their great leaders in earth mounds, where did the tradition come from?

Elias2
16-04-11, 05:00
The burial mound is called a "tholos" that it seems the Mycenaeans started to bury their royalty in and caught on. History channel "Engineering an Empire" tells how they were built;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aXiqy6nKXc&feature=related

They start talking about it at 6 min. The Mycenaeans might of got the idea from the egyptians with their pyramids.

off topic-
The Engineering an Empire series which you can watch on youtube is very interesting. History channel made an episode on alot of empires: greece, rome, persia, china, russia, france, england, carthage, Byzantium, alexander, ect.

I enjoyed the russian one very much, it made me think that it really was the "third rome"

iapetoc
16-04-11, 07:02
That's exciting Elias, I wish they televise the opening of the tomb.

It made me thinking, what kind of culture was burring their great leaders in earth mounds, where did the tradition come from?


In Greece from ancient times we have 5 kinds of Burial,

1 is Burning but exting after Christianity, and put ashes to a small house, or delive to family
2 was similar (like Kallash), coffins with soil open to air and no burry, left in Holy Land
simmilar American natives but Body was cover by stones and stones and placed inside a wooden coffin and a quardian to keep away Dogs in Holy land (necropolis)
3rd is Pyramoid tombs not covered with soil,
4rth is small Tholos,
a) small buildings covered by soil, with a door, and mostly belong to family,
gathered in Necropolis like Sindos etc
b) modern way small buildings but personal
5th is Classical Tombs with Big Tholos Belong to rich people or families


the 4rth a) is considered that Developed in Greece and Minor Asia, The mausoleum way
But stoped after Christianity,
the 4rth b) is simmilar every where in Balkans and Thracian Kings are burried also like That

the 5th is like 4rth type but mostly ambitious so only Kings allowed to have them, and many times Hidden the tomb

the Burial of ancients Greeks are not something new,
many customs are Egyptian like 3rd type
many are near Eastern like gold in mouth, or seal with wax the ears.
but there is no Mummification

The change or the added that Greek input was soil cover of the house, so to reuse tomb

now about characteristic are many, Mycenean tombs with 2-3 rooms as also temples have, to visit, the holy room, the crypte, is only in rich tombs,
have unique culture, different from other tombs, and tottaly different than same time Anatolian or Italian,

so ofcourse Greeks Boorowed data in Tomb architecture and ceremonies,
but that doesn't mean that Myceneans were not Greeks,
in fact yes they did, and they also input their own elements,

the Difference about Tombs can be found in Far ancient pre-historic civilizations,
as an example the Neolithic culture of Despilio Δεσπηλιο in Kastoria,
and the 2 neighbor culture of Sesklo and Dimini in Magnesia,
proves that, and in fact Sesklo is far ancient even to kurgan culture,
But we can not speak for Greek Nation that time, or any other nation,

remember that Sesklo is simmilar to Vinca culture but 1500 years older,
so the Kurgan Hypothesis could be wrong, and maycomp could not be 1rst,

in Fact is more possiple the Obsidian Valley to Be than Maycomp

remember that obsidian Valley is near Babel tower, near Summerians etc


simply The Mycenean Tombs Are Developed By Greeks and Considered that are Greek, cause Mycenean culture is unigue, because it combines Pelasgian with geometrical data

iapetoc
16-04-11, 07:16
Dejavu accept it, you are unwanted here, you are paranoids, who claim that Alexander was Slavic, you are paranoids, that you claim that you are more Serbians than Serbians, like claiming Dusan, more Bulgarians than Bulagarians, by claiming Samuel, Cymeon, And Sandasky, and now you are claiming that you are more Greeks than Greeks,

Child Kidnappers are not wanted in Greece,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwTnW2RRYfU


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IsCO9QSZz0&feature=related

You steal children from Greeks and never turn them back,
you are worse than Mafia, criminals, and child Kidnappers,
Tito is dead, and everybody knows who are you,
an artificial nation,

you are the most Fasistic country in Balkans that doesn't permit to speak Greek the kidnaped childs,
you did not Give back the fortunes of Monasterion people (bitola)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haLKz7orQ9A&feature=related


you murdered All Greeks, from Moanasterion, Perlepe, Eygelia etc, and you are telling me bullshit?
at 3:04 is one of the many Greek elementary schools, were are all these people?
at 3:08 time is the Greek highschool of Monasterion (bitola) were is it now?


Where are they now? those people?
WHERE ARE THE GREEKS THAT LIVED IN FYROM?

you murdered them to prove that Slavic are majority?

You ARE UNWANTED IN MAKEDONIA

The communist artificial nation doesn;t exist,
Fyrom back to Albanians, Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbians,


WATCH CAREFULLY THAT DOWN VIDEO AT TIME 4:50
A Greek kid in Greek language shout ' Hurray leader TITO'

in the begining they sing a sing a song for kids,
later they hurray to greek communist party leaders
and at 4:50 they hurray TITO


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j30oc2DCdd8&feature=related

YOU EVEN STEAL PONTIC GREEK CHILDREN, REFUGEES FROM '23
AND LEARN THEM SLAVIC
NOT ONLY GREEK MAKEDONIAN, BUT EVEN PONTIC GREEK CHILDREN

and you are telling for fyrom and occupation,

1rst you murdered all Greeks that lived in Fyrom area,
2nd you steal 100 000 population Greek and convert them
and now you want the rest?

NO WAY NAZI

you are unwelcome here,
stay there with your lies,

1 800 000 Pure Makedonians will resist your Lie for ever,
stay back Fake ones

STOP ARTIFICIAL NATIONS
GIVE FYROM BACK TO ITS BELONGERS,
GIVE FYROM BACK TO ALBANIA BULGARIA SERBIA GREECE

HELP RESTORE THE TRUTH

Fyrom which was one of the favorite ex Communist children of communist expansion occupies land from other countries,

Help Liberate Tettovo Albanians from Fyrom occupation
Help restore Strumnitsa Bulgarians back to their mother land,
Help Liberate the Serbs of Kumanovo and Skopjie

FREEDOM TO the SUPRESSED NATIONS OF FYROMIANS NOW

Set them free


part b dedicated to Dejavu

In your own language and Alphabet the National hymn of Makedonia

Позната Македонија
Отаџбина Александра,
Ви сте отерали варваре,
и сада сте Ви слободни

Famous Makedonia
Alexander's country
that kick back Bulgarians (until '74, Barbarians after '74)
and you are Free now

Is that the language of ancient Makedonians?
is that the alphabet of Ancient Makedonians?

let' see Makedonians in modern Greek History,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaK4ZpEnYto

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oc5lTaa9HY

look at 2nd video, time 0:55, My village contribution to Makedonian Freedom from Bulgarians and Turks,

Look at 1rst video time 7:06, The Greeks of Strumnitsa fighting the Bulgarians and the Turks
Look at 1rst video time 0:01 The Greeks from Monasterion (Bitola)


and as the national Anthem says about Freedom,
the same freedom must have
The Albanians of Tettovo,
The Serbians of Skopjie and Kumanovo
The Bulgarians from Strumnitsa
The Greeks of Monasterion

SET FREE THE PRISONERS OF AN EX-COMMUNIST MAFIA THAT STILL EXIST,
THE FYROMIANS

want More?

1821 Revolution of Greek Makedonians by Karatasos,
Arapitsa River massacre,
at that time you were with Turks,
Like the criminal Sandasky, the Bounty hunter of the Turks against Greeks,

Elias2
16-04-11, 15:17
What I find the most ironic is it was the communists that kidnaped thousands of greek children from the province of Macedonia, bring them over the iron curtain to the communist states, and now they call it a "macedonian" genocide that the greeks commited against them. These people live in another world outside of ours, which is very small, cold and lonely.

iapetoc
20-04-11, 10:49
For what it's worth, I think that the Republic of Macedonia should be called the "Republic of Macedonia." Macedonia is just a region, and although the supposed extent of its borders and the culture contained within its borders have fluctuated over time, that's something to note in textbooks, not to make an international issue about.


tottaly wrong,

Makedonia is not a region as Fyromians say,
Makedonia is a sub nation Tribe of Greeks with its own culture language and History,
Makedonia is connected with Blood with Greek nation,

Fyrom was never Makedonia, not as a nation not as region,

the problem starts from pan-slavism of Peter of Russia and rewarmed by ex-communist party of Yougoslavia,,
it is an artificial nation so to unite Greeks serbs Bulgarians turks, albanians

Thank we are going to take even by force,

STEAL OTHER IDENTITY DOESN'T MAKE YOU BIG,

DejaVu
20-04-11, 11:44
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior.jpg (http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior.jpg)
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior304.jpg (http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior304.jpg)
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior305.jpg (http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior305.jpg)

Who is Nassau William Senior???
http://www.offalyhistory.com/articles/277/1/Nassau-William-Senior-An-Oxford-Professor-visits-Birr---1852-1858-and-1862/Page1.html

Dont play Macedonians when you are not. Macedonians never was Greek and never will be.

iapetoc
20-04-11, 21:56
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior.jpg (http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior.jpg)
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior304.jpg (http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior304.jpg)
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior305.jpg (http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior305.jpg)

Who is Nassau William Senior???
http://www.offalyhistory.com/articles/277/1/Nassau-William-Senior-An-Oxford-Professor-visits-Birr---1852-1858-and-1862/Page1.html

Dont play Macedonians when you are not. Macedonians never was Greek and never will be.


Hahahahaha

I am from Balla, a village in Makedonia, known from ancient times, today known as Elafos
I speak the language of ancient Makedonians

where are you from? Paionia? skopjie of Kumans? what are you? a Cuman? a Turk? a Serb? a Bulgarian? an Albanian? you are not Makedonian anyway
what language you speak Slavic?

don't speak of Makedones, cause we exist 2 800 years

if it was not The Russian and st Stephan you will be either Serbs today either Turks

if it was not the communists and Tito you will be Bulgarians

Help liberate the last occupied lands

FREEDOM TO THE ALBANIANS OF TETTOVO
FREEDOM TO THE SERBS OF SKOPJIE
FREEDOM TO BULGARIANS OF STRUMNITSA

Help restore the Trough and not communist LIE


:cool-v: :cool-v: :cool-v:

Elias2
21-04-11, 16:08
Dejavu just copy/pastes from FYROM propaganda sites, communism is still alive and well in the hearts of Skopians, they must really miss Tito. ;)

Michael Folkesson
24-04-11, 20:15
Do swdish(sic) people actually think they are decended from Troy?

Not quite. At the height of Swedish power and the empire, the late 1600s, devoted nationalists of Sweden were - as nationalists often do - trying to trace and connect our origin and heritage to greatness and antiquity. Serious claims of Sweden being the mythologic Atlantis were made as well. One might take into account that this was around the time where the idea of the national state was manifested, and these - in hindsight - ridiculous claims were part of the attempts to create national unity of one people, one culture with a great common origin, and as nobody had a clue about where we came from, one fantastic claim was as possible as the next. As nation building is a slow stroll full of missteps, nationalism is anything but rational.

Rastko Pocesta
28-04-11, 15:33
Constitution of Macedonia says that country is called Republic of Macedonia. Therefore, that is the only name I recognise as legitimate.

I strongly support euro-atlantic integrations of Macedonia and I respect its wealthy cultural heritage.

iapetoc
28-04-11, 17:13
Constitution of Fyrom say also about a Slavic Makedonia, land divide, ethnic cleansing etc. do you support also those?

Constitution of Fyrom does mantion about about Albanians in Fyrom?
Does mention about Bulgarians in Fyrom?
does mention about Greeks in Fyrom?

constitution of Fyrom wants Lands from Makedonia, do you approve that?
wants land from Bulgaria, do you approve that?

Elias2
29-04-11, 17:03
Macedonia is Moving Backwards, Kurt Volker

In an interview aired this week on Alfa TV, the director of the US-based think tank, the Centre for Transatlantic Relations, blamed Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski for "elevating a sense of nationalism” to distract people from their real problems.
"It is very sad to see how the country has been held back, not investing in the things that are necessary to advance, like political freedoms, democratic institutions, a strong economy, and integration into the EU and NATO," Volker said.
From 1999 to 2001, Volker was deputy director of the private office of NATO's then Secretary General, Lord Robertson. In this capacity he was involved in NATO's efforts to help end the 2001 armed conflict in Macedonia.
"Naturally it [the name dispute with Greece] is a very emotional issue, so you can rally people that way but it is really not serving the people well," Volker said.

"What about the ability to get a job, what about corruption, the courts system, organized crime and infrastructure, all the things that can build a country?" he asked.

Volker said he was concerned about the state of media freedom in the country, which he said had declined over the past few years. He fears that the government's grip on the media may prevent Macedonians from seeing the whole picture during the campaign for the June 5 early elections.

"Gruevski can make his case about the ways he wants to lead Macedonia but people have to be able to listen to the alternatives," he said.

Concerning the "name" dispute with Greece that has prevented Macedonia from entering NATO since 2008, and which is now impeding the country’s progress to the EU as well, Volker said he was not an optimist.

“Unfortunately it [the dispute] has dragged on far too long," Volker said. "It has gotten harder over time to reach a solution rather than easier, because of the way national sentiment has been used as a political device."

Volker said it was a "travesty" that such an issue had prevented Macedonia from moving forward in the first place. However, he said that the slow pace of reforms at home was also a problem.

"A few years ago people had great confidence in Macedonia and it [NATO membership] would not have been a problem without the 'name' dispute. Now you are going to see renewed emphasis on meeting the standards coming from NATO and the EU," he said.

Volker said that although Macedonia could survive without NATO and the EU, it was not in Macedonia’s interest to postpone a solution to the name dispute and be left behind while all of its neighbours make progress.

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/volker-macedonia-moving-backwards

AndronikD
14-05-11, 03:32
http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae39/Cedo2_2010/MapoflateNeolithicandearlyBronzeAgeculturesinEurop efromapproximately5000to4500yearsago.jpg?t=1285194 371

Now where are those damned Slavs?????

sparkey
14-05-11, 06:42
Now where are those damned Slavs?????

Is this a trick question? That map is obviously pre-Slavic.

AndronikD
14-05-11, 11:57
Is this a trick question? That map is obviously pre-Slavic.

Yes son it is pre-slavic and as such it should have been changed nowadays. Except it isn't.
Now where are those 6-th century intruders? That's what I am asking you, since every time you come into trouble with your ludicrous stories you pull out the 6-th century Slavs deus ex machina.
Well prove it. There should be genealogical trait od such an important invasion should it?

Elias2
14-05-11, 14:45
Even if we did prove it would you believe it Andronikd? Or are you another one of Tito's mind slaves?

AndronikD
14-05-11, 16:31
Even if we did prove it would you believe it Andronikd? Or are you another one of Tito's mind slaves?

Try son try. Tell me the story of R1a, the Pelasgians and ancient Hellenes. I would love to hear it. And I am a good listener. (Just don't use Dieneks, the guy is so annoyingly ignorant that I don't want to waste my time on his methodological (that is to say basic) lapses).
By the way, as regards to your Tito objection :thinking: , back in the 70-ties and 80-ties I have spoken with a number of older people in the viilage where I originate from and who were refugees from Greek Macedonia (some of them before the Greek civil war). They didn't knew Tito you see but none of them described or remembered that anyone else described themselves as anything else but Macedonians.
Many of these people (as well as myself) had and have relatives in Greek Macedonia who belong to these new-born Greek Macedonians. I say new-born because back in the early 80-ties the thought of saying Macedonia or macedonian in Greece would risk you an avelanche of hystercal Greeks. But that is nothing new to everybody that has deeper knowledge of Greece I guess. Such man is Peter Green for example, right?
Another point is that proponents of the unification of Macedonia such as Chento, Shatev, Brashnarov e.t.c. were prosecuted and eventualy killed by the Tito administration because of that.
I read your previous posts on this thread and you present yourself as a well educated man which I don't doubt. Well perheps you can tell us what your modern nation fathers thought about Greekness of Macedonia. They teach you that in schools nowadays don't they?

Elias2
14-05-11, 16:57
I read your previous posts on this thread and you present yourself as a well educated man which I don't doubt. Well perheps you can tell us what your modern nation fathers thought about Greekness of Macedonia. They teach you that in schools nowadays don't they?

What point and time are you refering when you say this? 330 B.C.? or the balkan wars?

AndronikD
14-05-11, 17:14
What point and time are you refering when you say this? 330 B.C.? or the balkan wars?

Now come let's be serious won't you. I am realy talking about the fathers of the Greek nation with utmost respect and you place them in the 20-th century????? Even worst you place them before Christ and that is very amusing since christianity is the main criteria of being Greek, now ain't it?

georgi94x
14-05-11, 19:24
FYR Macedonia is Bulgarian land that is inhabited by ethnic Bulgarians and Albanians. Aegean Macedonia is historical and ethnical Greek land. How hard is it...

Elias2
14-05-11, 20:35
Now come let's be serious won't you. I am realy talking about the fathers of the Greek nation with utmost respect and you place them in the 20-th century????? Even worst you place them before Christ and that is very amusing since christianity is the main criteria of being Greek, now ain't it?

There were alot of people who were the "fathers" of modern greece. Are you talking about the greek enlightenment or the greek revolutionary leaders? Being christian certainly helped as even muslims greeks were regarded as turks or turk sympithiers. That's the big difference between greece and FYR of Macedonia. Greece was a grassroots movements of alot of people under the suppression of the ottomans where as FYR of Macedonia was started by one person, Tito.

FYR of Macedonia considers Gotse Delchev and the VMRO as their "fathers" of the nation. The ironic part in all of it is the VMRO's goal was the annexation of Macedonia to Bulgaria during the balkan wars, and if they succeded there would not be any FYR of Macedonia or slavo-macedonians, they would be calling themselves bulgarians. So in a way FYR of Macedonia celebrates Gotse and VMRO failure as an organization.

I personally don't have a problem acknowledging the people in FYR of Macedonia as slavo-macedonians, and I think its great that these people would rather relate to their southern neighbours than their northern and eastern. What I don't like is when people are trying to separate macedon from its hellenic identity and turining it into a slavic one. So a compromise must be reached between the two countries, unfortunatly the ruling political party in FYR of Macedonia takes a hardline approach to the issue which only hurts them.

AndronikD
14-05-11, 22:25
FYR Macedonia is Bulgarian land that is inhabited by ethnic Bulgarians and Albanians. Aegean Macedonia is historical and ethnical Greek land. How hard is it...

Well obviously not hard enough for you to stop repeating yourself till uncosciousness. Wonder where have you been in the 80-ies. You would have been a true gem in Solun!

AndronikD
14-05-11, 23:22
There were alot of people who were the "fathers" of modern greece. Are you talking about the greek enlightenment or the greek revolutionary leaders? Being christian certainly helped as even muslims greeks were regarded as turks or turk sympithiers. That's the big difference between greece and FYR of Macedonia. Greece was a grassroots movements of alot of people under the suppression of the ottomans where as FYR of Macedonia was started by one person, Tito.

Non greater than Riggas and then not only do he considers Macedonia as non-greek country, in fact there aren't any Greeks in his works. It seems your grasssroots were „romanian“ rather than Greek, not to mention hellenic.
READ YOUR CONSTITUTION. Untill recently there was Christian majority and muslim minority in Greece. It sounds familiar to you doesn't it or you are to young to know.
About Tito, utter ignorance, not worth it.


FYR of Macedonia considers Gotse Delchev and the VMRO as their "fathers" of the nation. The ironic part in all of it is the VMRO's goal was the annexation of Macedonia to Bulgaria during the balkan wars, and if they succeded there would not be any FYR of Macedonia or slavo-macedonians, they would be calling themselves bulgarians. So in a way FYR of Macedonia celebrates Gotse and VMRO failure as an organization.

Try to educate yourself before asserting something that you have no idea about. Show me one IMRO document that states what you are saying and I would buy you a case of beer. On the other hand I'll refer you to a bunch of evidence written in demotike where IMRO members identify themselves as macedonians. And you even don't have to buy me a case of beer. :)
And where did you find to call Гоце Делчев bulgarian :)))). He is the biggest thorn that does not give peace to our Bulgarian neighbours. :)))) Not to start about who Bulgarians in fact are as a people (extinct of course).
About the failiures, well they didn't have much support with their republican ideas you know. At least they didn't have no German, Danish or Russian kings to back them up if you know what I mean ;).


I personally don't have a problem acknowledging the people in FYR of Macedonia as slavo-macedonians, and I think its great that these people would rather relate to their southern neighbours than their northern and eastern.

It is not up to you personally, it is not up to Greece and it is not up to anybody but ourselves. As soon as you understand that as better for yourself and Greece.
About the relations, well we didn't have a choice you know. It's not that we are very much enjoying that our blood relatives are fiery Greeks right now but what the hell, let them be. I don't have problems when they come here in Macedonia. I don't go that often to Greece nowadays, not with all this Makedonomania going on there. I remember however that my friend's grandmother didn't even want to look at, not to mention to speak to her brothers because she considered them traitors. But i guess those old people had a hot blood didn't they?
Anyway you should read Karakasidou you know. Maybe she could make you understand that the Greekness of Macedonia is relatively new notion.


What I don't like is when people are trying to separate macedon from its hellenic identity and turining it into a slavic one. So a compromise must be reached between the two countries, unfortunatly the ruling political party in FYR of Macedonia takes a hardline approach to the issue which only hurts them.

"The Colonels, as it happened, promoted Alexander as a great Greek hero, especially to army recruits: the Greeks of the fourth century B.C., to whom Alexander was a half-Macedonian, half-Epirote barbarian conqueror, would have found this metamorphosis as ironic as I did." this from a men that has lived for 17 years in Hellas. Oh yes, they probably didn't tell you but the democratic Greece was ruled in the 70-ies by the Colonels, a military junta known by their cruelty both towards Greeks and Macedonians.

But let's get back to business Tell me where the hell have the Slavs come from and where the hell have they disapeared into?

AndronikD
14-05-11, 23:38
By the way when we are already digressing into stories, fables and wishful thinking I wonder did this guy Karamanlis published his memoirs. Wonder how will he describe his grandmother on maternal side? Wonder what language were they conversing? If at all?

zanipolo
15-05-11, 00:18
I think the issue is - of the germanic, italic, hellenic, celtic, finnic, illyric, nordic, baltic, iberian and gallic the slavs where the LAST to enter Europe

This is what people mean by not original people

AndronikD
15-05-11, 00:32
I think the issue is - of the germanic, italic, hellenic, celtic, finnic, illyric, nordic, baltic, iberian and gallic the slavs where the LAST to enter Europe

This is what people mean by not original people

Well what you are speaking about is what I mean under "romantic thinking".

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26187-Macedonians/page23

the last post. I hate to repeat myself...

AndronikD
15-05-11, 00:35
I think the issue is - of the germanic, italic, hellenic, celtic, finnic, illyric, nordic, baltic, iberian and gallic the slavs where the LAST to enter Europe

This is what people mean by not original people

Aryans also used to be the last in India some time ago. Now they seem to get back in shape a little bit :) . Strange thing this eurocentric thinking. Seems like it lacks time orientation.

Elias2
15-05-11, 06:19
Non greater than Riggas and then not only do he considers Macedonia as non-greek country, in fact there aren't any Greeks in his works. It seems your grasssroots were „romanian“ rather than Greek, not to mention hellenic.
READ YOUR CONSTITUTION. Untill recently there was Christian majority and muslim minority in Greece. It sounds familiar to you doesn't it or you are to young to know.
About Tito, utter ignorance, not worth it.

There were alot of greek scholars and puiblishers responcible for the greek enlightenment. If I were to choose one over the rest I would go with admanatios Korais who actually witnessed the french revolution first hand and saw the same thing happening with the greeks in the ottoman empire. I know what the constitution says, it was becaue there were more than greeks fighting the turks for indepedence at the time, to leave them out would be wrong. I'm talking about the christian arvanites and the vlachs. And please tell me about my utter ignorance about tito, I would like to hear it :)




Try to educate yourself before asserting something that you have no idea about. Show me one IMRO document that states what you are saying and I would buy you a case of beer. On the other hand I'll refer you to a bunch of evidence written in demotike where IMRO members identify themselves as macedonians. And you even don't have to buy me a case of beer. :)
And where did you find to call Гоце Делчев bulgarian :)))). He is the biggest thorn that does not give peace to our Bulgarian neighbours. :)))) Not to start about who Bulgarians in fact are as a people (extinct of course).
About the failiures, well they didn't have much support with their republican ideas you know. At least they didn't have no German, Danish or Russian kings to back them up if you know what I mean ;).

I wouldn't say reading things that the government of Skopia approves of is educating oneself. As I can't read bulgarian, I read secondary sources about the VMRO, all which say their goal was the annexation of macedonia to bulgaria. Actually all evidence from this point in time of the balkan war points to a very bulgarian character and aspirations of the slavophone speaking peoples of the region.




It is not up to you personally, it is not up to Greece and it is not up to anybody but ourselves. As soon as you understand that as better for yourself and Greece.
About the relations, well we didn't have a choice you know. It's not that we are very much enjoying that our blood relatives are fiery Greeks right now but what the hell, let them be. I don't have problems when they come here in Macedonia. I don't go that often to Greece nowadays, not with all this Makedonomania going on there. I remember however that my friend's grandmother didn't even want to look at, not to mention to speak to her brothers because she considered them traitors. But i guess those old people had a hot blood didn't they?
Anyway you should read Karakasidou you know. Maybe she could make you understand that the Greekness of Macedonia is relatively new notion.

This answers my question I asked earlier which time period at you refering to when you asked me about the greekness of macedonia, 330 BC or the balkan wars, you are refering to the latter. I don't think it's a wrong notion to call you a slavo-macedonian. Slavo for your culture, and macedonian beacuse thats what Tito called the socialist republic in Yugoslavia. If I'm wrong on either these accounts please explain why.




"The Colonels, as it happened, promoted Alexander as a great Greek hero, especially to army recruits: the Greeks of the fourth century B.C., to whom Alexander was a half-Macedonian, half-Epirote barbarian conqueror, would have found this metamorphosis as ironic as I did." this from a men that has lived for 17 years in Hellas. Oh yes, they probably didn't tell you but the democratic Greece was ruled in the 70-ies by the Colonels, a military junta known by their cruelty both towards Greeks and Macedonians.

But let's get back to business Tell me where the hell have the Slavs come from and where the hell have they disapeared into?

They don't teach you these things in FYR of Macedonia? I wonder why :thinking:

AndronikD
15-05-11, 12:14
There were alot of greek scholars and puiblishers responcible for the greek enlightenment. If I were to choose one over the rest I would go with admanatios Korais who actually witnessed the french revolution first hand and saw the same thing happening with the greeks in the ottoman empire. I know what the constitution says, it was becaue there were more than greeks fighting the turks for indepedence at the time, to leave them out would be wrong. I'm talking about the christian arvanites and the vlachs. And please tell me about my utter ignorance about tito, I would like to hear it :)

Well son Corais is even better though he speaks less about Macedonia than Riggas. However he is a really great figure and I do sincerely admire him. You should learn about Macedonia from him that's for sure.
I do agree about the constitution, i was just making sure we don't get into a dead-end about the "pureness" of the Greek nation as I have a lots of times in the past.
About Tito:

http://217.16.70.245/?pBroj=1995&stID=61450&pR=7

Since you don't know Macedonian I wil translate some parts of it:
"According to the first and only official „Information for the measures undertook by the authorities towards the citizens of R. of Macedonia which were found suspicious of acting upon formation of independent and united Macedonia“, prepared by MVR in 1993 in the period 1945-1985 there were 105 illegal groups and organizations with over 1200 members. 1 045 of them were arrested, 242 of them were killed." .... "According to unofficial statistics in the period 1949-1951 7 330 highschoolers were imprisoned and there were over 2 500 political prisoners in Macedonia."
So there is no love lost for Tito in Macedonia don't worry. In fact you should be celebrating him, cause if it wasn't for Tito we were going to talk about the rights of the Greek minority in the one and only Macedonia, not about the rights of Macedonians in Greece (which are getting better every year I must say).




wouldn't say reading things that the government of Skopia approves of is educating oneself. As I can't read bulgarian, I read secondary sources about the VMRO, all which say their goal was the annexation of macedonia to bulgaria. Actually all evidence from this point in time of the balkan war points to a very bulgarian character and aspirations of the slavophone speaking peoples of the region.

haha, the first one is good i must say.
If you can't read Macedonian or Bulgarian you should have reserves when you speak about IMRO. First of all none born outside of Macedonia was allowed to be a member of IMRO, second the one that would publicly proclaim that he does not stand for autonomous Macedonia was probably putting himself in mercy of the harsh rules of the organization (death that is to say). IMRO has a long and twisting history but maybe nothing is more proving of its non-Bulgarian character than the struggles between IMRO and the Supreme Macedonian Committee (which was originally Macedonian emigrant organization, later usurped by Bulgars).



This answers my question I asked earlier which time period at you refering to when you asked me about the greekness of macedonia, 330 BC or the balkan wars, you are refering to the latter. I don't think it's a wrong notion to call you a slavo-macedonian. Slavo for your culture, and macedonian beacuse thats what Tito called the socialist republic in Yugoslavia. If I'm wrong on either these accounts please explain why.

I am Macedonian because my forefathers have called like that for as much as they can remember, and I will stay like that because of that :) And yes I am proud of my culture even if I have it to call it Slavic (which is a Byzantine invention anyway :)). About the ancient Greekness (you must mean helleneness :) Greek is not equal to Hellene you know) of Macedonia there are some great holes in that theory you know. And i gave you links and arguments about it in the thread for Macedonians. You can read them.



They don't teach you these things in FYR of Macedonia? I wonder why :thinking:
No need to teach us we know first hand from the survivors of Agios Efstratios. But you see Europeans think of you as a cradle of democracy and yet you had concentration camps in the 70-ies. Strange...

Elias2
15-05-11, 15:39
Well son Corais is even better though he speaks less about Macedonia than Riggas. However he is a really great figure and I do sincerely admire him. You should learn about Macedonia from him that's for sure.

All the people speaking about macedonia was speaking about it in thier contemporary time period, which had a slavic element to it. I think we're talking about two different macedonias. When I talk about macedonia I talk about it with this in mind;

4813

I think when you talk about macedonia you think of this;

4814

I really have no idea when did the second become the accociated baorders of macedonia considering there wasn't a macedon vallet in the ottoman empire, so someone had to come up with it. When I talk of macedonia I talk of the first map.


In fact you should be celebrating him, cause if it wasn't for Tito we were going to talk about the rights of the Greek minority in the one and only Macedonia, not about the rights of Macedonians in Greece (which are getting better every year I must say).

Socialist republic of macedonia was made in august of 1944 within Yugoslavia. Two months later at the paris peace conference of 1944 Yugoslavia make it public that the province of macedonia in greece and the part in Bulgaria should be a part of SROM. I don't think that is a coisidence the two events are so close together. Yugoslavia expansioist aims was very clear form the beginning. So I don't look at tito with any sort of admiration.





haha, the first one is good i must say.
If you can't read Macedonian or Bulgarian you should have reserves when you speak about IMRO. First of all none born outside of Macedonia was allowed to be a member of IMRO, second the one that would publicly proclaim that he does not stand for autonomous Macedonia was probably putting himself in mercy of the harsh rules of the organization (death that is to say). IMRO has a long and twisting history but maybe nothing is more proving of its non-Bulgarian character than the struggles between IMRO and the Supreme Macedonian Committee (which was originally Macedonian emigrant organization, later usurped by Bulgars).

VMRO aims were very clear from the start, the annaxation of macedonia to sofia. The bulgrian aspirations of the people in the region was also very clear. These facts cannot be disputed, so please stop the nationistic rhetoric. If VMRO has succeded you would be calling yoruself Bulgarian not Macdonian.





I am Macedonian because my forefathers have called like that for as much as they can remember, and I will stay like that because of that :) And yes I am proud of my culture even if I have it to call it Slavic (which is a Byzantine invention anyway :)). About the ancient Greekness (you must mean helleneness :) Greek is not equal to Hellene you know) of Macedonia there are some great holes in that theory you know. And i gave you links and arguments about it in the thread for Macedonians. You can read them.

Are you sure your forefathers called themselves that? Don't you think its a little fishy that FYR of Macedonia had a law stating scientific research into its history was forbidden? They needed time to come up with a history they could preach. Don't you think its also weird that all the ethnographic maps at the time of the balkan wars portrayed no "Macedonians" in the region? There were many different people who came into the balkans and made their owns maps which had different fluctuating boarders of where peopels were but the one constant was all of these ethographers did not define a "macedonian" people in the region. I think you are letting yourself get caught up in nationalism and not looking at this objectivly.

iapetoc
15-05-11, 15:51
Well son Corais is even better though he speaks less about Macedonia than Riggas. However he is a really great figure and I do sincerely admire him. You should learn about Macedonia from him that's for sure.
I do agree about the constitution, i was just making sure we don't get into a dead-end about the "pureness" of the Greek nation as I have a lots of times in the past.
About Tito:

http://217.16.70.245/?pBroj=1995&stID=61450&pR=7

Since you don't know Macedonian I wil translate some parts of it:
"According to the first and only official „Information for the measures undertook by the authorities towards the citizens of R. of Macedonia which were found suspicious of acting upon formation of independent and united Macedonia“, prepared by MVR in 1993 in the period 1945-1985 there were 105 illegal groups and organizations with over 1200 members. 1 045 of them were arrested, 242 of them were killed." .... "According to unofficial statistics in the period 1949-1951 7 330 highschoolers were imprisoned and there were over 2 500 political prisoners in Macedonia."
So there is no love lost for Tito in Macedonia don't worry. In fact you should be celebrating him, cause if it wasn't for Tito we were going to talk about the rights of the Greek minority in the one and only Macedonia, not about the rights of Macedonians in Greece (which are getting better every year I must say).





haha, the first one is good i must say.
If you can't read Macedonian or Bulgarian you should have reserves when you speak about IMRO. First of all none born outside of Macedonia was allowed to be a member of IMRO, second the one that would publicly proclaim that he does not stand for autonomous Macedonia was probably putting himself in mercy of the harsh rules of the organization (death that is to say). IMRO has a long and twisting history but maybe nothing is more proving of its non-Bulgarian character than the struggles between IMRO and the Supreme Macedonian Committee (which was originally Macedonian emigrant organization, later usurped by Bulgars).




I am Macedonian because my forefathers have called like that for as much as they can remember, and I will stay like that because of that :) And yes I am proud of my culture even if I have it to call it Slavic (which is a Byzantine invention anyway :)). About the ancient Greekness (you must mean helleneness :) Greek is not equal to Hellene you know) of Macedonia there are some great holes in that theory you know. And i gave you links and arguments about it in the thread for Macedonians. You can read them.



No need to teach us we know first hand from the survivors of Agios Efstratios. But you see Europeans think of you as a cradle of democracy and yet you had concentration camps in the 70-ies. Strange...


Indeed you are right,

YOUR FATHERS WERE CALLED MAC_DONALDIANS
cause Communism and Tito order them so,

the illegal organization you are telling me they were not Makedonians but Bulgarians,
we know the case from 1890, Bulgarians try to learn by force Slavic language to Greeks of Makedonia,

YOUR GRANFATHERS WERE CALLED BARDARIANS,
we know that the grand-father of Kligorov was an elected to Bulgarian Parliament in Sofia from the province of Bardaska

ABOUT YOUR GRAND-GRANDFATHERS??
well someone of themn were Turks, Someone of them were SERBS, someone of them were BULGARIANS, and some of them were ALBANIANS.

You manage to eliminate Greek Makedonian minority of Monasterion, Strumnitsa etc
and Greece Makedonians remained silent for 100 years in order not to break good relation with Serbia and ex-Yugoslavia,
But the last years your political is extra dangerous for stability,
you make the tough guys while you have 105 000 Nato troops in your lands,

In Athens the politician of modern Greece are simply corupt for many years now,

But here in Makedonia we know you well and who you were and are

About your Propaganda,
Greece and Greek Makedonians, admit the exist of 7-8 000 Slavophonoi,
Slavophoni means Slavic Speaking,
NoT Fyromians not Serbs, Not Bulgarians,
even they don't know from which slavic tribe-nation are from,
except some of them in case of Florina that say that were Serbs from Dusan times, the rest are towards Bulgarian,

How many Greeks or Grecophones exist in Fyrom???????
tell me,
you eliminated them all, so plz stop the bullshit of MaC-Donaldia,

the case of Makedonians being slavic and the panslavism of ex Russia to expand to aegean, as also the well known case of Turks to divide Homogenous population by devastating villages and population is known.
remember that Turks send about 300 000 Greeks in Moldavia so the problem being among Moldavian and Greeks and not Moldavian and Turks,
same happened here. in an area that was primary south Serbia Skopje of Dusan, Turks moved population from Bulgaria, so the problem to be 3 Greeks -Serbians Bulgarians,
Albanians at that time were Turk allies, later after WW1 and with help from Italy and Austria they create Unification movements and have finally their independent state.

the MaC-Donaldia issue is modern from 1945 and after,
before it was the Bardaska,

Don't LIE to shelf, it is not correct

BESIDES IF YOUR GRAND FATHERS WERE CALLED MAKEDONIANS THEN SURELY THEY WRE AS MAKEDONIANS IN TURKISH CENSUS,
since from 1855 Turks allow minorities rights, and Freedom of Religion

BUT IN 1890 you were still Serbians or Bulgarians,

So your Grand fathers were either Serbs either Bulgarians,

AndronikD
15-05-11, 17:38
Are you sure your forefathers called themselves that? Don't you think its a little fishy that FYR of Macedonia had a law stating scientific research into its history was forbidden? They needed time to come up with a history they could preach. Don't you think its also weird that all the ethnographic maps at the time of the balkan wars portrayed no "Macedonians" in the region? There were many different people who came into the balkans and made their owns maps which had different fluctuating boarders of where peopels were but the one constant was all of these ethographers did not define a "macedonian" people in the region. I think you are letting yourself get caught up in nationalism and not looking at this objectivly.


No I'm not sure, I I'm not sure what they meant when I heard them say that. :))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) Are you reading at all what you write???????
There was not such law, there was a law under the Tito regime that prohibited inquires that would shake the official doctrine that we were Slavs that came here in the 6-th century. I presume you refer to that law, well it is not in power since the early 90-ies.
However let me blow away your doubts since you don't trust me. This a references to Bulgarian authors since you don't believe to us.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/OrohidrografijaNaMakedonijaStrana6.jpg

That's a Bulgarian author that criss-crossed Macedonia in the end of the 19-th and the beginning of the 20-th century. He states that not only do Macedonians call themselves Macedonians, not only that surrounding nations call them Macedonians but that Greeks in Macedonia don't call themselves Macedonians...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikisource/bg/c/c4/MacedonianQuestion1.jpg

That's the agent of the Bulgarian Exarchate sent in 1871 to spread Bulgarism in Macedonia. I will leave the interpretation to you since I don't believe you will trust my words that there were macedonians in the middle of the 19-th century that were comfortable with the ancient macedonian legacy.

The rest of your posts are repetitions. So they are already answered.

lastly @iapetoc
son take your glasses take your lollypop and observe how have you liberated the "Greek" Macedonia:

http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac131/billbarbarian/karavangelis_turk.jpg

Images tell a thousand words when the words are spoken to the deaf.

By the way since you are from macedonia you should go and ask the current mayor of Solun how did they called macedonians in his youth.

AndronikD
15-05-11, 17:49
Now nobody explained to me why the hell there is R1A on the territory of Macedonia with a very old common ancestor? Very strange...

Elias2
15-05-11, 18:12
Andronik you dodge my question about ethnographers not recording any macedonian identity when they consturcted their maps. And if your only evedince of a macedonian identity is a slavic one, then you know its been manipulated. These ethnographers came from many differnet countries around europe, while yours only came from one source. If you can't see the manipulation of data to suit the slavic expansionist dreams your being selective.

If you want to get on the subject of genetics, then its has been proven the closet genetical group that matches with slavo-macedonians are bulgarians.

You need to face the facts that communism created FYR of Macedonia and stop with the nationalistic rhetoric.

AndronikD
15-05-11, 18:45
Andronik you dodge my question about ethnographers not recording any macedonian identity when they consturcted their maps. And if your only evedince of a macedonian identity is a slavic one, then you know its been manipulated. These ethnographers came from many differnet countries around europe, while yours only came from one source. If you can't see the manipulation of data to suit the slavic expansionist dreams your being selective.

If you want to get on the subject of genetics, then its has been proven the closet genetical group that matches with slavo-macedonians are bulgarians.

You need to face the facts that communism created FYR of Macedonia and stop with the nationalistic rhetoric.

I didn't. I just answered you the question but you cannot read slavic.
1. Bulgaria had interests in 1870 onwards to represent the population of Macedonia as Bulgarian, just like Greece wanted to represent them as Greeks later.
2. Ottoman censuses were identifying people according to their church affiliation and as you Greeks should well know the Ohrid Archbishopric was forbidden in 1767 by Sultan's irade (the same as the Bulgarian Exarchate was established in 1870 and that is to say very uncannonical right?) on suggestion of the ecumenical patriarch of Constantinople so Macedonians of the late XIX century had two evils to choose from, and accordingly they are listed in Ottoman censuses subsenquently in most of the others.

Vasil K'nchov was ethnographer and i gave you a quotation above. It must have slipped him to name us Macedonians since he was a Bulgarian propagandist.

On the subject of genetics Serbs and Bulgarians are equally close to us. The problem is that the "ancestry" of the haplogroup R1a on the Balkans is greater even than the Aryans. Comprende?

Lastly I and vast majority of Macedonians don't have expansionist claims to no one, not to Bulgaria not to Greece. All we want is for us to be left alone and for Macedonians in Bulgaria and Greece to enjoy their guaranteed human and civilian rights in their respective countries.

As for communism, Macedonians had more harm than benefits from it. And I did presented that to you that partially . On the other side you need to forget that story that has been told to you and start looking and start producing arguments instead of stories.

For example something like this, this is when the Greeks have not existed (not as Greeks):

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/The_letter_of_Leopold_I.jpg

iapetoc
15-05-11, 19:21
Now nobody explained to me why the hell there is R1A on the territory of Macedonia with a very old common ancestor? Very strange...

well how about ancient Thracian R1a Y-Dna from Tombs,

seems like an ancient R1a existed before slavic invasions

and surely it is not slavic But Greek R1a the IE branch of Greeks,

as you see son R1a existed in Greece and Bulgaria before the invasion of Slavic people,

AndronikD
15-05-11, 19:43
well how about ancient Thracian R1a Y-Dna from Tombs,

seems like an ancient R1a existed before slavic invasions

and surely it is not slavic But Greek R1a the IE branch of Greeks,

as you see son R1a existed in Greece and Bulgaria before the invasion of Slavic people,



Well where the hell is the Slavic R1a then? It seems to me that you don't understand the problem.

If it is Thracian than it cannot be Hellenic.

Elias2
15-05-11, 19:55
I didn't. I just answered you the question but you cannot read slavic.
1. Bulgaria had interests in 1870 onwards to represent the population of Macedonia as Bulgarian, just like Greece wanted to represent them as Greeks later.

This is true, greeks wanted to unit all orthodox peoples into one coutry with the greek vernacular.


2. Ottoman censuses were identifying people according to their church affiliation and as you Greeks should well know the Ohrid Archbishopric was forbidden in 1767 by Sultan's irade (the same as the Bulgarian Exarchate was established in 1870 and that is to say very uncannonical right?) on suggestion of the ecumenical patriarch of Constantinople so Macedonians of the late XIX century had two evils to choose from, and accordingly they are listed in Ottoman censuses subsenquently in most of the others.

That is why I point to the ethographic maps that wasn't based on religion, where there was no macedonian people represented in any cases. About the Ohrid church which was condemed, why was it a "macedonian" church ? because Ohrid is now in a country with the name "macedonia"?




On the subject of genetics Serbs and Bulgarians are equally close to us. The problem is that the "ancestry" of the haplogroup R1a on the Balkans is greater even than the Aryans. Comprende?

I understand but I don't see what point you're trying to make. Are you saying that you are native to the area? Then I agree. The slavs that migrated south was a minority in the areas they settled.


Lastly I and vast majority of Macedonians don't have expansionist claims to no one, not to Bulgaria not to Greece. All we want is for us to be left alone and for Macedonians in Bulgaria and Greece to enjoy their guaranteed human and civilian rights in their respective countries.

There is nothing stopping people from speaking syrillic in Greece, or laws condeming people if they do. Slavo-macedonians even have their own political party, the rainbow party. If you are looking for rights like making cyrillic a second language I would disagree, I thought that treaty FYR of Macedonia signed with the albanians in your country in 2001 was very wronge, as the albanians won't stop there in their goal for a greater albania/kosovo.


As for communism, Macedonians had more harm than benefits from it. And I did presented that to you that partially . On the other side you need to forget that story that has been told to you and start looking and start producing arguments instead of stories.

For example something like this, this is when the Greeks have not existed (not as Greeks):

I don't understand what your trying to say about arguments vs stories, what story are you refering to? please stop with the riddles. My arguement is pretty clear, Macedonian is a invented nationality by the communists for expansionist goals in the balkans during the cold war. The people of FYR of Macedonia are a south slavic people related closly to bulgarians/serbs as proven by genetics and culture.

What is your argument?

Valmir
15-05-11, 21:02
There is nothing stopping people from speaking syrillic in Greece, or laws condeming people if they do. Slavo-macedonians even have their own political party, the rainbow party. If you are looking for rights like making cyrillic a second language I would disagree, I thought that treaty FYR of Macedonia signed with the albanians in your country in 2001 was very wronge, as the albanians won't stop there in their goal for a greater albania/kosovo.

Why you lie my friend?
greece would never leave macedonians to speak their language in greece like you dont leave Albanians speak Albanian in greece!

Elias2
15-05-11, 21:17
How is greece stoping albanians from speaking albanian? does the government have magical powers? FYR of Macedonia should nulify that agreement they signed with the albanians if they know whats good for them.

Valmir
15-05-11, 21:48
No the goverment doesnt have Magical power, But just go in Youtube and you will find plenty videos on how they stop them,
and Macedonians never wanted to sign an agreement with Albanians, But we didnt asked them and we dont have why to do it!

Elias2
15-05-11, 21:51
Youtube is full of nationalistic crap and is not worth taking seriously.

iapetoc
15-05-11, 22:12
Well where the hell is the Slavic R1a then? It seems to me that you don't understand the problem.

If it is Thracian than it cannot be Hellenic.


not exactly,

many times I try to connect Thracians with I2a2, But i was wrong, and I ahve to admit that,

Macciamo and Julia told me hat ancient Thracian Y-Dna qas R1a,

the R1a of Greek Macedonia also can be found in Magna Grecia, an area that is not Slavic at all,

if you look the maps of How Yes No you will see that enough R1a pre-slavic also exist in Magna Grecia in area of Sarento,

ancient Thracians had R1a surely,

ancient Thracians are consider Pre-Slavic by some, or Daci for others or even Goths to an extra possibility,

Greeks pushed Pieri-Thracians to east while Vrygians moved to minor asia, and the space occupied by Greeks,
the case of Pieri - Vrygians - Paiones is strange as also the Getae and the Triballi and Odryssee,

seems like Thracians were 3 mainly or Sub Nations,
you can read about in a thread,


Now R1a today is cinsidered
1) Germanic
2) Balto-slavic
3) Turkish by some especially in Turkey,

but an ancient R1a existed in Balkans,

a possibility that a R1b passed and moved West is Certain, but mostly today R1b in Greece is Romano-Celtic.

the Case of G2a3 in Greece is know from Pelasgians,
Pelasgians split to many and one of them is Thyrrenians,
Etruscan Y-Dna is found mostly G2a

J1 and J2 is considered Greek (some DYS of them) but J2 language was not IE but Pelasgian-Thyrrenian
so who gave IE language to greeks,

E-V13 came to balkans at 2000 BC estimated by some searchers

a possibility that Myceneans were R1b from minor asia that enter Greece is A) change
the possibility of Myceneans were R1a from steppes or Minor Asia (Hettit) is B) chance

The Driopes being R1a is a most possible chance

the rest are not consider IE by what we know today.

the case of R1a in South Italy - Magna Grecia gives connection among Greeks and R1a,

ancient Greeks had R1a among others,
the case of Agrinio an area that was not invaded that much, almost isolated,
that has enough I2 while Agrinion King Agrios had son the Paeon (Paeonnians- area of Skopje) as also the names of Paeonian Kings and Tribes (Agrianes = sons of Agrios)
also the Vrygian remained words and their connection with Ancient Makedonians,
seems like Thracians were 4 groups, the Greco-Thracians like Vrygians Pieri and Paeoni,
the Daci-Getae Thracians, the Illyro-Thracians, The central Thracians (Odrysse-Triballi-etc)

Linguistic of Homer seems like the IE of Greek is mostly towards English and Slavic
while is far from Latin,
Pelasgian elements are included also, but mostly in later Hesiodus,
so Pelasgians existed in Homers time, But mostly unite with Greeks after Troy and Sea peoples,

Pelasgians is the other part that existed in Balkans, Mostly in Greece, Albania, and South and East Thrace,
Pelasgians dwell lake Lychnitis today Ochrid before the arrive of Makedonians and King Karamos.
the 3rd ancient is Celts, mostly lived west of Dinaric Alps


now about modern case of Makedonia, Fyrom,

Yes you are right,
In 1900 lived more Slavic people in Greek Makedonia, and more Greeks in Fyrom
also in Bulgaria lived more Greeks, and Serbia,
After WW1
Greeks of Serbia either left, either change their names to -ic and became Serbs.
same happened with Serbs of Greek Makedonia.
Greeks of Bulgaria mostly exchanged with Bulgarians from Greece.

since I am from a village that is connected from Ancient times with Argeiad Dynasty. don't tell me about Makedonia, and ansk Butaris. I live here with my Family before 1000 of Years,
Before 1900 there were only Vlachs(Aromani), Greeks, Serbs, and Bugari (watch:Bugari not Bulgarians), Roma and Turks (Turks are considered both Turk-albans and Ottomans Arnaut and Turks)
After that
Greece did not wanted to expand in Skopje cause that area was never Greek, in anciety was Paeonia,
now about minority of Slavic Speaking people in Greece mostly change with Bulgaria,
while Serbs moved to Skopje.

At that time we Have Bardarska,
later after WW2 Greek communist decide to Become Fyromians and MAC-Donaldians,

Butaris major of Thessaloniki is an Aromani-Vlach that wants to be progressive and support Fyrom Issue cause he was an ex-Communist.
besides Butaris support Free Porn under 18 years old, support Gay mariage in Church, and is well known for his Alcoolism,
He is the only major that was in TV Drunken for 5 Minutes saying nothing, just looking, Got Drunken to the limit,
Butaris spend millions to became major, for more than 20 years now.

the case of Fyrom, that Unites Greeks Serbs Albanians and Bulgarians, is just out of Discuss,
A paper treaty is in power only if All accept it,
The Turks manage to create a diplomacy problem in Balkans,
while Mother Russia pushed Pan-slavism,

now about who must have the name of Makedonia,
For Greeks the connection is with Blood, from anciety,
is connection with Linguistic, and Koine-Hellenistic,
is connection with History and memmories of a Nations,

For you is just geographical term that must give to your unification movement a name,
well since some of you Lived in Original Makedonia and not Paeonia or Bardaska after Serbian Dusan, or Bulgarian Cymeon and Samuel invations in Makedonia,
and since Romans name Skopje Makedonia, well
Greek Gave you the opportunity, to live in peace both countries, by accepting the word Slavic infront, or Bardarian (Slavic Makedonia, Bardarian Makedonia)
But no, your Patrons suggest you to claim Alexander, to claim that Alexander spoke Slavic, although archaiology proves opposite, and to claim Lands,
you are the only ones in Planet That say that Modern Greeks of Macedonia are Slavic, Speak Slavic etc, while even Turkish Census prove that Greeks were majority after Turk citizens in Greek Makedonia,
you have your own land, stop Bullshit before Greece start Demanding Lands from Fyrom of Greek Minority, (pappers still exist) and starts to discuss rights of Albanian and Bulgarian minority,

we are Here 000 of years before Dusan or Cymeon
and we don't know for how long we will be,


Now about the photo of Germanos Karavaggelis, I have more to show you, with Fyromians next to Nazi-Germans, or Bulgarians burning Villages in Makedonia,
as also about Sandasky the Famous Bulgarian criminal that killed 75 Greeks under Turkish command,
there are many photos of Sandasky and Bulgarians with Turks also,
we never wanted your lands or your culture,
you invade from Dusan times and today you claim the lands,
well we will not give you them with out a fight, cause we were here before Dusan.
Stop Bullshit
All R1a are not Slavic,
or maybe for You south Italy is also Slavic.
Stop blame Greece for your problems, and start to concern about your people, by building monuments and statues, you simply cover a lie that even majority of Fyrom doesn't believe.

it is another thing the Ancient Makedonia,
another the Roman Makedonia.

I wonder in school what you tell to kids that Alexander was slavic and Dusan was Greek?
!!!!!!



Yes I have to admit that ancient Thracians were R1a although being I2 solve many problems and Questions
But the R1a is Greek colonies proves that IE speaking Greeks were also R1a

iapetoc
15-05-11, 22:15
Why you lie my friend?
greece would never leave macedonians to speak their language in greece like you dont leave Albanians speak Albanian in greece!

yes offcourse 1,5 000 000 Albanians that came from 1990 and after speak every day Albanian and we hear them every were in the streats, nothing happened,
indeed I live next to Paralia, every summer 500 000 Fyromians came, and speak Slavic, what happened to them? who forbid them?

At least Greeks do not kill someone that spoke another language in his store, as Albanian Nationalist did.
thanks God Albanian Goverment act fast and arrest the scums

Now who is telling lies, ask the murderers of Guma,

I repeat in case of misunderstand, Albanian goverment act fast. and arrest the scums, showing that doesn't want such actions,

Valmir
15-05-11, 22:29
yes offcourse 1,5 000 000 Albanians that came from 1990 and after speak every day Albanian and we hear them every were in the streats, nothing happened,
indeed I live next to Paralia, every summer 500 000 Fyromians came, and speak Slavic, what happened to them? who forbid them

So what is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeioPKkd9-Y&feature=related
And This:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY4kJXLbrCs

And i have seen another video, Some greeks abusing 2 Albanians, but unfortunately i cant find that video...

Elias2
15-05-11, 22:47
So what is this:

And This:


And i have seen another video, Some greeks abusing 2 Albanians, but unfortunately i cant find that video...

Again, youtube is full of nationlistic crap and is not worth taking seriously.

AndronikD
15-05-11, 23:04
not exactly,

many times I try to connect Thracians with I2a2, But i was wrong, and I ahve to admit that,

Macciamo and Julia told me hat ancient Thracian Y-Dna qas R1a,

the R1a of Greek Macedonia also can be found in Magna Grecia, an area that is not Slavic at all,

if you look the maps of How Yes No you will see that enough R1a pre-slavic also exist in Magna Grecia in area of Sarento,

ancient Thracians had R1a surely,

ancient Thracians are consider Pre-Slavic by some, or Daci for others or even Goths to an extra possibility,

Greeks pushed Pieri-Thracians to east while Vrygians moved to minor asia, and the space occupied by Greeks,
the case of Pieri - Vrygians - Paiones is strange as also the Getae and the Triballi and Odryssee,

seems like Thracians were 3 mainly or Sub Nations,
you can read about in a thread,


Now R1a today is cinsidered
1) Germanic
2) Balto-slavic
3) Turkish by some especially in Turkey,

but an ancient R1a existed in Balkans,

a possibility that a R1b passed and moved West is Certain, but mostly today R1b in Greece is Romano-Celtic.

the Case of G2a3 in Greece is know from Pelasgians,
Pelasgians split to many and one of them is Thyrrenians,
Etruscan Y-Dna is found mostly G2a

J1 and J2 is considered Greek (some DYS of them) but J2 language was not IE but Pelasgian-Thyrrenian
so who gave IE language to greeks,

E-V13 came to balkans at 2000 BC estimated by some searchers

a possibility that Myceneans were R1b from minor asia that enter Greece is A) change
the possibility of Myceneans were R1a from steppes or Minor Asia (Hettit) is B) chance

The Driopes being R1a is a most possible chance

the rest are not consider IE by what we know today.

the case of R1a in South Italy - Magna Grecia gives connection among Greeks and R1a,

ancient Greeks had R1a among others,
the case of Agrinio an area that was not invaded that much, almost isolated,
that has enough I2 while Agrinion King Agrios had son the Paeon (Paeonnians- area of Skopje) as also the names of Paeonian Kings and Tribes (Agrianes = sons of Agrios)
also the Vrygian remained words and their connection with Ancient Makedonians,
seems like Thracians were 4 groups, the Greco-Thracians like Vrygians Pieri and Paeoni,
the Daci-Getae Thracians, the Illyro-Thracians, The central Thracians (Odrysse-Triballi-etc)

Linguistic of Homer seems like the IE of Greek is mostly towards English and Slavic
while is far from Latin,
Pelasgian elements are included also, but mostly in later Hesiodus,
so Pelasgians existed in Homers time, But mostly unite with Greeks after Troy and Sea peoples,

Pelasgians is the other part that existed in Balkans, Mostly in Greece, Albania, and South and East Thrace,
Pelasgians dwell lake Lychnitis today Ochrid before the arrive of Makedonians and King Karamos.
the 3rd ancient is Celts, mostly lived west of Dinaric Alps


now about modern case of Makedonia, Fyrom,

Yes you are right,
In 1900 lived more Slavic people in Greek Makedonia, and more Greeks in Fyrom
also in Bulgaria lived more Greeks, and Serbia,
After WW1
Greeks of Serbia either left, either change their names to -ic and became Serbs.
same happened with Serbs of Greek Makedonia.
Greeks of Bulgaria mostly exchanged with Bulgarians from Greece.

since I am from a village that is connected from Ancient times with Argeiad Dynasty. don't tell me about Makedonia, and ansk Butaris. I live here with my Family before 1000 of Years,
Before 1900 there were only Vlachs(Aromani), Greeks, Serbs, and Bugari (watch:Bugari not Bulgarians), Roma and Turks (Turks are considered both Turk-albans and Ottomans Arnaut and Turks)
After that
Greece did not wanted to expand in Skopje cause that area was never Greek, in anciety was Paeonia,
now about minority of Slavic Speaking people in Greece mostly change with Bulgaria,
while Serbs moved to Skopje.

At that time we Have Bardarska,
later after WW2 Greek communist decide to Become Fyromians and MAC-Donaldians,

Butaris major of Thessaloniki is an Aromani-Vlach that wants to be progressive and support Fyrom Issue cause he was an ex-Communist.
besides Butaris support Free Porn under 18 years old, support Gay mariage in Church, and is well known for his Alcoolism,
He is the only major that was in TV Drunken for 5 Minutes saying nothing, just looking, Got Drunken to the limit,
Butaris spend millions to became major, for more than 20 years now.

the case of Fyrom, that Unites Greeks Serbs Albanians and Bulgarians, is just out of Discuss,
A paper treaty is in power only if All accept it,
The Turks manage to create a diplomacy problem in Balkans,
while Mother Russia pushed Pan-slavism,

now about who must have the name of Makedonia,
For Greeks the connection is with Blood, from anciety,
is connection with Linguistic, and Koine-Hellenistic,
is connection with History and memmories of a Nations,

For you is just geographical term that must give to your unification movement a name,
well since some of you Lived in Original Makedonia and not Paeonia or Bardaska after Serbian Dusan, or Bulgarian Cymeon and Samuel invations in Makedonia,
and since Romans name Skopje Makedonia, well
Greek Gave you the opportunity, to live in peace both countries, by accepting the word Slavic infront, or Bardarian (Slavic Makedonia, Bardarian Makedonia)
But no, your Patrons suggest you to claim Alexander, to claim that Alexander spoke Slavic, although archaiology proves opposite, and to claim Lands,
you are the only ones in Planet That say that Modern Greeks of Macedonia are Slavic, Speak Slavic etc, while even Turkish Census prove that Greeks were majority after Turk citizens in Greek Makedonia,
you have your own land, stop Bullshit before Greece start Demanding Lands from Fyrom of Greek Minority, (pappers still exist) and starts to discuss rights of Albanian and Bulgarian minority,

we are Here 000 of years before Dusan or Cymeon
and we don't know for how long we will be,


Now about the photo of Germanos Karavaggelis, I have more to show you, with Fyromians next to Nazi-Germans, or Bulgarians burning Villages in Makedonia,
as also about Sandasky the Famous Bulgarian criminal that killed 75 Greeks under Turkish command,
there are many photos of Sandasky and Bulgarians with Turks also,
we never wanted your lands or your culture,
you invade from Dusan times and today you claim the lands,
well we will not give you them with out a fight, cause we were here before Dusan.
Stop Bullshit
All R1a are not Slavic,
or maybe for You south Italy is also Slavic.
Stop blame Greece for your problems, and start to concern about your people, by building monuments and statues, you simply cover a lie that even majority of Fyrom doesn't believe.

it is another thing the Ancient Makedonia,
another the Roman Makedonia.

I wonder in school what you tell to kids that Alexander was slavic and Dusan was Greek?
!!!!!!



Yes I have to admit that ancient Thracians were R1a although being I2 solve many problems and Questions
But the R1a is Greek colonies proves that IE speaking Greeks were also R1a



Problem number 1:

http://www.lebed.com/2008/art5375.htm

http://www.lebed.com/2008/art5386.htm

Today Macedonians have what your describe as ancient R1a.

Problem number 2:

http://korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/serafimov_tra07.pdf

http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/serafimov_ezer07.pdf

Thracian spoke a language that can be described, if we are modest, as protoslavic.

Problem number 3:

Recent slavic researchers place the origin of the Slavic in Balknas, probably R1a people.


Thats the problems that need solving not claiming that the whole world is Greek.

And how many times I have to tell you R1a has never and never will be considered Germanic or certanly not Turkic that is funny.
About Balto-Slavic region see the links above.
By the way the main concetration of R1a in Greece is the regions of macedonia were Slavic was and still is spoken that is West Macedonia.
Now let me tell what you obviously don't want to tell. Ancient Macedonians were also R1a, if they were Dorians as you claim them to be they would have to be R1B. That.
Now please be concise and argumentative. The long tirades about Greek mythology and their modern Greek interpretation are prove of nothing when it comes to genetics.

iapetoc
16-05-11, 01:06
Problem number 1:

http://www.lebed.com/2008/art5375.htm

http://www.lebed.com/2008/art5386.htm

Today Macedonians have what your describe as ancient R1a.

Problem number 2:

http://korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/serafimov_tra07.pdf

http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/serafimov_ezer07.pdf

Thracian spoke a language that can be described, if we are modest, as protoslavic.

Problem number 3:

Recent slavic researchers place the origin of the Slavic in Balknas, probably R1a people.


Thats the problems that need solving not claiming that the whole world is Greek.

And how many times I have to tell you R1a has never and never will be considered Germanic or certanly not Turkic that is funny.
About Balto-Slavic region see the links above.
By the way the main concetration of R1a in Greece is the regions of macedonia were Slavic was and still is spoken that is West Macedonia.
Now let me tell what you obviously don't want to tell. Ancient Macedonians were also R1a, if they were Dorians as you claim them to be they would have to be R1B. That.
Now please be concise and argumentative. The long tirades about Greek mythology and their modern Greek interpretation are prove of nothing when it comes to genetics.


lets see. Sarendo Italy, Magna Grecia

How much R1a?????? >20%
Greek Makedonia how much R1a >20%
how mauch in Bulgaria??? <10% ???
How much in Fyrom ??? <10%
How much in Serbia ???? <10%
How much in Bosna?? ~14%
How much in Turkey ??? in some areas that J1 is strong reaches 24%

lets see J1a7 ???? Pontic Greeks
area of Greek Pontus? how much R1a 24% Bigger than Greek Makedonia.

simply where ever Greeks go a R1a exists most of it it is outside Greece, and in Greek Makedonia.

The rest is just a story for your bullshit,

Turks are claiming R1a Brances as Turkish, in this site also.
Read about Turks and their Y-Dna what they say,

since you want to connect ancient Thracians with Pre-protoslavic then you follow Georgiev-Duridanov Theory,
well according that Theory, Greeks are a union of ancient Thracians with minor Asian Pelasgians.
the case of Georgiev Duridanov is rejected by Rusu a Daci Thracian,
about the case that ancient Thracians were Proto-Slavic seems familiar also to me but Gennetic prove that Thracians also share HBO-Arab?????
what does that mean since you are expert in Genetic.

Better read the thread,

Now since as you claim R1a is only Slavic then Serbia Fyrom Bulgaria, Bosnia are not Slavic, !!!!!
cause they have <% than south Italy and Turkey,

why Dorians should Be R1b?
can you explain me that,
in Fact from Aiginion Thessaly and Area Tricca we have enough G2a3 as also in Central Makedonia and Around Mount Olymp.

Besides the only slavophones that exist in Greece are in area of Florina that from 1900 recon as Serbs, and the Edessa KilLkis which exchanged with Bulgaria,
I gave before numbers about 7-8 000


Besides I advise you to read carefully
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26187-Macedonians/page23

post #62 #64 #87 #98

what happened to all that greeks??????
350 000 Greeks los their properties and you are talking about 7000 slavophones?


Read carefully

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26415-Turkish-Dna-Research-of-Haplogroups-C-E-G-I-J-L-N-Q-R-and-T

ther you find that R1a for Turks is Chinese mogolian origin of Ongurs
Although I don't share that,


and that is the favorite map of How yes no


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg


watch carefully,
Greek Makedonia has Bigger R1a than rest south slavic !!!!!!!
Sarendo Italy Greek colonies that even today speak Grico (Greek) has BIG R1a for Italy,

now if I say If R1a is slavic and Slavic people invade at 6th century then how the hell Greeks of Italy from 8th century BC have R1a
why R1a in Turkey follows the Alexanders steps?
or the oposite
if Pomaks are origin Thracians since they have R1a they are Slavic then how on Hell have have HBO-Arab.

simply you telling bullshit, and you know nothing about Genetic

an Aryan R1a either came from ancient times via minor Asia to Greece (Thracians) and Balkans,
and among them dwell the Iayan people (Pelasgians)
Either a R1a came from steppes at 3000 BC to Greece creating the IE branch of Greek Language, and Thracian culture which according many Thrakologists if you read the above post is relative to Greek (south tribes, Grecothracians, Vrygians, Paeones, Agrianes, etc)

and later after 6th century came another wave !!!! of R1a, the Balto- slavic,

the case of Myceneans or Driopes to be R1a or R1b is another story,
as also the case of Dorians,
watch it is another nation the Driopes and another Dorians,
Myceneans are connected with Lydia and Hettit so they could be R1b
but early myceneans also share same burial culture with Thracians which were R1a.

the = that R1a = Slavic is wrong,
R1a#Slavic,
if Slavic is ancient Thracian language, then Serbs Bosnians Fyrom should speak Celtic and not slavic cause majority is I2a2,

now about ancient Thracians we know from Erzerovo ring, and from Odrysse plates that used Greek Alphabet from 400 BC,

then what the hell Cyrill try to do if Thracians=slavic and gave new alphabet????

simply

Sorin Mihai Olteanu, a Romanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians) linguist and Thracologist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracologist), recently proposed that the Thracian (as well as the Dacian) language was a centum language in its earlier period, and developed satem features over time.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_Thracian#cite_note-14) One of the arguments for this idea is that there are many close cognates between Thracian and Ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek). There are also substratum words in the Romanian language that are cited as evidence of the genetic relationship of the Thracian language to ancient Greek and the Ancient Macedonian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language) (the extinct language or Greek dialect of ancient Macedon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedon)). The Greek language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) itself may be grouped with the Phrygian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language) and Armenian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_language), both of which have been grouped with Thracian in the past.


as you see there Thracologists that connect Thracian language with Greek,

Even in one of your links Connect Greek with Lithuanian and Baltic

the problem you set before are old,
If I2 was Thracian then all problems are solved
also if I2 is Slavic all problems are solved,

the determination R1a = slavic is wrong,
remember that Greek word for NO is Ουκ uk while turkish is yok.
simply no body dares to analyze R1a which is ancient and which is medieval.


about problem number 3 only today Bulgarians have that problem,

They still don't know since Balkars were Ogurs-Huns NON IE, NON Slavic, then how Bulgarian is a Balto-slavic language!!!!!!
so Georgiev is pushing the Idea that Thracians were Slavic, and Slavic language spread from south to North, But that is against Logic how come a small R1a change language to a Huge R1a?
so the case of Slavic being I2a language suits more with Slavic language.

another Theory is that Daci and as Greeks call them Getae are the Today Dutch, Deutch, and Getae are the Goths, meaning that Ancient Thracians were Germanic that were pushed West, or invade West whatever you like, and their lands were occupied by Slavic people,

many question still exist,
But the case of an ancient R1a and a later invade R1a at medieval is stronger

The case of Thracians Being R1a = Slavic then how you explain HBO-ARAB
Slavic people invade from middle east and not from Steppes?

simply your determination R1a = Slavic is wrong

AndronikD
16-05-11, 02:55
Where the hell did you find that information????? Underhill, Bataglia, Kljosov e.t.c nobody lists Republic of Macedonia under 14 % and most of them list Greek Macedonia between 10 -15 %. ????????? So it was smart for you to include Greek Macedonia in the South Slavic world but not that it has more R1a.

The spread of R1a speaks of nothing. The methodology of finding the age of the common ancestor on the basis of the analysis of large number of ancestry information markers on the other hand speaks a lot.. Also there are subclades of R1a e.t.c. Otherwise if we combine the spread and your ability to produce stories The Russians Indians and half of Europe will be Greek.
Duridanov's theory primarily deals with the Dacian and Albanian languages. And it is not refuted because refutation does not depends on somebody liking. Howerver Thracian as proto-Slavic is widely argumented, not only in the limits of that theory.

So you want to tell me that everywhere Greeks went left R1a (for example Ria in South italia that is significantly younger than on the Balkans) except in Greece proper. How strange? By the way what the hell would ancinet Macedonians be doing in Graecia Magna????

About Lerin and Kostur back in the 50-ies the percent of South speakers was >75 %. But i guess Greece is wonderland. People dissapear there easier than european money.

Not to mention that the last time I discussed on forums the Greeks ran away from R1a like devil from cross. i guess now even that is Grecisazed. Well nothing new.

iapetoc
16-05-11, 03:03
Where the hell did you find that information????? Underhill, Bataglia, Kljosov e.t.c nobody lists Republic of Macedonia under 14 % and most of them list Greek Macedonia between 10 -15 %. ????????? So it was smart for you to include Greek Macedonia in the South Slavic world but not that it has more R1a.

The spread of R1a speaks of nothing. The methodology of finding the age of the common ancestor on the basis of the analysis of large number of ancestry information markers. Otherwise if we combine the spread and your ability to produce stories The Russians Indians and half of Europe will be Greek. Also there are subclades of R1a e.t.c.

Duridanov's theory primarily deals with the Dacian and Albanian languages. And it is not refuted because refutation does not depends on somebody liking. Howerver Thracian as proto-Slavic is widely argumented, not only in the limits of that theory.

So you want to tell me that everywhere Greeks went left R1a (for example Ria in South italia that is significantly younger than on the Balkans) except in Greece proper. How strange? By the way what the hell would ancinet Macedonians be doing in Graecia Magna????

About Lerin and Kostur back in the 50-ies the percent of South speakers was >75 %. But i guess Greece is wonderland. People dissapear there easier than european money.


well the same about Monasterion (bitola) and Perlepe the % of speaking Greek was>60% than speaking Slavic, seems like they dissapear before '50 at starts of WW2, I wonder what happened to them...... the population in bitola area only was 30-40 000 Greeks in the city !!!
besides in 2 main Makedonia areas Thessaloniki and Monasterion Greeks are above,
both that areas today belong to Greece and Fyrom,
Monasterion included Bitola =Monasterion
while Thessaloniki area included Ευγελεια Gevgeli and Στρυμονισσα Strumnitsa.

nope not in Kastoria, in kastoria slavic almost Zero, Arnauts were more in Kastoria,
Slavic were mainly in Florina and Edessa and around Kilkis
Now about karakasidou,
!!! she is Pontian communist !!!!! not even Greek makedonian.

since you are a gennetic spesialist go tell Turks that claim that R1a in Turkey is XinYiang Desert origin,

Indeed there subclades of R1a,
these are the Germanic,
The Slavic
The Thracian
The Turkish
The Greek,

Simply Greek Makedonia and many Greek colonies have more R1a than south slavic nations,
that leads to a conclusion that R1a could be different than Slavic. or all south Slavic are Greeks,
choose


BUT STILL YOU DID EXPLAIN ME THE HBO-ARAB GENETIC MARK OF ANCIENT THRACIANS



Ancient Makedonians, all we know is that they start from Thessaly Pelasgian Argos from area Trica from city Aiginion (not Aigina), they move south as Dorians, they return North to Honor Hercules and they occupy land of Vrygians and push Pieri East, who push Bithini etc,makedonian brothers are considered Magnites, while all belong to Dorian family,
simply Makedonians spoke Aeolian dialect Thessaly was not Mycenean but Driopes and Pelasgians, myceneans spread to west to Epirus,
so Makedonians although they origin from thessaly they came from Peloponese,
so the marks you want you found them, Makedonians started to expand at 700 BC the time that colonisation of Italy had started. so R1a existed in peloponese,
now the story of Dorians leads us to Locris before the Makedonian started and before Dorians invade peloponese, Locri have many colonies in South Italy, especially in that area.
Besides Makedonians make their own colonies,
let me give you some,
Αμβρακια in Epirus
Αρσινοη in Cyprus etc
I am not claiming that Russians are Greek etc,
Besides Greek are not the owners and never found the world.
But Greeks is the link among minor Asia to West Europe and North East Europe,
is perhaps the most ancient IE with fully literature from Homer,
so can be connected with all IE languages, while mostly is consider alone, or to proto IE families of Hettit, Armenian
Greek also connected Via Pelasgian and to non IE languages.

iapetoc
16-05-11, 03:50
So what is this:

And This:


And i have seen another video, Some greeks abusing 2 Albanians, but unfortunately i cant find that video...

well I can give you 00 of videos that Albanians f.. Greek girls,
or 000 of Videos that Albanians beat Greeks in Greece, simply your passion is result for Being fanatic Anti-Greek
and many videos that Albanians burn Greek flag in Greece.
simply you a blind fanatic, probably you came to Greece, and they caught you in robbery and you were sent back.
or you were mistreated by some Greek employment. who knows!!!
besides when i was in business I had many Albanians working, but half of them do not worth, and I kept them cause the other half was indeed good workers,

AndronikD
16-05-11, 04:00
[B]BUT STILL YOU DID EXPLAIN ME THE HBO-ARAB GENETIC MARK OF ANCIENT THRACIANS



It's not a genetic mark it's a disorder. Have you even an idea who the pomaks are and how they are described ? :)))))))))))) have you heard about thallasemia. If you are close to sea you must have.


All R1a languages from Sanscrit to Thracian show incerdible similarity. Now how about it instead of your daydreaming?

Antigone
16-05-11, 07:20
And i have seen another video, Some greeks abusing 2 Albanians, but unfortunately i cant find that video...

Are you seriously suggesting that because a couple of Greeks abused some Albanians and uploaded it on Youtube that everyone in Greece does it?

Yes of course there are some racist idiots in Greece, just like there are some idiot racist Albanians. In fact, I'm sure every country has their share of racists. If I searched for videos of Albanians abusing Greeks or anyone else what do you think I'd find?

I must be off now and abuse that really nice Albanian family who live next door.........

iapetoc
20-05-11, 19:04
It's not a genetic mark it's a disorder. Have you even an idea who the pomaks are and how they are described ? :)))))))))))) have you heard about thallasemia. If you are close to sea you must have.


All R1a languages from Sanscrit to Thracian show incerdible similarity. Now how about it instead of your daydreaming?


if you check the similarities of Greek language with all IE, then probably you will say that GREEK language is mother of all IE languages,
But that is not correct,
as also the rest above, yes I know about θαλασσαιμια, thalassaimia, it is known in all mediteraneo people, but mostly in east mediterraneo, then how come thracian and balto-slavic came from steppes????

by what you said above, you just admit that there is an R1a that came from middle east and not from North-east,
you just admit that there is an an ancient and a medieval R1a.

maybe i am daydreaming, but seems like all your equations are wrong, you have believes and not proves.

so I am daydreaming but you follow wrong God.

pan-slavism stopes at Makedonia, all R1a are not slavic,

AndronikD
22-05-11, 13:58
if you check the similarities of Greek language with all IE, then probably you will say that GREEK language is mother of all IE languages,
But that is not correct

Blatant relativisation. I would again stress the word EYCATCHING SIMILARITIES. I am not speaking about traces that will lead you to conclusion that they all stem from one language.



also the rest above, yes I know about θαλασσαιμια, thalassaimia, it is known in all mediteraneo people, but mostly in east mediterraneo, then how come thracian and balto-slavic came from steppes????

by what you said above, you just admit that there is an R1a that came from middle east and not from North-east,


If you know about thalassaimia than you know that it is not in relation to haplogroup instead it is in relation to the region.

Who came from the steppes or from the middle east or from the north-east? That's the answer that you should answer, since genetics shows that nobody came from anywhere lately (that means in the last 10 000 years) in the Balkans (of course except for the 600 000 orthodox Turks that came in White Sea Macedonia).


you just admit that there is an an ancient and a medieval R1a.

Of course I didn't said or admitted something nonsensical like that. There can't be medieval haplogroup since it takes time for the specifics of the common ancestors to become statistically meaningful. For example in the work I referenced a few posts ago Kljosov estimates the age of the Balkan R1a to be 10 000 years while the age of the Nort-East R1a (or the Steppes as you like to call them) to be 4 000 years. And let me repeat you for the 1000-th time there is no "young" R1a on the Balkans, verstand? And R1a is the one and only connection of the Balkans and the North - East (your favourite Steppes).



maybe i am daydreaming, but seems like all your equations are wrong, you have believes and not proves.
so I am daydreaming but you follow wrong God.
pan-slavism stopes at Makedonia, all R1a are not slavic,

I reference you to a works that have been done with methodology explained in the work itself. What you reference me to is your Greek school textbooks that are telling the story of the pureness of the Greek nation and of the coming of the Slavs. That is the difference capish? For example it is strange that the spread of ancient R1A on the Balkans is the same as the spread of the Slavic languages. What a strange coincidence! And of course how inconvenient for the Greeks, since by what you a saying i sense that you are implying that there is a Greek R1a as you were implying that there were Turkish and German. Well now that's a good joke. I will tell it to the first person I meet. I'm sure we will have a good laugh and a bright day.

iapetoc
23-05-11, 22:36
well seems like you don't understand, or you dont want to,

if Pomaks of Rodopi Mountain are the pure Thracians,
(Not all pomaks, cause word means slavophones muslims)
then they have thalassaimia more than 2000 years,
that means they did not came from steppes, that means that is another the ancient Greek-Thracian R1a and another the Baltic north R1a,
thalassaimia is a well know Mark to All greeks as also Anaimia (Μεσογειακη meditterenean)
in fact according to primal Y-DNA we found strange DNA pathesis,
I don't want to expand more,
Just think if Pomaks (Thracians) have so much thalassaimia, why the rest (Serbians Bosnians Croats) dont share the same %

you are turning me back to Georgiev's work,
But you don't want to see other possible,
Turks devastasion was about <200 000
Slavic invasion was bigger
and Balkar is the smallest,
Bardars invasion is not estimated, but surely smaller
Cumans invasion is also enough.

Only the R1b that entered last 2000 years in Balkans is estimated today more than 4 000 000 people (aromani all over Balkans etc)
and you tell me what?
that ancient makedonians were slavic before Slavic invasions?
or that Slavic as today is, was before 6th century,
or slavic speak thracian then Greek then Baltic. !!!!

Ancient thracians used Greek Alphabet, erzerovo ring, odrysse stones etc,
they did not want new alphabet,
newcomers needed new alphabet and a record of language,

understand that, there was a devastasion and an invasion, simply modern theories don't believe that was so tremendus in numbers as was believed before,
think from Asparuch then we find Kaloyiann (!!!) compare names,

SIMPLY YOUR COINCIDENCE IS WRONG,

LOOK AT MAGNA GRECIA SARENTO ITALY? DO THEY SPEAK SLAVIC?
LOOK AT MINOR ASIA GREEK CITIES AREAS HOW MUCH R1a, DO THEY SPEAK SLAVIC?

AND IF DURIDANU AND RUSU IS CORRECT THEN ANCIENT THRACIANS SPOKE A LANGUAGE SIMMILAR DACI AND ALBANIAN

I don't know who Myceneans (read about simmilarities with rest My nations) or Driopes (Druids they lived in Thessaly next to pelasgians probably fathers of Greeks) were R1a But i am sure and most do that Thracians had simmilar Funeral customs with Myceneans, and if is correct that pomaks are Thracians then ancient Thracians carry the Mark of HBO-ARAB, meaning that did not came from steppes, or North at 6th century, since the more the slavic the country the less the HBO-Arab.

there was a R1a that came from middle east.

Besides if for you R1a is only slavic I wonder how and why in North Polland (Duncich I think) they were consider Germans,
why numbers like of Turkey or south Italy did not change language, and small numbers like in Bulgaria manage to change it,
and since R1a is Slavic and only Slavic and medieval incoming to Balkans, Did Slavic invade also Turkey and South Italy???????

Thracians could Be linked with a pre-slavic culture, But is still under search,
Indeed I believe that ancient Thracian could be either Slavic, either Getae (Goth)
either a Daci-Albanian Language,
But linguistic we find that Vrygians and Paeones spoke more Greek than Odrysse.

And for your consideration at area of Syntikes and Odomantikes the word Serb or Fyrom Never existed, they still call Serbs and Skopje Trivalli.

Understand that, maybe R1a in India is also Slavic to you,


ok Then tomorrow I will go to my Friends and told them that people in India are Slavic as you claim,

cause all R1a are Slavic, according to you
I am not sure if the first person I meet will laugh, But Surely they ask me, are you ok? do you feel ok?


you are funny,

seems like to you Armenians are brothers of Irish, cause they also have R1b
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

Simply with your Logic, Spanish R1b people are Hettits, !!!!!!!

:useless: :useless: :useless:

AndronikD
24-05-11, 05:36
well seems like you don't understand, or you dont want to,

if Pomaks of Rodopi Mountain are the pure Thracians,
(Not all pomaks, cause word means slavophones muslims)
then they have thalassaimia more than 2000 years,
that means they did not came from steppes, that means that is another the ancient Greek-Thracian R1a and another the Baltic north R1a,
thalassaimia is a well know Mark to All greeks as also Anaimia (Μεσογειακη meditterenean)
in fact according to primal Y-DNA we found strange DNA pathesis,
I don't want to expand more,
Just think if Pomaks (Thracians) have so much thalassaimia, why the rest (Serbians Bosnians Croats) dont share the same %


Well maybe because thallasemmia is an autosomal DNA trait. Why are you putting thallassemia and Y-DNA in the same sentence? It's very ignorant. Autosomal DNA is so random that it cannot be used for anything aside as a proof of the fact that we all alike as humans, and of course if you want to know your personal lineage of ancestry. Ethiopians and Kenyans know even better about these disorders. Are they Greek? :)
I already explained this and I do not want to repeat myself into eternity since I don't have the will nor stubbornness to say the same thing all over again. Repetition is the mother of knowledge, and then again one is to wonder what re-repetition is a sign of?



you are turning me back to Georgiev's work,
But you don't want to see other possible,
Turks devastasion was about <200 000
Slavic invasion was bigger
and Balkar is the smallest,
Bardars invasion is not estimated, but surely smaller
Cumans invasion is also enough.

Only the R1b that entered last 2000 years in Balkans is estimated today more than 4 000 000 people (aromani all over Balkans etc)
and you tell me what?
that ancient makedonians were slavic before Slavic invasions?
or that Slavic as today is, was before 6th century,
or slavic speak thracian then Greek then Baltic. !!!!

I was reffering to the "good-will" resettlement of the citizens of Greek Macedonia of the 20-ies and 30-ies in the XX century. I wasn't talking about any invasion of the Balkans since there never was one as you imagine. Not to speak about the absence of archeological and anthropological evidence of a disruption as one would expect from these large scale invasions that are happening in Greek wishful thinking, there is a lack of genetical proof of this. And genetics is not aware of it's appropriateness or inapropriateness to Greek history, luckily. And i didn't even mentioned the logical ludicrousness of an idea of an invasion of farmers!
And not to speak about the last paragraph since it lacks any comprehensive line of exposition of an argument. :useless:


Ancient thracians used Greek Alphabet, erzerovo ring, odrysse stones etc,
they did not want new alphabet,
newcomers needed new alphabet and a record of language,
Hellenes used phoenician script. What is it a proof of ???? Mycenians used Minoan script. What is it a proof of????


understand that, there was a devastasion and an invasion, simply modern theories don't believe that was so tremendus in numbers as was believed before,
think from Asparuch then we find Kaloyiann (!!!) compare names,

understand that if you use the words devastation and invasion you need to prove that instead on relying on belief. Bulgarian conquest was what it is - a conquest by a small number of well organized warriors. if it was invasion the genetic makeup of Bulgaria would have been different. (by the way R1a is present in Bulgaria in larger extant than in sicily, I don't where do you find the information you are using????)


SIMPLY YOUR COINCIDENCE IS WRONG,

LOOK AT MAGNA GRECIA SARENTO ITALY? DO THEY SPEAK SLAVIC?
LOOK AT MINOR ASIA GREEK CITIES AREAS HOW MUCH R1a, DO THEY SPEAK SLAVIC?

AND IF DURIDANU AND RUSU IS CORRECT THEN ANCIENT THRACIANS SPOKE A LANGUAGE SIMMILAR DACI AND ALBANIAN

Yes, so many coincidences. For the rest see my comments about repetition above. You said nothing that would refute my claims except repeating your ignorant initial statements.



I don't know who Myceneans (read about simmilarities with rest My nations) or Driopes (Druids they lived in Thessaly next to pelasgians probably fathers of Greeks) were R1a But i am sure and most do that Thracians had simmilar Funeral customs with Myceneans, and if is correct that pomaks are Thracians then ancient Thracians carry the Mark of HBO-ARAB, meaning that did not came from steppes, or North at 6th century, since the more the slavic the country the less the HBO-Arab.

there was a R1a that came from middle east.


About HBO- Arab see the comments about thalasemia above. Nobody knowledgeable would use it as a proof of ancestry, that is why Y-DNA testing is used since it is relatively constant. About R1a people the problem is their distance from J2 people (In fact it's a Greek problem). About invasions I'm too tired to say the same thing for a 1001 -st time. Read my previous post and offer some argument. Or even better read Elias2's posts since he understands better than you the problem with the invasions from Mars.


Besides if for you R1a is only slavic I wonder how and why in North Polland (Duncich I think) they were consider Germans,
why numbers like of Turkey or south Italy did not change language, and small numbers like in Bulgaria manage to change it,
and since R1a is Slavic and only Slavic and medieval incoming to Balkans, Did Slavic invade also Turkey and South Italy???????

Thracians could Be linked with a pre-slavic culture, But is still under search,
Indeed I believe that ancient Thracian could be either Slavic, either Getae (Goth)
either a Daci-Albanian Language,
But linguistic we find that Vrygians and Paeones spoke more Greek than Odrysse.

And for your consideration at area of Syntikes and Odomantikes the word Serb or Fyrom Never existed, they still call Serbs and Skopje Trivalli.

Understand that, maybe R1a in India is also Slavic to you,


R1A is not Slavic as it is not German or Turkish or property of any modern nation or state where it was found. That is the fallacy of your thinking that I have pointed to many times. R1a simply tells
1. that people that belong to the haplogroup have a common ancestor that can be placed more recently on the timescale than the common ancestor (if any) of different haplogroups.
2. probably that initialy R1a people (beacuse of their genetic realtedness) shared common habitat and culture.
So i don't know who is Slavic, Indian or whatever you want to call them but taking into account the two points above when we compare the most of R1a languages we find eycatching similarities .
Your problem is that you take your notion of history and try to bend the genetics to fit it. Try the other way around.




ok Then tomorrow I will go to my Friends and told them that people in India are Slavic as you claim,

cause all R1a are Slavic, according to you
I am not sure if the first person I meet will laugh, But Surely they ask me, are you ok? do you feel ok?


you are funny,

seems like to you Armenians are brothers of Irish, cause they also have R1b
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

Simply with your Logic, Spanish R1b people are Hettits, !!!!!!!

:useless: :useless: :useless:

Every haplogroup means relatedness. That's the essence of the notion of the haplogroup. I don't know what is so strange to you, genetics does not deal with the romaticised vision of the history of Europe, it deals with something else that is strange to you I guess.

:baffled:

Now when we are at laughing, here have a laugh

http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik08/indo_aryan.pdf

iapetoc
24-05-11, 10:58
Well maybe because thallasemmia is an autosomal DNA trait. Why are you putting thallassemia and Y-DNA in the same sentence? It's very ignorant. Autosomal DNA is so random that it cannot be used for anything aside as a proof of the fact that we all alike as humans, and of course if you want to know your personal lineage of ancestry. Ethiopians and Kenyans know even better about these disorders. Are they Greek? :)
I already explained this and I do not want to repeat myself into eternity since I don't have the will nor stubbornness to say the same thing all over again. Repetition is the mother of knowledge, and then again one is to wonder what re-repetition is a sign of?




I was reffering to the "good-will" resettlement of the citizens of Greek Macedonia of the 20-ies and 30-ies in the XX century. I wasn't talking about any invasion of the Balkans since there never was one as you imagine. Not to speak about the absence of archeological and anthropological evidence of a disruption as one would expect from these large scale invasions that are happening in Greek wishful thinking, there is a lack of genetical proof of this. And genetics is not aware of it's appropriateness or inapropriateness to Greek history, luckily. And i didn't even mentioned the logical ludicrousness of an idea of an invasion of farmers!
And not to speak about the last paragraph since it lacks any comprehensive line of exposition of an argument. :useless:


Hellenes used phoenician script. What is it a proof of ???? Mycenians used Minoan script. What is it a proof of????



understand that if you use the words devastation and invasion you need to prove that instead on relying on belief. Bulgarian conquest was what it is - a conquest by a small number of well organized warriors. if it was invasion the genetic makeup of Bulgaria would have been different. (by the way R1a is present in Bulgaria in larger extant than in sicily, I don't where do you find the information you are using????)


Yes, so many coincidences. For the rest see my comments about repetition above. You said nothing that would refute my claims except repeating your ignorant initial statements.




About HBO- Arab see the comments about thalasemia above. Nobody knowledgeable would use it as a proof of ancestry, that is why Y-DNA testing is used since it is relatively constant. About R1a people the problem is their distance from J2 people (In fact it's a Greek problem). About invasions I'm too tired to say the same thing for a 1001 -st time. Read my previous post and offer some argument. Or even better read Elias2's posts since he understands better than you the problem with the invasions from Mars.



R1A is not Slavic as it is not German or Turkish or property of any modern nation or state where it was found. That is the fallacy of your thinking that I have pointed to many times. R1a simply tells
1. that people that belong to the haplogroup have a common ancestor that can be placed more recently on the timescale than the common ancestor (if any) of different haplogroups.
2. probably that initialy R1a people (beacuse of their genetic realtedness) shared common habitat and culture.
So i don't know who is Slavic, Indian or whatever you want to call them but taking into account the two points above when we compare the most of R1a languages we find eycatching similarities .
Your problem is that you take your notion of history and try to bend the genetics to fit it. Try the other way around.



Every haplogroup means relatedness. That's the essence of the notion of the haplogroup. I don't know what is so strange to you, genetics does not deal with the romaticised vision of the history of Europe, it deals with something else that is strange to you I guess.

:baffled:

Now when we are at laughing, here have a laugh

http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik08/indo_aryan.pdf



Well by what I know Autosomal DNA is major what counts about a nation,
a nation is mostly declared by its Autosomal and not by Y-DNA or mtDNA,

so autosmal DNA of Pomaks(Thracians) proves another nation than Slavic,

yes R1a could mean that they have a common ancestor, But that doesn't mean that they are all slavic, that is what you don't undestand,
the autosomal of Pomaks, is another autosomal that links them with East mediterrenean and Not with Baltic or North East Stepes,

all the discussion is to understand that Thracians is an Ancient Nation that is connected with Armenians and Greeks and minor Asia and Not with Northern R1a,
the case of Thracian to be Slavic is for laugh,
the case of Thracians to be a Pre-slavic culture can have a point,
the autosomal of Pomaks does not fit with the autosomal of south Slavic people, but mostly with Meditterenean, that means that they were here from far ancientry,
All the discuss is about your equation R1a=Slavic,
well that is for Laugh,
The autosomal defines a nation and not the Y-DNA,

Now about Ethiopeans,
IT IS KNOWN FROM HOMER THAT EXIST IN BALKANS FROM AROUND 2000 BC,
read Dienekes about E-V13,
it is Kushetic and came from Cyprus to Balkans the Bronze times,
so if you are a genetist then you can realize that they brought their genetic Anomalies to Balkans,


now about 20th century settlements, and 6th century, and 12th century, and ottomans times settlements,
I answer you clear, and straight,
Turkish census proves that Greeks in monasterion and Thessaloniki where majority, and minority in Skopje,

Yes Slavic people were more at 1900 at Greek Makedonia,
But Also Greeks existed in Fyrom and Bulgaria,
So changes of population happened,
Yes in Florina area (Lerin) Slavic people were more than they are today, But in Monasterion Greeks were majority,
Monasterion was a Greek speaking Area,
so it is obvious that people change country and left their homes according the culture they wanted to live,
But maybe for some of Fyrom, Greeks struggle the Slavic of Greek Makedonia,
Then how about Fyrom Struggle against the 150 000 Greeks of Fyrom?

Simply Fyrom is asking Lands and claims that Slavic minority people lived in 1900 at Greek Makedonia, and that is TRUE, But Forgets the Greek minority of Bardaska at 1900.
and if you know the case and numbers then you know truth,


Well No, according to last archaiological founds, and the new theories that are in search progress, Greeks used the Pelasgian Alphabet,
Pelasgian Alphabet is according protosinaitic,
Minoans used Linear A and myceneans linear B, that is why Myceneans were connected with R1b of Hettit, But the connection of Cadmus and the last written form of ceramic in an a north Island seems like Pelasgian used Alphabet with vowel before Ugarit,

the case that Greeks added vowels, or phoenician did not Use vowels (expel them), is not yet certain, a ceramic λυκηθος that is found in North aegean, proves that Pelasgian Language had alphabet with Vowels,
Plasgian alphabet is after proto-sinaitic code and has 29 letters, later forms have 27 as the Greek alphabet, and in koine left only 24.
instead of pure phoenician that has less,
Pelasgian are know to found alphabet, Both Greek-Latin of Κυμη Cyme, and Phoenocian,

Now about invasions, of the Greeks,
when Europe was invaded? from ancient times until late medieval, and a new peacefull invasion started after WW2,
lets see
R1b to many is connected with south caucas Armenian area and Hettits.
R1a is connected to areas of Aryan for many afganistan and in south caucas for others (area south of armenia)
G people are connected with far behind dwellers of Europe, and an Invasion at 900 BV with Etruscans, and many others,

J1 is northern Caucas and a branch is semitic,
J2 is Anatolian but is also is connected with India,

E-V13 is Kushetic, but moved in south Balkans at 2000 BC
I Gave links in another posts,

Now seems like Europe's only left Y-DNA is I,
By understanding that Europe was invaded from south to North, and from east to west, then you can realize many,

first try to understand and find which are the Slavic people, the R1a, or the I2a?

second Bulgarian invasion (Balkars) was not made by Slavic people, but from Hunish-Avars etc non IE. Yet Bulgaria speaks Slavic IE,
seems like Balkars did not manage to change language, or they accepted Slavic at Cyrillos times,

Finnaly I repeat my shelf again,
some J1 and J2 are consider Greek,
G people passed from Greece,
E-V13 entered Balkans at 2000 BC from Cyprus,
Greeks Myceneans had simmilar Funeral customs with Thracians, and both had with Levant, and Egypt and Middle East.

now the rest is enough,
even you admit that Pomaks autosomal is more connected with Greeks,
That means that Thracians are more connected with Greeks than Balto-Slavic people,

simply your equation R1a=Slavic is wrong,

in your previous post you were strongly supported that,

All R1a are Slavic you said,
Today you say that R1a is not Slavic

try to make fact simple and clear to your shelf,



Well where the hell is the Slavic R1a then? It seems to me that you don't understand the problem.

If it is Thracian than it cannot be Hellenic.



R1A is not Slavic as it is not German or Turkish or property of any modern nation or state where it was found. That is the fallacy of your thinking that I have pointed to many times. R1a simply tells

That is what you don't Understand,

Yes Greek language is connected with Lithuanian,
But also is connected with English
and Latin,
That is what you understand,
I can give you thousands of words of Hommers that are in R1b in west Europe, and thousands that are in G2a3 culture, and do not exist in Slavic R1a languages,

Your problem is that you want to put Greeks in Slavic population due to R1a,
Now if you search ancient Greeks scripts,
Locri people, Tall enough,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locrians
connections,
Lellekas in Greek Modern means tall man with not wide shoulders, and also is another word for Stork bird,
Makedonian means tall people,
Lelleges came from minor Asia, Not from North,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leleges
remember that Makedonians were 2 tribes the Locri and the Argeiads,
Argeiads were short, muscular, with wide body and shoulders, (Central Greek Makedonia)
Locri were tall, with thin skeleton, (upper west Makedonia)

the connection of Alexander with R1a, or R1b or J1 or J2 or G2 is a question that can not answered,

but from bible we learn that Iones dwell among Tharseis, (thracians? thyrrsenians?)

Greeks are from a unification movement that started 4000 years before.

Greek belong to the group of ancient civilization connected with minor asia cultures, Levant, and south Balcan,
Greek then expand to Italy etc,
the connection of Greeks with Slavic,
Yes Greeks belong to All families,
they Belong to R1a family,
they belong to R1b family,
they Belong to J family,
yet Greeks belong to no one,
Not even to Greeks,

that is what you don't get,
Greeks are a mix of Minor Asians with Balcanic people, and Cypriots, that happened in Thessaly
that later expand back to minor asia, Levant and Cyprus (also west).


YOU CAN NOT PUT GREEKS ARMENIANS HETTIT etc TO NEW FAMILIES OF MODERN IE GROUPS,
that is what you get,

the case of an Ancient R1a in Ancient Greece, and In ancient Thracians,
and the % of Today we don't know if they also added by medieval, as also the case that a R1a branch came from minor Asia instead of Steppes,

now about Bulgaria that is a good search area,
we now that was mostly spoken by Odrusse Thracians,
Later change to Greek the west areas, and the black sea coast,
Later turn to roman (Romylia)
The Balkars enter, the Goths enter, (Alarichus)
but yet Roman and Greek were dominant, or at least official,
and later after cyrillic aphabet and bible translation Bulgarian change to Slavic, by some Kings demands,
Now the case of Pomaks of Rodopi Mountains that Speak a dialect that is basically Slavic, but follows some Greek Gramar laws, and contains many Greek, drive Georgiev to assume that ancient Thracians spoke proto-Slavic,
But on the other hand the Vrygian and the Paeonian(Skopje) vocabulary has not much common with southSlavic, and after Greek isotones,
the Daci-Albanian approach links them to an ancient Itallic language,

according to you an isolated community for more than 1500 years has autosomal near Greek,
well since for you put Pomaks Thracians more close to Greeks than Slavic. well then probably ancient Thracian were more Greeks than south Slavic, (If isolated Pomaks are thracians)
and indeed south Slavic culture is imported at 6th century,
But if Pomaks are Thracians that means they came from East Mediterrenean,

the thing you don't understand is that Slavic and Germanic tribes are connected with Sweat water Cultures,
while Greeks are a salt water culture, Like Thyrrenians, Levantines,
now about your determinationof R1a, tell me how much J exist in Bulgaria?

AndronikD
24-05-11, 12:17
Well by what I know Autosomal DNA is major what counts about a nation,
a nation is mostly declared by its Autosomal and not by Y-DNA or mtDNA .....

Of course it would, if you are Dienekes, you would say such nonsense, because using autosomal DNA you could relate everybody with everybody and distance anybody to someone else, according to your wishing. Nobody uses it anymore since autosomal DNA deals with the so called outer characteristics of the humans which are exposed to randomness and adaptation .
Y-DNA and mtDNA is the storage of unchangeable data about ancestry that is why everybody sane deals with them when researching population histories, and certainly not autosomal DNA.
That was what I was talking to you about. There is such an ignorance and spamming in your posts that it is not worth commenting. So i will make a few points instead of repeating myself on your parrot-like repetitions.

1. R1A DOES NOT PROBABLY means that they had a common ancestor and shared same culture some time ago (since there was no in-vitro fertilization back then got it?) it means that FOR SURE since that's the sense of the grouping itself.
2. E- V13 is a very specific sub-cluster on the Balkans and it certainly is not 2000 years old. That just speaks of your ignorance. What large scale invasion happened 2000 years ago that would bring it here?
3. Don't prescribe modern nation's (or notions of modern nation's) names to haplogroups (although it is a practice in autosomal research since it deals with geographic spread of patterns that is all it can do). It is unreasonable. It is enormously unreasnobable.
4. If Thracians were related to Greeks they would have been the same haplogroup. Got it? That's the primary pointer of common ancestor, and the one for Thracians and Greeks is very, very, very distant in the past. Genetics cannot be refuted with fairy tales.
5. Take it easy with all those invasions. There is a difference between invasion and conquest and intrusions. I doubt that even in the 20-th century invasions were possible. Have you ever wondered what it takes to make an invasion????
6. READ MY REFERENCES You have in my last reference at least 4-5 arguments against any larger migration in the Balkans in the last 10 000 years. And yet you take invasion like popcorns. They jump out with no reason whenever it suits you. That's the funny thing now.

iapetoc
24-05-11, 13:19
Well where the hell is the Slavic R1a then? It seems to me that you don't understand the problem.

If it is Thracian than it cannot be Hellenic.



R1A is not Slavic as it is not German or Turkish or property of any modern nation or state where it was found. That is the fallacy of your thinking that I have pointed to many times. R1a simply tells

what can i expect,

simply you put data and the nyou draw them,

it is out of discuss,

simply you don't know Gennetic, and you use marks just to claim your Ideas,

for you exist only Y-Dna Nations,


Well you try to connect R1a with Slavic, so make an arguement about Greeks and Makedonia, and you failed,
you try to connect and the Pomaks and Thracians with Balto-Slavic, and you failed,
Although I don't deny a relation of pre-, not a proto
and then you blame Dienekes,

you follow a mark that has a law mutation,
and you not following families,

according your thoughts we are still 'Cro-Mans'
If I follow your method,
lets See.
we Found in a cave that a homo Erectus was R1a,
Yeah Homo-Erectus was Slavic,

that is the way you think,instead the nation is a wide family, of common ancestors that splits, or changes according to mix,so cases like anaimias, inheritage characteristics of eye color etc are defining a nation, but that does not mean all people have same Dna belong to them,
simply a nation is after common memories, common language, etc,a kid in Spain that has thalassaimia is not a Pomak, but if majority of pomaks have thalassaimia probably they lived around Aegean before Years, and mixed with others that had that mark,well by what I know some tribes in Africa have their own rules of what is attractive,
I know about a tribe, that a girl passes among boys to chose the one with perfect nose, if you look the boys they all almost the same as twins.
yet I don't know if all have same Y-Dna,

so all boys carry a Dna Mark that gives that nose, but the Y-Dna could be different.maybe for you if some of them has R1a is also a Slavic,
Y-dna is a primary tool, also mtDNA, but there are not the only marks that make a nation
the more the marks the better the view,

by blaming Dienekes you simply prove that you are not in knowledge of Genetics,
By in knowledge of Propaganda,
I quess who are your patrons,
Panslavism, PanTurkism Pan Albanism, PanHellenism times are over.

Greeks are Hospital people that accepted many populations that came,
but your effort to make them another populations just drives us mad,




6. READ MY REFERENCES You have in my last reference at least 4-5 arguments against any larger migration in the Balkans in the last 10 000 years. And yet you take invasion like popcorns. They jump out with no reason whenever it suits you. That's the funny thing now.

well maybe for you Romans never entered Balkans, never devastate, did not make Villaches (Villages), hundrends of thousands of roman soldier never populated with a local girl,
yes maybe aromani cinqueani were here before 10 000 years!!!!!!!!

you are nothing more than a fanatic that knows nothing about Genetics, and simply
you make an equation
R1a = Slavic
Thracians = R1a
Thracians = Slavic
Greek Makedonia has 1/5 R1a =Slavic,
wow what about Fyrom that has 1/7 R1a? is Slavic also?
if I follow your method the Fyrom and Bulgaria IS GREEK (Big J-Ydna)
and Greece IS SLAVIC


:useless: :useless: :useless: :useless: :useless:

who knows Sarendo Italy has R1a so is Slavic also, maybe they came from Baltic 20 000 years before
or Spartacos the Slavic (Thracian) satisfy many women there
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:


Yes Dienekes is not a good analyst, :thinking: :thinking: :thinking:
:wary2: :wary2:
if he was patronised by a Slavic Center then he will be better????
if his analysis suits you then you probably say that he is the Best
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

I am a G2a3 what is my nationality following your method???
I am not Slavic, so am I human??
have i the right to live?

AndronikD
24-05-11, 14:40
what can i expect,

simply you put data and the nyou draw them,

it is out of discuss,

simply you don't know Gennetic, and you use marks just to claim your Ideas,

for you exist only Y-Dna Nations,


according your thoughts we are still 'Cro-Mans'
If I follow your method,
lets See.
we Found in a cave that a homo Erectus was R1a,
Yeah Homo-Erectus was Slavic,

that is the way you think,instead the nation is a wide family, of common ancestors that splits, or changes according to mix,so cases like anaimias, inheritage characteristics of eye color etc are defining a nation, but that does not mean all people have same Dna belong to them,
simply a nation is after common memories, common language, etc,a kid in Spain that has thalassaimia is not a Pomak, but if majority of pomaks have thalassaimia probably they lived around Aegean before Years, and mixed with others that had that mark,well by what I know some tribes in Africa have their own rules of what is attractive,
I know about a tribe, that a girl passes among boys to chose the one with perfect nose, if you look the boys they all almost the same as twins.
yet I don't know if all have same Y-Dna,

so all boys carry a Dna Mark that gives that nose, but the Y-Dna could be different.maybe for you if some of them has R1a is also a Slavic,
Y-dna is a primary tool, also mtDNA, but there are not the only marks that make a nation
the more the marks the better the view,

by blaming Dienekes you simply prove that you are not in knowledge of Genetics,
By in knowledge of Propaganda,
I quess who are your patrons,
Panslavism, PanTurkism Pan Albanism, PanHellenism times are over.

Greeks are Hospital people that accepted many populations that came,
but your effort to make them another populations just drives us mad,




well maybe for you Romans never entered Balkans, never devastate, did not make Villaches (Villages), hundrends of thousands of roman soldier never populated with a local girl,
yes maybe aromani cinqueani were here before 10 000 years!!!!!!!!

you are nothing more than a fanatic that knows nothing about Genetics, and simply
you make an equation
R1a = Slavic
Thracians = R1a
Thracians = Slavic
Greek Makedonia has 1/5 R1a =Slavic,
wow what about Fyrom that has 1/7 R1a? is Slavic also?
if I follow your method the Fyrom and Bulgaria IS GREEK (Big J-Ydna)
and Greece IS SLAVIC


:useless: :useless: :useless: :useless: :useless:

who knows Sarendo Italy has R1a so is Slavic also, maybe they came from Baltic 20 000 years before
or Spartacos the Slavic (Thracian) satisfy many women there
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:


I blame Dieneks for it's methods and I blame you for your ignorance. You are the one that connects nations with genes and yet you blame me to be a nationalist. Hmmm, funny. I am only interested in inconsistensies of the romantic theories about the Balkans, and that is why genetics are good for since they do not incline to be "politically correct" as you would want them to be. I am Macedonian and will stay Macedonian regardless of genes, fairy tales, Greeks and I don't know what.
And that story about the boy (no matter how ignorant of what the population genetics deal with) just proves what I am saying although I doubt you are aware of that.



Well you try to connect R1a with Slavic, so make an arguement about Greeks and Makedonia, and you failed,
you try to connect and the Pomaks and Thracians with Balto-Slavic, and you failed,
Although I don't deny a relation of pre-, not a proto
and then you blame Dienekes,

you follow a mark that has a law mutation,
and you not following families,

I would like to see elaboration on how IO failed. With a rather more thoughtfull arguments than this:



the connection of Alexander with R1a, or R1b or J1 or J2 or G2 is a question that can not answered,

but from bible we learn that Iones dwell among Tharseis, (thracians? thyrrsenians?)


About autosomal DNA I cannot REPEAT myself untill unconsciousness. It's funny to say that Pomaks are Greeks because thay have thalassemia. So I can say that Greeks are Kenyans based on that. Funny. Besides I do not know of a research that says that Pomaks have same autosomal patterns as the Greks, Far from it.

So about autosomal research: http://www.buzzle.com/articles/autosomal-dna-testing.html

AndronikD
24-05-11, 17:33
well how about ancient Thracian R1a Y-Dna from Tombs,

seems like an ancient R1a existed before slavic invasions

and surely it is not slavic But Greek R1a the IE branch of Greeks,

as you see son R1a existed in Greece and Bulgaria before the invasion of Slavic people,



And the answer in post nr. 175:


Well where the hell is the Slavic R1a then? It seems to me that you don't understand the problem.

If it is Thracian than it cannot be Hellenic.

And you are implying that I am using the ethnic adjective to R1A?
What is next i wonder

By the way my previous post was withheld by the administrators (I guess) for some reason so I would refrain from further posts until it is posted on the thread.

iapetoc
24-05-11, 18:14
By the way my previous post was withheld by the administrators (I guess) for some reason so I would refrain from further posts until it is posted on the thread.

it had happened to me many times,
every minutes drops me and logs off, etc

I don't know what is your problem?
the R1a that exists among Greeks 000 years now?
or the case that all R1a is not Slavic?
(for me it is more possible that I2a is more Thracian than R1a, but until today evidences are showing opposite).
Greeks do not Deny a possible invasion 3000 BC before from Steppes,
But Deny their link and origin from Steppes, cause it is mostly Minor Asian, and return Back.
Greeks do not Deny their connections with Thracians, especially Vrygians Bithini Paeones,
but they deny their connections above Donau,

if that is correct
Sorin Mihai Olteanu, a Romanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians) linguist and Thracologist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracologist), recently proposed that the Thracian (as well as the Dacian) language was a centum language in its earlier period, and developed satem features over time.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_Thracian#cite_note-14) One of the arguments for this idea is that there are many close cognates between Thracian and Ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek). There are also substratum words in the Romanian language that are cited as evidence of the genetic relationship of the Thracian language to ancient Greek and the Ancient Macedonian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language) (the extinct language or Greek dialect of ancient Macedon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedon)). The Greek language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) itself may be grouped with the Phrygian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language) and Armenian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_language), both of which have been grouped with Thracian in the past.

Then indeed south Slavic is Medieval imported, and Georgiev is wrong.
then Greeks build colonies in Taurica cause they had simmilar Linguistic,

the known thracian vocabulary as written by Greek Thrakologists is giving enough pre-slavic elements, but also words that do not exist in South Slavic (no similar roots)

Elias2
29-05-11, 00:24
President Obama is "bored" with the name issue.

US President Barack Obama has told his Macedonian counterpart that he is "bored" with the notorious dispute the Balkan country has about its name with Greece.
"Every time I meet the Macedonian President we talk about the name dispute. This bores me. I promise you, Mr. President to talk again to Papandreou about this issue. I believe that he wants and is ready to find a solution to this problem," Obama told Macedonia's President Gjorge Ivanov, as cited by MIA and BGNES, in Warsaw where the two met during a dinner that the US President had with 20 heads of state from Central and Eastern Europe.
Obama has pledged support for Macedonia's aspirations to join NATO and the EU, which have largely been blocked by an informal Greek veto over the name dispute. The US President has promised the Macedonian head of state specific results from the ongoing talks.
The dispute about Macedonia's name has been going on since the country formally known as FYROM broke free from the former Yugoslavia in the early 1990s. It is based on Greek concerns of potential territorial claims because of the fact that most of Northern Greece is administratively known as Macedonia, the name of the historic and geographic region in this part of the Balkans.


http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=128679

Elias2
07-06-11, 18:36
It seems there might be a compromise emerging soon between Greece and FYR of Macedonia now that their elections are over.

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/macedonia-urged-to-solve-name-dispute

Macedonia (skopje) seems like the new name.

iapetoc
27-07-11, 22:28
Although I try to be calm, some posts are funny very funny,

it comes from a person who believes he is a True ancient Greek, but speaks a slavic language, and comes from the lands of Dusan of Serbia,

well he make Linguistic lessons and Find some very wise, what? the linguistic trash
at year 2011 he discovered and write down the most trash work I ever seen

just look below,


Greek language.

Well teach us the turkish language while you are at it. Just ask your baba if you need help. Oh here i will start it for you.

Here is your continuity

TURKISH ENGLISH GREEK
det Custom Adeti
Afaroz Excommunicate Aforismos
Aga Land owner Agas
Ahmak Idiot Ahmakis
Ahtapot Octopus Htapodi
Alan Area, ground Alana
Alarga Open sea, distant Alarga
Aman For mercy's sake Aman
Anadolu Anatolia (East in Greek) Anatoli
Ananas Pineapple Ananas
Anason Aniseed Anithos
Anfora Anchor Amphoreus
Angarya Forced labor Angaria
Aptal Stupid Abdalis
Apukurya Carnival Apokria
Arap Negro, bogyman Arapis
Arnavut Albanian Arnautis
Asik Someone in love Asikis
Atlet Athlete Athlitis
Avanak Gullible, stupid Avanakis
Ayran A drink Ariani
Baba - Father - Babas
Baca - Chimney - Batzias
Bacak - Leg, leg of trousers in G.- Batzaki
Bacanak - Brother in law - Batjanakis
Baglama - A string instrument - Baglamas
Bahce - Garden - Bahtses
Bahsis - Tip - Baxisi
Bakir - Copper - Bakiri
Bakkal - Grocer - Bakkalis
Baklava - Baklava - Baklavas
Balta - Ax - Baltas
Bamya - Okra - Bamia
Barbunya - A fish - Barbunia
Barut - Gunpowder - Baruti
Battaniye - Woolen Blanket - Batania
Batakci - Swindler - Bataxis
Bayrak - Flag - Bairaki
Bekar - Batchelor - Bekiaris
Bekri - Drunk - Bekris
Bela - Trouble - Belas
Benzin - Petrol, gas - Benzina
Bereket - Abundance, plenty - Bereket
Beton - Concrete - Beton
Bey - Mr. - Beis
Bezelye - Pea - Bizeli
Biber - Pepper - Piperi
Biftek - Steak - Bifteki
Bodrum - Cellar, dungeon - Boudroumi
Bomba - Bomb - Bomba
Bostan - Vegetable field, garden - Bostani
Bora - Storm - Bora
Boya - Paint - Bogia
Borek - Pastry, pie - Boureki
Bre - Hi, you - Vre
Budala - Idiot - Boudalas
Bulgur - Boiled wheat - Bligouri
But - Thigh - Bouti
Buz - Ice, very cold - Bouzi
Buzuki - Bouzouki - Bouzouki
Cacik - A drink with cucumbers- Tzatziki
Caka - Swagger, vanity - Tsaka
Cam - Window pane - Tzami
Cami - Mosque - Tzami
Cambaz - Acrobat, dealer in G.- Tzambazis
Cenabet - Crabbed person - Tzanabetis
Cep - Pocket - Tsepi
Cereme - Fine or cost of damage- Tzeremes
Cezve - Coffee Pot - Tzesves
Ciger - Liver, lungs - Tziyeri
Cimbiz - Tweezers - Tsimpida
Cuce - Dwarf - Tsutzes
Cadir - Tent - Tsiantiri
Cakirkeyif - Slightly drunk - Tsakir-kefi
Cali - Thorny plant - Tsiali
Calim - Flexibility, show off - Tsalimi
Cam - Pine tree - Tsami
Canak - Shallow bowl - Tsanaki
Canta - Handbag - Tsanta
Capacul - Untidy - Tsapatulis
Capari - Weight anchor - Tsapari
Capkin - Seducer, coquettish - Tsahpinis
Capraz - Crossed - Tsaprazi
Cardak - Hut of dried branches - Tsardaki
Carsi - Market - Charsi
Carik - Rustic shoe - Tsarouhi
Catal - Fork - Tsatala
Catra Patra - Stumbling speech - Tsatra patra
Cavus- Sergeant - Tsausis
Cay - Tea - Tsai
Celebi - Pleasant man, mentor - Tselebis
Cember - Circle - Tsemperi
Cengel - Hook - Tsingeli
Ciklet - Chewing gum - Tsikla
Ciftetelli- A dance - siftetelli
Ciftlik - Large country estate - Tsifliki
Cifit - Tight in money - Tsifoutis
Cimento - Cement - Tsimento
Cinko - Zinc - Tsingos
Ciftlik - Big farm, property - Tsifliki
Cirak - Apprentice - Tsiraki
Cipura- A fish - Tsipura
Ciroz - A fish - Tsiros
Coban - Shepherd - Tsobanis
Corap - Woolen sock- Tsurapis
Corba - soup - Tsorbas
Corek - Large bun - Tsoureki
Cotra - File fish - Tsotra

Ancient GREEK and Turkish are same? Go fool somebody else who dont know your fake identity.


I am gonna write down 1 by one the Hoax of the words he gave,

Lets see

1 αφορισμος aforismos means expell, cut the connection, exorcism
the term exist from first christian church, and also in Latin so maybe christians spoke Turkish at 1rst century !!!!! :laughing: so turks took from Greeks

2 aga hm aga-mamnon acha-menids akka-dians ηγεμων virb αγω ago ( I lead) is not mycenean but came from central :laughing: so turks took from Greeks

3 ahmakis? were did found that word? amakis means the one who goes with with other people to eat free αμακα is the together we eat your food, we smoke your cigars, comes from ancient Ομου = together so no connection with ahmak idiot :useless:

4 oktopus from Greek okto = 8 and πους = foot I wonder the Turkish word 8 is okto? :useless:
so turks took from Greeks :laughing:

5 Alan - alana :laughing: search for ancient Greek word Alea αλεα or αυλαια avlαιa τηε IE alley
maybe Turks speak IE :useless: so turks took from Greeks

6 alarga :laughing: the Greek word for sea als alos and the word argos alarga means al-argos = flat sea, sea valley, so turks took from Greeks

7 aman turkish word :laughing: better read ancient Greek literature or Bible
Ωιμε = woe ancient
Ουαι = woe Hellenistic
Ali-mono = ελλυες σε εμας Hell upon us
so turks took from Greeks

8 Anadolu Anatoli :laughing: Virb ανα-τελω means stood up again, re stand, so from Hellenistic times even in bible the sun ανατελει raises,
so turks took from Greeks

9 ananas :laughing: yes greks learn ananas from Turkish who grew ananas in minor asia, maybe english and germans learn it from turks?
Ananas fruit is a global word and means a fruit or vegie that grows in equador circle not mediterrenean :laughing:

10 anason anithos :laughing: anithos and his cousin marathos are 2 almost same smelling plants for food,
in fact exist in Bulgarian Fyrom and many other languages,
in english is aniseed, maybe english language learn it from ottomans? :laughing:
so turks took from Greeks

11 Anfora Anchor Amphoreus :laughing: anfora is anchor but amphoreus is amphorae :laughing:
the Greek word for anchor is αγκυρα agkura and means to grap, to stabiliaze, the hook for fish is αγκιστρι agkistri and the place you are hooked is αγκυριον agkurion,
in fact I believe that word anchor is a Tottaly Greek word
in fact the plant Cucumis sativus has the name σικυον but in modern is aggouri because uses antennas to grab το αγκυρωθει,
so turks took from Greeks :laughing:


12 Angarya Forced labor Angaria :laughing:
Greek αγγαρεια
search the bible the new testament written at 1rst century
και εαν τις σε αγγαραυσει μια, εσυ θελεις υπαγει δις
'and if someone force you to once, you must want to go twice
so the virb αγγαρευω exist from 1rst century in Hellenistic!!! :shocked:
I wonder from whom the Turks took it? from central asia maybe? :useless:

so the case is simple until now 12/12 you are out,

your linguistic crap became a bumerang to your point of you,
YOU SIMPLY COPY PASTE RUBBISH AND INFACT YOU PROVE THAT TURKS TOOK WORDS FROM GREEKS AND NOT THE OPPOSITE

So your case of Proving that Greeks are turks just went Boom,
infact once again you prove that your Theories are a bouquet of Lies
as your claims that Alexander was slavic

DejaVu
27-07-11, 23:29
Although I try to be calm, some posts are funny very funny,

it comes from a person who believes he is a True ancient Greek, but speaks a slavic language, and comes from the lands of Dusan of Serbia,

well he make Linguistic lessons and Find some very wise, what? the linguistic trash
at year 2011 he discovered and write down the most trash work I ever seen

just look below,




I am gonna write down 1 by one the Hoax of the words he gave,

Lets see

1 αφορισμος aforismos means expell, cut the connection, exorcism
the term exist from first christian church, and also in Latin so maybe christians spoke Turkish at 1rst century !!!!! :laughing: so turks took from Greeks

2 aga hm aga-mamnon acha-menids akka-dians ηγεμων virb αγω ago ( I lead) is not mycenean but came from central :laughing: so turks took from Greeks

3 ahmakis? were did found that word? amakis means the one who goes with with other people to eat free αμακα is the together we eat your food, we smoke your cigars, comes from ancient Ομου = together so no connection with ahmak idiot :useless:

4 oktopus from Greek okto = 8 and πους = foot I wonder the Turkish word 8 is okto? :useless:
so turks took from Greeks :laughing:

5 Alan - alana :laughing: search for ancient Greek word Alea αλεα or αυλαια avlαιa τηε IE alley
maybe Turks speak IE :useless: so turks took from Greeks

6 alarga :laughing: the Greek word for sea als alos and the word argos alarga means al-argos = flat sea, sea valley, so turks took from Greeks

7 aman turkish word :laughing: better read ancient Greek literature or Bible
Ωιμε = woe ancient
Ουαι = woe Hellenistic
Ali-mono = ελλυες σε εμας Hell upon us
so turks took from Greeks

8 Anadolu Anatoli :laughing: Virb ανα-τελω means stood up again, re stand, so from Hellenistic times even in bible the sun ανατελει raises,
so turks took from Greeks

9 ananas :laughing: yes greks learn ananas from Turkish who grew ananas in minor asia, maybe english and germans learn it from turks?
Ananas fruit is a global word and means a fruit or vegie that grows in equador circle not mediterrenean :laughing:

10 anason anithos :laughing: anithos and his cousin marathos are 2 almost same smelling plants for food,
in fact exist in Bulgarian Fyrom and many other languages,
in english is aniseed, maybe english language learn it from ottomans? :laughing:
so turks took from Greeks

11 Anfora Anchor Amphoreus :laughing: anfora is anchor but amphoreus is amphorae :laughing:
the Greek word for anchor is αγκυρα agkura and means to grap, to stabiliaze, the hook for fish is αγκιστρι agkistri and the place you are hooked is αγκυριον agkurion,
in fact I believe that word anchor is a Tottaly Greek word
in fact the plant Cucumis sativus has the name σικυον but in modern is aggouri because uses antennas to grab το αγκυρωθει,
so turks took from Greeks :laughing:


12 Angarya Forced labor Angaria :laughing:
Greek αγγαρεια
search the bible the new testament written at 1rst century
και εαν τις σε αγγαραυσει μια, εσυ θελεις υπαγει δις
'and if someone force you to once, you must want to go twice
so the virb αγγαρευω exist from 1rst century in Hellenistic!!! :shocked:
I wonder from whom the Turks took it? from central asia maybe? :useless:

so the case is simple until now 12/12 you are out,

your linguistic crap became a bumerang to your point of you,
YOU SIMPLY COPY PASTE RUBBISH AND INFACT YOU PROVE THAT TURKS TOOK WORDS FROM GREEKS AND NOT THE OPPOSITE

So your case of Proving that Greeks are turks just went Boom,
infact once again you prove that your Theories are a bouquet of Lies
as your claims that Alexander was slavic

REPOST: Greeks are Sub-Saharans. FACT!


The Greek Europeans?

Ann Hum Biol. 2010 Jul 29.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20666704

Abstract
Background: The HLA polymorphism is a powerful genetic tool to study population origins. By analysing allele frequencies and haplotypes in different populations, it is possible to identify ethnic groups and establish the genetic relationships among them. Aim: The Berber (endogenous Tunisians) HLA class I and class II genotypes were analysed and compared with those of Mediterranean and Sub-Saharan African communities using genetic distances, Neighbour-Joining dendrograms, correspondence and haplotype analysis. Subjects and methods: One hundred and five unrelated Berbers were typed for HLA class I (A, B) and class II (DRB1, DQB1) gene alleles using reverse dot-blot hybridization. Results: High frequencies of A*0201 (24.76%), A*3402 (22.38%) and B*44 (32.85%) alleles were recorded for Berbers, the highest recorded for Mediterranean and North African populations. This study shows a close relatedness of Tunisian Berbers to other Tunisians, North Africans and Iberians. Conclusion: The apparent relatedness of Tunisian Berbers to present-day (North African) Tunisians, Algerians and Moroccans suggests that the Arab invasion of North Africa (7(th)-11(th) centuries AD) did not significantly impact the genetic makeup of North Africans. Furthermore, Tunisian Berbers appear to be closely related to Iberians (Spaniards and Basques), indicating that the 7(th) century AD gene flow of invaders was low in Iberians and that the main part of their genetic pool came after the Northward Saharan migration, when hyper-arid conditions were established in Sahara (before 6000 BC). Other studied populations belong to the old Mediterranean substratum, which has been present in the area since pre-Neolithic times. This study indicates a higher proportion of Iberian than Arab ancestry in Tunisian Berbers, which is of value in evaluating the evolutionary history of present-day Tunisians. Greeks seem to share genetic HLA features (Chr 6) with Sub-Saharans. The relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharans has been confirmed by other studies based on chromosome 7 genetic markers.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506?dopt=Abstract.
Villena 2001 claims that Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the "Mycaenian Greeks",Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans... Hajjeja 2005 also claims that "Our study shows that the Greeks are separate from other Mediterranean populations and tend to cluster with Sub-Saharans (Figs. 2 and 3). This result confirms the Sub-Saharan origin of Greeks". Di Giacomo 2003 reported for Y Hg A found in Mitilini-Greece. Al-Zahery 2003 also separates the Macedonians/Europeans from the Greeks.....or vice versa.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16473309
HLA genes in Southern Tunisians (Ghannouch area) and their Relationship with other Mediterraneans.
A. Hajjej a, S. Hmida a,*, H. Kaabi a,A. Dridi a,A. Jridi a, A. El Gaa1ed b, K. Boukef a
a National Blood Transfusion Centre, Tunis, Tunisia
b Laboratory of Immunogenetics, Department of Biology, University of Tunis, El Manar

Y-Chromosome Haplotypes in the Greek–Turkish Area
http://www.springerlink.com/content/h347402u768310m3/

Measuring European Population Stratification with Microarray Genotype Data
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852743/

iapetoc
27-07-11, 23:42
who cares about you ?

YOU ARE A LIAR AS ALL YOUR POSTS,
go back to your mud

DejaVu
27-07-11, 23:45
who cares about you ?

YOU ARE A LIAR AS ALL YOUR POSTS,
go back to your mud

στη μητέρα σας ομοφυλόφιλος βλασφημίας = όλοι οι Έλληνες

iapetoc
27-07-11, 23:51
στη μητέρα σας ομοφυλόφιλος βλασφημίας


what?

you hide behind a screen and you insult with cheap sexiest way,

no matter you do, i will not ask to ban you,
simply you lose control, cause all the indoctrination made to you by ex-communists proved to a lie,
I feel sory for you, cause all your life you will hunt a lie as truth,
pathetic, miserable

DejaVu
28-07-11, 00:08
what?

you hide behind a screen and you insult with cheap sexiest way,

no matter you do, i will not ask to ban you,
simply you lose control, cause all the indoctrination made to you by ex-communists proved to a lie,
I feel sory for you, cause all your life you will hunt a lie as truth,
pathetic, miserable

Actually I want to come over and smash your head in a thousand pieces at least.

The problem with you is, you want to discuss every single word in every sentence. Making new discussions that none cares of.

iapetoc
28-07-11, 00:24
Actually I want to come over and smash your head in a thousand pieces at least.

The problem with you is, you want to discuss every single word in every sentence. Making new discussions that none cares of.

maybe

But I live in the light and the truth,
Not in a fake dream
fake dreams can bring psychosis

DejaVu
28-07-11, 00:28
maybe

But I live in the light and the truth,
Not in a fake dream
fake dreams can bring psychosis

You have been forgotten by god you just havent realized it yet. Worst spammer ever.

iapetoc
28-07-11, 00:36
You have been forgotten by god you just havent realized it yet. Worst spammer ever.


you have insulted the gods, you make them turks

DejaVu
28-07-11, 00:40
you have insulted the gods, you make them turks

Are you serious? Please stop spamming dont continue to comment every sentence here or people will really think you are insane.

iapetoc
28-07-11, 00:46
Are you serious? Please stop spamming dont continue to comment every sentence here or people will really think you are insane.

are serious?
you post 000 lies and you order me to stop?

you insult me and my mother and you me to stop?

when you stop posting Lies I will.

I DO NOT NEED LESSONS FROM A PERSON WHO POST FAKE AND FACULTATED POSTS

PEOPLE HERE ARE SERIOUS AND HAVE IQ TO REALISE WHO ARE YOU AND HOW SERIOUS ARE YOU

DejaVu
28-07-11, 00:50
are serious?
you post 000 lies and you order me to stop?

you insult me and my mother and you me to stop?

when you stop posting Lies I will.

I DO NOT NEED LESSONS FROM A PERSON WHO POST FAKE AND FACULTATED POSTS

PEOPLE HERE ARE SERIOUS AND HAVE IQ TO REALISE WHO ARE YOU AND HOW SERIOUS ARE YOU

You have issues. Why do you want to have the last word all the time? Do you feel good when you answer everything rubbish?

iapetoc
28-07-11, 00:54
NO but I tired with your trash

on the other hand do you feel pleasure when you spread Lies and spread Dirt to ther peopple and Nations?

Do you have an orgasm when you post lies and rubbish?

Do you feel that you completed your Mission every time you post a lie?

Do you Feel that complete when you insult persons and their mothers?

DejaVu
28-07-11, 00:59
NO but I tired with your trash

on the other hand do you feel pleasure when you spread Lies and spread Dirt to ther peopple and Nations?

Do you have an orgasm when you post lies and rubbish?

Do you feel that you completed your Mission every time you post a lie?

Do you Feel that complete when you insult persons and their mothers?

What lies? Original evidence is a lie to you because it does not suit your dream.

iapetoc
28-07-11, 01:08
What lies? Original evidence is a lie to you because it does not suit your dream.

pff

the liar now wants to go above,

read #203
I will give you that pleasure,

your linguistic prove that Greeks are turkish just went caboom in #203,

again you have been proved that you are deceived by a cheap not sciefintic prove,

End of Discuss, you just copy paste whatever you find in serious forum
you are not a serious.

DejaVu
28-07-11, 01:15
pff

the liar now wants to go above,

read #203
I will give you that pleasure,

your linguistic prove that Greeks are turkish just went caboom in #203,

again you have been proved that you are deceived by a cheap not sciefintic prove,

End of Discuss, you just copy paste whatever you find in serious forum
you are not a serious.

Greeks are related to Turks and very close to Turkish DNA, personal appearance and even linguistic words, what more is needed?

iapetoc
28-07-11, 01:22
Greeks are related to Turks and very close to Turkish DNA, personal appearance and even linguistic words, what more is needed?

that is because Turks Loan Greek vocabulary,

DejaVu
28-07-11, 01:30
that is because Turks Loan Greek vocabulary,

Nope, thats because there never was any Greek Nation and the Ancient Greeks are dead thats why you are using turkish words. You and the other Sub-saharans are partly from Turkish descent.

iapetoc
28-07-11, 02:00
Nope, thats because there never was any Greek Nation and the Ancient Greeks are dead thats why you are using turkish words. You and the other Sub-saharans are partly from Turkish descent.

pfffffff

I am from Balaina modern katalonia a village in Mt Pieria
we were here since 1650 when my family moved from old bala village at the top and west side of Mount Pieria,
I am was and will be Makedonian, as my fathers, and my fathers fathers, and my fathers fathers fathers,
since some of you lived here before 1912 we accept the geographical term Makedonia with a word to testify origin or nation,
but we do not accept a same state with Greeks albanians turks serbs bulgarians lost ID maCedonians
My grand father's brother died for that, so I can speak my fathers language free with no fear,

the rest is just a provoke by some fyromians who want to push strange situations and another war in Balkans.
do you realize what will happened if Greece demands the land and fortunes of Greeks that lived in Fyrom with the Turkish pappers? (kitap)

you know the truth, the rest is a game for the big ones to sell guns,
if you have shares in a gun industry go ahead, but you live in sweden, so your child will not injured,
but what about my child? what about the kids of those you suppose are defending?
with cheap lies and tricks only cheap wins you get,
I am not allowing anyone to have my ID

DejaVu
28-07-11, 02:04
pfffffff

I am from Balaina modern katalonia a village in Mt Pieria
we were here since 1650 when my family moved from old bala village at the top and west side of Mount Pieria,
I am was and will be Makedonian, as my fathers, and my fathers fathers, and my fathers fathers fathers,
since some of you lived here before 1912 we accept the geographical term Makedonia with a word to testify origin or nation,
but we do not accept a same state with Greeks albanians turks serbs bulgarians lost ID maCedonians
My grand father's brother died for that, so I can speak my fathers language free with no fear,

the rest is just a provoke by some fyromians who want to push strange situations and another war in Balkans.
do you realize what will happened if Greece demands the land and fortunes of Greeks that lived in Fyrom with the Turkish pappers? (kitap)

you know the truth, the rest is a game for the big ones to sell guns,
if you have shares in a gun industry go ahead, but you live in sweden, so your child will not injured,
but what about my child? what about the kids of those you suppose are defending?
with cheap lies and tricks only cheap wins you get,

Who cares? Own point of views are not evidence or truth/reliable.

iapetoc
28-07-11, 02:42
Who cares? Own point of views are not evidence or truth/reliable.

you believe that your people will follow you?

you live in a rich country sweden and you believe that your fellows slavic-macedonians will follow you? pffffffff

Antigone
28-07-11, 07:10
Nah they won't. If he has immigrated to Sweden the people he thinks he is defending won't even recognise him as one of them anymore, he'll be considered a foreigner and they won't take any notice of his utterings.

I've seen it many times with immigrants, those who don't integrate with their new enviroment will ever live in the past of the country they left. Little realising that the place they cling to has already moved into the present and the future, forever leaving the immigrant behind and the immigrant will neither belong to one place or the other.

Dejavu's theories are illogical and don't make sense. If a language that uses loan words changes that country's genetic make-up then by that reasoning the English must surely be Greek, Italian and French? The French must be Italian and Greek too. Mmm I wonder if the French and English realise that they aren't really French and English at all!

iapetoc
28-07-11, 12:15
Nah they won't. If he has immigrated to Sweden the people he thinks he is defending won't even recognise him as one of them anymore, he'll be considered a foreigner and they won't take any notice of his utterings.

I've seen it many times with immigrants, those who don't integrate with their new enviroment will ever live in the past of the country they left. Little realising that the place they cling to has already moved into the present and the future, forever leaving the immigrant behind and the immigrant will neither belong to one place or the other.

Dejavu's theories are illogical and don't make sense. If a language that uses loan words changes that country's genetic make-up then by that reasoning the English must surely be Greek, Italian and French? The French must be Italian and Greek too. Mmm I wonder if the French and English realise that they aren't really French and English at all!


Antigone what loan words?
read my post #203
majority of these word are Greek, or international,
espeacially the names of fish? did turks in central asia had mediterenean fish to name them?
Greek words that turks borrow from Greek-Byzantine and return little change,
do you want me to check 1 by 1 all,
simply someone took a lexicon compare words with different meaning and posted, who knows Greek?
All non Greeks would believe him
Goebels theory,
'make a lie, but make it simple, and all will believe you',
do you know how many posts are in these forum based on that theory?

many,

and you prove the hoax, they tell you that you are a lunatic,
if there were not few Greeks here, these people would make a parade of false linguistic,

Check that

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26169-Berbers-and-Albanians-E-haplogroup-and-linguistic-similarity/page10&highlight=albanian+berber #234

that
this thread #203

and that
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26144-R1b-in-Europe-origins-mostly-from-Phrygians-and-Galatians/page2 #23
given link
http://arberiaonline.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=626


all these 3 have same signature ZEUS10
Zeus 10 I will not give connections,
but if you search lives in Usa Australia Albania Fyrom Sweden etc
He is a well known clown who works to make such lies
changes linguistic words, meanings and etc,
so a none Greek speaker may believe that Greek language is not from ancient Greek,
the same tank where dejavu gets his information,
An industry of Mud

Antigone
29-07-11, 07:40
I wasn't talking about the Greek language iapetoc, I was attempting to apply dejavu's assertion (that language proves the genetic makeup of the people) to other languages like English and French. And (very clumsily obviously) making the point that using language as a proof of genetics is very stupid.

IF dejavu believes his own theory, which I doubt, then he must apply the same to all languages. Including his own.

AndronikD
02-08-11, 11:17
pff

the liar now wants to go above,

read #203
I will give you that pleasure,

your linguistic prove that Greeks are turkish just went caboom in #203,

again you have been proved that you are deceived by a cheap not sciefintic prove,

End of Discuss, you just copy paste whatever you find in serious forum
you are not a serious.

Well in fact you didn't. In order for anything to went caboom you need more thorough research in paleolinguistics and etymology of the greek language. Well, having said that, you will find it difficult to point me to works that argument the placement of Greek in IE languages. I am really curious for you to point me to such works, of course serious works that don't repeat the common mantra that Greek is a separate branch of IE languages. What is the meaning of that statement anyway?

AndronikD
02-08-11, 11:23
Dejavu's theories are illogical and don't make sense. If a language that uses loan words changes that country's genetic make-up then by that reasoning the English must surely be Greek, Italian and French? The French must be Italian and Greek too. Mmm I wonder if the French and English realise that they aren't really French and English at all!

The argument is quite the opposite. Genetic makeup probably speaks of languages. Loan words are just loan words. Otherwise the English were to be French by now. Even the forced languages are just that. Otherwise Macedonians who still speak Macedonian in Greece were to be Greeks by now (well most of the are nominally I must admit) ;)

By the way happy holiday to all Macedonians!
Ilinden is truly a holy day for us.

brittney.smith
21-07-19, 11:30
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