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Maciamo
22-05-08, 00:36
All languages have their particularities. Each language evolves along with its culture and environment. That's why some cultural expressions are untranslatable in languages of very different cultures (e.g. the Japanese politeness system has no equivalent in English).

What I don't understand is how everyday words which once existed in a language could simply disappear after a few centuries. This seems to have occured a lot in French. Indeed, many words with Latin roots found in English and Italian can't be found in French. Here is a short list of those springing to mind.

For example, French did not inherit the Latin words cancel (<i>cancellare</i> in Italian) and rescind (<i>rescindere</i> in Italian). The words nullify and void are derived from (medieval) French but don't exist in modern French.

English and Italian words with Latin roots that don't exist in French

English / Italian / French

- cancel / cancellare / --- (from Latin cancellare ; English via Old French canceler, which disappeared in modern French)

- casual / casuale / --- (note that the meaning of the English, the Italian and the original Latin word casualis are all different. However, the word casuel just doesn't exist in French, whatever its meaning).

- causal / causale / --- (the French word "causal" doesn't exist, although causalité does).

- collapse / collasso / --- (from Latin collapsus)

- conspicuous / cospicuo / --- (from Latin conspicuus)

- convenient / conveniente / --- (strangely missing in French, although the negative "inconvenient" does exist)

- involve / coinvolgere / --- (from Latin involvere)

- lemon / limone / --- (French only has the word citron, although the English comes from old French limon - itself derived from the Persian limun)

- mere / mero / --- (the only translation is "simple", which also exist in English and Italian)

- occur / occorere / --- (likewise, two different meanings, but derived from the common Latin root occurrere)

- obvious / ovvio / --- (from Latin obvius)

- picture / pittura / --- (meaning no identical in English and Italian)

- placate / placare / --- (the French "plaquer" has a different meaning and etymology)

- portentous / portentoso / --- (granted, not a very common word)

- pungent / pungente / --- (from Latin pungentem)

- rescind / rescindere / ---


English words with Latin roots that don't exist in French or Italian

- apology/apologize/apologetic (from Latin and Greek apologia)

- captious (from Latin captiosus via Middle French captieux)

- compel (from Latin compellere via Old French compellir)

- coruscate/coruscation (from Latin coruscare)

- deciduous (from Latin deciduus)

- decorous (from Latin decorus)

- demeanour (from Old French demener)

- endeavour (from Old French dever)

- flavour (from Latin flator via Old French flaour)

- fractious (derived from "fraction")

- fusty (from Latin fustis via Old French fusté)

- impel (from Latin impellere)

- nullify

- parlour (from Old French parleor)

- perfunctory

- perspiration

- predicament (from Latin prædicamentum)

- pregnant (from prægnantem, "with child")

- previous

- prior

- privacy (the French translation is "vie privée" but the meaning is narrower and it doesn't work in many cases)

- protrude (from Latin protrudere)

- rapture (from Latin raptus via Middle Latin raptura)

- ravenous (from Old French ravinos)

- revolve

- significance

- tremendous (from Latin tremendus)

- tremulous (from Latin tremulus)

- ubiquitous (from Latin ubiquitarius)

- venison (from Old French venesoun)

- void

In some cases, English has taken two variants of Latin spellings, while French and Italian have only kept one.

- obedience, obeisance
- regime, regimen
- signification, significance

Escort Geneva
14-06-10, 17:52
Perfect! I am trying to learn basic French. This post will really help a lot. I have this site bookmarked and will definitely check back for other post with same topic. Thanks a lot!

denaria
03-08-10, 23:24
M R Harper posits that Latin is a synthetic language and not the root of the Romance languages. He points out that Latin has a neuter gender, unlike any Romance language (that I know of anyway), and that Latin declines nouns - and again I know of no Romance language that does that either. German however does both. On the other hand, German shares very few words with Latin. But English shares a lot of words with Latin, has a neuter gender and has the remnants of noun declension (John's meaning of John.) So is, in fact, English the root of Latin?

luke1249
27-08-10, 16:04
English used to have three genders, too (which is why we continue to call babies "it"), but the stage of English known as Old English emerged when Scandinavian tribes invaded the island (at that time a generally Celtic place) and stayed. This was about a thousand years after the stage of Latin known as classical Latin emerged.

Anyone saying that Latin isn't the root of the Romance languages has a screw loose.

Sybilla
01-02-11, 23:36
English words with Latin roots that don't exist in French or Italian

- apology/apologize/apologetic (from Latin and Greek apologia)

- captious (from Latin captiosus via Middle French captieux)

- compel (from Latin compellere via Old French compellir)

- coruscate/coruscation (from Latin coruscare)

- deciduous (from Latin deciduus)

- decorous (from Latin decorus)

- demeanour (from Old French demener)

- endeavour (from Old French dever)

- flavour (from Latin flator via Old French flaour)

- fractious (derived from "fraction")

- fusty (from Latin fustis via Old French fusté)

- impel (from Latin impellere)

- nullify

- parlour (from Old French parleor)

- perfunctory

- perspiration

- predicament (from Latin prædicamentum)

- pregnant (from prægnantem, "with child")

- previous

- prior

- privacy (the French translation is "vie privée" but the meaning is narrower and it doesn't work in many cases)

- protrude (from Latin protrudere)

- rapture (from Latin raptus via Middle Latin raptura)

- ravenous (from Old French ravinos)

- revolve

- significance

- tremendous (from Latin tremendus)

- tremulous (from Latin tremulus)

- ubiquitous (from Latin ubiquitarius)

- venison (from Old French venesoun)

- void



Their Italian correspectives actually exist and are:
apologia, capzioso, decoroso, frazione, impellente, nullificare, predica, pregno, privato, ratto, significato, tremulo, tremendo, vuoto.:innocent:

Maciamo
02-02-11, 09:35
Their Italian correspectives actually exist and are:
apologia, capzioso, decoroso, frazione, impellente, nullificare, predica, pregno, privato, ratto, significato, tremulo, tremendo, vuoto.:innocent:

Thanks for your feedback. You are right for some of them, but not all. I will move them under the page English & Italian words missing in French (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/latin_words_missing_in_french.shtml).

However, frazione means 'fraction' not the adjective 'fractious' (meaning irritabile, stizzoso).

Likewise, privato (or privé in French) means 'private', but there is no noun in Italian or French equivalent to 'privacy' (you can't say privacia).

The Italian predica means 'predicate', not 'predicament' (which means "difficult situation").

As for 'significance' and 'void', I listed them in the wrong section. What I meant is that English has given new nuances to these terms. significato and vuoto translate as 'meaning' and 'empty'. The nuance for 'significance' and 'void' cannot be conveyed by these words. For example, you can understand the meaning of a law but fail to grasp its significance for society. You can say that a contract has become void, but not that it is empty.

I was thinking of 'rapture' more in the sense of 'enraptured' (feeling of intense pleasure or joy), not in the sense of 'rape' or 'abduction'. I suppose I should place it in the list of words that acquired a new meaning in English.

Finally, I was under the impression that apologia in Italian meant 'apologia' in English (i.e. a formal written defence of one's opinions or conduct) and not 'apology'. Apology/apologize would be scuse/scusarsi. English has both words and different meanings for each.

julia90
22-02-11, 00:03
i have one:

To Delete from the Latin verb Delere.
althoght in italian we have the adjective Doloso; but we haven't a verb, with that beginning.

or maybe it's Dolere (to Hurt) in italian but it hasn't the same meaning of the english one.

I never was someone great in latin.. so maybe i'm wrong.

Melusine
23-02-11, 21:15
Laura50,

The English language is a West German language,( a member of Indo-European languages). So a good comparison would be to compare German to English words and meanings etc.

http://en.wikpedia.org/wiki/English_language


However, during the Norman/French invasion of England in 1066, many French/Latin words were introduced to the "English/Germanic" language.

Melusine

rufus
22-04-11, 09:14
M R Harper posits that Latin is a synthetic language and not the root of the Romance languages. Tulsa Travel (http://www.oklavision.tv/) He points out that Latin has a neuter gender, unlike any Romance language (that I know of anyway), and that Latin declines nouns - and again I know of no Romance language that does that either. German however does both. On the other hand, German shares very few words with Latin. But English shares a lot of words with Latin, has a neuter gender and has the remnants of noun declension (John's meaning of John.) So is, in fact, English the root of Latin?

Classical Latin does boast a lot about its title as the ‘true Latin’. This maintains a high prestige and is most often recognized as the simple Latin above the other dialects. These dialects are collected together under the Late or Vulgar Latin category that was extended later into the Romance Languages. Actually, Vulgar Latin standard never existed, for various pronunciations or vocabularies and the grammatical structures that were reformed in all other parts of the Empire.

Mr Pouncer
24-01-13, 12:45
Don't know if this thread is still active but the list on the front page links here.
On the front page list of Latin words existing in English but not in any Romance languages there's a number of errors: at a glance I see several words still extant in French: construire, exhilarant, ignition..

MOESAN
29-01-13, 16:31
the different forms of some latin roots in modenr english are not only an english process but the fact that english loaned latin words (most of them intellectual, abstract) with more archaic form after having incorporated 'oïl' french latin words having underwent a complete romance ("roman") phonetic evolution yet -

MOESAN
29-01-13, 16:35
'venison' = fr- 'venaison'
'prior' : nothing with this meaning but 'prieur' (clerical term of grade) - but 'priorité' < 'prior'