PDA

View Full Version : Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations



Pages : [1] 2

Maciamo
28-11-08, 23:50
Here is a summary of the current genetic knowledge regarding ancient ethnic groups. This is based on Y-chromosomal haplogroups (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#E) only.


The ancient Egyptians

Based on the modern population of Egypt, and removing the foreign elements, it is reasonable to assume that the Neolithic to Bronze Age Egyptians belonged primarily to haplogroups E1b1b, with minorities of G, R1b-V88 and T. There might have been some J1 too.

Nowadays perhaps as much as 30% of the Egyptian paternal lines could be descended from post-Bronze Age invaders, notably from the Arabic peninsula (hg J1-P58, 20% of the population), but also from Greece (more E1b1b + I2a, J2, R1b-L23, R1a) and Anatolia (mostly J2 and R1b-L23, with some R1a).

The ancient Persians

Iran has a highly heterogeneous populations when it comes to Y-DNA. Percentages vary greatly between East and West, and from North to South. Ancient Persia was less diverse, but still very mixed by ancient standards. Its ethnic composition prior to the Greek, Arabic and Mongol invasions was probably made of about 35% of haplogroup J (J1 being more predominant in the South and J2 in the North), 20% of hg R1a, 15% of hg G, 15% of hg R1b, 5% of hg L, and 10% of other haplogroups.

The ancient Babylonians

Babylonians in southern Mesopotamia belonged primarily to haplogroups J1, J2 and T, with a minority of E1b1b and G.

The ancient Assyrians

The Assyrians would have contrasted with their southern Babylonian neighbours by having much more J2 than J1 and a considerable amount of R1b-L23 (20 to 40%). They would also have had minorities of E1b1b, G and T lineages.

The ancient Sarmatians & Scythians

Descended from the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-Europeans, the Scythians would have belonged mostly to haplogroup R1a (probably more than 50% of the paternal lineages), which is the only Y-DNA haplogroup that has been found in various Iron Age Scythian remains in eastern Europe and Central Asia to date. It is very likely that the Scythians also possessed a substantial minority of R1b, and smaller percentages of G1, G2a3b1, J2a, J2b2, Q1b and T1a1a. The Sarmatians would have been essentially the same, perhaps without the G1 and Q1b and with some eastern European I2a1b and E-V13.

The ancient Slavs

Present-day Slavs are descended from Bronze Age Steppe cultures descended from the Corded Ware culture (including the Catacomb and Srubna cultures), associated with the R1a-M458 and R1a-Z280 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Slavic) people, as well as the Neolithic population of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (I2a1b-M423 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a1b)). Slavic Europeans belonged primarily to haplogroup R1a and I2. Southern Slavs descended from the Thracians, Dacians and Illyrians have a much higher proportion of I2a1b.

Eastern Europeans from the Danubian basin and the Balkans have also inherited a sizeable percentage of haplogroup E1b1b, G2a, J1, J2b and T from the expansion Neolithic farmers that started from northern Greece 7,000 years ago. These lineages survived at a higher frequency in non-Slavic populations of the Balkans, notably the Albanians, Romanians, Vlachs and Greeks.

The Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

According to ancient sources, the Thracians were a fusion of Proto-Indo-European Steppe people with the Neolithic inhabitants of the Carpathians (Cucuteni-Trypillian culture). As such they probably belonged to R1a (about 30%), R1b (10%), I2a1b (25-30%), E-V13 (10-15%), G2a, J1, J2a, J2b, and T1a. The Dacians were closely related to the Thracians and would have carried a similar mixture of haplogroups. The Illyrians have more mysterious origins, but judging from the modern haplogroup frequencies in the Dinaric Alps, they surely were predominantly a blend of R1a and I2a1b.

The ancient Greek & Romans

=> See post #3 below.

The ancient Celts

It is now believed that the ancient Celts were by a very large majority R1b people. Many subclades of R1b divide the various geographic groups of Celts. 2500 years ago, British and Irish Celts belonged mostly to the subclade R1b-L21. Celts from Iberia and south-west Gaul were R1b-DF27, while the other Gauls, from central France to southern Germany to northern Italy, belonged to R1b-U152. Further subgroups exist for all these clades (see Haplogroup R1b (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml)).

The ancient Germanic people

The four main haplogroups associated with Germanic people are I1, I2a2a (M223), R1a (mostly the L664, Z283 and Z284 subclades) and R1b (mostly U106, but also L238 and DF19). Here is more information on Germanic I1 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml#germanic), Germanic I2a2a (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a2a), Germanic R1a (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Germanic), and Germanic R1b (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S21-U106)

The ancient Indians

The Indo-Aryan people who invaded the Indian peninsula from Central Asia and Iran 3,500 years ago belonged mostly to haplogroups R1a-Z93 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Indo-Iranian), with a minority of G2a3b1, J2b2, R1b (both M269 and M73) and R2. This is known from the analysis of Y-DNA of the upper castes of Indian society (the Brahmins and the Kshatriyas), thought to be descended from the Indo-Aryans with minimal admixture on the paternal side. The native Dravidians belonged to the indigenous South Asian haplogroups C5, F, H and L.

The ancient Chinese

Haplogroup O is associated with the Han ethnicity, as well as most of the people of East Asia and Polynesia. Nowadays O3 is the most common in northern China while O1 dominates in southern China.

The ancient Japanese

Modern Japanese people are composed of two ancient ethnicities : the Yayoi people, who migrated from the Korean peninsula about 2,300 years ago, bringing with them agriculture; and the Jomon people, the hunter-gathers who had lived on the archipelago for millennia before that. The Yayoi were hg O people (mostly O2b and O3), like the northern Chinese and the Koreans. The Jomon belonged mostly to the rare haplogroup D (also found in Tibet and in the Andamans, some of the most isolated places on Earth), essentially the uniquely Japanese D2, but also a minority of C1 (also unique to Japan) and East Siberian C3. For more information see The Origin of Japanese people (http://www.wa-pedia.com/history/origins_japanese_people.shtml).

The ancient Americans

Be them nomadic tribes from North America, Aztecs, Mayas, Quechuas or cannibals from Amazonia, almost all native Americans belonged to haplogroup Q1a3a, but a minority of hg C existed in North America.

Mycernius
30-11-08, 00:43
Just as I was looking for something like this you put up a post about it. There is a baka on Jref who seems to think that ancient Israelites are responsible for Buddhism amoung other starnge and weird ideas. His evidence is scripture. I mentioned DNA doesn't hold any of his shite to be true and he asked for sources. I put up two links, but this is an excellent link. Cheers:cool:

Maciamo
18-04-09, 22:30
A little update based on new information.

All haplogroups I are the indigenous people of Europe, the direct descendants of Cro-Magnon (it isn't R1b as previously thought). This is why I is found everywhere in Europe at low frequencies, except I1 which remained strong in Germanic countries. A pocket of I2a1a (M26) survived in Sardinia because of it's relative isolation. I2a1b (M423) seems to have adopted agriculture early on around the Carpathians and is thought to have migrated to the Dinaric Alps around 1000 BCE with the Illyrians, where it survives in over 50% of male lineages in most of Bosnia and Croatia.

Ancient Greeks

The Pelasgians (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I2, E1b1b, T and G2a. E-V13 and T probably arrived in Greece from the Levant (and ultimately from Egypt, hence the small percentage of T) in the early Neolithic, 8,500 years ago. G2a came from the Levant was picked up in Anatolia along the way by Levantine farmers and herders.

Minoan Greeks migrated from Mesopotamia via Anatolia. They were mostly J2 people, but probably had some E1b1b too.

Mycenaean Greeks arrived around 3,600 years ago from the Pontic steppes via the Balkans. They were an Indo-European people belonging to R1b-L23 and/or R1a. The Thracians, who emerged as a blend of Indo-European R1a and Neolithic I2a1b, are also responsible for the higher density of I2a1b and R1a in northern Greece.

Greece was invaded by the Dorians around 1200 BCE. Nobody knows who they were or where they came from, but the high percentage of R1b in the regions where they settled (Peloponese, Crete) strongly suggest that they were R1b people. The events are linked to the Sea Peoples (see below), who were probably R1b people from the north-east of the Black Sea, or early Celts from central Europe.

Greek historians sometimes mention that the Dorians were the descendants of the Trojans who came back to avenge their ancestors. The Trojans were an Indo-European people related to the R1b Hittites (see below). This would also explain why there is about the same percentage of R1b and R1a in modern Greece. Each correspond to a different wave of Indo-European invader. They only make up 12% of the population (each) because the Neolithic farmers (especially E1b1b) were already well-established and numerous by that time.

Ancient Anatolians

Southern Anatolia was colonised early by Neolithic farmers and herders from the Fertile Crescent (E1b1b, G2a, J1, J2, T).

The Indo-European invasions brought the Hittites (1750 BCE), the Lydians and Lycians (1450 BCE), Phrygians (1200 BE) and the Proto-Armenians (1200 BCE). All were probably predominantly R1b-L23, considering its high percentage in the regions they settled. R1b Indo-Europeans are thought to have originated on the north-eastern shores of the Black Sea, just north of the Caucasus. They could have invaded northern Anatolia by crossing the Caucasus, sailing across the sea, or going around via the steppes through the Bosphorus.

Later R1b were possibly (part of) the Sea Peoples that ravaged the ancient Near Eastern civilizations, from Greece to Egypt. Their advance military technology and sea-based culture make of them very good candidates.

The Cimmerians are probably the last wave of migration (around 700 BCE) from the Pontic Steppe. By that time the steppe would have been thoroughly overrun by R1a people, so that was probably the Cimmerians's main haplogroup. They are said to have be expelled from Anatolia and moved to Europe, where they joined the other R1b people. Germanic and Celtic people both claim (partial) Cimmerian ancestry.


Romans, Celts and Germans

Celtic, Italic and Germanic people are all descended from the same R1b-L11 stock. They split north of the Alps, in modern Germany. They also incorporated a sizeable minority of G2a3b1 and J2b2 lineages, especially the Celts and the Italics.

The Italic branch went south and mixed with the Terramare people who were I2a1a, G2a and E1b1b. Northern Italians have more Indo-European Celto-Italic blood, while southern Italian have more indigenous blood (the highest being Sardinia, then Basilicata).

The Germanic branch moved north and mixed with the indigenous I1 and I2a2 people, who had already mixed with R1a migrants from the Corded Ware (Battle Axe) culture. The new hybrid Germanic people retained the highest percentage of autochthonous haplogroup I.

Celtic people split in several groups : the Brythonic went to Britain and Ireland, the Gaulish to France, the Iberian to Spain and Portugal, and the Alpine remained around Austria, Switzerland, southern Germany, Eastern France and Belgium. All of them mixed with I2a1a, G2a and E1b1b people from the Megalithic cultures. The Alpine and Rhino-Danubian Celts also encountered I2a2 people.

It is likely that the language of the indigenous Europeans influenced the various Celtic, Italic and Germanic dialects. Germanic languages diverted the most from the original European R1b language because it assimilated a very large part of aborigines.

From about 700 BCE, the Etruscans settled around Tuscany and the Greeks in southern Italy. Etruscans probably came from western Anatolia or some Aegean islands, and brought mostly haplogroups E1b1b, G2a, J2 and R1b-L23 with them. The Greeks in Italy brought a similar admixture, but with a higher proportion of E1b1b. The Romans progressively absorbed the Etruscans and Italian Greeks and mixed with them. By the time of Julius Caesar Roman citizens were probably composed of 45% of R1b, 20% of J, 15% of E1b1b, 15% of G2a and 5% of I2a1.

Maciamo
20-04-09, 21:42
The Phoenicians

The unique colonization pattern of the Phoenicians and the isolation of some of their colonies (Ibiza, Sardinia, Malta) have made it easy to identify their genetic signature. The Phoenician population was already very mixed 3000 years ago : E-V22, J1, J2, J2a4b, J2a4b1, G2a, R1a and R1b1a. E-V22 and R1b1a are quite specific to Levantines (Syrians, Lebanese, Druzes, Jews, Palestinians).

Maciamo
24-04-09, 11:50
The Hungarians

Modern Hungarians are virtually undistinguishable from their Austrian and Slovak neighbours in terms of Y-chromosome haplogroups.

But Hungary is a notoriously difficult country for Y-DNA proportions. Percentages tend to vary widely from one study to another, depending on the regional populations sampled. Some studies have found over 60% of R1a in Hungary, although the average if half that figure. Some villages have a small percentage of CentralNorth Asian haplogroups N, Q or C, but they are otherwise quite rare. Interestingly neighbouring countries like Austria, Slovakia and Ukraine appear to have more C, Q and N than Hungary.

Hungary has a peculiar history due to its geography - a vast plain surrounded by mountains on every side (the Alps and the Carpathians). In Neolithic times, it was at the centre of the Danubian cultures, which was composed of E-V13 farmers from Thessaly and I2 hunter-gatherers (soon converted to farming). Then came the Slavic invasion (around 3,000 BCE), followed by the Proto-Italo-Celts and Alpine Celts (2,000 BCE to 200 BCE), who brought respectively R1a and R1b to the region.

Hungary was named after the Huns, who invaded Europe from 370 CE and partly settled in the Pannonian plain (now known as Hungarian plain). It isn't sure where the Huns came from, but it is generally believed that they descended from the Xiongnu peoples of Mongolia. They were a confederation and included various ethnic group under Hunnic leadership. It is likely that there were many R1a peoples (e.g. Scythians) from the Eurasian Steppe. The Huns themselves may have been an admixture of haplogroup Q and C. However less than 2% of the modern population belong to Q and C combined.

The next invaders were the Magyar, a Finno-Ugric people who arrived in Europe in the 9th century, and settled in Hungary in the 10th. Hungarian language is actually a descendant of Magyar, not Hunnic, despite the misleading name in "Hun-". The Magyar came from Central Asia, and are related to the modern Bashkirs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashkirs) of Russia. Modern Bashkirs have about 35% of haplogroup R1b1b2, 26% of R1a, 17% of N1c and 13% of R1b1b1. However, they were conquered by the Mongols, which may account for all the haplogroup C. In fact, the presence of C in Europe is usually attributed exclusively to the Mongols, and C is almost non-existent in Hungary anyway.

A study (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/01/magyars-and-madjars.html) compared the Y-chromosome of the Madjar tribe from Kazakhstan to the Magyars of Hungary, and found that some G lineages were related. The article doesn't specify the subcalde, but G1 is the dominant strain in Kazakhstan, and is also found in Hungary (but normally not elsewhere in Europe).

Another study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18373723) compared the Y-DNA of Hungarians with other Finno-Ugric-speaking populations in order to understand why modern Hungarians have so little of the typical Uralic haplogroup N1c. They tested a few individuals from a 10th-century cemetery found out that half of the individuals belonged to N1c. The sample was small, and maybe "pure" Magyar, but it nonetheless suggests that the original Magyar had much more N1c than modern Hungarians.

The Magyar population is thought to have suffered considerably from the 13th-century Mongol invasion of Europe, and from the 16th-century war against the Ottomans. Hungary was repopulated in great number by ethnic Germans/Austrians, which explains why modern Hungary is closest to Austria for its Y-DNA composition.

From all this can be deduced that the original Magyars were an admixture of N1c and R1a (predominant), with some G1, and maybe some R1b.

As haplogroup Q is neither associated with the Magyars not with the Mongols, it must be either be of Hunnic origin, or from other Asian tribes part of the various invaders from the steppes.

Denis B
02-05-09, 16:53
The Magyar came from Central Asia, and are related to the modern Bashkirs of Russia. Modern Bashkirs have about 38% of haplogroup C, 27% of R1a, 18% of N1c and 13% of R1b. However, they were conquered by the Mongols, which may account for all the haplogroup C. In fact, the presence of C in Europe is usually attributed exclusively to the Mongols, and C is almost non-existent in Hungary anyway.
You are mistaken.
According to paper by Russian geneticists - "Structure of gene pool of Bashkir subpopulations"
Bashkirs have (N=471)
47% R1b (35% R1b1b2, 13% R1b1b1)
26% R1a1
17% N1c
C haplogroup occurs in only 2.3% of Bashkir sample.

Maciamo
03-05-09, 14:46
You are mistaken.
According to paper by Russian geneticists - "Structure of gene pool of Bashkir subpopulations"
Bashkirs have (N=471)
47% R1b (35% R1b1b2, 13% R1b1b1)
26% R1a1
17% N1c
C haplogroup occurs in only 2.3% of Bashkir sample.

Sorry I mistook while copying my sources. Thanks for pointing that out.

By the way, there are significant differences in haplogroup frequencies between subpopulations of Bashkirs. This indicate that each could have a different origin.

I managed to find the original study by Lobov et al. (http://www.anrb.ru/molgen/Lobov_AS.PDF) (in Russian only). Indeed the percentages vary widely according to the subpopulation. the Bashkirs total is 17% of N1c, 26% of R1a, 13% of R1b1b1, 35% of R1b1b2.

R1b1b2 (M269) is much more common the Baymaksky district of Bashkortostan (81%) and the Perm region (84%), but otherwise osciliates between 7% and 23%.

R1b1b1 (M73) reaches an amazing 55% in the Abzelilovsky district, but otherwise does not exceed 2%.

N1c is very high in East Orenburg (65%) and Sterlibashevsky (54%), moderate in Samara & Saratov (20%) and low elsewhere (3% to 7%).

Samara & Saratov is the only Bashkir region with a reasonable amount of haplogroup C (17%) and O (6%).

But overall it is R1a that is the most common, reaching 38% in Sterlibashevsky district, 40% in West Orenburg, and 48% in Saratov & Samara.

ordinary_guy
20-05-09, 12:28
You did not mention the Avars. Their khaganane was centered in and around the present-day Hungarian city of Debrecen and their presence in the Carpathian Basin lasted several centuries until 800 AD. The presence of the Huns, even when compared with that of Avars, was insignificant in terms of the time spent there. Also, you mention Hungary as the name that originates from the name Hun. The territory was called Pannonia since the Roman times and long after the fall of the empire. The name Hungary is much younger and comes from the word On Ogur the Bulgarians gave to the 10 (?) Asian tribes that invaded the Carpathian Basin in 896 AD. As for the Mongol invasion of 1242, it lasted only 1 or 2 years, which is too short, in my opinion, to leave any genetic trace in the population, though I agree that the country, especially the plains (probably inhabited by the Magyars) was almost depopulated. The highlands (Romania, Slovakia) offered better refuge to the locals (Vlachs, Slavs), so their population was largely preserved.

Maciamo
22-05-09, 20:06
The Avars were steppe people from Central Asia, so they must have been predominantly R1a, with maybe some J2, R1b and/or C3.

JackMack
28-05-09, 23:26
A little update based on new information.

All haplogroups I are the indigenous people of Europe, the direct descendants of Cro-Magnon (it isn't R1b as previously thought). This is why I is found everywhere in Europe at low frequencies, except I1 which remained strong in Germanic countries. A pocket of I2a2 survived around Croatia because of it's relative isolation, outside the Danubian corridor used by new waves of immigrants/invaders. I2a1 survived at high frequency in Sardinia simply because it is the most isolated place in Europe.

Ancient Greeks

Pelasgians (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I, E-V13, T and G2a. E-V13 and T probably arrived in Greece from the Levant (and ultimately from Egypt, hence the small percentage of T) in the early Neolithic, 8,500 years ago. G2a came from the Caucasus approximately 6,000 years ago as herders of sheep and goats (and early miners ?).

Minoan Greeks migrated from Mesopotamia via Anatolia. They were mostly J2 people, but probably had some E too.

Mycenaean Greeks arrived around 3,600 years ago from the Ukrainian steppes. They were an Indo-European people belonging to R1a. So were the Macedonians and the Thracians (hence the higher density of R1a in northern Greece).

Greece was invaded by the Dorians around 1200 BCE. Nobody knows who they were or where they came from, but the high percentage of R1b in the regions where they settled (Peloponese, Crete) strongly suggest that they were R1b people. The events are linked to the Sea Peoples (see below), who were probably R1b people from the north-east of the Black Sea, or early Celts from central Europe.

Greek historians sometimes mention that the Dorians were the descendants of the Trojans who came back to avenge their ancestors. The Trojans were an Indo-European people related to the R1b Hittites (see below). This would also explain why there is about the same percentage of R1b and R1a in modern Greece. Each correspond to a different wave of Indo-European invader. They only make up 12% of the population (each) because the Neolithic farmers (especially E and J2) were already well-established and numerous by that time.

Ancient Anatolians

Southern Anatolia was colonised early by Neolithic farmers from the Near East (E + J2).

The Indo-European invasions brought the Hittites (1750 BCE), the Lydians and Lycians (1450 BCE) and the Proto-Armenians (1200 BCE). All were probably R1b, considering the high percentage of R1b in the regions they settled. R1b Indo-Europeans are thought to have originated on the north-eastern shores of the Black Sea, just north of the Caucasus. They could have invaded northern Anatolia by crossing the Caucasus, sailing across the sea, or going around via the steppes through the Bosphorus.

Later R1b were possibly (part of) the Sea Peoples that ravaged the ancient Near Eastern civilizations, from Greece to Egypt. Their advance military technology and sea-based culture make of them very good candidates.

The Phrygians arrived in northern Anatolia after 1200 BCE, and were probably an offshoot from the Thracians (so R1a).

The Cimmerians are probably the last wave of migration (around 700 BCE) from the R1b homeland. They are said to have be expelled from Anatolia and moved to Europe, where they joined the other R1b people. Germanic and Celtic people both claim (partial) Cimmerian ancestry.


Romans, Celts and Germans

Celtic, Italic and Germanic people are all descended from the same R1b1b2 stock. They split north of the Alps.

The Italic branch went south and mixed with the Terramare people who were I2a, G2a and E-V13. Northern Italians have more Indo-European Celto-Italic blood, while southern Italian have more indigenous blood (the highest being Sardinia, then Basilicata).

The Germanic branch moved north and mixed with the indigenous I1 and I2b people, who had already mixed with R1a migrants from the Corded Ware (Battle Axe) culture. The new hybrid Germanic people retained the highest percentage of aboriginal haplogroup I.

Celtic people split in several groups : the Brythonic went to Britain and Ireland, the Gaulish to France, the Iberian to Spain and Portugal, and the Alpine remained around Austria, Switzerland, southern Germany, Eastern France and Belgium. The Iberian and Gaulish groups mixed with I2b, I2a and E people, the Alpine with I2b and E, and the Brythonic just with I2b people.

It is likely that the language of the aboriginal Europeans influenced the various Celtic, Italic and Germanic dialects. Germanic languages diverted the most from the original European R1b language because it assimilated a very large part of aborigines.

From about 700 BCE, the Etruscans settled around Tuscany and the Greeks in southern Italy. Etruscans probably came from Palestine and brought haplogroups J1, J2 and E with them. The Greeks in Italy were Doric and brought J2, E, G2a and probably more R1b (see above). The Romans progressively absorbed the Etruscans and Italian Greeks and mixed with them. By the time of Julius Caesar Roman citizens were probably composed of 45% of R1b, 20% of J, 15% of E, 15% of G2a and 5% of I2a.

This was extremely informative and very helpful.:grin:

Maciamo
06-07-09, 23:52
The ancient Basques

Although modern Basques belong predominantly to haplogroup R1b with a minority of I2a, there is little alternative but to suppose that Neolithic Basques were I2a, prior to the Indo-European invasions (that brought R1b). Modern Basque would have retained a lot of ancient autosomal characteristics through female lineages. Modern Basque have dark hair and eyes, and it is probable that ancient I2 people from continental Europe were also dark-haired and dark-eyed, although with fairer skin that their closest cousins, the Near/Middle Eastern J2 and J1.

Ancient mtDNA indeed indicate that prehistoric Basques were closer to modern Near Easterners (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/03/prehistoric-basques-were-closer-to.html).

JackMack
26-08-09, 22:25
The ancient Basques

Although modern Basques belong predominantly to haplogroup R1b with a minority of I2a, there is little alternative but to suppose that Neolithic Basques were I2a, prior to the Indo-European invasions (that brought R1b). Modern Basque would have retained a lot of ancient autosomal characteristics through female lineages. Modern Basque have dark hair and eyes, and it is probable that ancient I2 people from continental Europe were also dark-haired and dark-eyed, although with fairer skin that their closest cousins, the Near/Middle Eastern J2 and J1.

Ancient mtDNA indeed indicate that prehistoric Basques were closer to modern Near Easterners (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/03/prehistoric-basques-were-closer-to.html).

Just out of curiosity, can you give us the links to the scientific papers that will verify your suppositions about color in these people?

Maciamo
27-08-09, 09:59
Just out of curiosity, can you give us the links to the scientific papers that will verify your suppositions about color in these people?

It is my own supposition based my knowledge of the modern Basque people. That's why I said "it is probable". If DNA had been conducted on the ancient, pre-Indo-European Basques proving that they indeed had dark hair and eyes, I would have said "it has been proved". I cannot see how they would have fair hair or eyes before the R1b Indo-European invasion.

Arahari
30-08-09, 14:07
The ancient Egyptians

Based on the modern population of Egypt, and removing the foreign elements, it is reasonable to assume that the ancient Egyptians belonged primarily to haplogroups E1b1b and T. Nowadays about half of the Egyptian paternal lines could be descended from invaders, notably from the Arabic peninsula (hg J1, about 1/3 of the population), but also from Greece, Anatolia and Persia.

The ancient Persians

Iran has a heterogeneous populations when it comes to Y-DNA. Percentages vary greatly between East and West, and from North to South. Ancient Persia was less diverse, but still very mixed by ancient standards. Its ethnic composition prior to the Greek, Arabic and Mongol invasions was probably made of about 40% of haplogroup J (J1 being more predominant in the South and J2 in the North), 25% of hg R1a, 15% of hg F (possibly including G's), 10% of hg G and 10% of hg H, I, K and L.

The ancient Babylonians

Babylonians and Assyrians belonged mostly to haplogroup J (mostly J2, but with some J1 in southern Mesopotamia) with a minority of E1b1b, G and K. Haplogroup G is more common around the Caucasus.

The ancient Greek & Romanss

=> See post #3 below.

The ancient Celts

It is now believed that the ancient Celts were by a very large majority R1b people. Many subclades of R1b divide the various geographic groups of Celts. 2500 years ago, British and Irish Celts belonged mostly to the subclade R1b-L21. Celts from Iberia and south-west Gaul were R1b-M167, while the other Gauls, from central France to southern Germany to northern Italy, belonged to R1b-U152. Further subgroups exist for all these clades

The ancient Germanic people

The three main haplogroups associated with Germanic people are I1, I2b1 and R1b-U106. The latter is an old pre-Celtic branch of R1b mostly found around Frisia. These people are thought to have mixed with I1 people to form the ancient Germanic culture. In Scandinavia R1a is also quite common, although its presence could have predated a Germanic expansion from northern Germany, Denmark and southern Sweden.

The ancient Slavs

Present-day Eastern Slavs are descended from the ancient Kurgan culture of the Eurasian steppes. The Scythians were the branch of R1a that remained in the steppes of from whom modern Russians are descended (along with other haplogroups). Slavic Europeans belonged to haplogroup R1a and I2. Southern Slavs have a much higher proportion of I2 (notably in the Croatia).

Eastern Europeans from the Danubian basin and the Balkans have also inherited a sizeable percentage of haplogroup E (and some G and T) from the expansion Neolithic farmers that started from northern Greece 7,000 years ago (Linear Pottery culture).

The ancient Indians

The Indo-Aryan people who invaded the Indian peninsula from Central Asia and Iran 3,500 years ago belonged mostly to haplogroups R1a, with also some R2 and J2. This is known from the analysis of Y-DNA of the upper castes of Indian society (the Brahmins and the Kshatriyas), thought to be descended from the Indo-Aryans with minimal admixture on the paternal side. The native Dravidians belonged to the indigenous South Asian haplogroups F, H and L.

The ancient Chinese

Haplogroup O is associated with the Han ethnicity, as well as most of the people of East Asia and Polynesia. Nowadays O2a is the most common in northern China, and O1a in southern China.

The ancient Japanese

Modern Japanese people are composed of two ancient ethnicities : the Yayoi people, who migrated from the Korean peninsula about 2,300 years ago, bringing with them agriculture; and the Jomon people, the hunter-gathers who had lived on the archipelago for millennia before that. The Yayoi were hg O people, like the Chinese and Koreans. The Jomon belonged mostly to the rare haplogroup D (also found in Tibet and in the Andamans, some of the most isolated places on Earth). For more information see
The ancient Americans

Be them nomadic tribes from North America, Aztecs, Mayas, Quechuas or cannibals from Amazonia, almost all native Americans belonged to haplogroup Q1a3a, but a minority of hg C existed in North America.

I believe that it is a mistake, albeit a common one to assume one of two things:

1. That the haplogroups of the masses necessarily represents the founding element of the civilisation that they adhere to and:

2. That the present populations of certain civilisation areas genetically corelate to the original founding populations of the civilisations concerned.

Maciamo
30-08-09, 14:44
I believe that it is a mistake, albeit a common one to assume one of two things:

1. That the haplogroups of the masses necessarily represents the founding element of the civilisation that they adhere to and:

2. That the present populations of certain civilisation areas genetically corelate to the original founding populations of the civilisations concerned.

1. Let's see if I understand what you mean. Supposing that the Romans might have been predominantly R1b (just a supposition for the argument's sake), but surrounded by I2, G2a, J2 and E1b1b people. You would consider that the "founding element of the Roman civilisation" is therefore R1b.

2. I have already pruned haplogroups representing later migrations. But it's true that the percentage can vary over time even without migrations.

In some periods of history the ruling class had more children (kings could father hundreds of children through concubines) and more of them survived into adulthood because they had more food and lived in better conditions. In other periods of history, the poor had more children (like now, because they are less concerned about their career and comfort level). Some regions might suffer serious epidemics that might wipe out a big part of the population. All these factors can change the haplogroup frequency of a region over the centuries. Furthermore, some haplogroups may confer increased fertility, or be associated with azoospermia.

JackMack
01-09-09, 18:27
1. Let's see if I understand what you mean. Supposing that the Romans might have been predominantly R1b (just a supposition for the argument's sake), but surrounded by I2, G2a, J2 and E1b1b people. You would consider that the "founding element of the Roman civilisation" is therefore R1b.

2. I have already pruned haplogroups representing later migrations. But it's true that the percentage can vary over time even without migrations.

In some periods of history the ruling class had more children (kings could father hundreds of children through concubines) and more of them survived into adulthood because they had more food and lived in better conditions. In other periods of history, the poor had more children (like now, because they are less concerned about their career and comfort level). Some regions might suffer serious epidemics that might wipe out a big part of the population. All these factors can change the haplogroup frequency of a region over the centuries. Furthermore, some haplogroups may confer increased fertility, or be associated with azoospermia.

Where is the proof that R1b contributed fair hair and eyes to Europe? Isn't R1b also closely linked to the Amerindians and others who have dark hair and eyes. Didn't blue eyes develop somewhere around the Baltic sea- not the area of introduction of R1b near the Black sea around Georgia and the Ukraine? How are the people of Italy's southern heel, Apulia for example, much lighter then most of central western Europe? They are nearly up to 50% blond according to the recent maps and I thought from your previous posts that they are really Greco-Roman and not Italo-celtic (as you put it- although I'm am still looking for proof of the term Italo-celtic) How did you come up with your beliefs since they are not based on fact?

Maciamo
02-09-09, 10:29
Where is the proof that R1b contributed fair hair and eyes to Europe? Isn't R1b also closely linked to the Amerindians and others who have dark hair and eyes. Didn't blue eyes develop somewhere around the Baltic sea- not the area of introduction of R1b near the Black sea around Georgia and the Ukraine? How are the people of Italy's southern heel, Apulia for example, much lighter then most of central western Europe? They are nearly up to 50% blond according to the recent maps and I thought from your previous posts that they are really Greco-Roman and not Italo-celtic (as you put it- although I'm am still looking for proof of the term Italo-celtic) How did you come up with your beliefs since they are not based on fact?

In what way is that related to what I wrote in the post you quoted or about this thread ? Please refrain to post off-topic comments. Each thread has its own discussion.

R1b isn't found in pre-Colombian Amerindians as far as is currently known. It is common in modern native Americans because Western European colonists killed a lot of native men in the 16th and 17th centuries and procreated with their women.

Manuel
05-09-09, 00:05
Can you indicate the publication(s) relating cromagnon to hp y I(s) ?
Thank you
Manuel Costa
<[email protected]>

Maciamo
05-09-09, 13:44
Can you indicate the publication(s) relating cromagnon to hp y I(s) ?


I am not sure if there is any scientific publication on the matter. Cro-Magnon have not been tested for Y-DNA yet, so nobody can be 100% sure.

Nevertheless, it is now widely accepted in the genetic genealogy community that haplogroup IJ or I are the only haplogroup that could be associated with Cro-Magnon, based on logical elimination and chronology. Logic combined to data analysis is a totally valid scientific argument. But scientists like to publish test results (often with poor analysis due to a blatant lack of historical and archeological background).

Here is why Paleolithic and Mesolithic European hunter-gatherers (aka Cro-Magnons) could not have belonged to other haplogroups than I.

Cro-Magnon arrived in Europe from the Middle East some 30,000 years ago.
Based on the ISOGG age estimates of Y-DNA haplogroups (=> chronology (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml)), only haplogroups P, IJ, G and E1b existed between North Africa and the Middle East at the time.

Haplogroup R1a and R1b did not develop until about 20,000 years ago, and it is also generally accepted that haplogroup R appeared in Central Asia, based on the presence of R2 exclusively in South Asia, R1a from Eastern Europe to South Asia, and the oldest subclades of R1b all in Central or Western Asia. Besides the chronology of R1b subclades in Europe clearly follow of East to West migration pattern, not West to East. (see R1b migration map (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml#R1b)).

So haplogroup R1a and R1b can be effectively ruled out as possible Cro-Magnon haplogroups.

Virtually all population geneticists agree that haplogroups E and J came to Europe via Greece with the spread of agriculture during the Neolithic period. Many also add haplogroup G, though the migration pattern was obviously different from E and J, as the pockets in mountain areas of southern Europe attest.

Haplogroup G is thought to have originated somewhere between the Caucasus and South Asia. Most Europeans belong to G2a, which is less than 10,000 years old. There is a higher genetic diversity of G is Central Asia than Europe. Furthermore haplogroup G is nearly absent from Scandinavia and North-East Europe, which would be a region where the hunter-gatherer descendants of Cro-Magnon would be most likely to survive in considerable number after the arrival of Near-Eastern agriculturalists.

So, unless Cro-Magnon belonged to some completely extinct Y-DNA haplogroup (quite unlikely), the best, and indeed only candidate is haplogroup I. I am convinced that several subclades of I disappeared over time. There might not have been just I1, I2a and I2b, but probably other extinct subclades too. Given the huge bottleneck apparent from the phylogeny of I1, there might have been a lot of pre-I1 subclades, probably pruned by regular waves of stronger glaciations reducing the I1 population to only a few male individuals.

RealIllyrian
28-09-09, 21:51
Maciamo, you make a very big mistake by calling Albanians Greeks, and trying to explain history as it is greek as you have been told.
hehehe...
Pellasgians were not greek.
may I recommend you to read teh constitution of 1827 of the greek nation and find out what it really is. May I also recommend you to read the accounts of travelers and authors who wrote on the people who populated what you call greece up to the 19th century maintaining their original ethnic name?
It is so funny to see that people who are obviously intellilgent at the same time are so ignorant simply because they undermine the oldest language in the region Albanian.
you really need to correct what you write. There is nothing Pellasgian about what you call greeks, as greek is not an ethnic term but a religious term.
Pellasgian means people of the land of water.
In Albanian: Pellg = body of water,
gia = land, thing, earth
and greek is derived from the Language of the pellasgian, and the funny thing about it is that it is Albanian (SHQIP) that is the langauge that is closest to theirs, the language which translates literally the so called greek and egyptian gods which people like you who call them greeks, think are god names.
you really need to understand history a little better and find out that it is precisely the albanians who are fully in sync with the results presented on this website as far as evolution of the balkans goes. You have no idea what greek is from what I can tell by reading your comments. Unless you call Albanians greeks, and that's a different story altogether.
Find out what greek means, and understand that the historical terms that you are using are highly inaccurate as portrayed in the past 2 centuries. I don't want to ruin the surprise and give it away.

RealIllyrian
28-09-09, 22:01
and the trojans dear friend were also pellasgians. the historical accounts support that fully.
Troy is also an Albanian word for which the modern word is TROJE, meaning "our land"

you really have no idea what ancient history really is do you?
You shouldn't write things you have no idea about for the sake of writing them dear friend. You might be thinking you are helping people understand, but while you are from a scientific point of view, historically you are bastardizing the facts simply because of your own ignorance to a language that perhaps you think is irrelevant.

I will give you two quotes:
Ernst Maximilian Lambertz: "The world will not know its true history until Albanians participate in its writing"

And Edith Durham" Empires came and went, and passed over the Albanian as does the water off a duck's back"

I will be more than happy to explain you a few things that will only make you understand even better the science that you are presenting through a historical and linguistics viewpoint that only supports what you are presenting, which you seem to have no idea about.

Maciamo
29-09-09, 11:01
Maciamo, you make a very big mistake by calling Albanians Greeks, and trying to explain history as it is greek as you have been told.
hehehe...
Pellasgians were not greek.

By definition, the Pelasgians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians) are the autochthonous (native) inhabitants of Mesolithic Greece. They did not speak Greek, but their language may have contributed to a few loan words in ancient Greek.



may I recommend you to read teh constitution of 1827 of the greek nation and find out what it really is.

You are talking about the modern definition of "Greek" as related to the Greek nation. I don't see how this relates to genetic studies on ancient populations. For example, the modern country of Iran is not composed entirely of people descended from Iranian-speaking tribes - far from it. The same is true for Greece. Modern Greece is a melting pot. The Pelasgians were first there (probably haplogroup I2), then came early farmers from the Near East (E1b1b and J2), herders from the Caucasus and Anatolia (G2), then the Mycenaeans (I would think R1a), the Dorians (possibly R1b) and others.

Ancient Greek language and religion is surely an admixture of all this, although the Indo-European component is stronger than the rest. I suppose that this is because the Mycenaeans and Dorians were the last invaders, whose language and culture eventually stuck, after some adaptation to local idiosyncrasies.



It is so funny to see that people who are obviously intellilgent at the same time are so ignorant simply because they undermine the oldest language in the region Albanian.

Undermine ? How ? Not much is known about the actual origins of Albanian language. Although officially classified as Indo-European, it is obviously a creole with one or several other languages. I would make sense that this was the language spoken by the Neolithic E-V13, J2b and G2a population.



you really need to correct what you write. There is nothing Pellasgian about what you call greeks, as greek is not an ethnic term but a religious term.

Greek is a religious term ? And what religion would that be ancient Greek polytheism or Greek Orthodox Christianity ? What about the Minoans ? Weren't they Greek at all ?



Pellasgian means people of the land of water.
In Albanian: Pellg = body of water,
gia = land, thing, earth

So what ?



you really need to understand history a little better and find out that it is precisely the albanians who are fully in sync with the results presented on this website as far as evolution of the balkans goes. You have no idea what greek is from what I can tell by reading your comments. Unless you call Albanians greeks, and that's a different story altogether.
Find out what greek means, and understand that the historical terms that you are using are highly inaccurate as portrayed in the past 2 centuries. I don't want to ruin the surprise and give it away.

It's funny to see that you think you know what "Greek" mean when your definition is narrower than Bill Clinton's definition of "sex".

Maciamo
29-09-09, 11:06
and the trojans dear friend were also pellasgians. the historical accounts support that fully.
Troy is also an Albanian word for which the modern word is TROJE, meaning "our land"

So you are basing your assertion simply on the presumed linguistic of the word Troy, which is, as you should know, a Greek word (Τροία), not a Trojan one.

The Trojans spoke Luwian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luwian_language), an Indo-European language closest to Hittite. The Hittite word for Troy is Wilusa.



you really have no idea what ancient history really is do you?

Were you addressing yourself ?



I will be more than happy to explain you a few things that will only make you understand even better the science that you are presenting through a historical and linguistics viewpoint that only supports what you are presenting, which you seem to have no idea about.

OK, go ahead. Let's have some fun.

Marianne
29-09-09, 17:21
and the trojans dear friend were also pellasgians. the historical accounts support that fully.
Troy is also an Albanian word for which the modern word is TROJE, meaning "our land"

you really have no idea what ancient history really is do you?
You shouldn't write things you have no idea about for the sake of writing them dear friend. You might be thinking you are helping people understand, but while you are from a scientific point of view, historically you are bastardizing the facts simply because of your own ignorance to a language that perhaps you think is irrelevant.

I will give you two quotes:
Ernst Maximilian Lambertz: "The world will not know its true history until Albanians participate in its writing"

And Edith Durham" Empires came and went, and passed over the Albanian as does the water off a duck's back"

I will be more than happy to explain you a few things that will only make you understand even better the science that you are presenting through a historical and linguistics viewpoint that only supports what you are presenting, which you seem to have no idea about.

(quote for both your posts)
Oh My God!

I would never expect to find in this forum the same Albanian Propaganda I read by all illiterate people of your nation again and again but I have to admit your posts make me (and everybody else with basic history knowledge) laugh.

All I ready by people who share your points of view is how every word in the universe derives from an Albanian one and how all that we know in this life is a result of the Albanian ancient knowledge... Get serious...

Please, there is no one here you will be able to convince with your views simply because people who post in this forum are people with a certain level of knowledge about European (and not only) history. So keep your propaganda for forums where members didn't manage to finish elementary school and might actually "buy" it...:laughing:

I won't even bother to counterattack your views because there is no point convincing brainwashed people...

Maciamo no matter what you tell him he will have something to reply so your efforts to prove him that he is wrong will go wasted...

Nicolas Peucelle
16-12-09, 01:54
Maciamo... you are THE Master..! Thank you for all these wonderful informations.

Mikewww
16-12-09, 02:24
The Phoenicians
The unique colonization pattern of the Phoenicians and the isolation of some of their colonies (Ibiza, Sardinia, Malta) have made it easy to identify their genetic signature. The Phoenician population was already very mixed 3000 years ago : E-V22, J1, J2, J2a4b, J2a4b1, G2a, R1a and R1b1a. E-V22 and R1b1a are quite specific to Levantines (Syrians, Lebanese, Druzes, Jews, Palestinians).
Are you intentionally excluding T? Although they are pretty much a low frequency anywhere they are, they are found in areas that were Phoenician colonies. Cadiz, Spain and Huelva have more T than most of western Europe. I'm just getting this from the National Genographic study of Lebanon and the claim they make that they have found varieties of J2 and T where Phoenicians resided.

Wilhelm
16-12-09, 02:59
Are you intentionally excluding T? Although they are pretty much a low frequency anywhere they are, they are found in areas that were Phoenician colonies. Cadiz, Spain and Huelva have more T than most of western Europe. I'm just getting this from the National Genographic study of Lebanon and the claim they make that they have found varieties of J2 and T where Phoenicians resided.
Do you have the Source for this claim ?

Maciamo
16-12-09, 13:24
Are you intentionally excluding T? Although they are pretty much a low frequency anywhere they are, they are found in areas that were Phoenician colonies. Cadiz, Spain and Huelva have more T than most of western Europe. I'm just getting this from the National Genographic study of Lebanon and the claim they make that they have found varieties of J2 and T where Phoenicians resided.

I should have included T. I just forgot.

iann_allein
02-01-10, 19:00
It is very interesting!
But i want to see your source!

Where is the source of this information??

This is your hypothesis?
:cool-v:

Maciamo
02-01-10, 20:53
It is very interesting!
But i want to see your source!

Where is the source of this information??

This is your hypothesis?
:cool-v:

There sources are too numerous to list here. It's based on hundreds of Y-DNA studies, almost everything I could find on the Internet + my knowledge of history.

iann_allein
02-01-10, 23:22
There sources are too numerous to list here. It's based on hundreds of Y-DNA studies, almost everything I could find on the Internet + my knowledge of history.


Are you a scientist?
Why do you answer all questions on this forum?
Maybe I'm curious, but I see that the information is different in Wikipedia.
Besides I do not know who you are?
I ask because there are some problems.

Why did Europedia call haplogroup E3b Greek, Near-Eastern , North-African?
This haplogroup was born in Africa, not Greece.
Ok There are subgroups of E which are born in Europe, however, haplogroup J2 was born in northern Mesopotamia, but Europedia called this haplogroup Greco-Roman, Anatolian,Mesopotamian.
Why?
Europedia should write Mesopotamian, Anatolian, Greco-Roman. No Greco-Roman, Anatolian,Mesopotamian.
Because Mesopotamian civilization was much older than the Anatolian Civilization or Greco-Roman civilization.

Wilhelm
03-01-10, 01:15
Are you a scientist?
Why do you answer all questions on this forum?
Maybe I'm curious, but I see that the information is different in Wikipedia.
Besides I do not know who you are?
I ask because there are some problems.

Why did Europedia call haplogroup E3b Greek, Near-Eastern , North-African?
This haplogroup was born in Africa, not Greece.
Ok There are subgroups of E which are born in Europe, however, haplogroup J2 was born in northern Mesopotamia, but Europedia called this haplogroup Greco-Roman, Anatolian,Mesopotamian.
Why?
Europedia should write Mesopotamian, Anatolian, Greco-Roman. No Greco-Roman, Anatolian,Mesopotamian.
Because Mesopotamian civilization was much older than the Anatolian Civilization or Greco-Roman civilization.
Because, the same way some E sub-haplogroups are born in Greece, also some subclades of J2 are born in Greece, for example J2b

Maciamo
03-01-10, 12:54
Are you a scientist?

Yes.



Why do you answer all questions on this forum?

Because there are many people who are interested in that subject, and because some other websites are not always reliable, especially those that rarely update their information or ask real questions, like the Genographic Project.




Why did Europedia call haplogroup E3b Greek, Near-Eastern , North-African?
This haplogroup was born in Africa, not Greece.

What's Europedia ? Nobody uses the term E3b anymore. It's over a year that it has been called E1b1b.



Ok There are subgroups of E which are born in Europe, however, haplogroup J2 was born in northern Mesopotamia, but Europedia called this haplogroup Greco-Roman, Anatolian,Mesopotamian.
Why?

Where did you see that ? Haplogroup E* is definitely African, but I don't know if it still exists. It has plenty of subclades through, like E-V13 which is almost confined to Europe and thought to have appeared (or first become widespread) in northern Greece about 8,000 years ago. Please understand that E is not the same as E1b1b, just like R is not the same as R1b. The deeper the subclade, the more specific it becomes. Besides, the main subclades of E1b1b found in Europe have their origins explained in this website's main article about the history of haplogroups (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#E). Anything you think is wrong ? Please share.




Europedia should write Mesopotamian, Anatolian, Greco-Roman. No Greco-Roman, Anatolian,Mesopotamian.
Because Mesopotamian civilization was much older than the Anatolian Civilization or Greco-Roman civilization.

Really doesn't matte to me. I wrote this in a geographic order, from west to east, not in a chronological order. Either way is fine. You could also list them alphabetically if you want.

iann_allein
03-01-10, 19:57
I can not find this map to show you. Sorry.
I hope to find this map .. it is on the internet ..


Europedia = eupedia>>> it is a mistake.



I understand that E is not the same as E1b1b,
but E1b1b is older than E-V13 that is why i want they to be in chronological order.

Ok



I see that you are not the author of this map.
Even if you are the author of this map, I can not find it to show you.



I'm sorry for my English

iann_allein
03-01-10, 20:14
I can not find this map to show you. Sorry.
I hope to find this map .. it is on the internet ..


Europedia = eupedia>>> it is a mistake.



I understand that E is not the same as E1b1b,
but E1b1b is older than E-V13 that is why i want they to be in chronological order.

Ok



I see that you are not the author of this map.
Even if you are the author of this map, I can not find it to show you.



I'm sorry for my English


i found this map but i ca not show it.




This is the link but I separated the letters in order to publish the address.
2qluxvl . p n g

LeBrok
03-01-10, 23:21
Nice map, and to my limited knowledge of haplogroups it looks fine. I like the colours used, and short, spot on, description where they come from (on top).
I mentioned the colours, because sometimes I have problems distinguishing yellow from light green, and few other combinations, in small chart circles. No problems here, almost like I picked the colours here, lol.

JPtoEurope
05-01-10, 01:11
Hello Maciano,

First, sorry for my bad english, I m french

You say:

The ancient Egyptians
Based on the modern population of Egypt, and removing the foreign elements, it is reasonable to assume that the ancient Egyptians belonged primarily to haplogroups E1b1b and T. Nowadays about half of the Egyptian paternal lines could be descended from invaders, notably from the Arabic peninsula (hg J1, about 1/3 of the population), but also from Greece, Anatolia and Persia.

You are sure ? You see E1b1b and T haplogroups for ancient Egyptians in the images below? Personally I see only N (mtDNA) and R, I (and maybe IJK, but read below)(Y-DNA)...

(replace ** by TT)
h**p://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4950/toutankamonetreine2h.jpg
h**p://img297.imageshack.us/img297/6118/tomberamsesi02m.jpg
h**p://img171.imageshack.us/img171/3167/scribe01384x512.jpg (yes its eyes are blue)
h**p://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2094/ramsesenemies04.jpg
h**p://img85.imageshack.us/img85/954/tomberamsesiu.jpg
h**p://img171.imageshack.us/img171/2575/nefertitit.jpg

Except, but later after the first Egyptians dynasties, a mix with Semitic people and the short black Nubian people dynasty.

And the Egyptians knew, too, to do the difference between them and their enemies...

h**p://img27.imageshack.us/img27/420/ramssenemies01.jpg
h**p://img502.imageshack.us/img502/3903/ramsesenemies02.jpg
h**p://img177.imageshack.us/img177/1364/toutankareposepied1a.jpg
h**p://img502.imageshack.us/img502/4254/toutankamonsandales2.jpg
h**p://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6228/toutankamoncoffre1a.jpg
h**p://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9044/toutankamoncoffre2rduit.jpg

Because you forget the most important parameter, it's that the presence to the white skin in the Mediterranean human people has necessarily been generated, at a time or more, by a North > South migration and that the population movements were not only and always from South > North migrations (as in all your maps). And IJK (Y-DNA) are the haplogroups downward to this North > South migrations...

Because the white skin (and light eyes too) is only generate by the light phenomenon (sun) more rare, and this phenomenon occurs only in Europe and Northern Eurasia... And these North > South population movements have necessarily been important to be able to change skin color and appearance (nose fine and right, face shape, etc.) in a important proportion to the "Fertile Crescent" (Anatolie, The Levant, Mesopotamia) and North Africa. Or maybe totally inundate the autochthon population (if indigenous people existed? before 12/10 000 years ago).

One of this South to North movements (maybe the laster and because surely there are several), dating surely to the last big cooler weather (but without ice cap) to 12000 years ago (last big cooler with ice cap date to 18 000 years ago).

All the more recent information about that, history to Europe and Fertile Crescent and aADN, in this serious site to a historian (with all the last scientist references/links) here
w.buildinghistory.org/distantpast (add "ww" before url)

Regards

JPtoEurope
05-01-10, 01:18
PS: I want say to the admin to this site (dont know if it's you)
that the politic to accept a url only after 15 posts is very not serious and very strange (in 10 years that I surf in the Web, it's the first time that I see that on a forum).

LeBrok
05-01-10, 06:18
Good points JPto.
I would like to add that if Cro Magnons picked white skin gene from Neanderthals it could have happened in Middle East. Can't point to the source now, but I remember reading article showing that both species cohabited caves around Israel area 50 thousand years ago. When Cro Magnon moved into Europe 35KYA they might have been already white or at least not very dark.
It would be nice one day to get genetic data in this regard and few others, even if it proves me wrong. :)

Maciamo
05-01-10, 13:22
Hello Maciano,
First, sorry for my bad english, I m french
You say:
You are sure ? You see E1b1b and T haplogroups for ancient Egyptians in the images below? Personally I see only N (mtDNA) and R, I (and maybe IJK, but read below)(Y-DNA)...

First of all this thread is only about Y-DNA, not mtdna. But just to correct you, mtDNA N arose about 70,000 years ago (have a look at the timeline (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml)), and we are talking about the ancient Egyptian civilisation, starting about 5,000 years ago. All the modern haplogroups and most subclades (both for mtDNA and Y-DNA) would have already existed from 5,000 to 2,000 years ago.

Y-haplogroups I and R are almost certainly two of those that, if present at all, were insignificant in the ancient Egyptian population.

Are you aware that the early Indo-Europeans (e.g. Pontic-Caspian Neolithic, the R1a and R1b "homeland") were mostly Proto-Europoids, meaning that they had mixed Europoid and Mongoloid traits (very broad, thick-boned faces, lower skulls). Ancient and modern Egyptians and Near Easterners on the contrary were/are gracile and narrow faced with high skulls. Whether you base your comparison on ancient skeletons or ancient depictions of Egyptians, it shows that the Egyptian and Levantine population almost haven't changed at all over time in this regard.



Because you forget the most important parameter, it's that the presence to the white skin in the Mediterranean human people has necessarily been generated, at a time or more, by a North > South migration and that the population movements were not only and always from South > North migrations (as in all your maps).

What makes you think that North Africans or Middle Easterners didn't have fair skin 5,000 years ago ? Fair skin is a polygenic trait (i.e. involving many genes). It has been estimated that the very first signs of skin colour becoming fairer happened sometimes between 50,000 and 20,000 years ago, so before most of the modern genes from the Middle East reached Europe. Europeans with pale skin have an additional mutation in the SLC24A5 gene, which has been estimated to have arisen between 6,000 and 12,000 years ago. Before there was no difference in skin colour between Europeans and Middle Easterners.

The first Cro-Magnons were probably dark-skinned, as opposed to white-skinned Neanderthals. Modern humans could have picke up a few genes for fair skin from Neanderthals, but whether this happened in Europe, the Middle-East or Central Asia is anyone's guess. It could have happened in the three regions. If it was only one, I would pick Central Asia, because this is where Y-haplogroups N, O, P, Q and R all came from, and white skin is present in all these populations (respectively, Siberians, East Asians, Central Asians, Native Americans and Europeans + some Middle Easterners and South Asians).



All the more recent information about that, history to Europe and Fertile Crescent and aADN, in this serious site to a historian (with all the last scientist references/links) here
w.buildinghistory.org/distantpast (add "ww" before url)
Regards

Thanks, but I know this site well (and its owner). You may have noticed that I explain a lot of these things on this site too, notably here (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml).

Maciamo
05-01-10, 13:24
PS: I want say to the admin to this site (dont know if it's you)
that the politic to accept a url only after 15 posts is very not serious and very strange (in 10 years that I surf in the Web, it's the first time that I see that on a forum).

This is because of spammers. That's one way of discouraging them, or at least make their spam ads useless until they get deleted.

Wilhelm
07-01-10, 06:43
It is my own supposition based my knowledge of the modern Basque people. That's why I said "it is probable". If DNA had been conducted on the ancient, pre-Indo-European Basques proving that they indeed had dark hair and eyes, I would have said "it has been proved". I cannot see how they would have fair hair or eyes before the R1b Indo-European invasion.
yes, they had fair hair before indo-europeans , although very minoritary. Also indicating that Basque people have only about 25% of indo-european admixture :

(13) Raza pirenaico-occidental o vasca: tipo racial surgido de la evolución local del hombre de Cromagnon. La antropología engloba el tipo vasco dentro de la raza caucásica. Sus características físicas son las siguientes:

Ortognatismo: perfil recto de la cara prescindiendo de la nariz. Dolicocéfalos con bóveda craneana baja (en Iparralde la dolicocefalia puede atenuarse, e incluso puede convertirse en braquicefalia por influencia del tipo alpino). Rino-prosapia: gran desarrollo vertical de la cara en relación a la longitud de la boca. Estrechez maxilar y mesocefalia: cara triangular con sienes abultadas. Orificio occipital oblicuo: el borde anterior se encuentra muy metido o hundido. Mandíbula inferior: más bien estrecha y la barbilla recogida. La cara es muy alta, así como la nariz, siendo esta última muy saliente y con perfil a menudo convexo. El cabello: predominan los morenos sobre los castaños, siendo los rubios o pelirrojos muy minoritarios y fruto del mestizaje. Los ojos: más bien pequeños, pero muy abiertos, predominando los castaños, garzos y azules, sobre negros, verdes y grises. Comunmente los de tipo vasco se distinguen de sus vecinos latinos por su mayorObjetos prerromanos encontrados en las ruinas de la civitas romana de Iruña-Veleia en la actual localidad de Iruña de Oka (Álava) estatura y corpulencia, a lo que ha de añadirse cierta tendencia a una coloración más clara de la tez.

http://www.kondaira.net/esp/THistoria.html#Indoeuroparrak


11) Investigaciones realizadas principalmente por Peter Forster, doctor en Biología y miembro destacado del Instituto McDonald, y sus colaboradores del laboratorio de genética molecular de este instituto. El estudio por otras universidades del ADN mitocondrial, así como el estudio del cromosoma Y (paterno) para realizar la misma investigación (en lugar del ADN mitocondrial), apunta hacia las mismas conclusiones.

A partir de esta época, probablemente, se comienza a desarrollar en la zona cantábrica y sur de Francia el grupo humano protovasco y su lengua, el protoeuskara, dando lugar a la civilización franco-cantábrica. Del 16.000 a.C. en adelante el clima comienza a ser más cálido y según las investigaciones de paleogenética, comienza la expansión de los protovascos, extendiendo su cultura, la magdaleniense, por la despoblada Europa. Una cultura cuya máxima expresión serían las pinturas rupestres con las que los protovascos Indumentaria de los protovascos en el magdalenienseornamentaron las cuevas europeas. La extensión y localización de la cultura magdaleniense en Europa, coincide exactamente con este estudio, asimismo los rasgos fonéticos y léxicos comunes con los vascos, encontrados en las tierras donde se extendió la antigua civilización franco-cantábrica (tercio norte peninsular y mitad sur de Francia) de esta época, parecen avalar también este estudio. Hace 10.000 años comenzó el deshielo de los glaciares escandinavos, lo que contribuyó a que los protovascos se extendieran también por esta zona.

Estas investigaciones genéticas llevadas a cabo para el conocimiento de la evolución humana en Europa, indican que tres cuartos de los europeos actuales proceden, por vía matrilineal, de una población europea del período preglacial y que están estrechamente emparentados con los vascos. Indicando también que el aporte genético no protovasco (indoeuropeo en su gran mayoría) supone, únicamente, el 25% del total.

JPtoEurope
07-01-10, 20:43
"Are you aware that the early Indo-Europeans (e.g. Pontic-Caspian Neolithic, the R1a and R1b "homeland") were mostly Proto-Europoids, meaning that they had mixed Europoid and Mongoloid traits (very broad, thick-boned faces, lower skulls)."Sorry, but I never read that in any serious sites. Only that the Asiatic flow (and gene) come to Est to West very later (last thousand years BC)... By example, this again explen in this page **w.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/migration.shtml (and of course cross-check by other reliable sources)
"...Studies of ancient DNA indicate the point at which East Asian peoples came to predominate over Western Eurasian in Central Asia. In Kazakhstan there were Western Eurasian lineages prior to the 7th century BC, followed by East Asian lineages appearing..."


"What makes you think that North Africans or Middle Easterners didn't have fair skin 5,000 years ago ? Fair skin is a polygenic trait (i.e. involving many genes). It has been estimated that the very first signs of skin colour becoming fairer happened sometimes between 50,000 and 20,000 years ago, so before most of the modern genes from the Middle East reached Europe. Europeans with pale skin have an additional mutation in the SLC24A5 gene, which has been estimated to have arisen between 6,000 and 12,000 years ago. Before there was no difference in skin colour between Europeans and Middle Easterners."30,000, 20,000, 12,000, 6,000 or 5,000... It's not very the problem about I speak. At any time that it is able of begin, even with a possible mix Cro-magnon with Neanderthal (besides, Neanderthal species is found mainly in Europe), "white skin" and similarly for the hair and eyes clear, is inevitably the result from a phenomenon of adaptation to northern climate. And this genetic result probably very in North for act so strongly on the genes, same if the ices were at the time closest in south Eurasia that currently... So, inevitably white skin genes comming of North toward Middle East and north africa... and in mass (of course compared to the population at the time). This climate existing only in Northern Eurasia close to the ice and cold climate...

bye

JPtoEurope
08-01-10, 03:58
PS:

The first "steppe peoples" in Eurasia are not Asiatics (racially speaking), but are the Europeans peoples (always racially speaking). The lasts representative of those Europeans peoples in the Eurasia steppes, are the Scythes. The first main people to have reversed this West > East flow in the Eurasia steppe in East > West flow, is a people interbreeding between Europeans and Asiatics... named the Turcs. And more recently and after 1400 years of Asiatics (turko-mongolians) domination in steppes, the flow is again reversed West to the East, for the Europeans, about the seventeenth century, with the Russian conquests, right down Pacific.

Neander
08-01-10, 04:32
I think Bell Beakers were mixed.

They belonged to haplogroups I2a, I2a1, I2b, and two neolithic haplogroups E-V13 and J2b.

All of these are the first miners in the Sardinia. We still can find these haplogroups in Sardinia, together with G haplogroup, which represents later miners, after collapse of first metallurgy in Europe.

But Bell Beakers were partially dinarics.

Which racial phenotype, by which haplogroup was brought into the invader peoples and then in the invaded countries?

Maybe J2b and E-V13 were dinarics as they are today in Montenegro, Albania, Kosovo and Greece. And I2* were dolichocephals.

Maciamo
08-01-10, 13:32
Sorry, but I never read that in any serious sites. Only that the Asiatic flow (and gene) come to Est to West very later (last thousand years BC)... By example, this again explen in this page **w.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/migration.shtml (and of course cross-check by other reliable sources)
...
PS:
The first "steppe peoples" in Eurasia are not Asiatics (racially speaking), but are the Europeans peoples (always racially speaking).

According to anthropologist David Anthony in his book The Horse, The Wheel, and Language (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0691058873?ie=UTF8&tag=eupedia-21&link_code=as3&camp=2506&creative=9298&creativeASIN=0691058873), steppe people of the Bug-Dniester and later Yamna culture were all low-skulled, very wide-faced Proto-Europoids (mixed European and Mongoloid traits). He also mentions that the early Yamna settlers in the Danube basin (3000-2600 BCE), in places like Bulgaria, Serbia and Hungary, were still the same Proto-Europoids, contrasting neatly with the gracile, high-skulled and narrow-faced people of "Old Europe".

David Anthony is a well-respected specialist of Indo-European archaeology. As he is first and foremost a professor of anthropology, there is no doubt he can recognise anthropological features from skeletons.


30,000, 20,000, 12,000, 6,000 or 5,000... It's not very the problem about I speak. At any time that it is able of begin, even with a possible mix Cro-magnon with Neanderthal (besides, Neanderthal species is found mainly in Europe), "white skin" and similarly for the hair and eyes clear, is inevitably the result from a phenomenon of adaptation to northern climate. And this genetic result probably very in North for act so strongly on the genes, same if the ices were at the time closest in south Eurasia that currently... So, inevitably white skin genes comming of North toward Middle East and north africa... and in mass (of course compared to the population at the time). This climate existing only in Northern Eurasia close to the ice and cold climate...

You forget that northern Europe was under a thick sheet of ice during the Ice Age, until 14,000 years ago. Only southern Europe was inhabitable, at roughly the same latitude as the Middle East and Central Asia. There is no reason to believe that fair pigmentation arose in Europe rather than in the Middle East or Central Asia. The northernmost inhabitable regions were actually in Central Asia, so it is more likely to have appeared over there. If fair skin first appeared in Europe, how did East Asians develop fair skin ?

Maciamo
08-01-10, 14:05
yes, they had fair hair before indo-europeans , although very minoritary. Also indicating that Basque people have only about 25% of indo-european admixture :

(13) Raza pirenaico-occidental o vasca: tipo racial surgido de la evolución local del hombre de Cromagnon. La antropología engloba el tipo vasco dentro de la raza caucásica. Sus características físicas son las siguientes:

Ortognatismo: perfil recto de la cara prescindiendo de la nariz. Dolicocéfalos con bóveda craneana baja (en Iparralde la dolicocefalia puede atenuarse, e incluso puede convertirse en braquicefalia por influencia del tipo alpino). Rino-prosapia: gran desarrollo vertical de la cara en relación a la longitud de la boca. Estrechez maxilar y mesocefalia: cara triangular con sienes abultadas. Orificio occipital oblicuo: el borde anterior se encuentra muy metido o hundido. Mandíbula inferior: más bien estrecha y la barbilla recogida. La cara es muy alta, así como la nariz, siendo esta última muy saliente y con perfil a menudo convexo. El cabello: predominan los morenos sobre los castaños, siendo los rubios o pelirrojos muy minoritarios y fruto del mestizaje. Los ojos: más bien pequeños, pero muy abiertos, predominando los castaños, garzos y azules, sobre negros, verdes y grises. Comunmente los de tipo vasco se distinguen de sus vecinos latinos por su mayorObjetos prerromanos encontrados en las ruinas de la civitas romana de Iruña-Veleia en la actual localidad de Iruña de Oka (Álava) estatura y corpulencia, a lo que ha de añadirse cierta tendencia a una coloración más clara de la tez.

http://www.kondaira.net/esp/THistoria.html#Indoeuroparrak


11) Investigaciones realizadas principalmente por Peter Forster, doctor en Biología y miembro destacado del Instituto McDonald, y sus colaboradores del laboratorio de genética molecular de este instituto. El estudio por otras universidades del ADN mitocondrial, así como el estudio del cromosoma Y (paterno) para realizar la misma investigación (en lugar del ADN mitocondrial), apunta hacia las mismas conclusiones.

A partir de esta época, probablemente, se comienza a desarrollar en la zona cantábrica y sur de Francia el grupo humano protovasco y su lengua, el protoeuskara, dando lugar a la civilización franco-cantábrica. Del 16.000 a.C. en adelante el clima comienza a ser más cálido y según las investigaciones de paleogenética, comienza la expansión de los protovascos, extendiendo su cultura, la magdaleniense, por la despoblada Europa. Una cultura cuya máxima expresión serían las pinturas rupestres con las que los protovascos Indumentaria de los protovascos en el magdalenienseornamentaron las cuevas europeas. La extensión y localización de la cultura magdaleniense en Europa, coincide exactamente con este estudio, asimismo los rasgos fonéticos y léxicos comunes con los vascos, encontrados en las tierras donde se extendió la antigua civilización franco-cantábrica (tercio norte peninsular y mitad sur de Francia) de esta época, parecen avalar también este estudio. Hace 10.000 años comenzó el deshielo de los glaciares escandinavos, lo que contribuyó a que los protovascos se extendieran también por esta zona.

Estas investigaciones genéticas llevadas a cabo para el conocimiento de la evolución humana en Europa, indican que tres cuartos de los europeos actuales proceden, por vía matrilineal, de una población europea del período preglacial y que están estrechamente emparentados con los vascos. Indicando también que el aporte genético no protovasco (indoeuropeo en su gran mayoría) supone, únicamente, el 25% del total.

This site doesn't give clear information about the skeletons studied. What is their radiocarbon dating ? How many skeletons ? It doesn't look very scientific. Dates under the title "Neolithic" range from 2500 to 300 BCE, which is to say early Bronze Age to Iron Age. Your description is right in the middle of this "chapter" and refers to the modern incidence of R1b as a sign of "prehistoric origin". That doesn't mean anything. The Indo-Europeans could have arrived as early as 2500 BCE in Western Europe, although more probably around 2200-2000 BCE. Fair or red hair from that period onwards could be Indo-European.

If you find clearly radiocarbon dated specimens of fair/red hair in Western Europe prior to 2500 BCE, please let me know.

iann_allein
10-01-10, 06:06
The ancient Greek & Romanss

=> See post #3 below.


What do you mean? Maciamo.

The ancient Germanic people,
The ancient Slavs 0r
The ancient Indians?

Haganus
11-01-10, 01:26
Please explain me how it is possible that the Indo-Europeans had some
Mongoloide traits. The haplogroups of the Northwest-Europeans do
not show any mongoloid trait.

Maciamo
11-01-10, 14:05
Please explain me how it is possible that the Indo-Europeans had some
Mongoloide traits. The haplogroups of the Northwest-Europeans do
not show any mongoloid trait.

This is because they didn't move straight from the steppe to North-West Europe (there were no air planes at the time ;-) ), but spent 500 years (roughly from 3000 to 2500 BCE) intermixing with other Europeans in the Danube basin before settling around the Alps, where they further mixed with the locals before continuing to Western and Northern Europe. This is why Europeans still vary a lot in term of autosomal DNA where Y-DNA is similar. The oldest population has had the most important phenotypic influence on modern people. Only genetic traits that were selected for their usefulness (e.g. lactose tolerance) or aesthetic value (fair pigmentation) spread quickly. For the rest we are not so strongly genetically connected with the people who lived in the Pontic steppes 5000 years ago.

Haganus
11-01-10, 18:23
But I do not understand how it is possible that the Indo-Europeans who moved to West-
Europe, had mongoloid traits. So northwest Europeans also have mongoloid ancestors?

Marianne
11-01-10, 20:12
Well northwest Europeans, as every other European, didn't "grow" suddenly in the fields and trees of Northwest Europe. They came from somewhere and that was Asia. There was mixing within Europe but all Europeans have Asian ancestors and according to the Out-of-Africa theory we all have African ancestors.

I don't understand why it is so surprising for you.

Haganus
12-01-10, 01:37
But you do not see any mongoloid traits with the Netherlands and
Danes. I suppose that they are the purest nordic and falish people.
Really germanic.

Wilhelm
12-01-10, 01:42
But you do not see any mongoloid traits with the Netherlands and
Danes. I suppose that they are the purest nordic and falish people.
Really germanic.
And what 'pure Nordic' is supposed to mean ??
Mongoloids traits are not just slanted eyes. Plus, thousands of years of evolution and interbreeding with the natives pre-Indoeuropeans and Near-easterns, this mongoloid traits have disappeared

Maciamo
12-01-10, 13:45
But you do not see any mongoloid traits with the Netherlands and
Danes. I suppose that they are the purest nordic and falish people.
Really germanic.

Actually all Scandinavians all slight Mongoloid traits. It is more marked in some regions, like Gotland island or northern Sweden. There is a substantial amount of Siberian haplogroups in Scandinavia (e.g. 7% of N1c1 and 0.5% of Q in Sweden, and up to 5% of mtDNA A, C and D). Some places invaded by the Vikings, like Orkney, have more haplogroup Q than in modern Scandinavia, so Vikings could have been more Mongoloid-looking too. Actually, we could go as far as to say that Mongoloid DNA is what distinguishes Nordic people from other Europeans. Finland and Baltic countries, which have the highest percentage of both fair hair and blue eyes have the highest percentage of Siberian haplogroups (60% of Y-DNA in Finland).

Physical traits can change fast. Skeletons from Europeans 2000 years ago are quite different from that of modern Europeans. In the 10,000 year explosion (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0465002218?ie=UTF8&tag=eupedia-21&link_code=as3&camp=2506&creative=9298&creativeASIN=0465002218), the author explains that people back then often had strong brow ridges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supraorbital_ridge), a trait that has nearly completely disappeared in modern Europeans.

Cambrius (The Red)
12-01-10, 17:01
Many people seem to have a distorted idea of what the term Nordic entails, racially. No different than for many other ethnicities around the world. The word "pure" should never be used to define any ethnicity / race.

Haganus
13-01-10, 00:09
Many thanks for these interesting information. But I can imagine myself
that mongoloid traits are found in Russia, Finland or Lappland. How are
these traits with the Scandinavians caused? By contacts with Finns
or Sami?

Are these mongoloid traits found with the Danes, Germans and Dutch too?
It is a difficult thing for me to understand it. Swedish people with so
pure fair (even flaxen or red) hair have mongoloid ancestors! You only can expect it with the Hungarians, Slavic and Finnish peoples.

Haganus
13-01-10, 00:15
And browrigdes: this is characteristic for farmers and sailors at the
North Sea (Friesland, north Germany and Jutland). Probably descendants
of the Bruenn/Aurignac and Borreby men who lived in southwest France
during the Ice Age. See Coon: Races of the Europe (chapter the Netherlands).

A joke: Virchow (a German anthropologist 19e century,thought that he saw real Neanderthalers in the Dutch province of Friesland).

Marianne
13-01-10, 01:00
Many thanks for these interesting information. But I can imagine myself
that mongoloid traits are found in Russia, Finland or Lappland. How are
these traits with the Scandinavians caused? By contacts with Finns
or Sami?

Are these mongoloid traits found with the Danes, Germans and Dutch too?
It is a difficult thing for me to understand it. Swedish people with so
pure fair (even flaxen or red) hair have mongoloid ancestors! You only can expect it with the Hungarians, Slavic and Finnish peoples.

Well according to this table here http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml there is 1% N1c1 and 0.5% Q in Germany (with North Germany having 2% Q and 1.5% N1c1), 1,5% N1c1 in Denmark and 0.5% N1c1 and 0.5% in The Netherlands so there is some Siberian admixture in these countries.

Haganus
16-01-10, 01:14
I still have difficulties to accept mongoloid traits in real nordic and Germanic
people. I suppose that you find these traits only in the Russians.
I should like to see such mongoloid slits in Swedes or Dutch.

Wilhelm
16-01-10, 01:51
I still have difficulties to accept mongoloid traits in real nordic and Germanic
people. I suppose that you find these traits only in the Russians.
I should like to see such mongoloid slits in Swedes or Dutch.
I would like to know what "real" germanic means. There is no such thing REAL
Germanic countries also have Q and N

Marianne
16-01-10, 02:24
I still have difficulties to accept mongoloid traits in real nordic and Germanic
people. I suppose that you find these traits only in the Russians.
I should like to see such mongoloid slits in Swedes or Dutch.

I don't understand why you keep supposing that only Russians have such traits since DNA tests tell you differently.

The Y-DNA table on the site is not made by assumptions but by scientific data and it shows that Scandinavians have Siberian admixture and also they have J-E-G haplogroups, that are found all over in Europe.

Genocentrist
26-01-10, 07:27
Many thanks for these interesting information. But I can imagine myself
that mongoloid traits are found in Russia, Finland or Lappland. How are
these traits with the Scandinavians caused? By contacts with Finns
or Sami?.

All the R1-M173 Eurasids (majority of Europeans today) came from Asia. The ones that came from Anatolia mixed with native Near Easterners first so their Eurasid children looked more assimilated & later mixed with native R1-M173 Europids & other Neolithic farmers so they were more assimilated than those who entered directly from the Eurasian Steppe.

In gneral all R1-M173 Eurasids picked more native traits as they moved into Western Europe thats why Western European Eurasids are the least "East Asian :grin:" looking

Maciamo
26-01-10, 11:53
All the R1-M173 Eurasids (majority of Europeans today) came from Asia. The ones that came from Anatolia mixed with native Near Easterners first so their Eurasid children looked more assimilated & later mixed with native R1-M173 Europids & other Neolithic farmers so they were more assimilated than those who entered directly from the Eurasian Steppe.

In gneral all R1-M173 Eurasids picked more native traits as they moved into Western Europe thats why Western European Eurasids are the least "East Asian :grin:" looking

I agree with that.

galychanyn
26-01-10, 19:34
I still have difficulties to accept mongoloid traits in real nordic and Germanic
people.James Carville
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff277/aiwn/James_Carville3.jpg

Zack Ward
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff277/aiwn/Zack_Ward3.jpg

Emily Browning
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/aiwn07/browningnormal_34.jpghttp://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/aiwn07/browningnormal_344.jpg
Gary McKinnon
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/aiwn07/McKinnon_wideweb__430x275.jpg
Jodie Kidd
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/aiwn07/jodikidd.jpg

maltesekid
08-03-10, 05:56
north euros have east asian dna? some nordics do have higher cheekbones or smaller narrow eyes! i noticed! i think that the big eyed long nose races were from arabs africa or south asia! nordics are part finnic uralic possibly! people i seen with the biggest eyes are almost always south asians! they have huge eyes and longer nose they are the opposite of east asian! people in italy and greece got huge big eyes as well not as big as india indians or mid easterns though!

willy
18-03-10, 02:58
The Hungarians

Modern Hungarians are virtually undistinguishable from their Austrian and Slovak neighbours in terms of Y-chromosome haplogroups.

But Hungary is a notoriously difficult country for Y-DNA proportions. Percentages tend to vary widely from one study to another, depending on the regional populations sampled. Some studies have found over 60% of R1a in Hungary, although the average if half that figure. Some villages have a small percentage of CentralNorth Asian haplogroups N, Q or C, but they are otherwise quite rare. Interestingly neighbouring countries like Austria, Slovakia and Ukraine appear to have more C, Q and N than Hungary.

Hungary has a peculiar history due to its geography - a vast plain surrounded by mountains on every side (the Alps and the Carpathians). In Neolithic times, it was at the centre of the Danubian cultures, which was composed of E-V13 farmers from Thessaly and I2 hunter-gatherers (soon converted to farming). Then came the Slavic invasion (around 3,000 BCE), followed by the Proto-Italo-Celts and Alpine Celts (2,000 BCE to 200 BCE), who brought respectively R1a and R1b to the region.

Hungary was named after the Huns, who invaded Europe from 370 CE and partly settled in the Pannonian plain (now known as Hungarian plain). It isn't sure where the Huns came from, but it is generally believed that they descended from the Xiongnu peoples of Mongolia. They were a confederation and included various ethnic group under Hunnic leadership. It is likely that there were many R1a peoples (e.g. Scythians) from the Eurasian Steppe. The Huns themselves may have been an admixture of haplogroup Q and C. However less than 2% of the modern population belong to Q and C combined.

The next invaders were the Magyar, a Finno-Ugric people who arrived in Europe in the 9th century, and settled in Hungary in the 10th. Hungarian language is actually a descendant of Magyar, not Hunnic, despite the misleading name in "Hun-". The Magyar came from Central Asia, and are related to the modern Bashkirs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashkirs) of Russia. Modern Bashkirs have about 35% of haplogroup R1b1b2, 26% of R1a, 17% of N1c and 13% of R1b1b1. However, they were conquered by the Mongols, which may account for all the haplogroup C. In fact, the presence of C in Europe is usually attributed exclusively to the Mongols, and C is almost non-existent in Hungary anyway.

A study (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/01/magyars-and-madjars.html) compared the Y-chromosome of the Madjar tribe from Kazakhstan to the Magyars of Hungary, and found that some G lineages were related. The article doesn't specify the subcalde, but G1 is the dominant strain in Kazakhstan, and is also found in Hungary (but normally not elsewhere in Europe).

Another study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18373723) compared the Y-DNA of Hungarians with other Finno-Ugric-speaking populations in order to understand why modern Hungarians have so little of the typical Uralic haplogroup N1c. They tested a few individuals from a 10th-century cemetery found out that half of the individuals belonged to N1c. The sample was small, and maybe "pure" Magyar, but it nonetheless suggests that the original Magyar had much more N1c than modern Hungarians.

The Magyar population is thought to have suffered considerably from the 13th-century Mongol invasion of Europe, and from the 16th-century war against the Ottomans. Hungary was repopulated in great number by ethnic Germans/Austrians, which explains why modern Hungary is closest to Austria for its Y-DNA composition.

From all this can be deduced that the original Magyars were an admixture of N1c and R1a (predominant), with some G1, and maybe some R1b.

As haplogroup Q is neither associated with the Magyars not with the Mongols, it must be either be of Hunnic origin, or from other Asian tribes part of the various invaders from the steppes.

I don't think

willy
18-03-10, 02:59
I agree with that.
I am not !!!!

willy
18-03-10, 03:01
Physical traits can change fast.


Yes but not so fast

Semitic Duwa
13-04-10, 19:20
Babylonians were Amorites: J1c3-P58+.

Same clade for Assyrians.

Maciamo
14-04-10, 08:52
I don't think

That's for this brilliant refutal. That was very instructive. :wary2:

Cambrius (The Red)
14-04-10, 13:50
But I do not understand how it is possible that the Indo-Europeans who moved to West-
Europe, had mongoloid traits. So northwest Europeans also have mongoloid ancestors?


Of course they do. Read an introductory population genetics textbook...

Eochaidh
14-04-10, 14:56
Of course they do. Read an introductory population genetics textbook...

I was about to ask for recommendations for books, but then I remembered that Maciamo has some already posted. For reference, they are here: eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25272

Also, the pictures posted below, look like Irish people. That kind of narrow eyes is pretty common there and even in my family.

camerino
15-04-10, 13:27
Maciamo, do you know the haplogroup of the old picenian people who where living in the Marche region of Italy ?
Thanks
R.

Cambrius (The Red)
16-04-10, 14:05
I was about to ask for recommendations for books, but then I remembered that Maciamo has some already posted. For reference, they are here: eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25272

Also, the pictures posted below, look like Irish people. That kind of narrow eyes is pretty common there and even in my family.

Some of the individuals in the pics don't seem to have a "mongoloid look". I know James Carville personally and he certainly does have a mongoloid strain.

You won't find much in terms of mongoloid features among the Irish. Certainly, nothing very pronounced, I believe.

Eochaidh
16-04-10, 23:17
Some of the individuals in the pics don't seem to have a "mongoloid look". I know James Carville personally and he certainly does have a mongoloid strain.

You won't find much in terms of mongoloid features among the Irish. Certainly, nothing very pronounced, I believe.
I didn't mean to imply that I think that the Irish had many mongoloid features, but rather that I think that the reason that people might look at pictures like these and think that they do is because of the narrow, deep set eyes.

Now Carville is another story. Interestingly, the name Carville is not uncommon in that part of Ireland where the Eochaidhs lived. It is Norman and probably came with John de Courcy on his tour of Ireland in 1177.

An American Carville bought an old Norman Castle called Darver Castle in that area and turned it into a hotel. An example of backwards migration.

It would be interesting to know James Carville's ancestry because he does have a unique look to him.

Cambrius (The Red)
17-04-10, 04:16
And browrigdes: this is characteristic for farmers and sailors at the
North Sea (Friesland, north Germany and Jutland). Probably descendants
of the Bruenn/Aurignac and Borreby men who lived in southwest France
during the Ice Age. See Coon: Races of the Europe (chapter the Netherlands).

A joke: Virchow (a German anthropologist 19e century,thought that he saw real Neanderthalers in the Dutch province of Friesland).

I wouldn't use Coon as a reference for much of anything. The man was a racist and produced research that was methodologically dubious, particularly when it came to peoples outside of Northern Europe. Coon was forced out of the American Anthropological Association (AAA) essentially for naked racism. He collaborated closely with one of the biggest racists of the 1960's, his cousin, the infamous Carleton Putnam. Carleton Coon has been so thoroughly disgraced that at least one major encyclopedia has removed his biography.

Wilhelm
11-05-10, 00:06
Maciamo, do you have the studies that link Cro-Magnon man with haplogroups I or IJ ?

Mikewww
14-05-10, 20:36
...

The ancient Celts
It is now believed that the ancient Celts were by a very large majority R1b people. Many subclades of R1b divide the various geographic groups of Celts. 2500 years ago, British and Irish Celts belonged mostly to the subclade R1b-L21. Celts from Iberia and south-west Gaul were R1b-M167, while the other Gauls, from central France to southern Germany to northern Italy, belonged to R1b-U152. Further subgroups exist for all these clades (see Origins of European haplogroups (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml)).
.....


Please reconsider the description of the Gauls of central and northern France and southern Germany as being more than R-U152.

France may have the largest population of R-L21*, period. It has not been identified until the last year and a half or so but still a lot of R-L21 folks are showing up in France and southern Germany. Perhaps there are more R-L21* in France than R-U152.

Please note that when I normalized the data RMS2 pulled from FTDNA's Ancestral Origins database, France appears to be the major source of R-L21.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=357836&postcount=12


Among the countries listed below, here is the total normalized population of R-L21* expected per country as a proportion of all of the below countries:

Ireland 8% (of the total)
Scotland 4%
Wales 5%
England 21% (so England is the biggest R-L21* country in the Isles)
Germany 13%
France 49% (that's right, France is large state that is under tested)

Semitic Duwa
16-06-10, 12:51
You minimize J1's frequency amongst Semitic Na7rainids.

Modern studies on Assyrians show that at least 60% of them belong to J1c3d (L147+).

Considering that the surroundings mainstream "arabic" populations along with Marsh arabs are J2, it is reasonable to conclude that Babylonians along with Assyrians and Akadians were J1c3d (L147+) at their core.

Caneker
17-06-10, 17:58
There was a fairy-tale saying that Turks(ottoman, so their ancestor's uyghurs) are Troyans who emigrated into the asia after greek invasion. When i saw Uyghur Y-DNA results, it seemed a little reasonable to me. What do you think? Where did uyghurs come from?
After conquering Constantinepole,
Ottoman Sultan II. Mehmet says: "Now we took Troy's revenge."

Semitic Duwa
17-06-10, 18:03
There was a fairy-tale saying that Turks(ottoman, so their ancestor's uyghurs) are Troyans who emigrated into the asia after greek invasion. When i saw Uyghur Y-DNA results, it seemed a little reasonable to me. What do you think? Where did uyghurs come from?


Turkiçized Tokharians, the lot of 'em.

Caneker
17-06-10, 18:09
Turkiçized Tokharians, the lot of 'em.

You mean tocharians?

Segia
17-06-10, 19:57
Dealing again with the myth of hg=language=race=culture. The assumption that when turkic languages -or others- were developed turkic peoples were mainly of a common race/phenotype and hg is legendary.

At least, in this case, nobody is deffending the "male extermination" theory, supported here in relation to the IE dilemma. Perhaps turkic riders were more humanitary than IE "centauros"...

I'm not denying that uygurs have IE ancestors -yes, tocharians are the best candidate-, I'm saying that the "same hg" can be involved in the genesis of different cultures and languages. Hgs don't carry an exclusivity label.

Maciamo
18-06-10, 09:52
Dealing again with the myth of hg=language=race=culture. The assumption that when turkic languages -or others- were developed turkic peoples were mainly of a common race/phenotype and hg is legendary.

Absolutely. Turkic languages originated in Mongolia nearly 2000 years ago. Turkish people are mostly descendants of the ancient Anatolian population. Turkish culture is a melting pot that has absorbed Central Asian, Middle Eastern and European (especially Greek) cultural elements.

Humanist
05-07-10, 19:06
You minimize J1's frequency amongst Semitic Na7rainids.

Modern studies on Assyrians show that at least 60% of them belong to J1c3d (L147+).



Please refer me to the studies to which you make reference.

The following distribution of modern Assyrian Y-DNA is the most reliable, as of this moment:

R1b 28.00%
J1 16.00%
J2 12.00%
T 12.00%
E1b 8.00%
G 8.00%
R1a 6.00%
R2 4.00%
F 2.00%
N 2.00%
Q1 2.00%

n=50
Assyrian FTDNA Project: 41
R2 FTDNA Project: 1
23andMe: 7
Lebanon Study: 1

rms2
06-07-10, 13:02
Please refer me to the studies to which you make reference.

The following distribution of modern Assyrian Y-DNA is the most reliable, as of this moment:

R1b 28.00%
J1 16.00%
J2 12.00%
T 12.00%
E1b 8.00%
G 8.00%
R1a 6.00%
R2 4.00%
F 2.00%
N 2.00%
Q1 2.00%

n=50
Assyrian FTDNA Project: 41
R2 FTDNA Project: 1
23andMe: 7
Lebanon Study: 1

Wow! Thanks for that very informative post, Humanist. I was not aware of the relative high frequency of R1b1b2 in the Assyrian DNA Project. Looks like most of it is P310-, which is not surprising, but it is another piece in the M269+ puzzle.

Fascinating!

Semitic Duwa
06-07-10, 14:38
Please refer me to the studies to which you make reference.

The following distribution of modern Assyrian Y-DNA is the most reliable, as of this moment:

R1b 28.00%
J1 16.00%
J2 12.00%
T 12.00%
E1b 8.00%
G 8.00%
R1a 6.00%
R2 4.00%
F 2.00%
N 2.00%
Q1 2.00%

n=50
Assyrian FTDNA Project: 41
R2 FTDNA Project: 1
23andMe: 7
Lebanon Study: 1


Check Yonan's study (60% actually referring to M304+, not L147; my bad).

L147's frequency actually turns out to be superior to that of M269 and M17 combined.

rms2
06-07-10, 16:36
I found this study (http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/study_yonan2009.htm) of Assyrian Christians by Yonan et al from 2009. It found 41% J1 (M267) and 23% R1b1b2 (M269), among other things.

Interesting that R1b1b2 was the second most frequent group among Assyrian Christians and had a much higher frequency among them than among Iraqi Muslims (who had 4.3% R1b1b2).

I couldn't find another study with the name Yonan in it, but I might have missed it.

Humanist
06-07-10, 17:43
Hello Gentlemen,

The Yonan study, from all indications, is a hoax. Believe me, many folks have attempted to locate the actual study, and all have failed. The individuals responsible appear to have chosen the name of the Assyrian Project Administrator, Mary Yonan (a librarian by trade), as the study's author, to lend some legitimacy to the purported findings.

Please refer to discussions on this topic on the various forums, including the DNA-Forums, and Anthropology Biodiversity Forum.

Semitic Duwa
06-07-10, 20:10
Where on the latter?!

rms2
06-07-10, 23:49
Hello Gentlemen,

The Yonan study, from all indications, is a hoax. Believe me, many folks have attempted to locate the actual study, and all have failed. The individuals responsible appear to have chosen the name of the Assyrian Project Administrator, Mary Yonan (a librarian by trade), as the study's author, to lend some legitimacy to the purported findings.

Please refer to discussions on this topic on the various forums, including the DNA-Forums, and Anthropology Biodiversity Forum.

It does look rather suspicious, since there is only a rather strange abstract and no link to any actual study.

Hmmm . . .

Humanist
07-07-10, 01:44
Where on the latter?!

I attempted to post a link to the thread, but received the following error message: "You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 10 posts or more."

Therefore, if you will bear with me, I will paste one of the relevant responses from the thread in question, below.

The new Iranian FTDNA Project Administrator and respected forum contributor, Humata, in reference to the supposed Yonan study, wrote:


[T]he Genetic Atlas itself is a joke.

A bit of sleuthing by members from [DNA-Forums] discovered that it had some sort of connection with Stormfront.

Aside from the above, the site's references to "Eurasid" and "Arabid" Y-Chromosome haplogroups are nothing more than pseudoscience. The chart found there is not attested or displayed anywhere in the scientific community or on intellectual DNA boards. It is merely a fusion of Y-DNA haplogroups with neo-anthropology terms.

Anyone who has a serious interest in genetic genealogy should avoid that site and refrain from using it as a source.

Semitic Duwa
07-07-10, 16:28
Ok, thanks (found it).

Humanist
08-07-10, 17:38
Ok, thanks (found it).

No problem.

Taranis
14-07-10, 08:05
The ancient Basques
Although modern Basques belong predominantly to haplogroup R1b with a minority of I2a, there is little alternative but to suppose that Neolithic Basques were I2a, prior to the Indo-European invasions (that brought R1b). Modern Basque would have retained a lot of ancient autosomal characteristics through female lineages. Modern Basque have dark hair and eyes, and it is probable that ancient I2 people from continental Europe were also dark-haired and dark-eyed, although with fairer skin that their closest cousins, the Near/Middle Eastern J2 and J1.
Ancient mtDNA indeed indicate that prehistoric Basques were closer to modern Near Easterners.
Can I play the devil's advocate there? What is the likelihood that R1b arrived in Western Europe before the Indo-European languages (ie, some time in the Neolithic), and that R1b was the dominant Y-Haplogroup amongst the Basques to begin with? This, of course, would mean that the Basques are not aboriginal to Western Europe.

I for one would hence argue, if the above hypothesis is correct, that Indo-European languages did come into the Atlantic region only with the spread of S28/U152.

But, I must admit, I always had a problem with the association of R1b with the Indo-Europeans, on the ground that the Basques, who do not speak an Indo-European language, are predominantly R1b. Now, it should be noted that there's very Basque-specific clades of R1b (M153, specifically).

LeBrok
14-07-10, 08:23
Hungary is predominantly R1a and they don't speak Slavic. They speak Magyar that came, I guess, with N, but N now is negligible in Hungary. The point is that one exception doesn't make a rule, it could be a freaky coincidence.

Taranis
14-07-10, 08:33
Hungary is predominantly R1a and they don't speak Slavic. They speak Magyar that came, I guess, with N, but N now is negligible in Hungary. The point is that one exception doesn't make a rule, it could be a freaky coincidence.

I see your point, and I agree such a scenario would work. I also know that one must be careful not to overinterprete things in regard for language and haplogroup. ;-)

However, the problem is that it isn't just the only exception. Today there is only Basque left, but Antiquity, there was also Iberian (which may or may not be related with Basque, but as I understand it the idea is currently unfashionable by linguists), and there was Tartessian, which was something yet entirely different.

The image that we get in ca. 200 BC is that the Iberian penninsula was only partially Celticized and that there was variety of non-IE languages extant on the penninsula.

The problem is that we get a very different image from the rest of the Atlantic region (ie Gaul and the British Isles), namely that of a region that is firmly Celtic-speaking.

I must admit, I for one am unhappy/unsatisfied with most hypotheses on the time frame of the emergence and spread of the Celtic languages. It can't have been too early, and it can't have been too late, either. The only thing that is basically for certain I would say is that the Hallstatt/La-Tene Celts were carriers of S28/U152.

rms2
14-07-10, 14:28
Can I play the devil's advocate there? What is the likelihood that R1b arrived in Western Europe before the Indo-European languages (ie, some time in the Neolithic), and that R1b was the dominant Y-Haplogroup amongst the Basques to begin with? This, of course, would mean that the Basques are not aboriginal to Western Europe.

I for one would hence argue, if the above hypothesis is correct, that Indo-European languages did come into the Atlantic region only with the spread of S28/U152.

But, I must admit, I always had a problem with the association of R1b with the Indo-Europeans, on the ground that the Basques, who do not speak an Indo-European language, are predominantly R1b. Now, it should be noted that there's very Basque-specific clades of R1b (M153, specifically).

There was no time for your U152=Indo-European scenario. Basque R1b1b2 is almost exclusively P312+, and U152 is P312+. The difference in age between U152 and the other P312+ clades (and, in fact, between all of them and P312 itself) is negligible. In fact, the difference in ages of all the divisions of P310+ (which includes U106 and its clades, as well) is negligible. So, chances are, whatever Basque R1b1b2 was originally, U152 was originally, as well. Either Maciamo is right, and R1b1b2 as a whole was the vector of Indo-European in Western Europe, or R1b1b2, including U152, whether Neolithic or otherwise, was non-Indo-European.

There is just no way U152 spread Indo-European languages to Western Europe.

rms2
14-07-10, 14:39
. . . The only thing that is basically for certain I would say is that the Hallstatt/La-Tene Celts were carriers of S28/U152.

I don't think that is certain at all. First, Hallstatt and La Tene are two different things. One can say that Hallstatt influenced La Tene, but they are not the same thing.

Equating U152 with Hallstatt/La Tene Celts is a theory, mostly the work of a single enthusiast. It could be right, but it could be wrong, as well. More than one person has pointed out that U152 corresponds fairly well with the expansion of Alemannic German tribes. Others have seen it as primarily Italic, since it seems to be the most frequent R1b1b2 clade in Italy, and not just in Northern Italy, but all over the Italian peninsula.

Taranis
14-07-10, 15:24
There was no time for your U152=Indo-European scenario. Basque R1b1b2 is almost exclusively P312+, and U152 is P312+. The difference in age between U152 and the other P312+ clades (and, in fact, between all of them and P312 itself) is negligible. In fact, the difference in ages of all the divisions of P310+ (which includes U106 and its clades, as well) is negligible.

I disagree, I would think that there are substantial difference in age there, and I would also like to point out how the Basques predominantly have rather unique subclades of P312+ which are basically found nowhere outside of the Basque-speaking (or, by extension in Antiquity, formerly Aquitanian-speaking) areas. I should ask then, in what time frame do you think did P312+ and it's subclades appear then?


So, chances are, whatever Basque R1b1b2 was originally, U152 was originally, as well. Either Maciamo is right, and R1b1b2 as a whole was the vector of Indo-European in Western Europe, or R1b1b2, including U152, whether Neolithic or otherwise, was non-Indo-European.

As I said, I was under the impression (from the dates given for various markers that P312+ occured well in the Neolithic, and that there was a significant timespan until the various subclades appeared.

I must say that while Maciamo's hypothesis is very elegant, however, I have the problem with it that it doesn't explain the abundance of clearly non-IE languages in Iberia in the Antiquity.


There is just no way U152 spread Indo-European languages to Western Europe.

Why not? I should explain, when I say in this context "Western Europe" I mean the Atlantic region (British Isles, Gaul, Iberia).


I don't think that is certain at all. First, Hallstatt and La Tene are two different things. One can say that Hallstatt influenced La Tene, but they are not the same thing.

Last time I checked, La-Tene evolved out of Halstatt. Or, in other words, La-Tene is the iron age successor of Halstatt. However, I admit I may be wrong about that.


Equating U152 with Hallstatt/La Tene Celts is a theory, mostly the work of a single enthusiast. It could be right, but it could be wrong, as well. More than one person has pointed out that U152 corresponds fairly well with the expansion of Alemannic German tribes. Others have seen it as primarily Italic, since it seems to be the most frequent R1b1b2 clade in Italy, and not just in Northern Italy, but all over the Italian peninsula.

Well, I find the reasoning very sound based on a few issues (I must admit that I do not know of the work of said single enthusiast, I came up with this idea myself):

First off, the high occurence of it in all regions previously inhabited by Celts (in particular, but not exclusively, P-speaking Celts).

As for U152 corresponding with the Alemannic tribes, this makes no sense at all, because it fails to explain the occurence of U152 in Belgium and the British Isles (notably Ireland!). The only reasonable explanation I see for the presence of U152 in Ireland is that it is associated with Celts.

I should make it very clear that the marker is merely associated with Halstatt/La-Tene, and not exclusive to them. It is likely that the marker appeared long before (ie, the Celtic/Italic split had not occured yet). However, I must admit that it is also entirely possible that we get "false signals" in the entire circum-alpine region as a result of the Roman period. The high occurence of U152 in Italy could be explained by both the presence of the Cisalpine Gauls, and by the fact that the Italics themselves had their own share of U152.

LeBrok
14-07-10, 16:27
Welcome to Eupedia Taranis. Glad we have one more thinker here. :)
Unfortunately I'm lacking the info on this subject for a nice discussion.

Taranis
14-07-10, 16:31
Welcome to Eupedia Taranis. Glad we have one more thinker here. :)

Thank you! :smile:


Unfortunately I'm lacking the info on this subject for a nice discussion.

Well, I kind of hope that other board members will comment on it later. In fact, from what reception I got thus far, I kind of expect that my hypothesis will be torn to shreds now... :innocent:

Segia
14-07-10, 20:16
Hello, Taranis!

What spoke the first R1b carriers?
-Nobody knows.

It is possible to exist since the prehistory men carrying the same hg and speaking different -unrelated or distant related- languages?
-Yes, obviously.

Has been the current Basque Country always basque speaking?
-No, at least totally. In fact, most of the prerroman toponymia of the spanish Basque Country seems to be overwhelming IE. This doesn't implies that basque wasn't already spoken, but tell us that other languages are better attested. In Aquitania -France- "basque" presence seems to be older.

Are basque and iberian related?
-Yes, but it's hard to establish at wich degree. The former is a living language and the latter is a dead one, a "corpus language" extinct possibly 1600 y.a. Numerals are very similar, even for current basque.

What says archaelogy about this...?
-Surprisingly, the attested presence of non IE languages in Spain coincide "grosso modo" with the expansion of Urnenfelder Kultur (primary fields, 1st ex. -Ebro Valley-, and secondary fields 2nd. ex. -from Aquitania-) This doesn't mean that we should link a cultural phenomenon to a linguistic one, but it's curious. If both phenomena were related, we should transfer the problem behind the Pyrennes. The absence of writing records in central Europe make this business really complicated. Perhaps some toponyms...

And tartessian?
-It presents transcription problems, but the last studies -Koch and Wodko- point to be an IE paraceltic language (the oldest "native" language attested in Iberia). We were discussing on it some months ago. Take a sight at this link about tartessian (many linguists don't share this view, but...):

http://ifc.dpz.es/recursos/publicaciones/29/54/26koch.pdf

Taranis
15-07-10, 09:46
Hello, Taranis!

What spoke the first R1b carriers?
-Nobody knows.

Well, I wasn't talking about R1b as a whole here. I mean, all those ancient (ie, Central Asian M-73 and Middle Eastern/African V-88) clades of R1b, that's an entirely different story. But yeah, we obviously do not know what language they spoke.


It is possible to exist since the prehistory men carrying the same hg and speaking different -unrelated or distant related- languages?
-Yes, obviously.

Has been the current Basque Country always basque speaking?
-No, at least totally. In fact, most of the prerroman toponymia of the spanish Basque Country seems to be overwhelming IE. This doesn't implies that basque wasn't already spoken, but tell us that other languages are better attested. In Aquitania -France- "basque" presence seems to be older.

Oh, that is interesting!

So from that point of view, it is at least conceivable that the Basques may have "pulled a Hungary" and absorbed a population of largely Celtic stock. In that case the idea that R1b is indeed associated with the Indo-Europeans (well, their western expansion into Atlantic Europe), and this would explain why Haplogroup I, which, for all purposes should be their associated Haplogroup, is so exceedingly rare with the Basques.


Are basque and iberian related?
-Yes, but it's hard to establish at wich degree. The former is a living language and the latter is a dead one, a "corpus language" extinct possibly 1600 y.a. Numerals are very similar, even for current basque.

Well, it would make things "easier" if they were related.


What says archaelogy about this...?
-Surprisingly, the attested presence of non IE languages in Spain coincide "grosso modo" with the expansion of Urnenfelder Kultur (primary fields, 1st ex. -Ebro Valley-, and secondary fields 2nd. ex. -from Aquitania-) This doesn't mean that we should link a cultural phenomenon to a linguistic one, but it's curious. If both phenomena were related, we should transfer the problem behind the Pyrennes. The absence of writing records in central Europe make this business really complicated. Perhaps some toponyms...

Actually, as you mention Urnfield, I saw a paper on a Urnfield locality (Lichtenstein cave in Lower Saxony, Germany, NOT in Liechtenstein :laughing: ), and they turned up a very peculiar result of Y-DNA: apparently 12 were Haplogroup I2b2, two were R1a, and one was R1b (specificially the U-106 subclade). Now, I do not know how representative that is of the Urnfield culture (probably not very), and while the presence of R1a and of R1b is to be expected, the dominance of I2b2 there is something very surprising.


And tartessian?
-It presents transcription problems, but the last studies -Koch and Wodko- point to be an IE paraceltic language (the oldest "native" language attested in Iberia). We were discussing on it some months ago. Take a sight at this link about tartessian (many linguists don't share this view, but...):

Well, I have seen the paper, too, and I must say (although I'm not a linguist), I am not convinced, either. At least, the evidence that Koch bring is not unambiguous, and also, there is problems with his methodology.
The most drastic effect if Tartessian was indeed a Celtic (or "Para-Celtic", as you call it) language is that this would mean that the Atlantic Bronze Age was indeed a Celtic culture, and this potentially moves the origin of Celtic languages from Alpine Europe to the Atlantic region. Of course, this runs deeper: what does this say about the earlier Beaker culture, and about the relationship of the Beaker culture to the Corded Ware culture? And how do the much later Halstatt/La-Tene cultures (the latter was undoubtably Celtic, but equally undoubtably originated outside of the Atlantic region) fit into all this? :thinking::confused2:

EDIT: I have been thinking a bit further. Of course, there is the issue with the P/Q-Celtic language split, and it would sort of make more sense if Q-Celtic developed in the Atlantic region (since it's only attested in the Atlantic region!!!) and for P-Celtic to originate in the Alpine region. That just might work. But the question for me remains where and when the (common ancestral) Proto-Celtic was spoken... probably there's no way to know for certain.

rms2
15-07-10, 13:32
There is very little U152 in the predominantly Celtic regions of the British Isles. What there is in Ireland (very little) is associated primarily with people with English surnames. There is almost no U152 that I know of among the old Gaelic, Catholic population of Ireland. There is also very very little U152 in Wales, Scotland, and the western sections of England.

The age difference between the various subdivisions of P310 is negligible, and between the various subclades of P312 (and between them and P312 itself) it is practically nil. So the idea that U152 is something radically different from the rest of P312, the Indo-European element as opposed to the non-Indo-European, is highly unlikely. Whatever U152 is, it is inextricably bound up with whatever the rest of P310 (and especially P312) is. The fact that there is little difference in age between the various divisions of P310 is reflected in the fact that all of them carry the WAMH and are difficult to sort from haplotypes. Distinctive clusters, most of them relatively young, do appear, but the great bulk of P310 haplotypes, and especially P312 haplotypes, is extremely difficult to parse. In other words, it is very hard to tell a U152 haplotype from an L21 haplotype from an SRY2627 haplotype, etc. The reason for that is that none of those clades has had much time to become very different from its cousins.

U152 is not especially predominant in Belgium. It is possible that U152 could be Alemannic without being exclusively Alemannic. It fits the distribution of Alemannic Germans as well if not better than it does that of so-called "Hallstatt and La Tene" Celts. A recent study of R1b1b2 in France undertaken by the University of Santiago de Compostela in Spain found that U152 was the most frequent subclade in only one region of France: Alsace.

While I think it probable that U152 was involved in the Hallstatt and La Tene cultures, I don't think either of them was exclusively U152.

And there is no evidence or any real reason to believe that carriers of U152 spread Indo-European to Atlantic Europe. In fact, some pretty prominent experts, including Dr. John Koch and Dr. Barry Cunliffe, have hypothesized that Celtic spread from the Atlantic zone eastward:

http://tinyurl.com/2wezmo8

Taranis
15-07-10, 13:43
There is very little U152 in the predominantly Celtic regions of the British Isles. What there is in Ireland (very little) is associated primarily with people with English surnames. There is almost no U152 that I know of among the old Gaelic, Catholic population of Ireland. There is also very very little U152 in Wales, Scotland, and the western sections of England.

The age difference between the various subdivisions of P310 is negligible, and between the various subclades of P312 (and between them and P312 itself) it is practically nil. So the idea that U152 is something radically different from the rest of P312, the Indo-European element as opposed to the non-Indo-European, is highly unlikely. Whatever U152 is, it is inextricably bound up with whatever the rest of P310 (and especially P312) is.

U152 is not especially predominant in Belgium. It is possible that U152 could be Alemannic without being exclusively Alemannic. It fits the distribution of Alemannic Germans as well if not better than it does that of so-called "Hallstatt and La Tene" Celts. A recent study of R1b1b2 in France undertaken by the University of Santiago de Compostela in Spain found that U152 was the most frequent subclade in only one region of France: Alsace.

While I think it probable that U152 was involved in the Hallstatt and La Tene cultures, I don't think either of them was exclusively U152.

And there is no evidence or any real reason to believe that carriers of U152 spread Indo-European to Atlantic Europe. In fact, some pretty prominent experts, including Dr. John Koch and Dr. Barry Cunliffe, have hypothesized that Celtic spread from the Atlantic zone eastward:

Well, there goes that idea... I stand corrected. And, well, I suspect the figures that I looked at were grossly outdated. :ashamed2:

And at this point I would re-iterate that a map/table of the various subclades of R1b would be highly appreciated by me.

The problem that I have with Celtic originating in the Atlantic region is this: how did it get there in the first place? Indo-European obviously came to Europe from the East, and I don't quite see how the Celts suddenly pop up in the Atlantic region and spread in the opposite direction. That makes no sense to me.

rms2
15-07-10, 13:52
Well, there goes that idea... I stand corrected. And, well, I suspect the figures that I looked at were grossly outdated. :ashamed2:

And at this point I would re-iterate that a map/table of the various subclades of R1b would be highly appreciated by me.

The problem that I have with Celtic originating in the Atlantic region is this: how did it get there in the first place? Indo-European obviously came to Europe from the East, and I don't quite see how the Celts suddenly pop up in the Atlantic region and spread in the opposite direction. That makes no sense to me.

That is a good question.

Jean Manco, in her The Peopling of Europe (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/peoplingeurope.shtml), theorizes that what she calls "the Stelae People" brought Indo-European to the Iberian Peninsula by sea from the Pontic-Caspian region.

Cambrius (The Red)
15-07-10, 14:18
Well, there goes that idea... I stand corrected. And, well, I suspect the figures that I looked at were grossly outdated. :ashamed2:
And at this point I would re-iterate that a map/table of the various subclades of R1b would be highly appreciated by me.
The problem that I have with Celtic originating in the Atlantic region is this: how did it get there in the first place? Indo-European obviously came to Europe from the East, and I don't quite see how the Celts suddenly pop up in the Atlantic region and spread in the opposite direction. That makes no sense to me.

It should be said that "Celticity" / "Celtic" is primarily a cultural construct. However, people originating from ancient Celtic lands do share, to some degree, certain genetic markers. Population geneticists are uncovering new affinities within the Atlantic Facade regularly.

Also, a growing number of philologists and linguists believe Tartessian, once spoken in southern Portugal and SW Spain, is the first Celtic language, pre-dating by more than 500 years anything confirmed in central Europe. Reference the latest research by Koch, Cunliffe and others who are participating in the Celtic from the South-west project, sponsored by the University of Wales (Institute for Celtic Studies). A new segment will be published in August of this year.

Aristander
15-07-10, 19:04
Very interesting discussion so far. I am anxious to see the study on the Tartessian language when it is published next month. I have always thought that the Tartessians probably were migrants from North Africa.

Taranis
15-07-10, 20:52
It should be said that "Celticity" / "Celtic" is primarily a cultural construct. However, people originating from ancient Celtic lands do share, to some degree, certain genetic markers. Population geneticists are uncovering new affinities within the Atlantic Facade regularly.

Depends. Wether talk about the Celtic languages, or about material cultures usually attributed to speakers of said languages. The main brawl that I have with the idea that Celtic originated in the Atlantic Europe is that it is totally out of place (and time!) of the phylogeny of the Indo-European languages.


Also, a growing number of philologists and linguists believe Tartessian, once spoken in southern Portugal and SW Spain, is the first Celtic language, pre-dating by more than 500 years anything confirmed in central Europe. Reference the latest research by Koch, Cunliffe and others who are participating in the Celtic from the South-west project, sponsored by the University of Wales (Institute for Celtic Studies). A new segment will be published in August of this year.

I am not a linguist (but I talked with one :good_job: ), but as far I understand it, there's a number of problems associated with Koch's work. The main issue is that his primary set of data are personal names.

This goes deeper, because personal name etymologies often will tell you more about the individual making them than the name itself, since they almost never come with glosses, so, finding an etymology becomes a game where you essentially seaching for words in your language that sound alike. Given a sufficiently large dictionary and a willingness to play fast and freely between sounds, it's very easy to do this. In some case you have purported "Celtic" origins for words for which it is not even sure if they even have demonstrated Indo-European derivations.

Secondly, even if the names indeed have Celtic etymologies doesn't mean that Tartessian actually was a Celtic language. We know that there were Celts in Iberia, but we cannot automatically assume that everybody with a Celtic-sounding name really spoke Celtic. This is why most linguists stick away from personal name etymologies.

Thirdly, and as far as I understand it, this is something of a "cardinal sin" in terms of linguistics, is that Koch makes no effort to demonstrate how the sounds of Tartessian are supposed to correspond to sounds in Celtiberian. This is pretty futile, because you run under the assumption that any sound can correspond to any other sound, which is not how languages work. And, as far as I understand, this is something that linguists haven't been practicing since the days of Jacob Grimm.

The bottom line is, it is possible that Koch is right, but he hasn't actually proven anything other than the words he has taken out of context from two languages that sometimes sound somewhat alike.

So yes, I guess we will have to wait for more papers on the issue.


Very interesting discussion so far. I am anxious to see the study on the Tartessian language when it is published next month. I have always thought that the Tartessians probably were migrants from North Africa.

Well, I must admit that the idea that Tartessian was actually an Afro-Asiatic language is tempting, however, one could argue that the evidence for that is probably just as spurious as the evidence that is was Celtic. The only thing where everybody seems to agree on is that Tartessian was not related with Iberian (and by extension Basque/Aquitanian). Also, it should be noted the Tartessian script was derived from the Phoenician one, and the Phoenicians did apparently have intense trade with the Tartessians.
But alas, in the end we just don't know...

gnolen
15-07-10, 22:30
This discussion popped up in my e-mail. I no longer argue the matter on forums, boards, and lists.

I will simply ask that you Google the following since I am not being allowed to post a URL to my research: Of the Nolans (Nola): Origins of the Irish and Scottish.

Origins of the Irish and Scottish: Corca Luighe (Corca Laoidhe) and Dál Riada (Dál Riata)

R-U152 (R1b1b2a1b4) (R1b1b2a1b7) (R1b1b2a2g) (R1b1b2h) (R1b1c10) - DYS #385a and 385b at 11 and 17: A Corca Luighe (Corca Laoidhe) Ossory (Osraighe) and Dál Riada (Dál Riata) Uladh Haplotype in Co. Donegal, Ulster, Ireland, 1600s.

Thanks, this is my first and last post on this forum. rms moderates the R1b1b2 forum at World Families network. R-L21 dominates Ireland and Great Britain, but R-U152 and other sub-clades do exist, also.

rms2
16-07-10, 01:08
No one is saying there is no U152 in the British Isles, but it is true there is very little of it in Ireland, and what is there seems to be connected mostly to people with English surnames. That is not to say there are no exceptions, but they are few.

There are y haplogroups in Ireland other than R-L21, but they are in the minority, and if one takes a look at the old Gaelic, Catholic surnames, he will find they are all well represented in the R-L21 category.

I am not trying to make any big, grandiose claims here. My own y-line is not Irish, at least as far as I know. The evidence in my case points to the West Midlands of England or perhaps to Wales (although I have Irish ancestry on a few other lines).

I'm just stating facts which anyone is free to verify by taking a look around at the various y-dna projects.

Taranis
16-07-10, 01:37
No one is saying there is no U152 in the British Isles, but it is true there is very little of it in Ireland, and what is there seems to be connected mostly to people with English surnames. That is not to say there are no exceptions, but they are few.

There are y haplogroups in Ireland other than R-L21, but they are in the minority, and if one takes a look at the old Gaelic, Catholic surnames, he will find they are all well represented in the R-L21 category.

I am not trying to make any big, grandiose claims here. My own y-line is not Irish, at least as far as I know. The evidence in my case points to the West Midlands of England or perhaps to Wales (although I have Irish ancestry on a few other lines).

I'm just stating facts which anyone is free to verify by taking a look around at the various y-dna projects.

Well, can you pinpoint to any specific project(s)? As I said, it would be cool to see lists/tables (or perhaps a graphic, even though that's hard to display?) of the various subclades of P312 distributed across Europe. I was originally hoping that there would be a pattern visible there. But thus far, from all I heard, there is just a pattern of patternlessness. :disappointed:

rms2
17-07-10, 14:03
Well, can you pinpoint to any specific project(s)? As I said, it would be cool to see lists/tables (or perhaps a graphic, even though that's hard to display?) of the various subclades of P312 distributed across Europe. I was originally hoping that there would be a pattern visible there. But thus far, from all I heard, there is just a pattern of patternlessness. :disappointed:

Two sources for U152 are David Faux's R-U152 page (http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Data.htm) and FTDNA's R1b-U152 Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/default.aspx).

Unfortunately, the latter is not organized geographically, which makes picking out the Irish versus everybody else difficult.

The R-L21 Plus Project is here (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21/default.aspx). Check out all its pages. There are a couple of Google maps on the Results page that show the distribution of L21 on the European continent and in the British Isles.

Here are links to some other important FTDNA projects:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/atlantic-r1b1c/default.aspx?/publicwebsite.aspx%3fsection=results&section=yresults

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/frenchheritage/default.aspx?section=yresults

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Normandy/default.aspx?section=yresults

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bretagne/default.aspx?section=yresults

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/IberianDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/benelux/default.aspx?section=yresults

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/scandinavianydna/default.aspx?section=yresults

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Italy/default.aspx?section=yresults

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/polish/default.aspx?section=yresults

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Czech/default.aspx?section=yresults

Hope those help.

Maciamo
28-08-10, 08:35
I have split the discussion about R1* in North America, Austronesia and Australia (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25951)

YLLIRJANIngaYLLIRIA
04-09-10, 21:25
No offence, but the first page of this thread with the "data" is almost laughable.


You are assuming that ancient people's DNA is the same as the people who inhabit those same territories today, which is nonsense.


For example, Bulgarian DNA is not Thracian. Bulgarian are a Turkic people, who mixed with Slavs, therefore FOREIGN to the Thracian territory.

Also, the other tribes such as Thracia, Dacia, Illyria, Macedonia, Ancient Greece etc. covered VAST area of land, meaning that it's childish to assume that ALL Illyrians had the same DNA, or all Ancient Greeks, etc.

Slavery occured in those times as well, meaning people mixed.


And there is no such thing as "Roman DNA" because ancient Rome is described as being a mix of Indo Europeans of all over the continent, and even of free slaves from North Africa. Not to mention the Germanic, Mongoloid DNA, etc. that came to the Italian peninsula through invasions.


And Ancient Greeks coming from modern day Ukraine only a theory, a theory which is NOT supported by many historians, which says that the Indo European Urheimat was above the black sea. There are also theories which claim the Indo European Urheimat in the Balkans, or in Anatolia.

I am sorry, i don't mean to offend the starter of this thread, but it's a joke.

elly
17-09-10, 18:42
Maciamo,

Can you help with this? My cousin, whose surname is Wolfe, has a Haplogroup T 'Y' Chromosome that comes from Galicia, Western Ukraine. Any idea of the origin of his 'Y'?

Richard Coyle
01-10-10, 02:57
Thanks for the info, Maciamo.

willy
02-11-10, 02:21
Here is a summary of the current genetic knowledge regarding ancient ethnic groups. This is based on Y-chromosome DNA haplogroups only. For the latest Y-DNA haplogroup tree check the ISOGG's website (http://isogg.org/tree/index.html).


The ancient Egyptians

Based on the modern population of Egypt, and removing the foreign elements, it is reasonable to assume that the ancient Egyptians belonged primarily to haplogroups E1b1b and T. Nowadays about half of the Egyptian paternal lines could be descended from invaders, notably from the Arabic peninsula (hg J1, about 1/3 of the population), but also from Greece, Anatolia and Persia.

The ancient Persians

Iran has a heterogeneous populations when it comes to Y-DNA. Percentages vary greatly between East and West, and from North to South. Ancient Persia was less diverse, but still very mixed by ancient standards. Its ethnic composition prior to the Greek, Arabic and Mongol invasions was probably made of about 40% of haplogroup J (J1 being more predominant in the South and J2 in the North), 25% of hg R1a, 15% of hg F (possibly including G's), 10% of hg G and 10% of hg H, I, K and L.

The ancient Babylonians

Babylonians and Assyrians belonged mostly to haplogroup J (mostly J2, but with some J1 in southern Mesopotamia) with a minority of E1b1b, G and K. Haplogroup G is more common around the Caucasus.

The ancient Greek & Romanss

=> See post #3 below.

The ancient Celts

It is now believed that the ancient Celts were by a very large majority R1b people. Many subclades of R1b divide the various geographic groups of Celts. 2500 years ago, British and Irish Celts belonged mostly to the subclade R1b-L21. Celts from Iberia and south-west Gaul were R1b-M167, while the other Gauls, from central France to southern Germany to northern Italy, belonged to R1b-U152. Further subgroups exist for all these clades (see Origins of European haplogroups (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml)).

The ancient Germanic people

The three main haplogroups associated with Germanic people are I1, I2b1 and R1b-U106. The latter is an old pre-Celtic branch of R1b mostly found around Frisia. These people are thought to have mixed with I1 people to form the ancient Germanic culture. In Scandinavia R1a is also quite common, although its presence could have predated a Germanic expansion from northern Germany, Denmark and southern Sweden.

The ancient Slavs

Present-day Eastern Slavs are descended from the ancient Kurgan culture of the Eurasian steppes. The Scythians were the branch of R1a that remained in the steppes of from whom modern Russians are descended (along with other haplogroups). Slavic Europeans belonged to haplogroup R1a and I2. Southern Slavs have a much higher proportion of I2 (notably in the Croatia).

Eastern Europeans from the Danubian basin and the Balkans have also inherited a sizeable percentage of haplogroup E (and some G and T) from the expansion Neolithic farmers that started from northern Greece 7,000 years ago (Linear Pottery culture).

The ancient Indians

The Indo-Aryan people who invaded the Indian peninsula from Central Asia and Iran 3,500 years ago belonged mostly to haplogroups R1a, with also some R2 and J2. This is known from the analysis of Y-DNA of the upper castes of Indian society (the Brahmins and the Kshatriyas), thought to be descended from the Indo-Aryans with minimal admixture on the paternal side. The native Dravidians belonged to the indigenous South Asian haplogroups F, H and L.

The ancient Chinese

Haplogroup O is associated with the Han ethnicity, as well as most of the people of East Asia and Polynesia. Nowadays O2a is the most common in northern China, and O1a in southern China.

The ancient Japanese

Modern Japanese people are composed of two ancient ethnicities : the Yayoi people, who migrated from the Korean peninsula about 2,300 years ago, bringing with them agriculture; and the Jomon people, the hunter-gathers who had lived on the archipelago for millennia before that. The Yayoi were hg O people, like the Chinese and Koreans. The Jomon belonged mostly to the rare haplogroup D (also found in Tibet and in the Andamans, some of the most isolated places on Earth). For more information see The Origin of Japanese people (http://www.wa-pedia.com/history/origins_japanese_people.shtml).

The ancient Americans

Be them nomadic tribes from North America, Aztecs, Mayas, Quechuas or cannibals from Amazonia, almost all native Americans belonged to haplogroup Q1a3a, but a minority of hg C existed in North America.

Yes but R1a in India predate the Aryan Invasion some particular subclades of R1a were involved in the Indo Europeans

how yes no 2
05-11-10, 19:30
Yes but R1a in India predate the Aryan Invasion some particular subclades of R1a were involved in the Indo Europeans
khm,
according to "DNA Genealogy, Mutation Rates, and Some Historical Evidences Written in Y-Chromosome" - Anatole A. Klyosov http://precedings.nature.com/documents/2733/version/1/files/npre20082733-1.pdf


a common ancestor of the Eurasian R1a1 haplotype lived between 4,100 and 4,900 years ago. An exception is presented only in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia), where a common ancestor is significantly more ancient, about 11,500 years bp. This will be explored below in this section.



The obtained data suggest that the first bearers of R1a1 haplogroup lived in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia) about 11,600 years bp.


The data shown above suggests that only about 6,000-5,000 years bp bearers of R1a1 began to mobilize and migrate to the west toward the Atlantics, to the north toward the Baltic Sea and Scandinavia, to the east to the Russian plains and steppes, to the south to Asia Minor, the Middle East, and far south to the Arabian Sea. All of those local R1a1 haplotypes point at their common ancestors who lived from 4,800 to 4,000 years bp. On their way through the Russian plains and steppes the R1a1 tribe presumably sat up the Kurgan archaeological culture, apparently domesticated the horse, advanced to Central Asia and left the “Aryan population” which dated to 4,500 years bp. They then moved to the Ural mountains about 4,000 years bp and migrated to India as the Aryans circa 3,600-3,500 years bp. Presently, 16% of the male Indian population, or approximately 100 million people, bear R1a1 haplogroup’s SNP mutation, with their common ancestor of 3,675 years bp. The current Indian R1a1 haplotypes are practically indistinguishable from Russian, Ukrainian, and Central Asian R1a1 haplotypes, as well as from many West and Central European R1a1 haplotypes. They correspond closely to the Indo-European language family.

willy
06-11-10, 12:04
khm,
according to "DNA Genealogy, Mutation Rates, and Some Historical Evidences Written in Y-Chromosome" - Anatole A. Klyosov http://precedings.nature.com/documents/2733/version/1/files/npre20082733-1.pdf

Anatole A. Klyosov yes ..so the subclades found in India are not the same than to the Europeans and the Baltic the eastern subclade never went to India I don't believe Klyosov all his work is controversial and not official :useless:

how yes no 2
06-11-10, 14:02
Anatole A. Klyosov yes ..so the subclades found in India are not the same than to the Europeans and the Baltic the eastern subclade never went to India I don't believe Klyosov all his work is controversial and not official :useless:

what is confusing for me is that Serbs are supposed to be Slavic tribe, but they have very little R1a (14.5%) and now with Klyosov it turns out that even that 14.5% was most likely already there since otherwise there would be other regions with ancient old common R1a1 ancestor...
but than I see that in area of ancient Macedonia R1a is also much higher than in any nearby Slavic country... so, he might be right... besides Balkan was ice age refuge... so it makes sense that R1a1 (and perhaps some other haplogroups) repopulated Europe (and Asia) from there...

secherbernard
06-11-10, 18:45
Anatole A. Klyosov yes ..so the subclades found in India are not the same than to the Europeans and the Baltic the eastern subclade never went to India I don't believe Klyosov all his work is controversial and not official :useless:
Why not official? Is the Journal of Genetic Genealogy not an official journal ?
See: http://www.jogg.info/52/index.html pages 186 and 217
Klyosov work is not more controversial than Balaresque or Myres one.

Durazzo
12-11-10, 00:26
Ancient Greeks

Pelasgians (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I, E-V13, T and G2a. E-V13 and T probably arrived in Greece from the Levant (and ultimately from Egypt, hence the small percentage of T) in the early Neolithic, 8,500 years ago. G2a came from the Caucasus approximately 6,000 years ago as herders of sheep and goats (and early miners ?).
Hello Maciamo

I want to ask when you say acent Greece you mean Macadonia and Albania of today?

Marianne
12-11-10, 13:22
Ancient Greeks

Pelasgians (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I, E-V13, T and G2a. E-V13 and T probably arrived in Greece from the Levant (and ultimately from Egypt, hence the small percentage of T) in the early Neolithic, 8,500 years ago. G2a came from the Caucasus approximately 6,000 years ago as herders of sheep and goats (and early miners ?).
Hello Maciamo

I want to ask when you say acent Greece you mean Macadonia and Albania of today?

When he says Greece he means Greece of the past and today. That is from Macedonia (not FYROM) and all the way down to the south parts of Greece. Pelasgians and Helladic Greeks lived in the Modern Greek mainland.

Albania and FYROM don't really fit in this territory, except for North Epirus in Albania that has a Greek minority still living there today

DejaVu
12-11-10, 20:51
Albania and FYROM don't really fit in this territory?
Maybe not all but some parts are if Ancient Macedonia is included.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Macedonia_and_the_Aegean_World_c.200.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Macedonia_and_the_Aegean_World_c.200.png)
Kingdom of Macedon on the eve of the Second Macedonian War, circa 200 BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Location_greek_ancient.png
The Greek world in the mid 6th century BC.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/AntikeGriechen1.jpg/800px-AntikeGriechen1.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/AntikeGriechen1.jpg)
Greek cities & colonies circa 550 BC.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_peoples
The "Sklavinias" in the Balkans, 7th - 8th centuries
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Slavic_tribes_in_the_Balkans.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Slavic_tribes_in_the_Balkans.png)

All Sklavinias disappeared?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(region)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Greater_Macedonia.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Greater_Macedonia.png)
Modern Macedonia is divided (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_(terminology)#Subregions) by the national boundaries of Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece) (Greek Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece))), the Republic of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia), Bulgaria (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Bulgaria) (Blagoevgrad Province (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Blagoevgrad_Province)), Albania (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Albania) (Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mala_Prespa_and_Golo_Brdo)), Serbia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Serbia) (Prohor Pčinjski (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Prohor_P%C4%8Dinjski) and Gora (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Gora_(region))).

As seen on map Sklavinia in Macedonia (map 1913) and Greece, is not Bulgarian or Serbian.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Macodnian_Sklavinia.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups
Y-DNA haplogroups by ethnic groups
Listed here are notable ethnic groups (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ethnic_groups) by Y-DNA (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Y-DNA) haplogroups (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Haplogroups) based on relevant studies. The data is presented in two columns for each haplogroup with the first being the sample size (n) and the second the percentage in the haplogroup designated by the column header. The samples are taken from individuals identified with the ethnic and linguistic designations in the first two columns.


E1b1b

Albania: 21.6% & 25.5% (2 tests)
Kosovo: 47.4%
Greece: 20.8%, 23.8% & 31.6% (3 tests)
Macedonia (FYROM): 24.1%
Bulgaria: 20.7%
Serbia: 21.2%
Egypt: 43.5%


http://clyde.winters.tripod.com/chapter6.html


THE BLACK GREEKS
To deny the African origin of Grecian civilization the Eurocentrists attack Martin Bernal's book: Black Athena. This book has nothing to do with Afrocentrism. In the two volumes published thus far, Bernal maintains that Semites from Phoenicia and the Semitic Hyksos speaking rulers of Egypt, took civilization to Greece, not Black Africans.
J.A. Rogers in Sex and Race, Parker, Diop and DuBois on the other hand, are Afrocentric scholars. These scholars have reviewed the writings of the classical authors, the anthropological, linguistic and historical evidence to reach the conclusion that the ancient Greeks were blacks and that the European Greeks learned the liberal arts and sciences from their "black ancestors" who first settled Greece and the Egyptians.
According to the Olympian Creation Myth the earliest groups to appear on earth were the Libyco-Thracians .The Libyans were Proto-Saharans, as were the original Thracians. Some Thracians were descendants of the Kushite and Egyptian troops established at Trace, by Sesostris (Thutmose III or Ramses II), when he conquered Asia and Europe.(Diop 1991; Winters 1983a,1984b,1985a)
Many of the so-called Greek myths are in reality historical texts which show the ancient lifestyle of the pre-Aryans in Greece and the transition from Pelasgian matriarchy to Greek-Aryan patriarchy. The term Amazon was often used by the Aryans to denote matriarchal societies living on the Black Sea. The battle between Thesus and the Amazons, led by Queen Melanippe, records the conflicts between the ancient Aryan-Greeks and the Libyans settled around the Black Sea.
Dr. Lefkowitz (1992) and Snowden (1992,1976) perpetuate the myth that the only blacks in ancient Europe were slaves or mercenaries. This is false the Greek historical works make it clear that many ancient settlers of the Aegean came from Africa , especially the Garamantes and Pelasgians. G. W. Parker wrote that: "I need not go into details concerning the ethnical relations of the Romans, since they, too are Mediterranean and are closely related to the same African confederation of races ...[situated in Greece]. Aeneas, their mythical founder of Troy. The Aenead, like the Illiad, and Odyssey and all other of the world's great epics, is the poetic story dealing with African people". The heroes of these tales used long shields, the characteristic shields of the Indo-European speaking Greeks were round.
The Eurocentrists attempt to prove there was "considerable cultural and linguistic continuity from the twelfth century to the eight century BC" ,in the Aegean . Yet there is no way it can be proven that Indo-European Greeks have always been in Greece. This view on the continuity between the Linear B Greeks and later Greeks held by Lefkowitz is disputed by Hopper who noted that " after all, so much which characterizes Minoan Crete seems wholly alien to later Greece, despite the efforts of scholars to detect 'continuity' " .


THE PELASGIANS
The Greeks often called the first inhabitants of Greece Pelasgians. The Greek writers claimed that Pelasgus, the great ancestor of the Pelasgians was the first man. The Pelasgians were a combination of diverse Black tribes which included the Achaeans , Kadmeans, and Leleges. The Garamantes were also often called Pelasgians by some classical writers. Strabo said "that the Pelasgi, as indeed the most ancient nation, were diffused through all Greece, and especially among the Aeolians".
The city of Argo was founded by Phoroneus, the father of Pelasgus, Iasus and Agenor. It was these folks who divided the Peloponnese between them.
Herodotus referred to the Pelasgians as "venerable ancestors". He said that the first Athenians "they were Pelasgi, the later possessing the country now designed Hellas". The Pelasgian founding of Athens is also noted by Plutarch in Theseus 12, and Ovid in Metamorphosis vii.402ff. According to Herodotus vii.91, the Pelasgians also founded Thebes in Europe. Pausanias, noted that "The Arcadians make mention of Pelasgus as the first person who existed in their country. From this king the whole region took the name Pilasgia". Hopper noted that the Pelasgians founded Attica.
The Black immigrants from Canaan were also settled in the Aegean at Argolis. They called themselves the "Sons of Abas". Many of the Melampodes later took part of Argolis away from the Canaanites.
The earliest Greek alphabet was made by the Pelasgians, it was lost and later reintroduced by Kadmus to Boeotia. Another Pelasgian, Evander of Arcadia introduced writing to the Italians. This script was used to make the first fifteen characters of the Latin script according to Pliny and Plutarch.


EGYPTIANS
The Egyptians established many colonies in ancient Europe. The Egyptians called themselves Melampodes or "Blackfeet". The Egyptians were also called Danaans in Greek history. According to Hyainus in Fabula, and Apollonius Rhodius when the Danaans came to Greece they were a combination of diverse African tribes.
When the Danaans came to Greece they took away part of Argolis from the Canaanites. The Danaans took the Mysteries of Themoporia and the oracle of Dodona to Greece. This view is supported by the discovery of an inscribed stone in the Peloponnese that had Egyptian writing on it dating to the Vth Dynasty of Egypt. Greek traditions speak of Egyptian colonies founded by Cecrops who settled Atica, Danaus the brother of Aegyptus was the founder of Argolis. Danaus is alleged to have taught the Greeks agriculture and metallurgy.


MYCENEANS
The ancient Myceneans were Blacks. These ancient people came from Crete, and the Western Sahara. Alain Anselin has shown how many of these Myceneans spoke Dravidian languages especially the Termils of Asia Minor.
The cities of Troy, Mycenae, Tiryns, Thebes and Orochomenos were founded by the Eteocretans or "Real Minoans", as opposed to the later Greco-Cretans. These Eteocretans spoke a Manding language.


Achaeans
By 1200 BC, much of the Mycenae civilization was under the control the Achaeans. The Achaeans later founded other city-states in Greece. After conquering the Mycenaeans, the Achaeans formed the Greek states of Peloponnesus. Their major cities: Mycenae and Tiryns in Argolis, and Pylos Messenia were originally founded by other Pelasgian groups.


When he says Greece he means Greece of the past and today?
What greeks are we talking about? Ancient and todays greeks are same since when?

Marianne
13-11-10, 13:34
Do you really believe that you are being serious right now?!
Your country's propaganda doesn't fit in a forum where people have common sense.

As for the black Greeks etc and Greeks not being the same as in the past, DNA studies in skeletons found from Ancient Greece reveal that Greeks have the same DNA since 5000 years now, with 99.5% of it being European. Now if you want to troll with false data go some place else and continue your propaganda.

I don't know why you slavs are trying so hard to convince other people that you come from ancient Greeks but it would be better to embrace your true identity. After all with the way you act you are being racists against your true nature.

PS Us Greeks are so black I don't really know how we got accepted to the EU... :

http://www.elliniki-grothia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/parelasi_OYK.jpg

http://www.trikalanews.gr/adminpanel/editor/assets/NEWS/IMG_6887_resize.jpg

DejaVu
13-11-10, 18:53
What greeks are we talking about? Ancient and todays greeks are same since when?

This is facts not propaganda.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnauts

Arnaut (آرناﺌود) is the Turkish (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Turkish_language) word for the people of Albania (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Albania). Arnauts in modern Turkey (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Turkey) are people of Albanian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Albanians) descent. Historically in the Ottoman Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ottoman_Empire), the word often referred to mercenary (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mercenary) soldiers from Albania or from the surrounding mountainous region.[1] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-0)
Arnaut is also the Turkish name for Arvanites (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Arvanites), while Arvanites itself is the Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language) version of Arbëreshë (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Arb%C3%ABresh%C3%AB), the name ethnic Albanians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Albanians) called themselves until 250 years ago.
In Serbia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Serbia), the term Arnauti or Arnautaši was used in the 18th century by Serbian ethnographers for "Albanized Serbs"[2] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-1), Serbs (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Serbs) that converted to Islam (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Islam) and went through a process of Albanisation (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Albanisation).[3] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-2)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

Arvanites (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Αρβανίτες, Arvanitika (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Arvanitika): Arbëreshë or Αρbε̰ρεσ̈ε̰) are a population group in Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece) who traditionally speak Arvanitika (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Arvanitika), a dialect of the Albanian language (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Albanian_language). They settled in Greece during the late Middle Ages (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Middle_Ages) and were the dominant population element of some regions of the Peloponnese (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Peloponnese) and Attica (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Attica) until the 19th century.[1] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-Hall29-0)They call themselves Arvanites (in Greek) and Arbëror (in their language); but in Northwestern Greece, in their language, they use the term Shqiptar (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Shqiptar) (the same used by Albanians of Albania), a term strongly disliked by the other Arvanites, who also resent being called Albanians.[2] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-1) Arvanites today self-identify as Greeks (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greeks)[3] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-2) as the result of a process of assimilation. Arvanitika is in a state of attrition (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Language_attrition) due to language shift (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Language_shift) towards Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language) and large-scale internal migration to the cities and subsequent intermingling of the population during the 20th century.

Arvanites were regarded as ethnically distinct from the Greeks in the 19th century, while their participation in the Greek War of Independence (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence) and the Greek Civil War (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_Civil_War) has led to increasing assimilation.[1] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-Hall29-0) The common Christian Orthodox (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church) religion they shared with the rest of the local population was one of the main reasons that led to their assimilation.[28] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-27) Although sociological studies of Arvanite communities still used to note an identifiable sense of a special "ethnic" identity among Arvanites, the authors did not identify a sense of 'belonging to Albania or to the Albanian nation'.[29] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-28) Many Arvanites find the designation "Albanians" offensive as they identify nationally and ethnically as Greeks (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greeks) and not Albanians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Albanians).

http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html
Likewise, Arvanitika has never been included in the educational curricula of the modern Greek state. On the contrary, its use has been strongly discouraged at schools (and in the army) through physical punishment, humiliation, or, in recent years, simple incitation of the Arvanitika users (Williams, 1992:86; Trudgill, 1983:130-1). Such attitudes have led many Arvanite (as well as Vlach, and Macedonian) parents to discourage their children from learning their mother tongue so as to avoid similar discrimination and suffering (Trudgill, 1983:130).

Most Arvanites have traditionally lived in Central and Southern Greece: in most departments of the regions of Continental Greece (Sterea Ellada) and the Peloponnese (including especially most islands corresponding to these areas) and the Cyclades island of Andros. Arvanites also live near the Albanian border, in most departments of Epirus and in the Florina and Kastoria departments of Macedonia; also, in the border (with Turkey) department of Evros (in Thrace) and in the Salonica department (where they settled along with other Orthodox refugees from Eastern Thrace, in the 1920’s). Like the rest of the population, since the 1950s, Arvanites have been emigrating from their villages to the cities and especially to the capital Athens, which, incidentally, was a mainly Albanian (Arvanite) small town in the early 1800’s, before becoming the Greek state’s capital (Nakratzas, 1992:87-8). It appears that urbanization has been leading to the loss of the use of the language, which has been surviving more in the traditional villages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlos_Kountouriotis
Pavlos Kountouriotis (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Παύλος Κουντουριώτης, 9 April 1855 - 22 August 1935) was a Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece) admiral (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Admiral) and naval hero during the Balkan Wars (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Balkan_Wars) and the first and third (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/List_of_heads_of_state_of_Greece#Second_Hellenic_R epublic_.281924-1935.29) President of the Second Hellenic Republic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/President_of_Greece).
Pavlos Kountouriotis was a member of the Arvanite (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Arvanites) Kountouriotis family which originated from the island of Hydra, Saronic Islands (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hydra,_Saronic_Islands) as many of the heroes of 1821; many members of the family took part in the Greek War of Independence (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence), including his grandfather, Georgios Kountouriotis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Georgios_Kountouriotis), who was Prime Minister of Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Prime_Minister_of_Greece) under King Otto (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Otto_of_Greece). The original family name was Zervas but was changed to Kountouriotis, since one of their ancestors lived for a while in the village of Kountoura, Megarida.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece
Otto Frederick, prince of Bavaria or Othon, king of Greece (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Ὄθων, Βασιλεὺς τῆς Ἑλλάδος, Óthon, Vasiléfs tis Elládos; 1 June 1815 – 26 July 1867) was made the first modern King (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/List_of_Greek_monarchs) of Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Kingdom_of_Greece) in 1832 under the Convention of London (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/London_Conference_of_1832), whereby Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece) became a new independent kingdom under the protection of the Great Powers (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Great_Powers) (the United Kingdom (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/United_Kingdom_of_Great_Britain_and_Ireland), France (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/July_Monarchy) and the Russian Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Russian_Empire)).


DNA studies in skeletons found from Ancient Greece reveal that Greeks have the same DNA since 5000 years now, with 99.5% of it being European?
Please link to the genetic study.

LeBrok
13-11-10, 19:20
Marianne, 99.5% ??? I remember one time you posted that populations in villages are more ancient and considered original, than Greeks in cities, where many are darker skin and brown eye and immigrated from other places.
So what if today's Greeks were different than ancient inhabitants. You wouldn't deserve a place to live?

You Slavs? Sorry Marian but this sounds very chauvinistic.
Being on sides of discussions of Greeks, Macedonians, Turks and Balkans in general, I can acknowledge that all of the parties use propaganda in their claims to territories or from what great cultures and warriors they are coming from. I'm sure it's cultural and these are the effects of years of listening to your governments propaganda in schools. I know what I'm talking about I experienced this in my country. Short exercise: make a survey who's countries soldiers were the bravest of all in WW2. You'll get as many answers as nationalities, and all will have stories and arguments to support it. Except French maybe, lol.
Are they all right? Can't be!
That's an eye opener how wrong we all could be, even though we swear we are right!

Unbelievable is that people from same regions, almost brothers and sisters, hate each others so much, can't find a common ground, can't except one another and their point of view.

Marianne
15-11-10, 01:21
Marianne, 99.5% ??? I remember one time you posted that populations in villages are more ancient and considered original, than Greeks in cities, where many are darker skin and brown eye and immigrated from other places.

Yeah I said of course that people in the villages are not mixed but I didn’t mean the others were mixed recently or much. I meant since ancient years the mixing in these areas has been more than in the isolated parts of Greece. They are darker than the rest but that doesn't mean they are dark. They are clearly Europeans and above all Greeks.

Yes according to surveys, Greeks have one of the smallest % of Sub-Saharan DNA.
For example

The haplotypes have been detected in Portugal (3%), Spain (0.42%), Germany (2%), Austria (0.78%), France (2.5% in a very small sample), Italy (0.45%), Sardinia (1.6%) and Greece (0.27%).


So what if today's Greeks were different than ancient inhabitants. You wouldn't deserve a place to live?
I didn't say that. The problem is a different one and you can't understand it fully because you have never come to the situation us Greeks are in.

Our civilization, whether this is good or bad, has a huge history, since ancient times. Our ancestors, Plato, Archimedes, Socrates, etc are known worldwide, and our contribution to the Western World has been huge for example the Battle in Marathon, Thermopylae, Democracy etc. For reasons that serve certain political plans, certain groups of people are trying, with their propaganda, to separate us from our ancestors, our history and our civilization. This is insulting to Greeks and believe it or not, it hurts. We have been the same since ancient times. The way we look, the way we speak, certain expressions we use, the way we live, have all been the same since 3000BC. And some people who have no idea about our nation are trying to prove to us that we are not who we are.

Maybe you don't get it cause Canada (by Europeans) doesn't have the history we have, but how would you feel if someone came to you one day and told you that you are not the grandson of your grandfather, that you do not belong in this family, that you don't have the right to use your last name, that you don't deserve a part of your family's property etc, even though you look just like your grandfather, the DNA test you did proves you are his grandson, you have lived in your house from the day you were born and you know for sure that you are who you say you are?

That is how Greeks feel every time someone tells us that we are mixed with Turks for example, even though we know that women raped by Turks would commit suicide, that Greeks and Turks wouldn't marry each other cause of religion issues etc, so the mixing was practically zero

And yes I know that nowadays our country isn't what it used to be, we don't have much to offer to the world at the moment, as we did in the past, but that doesn't mean that we are not original Greeks. If your father is the most successful person in the world it doesn't mean you will also be one.

We were enslaved under turkish rule for 400 years, while the rest of Europe was blooming after the Dark Ages, so we missed that. After that (around 1830) we ended up with loans from European countries in order to rebuild our country and free other parts of Greece, that we paid up around 1980. We were admitted a German king that had no ties with Greeks, our history, and civilization and didn't care for our wellbeing. We had the Balkan Wars, WWI, then dictatorship, then WW2, then civil war, then dictatorship again, and now we are a country with 30 years of democracy and we are trying to figure out how to pay our dept that 5-10 corrupted politicians, who made the people believe they were sent from above to save the country, created around 1980 (right after we paid up the 1830 one). So I think we are doing pretty well if you consider all that.


You Slavs? Sorry Marian but this sounds very chauvinistic.
Being on sides of discussions of Greeks, Macedonians, Turks and Balkans in general, I can acknowledge that all of the parties use propaganda in their claims to territories or from what great cultures and warriors they are coming from. I'm sure it's cultural and these are the effects of years of listening to your governments propaganda in schools. I know what I'm talking about I experienced this in my country. Short exercise: make a survey who's countries soldiers were the bravest of all in WW2. You'll get as many answers as nationalities, and all will have stories and arguments to support it. Except French maybe, lol.
Are they all right? Can't be!
That's an eye opener how wrong we all could be, even though we swear we are right!
Unbelievable is that people from same regions, almost brothers and sisters, hate each others so much, can't find a common ground, can't except one another and their point of view.

I agree with you in everything you say here. But I don't know for example, how you can believe that a country who speaks a slavic dialect that resembles Bulgarian so much can claim they speak Macedonian when the Macedonian language as spoken by Great Alexander and his empire was the Greek language. They claim he was their ancestor while it is proven that he was Greek, and not Slav, since he was able to take part in the Olympics (only Greeks could participate and as they used to say: Anyone not Greek is a barbarian) etc.
I don't say their country wasn't a part of the Macedonian empire. It was, because Great Alexander expanded his kingdom, as he did in Asia Minor and all the way down to India. But I never heard an Asian say he is Macedonian... Why should their country be named as Macedonia when they were just a small part of it. That way they cancel the right of inhabitants of the rest of Macedonia (the biggest part of it) to be named Macedonians.

Since you mentioned WW2, Churchill said that Greeks don't fight like heroes, heroes fight like Greeks. We won the Italians and resisted the Germans for such a long time that they had to delay the war with Russia and ended up fighting them with extremely bad weather conditions and lost. The battle in Crete was a massacre for Germany’s strongest soldiers. I don't say we are the best of the best, but even though we are a country 10 times smaller than France for example, our role was a huge one. We are above all patriots and we don't want to relive being enslaved for another 400 years, so when we must defend our country we do it well.

Eochaidh
15-11-10, 02:19
Since you mentioned WW2, Churchill said that Greeks don't fight like heroes, heroes fight like Greeks.
Winston Churchill said 'Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks'?

Source and other quotes about Greece, including Joseph Stalin thanking the Greeks for giving Russia the time to prepare, on Answer.com: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_it_true_that_Winston_Churchill_said_%27Hence_yo u_will_not_say_that_Greeks_fight_like_heroes_but_t hat_heroes_fight_like_Greeks%27

Marianne
15-11-10, 02:54
Winston Churchill said 'Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks'?

Source and other quotes about Greece, including Joseph Stalin thanking the Greeks for giving Russia the time to prepare, on Answer.com: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_it_true_that_Winston_Churchill_said_%27Hence_yo u_will_not_say_that_Greeks_fight_like_heroes_but_t hat_heroes_fight_like_Greeks%27

Thank you! I didn't know about the last quote by Goethe in your link.

LeBrok
15-11-10, 04:09
Marianne, I understand your points, and your feelings. I'm from Poland, which has complicated history with neighbors too. Did you know what we fought Ottoman Empire too? And Tatars, and Germans, and Russians and Ukrainians, and Swedes, and Lithuanians, and Austrians, and Czechs, I'm sure I missed quite few, and there had domestic wars too. We lost independence for hundreds of years too. We have grivances with neighbours, family stories, and our borders were moved big time back and forth. If I want to dwell on stories and horrors of previous years, I can sit round and indulge the pain, the pain, and more pain. At the end I would hate my all neighbours.
Well I moved forward instead. I have German friends, Russians, Belorussians, Ukrainians, you name them.
The problem is the historic heavy balance of wars and crimes. The solution should be finding a common ground, make few compromises, and move forward with your new friends building a great Europe.
I'm sorry Marianne, but you don't bring solutions to the table. You are just acting like your neighbours want to kill you and take Greece away. Not sure what you are waiting for? Next war? I guess, making friends takes much more effort and compromises than sitting around hating neighbors.

Marianne
15-11-10, 16:25
Marianne, I understand your points, and your feelings. I'm from Poland, which has complicated history with neighbors too. Did you know what we fought Ottoman Empire too? And Tatars, and Germans, and Russians and Ukrainians, and Swedes, and Lithuanians, and Austrians, and Czechs, I'm sure I missed quite few, and there had domestic wars too. We lost independence for hundreds of years too. We have grivances with neighbours, family stories, and our borders were moved big time back and forth. If I want to dwell on stories and horrors of previous years, I can sit round and indulge the pain, the pain, and more pain. At the end I would hate my all neighbours.
Well I moved forward instead. I have German friends, Russians, Belorussians, Ukrainians, you name them.
The problem is the historic heavy balance of wars and crimes. The solution should be finding a common ground, make few compromises, and move forward with your new friends building a great Europe.
I'm sorry Marianne, but you don't bring solutions to the table. You are just acting like your neighbours want to kill you and take Greece away. Not sure what you are waiting for? Next war? I guess, making friends takes much more effort and compromises than sitting around hating neighbors.
I don't hate my neighbors.

I posted where Greece is 5 posts above and then some ethnic FYROMian started posting his propaganda, saying that Greeks are Blacks, Asians etc (I'm surprised he didn't call us Amerindians). What should I do? Not reply? I think my reaction was very civilized. He continued posting his propaganda and I just ignored him.

I have nothing against my neighbors. I had classmates who were immigrants from Albania, last year I had 1 Turkish student and 2 Bulgarians. The problem is that certain people filled with their country's propaganda attack my country and therefore myself. You must have noticed that I have never started such a conversation in this forum without being provoked first.
If I hated my neighbors and wanted to provoke them I would have asked Maciamo for example to edit all posts with the word Macedonia and rename it to FYROM since that is the official name for the moment, or to remove Turkey from the European maps etc. I'm not irrational though and I don't bring up such matters, unless I am provoked.

Your old neighbors for sure aren't as propagandistic as mine. They are civilized people who are more or less rational and believe in cooperation between countries. In this forum I was able to have a decent debate with only one Turk and zero people from FYROM...

I believe in friendship between countries too, I watch Turkish series on tv, I vote for the Albanian song in Eurovision (:grin:) and I am very open to conversations with people who are willing to have a decent chat with me. But friendship includes both sides willing to cooperate. In the Macedonia issue Greece has proposed several names that could please both countries, like Nova Macedonia or North Macedonia etc which don't cancel the right of the rest of Macedonians to be called like that. But they just don't want to cooperate unless the name is Macedonia, or Republic of Macedonia. We are way more rational than them. You should refer to them about being rational and cooperating with your neighbors.

LeBrok
15-11-10, 18:30
Cool :)
Just give them the Macedonia name. That's the compromises we have to do for the friendship among neighbors. ;)

DejaVu
15-11-10, 18:39
DNA studies in skeletons found from Ancient Greece reveal that Greeks have the same DNA since 5000 years now, with 99.5% of it being European?

Yes according to surveys, Greeks have one of the smallest % of Sub-Saharan DNA?

When he says Greece he means Greece of the past and today?
What greeks are we talking about? Ancient and todays greeks are same since when?

I posted where Greece is 5 posts above and then some ethnic FYROMian started posting his propaganda, saying that Greeks are Blacks, Asians etc?
J.A. Rogers in Sex and Race, Parker, Diop and DuBois on the other hand, are Afrocentric scholars. These scholars have reviewed the writings of the classical authors, the anthropological, linguistic and historical evidence to reach the conclusion that the ancient Greeks were blacks and that the European Greeks learned the liberal arts and sciences from their "black ancestors" who first settled Greece and the Egyptians.

What do this have to do with me? I am calling you black or you dont understand english?
Greeks cant handle other views of the truth?

Albania and FYROM don't really fit in this territory, except for North Epirus in Albania that has a Greek minority still living there today?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece
Ancient greek cities.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/27/Ancient_Greek_cities.PNG/568px-Ancient_Greek_cities.PNG (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/27/Ancient_Greek_cities.PNG)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Diadochen1.png/800px-Diadochen1.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Diadochen1.png)
This Maps show that some parts of Macedonia (FYROM) is included in ancient Greece.

Show me the evidence link please or I am going to post alot of facts not propaganda showing the fake country greece with mixed not original antic people. If you dont understand this I am going to make it clear for you its about you are claiming same people antic greeks live in todays greece only.


You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!
From the movie, "A Few Good Men".

Marianne
16-11-10, 16:03
Cool :)
Just give them the Macedonia name. That's the compromises we have to do for the friendship among neighbors. ;)

It doesn't work like that. They are not the only Macedonians. And by calling them like that you deny the right of the rest to be called Macedonians. And they are the biggest percentage.

There are many other problems except for this one, historical of course, but also modern ones. I will not analyse them here because it is the wrong thread. But if you read the post from Dejavu right below yours, you will realise what I mean when I say that these people are filled to the bone with irrational propaganda. You cannot have a decent conversation with them so I will not bother replying to him anymore.

I have 220 posts and I've never started a fight, provoked or insulted anyone in this forum and he has 15 and all of them are pure trolling against Greece and in favor of FYROM.

iapodos
16-11-10, 18:17
The problem with all newly created nations is their megalomania as a a response to a lack of self confidence. So, the Slavs in region of Macedonia usurping the name of antic Macedonia, Muslim Bosniacs usurping name of medieval Bosnian state, Albanians usurping the name of Illyrians and so on. But I find also quite intriguing way the modern Greeks find themselves as direct descendants of ancient Greeks, especially if we talk about Hellenic civilization. I really can not see that direct line which conects Platon with sirtaki and giros. But maybe it is just lack of imagination.

LeBrok
16-11-10, 18:47
Again, being on sidelines, I don't see more propaganda in his posts than in yours, or maybe yours are just the romanticized view of your country and history.

Does any country have right to be called whatever they want? It's not your choice, it's theirs, and you chose to be a difficult neighbor!
What about if we call Greece something different, just to reserve Greece name for ancient culture, which was way different than today's Greece. Different religion, different architecture, different economy, somewhat different language, different political structure, different traditions, even creativity level was different (not to say higher, which tells me that there were genetic changes in the population, and you'll see it when more ancient DNA is analyzed in the future.
At the end of a day, if you want me to call you Greece, I call you Greece.
Marianne, these different points of view about Greece come as shock to you, and you blame others for bad intentions. That's not the reason in most of the cases (yes in some). You have to realize that your view of Greece is very idealistic, romanticized, full of government propaganda and colourful family stories about past events.
I went through it myself. When I left Poland and I was shocked that there is other side of same stories that they taught me in school or at home. At the beginning I was correcting people, but then I noticed that they make sense too, and often the side views are more balanced and neutral. Very often there is no one truth, there are just opinions on subjects.

Regulus
16-11-10, 21:41
It doesn't work like that. They are not the only Macedonians. And by calling them like that you deny the right of the rest to be called Macedonians. And they are the biggest percentage.

There are many other problems except for this one, historical of course, but also modern ones. I will not analyse them here because it is the wrong thread. But if you read the post from Dejavu right below yours, you will realise what I mean when I say that these people are filled to the bone with irrational propaganda. You cannot have a decent conversation with them so I will not bother replying to him anymore.

I have 220 posts and I've never started a fight, provoked or insulted anyone in this forum and he has 15 and all of them are pure trolling against Greece and in favor of FYROM.

Marianne, It is painfully clear that you are not fighting or trying to start a fight. Yes, of course it hurts when someone with an agenda says " Hey, you know all those great achievements that came out of that region, it wasn't you Greeks, it was other people that did it." Of course it is beyond ridiculous to ascribe these events to ethnic blacks, who incidentally have historically been almost always sub-saharan. There has been a whole jenre of books dedicated to trying to present claims that the foundations of Western Culture were laid by non-Greeks. the entire scheme of theirs is not worth debating as it is sort of like me saying that I invented electricity.

For the record, I will not stand for now being accused of being anti-black.
I am no such person and respect the achievements of cultures and peoples.

DejaVu
16-11-10, 22:05
DNA studies in skeletons found from Ancient Greece reveal that Greeks have the same DNA since 5000 years now, with 99.5% of it being European?

Yes according to surveys, Greeks have one of the smallest % of Sub-Saharan DNA?

When he says Greece he means Greece of the past and today?

What greeks are we talking about? Ancient and todays greeks are same since when?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minorities_in_Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minorities_in_Greece)
Indigenous minorities in Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) are negligible in size compared to Balkan standards.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minorities_in_Greece#cite_note-0) The country is largely ethnically homogeneous. This is mainly due to the population exchanges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer) between Greece and neighboring Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey) (Treaty of Lausanne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lausanne)) and Bulgaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria) (Treaty of Neuilly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Neuilly)), which removed most Muslims (with the exception of the Muslims of Thrace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Thrace)) and those Christian Slavs who did not identify as Greeks, from Greek territory; the treaty also provided for the resettlement of ethnic Greeks from those countries, later to be followed by refugees (see Greek genocide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide), Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(1919-1922)) and Istanbul Pogrom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_Pogrom)). The 2001 census reported a population of 10,964,020 people.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minorities_in_Greece#cite_note-1991census-1)
The main officially recognized "minority" (μειονότητα, meionótita) is the Muslim minority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_minority_of_Greece) (μουσουλμανική μειονότητα, mousoulmanikí meionótita) in Thrace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Thrace), which numbered 97,604 people or 0.95% of the total population according to the 1991 census,[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minorities_in_Greece#cite_note-2) and mainly consists of Turks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_people), Pomaks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomaks) and Roma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_(Romani_subgroup)). Other recognized minority groups are the Armenians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians) numbering approximately 35,000,[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minorities_in_Greece#cite_note-LOCCS-3) and the Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews) (Sephardim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardi_Jews) and Romaniotes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romaniotes)) numbering approximately 5,500.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minorities_in_Greece#cite_note-4)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs)
Vlach (pronounced /ˈvlɑːk/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English) or /ˈvlæk/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English)) or Wallachian is a blanket term covering several modern Latin peoples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_peoples_(linguistic)) descending from the Latinised population in Central (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe), Eastern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe) and Southeastern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Europe). English variations on the name include: Walla, Vallachians, Walachians, Wlachs, Wallachs, Vlahs, Olahs or Ulahs; Groups that have historically been called Vlachs include: modern-day Romanians or Daco-Romanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians), Aromanians or Macedo-Romanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians), Morlachs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morlachs), Megleno-Romanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megleno-Romanians) and Istro-Romanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istro-Romanians). Since the creation of the Romanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania) state, the term in English has mostly been used for those living outside Romania.
The term Vlach is originally an exonym (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exonym). All the Vlach groups used various words derived from romanus (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Romanus) to refer to themselves: Români, Rumâni, Rumâri, Aromâni, Arumâni etc. (note: the Megleno-Romanians nowadays call themselves "Vlaşi", but historically called themselves "Rămâni"; The Istro-Romanians also have adopted the names Vlaşi, but still use Rumâni and Rumâri to refer to themselves).
The Vlachs are normally considered descendants of Romanised peoples such as the Thracians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians) (incl. Dacians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians)) and Illyrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-0).
The Vlach languages, also called the Eastern Romance languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Romance_languages), have a common origin from the Proto-Romanian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Romanian_language). Over the centuries, the Vlachs split into various Vlach groups (see Romania in the Dark Ages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania_in_the_Dark_Ages)) and mixed with neighbouring populations: Slavs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs), Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks), Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians), Cumans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumans), and others.
Almost all modern nations in Central (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe) and Southeastern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Europe) have native Vlach minorities: Hungary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary), Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine), Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia), Croatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia), Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia), Albania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania), Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) and Bulgaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria). In other countries, the native Vlach population have been completely assimilated by the Slavic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs) population and therefore ceased to exist: Poland, Czech Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Republic), Slovakia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovakia), Bosnia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia-Herzegovina) and Montenegro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegro). Only in Romania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania) and the Republic of Moldova (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldova), the Vlach (Dacoromanian or Romanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania) proper) population consist an ethnic majority today.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Valaques-Vlachs.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Valaques-Vlachs.jpg)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Map-balkans-vlachs.png (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/File:Map-balkans-vlachs.png)

There is no official data from Balkan countries such as Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece), Bulgaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria), Albania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania) and Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia). The reasons for this also are not known.


You can figure it out yourself why there is no statistics in these countries.

Daco-Romanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daco-Romanian) (Romanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians) proper) up to 33,500,000 [5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-4)(including Moldovans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldovans)) , speaking the Romanian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_language) (Daco-Romanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daco-Romanian)), known by that name due to their location in the territory of ancient Dacia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia), who live in:

Romania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania) - 20 million
Moldova (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldova) - 3.5 million
Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine) - 400,000; in southern Bessarabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessarabia) and northern Bukovina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukovina)
Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians_of_Serbia) - 30,000 in Vojvodina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vojvodina) and 50,000 up to 400,000[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-5) in Central Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Serbia)
Hungary - 15,000
Bulgaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians_in_Bulgaria) - 11,500 up to 300,000 (1,000 persons counted as "rumuni" and 10,500 persons counted als "vlasi")



Aromanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians) (speaking the Aromanian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanian_language)) up to 2,000,000, live in:

Greece - Up to 700,000,[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-ethnologue.org-6) mainly in the Pindus Mountains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pindus_Mountains) (the Greek government does not recognise any ethnic divisions, so there are no exact statistics. See Demographics of Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Greece))
Albania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania) - Up to 400,000.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-ethnologue.org-6)
Romania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania) - 100,000
Republic of Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia) - 80,000
Bulgaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria) - 10,500 including Vlachs.



Megleno-Romanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megleno-Romanians) (speaking the Megleno-Romanian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megleno-Romanian_language)), living in the region of Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(region)), specifically Greece and the Republic of Macedonia - 20,000.


Istro-Romanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istro-Romanians) (speaking the Istro-Romanian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istro-Romanian_language)) living in Croatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia), with a population of 1,200, but with fewer than 200 acknowledged native speakers.


Morlachs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morlachs) - in the 1991 Croatian census 22 people declared themselves Morlachs. Romanians claim that Nikola Tesla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla) was a Morlach.[according to whom? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view)][citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]


Hutsuls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutsuls) - Slavic speaking Vlachs in Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine)
GeneticsVlachs have a similar genetic structure compared to other southeastern Europeans. Population genetics analyses have demonstrated significant molecular variance among different Vlach groups, suggesting that they do not constitute a homogeneous group.
Bosch et al. attempted to analyze whether Vlachs are the descendents of Latinized Dacians, Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks, or a combination of the above. No hypothesis could be proven due to the high degree of underlying genetic similarity possessed by all the tested Balkan groups. The linguistic and cultural differences among various Balkan groups were thus deemed to be have not been strong enough to prevent significant gene flow among the above groups.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-bosch-7)

Culture
Many Vlachs were shepherds in the medieval times, driving their sheep through the mountains of Southeastern Europe. The Vlach shepherds reached as far as Southern Poland and Moravia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravia) in the North (by following the Carpathian range), Dinaric Alps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinaric_Alps) in West, the Pindus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pindus) mountains in South, and as far as the Caucasus Mountains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus_Mountains) in the east [9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-8).
In many of these areas, the descendants of the Vlachs have lost their language, but their legacy still lives today in cultural influences: customs, folklore and the way of life of the mountain people, as well as in the place names of Romanian or Aromanian origin that are spread all across the region.



Another part of the Vlachs, especially those in the northern parts, in Romania and Moldova, were traditional farmers growing cereals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cereals). Linguists believe that the large vocabulary of Latin words related to agriculture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture) shows that they have always been a farming Vlach population. Just like the language, the cultural links between the Northern Vlachs (Romanians) and Southern Vlachs (Aromanians) were broken by the 10th century, and since then, there were different cultural influences:

Romanian culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Romania) was influenced by neighbouring people such as Slavs and later on Hungarians, and developed itself to what it is today. The 19th century saw an important opening toward Western Europe and cultural ties with France.


Aromanian culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanian_culture) developed initially as a pastoral culture, later to be greatly influenced by the Byzantine and Greek culture.

DejaVu
16-11-10, 22:19
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Balkans

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fa/Map_Byzantine_Empire_1045.svg/800px-Map_Byzantine_Empire_1045.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fa/Map_Byzantine_Empire_1045.svg)
The themes or themata (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): θέματα; singular θέμα, thema) were the main administrative divisions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_division) of the middle Byzantine Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire). They were established in the mid-seventh century in the aftermath of the Muslim conquests (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests) of Byzantine territory and replaced the earlier provincial system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_province#Diocletian.27s_reforms) established by emperors Diocletian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diocletian) and Constantine the Great (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great). In their origin, the first themes were created from the areas of encampment of the field armies of the East Roman army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Roman_army), and their names corresponded to the military units they had resulted from. The theme system reached its apogee in the 9th and 10th centuries, as older themes were split up and the conquest of territory resulted in the creation of new ones. The original theme system underwent significant changes in the 11th and 12th centuries, but the term remained in use as a provincial and financial circumscription, until the very end of the Empire.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c1/Ancient_Tribes.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c1/Ancient_Tribes.png)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Roman_provinces_of_Illyricum%2C_Macedonia%2C_Moesi a%2C_Pannonia_and_Thracia.jpg/740px-Roman_provinces_of_Illyricum%2C_Macedonia%2C_Moesi a%2C_Pannonia_and_Thracia.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Roman_provinces_of_Illyricum%2C_Macedonia%2C_Moesi a%2C_Pannonia_and_Thracia.jpg)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/200AD.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/200AD.png)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/450s.PNG (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/450s.PNG)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Balkans_6th_century.svg/800px-Balkans_6th_century.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Balkans_6th_century.svg)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Venezianische_Kolonien.png/800px-Venezianische_Kolonien.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Venezianische_Kolonien.png)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ee/Bulgaria_Simeon_I_%28893-927%29.svg/627px-Bulgaria_Simeon_I_%28893-927%29.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Bulgaria_Simeon_I_%28893-927%29.svg)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Dusanova_Srbija200.jpg/464px-Dusanova_Srbija200.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Dusanova_Srbija200.jpg)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c4/Balkans_Animation_1800-2006.gif/722px-Balkans_Animation_1800-2006.gif (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Balkans_Animation_1800-2006.gif)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Stielers_Handatlas_1891_50.jpg/705px-Stielers_Handatlas_1891_50.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Stielers_Handatlas_1891_50.jpg)

What does this maps show us?
Occupied territory and not original inhabitants.

how yes no 2
16-11-10, 23:08
What difference would it make whatsoever if ancient Greeks were black? Black skin colour has nothing with genetics. It is adaptation to environment with more sun. Or someone thinks that there was greater plan to settle most white people in areas with least sun, and than to gradually going to more sunny lands use more and more black colour?
We can see it in haplogroups as well... R1a in Europe gives very white man, while in India it gives people with much darker skin.. same is with haplogroup E or R1b in Europe and Africa...

people from Macedonia never had another name, they are for more than thousand years from Macedonia and thus referred to as Macedonians...

As for Greeks claiming that ancient Macedonians were Greeks, I think that's just not true... I remember reading that Macedonians were not allowed (till the time of Alexander Macedonian) to compete in Olympic Games because they were not Greeks...

genetic shows area of ancient Macedonia inside Greece as clearly different from the rest of the Greece...

in fact, one of the differences is in lot of more R1a than is common for Greece
see http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf and look at tables and Figure 1 where P*(except R1a) is homogeneous for Greece except for ancient Macedonia, and in same time R1a is significantly larger in ancient Macedonia, which in fact can give some credibility to theory that ancient Macedonians were one of pre-Slavic tribes...

perhaps ancient Macedonians were hellenized and merged into the rest of Greece, but it is hard to claim that without evidence...

anyway, ancient Greece has lot of credit for creation of basis for west civilization, while ancient Macedonia plays negliglible part in that... so I fail to see why is for Greece that important to insist on name issue....

and Deja Vu should stop trolling... Greeks are not black and Vlachs all over Balkan are mostly native people who were romanized, while a part of them origin from Roman settlers...

DejaVu
17-11-10, 00:12
Why do you all not understand and read what have been posted instead of assuming I have said something I did not. Never wrote greeks were blacks, but there is a theory supported by some that the first ancient population in Egypt and Greece was black skinned people and so what?

Got no reply on my questions.
Why do I continue with these questions? I got no answer if none knows anything more about this it will be dropped. Instead of trying to avoid them maybe someone can answer them.

What greeks are we talking about? Ancient and todays greeks are same since when?
Aint all mixed people in the Balkans?


Marianne wrote:

DNA studies in skeletons found from Ancient Greece reveal that Greeks have the same DNA since 5000 years now, with 99.5% of it being European?

Yes according to surveys, Greeks have one of the smallest % of Sub-Saharan DNA?

When he says Greece he means Greece of the past and today?

Marianne
17-11-10, 20:26
What difference would it make whatsoever if ancient Greeks were black? Black skin colour has nothing with genetics. It is adaptation to environment with more sun. Or someone thinks that there was greater plan to settle most white people in areas with least sun, and than to gradually going to more sunny lands use more and more black colour?
We can see it in haplogroups as well... R1a in Europe gives very white man, while in India it gives people with much darker skin.. same is with haplogroup E or R1b in Europe and Africa...
I agree that it doesn't make any difference if ancient Greeks would look black, but they didn't. In fact one of the reasons they thought they were superior to others was that their skin was not as light as Northern European Tribes and not dark as their neighbors from Asia, Egypt and of course the rest of Africa.


people from Macedonia never had another name, they are for more than thousand years from Macedonia and thus referred to as Macedonians...
As for Greeks claiming that ancient Macedonians were Greeks, I think that's just not true... I remember reading that Macedonians were not allowed (till the time of Alexander Macedonian) to compete in Olympic Games because they were not Greeks...
genetic shows area of ancient Macedonia inside Greece as clearly different from the rest of the Greece
......
anyway, ancient Greece has lot of credit for creation of basis for west civilization, while ancient Macedonia plays negliglible part in that... so I fail to see why is for Greece that important to insist on name issue....
Ancient Macedonia was a very large area (before the expansion of Great Alexander) which included the north part of Modern Greece, some part of South-West Bulgaria, and some part of FYROM. The center of Ancient Macedonia was Pela the birth place of Great Alexander, which is inside Modern Greece. People used to speak Greek, and in fact the names of Fillipe (father of Alexander the Great), his mother Olympia, and Great Alexander himself are Greek and have a meaning in the Greek language. If they were decendants of another tribe we cannot know for sure, but they spoke the Greek language and acted as Greeks. Great Alexander was allowed to compete in the Olympic Games and therefore he was recognized as Greek and so was his empire. Maybe their haplogroup was mostly R1a which is more common there but as far as I know there is no Greek haplogroup and R1a was also found in the rest of Greece, so we can't based their ethnicity on the haplogroup of Modern Macedonians in Greece Bulgaria and FYROM.

Now no Greek denies that part of Ancient Macedonia is where FYROM is now, but before this nation became a seperate country it was named Vardaska and was a state in Yugoslavia. Before their seperation they had never mentioned any connection to Ancient Macedonia nor did they care about being named Macedonians. An ambitius politician named Tito started planting such thoughts to their minds in order to serve his political plans in the area.
As for the name, why should a small part of Ancient Macedonia be named exclusevly Macedonia? What about the rest of the territory? Are they immidiatelly considered non-Macedonians? Yes they have the right to be named what they want to be named as LeBrok said but that should not cancel the right of anyone else to be named like they also want. North Macedonia or Nova Macedonia are accepted by the Greek Government (till now at least, cause the current government is America's puppy) and these names still retain the right of the rest of Macedonians to be called also Macedonians.
What if the Netherlands would split next year. Should only one part retain the right to be called Netherlands? I guess not. Yeah both have the right to be named what they want but if only one part is named like that what about the rights of the other part. A name like North Netherlands and South Netherlands would be the most fair solution I guess. And that is what we propose
Macedonia is not "just a name", and we are not the big bad wolf that is against people's rights. Many issues will rise if they are named Macedonians but as I said before this is not the thread to analyse this matter.


and Deja Vu should stop trolling... Greeks are not black and Vlachs all over Balkan are mostly native people who were romanized, while a part of them origin from Roman settlers...
I agree.

Marianne
17-11-10, 20:43
The problem with all newly created nations is their megalomania as a a response to a lack of self confidence. So, the Slavs in region of Macedonia usurping the name of antic Macedonia, Muslim Bosniacs usurping name of medieval Bosnian state, Albanians usurping the name of Illyrians and so on.

I agree with you here


But I find also quite intriguing way the modern Greeks find themselves as direct descendants of ancient Greeks, especially if we talk about Hellenic civilization. I really can not see that direct line which conects Platon with sirtaki and giros. But maybe it is just lack of imagination.

You are doing the same mistake most people do:

You forget that nations evolve. Just because we don't wear white robes nowadays and we don't believe in the 12 gods of Mount Olympus (there are many who still do though) it doesn't mean we are not descendants of Ancient Greeks. We speak the same language, we live in the same region, we have the same customs (Greek Carnival, 21st of November the celebration of ancient Goddess Demetra etc), we look the same, we think the same and DNA proves we are the same. No one says that we should stop using cars and start using horses, or that we should have slaves that do all the work for us so we can eat and chat all day about philosophy, in order to be Greeks.

Are you a clone of your father? No you are not. But you are his direct descendant. Are modern Germans still wearing horned helmets and Modern Scandinavians still believe in Thor? No... But no one denies they are descendants of those ancient tribes. Greece has a huge history though and many people with certain agendas would benifit if people believed that Modern Greeks are not connected with Ancient Greeks.

Marianne
17-11-10, 20:51
Marianne, It is painfully clear that you are not fighting or trying to start a fight. Yes, of course it hurts when someone with an agenda says " Hey, you know all those great achievements that came out of that region, it wasn't you Greeks, it was other people that did it." Of course it is beyond ridiculous to ascribe these events to ethnic blacks, who incidentally have historically been almost always sub-saharan. There has been a whole jenre of books dedicated to trying to present claims that the foundations of Western Culture were laid by non-Greeks. the entire scheme of theirs is not worth debating as it is sort of like me saying that I invented electricity.

For the record, I will not stand for now being accused of being anti-black.
I am no such person and respect the achievements of cultures and peoples.

I am glad there are new members in the forum able to think :smile:

And don't worry, most of the people, also able to think, in this forum will not consider you racist for what you said in this post

Regulus
17-11-10, 21:19
Thanks for the vote of confidence!
This forum appears to be a great place for information.

DejaVu
17-11-10, 21:56
Why do you continuing to discuss some fake facts = lies = Marianne

We can clearly see on the maps the territory of Macedonia (FYROM) is everything else under occupation - Macedon -> Macedonia -> Roman Empire -> Byzantine Empire -> Sklavinia -> Bulgarian Empire -> Tsar Dushans Empire -> Ottoman Empire -> Yugoslavia -> Socialist republic of Macedonia -> Republic of Macedonia -> Former yugoslav republic of Macedonia (FYROM a greek accepted name not by own choice)

What we know for sure is that there never was a Greek country before 1821.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vardar_Banovina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vardar_Banovina)

The Vardar Banovina or Vardar Banate or Vardarska Banovina (Serbo-Croatian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Serbo-Croatian_language): Vardarska banovina, Вардарска бановина) was a province (banovina (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Banovina)) of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Kingdom_of_Yugoslavia) between 1929 and 1941. It was located in the southernmost part of the country, encompassing the whole of today's Republic of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia), southern parts of Central Serbia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Central_Serbia) and southeastern parts of Kosovo (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Kosovo). It was named after the Vardar (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Vardar) River and its administrative capital was the city of Skopje (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Skopje).

Purple (right): Danube Banovina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube_Banovina)
Orange: Drina Banovina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drina_Banovina)
Yellow (left): Drava Banovina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drava_Banovina)
Purple (left): Littoral Banovina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littoral_Banovina)
Yellow (right): Morava Banovina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morava_Banovina)
Pink (top): Sava Banovina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sava_Banovina)
Green (right): Vardar Banovina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vardar_Banovina)
Green (left): Vrbas Banovina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrbas_Banovina)
Pink (bottom): Zeta Banovina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeta_Banovina)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Banovine_kj.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(region)
Borders of Macedonia according to different authors (1843–1927)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Borders_of_Macedonia_according_authors_%281843-1927%29.png/800px-Borders_of_Macedonia_according_authors_%281843-1927%29.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Borders_of_Macedonia_according_authors_%281843-1927%29.png)

You dont know your own history (or try to hide it) and you have the guts to stick your nose in others.

DNA studies in skeletons found from Ancient Greece reveal that Greeks have the same DNA since 5000 years now, with 99.5% of it being European?

Yes according to surveys, Greeks have one of the smallest % of Sub-Saharan DNA?

When he says Greece he means Greece of the past and today?

Answer this questions so we can end your fake admits.

how yes no 2
17-11-10, 22:40
Ancient Macedonia was a very large area (before the expansion of Great Alexander) which included the north part of Modern Greece, some part of South-West Bulgaria, and some part of FYROM.

Core of Macedonia was not really big, and it didnot contain parts of FYROM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/95/ExpansionOfMacedon.jpg/752px-ExpansionOfMacedon.jpg

But something else is here at stake. Some people in FYROM are convinced that they origin from ancient Macedonians. According to what I learned in school (in ex-Yugoslavia, in Serbia where I did grow up) I would say that is non-sense.

However, I now look at genetics. Genetically area matching exactly the core of ancient Macedonia is misfit in Greece. Compare the map of ancient Macedonia above with Figure 1 from http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf... exactly the same shape differs from the rest of the Greece:

1) R* without R1a is much larger in rest of Greece
2) R1a is much larger in ancient Macedonia
3) I2a2 is much larger as well
4) G2a has hotspot in southeastern part of the area

this could indicate that ancient Macedonians were predominantly R1a and I2a2 which is typical combination for east-European people from whom later Slavic nations appeared...

Capital of the country was Pella, which is strikingly similar to pre-Greek population of Greece - Pelasgians. In fact, Herodot places Pelasgians in area of ancient Macedonia...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Pelasgians.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgian_creation_myth

Of course, ancient Macedonians even if they origin from pre-Slavic tribes, lived among Greeks and were very likely hellenized, which makes people from FYROM very very likely to origin just from a wave of later Slavic settlers of the area...


The center of Ancient Macedonia was Pela the birth place of Great Alexander, which is inside Modern Greece. People used to speak Greek, and in fact the names of Fillipe (father of Alexander the Great), his mother Olympia, and Great Alexander himself are Greek and have a meaning in the Greek language.

They were surrounded by Greek tribes. But we do not know what was native language of Macedonians. Royal family speaking hellenic and having hellenic names is no wonder, since Greece was at that time cultural center of the world.


Ancient Macedonian was the language of the ancient Macedonians. It was spoken in the kingdom of Macedon during the 1st millennium BC and it belongs to the Indo-European group of languages. It gradually fell out of use during the 4th century BC, marginalized by Koine Greek, the lingua franca of the Hellenistic period.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language


If they were decendants of another tribe we cannot know for sure, but they spoke the Greek language and acted as Greeks.
Great Alexander was allowed to compete in the Olympic Games and therefore he was recognized as Greek and so was his empire.

royal families often have origin at least partly different from their people... because they tend to marry people from other royal families...

actually this story about Alexander the Great and Olympic Games is mix-up...I just read that first Macedonian who was allowed to participate on Olympic Games was not Alexander the Great, but one of his ancestors Alexander I.


A passage in book five of Herodotus' Histories concerns the exclusion of Macedonians from panhellenic events such as the ancient Olympic Games,[10] where only Greeks were allowed to participate. In 504 or 500 BC, the Macedonian king Alexander I attempted to participate in the Olympic Games but was met with resistance by some competitors, who regarded him as non-Greek. According to Herodotus, Alexander argued that his family was of Greek Argive descent and the Hellanodikai (literally judges of the Greeks) validated his claim to enable participation of Macedonians in Olympic events. Other kings of Macedonia such as Archelaus I and Philip II, as well as commoners, also took part in the Games.[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians


Maybe their haplogroup was mostly R1a which is more common there but as far as I know there is no Greek haplogroup and R1a was also found in the rest of Greece, so we can't based their ethnicity on the haplogroup of Modern Macedonians in Greece Bulgaria and FYROM.

Actually, I think they had lot more R1a than people from FYROM... In level of Poland now...


Now no Greek denies that part of Ancient Macedonia is where FYROM is now, but before this nation became a seperate country it was named Vardaska and was a state in Yugoslavia.
ancient Macedonia spread to area of FYROM only in times around Alexander Macedonians... before that area was called Paeonia...

Nope, area of FYROM was named Macedonia, not Vardarska. You have wrong perception there. I grew up in Yugoslavia, and people from Macedonia were always Macedonians... in fact, since world war 2 their republic was called Macedonia. I know for sure that before world war 2, area was also called Macedonia and they were called Macedonians, and I believe it was like that for long time in past...

Before world war 2, FYROM was included in Vardarska banovina. Vardarska banovina was not state of Macedonians. It included south Serbia and Macedonia. That was division of country with intention to bridge ethnic differences, so the administrative areas were made to mix at least 2 populations in same area and areas were named in such a way to avoid mention of ethnic peoples, so they mostly got names after rivers: Savska, Dravska, Moravska, Vardarska banovina...you can notice that in that division there is no Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia either and noone uses that administrative division as a claim that those entities and ethnicities didnot exist there... Same is with Macedonia and Macedonians... name is not invented, it was there...

don't mix Vardarska banovina with FYROM because half of people living in Vardarska banovina were Serbs, and because Macedonians lived only in south part of that administrative district, in part that was than as now known as Macedonia...

your claim that they took the name recently is simply wrong... and probably based on some anti-FYROM propaganda spread in Greece...

I never heard any other name for Macedonians from FYROM except Macedonians... So, no it was not invented now. I guarantee that...

the only people in Balkans who took recently alternative names were Albanians from Kosovo and muslims from Bosnia. In 1990s they figured out their causes look better in media if they have names that sound more native, so they took names Kosovars and Bosniacs...


Before their seperation they had never mentioned any connection to Ancient Macedonia nor did they care about being named Macedonians. An ambitius politician named Tito started planting such thoughts to their minds in order to serve his political plans in the area.

Not true...

However, before second world war, even though their language is different from Serbian, they were not considered different than Serbs, and Macedonians was used as geography related name for them. They were by Serbs considered to be Serbs and Macedonians, e.g. like one can be Spartan and Greek or Athenian and Greek... however, they themselves did not feel as Serbs, instead they felt as Macedonians and were very much against Kingdom of Yugoslavia... in fact, right-wing Macedonians together with right-wing Croats organized killing of King Alexander in Marseille, France in 1934...


As for the name, why should a small part of Ancient Macedonia be named exclusevly Macedonia? What about the rest of the territory? Are they immidiatelly considered non-Macedonians? Yes they have the right to be named what they want to be named as LeBrok said but that should not cancel the right of anyone else to be named like they also want. North Macedonia or Nova Macedonia are accepted by the Greek Government (till now at least, cause the current government is America's puppy) and these names still retain the right of the rest of Macedonians to be called also Macedonians.

actually, I have no clue why don't they agree on one of those names...
North Macedonia is even worse for Greece than Macedonia. Because it reveals there is south Macedonia as well. And truth is, that before Balkan wars area of Macedonia was almost 3 times bigger than FYROM and dominantly settled with FYROM Macedonians...

When Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia beat Turkey they did divide Macedonia in 3 parts... Only the people from part of that land that became part of Serbia are now nation with own state...

DejaVu
18-11-10, 01:21
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doric_Greek

Distribution of Greek dialects (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Greek_dialects) in the classical period (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Classical_Greece).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/AncientGreekDialects_%28Woodard%29.svg/660px-AncientGreekDialects_%28Woodard%29.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/AncientGreekDialects_%28Woodard%29.svg)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_dialects_of_Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_dialects_of_Greece)

Macedonian Slavic dialects
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Macedonian_Slavic_dialects.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Macedonian_Slavic_dialects.png)

Hellenism in the near east 1918.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d6/Hellenism_in_the_Near_East_1918.jpg/489px-Hellenism_in_the_Near_East_1918.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d6/Hellenism_in_the_Near_East_1918.jpg)

The nationalities of Southeastern Europe in the late 19th century represented in Pallas Nagy Lexikona, 1897:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/Balkan-nations.jpg/464px-Balkan-nations.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Balkan-nations.jpg)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Macedonia_overview.svg/556px-Macedonia_overview.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Macedonia_overview.svg)

The provisional reference the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) is currently always used in relations involving states which do not recognize the constitutional name, Republic of Macedonia. Nevertheless, all United Nations member-states, and the UN as a whole, have agreed to accept any final agreement resulting from negotiations between the two countries. The ongoing dispute has not prevented the two countries from enjoying close trade links and investment levels (especially from Greece), but it has generated a great deal of political and academic debate on both sides.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megali_Idea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megali_Idea)
Megali Idea (modern Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Greek): ΜεγάληΙδέα, "Great Idea") was an irredentist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irredentist) concept of Greek nationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_nationalism) that expressed the goal of establishing a Greek state that would encompass all ethnic Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks), since large Greek populations after the Greek independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence) in 1832 still lived under the Ottoman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) rule.
The term appeared for the first time during the debates of Prime Minister (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Ministers_of_Greece)Ioannis Kolettis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kolettis) with King Otto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece) that preceded the promulgation of the 1844 constitution.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megali_Idea#cite_note-BA0-0) This was a visionary nationalist aspiration that was to dominate foreign relations and, to a significant extent, to determine the domestic politics of the Greek state for much of the first century of its independent existence. If the expression was new in 1844, the concept had roots in the Greek popular psyche, nurtured as it was by the prophecies and oracles that had kept alive, hopes of eventual liberation from Turkish rule.
Megali Idea implied the goal of reviving the Byzantine Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire) by establishing a Greek state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece), which would be, as ancient geographer Strabo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo) wrote, a Greek world encompassing mostly the former Byzantine lands from the Ionian Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionian_Sea) to Mikra Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikra_Asia) (Asia Minor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Minor)) and Euxenus Pontus (Black Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea)) to the east, and from Thrace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrace), Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(region)) and Epirus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_(region)), north, to Crete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete) and Cyprus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus) to the south. This new state will have its capital in Constantinople (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople).
The Megali Idea dominated the foreign policy and the domestic politics of Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece), from the War of Independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence) in the 1820s through the Balkan wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_wars) in the beginning of the twentieth century. It started to disappear after the defeat of Greece in the Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(1919-1922)) and the Great Fire of Smyrna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Fire_of_Smyrna) in 1922, followed by the exchange of population between Greece and Turkey in 1923 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kolettis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kolettis)
Ioannis Kolettis (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Ιωάννης Κωλέττης) (1773[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] - 1847) was a Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks) politician of Vlach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians) origin who played a significant role in Greek affairs from the Greek War of Independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence) through the early years of the Greek Kingdom, including as Minister to France and serving twice as Prime Minister.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence)
The Greek War of Independence, also known as the Greek Revolution (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Ελληνική Επανάσταση, Elliniki Epanastasi; Ottoman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Turkish_language): يونانعصياني Yunan İsyanı) was a successful war of independence waged by the Greek revolutionaries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Hellenic_Republic) between 1821 and 1830, with later assistance from several European powers, against the Ottoman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire), who were assisted by their vassals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vassal_state), the Eyalet of Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt_Province,_Ottoman_Empire) and partly the Vilayet of Tunisia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ottoman-era_Tunisia).

George Canning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Canning) was the architect of the Treaty of London (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_London_(1827)), which launched European intervention in the Greek conflict.
Tsar Nicholas I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Nicholas_I) co-signed the Treaty of London, and then launched the Russo-Turkish War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Turkish_War_(1828%E2%80%931829)) of 1828–1829, which finally secured Greek independence.

Map showing the original territory of the Kingdom of Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Greece) as laid down in the Treaty of 1832 (in dark blue).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/Greekhistory.GIF/800px-Greekhistory.GIF (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Greekhistory.GIF)
The consequences of the Greek revolution were somewhat ambiguous in the immediate aftermath. An independent Greek state had been established, but with Britain, Russia and France claiming a major role in Greek politics, an imported Bavarian dynast as ruler, and a mercenary army.[123] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence#cite_note-Jelavich229-34-122) The country had been ravaged by ten years of fighting, was full of displaced refugees and empty Turkish estates, necessitating a series of land reforms over several decades.[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence#cite_note-Sowards-29)
The population of the new state numbered 800,000, representing less than one-third of the 2.5 million Greek inhabitants of the Ottoman Empire. During a great part of the next century, the Greek state was to seek the liberation of the "unredeemed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irredentism)" Greeks of the Ottoman Empire, in accordance with the Megali Idea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megali_Idea), i.e. the goal of uniting all Greeks in one country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias)
Count (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count) Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Κόμης Ιωάννης Αντώνιος Καποδίστριας – Komis Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias,[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-Britannica-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-2)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-3) in Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language): Giovanni Capo d'Istria, Conte Capo d'Istria,[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-C._W._Crawley-4)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-Britannica-0) and in Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language): граф Иоанн Каподистрия – Graf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graf) Ioann Kapodistriya) (February 11, 1776 – October 9, 1831) was a Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) diplomat of the Russian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Empire) and later first head of state of independent Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Hellenic_Republic).[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-National_and_Kapodistrian_University_of_Athens-5)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-6)
Ioannis Kapodistrias was born in Corfu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corfu),[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-Britannica-0)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-Papyros-Larousse-7)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-Columbia_Encyclopedia-8)[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-Encarta-9)[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-Woodhouse_Book-10)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-Britannica_1911-11)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-U_of_Michigan-12) (Κέρκυρα/Kerkyra in Greek),[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-E._Koukkou-13) one of the Ionian Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionian_Islands), which at the time of his birth were a possession of Venice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Venice) . He studied medicine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicine), philosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy) and the law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law) at Padua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padua), in Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy). When he was 21 years old, in 1797, he started his medical practice as a doctor in his native island of Corfu.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-Britannica-0)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-Columbia_Encyclopedia-8)[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-Encarta-9)[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-Woodhouse_Book-10)[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-14) He was throughout his life a deeply liberal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism) thinker and a true democrat, though born and raised as a nobleman. An ancestor of Kapodistrias' had been created a conte (count) by Charles Emmanuel II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Emmanuel_II), Duke of Savoy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Savoy), and the title was later (1679) inscribed in the Libro d'Oro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libro_d%27Oro) of the Corfu nobility;[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-San_Simera-15) the title originates from Capodistria, a city on the eastern shore of the Gulf of Venice, now Koper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koper) in Slovenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovenia) and the place of origin of Kapodistrias' family before they moved to Corfu in the 13th century where they changed their dogma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma) from Catholic to Orthodox and they soon became hellenized.[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-Circom-16)[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-Vitori-17) His family's name in Koper was Vitori or Vittori.[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-Circom-16)[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-Vitori-17) His mother's family, the Gonemi,[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias#cite_note-Vitori-17) had been listed in the Libro d'Oro since 1606. In 1802 Ioannis Kapodistrias founded an important scientific and social progress organisation in Corfu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corfu), the "National Medical Association", of which he was an energetic member. In 1799, when Corfu was briefly occupied by the forces of Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) and Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey), Kapodistrias was appointed chief medical director of the military hospital.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War)
Political refugees of the Greek Civil War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Civil_War) were members or sympathisers of the defeated communist forces who fled Greece during or in the aftermath of the Civil War of 1946–1949. The collapse of the Democratic Army of Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Army_of_Greece) (DSE) and the evacuation of the Communist Party of Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Greece) (KKE) to Tashkent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tashkent) in 1949 led thousands of people to leave the country. It has been estimated that by 1949 over 100,000 people had left Greece, including tens of thousands of child refugees who had been evacuated by the KKE in an organised campaign.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War#cite_note-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War#cite_note-autogenerated5-1) The war wreaked widespread devastation right across Greece and particularly in the regions of Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece)) and Epirus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_(periphery)), causing many people to continue to leave the country even after the end of the war.
Many people fled due the collapse of the DSE, it has also been claimed that many ethnic Macedonians fled to avoid possible persecution by the advancing National Army.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War#cite_note-autogenerated5-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War#cite_note-autogenerated12-2)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War#cite_note-Kalyvas_2006_312-3) A term used to describe the experience of the ethnic Macedonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_Macedonians) who left Greece as a result of the Civil War is the Exodus of Macedonians from Greece,[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War#cite_note-autogenerated8-4)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War#cite_note-Multicultural_Canada-5)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War#cite_note-balkaninsight.com-6)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War#cite_note-Balkan_Insight-7) particularly in the Republic of Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia) and the ethnic Macedonian diaspora (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_diaspora). The KKE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Greece) claims that the total number of political refugees was 55,881,[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War#cite_note-8) an estimated 28,000 - 32,000 children were evacuated during the Greek Civil War,[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War#cite_note-autogenerated5-1)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War#cite_note-autogenerated8-4)[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War#cite_note-9)[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War#cite_note-10)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War#cite_note-autogenerated1-11)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War#cite_note-12) A 1951 document from the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia states that the total number of Slav-Macedonians that left Greece during the Civil War was 28,595 [14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War#cite_note-13) whereas some ethnic Macedonian sources put the number of refugees at over 213,000.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War#cite_note-14)
Over the course of the war thousands of Slavomacedonian and other Greek Communists were killed, imprisoned or had their land confiscated.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War#cite_note-autogenerated5-1)[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War#cite_note-29) The headquarters of the Democratic Army in Greece reported that from mid-1945 to May 20, 1947, in Western Macedonia alone, 13,259 were tortured, 3,215 were imprisoned and 268 were executed without trial. In the same period 1,891 had been burnt down and 1,553 had been looted and 13,553 people had been resettled by force.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] Of the many Slavomacedonians who were imprisoned many would often form their own groups within the prisons.[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War#cite_note-30) It is claimed that the Greek Prison Camps were located on the islands of Ikaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikaria) and Makronesos (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Makronesos&action=edit&redlink=1), the Averof jail near Athens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens) and the jails in Thessalonike and Larisa. It was there that communist partisans were tortured, killed and imprisoned.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey)
The 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey was based upon religious identity, and involved the Greek Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Orthodox_Church) citizens of Turkey and the Muslim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) citizens of Greece. It was the first compulsory large-scale population exchange (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer), or agreed mutual expulsion of the 20th century.
The "Convention Concerning the Exchange of Greek and Turkish Populations" was signed at Lausanne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lausanne), Switzerland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland), on the 30th January 1923, by the governments of Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) and Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey). It involved approximately 2 million people, most of whom were forcibly made refugees and de jure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_jure) denaturalized from their homelands.
By the time the Exchange was to take effect, May 1, 1923, most of the pre-war Orthodox Greek population of Aegean Turkey had already fled. The Exchange therefore only involved the Greeks of central Anatolia (both Greek and Turkish speaking), and the Greeks of Pontus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontus), a total of roughly 189,916[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey#cite _note-3). Only 354,647 Muslims were involved.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey#cite _note-4).
The agreement therefore merely ratified what had already been perpetrated on the Greek population. Of the 1,300,000 Greeks involved in the exchange, only approximately 150,000 were resettled in an orderly fashion. The majority fled hastily with the retreating Greek Army following Greece's defeat in the Greco-Turkish War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(1919%E2%80%931922)), whilst others fled, amid scenes of indescribable panic, from the shores of Smyrna.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey#cite _note-5)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey#cite _note-6) The unilateral emigration of the Greek population, already at an advanced stage, was transformed into a population exchange backed by international legal guarantees.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey#cite _note-7)
In Greece, it was considered part of the events called the Asia Minor Catastrophe (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Μικρασιατική καταστροφή). Significant refugee displacement and population movements had already occurred following the Balkan Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_Wars), World War I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I), and the Turkish War of Independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_War_of_Independence). These included exchanges and expulsion of about 500,000 Turks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_people) from Greece and about 1,500,000 Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks) from Asia Minor, Anatolia and Eastern Thrace to Greece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fustanella (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fustanella)
Fustanella (for spelling in various languages, see chart below (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fustanella#Name_in_various_languages)) is a traditional skirt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skirt)-like garment worn by men of many nations in the Balkans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans), similar to the kilt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilt). In modern times, the fustanella is part of traditional Albanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians) and Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks) dresses, worn mainly by ceremonial Greek military units (such as the Evzones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evzones)), Albanian and Greek folk dancers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_dance). The dress was also worn by the Royal Guard of Albania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Albanian_Army#Royal_Guard) (1924–1939).
The fustanella is derived from a series of ancient garments such as the chiton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiton_(costume)) (or tunic) and the chitonium (or short military tunic).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fustanella#cite_note-0) The Roman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome)toga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toga) may have also influenced the evolution of the fustanella based on statues of Roman emperors wearing knee-length pleated kilts (in colder regions, more folds were added to provide greater warmth).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fustanella#cite_note-1)
Byzantine Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Greeks) called the fustanella, or pleated kilt, podea. The wearer of the podea was either associated with a typical hero or an Akritic warrior (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akrites) and can be found in 12th century finds attributed to Manuel I Komnenos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_I_Komnenos).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fustanella#cite_note-2) During the Ottoman period (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire), the fustanella was worn by the armatoloi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armatoloi) and the klephts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klephts).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fustanella#cite_note-3) The fustanella was originally thought to have been a southern Albanian outfit of the Tosks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tosks) and introduced in Greece during the Ottoman occupation that began after the 15th century.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fustanella#cite_note-4)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fustanella#cite_note-5)

Greek Refugee Settlement
Source: “Crossing the Aegean: The Consequences of the 1923 Greek-Turkish Population Exchange” by Renee Hirschon, 2003, page 181.
http://makedonika.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/181-6.png?w=409&h=543 (http://makedonika.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/181-6.png)

“A Concise History of Greece” by Richard Clogg, 1992, page 105
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Refugee_settlement_concentration_ma.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece)
Macedonia (Greece) - Population2,625,681 (2006 Estimate)
Regional identity
Macedonians (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Μακεδόνες, Makedónes) is the term by which ethnic Greeks (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greeks) originating from the region are known. Macedonians came to be of particular importance during the Balkan Wars (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Balkan_Wars) when they were a minority population inside the Ottoman province of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ottoman_Greece). The Macedonians now have a strong regional identity, manifested both in Greece[16] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-Liotta-15) and by emigrant groups in the Greek diaspora (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_diaspora).[17] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-theaustralianpeople-16) This sense of identity has been highlighted in the context of the Macedonian naming dispute (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonian_naming_dispute) after the break-up of Yugoslavia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Breakup_of_Yugoslavia), in which Greece objects to its northern neighbour calling itself the "Republic of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia)", since explicit self-identification as Macedonian is a matter of national pride for many Greeks.[18] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-17) A characteristic expression of this attitude could be seen when Greek newspapers headlined a declaration by Prime Minister (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/List_of_Prime_Ministers_of_Greece) Kostas Karamanlis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Kostas_Karamanlis) at a meeting of the Council of Europe (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Council_of_Europe) in Strasbourg (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Strasbourg) in January 2007, saying that "I myself am a Macedonian, and another two and a half million Greeks are Macedonians."
The exact size of the linguistic and ethnic minority groups of Macedonia is officially unknown, as Greece has not conducted a census on the question of mother tongue since 1951.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(region)
Macedonian Greeks (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonians_(Greek)) are ethnic Greeks who self-identify regionally as "Macedonians" (Greek: Μακεδόνες, Makedónes). They form the majority of the region's population (~51%). They number approximately 2,500,000 and live almost entirely in Greek Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece)). The Greek Macedonian population is mixed, with indigenous and a large influx of Greek refugees descending from Asia Minor (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Asia_Minor), Pontic Greeks (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pontians), and East Thracian Greeks (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Eastern_Thrace) in the early 20th century. This is due to the population exchange between Greece and Turkey (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey), during which over 1.2 million Christian refugees from Turkey were settled in Greece, 638,000 of whom were settled in Macedonia.[2] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-1) Smaller Greek minorities exist in Bulgaria and the Republic of Macedonia, although their numbers are difficult to ascertain. In official census results, only 86 persons declared themselves Greeks in Bulgarian Macedonia (Blagoevgrad Province) in 2001, out of a total of 3,408 in all Bulgaria; while 442 described themselves as Greeks in the 2002 census in the Republic of Macedonia.

So the Refugees from Turkey are the real Macedonians?

What Greeks are we talking about? Ancient and todays Greeks are same since when?

Regulus
19-11-10, 03:51
I know that I am the most junior of members, but I feel the need to step up as this thread appears to have fallen off of a cliff.

I assert the following:

Ancient Macedonians were in fact Greeks. They spoke it, lived it, and we can find no ethnic difference between them and other Greeks. I believe that they were a branch of Dorians, a people who also were viewed in a not-so-great light when they threw out the Achaeans long before.
It was not uncommon for some elitist Athenians to pretend to have difficulty distinguishing Macedonians from other Greeks, but it is more than safe so say that they knew better and did this to try to minimize Macedonian influence in Greece, which rapidly gained speed.

Slavs moved into the Balkans after the East and West Goths migrated to their respective destinations. After the depopulation of this area from those conflicts (and subsequent Avar destruction later) the time was ripe for a new and vigorous people to move in. We call these southern Slavs. I hold that is acceptable for these people to refer to themselves as Macedonians. The problem occurs if they lay claim to the achievements of ancient Macedonians. To offer an American phrase, there was not a Slavic tribe “within a thousand miles” of that region at the time of ancient or classical Macedonia.

It is common to refer to those who now live in Rome as Romans, even though few can say with certainty that their families go back in that city to the days of the Roman republic. We would make no effort to sort out those who moved in last year or in 1850 and tell them that they cannot be called Romans. We just know that the terms mean different things for different time periods.

Lastly on this, trying to say that the people of ancient Greece that achieved so much were ethnically different from those who live there today does not even reach the level of pseudo-science. I would not even lend dignity to those assertions by arguing against them. Offering maps upon maps and citations that are mostly irrelevant adds no credibility. todays Greeks are descended from the Indo European Greek tribes and those who did not get killed or driven off by them.

Again, I am the new guy and as such, feel obligated to observe for a while before jumping in with pronouncements. This thread, though, caused me to offer my two cents.

Regulus
19-11-10, 03:59
I should add that there of course has been an admixture from other peoples who have resided there since classical days. I just know how much and would not hazard to guess.

DejaVu
19-11-10, 18:38
Ancient Macedonians were in fact Greeks?

Ancient Quotes on the Macedonians as Distinct Nation

The ancient Greek, Roman, and Jewish historians, geographers, and orators, speak of the Macedonians as distinct nation, separate from their Greek, Thracian, and Illyrian neighbors. They are clear that Macedonia was never part of Greece and that the Macedonians conquered Greece, Thrace, and Illyria, and kept the Greeks, Thracians, and Illyrians enslaved, until Rome defeated the Macedonian armies and turned the country into its first province in 168 BC. The assertion of those modern historians that propagate that the Macedonians "were Greeks" which have "united" Greece, is absurd and is completely unsupported by the words of the ancients who clearly considered Greece subjected by the Macedonian foreigners. The Macedonians garrisoned the Greek cities (like the Thracian and Illyrian cities) to enforce their occupation, and later used the Greeks (along with equal numbers of the Thracians and Illyrians) for their conquest of Persia.


1) Diodorus (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/diodorus.html)
12) Plutarch (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/plutarch.html)
2) Justin (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/justin.html)
13) Livy (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/livy.html)
3) Arrian (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/arrian.html)
14) Polybius (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/Polybius.html)
4) Curtius Rufus (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/curtius.html)
15) Thracymachus (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/Thracymachus.html)
5) Thucydides (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/Thucydides.html)
16) Herodotus (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/herodotus.html)
6) Isocrates (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/isocrates.html)
17) Demosthenes (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/demosthenes.html)
7) Ephoros (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/Ephoros.html)
18) Josephus (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/Josephus.html)
8) Ptolemy (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/Ptolemy.html)
19) Strabo (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/strabo.html)
9) Pausanias (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/pausanias.html)
20) Dionysius Periegetes (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/Dionysius1.html)
10) Medius of Larisa (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/medeius.html)
21) Pseudo-Scylax (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/PseudoSkylax.html)
11) Pseudo-Herodotus (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/PseudoHerodotus.html)
22) Dionysius son of Kalliphon (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/DionysiusSon.html)


The ancient Greeks did not regard the Macedonians as Greeks, nor the Macedonians regarded themselves to be Greek. They were proud of their Macedonian nationality and way of life, and looked down upon the Greeks and with contempt. The Greeks called them barbarians, along with the Persians, Illyrians, and Thracians, a label that they attributed to all non-Greeks who neither spoke nor understood the Greek language. Alexander's Macedonian Army was not a "Greek army" as some modern writers have erroneously claimed, nor the Macedonian conquest of Asia was a "Greek conquest". The fact is that not one ancient writer has called the Macedonian empire "Greek" or the Macedonian army and conquest "Greek", but specifically Macedonian. When Rome clashed with Macedonia, the Macedonians were ordered by the Romans to evacuate from the whole of Greece and withdraw to Macedonia. They were hated by the Greeks ever since Philip II defeated the Greeks at Chaeronea in 338 BC and brought Greece to its kneel, and the Greeks fought fiercely, first on the side of the Persians and later on the side of the Romans to expel the Macedonians from their country. Too late would they realize that the Macedonian occupation would only be replaced by the Roman. In between the Greeks fought many unsuccessful wars against the Macedonians to drive them out of Greece, among which the Lamian War is the most famous. It should be noted that the Lamian War was triggered by the death of Alexander the Great, which encouraged the Greeks to rebel.

Regulus
19-11-10, 19:24
I wish that I could say that I am surprised we see yet another challenge to the fact that Macedonians were Greeks. Deja Vu would probably agree with Grote in saying that Xerzes' army had more Greeks than Alexander's.

If Phillip's Macedonians were not Greek, would it not be highly likely that almost all of Greece would have put up just a little more resistance to the League Phillip created? Please note that contemporary comments cannot be given the same authority as similar ones from our times as the two writing styles had appreciable differences. Like I wrote, Athenians pretended to have trouble telling the difference between non-Greeks and Macedonians. Others may well have intended to try to stress the differences in saying that the Macedonians were less cosmopolitan or less enervated than many other Greeks.

When Attalus insulted Alexander (and Olympias) by publicly wishing that the marriage of his niece to Phillip would produce a legitimate heir, what does Deja Vu suggest that he meant? It would be unlikely that he meant that his niece was Illyrian, because that would be what we know Olympias to have been and that was Attalus' point. He was saying that his niece was a Macedonian noble and that a son that she would have would have a better claim to the throne than Alexander. As an aside, I do love Alexander's retort "Villain, do you take me for a bastard then?"

So, we can say that Macedonians were not Illyrians and we know that no Slavic tribes were anywhere near Macedonia at that time. Ok then, Deja Vu, just whom do you say these people were? I am very curious now.

I am also reading Herodotus now. If I find anything that shows me to be wrong, I will be sure to tell you. I have read Lots of Plutarch, Livy, and Arrian several times over and have yet to come to your conclusions as a result.

how yes no 2
20-11-10, 02:20
Like I wrote, Athenians pretended to have trouble telling the difference between non-Greeks and Macedonians.
Others may well have intended to try to stress the differences in saying that the Macedonians were less cosmopolitan or less enervated than many other Greeks.

Actually, according to Herodotus, Macedonians and Spartans origin from Hellenic Dorians, while Athenians origin from Pelasgians...
Herodotous argue that Pelasgians spoke barbarian language and that Ionian Athenians must have been hellenized...



Afterwards he turned his thoughts to the alliance which he had been recommended to contract, and sought to ascertain by inquiry which was the most powerful of the Grecian states. His inquiries pointed out to him two states as pre-eminent above the rest. These were the Lacedaemonians and the Athenians, the former of Doric, the latter of Ionic blood. And indeed these two nations had held from very, early times the most distinguished place in Greece, the being a Pelasgic, the other a Hellenic people, and the one having never quitted its original seats, while the other had been excessively migratory; for during the reign of Deucalion, Phthiotis was the country in which the Hellenes dwelt, but under Dorus, the son of Hellen, they moved to the tract at the base of Ossa and Olympus, which is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the Cadmeians, they settled, under the name of Macedni, in the chain of Pindus. Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopis having entered the Peloponnese in this way, they became known as Dorians.
What the language of the Pelasgi was I cannot say with any certainty. If, however, we may form a conjecture from the tongue spoken by the Pelasgi of the present day- those, for instance, who live at Creston above the Tyrrhenians, who formerly dwelt in the district named Thessaliotis, and were neighbours of the people now called the Dorians- or those again who founded Placia and Scylace upon the Hellespont, who had previously dwelt for some time with the Athenians- or those, in short, of any other of the cities which have dropped the name but are in fact Pelasgian; if, I say, we are to form a conjecture from any of these, we must pronounce that the Pelasgi spoke a barbarous language. If this were really so, and the entire Pelasgic race spoke the same tongue, the Athenians, who were certainly Pelasgi, must have changed their language at the same time that they passed into the Hellenic body; for it is a certain fact that the people of Creston speak a language unlike any of their neighbours, and the same is true of the Placianians, while the language spoken by these two people is the same; which shows that they both retain the idiom which they brought with them into the countries where they are now settled.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/herodotus-history.txt
Herodotus - History

Trojan war is estimated to have lasted between 1194BC and 1184 BC

but Dorian invasion also is estimated to have happened around 1200 BC

(btw. no Macedonians in Trojan war, and Sparta might have been originally about Lydia that was known as Sparda http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia )

Dorians are hellenic tribe, while Athenians are Pelasgians in origin...
some theories propose that Dorians in fact did arrive to Greece much after the Trojan war


The problem is that there are no traces of any Dorians anywhere until the start of the Geometric period at about 950 BC. This simple pottery decoration appears to be correlated with other changes in material culture, such as the introduction of iron weapons and alterations in burial practices from Mycenaean group burials in tholos tombs to individual burials and cremation. These can certainly associated with the historical Dorian settlers, such as those of Sparta in the 10th century BC.[19] However, they appear to have been general over all of Greece; moreover, the new weapons would not have been used in 1200.
The scholars were now faced with the conundrum of an invasion at 1200 but a resettlement at 950. What took the Dorians so long and where were they for several generations? One answer is that the destruction of 1200 was not caused by the Dorians and that the quasi-mythical return of the Heracleidae is to be associated with settlement at Sparta ca. 950. It was a migration easily accomplished in a military vacuum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_invasion


A tradition also survived that large parts of Greece had once been Pelasgian before being Hellenized. These parts generally fell within the ethnic domain that by the fifth century was attributed to those speakers of ancient Greek who were identified as Ionians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

if Dorians are proto-Greeks, as Herodotus seems to believe, than ancient Macedonians were indeed Greeks, and Trojan war might have been in fact pre-Greek event, that came to ancient Greeks via epic songs of assimilated Pelasges (Athenians being one of them)

if Ionians were proto-Greek, than ancient Macedonioans and Spartans are not Greek...

In fact, perhaps term Greek origins from Pelasgians e.g. Ionians, while term Hellens origins from Macedonians and Spartans.... question is whose language and culture is the one in Greece?


To offer an American phrase, there was not a Slavic tribe “within a thousand miles” of that region at the time of ancient or classical Macedonia.
I would not bet on that.... name Slavs is not mentioned before 6th century....
but than again it its first appearances in history it is related to names of Venedi and Anti and those people are described as being of Veneti race...


In the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36)
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html
Jordanes- the origin and deeds of Goths

knowing that Anti and Venedi were in past classified as Sarmatian tribes...
we see that Slavs were previously called Venedae and Sarmats which places them in exactly the same part of east Europe where they live now (except Bohemia, west Poland and Balkans).

Taking into account that in fact Iaziges tribe was named Sarmatian by one authors and Illyrina Pannonian by others, we actually come to the logical point that Pannonians was name for Sarmatians who lived in Pannonia.....

now, let me tell you who Pannonian Illyrians were
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Celts_in_Illyria_%26_Pannonia.png

take a good look at position of Oseriates tribe....

it is exactly this place

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Plitvice_lakes.JPG/250px-Plitvice_lakes.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plitvic..._National_Park
magnificent set of 16 lakes with lot of waterfalls... really beautiful

Oseriates, right?

words for lake:

russian - ozero
Ukrainian - ozero
serbo-croat - jezero
czech - jezero
german - see
italian - lago
french - lac
greeks - λίμνη
estonian - järv
albanian - liqen

so, who do you think Oseriates are related to in terms of nations of today?

they were Pannoian Illyrians, named Illyrians likely only because they settled in Illyria


I shall first describe Illyria, which approaches close to the Danube, and to the Alps which lie between Italy and Germany, taking their commencement from the lake in the territory of the Vindelici, Rhæti, and Helvetii.7 [2]
The Daci depopulated a part of this country in their wars with the Boii and Taurisci, Keltic tribes whose chief was Critasirus. The Daci claimed the country, although it was separated from them by the river Parisus,8 which flows from the mountains to the Danube, near the Galatæ Scordisci, a people who lived intermixed with the Illyrian and the Thracian tribes. The Illyrians were destroyed by the Daci, while the Scordisci were frequently their allies.
The rest of the country as far as Segestica,9 and the Danube, towards the north and east, is occupied by Pannonii, but they extend farther in an opposite direction.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0239:book=7:chapter= 5&highlight=
Strabo (63/64 BC – ca. AD 24) - Geographica

so, you are very likely to be wrong about Slavs being not a thousand miles near...Slavic people were where they are but under different names... Pannonian tribes settled Illyria after it was depopulated (much before Strabo's writings) in wars between Dacians and Celts... area was still named Illyria, but real Illyrians were already in Strabo's time living in Albania...


The Breuci, Andizetii, Ditiones, Peirustæ, Mazæi, Daisitiatæ, whose chief was Baton, and other small obscure communities, which extend to Dalmatia, and almost to the Ardiæi to the south, are Pannonians.


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0239:book=7:chapter= 5&highlight=
Strabo (63/64 BC – ca. AD 24) - Geographica



The whole mountainous tract from the recess of the Adriatic bay to the Rhizonic gulf,17 and to the territory of the Ardiæi, intervening between the sea and Pannonia, forms the coast of Illyria.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0239:book=7:chapter= 5&highlight=
Strabo (63/64 BC – ca. AD 24) - Geographica

Real Illyrians thus in Strabo's time lived in Albania and Montenegro (Rhizonic gulf is as explained in footnote the bay of Kotor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boka_kotorska), and as you can see he explains further that this actually Illyrian coast is between sea and Pannonians, which indicates that Pannoians at that time lived in FYRM as well...

Actually, in ancient Greece (few centuries before Strabo) FYROM was settled by Paeonians and not by ancient Macedonians... could Paeonians be same as Pannonians?

King Darius was full of wonder both at what they who had watched
the woman told him, and at what he had himself seen. So he commanded
that she should be brought before him. And the woman came; and with
her appeared her brothers, who had been watching everything a little
way off. Then Darius asked them of what nation the woman was; and
the young men replied that they were Paeonians, and she was their
sister. Darius rejoined by asking, "Who the Paeonians were, and in
what part of the world they lived? and, further, what business had
brought the young men to Sardis?" Then the brothers told him they
had come to put themselves under his power, and Paeonia was a
country upon the river Strymon, and the Strymon was at no great
distance from the Hellespont. The Paeonians, they said, were colonists
of the Teucrians from Troy. When they had thus answered his questions,
Darius asked if all the women of their country worked so hard? Then
the brothers eagerly answered, Yes; for this was the very object
with which the whole thing had been done.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/herodotus-history.txt
Herodotus - History

Paeonians were Trojans in origin... and on side of Troya in Troyan war were also Amazones (from whom Sarmatians origin according to legends) and Lycians (with their ruler Sarpedon)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Trojan_War_characters

to conclude, FYRM people are much more likely to origin from Paeonians than from ancient Macedonians

Regulus
20-11-10, 03:06
I like the well presented and well thought out citations above.

I would have to hold that my assertions on the Slavs were correct. We must use caution when looking for the name "Slav" in that period as they appear to be unknown to those who lived in the Balkans. Greeks (I think Strabo here) knew of the "unmounted scythians" very early on whom they later knew to be Germans and Celts. I would cite Colin McEvedy if I had to choose one when we speak of the Slavs and their migrations. He would not even have them knocking on the door of the Eastern Empire until the fifth century. Aside from those that the Avars forced to fight for them in the sixth century, we do not know of the empire having any problems with them until that time. Prior to the fourth century we do not have them in or near the Balkans yet. Before that, it would have been difficult for them to move south leaving their Baltic "cousins" and cross over the lands of the ever-expanding Goths and the Huns that took the same area from the opposite direction shortly after.

For the record, I really would stand by “hundreds of miles” Thousands was intended to be hyperbole.

I also would strongly hold that the Sarmations, Roxolani, etc., were Iranian tribes.

I would like to see more discussion on the Paeonians possibly being of Trojan origin and also if they can be equated with Pannonians. I will freely admit that Paeonians are the group about which I would know the least by far.

Thanks

DejaVu
20-11-10, 05:09
Conspiracy Topics
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread348619/pg1
Historically the philistines, the Babylonians and Persians conquered the land of Canaan which the Hebrew people called Israel, the Hebrew tribes of Manesseh and Dan joined forces and became the Macedonians or Macedanians (Manasseh + Dan = Macedanians) they wore white kilts like the Egyptian pharaohs, played goat skinned bagpipes, adopted the Greek culture and settled along the River Danube which they named after the tribe of Dan.
THE EMPIRE OF "THE CITY" (World Superstate)
Part 1 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4675077383139148549#
Part 2 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4675077383139148549#docid=-4430543376785758889


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_N._Borza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_N._Borza)
Eugene N. Borza was a professor emeritus of ancient history at Pennsylvania State University (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pennsylvania_State_University). He has written many works on the ancient kingdom of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_(ancient_kingdom)).





Published works

1962 - The Bacaudae: A Study of Rebellion in Late Roman Gaul (University of Chicago, Department of History)
1974 - The Impact of Alexander the Great (http://books.google.com/books?id=kXtPAAAACAAJ&dq) (Dryden Press, ISBN 003090000X (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Special:BookSources/003090000X))
1990 - In the Shadow of Olympus: The Emergence of Macedon (http://books.google.com/books?id=614pd07OtfQC&printsec=frontcover&hl) (Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691008809 (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Special:BookSources/0691008809))
1995 - Makedonika (http://books.google.com/books?id=YtD5HQAACAAJ&dq=Makedonika&hl) (Regina Books, ISBN 0941690652 (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Special:BookSources/0941690652))
Eugene Borza

Who Were (and Are) the Macedonians?
(Abstract from a paper presented at the 1996 Annual meeting of the American PhilologicalAssociation http://www.apaclassics.org/AnnualMeeting/96program.html (http://www.apaclassics.org/AnnualMeeting/96program.html))
This paper seeks to illuminate the problems associated with determining the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians (were
they Greek?), and to discuss the "reverberations" (to use the organizers' term) of that issue in modem times. While the
1971 OED may regard the use of the word "ethnicity" as obsolete, no adequate substitute for the word exists. Indeed,
part of the discussion in my paper will, following the lead of Loring Danforth in his recent The Macedonian Conflict.-
Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World (Princeton 1995), attempt to illustrate some principles by which the "ethnicity"
of the ancient Macedonians--and, perhaps, other ancient peoples--can be discussed in a coherent manner.

Among the questions asked as appropriate to a methodological model of determining ethnicity are:

I. What were a people's origins and what language did they speak? From the surviving literary sources
(Hesiod, Herodotus, and Thucydides) there is little information about Macedonian origins, and the
archaeological data from the early period is sparse and inconclusive. On the matter of language, and despite
attempts to make Macedonian a dialect of Greek, one must accept the conclusion of the linguist R. A.
Crossland in the recent CAH, that an insufficient amount of Macedonian has survived to know what language
it was. But it is clear from later sources that Macedonian and Greek were mutually unintelligible in the court
of Alexander the Great. Moreover, the presence in Macedonia of inscriptions written in Greek is no more
proof that the Macedonians were Greek than, e.g., the existence of Greek inscriptions on Thracian vessels
and coins proves that the Thracians were Greeks.

II. Self-identity: what did the Macedonians say or think about themselves? Virtually nothing has survived
from the Macedonians themselves (they are among the silent peoples of antiquity), and very little remains in
the Classical and Hellenistic non-Macedonian sources about Macedonian attitudes.

III. What did others say about the Macedonians? Here there is a relative abundance of information from
Arrian, Plutarch (Alexander, Eumenes), Diodorus 17-20, Justin, Curtius Rufus, and Nepos (Eumenes),
based upon Greek and Greek-derived Latin sources. It is clear that over a five-century span of writing in two
languages representing a variety of historiographical and philosophical positions the ancient writers regarded
the Greeks and Macedonians as two separate and distinct peoples whose relationship was marked by
considerable antipathy, if not outright hostility.

IV. What is the nature of cultural expressions as revealed by archaeology? As above we are blessed with an
increasing amount of physical evidence revealing information about Macedonian tastes in art and decoration,
religion, political and economic institutions, architecture and settlement patterns. Clearly the Macedonians
were in many respects Hellenized, especially on the upper levels of their society, as demonstrated by the
excavations of Greek archaeologists over the past two decades. Yet there is much that is different, e. g., their
political institutions, burial practices, and religious monuments.

I will argue that, whoever the Macedonians were, they emerged as a people distinct from the Greeks who lived to the
south and east. In time their royal court--which probably did not have Greek origins (the tradition in Herodotus that the
Macedonian kings were descended from Argos is probably a piece of Macedonian royal propaganda)--became
Hellenized in many respects, and I shall review the influence of mainstream Greek culture on architecture, art, and literary
preferences.

Finally, a took at contemporary Balkan politics. The Greek government firmly maintains that the ancient Macedonians
were ethnic Greeks, and that any claim by the new Republic of Macedonia (The Former Yugoslav Republic of
Macedonia) to the name "Macedonia" and the symbols of ancient Macedonia is tantamount to an expropriation of Greek
history. Moreover, it is claimed that there is no such thing as a distinct Slavic Macedonian identity and language separate
from Bulgaria and Serbia.

I shall review the evidence for the existence of a modern Macedonian ethnicity with reference to my recent work in a
Macedonian ethnic community in Steelton, Pennsylvania. Both the gravestones in a local cemetery and U.S. census reports
from the early twentieth century provide evidence that emigres from Macedonia who lived and died in Steelton in the early
twentieth century considered themselves to be distinct from their Serbian and Bulgarian neighbors.

I shall conclude with a summary showing how the present conflict between Greeks and Macedonians in the Balkans is
characterized by both sides reaching back to antiquity to provide an often false historical basis to justify their respective
modem positions: the theme of "reverberations" as mentioned by the organizers of the panel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonia_(kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonia_(kingdom))
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Paeonia%26Environs.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Paeonia%26Environs.jpg)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Paeonians.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Paeonians.png)
Paeonian tribes

In ancient geography, Paeonia or Paionia (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Παιονία) was the land of the Paeonians (Ancient Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Greek) Παίονες). The exact boundaries of Paeonia, like the early history of its inhabitants, are very obscure, but it is known that they lay in the region of Thrace (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thrace). In the time of Classical Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Classical_Greece), Paeonia originally included the whole Vardar (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Vardar) River valley and the surrounding areas, in what is now the northern part of the Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece) region of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece)), most of the present-day Republic of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia), and a small part of western Bulgaria (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Bulgaria).[1] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=361964#cite_note-0) It was located immediately north of ancient Macedon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedon) (roughly corresponding to the modern Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece) region of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece))) and south of Dardania (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Dardania_(Europe)) (roughly corresponding to modern-day Kosovo (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Kosovo)). In the east were Thracians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thracians) and in the west the Illyrians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Illyrians).
They seem to have been of either Thracian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thracians),[10] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=361964#cite_note-9) or of mixed Thraco-Illyrian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thraco-Illyrian) origins.[11] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=361964#cite_note-10) Linguistically the Paeonian language (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Paeonian_language) has been variously connected to his neighboring languages - Illyrian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Illyrian) and Thracian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thracians); (and every possible Thraco-Illyrian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thraco-Illyrian) mix in between).[12] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=361964#cite_note-11) Several eastern Paeonian tribes including the Agrianes (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Agrianes), clearly fell within the Thracian sphere of influence. Yet according to the national legend (Herodotus v. 13), they were Teucrian colonists from Troy (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Troy). Homer (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Homer) (Iliad (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Iliad), book II, line 848) speaks of Paeonians from the Axios (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Vardar) fighting on the side of the Trojans (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Troja), but the Iliad does not mention whether the Paeonians were kin to the Trojans. Homer (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Homer) gives the Paeonian leader as a certain Pyraechmes (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pyraechmes) (parentage unknown); but later on in the Iliad (Book 21)Homer mentions a second leader, named Asteropaeus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Asteropaeus), son of Pelagon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pelagon).
Before the reign of Darius Hystaspes (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Darius_Hystaspes), they had made their way as far east as Perinthus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Perinthus) in Thrace (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thrace) on the Propontis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Propontis). At one time all Mygdonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mygdonia_(Europe)), together with Crestonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Crestonia), was subject to them. When Xerxes (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Xerxes_I_of_Persia) crossed Chalcidice (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Chalcidice) on his way to Therma (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Therma) (later renamed Thessalonica (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thessalonica)) he is said to have marched through Paeonian territory. They occupied the entire valley of the Axios (Vardar (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Vardar)) as far inland as Stobi (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Stobi), the valleys to the east of it as far as the Strymon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Strymon) and the country round Astibus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Astibus) and the river of the same name, with the water of which they anointed their kings. Emathia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Imathia), roughly the district between the Haliacmon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Haliacmon) and Axios, was once called Paeonia; and Pieria (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pieria) and Pelagonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pelagonia) were inhabited by Paeonians. In consequence of the growth of Macedonian power, and under pressure from their Thracian neighbors, their territory was considerably diminished, and in historical times was limited to the north of Macedonia from Illyria to the Strymon.
In Greek mythology (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_mythology) the Paeonians were said to have derived their name from Paeon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Paeon_(son_of_Endymion)) the son of Endymion (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Endymion_(mythology)).[13] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=361964#cite_note-12)

In 360-359 BC, southern Paeonian tribes were launching raids into Macedon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedon), (Diodorus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Diodorus) XVI. 2.5) in support of an Illyrian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Illyrian) invasion. The Royal House, Macedonias (of the Macedonians) was thrown into a state of uncertainty by the death of Perdiccas (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Perdiccas), but Philip II of Macedon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Philip_II_of_Macedon) (Philip Macedonias) assumed the throne, reformed the army (providing phalanxes (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hellenistic_armies#The_Phalanx)), and proceeded to stop both the Illyrian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Illyrian) invasion and the Paeonian raids through the boundary of the "Macedonian Frontier" which was the northern perimeter which King Phillip intended to defend as an area of his domain. He followed his success in 358 BC with a campaign deep into the north, into Paeonia itself. This reduced the Paeonian kingdom (then ruled by Agis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Agis)) to a semi-autonomous, subordinate status, which led to a process of gradual and formal Hellenization (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hellenization) of the Paeonians. This also united Hellenic peoples and clans that had not belonged to another Hellenic state within that region.
At the time of the Persian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Persian_Empire) invasion, the Paeonians on the lower Strymon had lost, while those in the north maintained, their territorial determination. The daughter of Audoleon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Audoleon), one of these kings, was the wife of Pyrrhus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pyrrhus_of_Epirus), king of Epirus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Epirus_(region)), and Alexander the Great (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Alexander_the_Great) wished to bestow the hand of his sister Cynane (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Cynane) upon Langarus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Langarus), who had shown himself loyal to Philip II. Alexander the Great's mother was from the Hellenic state of Epirus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Epirus_(region)) and was an Epirot by blood. A genial dynasty also continued through the reigns of Paeonian kings (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/List_of_Thracian_kings#Paeonian).

Map of Homeric Greece
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Homeric_Greece.svg/719px-Homeric_Greece.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Homeric_Greece.svg)

In 280 BC the Gallic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Gauls) invaders under Brennus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Brennus_(3rd_century)) ravaged the land of the Paeonians, who, being further hard pressed by the Dardani (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Dardani), had no alternative but to join the Macedonians. Despite their combined efforts, however, the Paeonians and Macedonians were defeated. Paeonia consolidated again but in 217 BC the Macedonian king Philip V of Macedon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Philip_V_of_Macedon) (220-179 BC), the son of Demetrius II, succeeded in uniting and incorporating into his empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians) the separate regions of Dassaretia and Paeonia. A mere 70 years later (in 146 BC), Roman legions (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Roman_legions) conquered Macedon in turn. Paeonia around the Axios formed the second and third districts respectively of the Roman province of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Roman_province_of_Macedonia) (Livy xiv. 29). Centuries later under Diocletian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Diocletian), Paeonia and Pelagonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pelagonia) formed a province called Macedonia secunda (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_secunda) or Macedonia Salutaris (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_Salutaris), belonging to the Praetorian prefecture of Illyricum (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Praetorian_prefecture_of_Illyricum). By AD 400, however, the Paeonians had lost their identity, and the term Paeonia was rendered a mere geographic identifier.

The Paeonians included several independent tribes, all later united under the rule of a single king. Little is known of their manners and customs. They adopted the cult of Dionysus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Dionysus), known amongst them as Dyalus or Dryalus, and Herodotus mentions that the Thracian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thracians) and Paeonian women offered sacrifice to Queen Artemis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Artemis) (probably Bendis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Bendis)). They worshipped the sun in the form of a small round disk fixed on the top of a pole. A passage in Athenaeus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Athenaeus) seems to indicate the affinity of their language (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Paeonian_language) with Mysian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mysian_language). They drank barley beer (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Beer) and various decoctions made from plants and herbs. The country was rich in gold (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Gold) and a bituminous (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Bituminous) kind of wood (or stone, which burst into a blaze when in contact with water) called tanrivoc (or tsarivos).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagon)

There are several figures named Pelagon (Πελάγων, -όνος) in Greek mythology (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_mythology).
Pelagon, the King of Phocis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Phocis) who gives Cadmus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Cadmus) the cow (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Cow) that will guide him to Boeotia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Boeotia).
A second Pelagon is given in the Iliad (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Iliad) as the father of the Paeonian warrior Asteropaeus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Asteropaios), son of the river-god Axius (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Axius_(mythology)) and Periboea (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Periboea). Presumably this Pelagon was the eponymous founder of Pelagonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pelagonia).
A different Pelagon in the Iliad is an "illustrious" companion of Sarpedon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sarpedon), who removes Tlepolemus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Tlepolemus)' spear from Sarpedon's thigh.[1] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=361964#cite_note-0)
Pelagon (also called Pelasgus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pelasgus)) was a son of the river-god Asopus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Asopus) by Metope (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Metope_(mythology)).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagonia)
Pelagonia (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Greek): Πελαγονíα , Macedonian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonian_language): Пелагонија, Pelagonija) is a geographical region of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_(region)), with different borders between ancient and modern times.
In antiquity, it was roughly bounded by Dardania (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Dardania_(Europe)) to the far north, Illyria (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Illyria) to the west and north, Paionia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Paionia) to the east, and Lynkestis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Lynkestis) to the south and west. Ancient Pelagonia is located in south-western regions of modern Republic of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia).[1] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=361964#cite_note-0) Later the region was annexed to the Macedonian kingdom (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_(ancient_kingdom)) during the 4th century BC. In medieval times, when the names of Lynkestis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Lynkestis) and Orestis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Orestis_(region)) had become obsolete, Pelagonia acquired a broader meaning. This is why the Battle of Pelagonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Pelagonia) (1259) between Byzantines and Latins includes also the Kastoria Prefecture (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Kastoria), modern Macedonia (Greece) (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece)), ancient Orestis.Today, Pelagonia is a plain (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Plain) shared between the Republic of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia) and Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece). It incorporates the southern towns of Bitola (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Bitola) and Prilep (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Prilep) in the Republic of Macedonia and the northwestern Greek Macedonian city Florina (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Florina) in Greece; it is also the location of the lower key border crossing between the two countries Medžitlija-Niki (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Med%C5%BEitlija-Niki).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgus)
In Greek mythology (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_mythology), Pelasgus was the eponymous ancestor of the Pelasgians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pelasgians), the mythical inhabitants of Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece) who established the worship of the Dodonaean (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Dodona) Zeus, Hephaestus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hephaestus), the Cabeiri (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Cabeiri), and other divinities. In the different parts of the country once occupied by Pelasgians, there existed dif­ferent traditions as to the origin and connection of Pelasgus. The Ancient Greeks (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Greeks) used to believe even he was the first man.

What makes Paeonians more or less Greek?
They mixed with Macedonians or other people and lost identity?

To conclude, FYROM people are much more likely to origin from Paeonians than from ancient Macedonians?
Based on what? Maps? Language? Genetics? History?

Marianne
22-11-10, 11:47
...
Dorians are hellenic tribe, while Athenians are Pelasgians in origin...
some theories propose that Dorians in fact did arrive to Greece much after the Trojan war
...
if Dorians are proto-Greeks, as Herodotus seems to believe, than ancient Macedonians were indeed Greeks, and Trojan war might have been in fact pre-Greek event, that came to ancient Greeks via epic songs of assimilated Pelasges (Athenians being one of them)

if Ionians were proto-Greek, than ancient Macedonioans and Spartans are not Greek...

In fact, perhaps term Greek origins from Pelasgians e.g. Ionians, while term Hellens origins from Macedonians and Spartans.... question is whose language and culture is the one in Greece?
...

The thread has been expanded since I last visited the forum, I want to add here that Dorians had also reached Crete and more precisely Chania and Rethymno. I don't know how ancient Dorians looked like, but if you visit Crete and leave the major cities and go to the villages in the area between Chania and Rethymno (Sfakia etc) the majority of people you will find are very tall, with blue eyes and blond hair (even though Sfakia is Europe's southernmost point), characteristics which are supposed to be rare in Crete. My family comes from that area and we have inherited these features.

Great Alexander had light hair (more precisely "ξανθιζειν" "xanthezeen" which means not brown, close to what we would call sandy brown/blond today), and since it was worth mentioning it must have been rare in Athens.
The majority of these phenotypes in Greece can be found in North Greece, West Crete (East Crete has mostly descendants of Minoans, with darker features) and Central-South Peloponnese (where Sparta is) and in these areas live descendant of Dorians. Also the Cretan dialect (which I know of) is very very similar to Ancient Greek, and uses special forms in words which are not common in Modern Greek, and Cretans have very similar cultural characteristics with Spartans.

andmed
05-12-10, 21:09
Thanks for the interesting topic.Can somebody suggest a book, where to find facial patterns of different haplogroups, with photos? I have seen many works o genetics (of very popular nature, though), but none of them provided this. I hope there are some, they woild be most interesting!(Are not they considered politically "correct"?)

Humanist
09-12-10, 10:35
The ancient Babylonians

Babylonians and Assyrians belonged mostly to haplogroup J (mostly J2, but with some J1 in southern Mesopotamia) with a minority of E1b1b, G and K. Haplogroup G is more common around the Caucasus.



Updated frequencies

The great majority of modern Aramaic-speaking Assyrian Y-DNA is distributed across five primary haplogroups:

n=70
R1b 27%
J1 17%
J2 16%
T 11%
G 11%
E1b 4%
R1a 4%
R2a 3%
F 1%
I 1%
L 1%
Q1b 1%

The above distribution is most similar to Armenian Y-DNA (see FTDNA Armenian project) and northern Iraqi Jewish Y-DNA (see Nebel et al.). R1b is mostly, presumably, of the R-L23 variety. J1 is mostly of the J1-M267 (w/DYS388=13)* type. Highest rate of T (possibly majority T2a1) among Near Eastern populations is observed in the Assyrian population. G consists mostly of the G2 varieties.

Sources:
Assyrian, Aramaic, Iranian and Iraqi FTDNA Projects
23andMe Database
SMGF Database
Zalloua et al. (Y-chromosomal diversity in Lebanon...)


* J1-M267 frequency in the Assyrian population also touched upon in the soon to be published paper on Marsh Arabs by Nadia Al-Zahery. Quotation, below, from poster at last month's presentation:


Interestingly, when the two M267 subclades, J1-M267* and J1e are considered (Fig. 3, B and C), differential frequency trends emerge. The less represented J1-M267* primarily diffuses towards North East Mesopotamia and shows its maximum frequency in the northern area (Assyrian). In contrast, the most frequent J1e accounts for almost all the J1 distribution in South West Mesopotamia, reaching its highest value in the Marshes. By considering the STR variance associated to the two different subsets of J1 chromosomes (Fig. 3, D and E), the highest variance for both J1-M267* and J1e is registered in the northern Mesopotamia area. . . . The lower variance value (0,118) registered in the Marshes Arabs is in agreement with a recent expansion event which, itself, clearly emerges from the network analysis (Fig. 4). The presence of Y chromosomes belonging to the M267* paragroup suggests a long persistence of this haplogroup in the Mesopotamia Marsh area.If you wish to read about Assyrian autosomal DNA, please see Marnie Dunsmore's Linear Population Model blog. She has some very interesting opinions regarding our genetic signature. A few select bits are below:

Assyrians (November 15, 2010):

Once again, with the recent Dodecad Ancestry Project results for Assyrians, we see a breathtaking concurrence between history and autosomal genetic data.

It is as if Assyrians, genetically speaking, are frozen in time, sometime in the Middle Assyrian Period....Eurogenes K10 Middle East Admixture Results (November 30, 2010):

Mizrahi Jews group together, along with Assyrians and Druze as Northern Fertile Crescent populations.

Thomas15n
13-01-11, 19:01
Hello to everyone, I'm tottaly new in this forum and please forgive my english.
Today for the first time I saw that forum and I readed some facts about the dna of europeans across the continent.
Everything are very interesting for me I have no conection with genetics I simply read some about history and culture.
But I felt really bad when I read some posts from some person wich make a clear propaganda with no scientific evidence just only to pass the propaganda of their native countries, especially about Greece and Greeks.
And because I'm Greek I have the duty to answer them about their lies.
When there are scientific evidences form Universities like Strandford Pavia Moscow that showing clear that the modern Greeks are the same as their ancestors proving that truth, can anyone stand against that?
Of course but wich are these people some propagandists which they want to say only lies. Even in this site there is a table with haplogroups that showing that Greece is a genuine not only European but an native nation of this continent. And try to say these people that Greeks are from somewhere else, but them are the really Europeans.
I wonder whom they can fool? None but themselves!!!
Where are their ancient literature and writers where are their ancient artists where are their written languages before 20th century, those newly languages wich created by politicians (Tito FYROM) or in other case took their alphabet in 20th century (Albania).
And dare to speak about Greece! Your own alphabets (Latin and Cyrillic) are derived from Greek wich is the oldest in Europe and before that the Grammic A and B and Minoan, thousand years before.
I can read today the Ancient Greek with almost no help and understand the meanings, the most of modern Greeks they use today Homeric words and ancient greek proverbs! They Can do the same to their Languages?
Of course NOT because they have nothing to read about.
They speak about Pelasgians as their ancestors, by what source they have that knowledge from their ancient writers and Philosophers? They have ANY? Of Course NO, Herodotos and all others are GREEK.
When the Albania made an international contest of beauty some years ago put inside the Hall some ancient greek columns and a big statue of Nike from Samothraki, Why So, where is their civilization? And as for the Skopian one let ask his compatriots, ex-minister mr Daskalos-ki (Daskalos means Teacher in Greek) and the journalist mr Geros-ki (Geros means Old Man in Greek) about.

Thomas15n
13-01-11, 19:27
Because I'm an orthodox christian and I believe in God, mr Skopian. Read this.

DANIEL 8:20-21
Ha'ayil asher-ra'ita ba'al ha keranayim; MALCHEI MADAI u FARAS.
Aries quem vidisti habere cornua REX MEDORUM est atque PERSARUM.
Ve ha tzafir ha sa'ir MELECH YAVAN; ve ha keren ha gedovlah asher bein-einav, hu ha melech ha rishovn.
Porro hircus caprarum REX GRAECORUM est et cornu grande quod erat inter oculos eius ipse est rex primus.

You see propagandist WHAT GOD says through Angel to Prophet Daniel? The first King is a king of TWO Nations Medes and Persians; the second King is a King of ONLY ONE Nation the Greeks. Don't say Macedonians and Greeks, BUT ONLY GREEKS.
The second King as We All know is Alexander the Great, and You wanted or no IS A GREEK KING.
But sorry I forgot God is a Greek Propagandist, Isn't So. As you see even God is with us and not with You.

Двата рога на овена, които си видял, са царете на Мидия и на Персия. Буйният козел е гръцкият цар; и големият рог между очите му е първият цар.

Овен, которого ты видел с двумя рогами, это цари Мидийский и Персидский.
А козел косматый-- царь Греции, а большой рог, который между глазами его, это первый ее царь;

Ovan što si ga vidio - njegova dva roga - to su kraljevi Medije i Perzije.
Rutavi jarac jest kralj Grčke; veliki rog među njegovim očima jest prvi kralj;

You see the name Makedonski or Makedonija? Where is I don't see it!!!

DejaVu
15-01-11, 21:13
What information posted here is propaganda? All posts have links.
Using name like skopian (greek invention) is propaganda. This statement clearly says that todays fake Greeks dont have a clue (denying) who the people from Macedonia (FYROM) are. If you dont want to see what have been posted dont bother to write about something you have no evidence of or start to link to prove your conclusions.

Thomas15n
DANIEL 8:20-21
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom25.iii.xxv.html?bcb=right
20. The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
By the word “Javan” the Hebrews designate not only the Greeks but the: Macedonians, and the whole of that tract which is divided by the Hellespont, from Asia Minor as far as Illyricum. Therefore the meaning is — the king of Greece.


If you want evidence from the bible here it is:
http://www.openbible.info/

Acts 16:9 (http://bible.cc/acts/16-9.htm) A vision appeared to Paul in the night. There was a man of Macedonia standing, begging him, and saying, "Come over into Macedonia and help us."

Acts 16:10 (http://bible.cc/acts/16-10.htm) When he had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go out to Macedonia, concluding that the Lord had called us to preach the Good News to them.
Acts 16:12 (http://bible.cc/acts/16-12.htm) and from there to Philippi, which is a city of Macedonia, the foremost of the district, a Roman colony. We were staying some days in this city.
Acts 18:5 (http://bible.cc/acts/18-5.htm) But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ.
Acts 19:21 (http://bible.cc/acts/19-21.htm) Now after these things had ended, Paul determined in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, "After I have been there, I must also see Rome."
Acts 19:22 (http://bible.cc/acts/19-22.htm) Having sent into Macedonia two of those who served him, Timothy and Erastus, he himself stayed in Asia for a while.
Acts 20:1 (http://bible.cc/acts/20-1.htm) After the uproar had ceased, Paul sent for the disciples, took leave of them, and departed to go into Macedonia.
Acts 20:3 (http://bible.cc/acts/20-3.htm) When he had spent three months there, and a plot was made against him by Jews as he was about to set sail for Syria, he determined to return through Macedonia.
Romans 15:26 (http://bible.cc/romans/15-26.htm) For it has been the good pleasure of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are at Jerusalem.
1 Corinthians 16:5 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/16-5.htm) But I will come to you when I have passed through Macedonia, for I am passing through Macedonia.
2 Corinthians 1:16 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/1-16.htm) and by you to pass into Macedonia, and again from Macedonia to come to you, and to be sent forward by you on my journey to Judea.
2 Corinthians 2:13 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/2-13.htm) I had no relief for my spirit, because I didn't find Titus, my brother, but taking my leave of them, I went out into Macedonia.
2 Corinthians 7:5 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/7-5.htm) For even when we had come into Macedonia, our flesh had no relief, but we were afflicted on every side. Fightings were outside. Fear was inside.
2 Corinthians 8:1 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/8-1.htm) Moreover, brothers, we make known to you the grace of God which has been given in the assemblies of Macedonia;
2 Corinthians 9:2 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/9-2.htm) for I know your readiness, of which I boast on your behalf to them of Macedonia, that Achaia has been prepared for a year past. Your zeal has stirred up very many of them.
2 Corinthians 11:9 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/11-9.htm) When I was present with you and was in need, I wasn't a burden on anyone, for the brothers, when they came from Macedonia, supplied the measure of my need. In everything I kept myself from being burdensome to you, and I will continue to do so.
Philippians 4:15 (http://bible.cc/philippians/4-15.htm) You yourselves also know, you Philippians, that in the beginning of the Good News, when I departed from Macedonia, no assembly shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving but you only.
1 Thessalonians 1:7 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/1-7.htm) so that you became an example to all who believe in Macedonia and in Achaia.
1 Thessalonians 1:8 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/1-8.htm) For from you the word of the Lord has been declared, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone out; so that we need not to say anything.
1 Thessalonians 4:10 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/4-10.htm) for indeed you do it toward all the brothers who are in all Macedonia. But we exhort you, brothers, that you abound more and more; 1 Timothy 1:3 (http://bible.cc/1_timothy/1-3.htm) As I urged you when I was going into Macedonia, stay at Ephesus that you might command certain men not to teach a different doctrine,

If Greece is same as Macedonia why dont they use the name Greece?



Bible Study Lesson for Acts 20:1-6: Through Macedonia and Greece

Acts chapter 20 can be broken up into two short and one long section. Verses 1-6 briefly describes Paul's travels in Macedonia and Greece. Verses 7-12 describes the story of how a young man named Eutychus was raised from the dead. Verses 13-38 describes Paul's emotional farewell to the elders from Ephesus.

Read Acts 20:1. Paul, remember, is currently on his third missionary journey. { Hand out books with the third missionary journey maps. Ask them to find Ephesus on their maps } My commentary said Paul had four main things he wanted to accomplish: 1) Leave Ephesus; 2) preach in Troas on his way to Macedonia { Ask the group to find Troas on their maps }; 3) meet Titus at Troas with a report from Corinth. This is based on 2 Corinthians 2:12-13; and 4) continue collecting an offer for the church in Judea. This is based on 1 Corinthians 16:1-4, 2 Corinthians 8:1-4. The Jerusalem (http://www.associatedcontent.com/topic/19209/jerusalem.html) church, at this time, may have been poverty stricken either because of famine or because of persecution.

Read Acts 20:2-3. Luke does not give us specifics about Paul's travel through Macedonia into Greece, but it is believed that the three months spent in Greece was in Corinth. { Ask group to look at their maps again and trace Paul's estimated path from Ephesus to Corinth } My commentary said that these three months were probably the winter months, when it would not have been safe to sail. It is during his time in Corinth that he would have received the collection for the relief of the Judean Christians. { Put up symbol of money bags on flannel board }

When Paul's three months are up, he wants to sail back to Syria (that is Antioch), but discovers a plot against him. My commentary proved this information: "The Jews were determined to take Paul's life; also, at this time he was carrying the offering for the Christians in Judea, so there would have been a temptation for theft as well. The port at Cenchrea would have provided a convenient place for Paul's enemies to detect him as he entered a ship to embark for Syria." So, at the last minute, it sounds like, he changes his mind and decides to retrace his route through Greece and Macedonia.

Why is Macedonia and Greece mentioned as separate countries? Because they are different nations since the beginning of existence.

Regulus
15-01-11, 21:27
A tremendous misuse of the writer's time-

The New testament is replete with exact names on regions, cities, etc. I find no mention of Italy, Greece, Anatolia or Asia Minor, etc. So the verse-slinging proves nothing.

I don't know if there will be any appreciable agreement with modern Macedonians and Greeks, but calling todays Greeks "fakes" is cruel besides being devoid of facts.

DejaVu
15-01-11, 21:43
To speak mixed dialect of ancient Greeks and live in todays Greek territory are no proof of claiming same ancestry of antiquity (evidence).

Where is the proof to call todays Greeks for fake?
If you havent followed what have been posted here then you wont know, read the thread.
Does not mean all inhabitants, maybe some can prove their origin in acceptable way (?)

Fake Greeks = People from todays Greece who claim ancestry from antiquity without evidence. Nothing cruel about that, its a fact. People who dont want to accept the truth that todays nations have mixed population and deny the self determination of inhabitants, will always be fake and todays Greece and Greeks represent it.

Regulus
15-01-11, 21:51
To speak mixed dialect of ancient Greeks and live in todays Greek territory are no proof of claiming same ancestry of antiquity (evidence).

Fake Greeks = People from todays Greece who claim ancestry from antiquity without evidence. Nothing cruel about that, its a fact.

Whatever...

Thomas15n
16-01-11, 08:53
Fake Greeks = People from todays Greece who claim ancestry from antiquity without evidence. Nothing cruel about that, its a fact. People who dont want to accept the truth that todays nations have mixed population and deny the self determination of inhabitants, will always be fake and todays Greece and Greeks represent it.

ANSWER TO SKOPIAN = FAKE MACEDONIAN

"Below is a report on a study done by Stanford University in the USA and by Pavia University in Italy.
Their research has concluded that the DNA make-up of today's Greek is 99.5% the same as the DNA make-up of the Hellenes (Greeks) of ancient times.


Summary:

1) The DNA make-up of today's Greeks is 99.5% white. The study cliams that today's Greek has 99.5% the same DNA make-up as as the white Greeks of ancient times.

2) Contrary to beliefs by many in Turkey and certain Slavic nations of ex-Yugoslavia, Greek DNA has not been influenced, nor altered, by the mixture of Slavic or Turkish DNA, even though Ottomans ruled a large part of Greece for 400 years.

3) Out of a sample of 925 modern-day Greek DNA, only 0.4% exhibited non-white DNA.

4) To a large extenet, Greeks of the ancient time "transfered" their DNA to other parts of Europe through their conquests. The study showed that, today, Greek DNA is most similar to: a) Italian DNA, b) French DNA, c) Spanish DNA, d) Turkish DNA.

5) The DNA of Italians in modern day southern Italy is the closest match to the DNA of their Greek neighbors."

YOU SEE PROPAGANDIST LIAR WHAT SCIENCE SAYS.
AND AS FOR WHAT YOU ENTER FROM NEW TESTAMENT I CAN PUT HERE MORE PROOF AND IN THE PROTOTYPE BUT I'M AFRAID THAT YOU CAN NOT READ, BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW GREEK.
IF YOU WANT SOME I CAN PUT HERE A LOT. SO STOP WRITE NONSENSE.

Thomas15n
16-01-11, 09:07
By the word “Javan” the Hebrews designate not only the Greeks but the: Macedonians, and the whole of that tract which is divided by the Hellespont, from Asia Minor as far as Illyricum. Therefore the meaning is — the king of Greece.

I'm thinking that You must have a problem in your mind, you are unable to understand the meaning of the words?
The Hebrews even today when the say Javan the mean Greek and NO OTHER NATION ONLY GREEK.
The Old Testament the "SEPTUAGINTA" translated in Ptolemaic Alexandria by Hebrews Rabbies and noblemen for the Hebrews of Egypt because they were speaking only Greek and they don't spoke hebrew, when they translated they knew about Macedonians of course but they don't enter the name "macedonian" but they wrote only the name "greek" in the prophecy of Daniel.
Because they knew that macedonians are greek as well as the other greeks, Ionians Spartans Epirotes etc.

Thomas15n
16-01-11, 09:19
In Roman times when the Paul lived the Empire was divided in provinces and all provinces had names as Thracia, Epirus Vetus (greek Epirus), Epirus Novus (today Albania), Macedonia, Achaia, Asia (Ionia and Aeolia), Bithynia, Lycia, Karia, Pontus, Creta, Cyprus etc.
So What You are trying to proove that macedonia had different name!!!

Even today all countries have provinces with different names that means these provinces are different nation!!! Are You serious? Sorry but You must have some problem.

Thomas15n
16-01-11, 09:52
ΠΡΑΞΕΙΣ ΤΩΝ ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΩΝ 7:1-17
Διοδευσαντες δε τηνΑμφιπολιν και Απολλωνιαν ηλθον εις Θεσσαλονικην οπου ην η συναγωγη των Ιουδαιων κατα δε το ειωθος τω Παυλω εισηλθεν προς αυτους και επι σαββατα τρια διελεξατο αυτοις απο των γραφων διανοιγων και παρατιθεμενος οτι τον Χριστον εδει παθειν και αναστηναι εκ νεκρων και οτι ουτος εστιν ο Χριστος Ιησους ον εγω καταγγελλω υμινκαι τινες εξ αυτων επεισθησαν και προσεκληρωθησαν τω παυλω και τω Σιλα των τε σεβομενων Ελληνων πολυ πληθος γυναικων τε των πρωτων ουκ ολιγαι προσλαβομενοι δε οι Ιουδαιοι οι απειθουντες των αγοραιων τινας ανδρας πονηρους και οχλοποιησαντες εθορυβουν την πολιν επισταντες τε τη οικια Ιασονος εζητουν αυτους αγαγειν εις τον δημονμη ευροντες δε αυτους εσυρον τον Ιασονα και τινας αδελφους επι τους πολιταρχας βοωντες οτι οι την οικουμενην αναστατωσαντες ουτοι και ενθαδε παρεισιν ους υποδεδεκται ιασων και ουτοι παντες απεναντι των δογματων Καισαρος πρασσουσιν βασιλεα λεγοντες ετερον ειναι Ιησουν εταραξαν δε τον οχλον και τους πολιταρχας ακουοντας ταυτα και λαβοντες το ικανον παρα του Ιασονος και των λοιπων απελυσαν αυτους
Οι δε αδελφοι ευθεως δια της νυκτος εξεπεμψαν τον τε παυλον και τον Σιλαν εις Βεροιαν οιτινες παραγενομενοι εις την συναγωγην απηεσαν των Ιουδαιων ουτοι δε ησαν ευγενεστεροι των εν Θεσσαλονικη οιτινες εδεξαντο τον λογον μετα πασης προθυμιας το καθ ημεραν ανακρινοντες τας γραφας ει εχοι ταυτα ουτως πολλοι μεν ουν εξ αυτων επιστευσαν και των Ελληνιδων γυναικων των ευσχημονων και ανδρων ουκ ολιγοι ως δε εγνωσαν οι απο της Θεσσαλονικης Ιουδαιοι οτι και εν τη Βεροια κατηγγελη υπο του παυλου ο λογος του θεου ηλθον κακει σαλευοντες τους οχλους ευθεως δε τοτε τον Παυλον εξαπεστειλαν οι αδελφοι πορευεσθαι ως επι την θαλασσαν υπεμενον δε ο τε σιλας και ο τιμοθεος εκει οι δε καθιστωντες τον παυλον ηγαγον αυτον εως Αθηνων και λαβοντες εντολην προς τον Σιλαν και Τιμοθεον ινα ως ταχιστα ελθωσιν προς αυτον εξηεσαν.

ACTS 7:1-15
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue. Paul, as was his custom, went in to them, and for three Sabbath days reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, "This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ." Some of them were persuaded, and joined Paul and Silas, of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and not a few of the chief women. But the unpersuaded Jews took along some wicked men from the marketplace, and gathering a crowd, set the city in an uproar. Assaulting the house of Jason, they sought to bring them out to the people. When they didn't find them, they dragged Jason and certain brothers before the rulers of the city, crying, "These who have turned the world upside down have come here also, whom Jason has received. These all act contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, Jesus!" The multitude and the rulers of the city were troubled when they heard these things. When they had taken security from Jason and the rest, they let them go.
The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Beroea. When they arrived, they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Many of them therefore believed; also of the prominent Greek women, and not a few men. But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was proclaimed by Paul at Beroea also, they came there likewise, agitating the multitudes. Then the brothers immediately sent out Paul to go as far as to the sea, and Silas and Timothy still stayed there. But those who escorted Paul brought him as far as Athens. Receiving a commandment to Silas and Timothy that they should come to him very quickly, they departed.

Thessalonica, Beroea, Amphipolis, Appolonia cities of Macedonia Roman Era.

Those Greeks in Thessalonica and those Greek women in Beroea, were Slavs, Jews, Latins Chinese, Japanese, Mayas, Ethiopians, Negroafricans or What!!! because says Greeks and Greek women.

Now I'm sure 100% Apostles Luke (writer of the acts) and Paul sure was progreek propagandists as well as the Hebrews of Alexandria the Prophet Daniel the Angel and even God himself.
All them knew that these people were macedonian slavs and tried to hide it.
 

LeBrok
16-01-11, 18:53
Can you link us with this study? I'm curious how many DNA from Hellenes times, or any ancient Greek period, got analyzed to figure out Y and X DNAs of original population. Where the slaves included as Greeks or separated in ancient DNA tests? What is their definition of "White" DNA? Was the sample of today's Greeks as random (all citizens included) or selected only form secluded mountain/villages population?

Sorry but if after 3000 years of rich history someone tells me that Greeks are 99.5% the same, I'm at least a bit sceptical.
You are not, because that's exactly what you want to believe in. Somehow it makes you a real Greek if you are of ancient, white, no change stock with a bible in your hand.

PS. I have greek friends and don't care how they look like, or what they believe in. But now after reading your post I'll send them for DNA testing, as they might not be the good white greek stock, not worhy of my friendship.

Regulus
16-01-11, 20:07
The link to the study would be of help.

I think that the stresses on the word "white" that keep coming up in this thread are not intended to raise the image of white people per se or to put anyone else down. It looks to me that the intention of those who use that word is to contradict those who hold that the ancient Greeks (I assume Mycenaeans) were a Black people. I have come across this a number of times before I joined this forum.

Before anyone reads the following, I will have to again lay it out that I disdain any idea of racial supremacy, so please do not twist my words around:

Those from Iberia, Southern Italy, and Greece are often confronted with the claim that their countries were originally populated with Black Africans.
An old insult hurled at Iberians is the "Africa begins at the Pyrenees".
The Italians are told that Sicily and Southern Italy was populated by large numbers of Blacks, and the Greeks are told that pretty much the same.

Some revisionists who come from an anti-white movement have put out the claims that the achievements of the ancient Greeks were actually the result of blacks who inhabited Greece or of blacks who had their knowledge stolen from them in Africa by an army of Greeks.

The claims that Hannibal was either himself a black or that he brought along a huge army of blacks still rears its head here and there. I recently even came across a website that was dedicated to proving the Celts were black.

The "Moors" who came with the Arab/Berber armies are depicted by those who make similar claims as Black Africans.

As I noted in my first post on this thread, the part of the African continent that was inhabited by blacks was almost entirely sub-Saharan.
Even today, the bulk of North Africa is populated by those of Berber, Arab, Greek, and Phoenician descent.

In the specific case of Greece, I would allow that there would be a small amount of genetic differences from ancient days to today. The debilitating wars in the peninsula could have caused drain on population growth and many of the original inhabitants (for example Helots) of the peninsula were not authorized or allowed to be soldiers/hoplites except in unusual circumstances. The property requirement may have resulted in a drain on the population growth of those who were allowed to fight and a means for the ones without citizenship to have more children reach adulthood.
There would of course be admixtures from Slavs and others.
Having said that, we need to get away from claiming that todays Greeks are different in substance from ancient Greeks. It has no historical basis and let’s look to what we can glean from DNA results. That will give us the best idea of what is what.

The whole Macedonian name thing is, in my opinion, going nowhere. It brings out such raw emotions. Though we know that there were [never] really any hard borders defining one people/tribe from another in Europe, we don't have Slavic peoples moving en masse anywhere near that far South at that time.
Slavic peoples have contributed great things and don’t need to reach back and lay claims to the work of others to justify themselves.
Again, let’s look to see what we can agree on in the middle and learn from DNA testing results.

I have slightly altered my opinion and now lean towards the ancient Macedonians still as being mostly Dorian Greeks, but with some admixture from other Balkans peoples of the time. I could very well be wrong here, but we come here to learn.
I get the feeling that we want to deny anything that goes against what we want the truth to be and put emphasis only on things that totally support what we want. At some point we need a compromise that Macedonian can mean slightly different peoples depending on the time period about which we are speaking.

iapetoc
16-01-11, 21:15
Well to inform you all
THE PROBLEM STARTS IN 1876.
when the turks knew they lost area the sell everything and went away,
for cheap prices,
that make people the buy land and move in area,
in 1880-90 schools were allowed to build,
schools were build via 2;1 greek bulgarian and also romanian !!!!! in south makedonia,
by a rich roman with many hectars,
in 1912 people were confused from 4 languages, when language is nationality ata that time,
after the war came 2nd WW and a big kids transfer and exile ffrom and for the communist party,
if you visit Hungaria you realize that,
now a part of greeks lived in aother areas,
for example Monasterion (bitola) has 40 000 refuges in greece in balkans war and Greek had no one that time,
that is the region why demanding lands stoped from Fyrom. cause they will give more than they take,
same happened with bulgaria,
greeks from phillipopolis and burgs came greece, but the bulgarian accept none in their lands, simply they sent them to fyrom,
besides santasky is a bulgar,

about ancient times,
according to history myrmidons who were thracians moved north and helped makednos (both myrmidos and makednos sons of hercules)
look at that mycenean in south, mysian at troy, moesian in north thrace but were else?
myceene ->maceente ->makedonia
the makedonians of olymp and west south makedonia push thracians tribe pieri to east to strymon, and later change name to maedi pieri push bithyni and they went east to minor asia,
besides makedonians also pushed Vrygoi ->phrygians and they left,
PELLA cames from the epirotan Pellas means old, as pelias pelion etc, AS THE MOUNT PELLION,
Δεδιοκται τοις πελασιν said alexander in india for the old makedonians to return home,
besides there is city named Balla in pieria which belong to makedonians,
the makedonians conquer all and most of central ans west makedonia and later visaltia,
The GREEK MAKEDONIA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ROMAN MAKEDONIA,
cause in roman makedonia are parts of Paeones (thrasian tribe) and Dardanoi (iilyrothracian tribe)
in many map i saw there are mistakes,
for example paiones lived near and north of axios-bardar iron gates, besides paeonian and maedi had similar thracian-grecothracian with east makedonian,
in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychius_of_Alexandria
we have the makedonian language before koine which is primary greek

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychius_of_Alexandria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language

now slavomakedonians have no common with that languge,
cause its total Greek 90% and has its own aeolic and thracian dialect,

Now st Paul names makedon cuase it total logical from taursus (turk-us) to say according romans province, besides the man was turk-hebrew,
when i go to bosna i go see bosnians not serbs or bulgarians,
BUT THAT [email protected] MAKE BULGARIANS NOT SLAVS
if you GO TO TEXAS THEN YOU SEE TEXANS, DOES THAT MEANS THE NYRKERS ARE NOT AMERICANS?????
for any existing god shake,
BESIDES MAKEDONIANS WORSHIP DRU OAK TREE AND GOATS, LIKE DRYOP PEOPLE
NOT GODDES MARA !!!!!!!!!!!

Elias2
16-01-11, 21:27
What I find really ironic is that of all the ancient peoples in the balkans, we have the most information about the greeks, not the illyrians and peanoians(sp.), yet we still have a discussion on who were really greek or not :confused2: Pakistan as the same right to call themselves macedonians as do the people of FYROM, based on the grounds our 'macedonian' friend is giving, tf you live in a region conquered by alexander or phillip, you have the right to be called macedonian.

As Macimo stated earlier, greece has always been a melting pot of different peoples, the greek identity has never been about ethnicity but about culture. The macedonians were hellenized peoples, this is a fact. They did what they did in the name of hellenism. So for me, to call yourself macedonian, or contemporary terminology as greek, you need to be hellenic. Would there be such a big fuss is the slavic people of fyrom spoke greek? no of course not. But there is alot of contemporary political issues involved in this that stems from the balkan wars, and not from 300 B.C.

how yes no 2
16-01-11, 21:36
Well to inform you all
BESIDES MAKEDONIANS WORSHIP DRU OAK TREE AND GOATS, LIKE DRYOP PEOPLE
NOT GODDES MARA !!!!!!!!!!!

I do not want to argue whether Dorians were really of same origin as other Greeks, as they seems to have been dominantly R1a (and maybe some I2a2 and G) while original ancient Greeks were most likely J2 (with hellenized E-V13)....

but worship of oak tree is very Slavic thing... in fact in day before Christmas you will see in Serbia custom of burning branches of oak tree which is most likely related to symbolical depart from old oak tree related religion in order to accept christianity....


According to the Book of Veles, Slavic religion recognizes three realms: Yav, Prav, and Nav, Yav being the material world, Nav the immaterial, and Prav being the laws that govern them. The emphasis on the three realms is particularly characteristic for the Slavic neopaganists that draw on the Book of Veles.
Main symbol of ancient Slavic cosmogonic ideas was the World Tree. Slavs imagined that all three realms are vertically situated on an gigantic oak tree, that holds the whole Universe. In its crown was Slavic Heaven/paradise, so called Svarga, residence of Svarog, or Iriy. At the oak's trunk was the world of living creatures, the reality - Yav. In the oak's roots was Hell, residence of Chernobog, Morena, and Zmey.
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Slavic_religion


btw. this makes me wonder of relation between Celtic and Slavic people...
as I just figured out that word druid is about the one who sees into oak tree, which would in fact mean that it is the person that has access to all three realms: material, imaterial, and to laws that govern first 2 realms...


druid
An ancient Celtic priest or soothsayer. Compounded of daru-, dru, "oak", and wid-, "know"; hence literally meaning "they who know the oak"; so called with reference to their practices with mistletoe.
http://wordinfo.info/unit/677/ip:5/il:d

Slavic related words to dru and wid
'drvo' = tree
'vid' = vision, to see

DejaVu
16-01-11, 22:43
Mr analphabet and fake Greek (Thomas15n) link to the evidence you just posted. Never heard anything about existence of white race DNA. What DNA is Greek? No link = missing evidence.

Summary:

1) The DNA make-up of today's Greeks is 99.5% white. The study cliams that today's Greek has 99.5% the same DNA make-up as as the white Greeks of ancient times. (no link)

2) Contrary to beliefs by many in Turkey and certain Slavic nations of ex-Yugoslavia, Greek DNA has not been influenced, nor altered, by the mixture of Slavic or Turkish DNA, even though Ottomans ruled a large part of Greece for 400 years. (no link)

3) Out of a sample of 925 modern-day Greek DNA, only 0.4% exhibited non-white DNA. (no link)

4) To a large extenet, Greeks of the ancient time "transfered" their DNA to other parts of Europe through their conquests. The study showed that, today, Greek DNA is most similar to: a) Italian DNA, b) French DNA, c) Spanish DNA, d) Turkish DNA. (no link)

5) The DNA of Italians in modern day southern Italy is the closest match to the DNA of their Greek neighbors." (no link)




Javan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javan
Javan (Hebrew (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hebrew_language) יָוָן, Standard Hebrew (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Standard_Hebrew) Yavan, Tiberian Hebrew (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Tiberian_Hebrew) Yāwān) was the fourth son of Noah (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Noah)'s son Japheth (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Japheth) according to the "Table of Nations (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Table_of_Nations)" (Genesis chapter 10) in the Hebrew Bible (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hebrew_Bible). Flavius Josephus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Flavius_Josephus) states the traditional view that this individual was the ancestor of the Greek people (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_people).
Also serving as the Hebrew (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hebrew) name for Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece) or Greeks in general, Yavan or (Tiberian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Tiberian_Hebrew)) Yāwān (יָוָן) is probably cognate with the name of the eastern Greeks, the Ionians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ionians) (Greek Iōnes, earlier Ia(w)ones). The Greek race has been known by cognate names throughout the Eastern Mediterranean (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mediterranean) and beyond—even in Sanskrit (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sanskrit) (yavana (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Yavana)). In Greek mythology (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_mythology), the eponymous forefather of the Ionians is similarly called Ion (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ion_(mythology)), a son of Apollo (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Apollo).
Javan is also found in apocalyptic literature (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Apocalyptic_literature) in the Book of Daniel (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Book_of_Daniel), 8:21-22 and 11:2, in reference to the King of Greece (יון)—most commonly interpreted as a reference to Alexander the Great (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Alexander_the_Great).
While Javan is generally associated with the ancient Greeks and Greece (cf. Gen. 10:2, Dan. 8:21, Zech. 9:13, etc.), his sons (as listed in Genesis 10) are usually associated with locations in the Northeastern Mediterranean Sea and Anatolia: Elishah (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Elishah) (modern Cyprus), Tarshish (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Tarshish) (modern southern Turkey), Kittim (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Kittim) (modern Cyprus), and Dodanim (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Dodanim) (alt. 1 Chron. 1:7 'Rodanim,' the island of Rhodes (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Rhodes), west of modern Turkey between Cyprus and the mainland of Greece).

When someone conquers a land of other people is he not king of that land?
Where is it mentioned Alexander III Macedon was Greek?, but only king of Javan (Grecia).
What did the Hebrews mean when they wrote Javan (Grecia) in that time?

And who was the King of Modern and Fake Greece?, a German from Bavaria a non-Greek king who was the King of Greece. All are not Greeks in todays Greece.

Otto of Greece
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece)
Otto, prince of Bavaria or Othon, king of Greece (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Ὄθων, Βασιλεὺς τῆς Ἑλλάδος, Óthon, Vasiléfs tis Elládos; 1 June 1815 – 26 July 1867) was made the first modern King (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/List_of_Greek_monarchs) of Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Kingdom_of_Greece) in 1832 under the Convention of London (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/London_Conference_of_1832), whereby Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece) became a new independent kingdom under the protection of the Great Powers (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Great_Powers) (the United Kingdom (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/United_Kingdom_of_Great_Britain_and_Ireland), France (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/July_Monarchy) and the Russian Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Russian_Empire)).


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Noahsworld_map.png/402px-Noahsworld_map.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Noahsworld_map.png)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodanim
Dodanim or Rodanim, (דודנים), (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Ρόδιοι) was, in the Book of Genesis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Book_of_Genesis), a son of Javan (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Javan) (thus, a great-grandson of Noah (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Noah)). He is usually associated with the people of the island of Rhodes (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Rhodes) as their progenitor. "-im" is a plural suffix in Hebrew, and the inhabitants of Rhodes were also called Rodanim or Dodanim. Traditional Hebrew manuscripts are split between the spellings Dodanim and Rodanim — one of which is probably a copyist's error, as the Hebrew letters for R and D are nearly identical. The Samaritan Pentateuch (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Samaritan_Pentateuch) has Rodanim.
They have also been connected with the Trojan (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Trojan) Dardanoi (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Dardanoi). The Dodanim were considered either kin to the Greeks (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greeks) or simply Greeks. Dodanim was the son of Javan (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Javan), and his brothers were Elishah (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Elishah), Tarshish (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Tarshish) and Chittim (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Chittim).
In Pseudo-Philo (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pseudo-Philo) (c. 70), Dodanim's sons are Itheb, Beath, and Phenech; the last of these is made prince of the Japhethites at the time of the Tower of Babel (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Tower_of_Babel).

Trojans And Dardanians are Greeks?, or are they?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiras
Tiras was, according to Genesis 10 (http://bibref.hebtools.com/?book=%20Genesis&verse=10&src=NIV) and Chronicles 1, the last-named son of Japheth (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Japheth) who is otherwise unmentioned in the Hebrew Bible (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hebrew_Bible). According to the Book of Jubilees (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Book_of_Jubilees), the inheritance of Tiras consisted of four large islands in the ocean.
Josephus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Josephus) wrote that Tiras became ancestor of the "Thirasians" (Thracians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thracians)). These were the first fair-haired people mentioned in antiquity (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_history) according to Xenophanes (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Xenophanes), and were later known as the Getae (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Getae) according to historians beginning with Herodotus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Herodotus) (4.93, 5.3). Tiras or Tyras (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Tyras) in antiquity was also the name of the Dniester (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Dniester) river, and of a Greek colony situated near its mouth.
Some, including Noah Webster (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Noah_Webster), have suggested that Tiras was worshiped by his descendants as Thor (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thor), the god of thunder, equating both these forms with the Θουρος (Thouros) mentioned by Homer (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Homer) as the "Ares (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ares) (Mars) of the Thracians". The Icelandic saga Prose Edda (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Prose_Edda) names Thor (or Tror) as a fair-haired chieftain ancestral to the Germanic peoples, and a king of Thrace.

Thracians are Greeks? Archeologists have found Greek language inscriptions on coins from Thracians as they have with Macedonian coins but no Greek mention that.

If we belive in this then the Greeks are same as Thracians, Trojans, Dardanians and many more. This is against the evidence or believes of todays scholars.

iapetoc
16-01-11, 22:56
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dryope

want more the burning of woods to warm new born jesus is also in greece, reach until thessaly, but orthodox church forbids it as non christian,
dryope means hole
dry the oak
oph is a hole but also something that let you see in

about dorians
it happened in 800 BC after myrmidons, and makedonian
hercules son of temenos went north to find his people, to thessaly born makednos myrmidos etc
then his sons sons went back,
THAT IS THE REASON THAT 1 OF 2 KINGS MUST BE DORIAN AND 1 ACHAIC,
CAUSE DORIANS IS THE RETURNS OF TEMENIDS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temenids

Dorians named after Doris the city
besides Dory spear not dori comes from drys
the similarity of burning trees from athens and north has to do with the passage of driopes,
cause dryopes past to minor asia via athenes, and another group went to epirus,
they speak aetolian, common with makedonian,
The makedonians pushed and conguer thracians tribes but they also had thracians among them as paysants etc,

BUT YOU DID ANSWER ME ABOUT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychius_of_Alexandria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language

is any of these words similar to skopje people????????
I quess not
cause makedonians Speak Makedonian subaeolian dialect of Greeks,
the 3 thracian approach has to do J I and E
were J2 exists we have greco-thrasian,
were I exist we have slavo-thracian
were E exists we have illyro-daco-thracian,
i Repeat that thracian is the same with Tyrrshenian ->thyrssenian rr-> thrysenian->1 thracian 2 phrygian

besides gaetto dacian - thracian
today are not recognized by bulgars cause for propaganda reasons

watch that about phrygian lingua
Galatian and Greek (which also exhibits a high amount of isoglosses with Phrygian)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language

as you see the grecothracians tribes were totally homogenized to greek koine,
daco-gaete to romano-latin
and the rest to slavo-thracian

besides greek bull
bolinthros from boltavr
today tayros and bous vus
bulg
bol
does that means that bulgarians are greeks or the fyrom are greeks?
no way its IE
but relation to sound and other words connects more Fyrom to bulgaria and not ancient makedonia.

before 1912 and at 1940 these people were caled buggari in some greek areas,
meaning that local people knew more than we did,

iapetoc
16-01-11, 23:07
you are wrong i said many times thoukidides sais that before archaic athenes spoked thyrrsenian, -thracian, but from many lexicon i read the thracian greek is almost similar with koine, same roots different pronounse,
the fact that greeks used koine to communicate it was 1 first attempt to unite dialects,
among them the subaeolian makedonia dialect,
so tell me no one mentions that

DejaVu
16-01-11, 23:17
Much talk about Dorians and did you know that they never existed (because there is no evidence)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_invasion
Despite nearly 200 years of investigation the historicity of the Dorian invasion has never been established. The meaning of the concept has become to some degree amorphous. The work done on it has mainly served to rule out various speculations. The possibility of a real Dorian invasion remains open.

This forum is about genetics not only History talk just show me what DNA is Greek, Macedonian, Thracian and so on if not its just writing of own speculations like they had in ancient times and that is worthless as evidence.

You have written that you are Macedonian because of Haplogroup G but there is no such evidence today that can confirm your statement and why dont all Greeks have same DNA, if they are same people? The answer is simple Haplogroups have mixed before nations existed.

All can speculate about ethnicity but none can confirm with evidence. All people have the right to self-determination and that does not prove their original ethnicity (whatever that means) and who cares whatever you are when all people have same root.

how yes no 2
16-01-11, 23:27
Much talk about Dorians and did you know that they never existed (because there is no evidence)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_invasion
Despite nearly 200 years of investigation the historicity of the Dorian invasion has never been established. The meaning of the concept has become to some degree amorphous. The work done on it has mainly served to rule out various speculations. The possibility of a real Dorian invasion remains open.
ancient Macedonians are identified as Dorians by Herodotus...

DejaVu
16-01-11, 23:52
What is Dorians a people or a country? Time to play your own game now HOW YES NO what about The Dorians are same as The tribe of Dan does this mean I have right about my statement?

Who have the right to identify other people and confirm or prove their ethnicity? Did not self-determination exist in ancient times, all got their peoples names by others?

Time to wake up.

how yes no 2
17-01-11, 00:10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dryope

want more the burning of woods to warm new born jesus is also in greece, reach until thessaly, but orthodox church forbids it as non christian,
dryope means hole
dry the oak
oph is a hole but also something that let you see in
dryope would be same word as druid? this looks as Celtic tribe...


Dryopes
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dryopes or Dryopians (Ancient Greek: Δρύοπες) were a tribe of ancient Greece. According to Herodotus, they had once lived in a place called Dryopis (Δρυοπίς), later known as Doris.[1] They were driven out by the Malians (and supposedly Heracles), some of the refugees making their way to Ermioni.[2] Some also ended up at Styria in Euboea, Kynthos, and Asine in Messenia.[3] Later, Thucydides identifies Carystus as Dryopian, but nearby Styria as Ionian.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dryopes
could they in fact be Dorians?


about dorians
it happened in 800 BC after myrmidons, and makedonian
hercules son of temenos went north to find his people, to thessaly born makednos myrmidos etc
then his sons sons went back,
perhaps they were not really related to him but it was cool to live in Greece :)



Dorians named after Doris the city
besides Dory spear not dori comes from drys


1) if they were named by city they would be Dryopians? as that seems to have been the name of city before their arrival...

2) if Dryopians is same as Dorians, than they are celtic tribe?

we have seen on other threads that Strabo thought how Germans were original Celts...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362949&postcount=51

but we also saw that word German might have been related to word spear....
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362458&postcount=47


BUT YOU DID ANSWER ME ABOUT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychius_of_Alexandria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language

is any of these words similar to skopje people????????
I quess not
I cannot conclude anything based on several words....
but it seems Greek related and not Slavic related

note that tribes change languages much more easily than one would expect.... look at the latin... it was spoken only around small village called Rome, and now languages derived from it are spoken in whole Italy, france, Spain, Portugal, Romania, latin america...
point is that language tells us not much about ethnic origin of tribe and genetics suggests that ancient Macedonians or Dorians were quite different from other Greeks...



the 3 thracian approach has to do J I and E
were J2 exists we have greco-thrasian,
were I exist we have slavo-thracian
were E exists we have illyro-daco-thracian,
i Repeat that thracian is the same with Tyrrshenian ->thyrssenian rr-> thrysenian->1 thracian 2 phrygian

I am not convinced...thracians were separate people from Greeks... their language was not understandable by Greeks... from what I rememebr (not sure how credible source was) their language was satem PIE as today are Balto-Slavic and Albanian languages, and it did bear lot similarities with language of Balts, and few words common with Albanian

DejaVu
17-01-11, 00:35
iapetoc answers to you by the expert about Macedonia if you missed it.

Skopians are people from Skopje (capital) and all are not skopians in Republic of Macedonia.
Just say and write Macedonia, Macedonian and get angry or jealous :)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_N._Borza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_N._Borza)
Eugene N. Borza was a professor emeritus of ancient history at Pennsylvania State University (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pennsylvania_State_University). He has written many works on the ancient kingdom of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_(ancient_kingdom)).




Published works

1962 - The Bacaudae: A Study of Rebellion in Late Roman Gaul (University of Chicago, Department of History)
1974 - The Impact of Alexander the Great (http://books.google.com/books?id=kXtPAAAACAAJ&dq) (Dryden Press, ISBN 003090000X (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Special:BookSources/003090000X))
1990 - In the Shadow of Olympus: The Emergence of Macedon (http://books.google.com/books?id=614pd07OtfQC&printsec=frontcover&hl) (Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691008809 (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Special:BookSources/0691008809))
1995 - Makedonika (http://books.google.com/books?id=YtD5HQAACAAJ&dq=Makedonika&hl) (Regina Books, ISBN 0941690652 (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Special:BookSources/0941690652))
Eugene Borza

Who Were (and Are) the Macedonians?
(Abstract from a paper presented at the 1996 Annual meeting of the American PhilologicalAssociation http://www.apaclassics.org/AnnualMeeting/96program.html (http://www.apaclassics.org/AnnualMeeting/96program.html))
This paper seeks to illuminate the problems associated with determining the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians (were
they Greek?), and to discuss the "reverberations" (to use the organizers' term) of that issue in modem times. While the
1971 OED may regard the use of the word "ethnicity" as obsolete, no adequate substitute for the word exists. Indeed,
part of the discussion in my paper will, following the lead of Loring Danforth in his recent The Macedonian Conflict.-
Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World (Princeton 1995), attempt to illustrate some principles by which the "ethnicity"
of the ancient Macedonians--and, perhaps, other ancient peoples--can be discussed in a coherent manner.

Among the questions asked as appropriate to a methodological model of determining ethnicity are:

I. What were a people's origins and what language did they speak? From the surviving literary sources
(Hesiod, Herodotus, and Thucydides) there is little information about Macedonian origins, and the
archaeological data from the early period is sparse and inconclusive. On the matter of language, and despite
attempts to make Macedonian a dialect of Greek, one must accept the conclusion of the linguist R. A.
Crossland in the recent CAH, that an insufficient amount of Macedonian has survived to know what language
it was. But it is clear from later sources that Macedonian and Greek were mutually unintelligible in the court
of Alexander the Great. Moreover, the presence in Macedonia of inscriptions written in Greek is no more
proof that the Macedonians were Greek than, e.g., the existence of Greek inscriptions on Thracian vessels
and coins proves that the Thracians were Greeks.

II. Self-identity: what did the Macedonians say or think about themselves? Virtually nothing has survived
from the Macedonians themselves (they are among the silent peoples of antiquity), and very little remains in
the Classical and Hellenistic non-Macedonian sources about Macedonian attitudes.

III. What did others say about the Macedonians? Here there is a relative abundance of information from
Arrian, Plutarch (Alexander, Eumenes), Diodorus 17-20, Justin, Curtius Rufus, and Nepos (Eumenes),
based upon Greek and Greek-derived Latin sources. It is clear that over a five-century span of writing in two
languages representing a variety of historiographical and philosophical positions the ancient writers regarded
the Greeks and Macedonians as two separate and distinct peoples whose relationship was marked by
considerable antipathy, if not outright hostility.

IV. What is the nature of cultural expressions as revealed by archaeology? As above we are blessed with an
increasing amount of physical evidence revealing information about Macedonian tastes in art and decoration,
religion, political and economic institutions, architecture and settlement patterns. Clearly the Macedonians
were in many respects Hellenized, especially on the upper levels of their society, as demonstrated by the
excavations of Greek archaeologists over the past two decades. Yet there is much that is different, e. g., their
political institutions, burial practices, and religious monuments.

I will argue that, whoever the Macedonians were, they emerged as a people distinct from the Greeks who lived to the south and east. In time their royal court--which probably did not have Greek origins (the tradition in Herodotus that the Macedonian kings were descended from Argos is probably a piece of Macedonian royal propaganda)--became Hellenized in many respects, and I shall review the influence of mainstream Greek culture on architecture, art, and literary preferences.

how yes no 2
17-01-11, 00:42
What is Dorians a people or a country? Time to play your own game now HOW YES NO what about The Dorians are same as The tribe of Dan does this mean I have right about my statement?

Who have the right to identify other people and confirm or prove their ethnicity? Did not self-determination exist in ancient times, all got their peoples names by others?

Time to wake up.

Dorian and Dan do not sound to me as same tribal name...

I think that Makedon is not related to word Dan.... I believe it is related to Makeda/Sheba/Balkis who is mythical queen of Sheba,,,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Sheba

besides Macedonians are dominantly I2a2 people as Serbs are, and thus their spread is not likely to have started from Israel in rather recent times... I have already talked a lot about proto-Serbs being mentioned by Seneca as Serians as there is clear match of spread of Serians with Caspian Serboi/Siraces, Pasthun Sarban, Serres of northwest China and Sheba/Sabeans of Red sea.... and as European Serians he relates to Danube area...


if you look for people who origin from lost Israelite tribe of Dan, you need to search for more recent arrival from middle east... perhaps Dardanians as
Doron(Hebrew & old Greek)/Dora (Greek - δώρο)/Dar (Slavic) + Dan = gift of Dan which could be interpreted as offspring of Dan

DejaVu
17-01-11, 00:53
Are we talking about genetics or word matching?
What people think does not mean that is the right answer.

"The tribe of Dan also passed through this region, and the surrounding territory, leaving its name in Mace-DON-ia, and the Dar-DAN-elles, and to the north by the river DAN-ube. In the territory of Sarmatia (or Samaria, meaning the Israelites), were located the rivers DN-iper, DN-ister, and the DON."


The tribe of Dan

http://www.british-israel.ca/Dan.htm (http://www.british-israel.ca/Dan.htm)
When the 12 tribes of Israel actually took possession of the promised land, the tribe of Dan was allotted its tribal inheritance in the South Western area of that land.. Dan was situated west-Northwest of Judah; Dan's territory extended westward to the Mediterranean Sea, and included the busy port of Joppa, next to modern Tel-Aviv (Joshua 19:40-48).
Now the Danites migrated Northwards to Laish, and called the city Dan, after their father, see Judges 18. The northern city Laish, now called Dan, by the tribe of Dan, was about thirty miles inland from the ancient busy port of Tyre. Thus the ancient Danites must of had frequent contacts with the people of Tyre, which was in fact occupied by their brethren the tribe of Asher, see Joshua 19:29. So since their Israelite brothers occupied the land of Tyre, they had access to Tyre at anytime. These people of Tyre were a people of sea trade and navigation, see Ezekiel 27. These people built Tyre and Sidon on the Lebanese coast.
In the 1200's B.C., before Dan went to Laish, in a song commemorating a great Israelite victory, the Judge Deborah lamented that during the battle, the "men of Gilead stayed beyond the Jordan [River], and [asked] why DAN REMAINED IN SHIPS?" (Judges 5:17). The Danites were so preoccupied with the Sea and sea trade that they chose to remain in their ships than help their brethren. So even before the time they went to Laish, the Danites were already engaged in sea-faring activities.
J.C. Gawler quotes from the Chronicles of Ireland and says: "Again (p.123), 'The Danites ruled about two centuries until the arrival of the Milesians, which took place, 1000 years before the Christian era.' Thus the date of the arrival of the FIRST COLONY OF DANAANS WOULD BE 1200 B.C., or 85 years after Deborah and Baraks victory, when we are told Dan had ships...The early connection with Greece, Phoenician and Egypt is constantly alluded throughout the Chronicles [of Ireland] and records of the Irish Dannans" (Dan Pioneer of Israel, pp.30-31, emphasis added). After the first batch of Dannans left for Ireland, the remaining Danites migrated North 30 miles away from Tyre. These Danites that migrated North to Laish are the 3RD BATCH OF DANAANS THAT WENT TO IRELAND. These Danites worshipped Idol gods at that time, and brought them to Ireland, and Gawler points out, "The Psalter at Cashel says that the Tower of Tara was built for the preservation of the fire of Baal, and was called Bel Theine...and that the mark of Phoenicia and Israel [was] Baal worship" (ibid., p.31).
What route did the first batch of Danaans take? Irish Historian Thomas Moore says that one of the earliest resident peoples of Ireland-the Firbolgs-were dispossessed by the Tuatha de Danaans, "who after sojourning for some time in Greece...proceeded thence to Denmark and Norway" (History of Ireland, vol.1, p.59) Then the Danaans proceeded to Ireland. So we see a time span of about 85 years, after Deborah, the judge of Israel uttered those words about Dan in ships!
The word "Tuatha" simply means "tribe"-"Tuatha...Irish history...A 'Tribe' or 'people' in Ireland"' (New English Dictionary on Historical principles, vol.10, pt 1, p.441). The word Dan means Judge in the Hebrew. "Dan [Heb "Judge"] shall Judge his people as one of the tribes of Israel" (Gen 49:16). "It is certainly no coincidence that the Irish Gaelic word Dun or Dunn means Judge..."' (America and Britain in Prophecy, Raymond McNair, p.25, emphasis theirs).
Another Irish Historian Geoffrey Keating mentions the SECOND BATCH of Danites of Judges 18, who were the THIRD BATCH OF DANAANS that went to Ireland AFTER THE MILESIANS, and he says: "...the Danaans were a people of great learning and wealth; they left Greece after a battle with the ASSYRIANS and went to Ireland; and also to Denmark, and called it 'DAN-mares,' Dans' country" (History of Ireland, vol.1, pp.195, 199, emphasis added). When the Assyrians attacked in the 8th century, the Danites of the promised land, left and joined their brothers in Ireland, who already settled there in different waves of immigration. They left to get away from the battle with Assyria.
The Encyclopedia Britannica tells us that the ancestor of the Danaans was "According to late Danish tradition...Juteland [mainland Denmark] was acquired by DAN, THE ANCESTOR OF THE DANES FROM WHERE THEIR NAME DERIVES (under article 'Denmark,' vol.8, 11th edition, emphasis added). Like the Danites of old, they named Denmark after their father Dan.

Testimony of Josephus, the Jewish Historian
Jewish Historian Josephus shows that the Lacedemonian (Spartans of Greece) were actually Danites, and therefore closely related to the Jews. Josephus relates an incredible letter from Sparta to Judah: "
"Jonathan the high priest of the Jewish nation . . . to the ephori and senate and the people of the Lacedemonians, send greeting:
"When in former times an epistle was brought to Onias, who was then our high priest . . . we have discovered that both the Jews and the Lacedemonians are of ONE STOCK, and are derived from the KINDRED OF ABRAHAM...concerning the KINDRED THAT WAS BETWEEN US AND YOU, a copy of which is here subjoined, we both joyfully received the epistle . . . because we were well satisfied about it from the SACRED WRITINGS, yet did not we think fit, first to begin the claim of this RELATION TO YOU, the glory which is now given us by you. It is a long time since this relation of ours to you hath been renewed, and when we, upon holy and festival days offer sacrifices to God, we pray to Him for your preservation and victory . . . . You will, therefore, do well yourselves to write to us, and send us an account of what you stand in need of from us, since we are in all things disposed to act according to your desires...This letter is foursquare: and the seal is an eagle, with a dragon [snake or serpent] in its claws" ([I]Antiquities of the Jews, bk 12 chapter 4 sec 10; XIII, 5, 8, emphasis added).

The Lacedemonians received the Jewish ambassadors carrying the letter kindly and made a decree of friendship and mutual assistance with the Jews, and then sent the letter to their Lacedemonian kinsmen.
In Ancient Mythology, Bryant relates that Stephanus Byzantium shows that Alexander Polyhistor and Claudius Jolaus also speak of a direct relationship or kindship between the Spartan Greeks and the people of Judaea (vol.5, p.51-52, 60).

Dan -- A Serpent's Trail
Jacob prophesied that Dan would be a "Serpent by the way, an adder by the path," (Gen 9:16-17) meaning that he would leave a trail wherever he would go. In the Bible we have seen evidence of this naming everything after their father "Dan," see Joshua 19:47; Judges 18:12, 27-29. When the Danites migrated to Ireland, they left a trail of names throughout Europe. The city of Troy was located at the mouth of the Bosporus DarDANelles. From their they migrated into Europe and left names all over and into DANmark and Norway.
In Hebrew there are no vowels, so the name Dan is written DN, or its Hebrew equivalent. Thus words like Dan, Din, Don, Dun, Den, or Dn, correspond to the name of Dan.
Just west of the Black Sea, ancient geographers designated a region by the name of Moesia, which means the land of the "Moses-ites." These people revered a person whom they called Zal-moxis. "Zal" significes "chief," so this person, "chief Moxis" or "leader Moxis" was actually "chier MOSES," the man of God who led Israel to the promised land, and whom these people remembered as their original leader. The tribe of Dan also passed through this region, and the surrounding territory, leaving its name in Mace-DON-ia, and the Dar-DAN-elles, and to the north by the river DAN-ube. In the territory of Sarmatia (or Samaria, meaning the Israelites), were located the rivers DN-iper, DN-ister, and the DON.

Professor Totten declares:
"There is no grander theme upon the scrolls of history than the story of this struggle of the Anglo-Saxons westward. The very streams of Europe mark their resting places, and in the root of nearly all their ancient names (Dan, or Don) recall the sacred stream Jor-dan river of rest-- from whose whose hands, so far away, as exiles, they set out. It was either the little colony of Dan, obeying its tribal proclivity for naming everything it cap- turied (Jud.18:1-29) after their father, or else the mere survival of a word and custom; but, none the less, it serves to TRACE these wanderers LIKE A TRAIL. Hence the Dan-ube, the Dan-ieper, the Dan-iester, the Dan-au, the Daci and Davi, the Dan, the Don, the U-Don, the Eri-don, and the THOUSAND OTHER Dans and Dons of ancient and early geography, down to the Danes in Dan-emerke, or 'Dan's last resting place'" (quoted in Allen, Judah's Sceptre and Joseph's Birthright, p.263-64).
Denmark, the name of the modern country in Europe north of Germany, means, literally, "Dan's mark." It's people are called "Danes." In fact, because at one time Denmark ruled all the surrounding region, the whole region took its name from them the ScanDINavian peninsula! Clearly, here are remnants of the people of DAN, who migrated westward overland from the Caucasus to their present location in northern Europe!
However, other Danites, who dwelt or abode in ships, and who associated themselves with the sea peoples of Tyre and Sidon, fled westward through the Mediterranean when northern Israel fell. Early Danites fled Egypt migrated through SarDINia, and left their trail along the sea-coasts of the Mediterranean. Thus Dan, who was a "lion's whelp" who would "leap from Bashan," leaped all the way to Ireland, where historians explain that the early settlers were known as the "Tuatha de Danaan" -- literally, the "tribe of Dan." The Greeks called them the Danoi, the Romans called them Danaus.
In Ireland, today, we find their customary evidence -- their place names -- in abundance. Such names as Dans-Lough, Dan-Sower, Dan-Monism, Dun-dalke, Dun-drum, Don-egal Bay, Don-egal City, Dun-glow and Lon-don-derry, as well as Din-gle, Dun-garven and Duns-more, which means "MORE DANS." Of course, the most famous Irish ballad of all time is the song, "Danny Boy." It should be plain that the country of Ireland is replete, filled with names which derive from the ancient patriarch of the Hebrews -- DAN, the son of Jacob! It should be plain that the ancient Danites settled in Ireland, and most of them dwell in that land, today.

Conspiracy Topics
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread348619/pg1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread348619/pg1)
Historically the philistines, the Babylonians and Persians conquered the land of Canaan which the Hebrew people called Israel, the Hebrew tribes of Manesseh and Dan joined forces and became the Macedonians or Macedanians (Manasseh + Dan = Macedanians) they wore white kilts like the Egyptian pharaohs, played goat skinned bagpipes, adopted the Greek culture and settled along the River Danube which they named after the tribe of Dan.
THE EMPIRE OF "THE CITY" (World Superstate)
Part 1 http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...77383139148549 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4675077383139148549)#
Part 2 http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...43376785758889 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...43376785758889)

“The Viking long boat called Drakur flew the red and white striped flag, and even that the motif can be traced further back to the Tribe of Dan.”


http://www.britam.org/dan.html (http://www.britam.org/dan.html)
THE SYMBOLS OF DAN STILL USED TODAY!
Danes from the Israelite Tribe of Dan invaded Denmark at about the same time as the Naphtali moved in large numbers into Norway. The Tribe of Dan was represented by a snake or by a lion. Other accepted symbols of Dan were a pair of scales, an eagle, and a dragon. Many members of Dan settled in Denmark, in Ireland, in Wales, England, and the U.S.A. where 40-50 million people have Irish ancestry. The symbol of a snake was once worshipped in Ireland; a lion represents Denmark and England, Wales has a dragon on its flag, and the U.S.A. has an eagle.
Tribal Identification: Dan

Lion is also a Macedonian symbol (ancient and present) the other is the sun and so is the colours red and white (not on flag but for traditional macedonian folk dress).
And ofcourse this is no proof because many other use red and white colours (flags and symbols) and the lion.

how yes no 2
17-01-11, 01:03
Are we talking about genetics or word matching?
What people think does not mean that is the right answer.
both... read my other messages...

Serbs and Macedonians are dominantly I2a2 people
known Serboi/Siraces locations have clearly elevated haplogroup I
Pastun Sarbans are perfect trace of haplogroup I in not haplogroup I area...
area where Seres lived in northwest China shows clear trace of haplogroup I as well

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png


Israel people are not I2a2... Jews are dominantly E, J1, J2 mix which is more similar to Albanians and Greeks (previously known under tribal names respectively Dardanians and Danaans (Δαναοί))

=> Macedonians are not descendents of tribe of Dan
they are related to Serians...

and Serians of Red sea are Sheba with their mythical queen who was known as
Sheba/Makeda/Balkis

which I think subsequently gave: Serbia/Macedonia/Balkan

Makeda being her name in south parts of her country (same as Macedonia is south of Serbia), and Balkis being her name in Arabic islamic tradition, which is the reason area got name Balkan during the rule of Arab influenced Ottoman empire

btw. Bulgars might be related people, as their tribal name may origin from Balkis

DejaVu
17-01-11, 01:34
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:UDxATkow5nMJ:www.logon.org/english/s/p265.html+haplogroup+I+the+tribe+of+dan&cd=7&hl=sv&ct=clnk&gl=se

The YDNA groups


All other YDNA groups from G to R2 are derived from one central Haplogroup F. This F group is central to both Shem’s and Japheth’s known lineages. We will start with Lineage F, which is P14, M89, M213. This line is the basic line for G, H, I, J, and K.

We know that the lineages in known Semitic nations are G, I and J. There are also some lineages of E3b African or Hamitic lineages together with some R1a and R1b. These lineages with G also spread to Turkey, Georgia/Armenia and Italy.

Conventional wisdom identifies the Middle-East Arabs as Haplogroup J and the Jewish Aaronic priesthood, which has an identified clear lineage to Shem, is at J2. This Haplogroup division identifies also the Buba clan of the Lemba tribe of Zimbabwe as Aaronic priests, and they have been separated from the rest of Judah/Levi for up to 2,500 years. Thus the J2 division is at least as old as that separation.

There are also a significant number of divisions in Judaism that show that Judaism is a religion and not a single Haplogroup lineage.

For example, whilst the Aaronic priesthood is identified as J2, the Levitical structure of Ashkenazi Jews are 52% R1a1, which is an identified Japhethite lineage occurring in Russia and the Central and Eastern Steppes and among the Aryans in India. It is Slavic. Also, 25% of all East European Jews are E3b, which indicates an Hamitic origin.

One hypothesis concerning the E3b origin is that Egyptians interbred with the Israelites. Another is that the Mixed Multitude involved E3bs, as there were some two million Israelites and approximately six hundred thousand of the Mixed Multitude. That would constitute 25%. However, when we read the genetic accounts of the Milesians they claim to have been part of the mixed multitude also in the Exodus. They are R1b. Thus, the explanation must involve later conversions to Judaism from Hamitic lineages. We find these in the occupation of Canaan under Joshua.

Canaan was a son of Ham and a number of sub-tribes were spared and joined Israel in some cases by subterfuge. The Ethiopian conversions were also of significance and so we have ample explanation for the E3b lineages at 25% of the Ashkenazim. The Amorites and the Southern Hittites also entered and bred with Israel. There are also significant levels of E3b in Syria, Turkey and among the Greeks at up to 30%. The Greeks are up to 30% Haplogroup J or known Semites also with up to 20% Hg I as well, which is also a prevalent Haplogroup among both known Semites and Europeans.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/12_Tribes_of_Israel_Map.svg/394px-12_Tribes_of_Israel_Map.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/12_Tribes_of_Israel_Map.svg)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites)
The Israelites were a Hebrew (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hebrew_language)-speaking people of the Ancient Near East (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Near_East) who inhabited the Land of Israel (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Land_of_Israel) during the monarchic period (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah) (11th to 7th centuries BC).
The 11th century BC comprises all years from 1100 BC (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/1100_BC) to 1001 BC (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/1001_BC). Although many human societies were literate in this period.
The 7th century BC started the first day of 700 BC (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/700_BC) and ended the last day of 601 BC (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/601_BC).

Macedon/Macedonia:
The lands around Aegae, the first Macedonian capital, were home to various peoples. Macedonia was called Emathia (from king Emathion) and the city of Aiges was called Edessa, the capital of fabled king Midas. According to legend, Caranus, accompanied by a multitude of Greeks came to the area in search for a new homeland took Edessa and renamed it to Aegae. Subsequently, he expelled Midas and other kings off the lands and he formed his new kingdom. According to Herodot, it was Dorus, the son of Hellen who led his people to Histaeotis, whence they were driven off by the Cadmeians into Pindus, where they settled as Macedonians. Later, a branch would migrate further south to be called Dorians.
It seems that the first Macedonian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians) state emerged in the 8th or early 7th century BC under the Argead Dynasty (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Argead_Dynasty), who, according to legend, migrated to the region from the Greek city (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Polis) of Argos (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Argos) in Peloponnesus (thus the name Argead). The Macedonian tribe ruled by the Argeads, was itself called Argead (which translates as "descended from Argos").

When the destruction of Israel, c.722 BCE occurred, a nation was born named Mace-don (people from the tribe of Dan)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midas
Midas or King Midas (in Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Greek) Μίδας) is popularly remembered in Greek mythology (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_mythology) for his ability to turn everything he touched into gold (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Gold). This was called the Golden touch, or the Midas touch. He bears some relation to the historical Mita, king of the Mushki (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mushki) in Western Anatolia in the later 8th century BC.
There are some different accounts of Midas' life. In one, Midas was king of Pessinus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pessinus), a city of Phrygia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Phrygia), who as a child was adopted by the king Gordias (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Gordias) and Cybele (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Cybele), the goddess (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Goddess) whose consort he was, and who (by some accounts) was the goddess-mother of Midas himself. Some accounts place the youth of Midas in Macedonian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedon) Bermion (See Bryges (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Bryges)) In Thracian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thrace) Mygdonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mygdonia_(Europe)), Midas was known for his garden of roses: Herodotus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Herodotus) remarks on the settlement of the ancient kings of Macedon on the slopes of Mount Bermion "the place called the garden of Midas son of Gordias, where roses grow of themselves, each bearing sixty blossoms and of surpassing fragrance". In this garden, according to Macedonians, Silenos (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Silenus) was taken captive. According to the Iliad (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Iliad) (V.860), he had one son, Lityerses (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Lityerses), the demonic reaper of men, but in some variations of the myth he instead had a daughter, Zoë or "life".

When you talk about people or countries of today or antiquity its almost impossible to tell if they where same because of similar culture, language, genetics and more. All people with same religion, language and nation are not based on to exist because of same genetics.

Israeli peoples (modern or ancient) are not haplogroup I?
Can you really prove your statement about the origin of the Israelites and others like Macedonians and what genetics they had or have?
Then you will get the Nobel prize.

how yes no 2
17-01-11, 01:44
bunch of nonsense


For example, whilst the Aaronic priesthood is identified as J2, the Levitical structure of Ashkenazi Jews are 52% R1a1, which is an identified Japhethite lineage occurring in Russia and the Central and Eastern Steppes and among the Aryans in India. It is Slavic. Also, 25% of all East European Jews are E3b, which indicates an Hamitic origin.

Ashkenazi Jews have a lot of R1a not because of Israel descend but because they origin from Hazar state that was north of Caucasus... Hazar state took Jewish religion in order to be able to trade both with Christians and muslims...
only small part of them have origin of original Jews...

Magyars are for instance also very R1a
as were Scythians in past...

besides I do not think early Slavs were R1a
early Slavs were by Jordanes mentioned as race of Veneti, and I have shown elsewhere that Veneti were likely I2a2 people

besides take a look at spread of I2a2 and spread of early Slavs. Directions of spread are identical...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg/483px-Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Origins_500A.png
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

R1a doesnot show anything alike to the location and directions of spread of early Slavs...
R1a in Slavic countries are thus assimilated Scythians and Sarmatians whose tribal unions were broken by set of previous invaders and whose remains have joined early Slavs... btw. according to Klyosov R1a origins from Serbia, Bosnia and Macedonia as R1a is ancient old there and much younger elsewhere...

how yes no 2
17-01-11, 02:10
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/12_Tribes_of_Israel_Map.svg/394px-12_Tribes_of_Israel_Map.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/12_Tribes_of_Israel_Map.svg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites)
The Israelites were a Hebrew (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hebrew_language)-speaking people of the Ancient Near East (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Near_East) who inhabited the Land of Israel (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Land_of_Israel) during the monarchic period (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah) (11th to 7th centuries BC).
The 11th century BC comprises all years from 1100 BC (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/1100_BC) to 1001 BC (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/1001_BC). Although many human societies were literate in this period.
The 7th century BC started the first day of 700 BC (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/700_BC) and ended the last day of 601 BC (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/601_BC).
When you talk about people or countries of today or antiquity its almost impossible to tell if they where same because of similar culture, language, genetics and more. All nations are not based on to exist because of same religion, language, genetics etc.
Israeli peoples (modern or ancient) are not haplogroup I?
Can you really prove your statement about the origin of the Israelites and others like Macedonians and what genetics they had or have?
Then you will get the Nobel prize.


if first mention is really in 12th or 11th century BC that might mean they origin from sea peoples (same as Palestines probably origin from Pelast sea peoples who are likely Pelasgians)...Thus, tribes of Dan of Israel were just Denyen sea peoples who were just early Greeks participating in sea peoples conquest....

note that first historic mention of Sheba kingdom is related to 11th century as well and might be related to Sherdana sea people who left toponym Serboinian bog in Egypt...

so, sea peoples might have been set of different Balkan and Asia minor nations
e.g. Sherden being proto-Serbs (Serians), Lukka being Lycian, Pelast Pelasgian, Denyen being Greeks or tribes of Dan, Tjekker being Trojans (Teucer)....... and Israelites could be Denyen and some other sea peoples tribes mixed with local population...

Regulus
17-01-11, 04:04
.. Hazar state took Jewish religion in order to be able to trade both with Christians and muslims...



Agreed. The Khazars desired monotheism for that and other reason but did not want to be subordinate to either the Caliphate or the Byzantine Emperor. Judaism allowed the monotheism they wanted which also gave them more credibility as non-pagans but ensured that they could be independent.

Thomas15n
18-01-11, 21:23
I wanted to enter an answer but this application don't let me. So I can't write any more. Thank You.

DejaVu
18-01-11, 23:06
Just link to your statements, I want to know what the white DNA is, never heard about it before.

Summary:

1) The DNA make-up of today's Greeks is 99.5% white. The study cliams that today's Greek has 99.5% the same DNA make-up as as the white Greeks of ancient times. (no link)

2) Contrary to beliefs by many in Turkey and certain Slavic nations of ex-Yugoslavia, Greek DNA has not been influenced, nor altered, by the mixture of Slavic or Turkish DNA, even though Ottomans ruled a large part of Greece for 400 years. (no link)

3) Out of a sample of 925 modern-day Greek DNA, only 0.4% exhibited non-white DNA. (no link)

4) To a large extenet, Greeks of the ancient time "transfered" their DNA to other parts of Europe through their conquests. The study showed that, today, Greek DNA is most similar to: a) Italian DNA, b) French DNA, c) Spanish DNA, d) Turkish DNA. (no link)

5) The DNA of Italians in modern day southern Italy is the closest match to the DNA of their Greek neighbors." (no link)

iapetoc
30-04-11, 06:23
Dejavu you don't even know who Karamos was and what means,
if i ask you etymology of Perdikas or Ptolemy surely you will not know,

when you understand that Greeks are 1 from IE and 2 From Anatolian 3 From balkan population then speak again,

the existance of Dorians is written in many places, as also the existance of Dryopes,

How yes no it is not only Serbia but Greece also in Christmas time they Burn Oak trees,
Dryopes or Druids lived also in west Europe, not only in slavic

the most clear evidence of Dorians is the city of Doris Δωριδα,
remember that Athens was not an IE city, and Dorians were in hostility with Athens,

from anciety Greeks claim some lands, and some tribes,
officially Greeks never claim skopje as Makedonia
well I will not let you to create a quatrolingual state, or quatroethnic state just to satisfy a treaty of ottoman invaders, or to create a nation to satisfy roman invaders,
Skopje was capital of Dusan Serbia,
Strumnitsa was and is mainly Bulgarian people,
Tettovo is mainly Albania

where did you find the Mc-Donaldians?
in a treaty paper?
well that paper is bullshit when it comes to blood.
Nations are not created by Geographical terms, but with memory, blood, etc,

As long as 1 real makedonian exist not you not any power will force us to accept Turkish or Roman or Russian plans,

Try to say that Makedonia in 1900 was also inhabited by Serbs and Bulgarians, that is True than your bullshit,
even in your people numbers by ottomans no MC-Donaldian is mentioned
what happened, the Turks create a state with out ethnic MC-Donalds?

so even Turks did not know about MC-Donaldians at 1900,
only you know them,

it more possible for Makedonia to be Serb or Bulgarian, than MC-Donaldian


Besides I never connect Israelites with Greeks,
the only connection are the 2 minoan cities,
Avaris and Tel-Kabri

the Greeks from the Pelasgian Cadmeian branch are same people with Kittion (cyprus pre IE) ancient Illyrians, Phillistines, Trojans, Etruscans,
the IE branch of Greeks for me is under discuss,
probably R1a as found in Thracian tombs,
the case of pelasgians be connected with pre-semetic Ungarit is open,
as also with Hattic Hattianσ

the connection of Ιων with Ιαυαν is obvius but from different eyes,

1 Ιων exists and has lands in Greek Islands, another Genealogy,
2 Ιαυαν exists and has lands the islands among Tharseis (thracians or Thyrrsenians)

Both share same data, but different Genealogy??

lets see Titan Iapetus where worshiped.

Pausanias 8.17.25
Arcadia Peloponese
Argonautika 1.1120
Anchiale - Parthenia (Taursus)

Arcadia - ArcadoCypriot people,
Killikia (Taursus) North of Cyprus
either you see with Hebrew eye,
either with Greek Eye
Iων is the same Father,son of Iapetosor Hellenasbut dwell the islands among tharseis

archaiocapilos
16-07-11, 00:43
if first mention is really in 12th or 11th century BC that might mean they origin from sea peoples (same as Palestines probably origin from Pelast sea peoples who are likely Pelasgians)...Thus, tribes of Dan of Israel were just Denyen sea peoples who were just early Greeks participating in sea peoples conquest....

note that first historic mention of Sheba kingdom is related to 11th century as well and might be related to Sherdana sea people who left toponym Serboinian bog in Egypt...

so, sea peoples might have been set of different Balkan and Asia minor nations
e.g. Sherden being proto-Serbs (Serians), Lukka being Lycian, Pelast Pelasgian, Denyen being Greeks or tribes of Dan, Tjekker being Trojans (Teucer)....... and Israelites could be Denyen and some other sea peoples tribes mixed with local population...
I would agree with most of what you say allthough I'm mot sure about the Serbian origin of Sherdens. Most propably they were Anatolians too (from Sardeis of Asia Minor).
DejaVu on the other hand is really messed up...mixxing Bible with science is allways misleading.

Taranis
16-07-11, 01:02
I would agree with most of what you say allthough I'm mot sure about the Serbian origin of Sherdens. Most propably they were Anatolians too (from Sardeis of Asia Minor).
DejaVu on the other hand is really messed up...mixxing Bible with science is allways misleading.

There is absolutely no link between the Shardana/Sherden and the Serbians. We're talking about ~1700 years between the Bronze Age Collapse and the first mentioning of the Slavic peoples in Byzantine sources. It's like saying Americans came originally from Aremorica. It just makes no sense.

It's just wishful thinking by how-yes-no.

frexos
07-08-11, 17:05
First of all I would like to congratulate the forum and the sight for the quality and quantity of information provided. It is extremely difficult and "hazardous" to combine history with genetics in the age of nationalism; so my wish to you is "keep up the good work".
At this point I d like to post three questions:
1. Apart from the Pelasgians and the Dorians, is there any information on the Ionians?
2. Can the E1b1b haplogroup be related to the Pelasgians?
3. Is there a genetic similarity of modern Greeks to the people that inhabited the peninsula at 500BC?
Thanks in advance for your time

firetown
27-08-11, 11:43
I just wanted to say thank you so much for all of the excellent information. I have copied part of it into the network I run for rhesus negative people. Many of us believe that the rhesusnegative blood factor is a trait coming through from the neanderthals who did not extinct but rather mix with other homo species around 300,000-30,000 years ago. About 4% of the european dna matches with theirs. would love to get some additional information from you if you have it. here is how far I have gotten with myresearch> rhesusnegative.net/work/comparative-table-of-homo-species/


Were the Neanderthals more intelligent than we are?


Thanks again for all your work.


~ Michael Dammann
Rhesus Negative Network

William64
23-11-11, 00:39
J2a4b1
M92+ M67+ M304+ M172+ M99- M68- M62- M47- M390- M369- M368- M367- M365.2- M339- M327- M267- M205- M166- M163- M158- M137- M12- M102-


Our family goes back till 1375 in Holland (archive work and DNA tested)
We also know we most came here by the romain army. BUT from what part (country) meaning Old Greece / Italy or Spain?
I already find out that the haplo J2a4b1 is not there in Spain so it most be from Greece or Italy?!
Who can help me


William

Nikas
25-11-11, 06:29
Hello all,

I found this site via some casual online searching for information on ancient Greek DNA and must say that the knowledge and discourse seems to be very high indeed! I have learned some things I did not know so I am certainly glad I found my way here.

That being said, as I kept reading I could not believe I was running into pages and pages of copy-and-paste propaganda to do with the FYROM-Greece dispute, for two main reasons. One, is it truly allowed that someone can post reams and reams of literal diarrhea culled from any-and-all of the main FYROM-ian revisionist sites? I mean if that is the case, logic would follow that I could now start copying-and-pasting any-and-all Greek sites as well and just do the same here in an attempt to rebut?

Is this seriously tolerated? Isn't that called spamming or ******** in most places?

The second reason, is that there is actually appears to be quite a limited knowledge on the subject frankly. I don't claim by any means to be other than a genetic illiterate, so I won't attempt to debate something that I have a limited knowledge in, but it seems the same can be said for almost all the posters here on the subject on ancient Macedonian history. If you ignore the obviously juvenile ranting’s of the one FYROM-ian poster, who seems to not have a clue in regards to the subject or context of what he/she is posting, there are some serious misconceptions on here.

First, to clarify, I will play devil's advocate and say that by even the most extreme definition, namely that the Macedonians were not "Greeks", then even so, they certainly were, and are, exclusively part of the Greek cultural legacy. Even from this extreme vantage point, ancient history is replete with this evidence. Even in this narrowest of interpretations, Herodotus, who visited Macedon and reported, "as the Macedonians themselves say..." that they themselves declared themselves as Greeks, and Thucydides later on concurs. You have the thousands of thousands of inscriptions, gravestones, coins and such all in Greek. If they didn't speak it, they certainly endorsed it to such a degree that in all the centuries of the Macedonian kingdom not one non-Greek testament remains. Then you have the mere fact that Macedon eventually conquered the southern Greek states, and then went on to conquer much of the known-world of the time, and inaugurated the Hellenistic era, so named because of the spread of Greek language and culture through all the lands they touched, to such a degree that even thousands of miles away, and eventually separated by hostile powers, the Indo and Bactrian Greek kingdoms leave no archaeologist or historian in doubt what language and culture they belonged to. Again, a Macedonian superpower so neglectful and disdainful of their own language and culture as to not leave one trace? French may have been the lingua franca of much of the nobility and diplomats at one time, but don’t tell me the English, Russians, or German and other peoples, just threw away their language so completely as to leave not a whiff of it? The same applies as well with English today.

Of course, that is again only giving the benefit of the doubt to the skeptics. I could go on all day about this, but suffice to say that when Hesiod in the 8th century BC is already including the Makedones as part of the larger Hellenic family, or when the Persians are referring to them alongside their fellow Ionian “Greeks” and the other Greeks are sending envoys to them to participate in the pan-hellenic festivals and this while Macedon is a minor regional power, far below the notice of Athens, Thebes, or Sparta, it’s really hard to believe the Macedones weren’t Greeks.

We could even trace the Macedonians right through the Middle Ages and Byzantine era to clearly show, they really had nothing to do with the late coming Slavic (and surprisingly, many Turkic) invaders that primarily occupy ancient Paeonia and today’s FYROM.

This is what is so irritating to most Greeks regarding FYROM. I would go to the length that I would hope that the Greek government never accepts a name with Macedonia in it period as being the only honest stance, but have to live with the realpolitik that it will most likely have to be a geographic qualifier.

On a side-note, would anyone be able to say which is the most likely "original" Indo-European haplogroup?

Farquharson
25-11-11, 06:52
Hello all,

On a side-note, would anyone be able to say which is the most likely "original" Indo-European haplogroup?

There is no telling at the moment. However, if one looks at the Eurasian haplogroups R1a and R1b, there is a strong connection to the spread of Indo-European both to the west and east. The spread obviously included other groups beyond the R1 people, but the main thrust of the migrations appears to be strongly R1a/R1b.

Ancient DNA will provide more answers.

Nikas
25-11-11, 07:01
There is no telling at the moment. However, if one looks at the Eurasian haplogroups R1a and R1b, there is a strong connection to the spread of Indo-European both to the west and east. The spread obviously included other groups beyond the R1 people, but the main thrust of the migrations appears to be strongly R1a/R1b.

Ancient DNA will provide more answers.

Thanks! It will be fascinating to see what the next few years bring in terms of knowledge. It seems like most here definitely do not support the Renfrew Anatolian origin theory of the Indo-Europeans?

Farquharson
25-11-11, 07:51
The Kurgan Hypothesis is still the most widely accepted model, but that does not mean Renfrew's theory has no good points. Take the archaic nature of the Anatolian languages, for example. Plus, the Yamna trail mysteriously disappears beyond the western border of the Pontic-Caspian Steppe. But we see places like Ireland and Britain that speak Indo-European languages.

Did PIE develop among steppe people, or was it a joint development between an incoming population and the steppe folk?

Yeah, we definitely need more ancient DNA to make better inferences about anything. How many years ago was it that we all thought R1b was Paleolithic (although some still cling to it)? Just a few.

Adela
26-12-11, 10:30
FamilyTreeDNA.com website which was the testing company used to determine the nearest Haplogroup assigment based on the individual's haplotype results from the Y-DNA paternal line test. These verbatim Haplogroup Descriptions and/or excerpts are copyrighted by FamilyTreeDNA.com and all rights to these descriptions are claimed by FamilyTreeDNA.com. These descriptions have been printed here with the permission of FamilyTreeDNA.

Templar
31-12-11, 20:36
only 0.4% exhibited non-white DNA.
since when does Slavic and Turkish mean non-white?

kokki
25-01-12, 19:46
I wonder, when Greece will become a majority in this forum

Yaan
12-02-12, 21:08
As a Bulgarian I can try to say about the people that made my nations!
Thracian were E(V13), G2a,J2b with some minor R1b.
Bulgars were R1a,J2a with some minor L,Q and R1b.
Slavs were I2a,R1a with some minor E(V13) and G2a,J2b,because they assimilated a lot of Thracian!

Also R1a is connected to Indo European language just like J2a and G2a!Not R1b!!!!R1a,J2a and G2a is the thing that glue together Indo Europeans!

But most of all Maciamo really nice work!You put a lot of importance on R1b,it is the only thing I do not agree, but I guess this is your gene so that why! Really nice work! Compliments!

Yaan
12-02-12, 21:11
Why is it here spreading of lies and the evil Megali idea? It should be forbidden.
R u the only Bulgarian here? Now we are two

Yaan
12-02-12, 21:12
Slavic is 100 % white, Turks in Turkey are mostly white Muslims mixed with some Arabs, Indians and Africans, but not that much,so Slavic 100 % White ,Turkish like 85% white!

Yetos
12-02-12, 22:26
As a Bulgarian I can try to say about the people that made my nations!
Thracian were E(V13), G2a,J2b with some minor R1b.
Bulgars were R1a,J2a with some minor L,Q and R1b.
Slavs were I2a,R1a with some minor E(V13) and G2a,J2b,because they assimilated a lot of Thracian!

Also R1a is connected to Indo European language just like J2a and G2a!Not R1b!!!!R1a,J2a and G2a is the thing that glue together Indo Europeans!

But most of all Maciamo really nice work!You put a lot of importance on R1b,it is the only thing I do not agree, but I guess this is your gene so that why! Really nice work! Compliments!

Thracians E-V13?
since when?
is there any DNA search in ancient Tombs?

Yaan
13-02-12, 11:38
Since 4 Februari 87 BC he eh!
It is logic Bulgars were R1a,J2a people
Slavs were I2a,R1a people
Hellenics were J2b,R1b people
Ottoman Turks were R1b,J1, N people
E(V13) is typical for the first people in the Balkan Trachian(have nothing to do with Hellenic) and Ilyrian though Iliriayns are the fathers of the Slavs and were more I2a people.
I2a Ilyrians mixed with brave horse warriors called Scythians that we mostly R1a with some J2a and Slavs were born
Today Bulgarians are mixture of Bulgar,Slav,Trachian
Today Greeks are mixture of Helloenic,Trachian and Slavs
So we do have a lot in common!Cheers!

L.D.Brousse
15-03-12, 14:50
Here is a question I never see an answer to: If say R1b people all descend from the same group and DNA mutation rates are known why is variations in the R1b so great. seems like we all would have shared the same mutations over time? This goes for all haplotypes I'm just using mine as the example. Are there factors such as Mitochondrial dna, environment, diet ?

onslo
15-03-12, 19:17
I like your thinking!

It is looks like not many of forum users are interested in I1 haplogroup ? Especialy I1 M253+ , probably I need to blame a bottleneck for few male individuals left to have a conversation.
ONSLO.

sparkey
15-03-12, 20:09
Here is a question I never see an answer to: If say R1b people all descend from the same group and DNA mutation rates are known why is variations in the R1b so great.

It isn't, at least not among R1b-L11 (which includes all the common kinds in Western and Central Europe, including yours). Diversity among I2 is much greater, for example.

It may seem like there are a lot of R1b variants, because we know so much about them. But that's because R1b is the most well-researched haplogroup, not because it's especially diverse.


seems like we all would have shared the same mutations over time?

Well, all R1b shares the SNP mutations common to R1b. But obviously, since Y lines mutate linearly, uncommon SNPs and broad haplotypes are always unlikely to converge.


This goes for all haplotypes I'm just using mine as the example. Are there factors such as Mitochondrial dna, environment, diet ?

There are likely environmental factors that can increase mutation rates, but this isn't well understood, and so far, hasn't been shown to throw off STR dating estimates.

sparkey
15-03-12, 20:11
I like your thinking!

It is looks like not many of forum users are interested in I1 haplogroup ? Especialy I1 M253+ , probably I need to blame a bottleneck for few male individuals left to have a conversation.
ONSLO.

Even though I'm I2, I like to talk about I1! And I find that there are plenty of people who share an interest in it, because even though it has a much younger TMRCA than I2, it is now quite common, and has interesting correspondences to plenty of ancient migrations.

Twilight
29-06-12, 08:07
Wow, even before I first came here I've been very impressed by your scientific observations, I'm very curious on what you would ay about the Ancient Macedonians.

JFWR
04-07-12, 18:14
Maciamo,

Could you explain why you associate I (I1 and 2) mostly with Germanic peoples (as derived from a Paleolithic route)? I ask because it seems to me quite odd that the earliest people in Europe (I) would end up appearing so late on the scene as a historic people (the Germanics). Were the Neolithic farmer and early Indo-Europeans so good at keeping I in Fennoscandia (and possibly the Balkans and the British Isles) that they didn't reemerge as a cultural force until the Germanic epoch?

Also, what about the cultural continuities between Germanic and Celtic peoples in historical areas where the two lived either side by side, or were indistinguishable until the first millennium AD? For instance, it is ambiguous whether some of the people the Romans addressed in central European were either Celtic or Germanic, and the continuity in cultural connections between the two is often very strong in certain areas and in historical place names.

There is also the matter of Bithynia, Turkey which has a weird spike in I2A2 that may either be representative of Thracians (which are widely considered Celtic) or Varangarian Goths. Which do you think that population would likely represent?

JFWR
04-07-12, 18:19
Slavic is 100 % white, Turks in Turkey are mostly white Muslims mixed with some Arabs, Indians and Africans, but not that much,so Slavic 100 % White ,Turkish like 85% white!

Whereas the Turks clearly have a great deal of continuity with ancient Greek settlers (and the various other European peoples) who settled in Turkey in antiquity, I think it is hard to say that they are 85 percent white overall. The Turkic peoples in general are usually a mix of Caucasoid and Mongoloid racial types, and the Turkic language group widely departed from the Indo-European language group.

Also, there are pockets of areas in the Balkans that have suffered a tremendous amount of invasion by Asiatic peoples over the years, from the Huns, to the Mongols, to the Turks. Slavs are most assuredly white, but there are areas in Slavic predominated lands where non-whites are to be found.

Dianatomia
16-08-12, 18:00
It seems that every Ancient civilization which is worth mentioning had high amounts of E1b1(b) and/or J2. Ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Ancient Greece (Minoans, Pelasgians), Persians, Phoenicians, Etruscans.

onslo
21-09-12, 12:00
Maciamo,
You say:
"The new hybrid Germanic people retained the highest percentage of aboriginal haplogroup I."
Could you please elaborate about the ' aboriginals'.

Maciamo
21-09-12, 16:09
Maciamo,
You say:
"The new hybrid Germanic people retained the highest percentage of aboriginal haplogroup I."
Could you please elaborate about the ' aboriginals'.

These would be good places to start (unless you have a more specific question) : haplogroup I1 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml) and haplogroup I2 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml)

Finalise
26-09-12, 06:50
Honestly, you guys are making a way too big of a deal out of Haplogroups. After all, they just give genetic information for 1 out of hundreds/thousands possible ancestors. Although populations might have different haplogroups, they are almost indistinguishable. Or the other way around. For example, the guy who mentioned Albanians and Greeks. Although similar in haplogroups, central Albanians look a lot different than Greeks. They tend to have medium brown hair compared to black hair with greeks. Or take the example of Sardinians. They might have completely different haplogroups, but they're virtually indistinguishable from Italians with regards to phenotypes.

These maps are an extremely superficial way of understanding ancient cultures. Molecular anthropology has its place in history, but looking at history solely through the lens of y-chromosomal frequencies, is at best a pseudo-science. Genetics is an extremely complex field, and by saying this place has this much of this haplogroup, so they might look like this, or come from here is childish.

Its ok to infer in some different cases from these findings, but when you infer on the inference of an other inference, theres something called propagation of error that makes all these theories futile.

zanipolo
26-09-12, 07:18
Honestly, you guys are making a way too big of a deal out of Haplogroups. After all, they just give genetic information for 1 out of hundreds/thousands possible ancestors. Although populations might have different haplogroups, they are almost indistinguishable. Or the other way around. For example, the guy who mentioned Albanians and Greeks. Although similar in haplogroups, central Albanians look a lot different than Greeks. They tend to have medium brown hair compared to black hair with greeks. Or take the example of Sardinians. They might have completely different haplogroups, but they're virtually indistinguishable from Italians with regards to phenotypes.

These maps are an extremely superficial way of understanding ancient cultures. Molecular anthropology has its place in history, but looking at history solely through the lens of y-chromosomal frequencies, is at best a pseudo-science. Genetics is an extremely complex field, and by saying this place has this much of this haplogroup, so they might look like this, or come from here is childish.

Its ok to infer in some different cases from these findings, but when you infer on the inference of an other inference, theres something called propagation of error that makes all these theories futile.

While I agree with you on some ponits, genetics are far more accurate way than hair or eye colour distinguishing anything ( this is completly useless science in determing race) or linguistic knowledge ( another silly assumption ) or the bardic fairytales where bards mixed up multitudes of stories ..I mean, don't you find it amusing and silly that just because some people in areas speak slavic , then they are slavic :laughing::confused2:...its utterly stuipid, , its the same as If i say that the people that speak english regardless of where they live must be english culture.

Finalise
27-09-12, 04:45
While I agree with you on some ponits, genetics are far more accurate way than hair or eye colour distinguishing anything ( this is completly useless science in determing race) or linguistic knowledge ( another silly assumption ) or the bardic fairytales where bards mixed up multitudes of stories ..I mean, don't you find it amusing and silly that just because some people in areas speak slavic , then they are slavic :laughing::confused2:...its utterly stuipid, , its the same as If i say that the people that speak english regardless of where they live must be english culture.

I completely agree. For example, Hungarians are the largest group of Uralic speakers, but yet somehow they only have 1% of the "uralic" haplogroup N. Or like how eastern Europe has R1a, so it MUST be a slavic gene, because there's slavic countries in eastern europe.

Or even grouping people by language, like Germanic people or Italic people. What the hell do Romanians have to do with the Portuguese? or Austrians with Norwegians? or Nigerians with Frenchmen? Yes, they speak related languages but they're not closely genetically affiliated. Stop tying languages to Haplogroups.

Again, genetic studies have their place, but inference based solely on haplogroups is ridicoulous. Cameroonians, Indians and Welshmen all have R1b so they must closely related!!

kamani
27-11-12, 08:17
Just a possible correction to the original post:
The poet Xenophanes (around 400 BC) describes the Thracians as blue-eyed and red haired.So they must
have been very R1b, since red hair is recessive and needs both parents to have the red-gene, in order to show.
This possibly makes them related to the nearby celts and illyrians, who possibly shared
R1b-M269.

zanipolo
27-11-12, 08:38
Just a possible correction to the original post:
The poet Xenophanes (around 400 BC) describes the Thracians as blue-eyed and red haired.So they must
have been very R1b, since red hair is recessive and needs both parents to have the red-gene, in order to show.
This possibly makes them related to the nearby celts and illyrians, who possibly shared
R1b-M269.

i read green eyed and red haired and obtained the red hair by buying females from the levant who had red hair.

the thracians where very much into women for sale

they where R1a in majority especially the northern ones.

kamani
27-11-12, 09:40
i read green eyed and red haired and obtained the red hair by buying females from the levant who had red hair.

the thracians where very much into women for sale

they where R1a in majority especially the northern ones.

an R1a population with red hair sounds a bit far fetched. Scotland has the highest proportion of redheads; and still only 13% of the population has red hair. And Scotland is 77% R1b.

Yetos
27-11-12, 12:57
Just a possible correction to the original post:
The poet Xenophanes (around 400 BC) describes the Thracians as blue-eyed and red haired.So they must
have been very R1b, since red hair is recessive and needs both parents to have the red-gene, in order to show.
This possibly makes them related to the nearby celts and illyrians, who possibly shared
R1b-M269.

That population, or remnants of it exist even today in same area isolated as it can be by them but due to religion mixed with Non Thracian population recently, I have wrote about them in Threads about Thracians, they share typical genetical all of them about. but seems to have Green eyes as majority, and second the blue and brown. I have not a source, but they seem to be R1a population, with Arabian mix.
the % of some East mediterenean heritage is strong among them, meaning that either happened what Zanipolo tell us about Levant women, either they came from south parts of Anatolia, I wonder if the had same mother land the one Tocharians had,
and to be clear we speak about one the many Thracian tribes, not Paiones, Tribaldi and Odrysse, the ones we mainly think when we speak about Thracians,

flupke
27-11-12, 18:04
Just a possible correction to the original post:
The poet Xenophanes (around 400 BC) describes the Thracians as blue-eyed and red haired.So they must
have been very R1b, since red hair is recessive and needs both parents to have the red-gene, in order to show.
This possibly makes them related to the nearby celts and illyrians, who possibly shared
R1b-M269.

I would have thought "homogeneous R1b" people (if it ever existed) to be more Brownish (eyes and hairs); Fairness being more pre-indoeuropean. Just a guess based on actual geographical overlap between phenotypes and haplotypes.

Templar
27-11-12, 21:28
I would have thought "homogeneous R1b" people (if it ever existed) to be more Brownish (eyes and hairs); Fairness being more pre-indoeuropean. Just a guess based on actual geographical overlap between phenotypes and haplotypes.

The original Europeans most likely didn't develop fairness, since fairness seems to be prominent wherever the Indo-Europeans went.

Yetos
28-11-12, 00:14
The original Europeans most likely didn't develop fairness, since fairness seems to be prominent wherever the Indo-Europeans went.

I think Blondism has to do with Baltics, a blond woman was considered as an exotic fruit,

The mania with Baltic R1a can be healed by discovering R1a pop of India, what fairness,
simply in Europe, after the Danube they went North so they mixed with Blond female population of Baltic,
even the red hair is a strange case cause seems to connected with Armenia and Romania than steppe people,

consider that from ancient times to today blond women are considered as an exotic fruit,

Some blond-lovers even make Alexander blond.

Templar
28-11-12, 00:57
The mania with Baltic R1a can be healed by discovering R1a pop of India, what fairness,
simply in Europe

There are blondes in all places settled by Indo-Europeans, its just that they left the largest genetic print in sparsely populated places, such as Europe. India, Persia, and Anatolia were all ancient agricultural center which had vast populations. A few nomads couldn't have changed their average phenotype significantly, but you can still find some light featured individuals in those places, and especially if they are in the higher castes.

kamani
28-11-12, 02:11
Blonde hair seemed to have originated around 11000 BC near the end of the last age, somewhere in europe around Lithuania. The gene spread through sexual selection supposedly, because men prefered blondes. Around 3000 BC it was the predominant color in northern europe. My opinion is that it spread really fast around 3500-3000 BC with the coming of the bronze age and metal weapons which intensify wars and population mixing.

Templar
28-11-12, 02:33
Blonde hair seemed to have originated around 11000 BC near the end of the last age, somewhere in europe around Lithuania. The gene spread through sexual selection supposedly, because men prefered blondes. Around 3000 BC it was the predominant color in northern europe. My opinion is that it spread really fast around 3500-3000 BC with the coming of the bronze age and metal weapons which intensify wars and population mixing.

That was the old theory, but the new ones suggest that it arose in the Eurasian steppe. Either Ukraine/South-Western Russia or Central Asia.

LeBrok
28-11-12, 03:35
Blonde hair seemed to have originated around 11000 BC near the end of the last age, somewhere in europe around Lithuania.
If it happened 11k BC or later, then it is right. If blond hair happened during ice age then it had to be farther south around the ice belt, from France to Caspian sea. I do believe it was adaptation to climatic conditions, though I think that blond hair was a side effect of some genes associated with white skin and light eyes. Blond hair might have helped hunters to blend into terrain in winter, but not sure if it's a pig effect, otherwise all northern populations would have been blond already.
So maybe Baltic climate is very specific. Sun is rather low most of the year and half days are cloudy and gloomy. They needed all the help they could get to produce vitamin D3. The same conditions might have existed around ice belt from France to Caspian sea during Ice Age. Farther in steppes in Asia climate is and was rather dryer and sunnier all year round. Therefore I don't think it happened in Central Asia. I think the proof of it is Mongol population. They received genes for blondism long time ago, but it didn't spread fast like around Baltic Sea. There are blond Mongols but few and between, and I'm not talking about albino mutation. Looks like the blond advantage is not there.

ElHorsto
28-11-12, 19:11
If it happened 11k BC or later, then it is right. If blond hair happened during ice age then it had to be farther south around the ice belt, from France to Caspian sea.


But north Siberia and north-central Russia was also ice free during LGM.



I do believe it was adaptation to climatic conditions, though I think that blond hair was a side effect of some genes associated with white skin and light eyes. Blond hair might have helped hunters to blend into terrain in winter, but not sure if it's a pig effect, otherwise all northern populations would have been blond already.
So maybe Baltic climate is very specific. Sun is rather low most of the year and half days are cloudy and gloomy. They needed all the help they could get to produce vitamin D3. The same conditions might have existed around ice belt from France to Caspian sea during Ice Age. Farther in steppes in Asia climate is and was rather dryer and sunnier all year round. Therefore I don't think it happened in Central Asia. I think the proof of it is Mongol population. They received genes for blondism long time ago, but it didn't spread fast like around Baltic Sea. There are blond Mongols but few and between, and I'm not talking about albino mutation. Looks like the blond advantage is not there.

But true blondes can tan quite well compared to red haired and even some brunettes. I believe north Siberia an central Russia during LGM were less cloudy than regions closer to the ocean, but perhaps snowyer. In this case, bright hair and a moderate ability to tan during summer could represent an adaptation to such regions with much snow and varying sunshine (sunny summers).

LeBrok
28-11-12, 19:55
But north Siberia and north-central Russia was also ice free during LGM.



But true blondes can tan quite well compared to red haired and even some brunettes. I believe north Siberia an central Russia during LGM were less cloudy than regions closer to the ocean, but perhaps snowyer. In this case, bright hair and a moderate ability to tan during summer could represent an adaptation to such regions with much snow and varying sunshine (sunny summers).

I don't know exactly why blond is centered around Baltic Sea, but it is. It also has to be a reason why blond genes didn't spread around the globe in moderate to sub Arctic zone, if it is beneficial trait for these conditions. It tried for sure, because at least 4k years ago it reached China, as per Tarim Bay mummies. Knowing that blond genes are the recessive ones, we understand that they can't survive for too long (competing with black hair) unless they bring a strong survival advantage to the equation. Knowing these facts, it can point us to the clues and understanding why this blond mutation gave our ancestors survival advantage around Baltic sea, in spite of being a recessive trait from it's beginning.

Templar
28-11-12, 19:59
I don't know exactly why blond is centered around Baltic Sea, but it is. It also has to be a reason why blond genes didn't spread around the globe in moderate to sub Arctic zone, if it is beneficial trait for these conditions. It tried for sure, because at least 4k years ago it reached China, as per Tarim Bay mummies. Knowing that blond genes are the recessive ones, we understand that they can't survive for too long (competing with black hair) unless they bring a strong survival advantage to the equation. Knowing these facts, it can point us to the clues and understanding why this blond mutation gave our ancestors survival advantage around Baltic sea, in spite of being a recessive trait from it's beginning.

It could simply be because the Baltic was one of the most underpopulated areas of Europe, and therefore the influence of the recessive Indo-European light features were the most prominent there. The Baltic is also fairly flat. Compare that to Southern Europe which was already heavily settled by that time. Or compare it to places with rough terrain such as the Alps. Dark hair remained in both of those places dominant.

LeBrok
29-11-12, 09:13
Surally, they must have moved into underpopulated Baltic area right after Ice Age. The question still stands, why these recessive blond genes took hold and survived till today, as majority, only in this area?
Whole North around the globe was underpopulated 10,000 years ago, white hair should have had advantage in all these places. Till now most of North is dominated by black hair and eyes.

One of the most interesting aspects of blond dominance in Europe north is how it really started. Was the change gradual, from Black to brown to red to blond? Maybe from brown to blond with blue eyes in one individual? If he was a prince he could have given the gene to hundreds of kids... Ney, most likely it was gradual accumulation of fairer skin, hair, eye genes till full blond.
However it happened, it happened by natural selection. All individuals with whitest skin survived in greater numbers than darker siblings. And after many generations they were mostly blond.
For this to happen it is important to live in right environment. So far all clues point into specific climatic conditions around Baltic Sea area. From top of my head I would say it is mostly cloudy, foggy area, it was mostly forested back then, and forest adds extra cover from the sun. It is in huge contrast with big open sunny steppes of Asia.

Barantes
24-03-13, 19:16
I'm R-L21 and my family is of Portuguese descent, do you know how this could be possible?

dimp
03-04-13, 01:24
Dear Maciamo,

Thank you for the very instructive post. I have question. How do you explain the origin of Bulgarians /Thracians. There are some more articles on the matter (I can not yet post them since I don;t have 10 posts).

There is a theory stating that the Thracians (Pelasgans, Troyans etc) are the original population of the Balkans and their migrations are caused by the Black Sea flood (about 6500 BC).

dimp
03-04-13, 01:25
Here is some copy paste:
The approximate distribution of Y-DNA haplogroups among the Bulgarian people runs as follows:
16% E1b1b
1% G2a
3% I1
20% I2a (very common among South Slavic peoples)
1% I2b
20% J2
1% Q
18% R1a
18% R1b
1% T
Here are mtDNA haplogroups found among Bulgarians:
38% H (of which 10% are in the subclades H1 and H3 combined)
10% J
6.5% T
20% U (of which 10% are in U3, 6.5% in U4, and 3.5% in U5)
13% K
6% X2
6.5% other haplogroups

Yaan
04-04-13, 14:22
Here is some copy paste:
The approximate distribution of Y-DNA haplogroups among the Bulgarian people runs as follows:
16% E1b1b
1% G2a
3% I1
20% I2a (very common among South Slavic peoples)
1% I2b
20% J2
1% Q
18% R1a
18% R1b
1% T
Here are mtDNA haplogroups found among Bulgarians:
38% H (of which 10% are in the subclades H1 and H3 combined)
10% J
6.5% T
20% U (of which 10% are in U3, 6.5% in U4, and 3.5% in U5)
13% K
6% X2
6.5% other haplogroups
Ur data is really obsolete, there is now a big research based on 808 unrelated Bulgarians from all over the country- http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056779
http://i.imgur.com/8JvdPDa.png
Eupedia is also updated :) http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
22% E1b1b
5% G2a
4.5% I1
20% I2a (very common among South Slavic peoples)
1.5% I2b
10% J2
0.5% Q
18% R1a
10% R1b
1.5% T
sounds more like it :)

dimp
06-04-13, 01:19
You are correct but I could not post the link.
But could you address mu question?

Yaan
06-04-13, 15:57
You are correct but I could not post the link.
But could you address mu question?

Well I guess Bulgarians have Thrachian, Slavic and some Bulgar,Celtic and Goth blood.
Thrachians for me were E-V13,J2b2 and R1b-L23 with some E-M123,T and R1a
Slavs were R1a and I2a with some T,J2b1 and E-V13
Bulgars were R1a and J2a4h and J2b2 with some G2a,Q and N

gyms
14-04-13, 16:27
Bulgars were R1a and I2a and...

Yaan
14-04-13, 17:43
Bulgars were R1a and I2a and...
I think ancient Bulgars were R1a,J2

how yes no 3
14-04-13, 20:15
Ur data is really obsolete, there is now a big research based on 808 unrelated Bulgarians from all over the country- http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056779


northern part of Sophia province, area around Sofia city, is the home of Serdi, Celtic tribe that got thracanized

but the area has very little Celtic R1b
Sophia province has 2.7% U152 and no other S116
and the Sofia city (earlier Serdica) has 1.7% of U152 and 3.4% of other S116

however it has, especially Sofia city area, elevated I2a-din and lowered E-V13 compared to nation average......of course part of this I2a-din may be due to modern Serbs, that are just across the border...but just across the border were also E-V13 Dardanians

in any case this seems to support my theory that some of the Balkan Celts such as Serdi and Scordisci were probably not really R1b celtic but probably more I2a-din celtic... i believe that i2a-din was Celtic prior to becomming Slavic and in that respect Serdi may be the origin of modern Serbs....


idea is that like free Dacians, also free Thracians went to north, in accordance with Russian primary chronicle that speaks of Danubian Slavs (and among them explicitly mentions Serbs and Croats) who moved to Vistula region due to spread of Roman empire.....


Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs. O

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle
http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf


Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes.
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html




since Dacians and Thracians were of same Venethi race (R1a people in my opinion with exception of I2a-din Serdi and Carpi), I think they made new tribal name "free Venethi" or Slobodni Venethi
which was abbreviated with Slo-Veneti... the core of this tribe was surrounded with its border tribes Venedi and Anti (both names derived from words having meaning turn, end, border...first one in PIE, second one in iranian)


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg/483px-Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28516-Serbs-and-Croats-origin-from-Germanic-Scirii-and-Hirri


when thinking of Thracians in context of haplogroups above keep in mind that after Dacia and Thrace fall under Roman empire and some people left to north in order to stay free, the areas were also settled with people from other parts of Roman empire and influence areas of Greek tribes from south Thrace did enlarge...

gyms
14-04-13, 21:08
According to the new Bulgarian study the highest frequency of I2a-Din is in north- eastern country.