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TheCaptain
23-02-09, 00:57
I just came across this page, which explains many well-known stereotypes about European countries:

dailycandor.com/what-europeans-think-of-each-other/

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This is a basic backgrounder for Americans, primarily, who might think Europeans do nothing all day but ***** about Americans. Don’t get me wrong―they do love bitching about Americans. But they also like bitching about each other, as well. Bordering countries, especially, have complex caricatures of each other, even when an outsider might think they’re more or less the same. The following is based on my numerous interactions with Europeans, having lived there for 4 years. Here’s a run down:

The French ― Disliked by some Spanish (particularly the Catalonians), for being arrogant. One woman from Barcelona told me, “Come on¦who really likes the French? Nobody!” The Swiss don’t like the fact that they have contempt for authority and are lazy. The Brits, of course, have the most mixed feelings about the French, though. One half the country hates them, the other half loves them. Those that hate the French tend to like the Americans, and vice versa. In the UK, they’re considered stinky, rude (they never line/queue up like decent people), and a bit yellow, based on their tendency to not fend off invaders like the Nazis.The French, in turn, dislike the British, look down on Belgians for being stupid, and don’t have much to say, in my experience, about Spaniards or Germans (oddly).

The Italians ― Most of the stereotypes are positive, but mostly because of the food. Northern Europeans consider them lazy and flaky, and maybe incapable of managing anything right (mostly because of the 50+ governments they’ve had since WW2). One Dutch professor I had dismissed another Italian one, saying, “All the Italians care about are pasta and mamma.”Italians, in turn, don’t have strong feelings about other Europeans, but within Italy, the north-south divide is pretty strong. Northern Italians continuously complain that Southerners are lazy and unproductive, while Southerners complain that Northerners are devoid of culture or joie de vivre.

The Germans ― Germans are considered industrious but uptight and humorless, by just about all the other Europeans. They know WW2 is a sore spot for them, so other Europeans will often mercilessly tease them about it. As much as Germany is considered an economic powerhouse, the vast majority of Europeans don’t really want to learn German or study there (or send their kids there to study). The food is considered uninspired, too, and only Berlin has some cachet among younger Europeans for its vibrant underground club scene. The most anti-German sentiments are among the Dutch and Danish, who just hate them from invading their countries too often. When German ask for directions in Holland, they’re usually given directions to the shortest way out of the country, or told “Give us back our bikes!”, a reference to the fact that Germans confiscated Dutch bicycles during WW2.Danes hate it when you pronounce their capital as “ko-pen-HAH-gen”, because this is the German pronunciation. Either pronounce it the English way (with “HAY” instead), or the Danish way, which is literally impossible to put down here.Germans tend to like their Western neighbors far more than they are liked by them, but they look down on their Eastern neighbors, particularly Poles. They, oddly, have some mixed respect for the Czechs, who have resisted German aggression.

The Scandinavians ― Widely respected by most other Europeans, because of their high standard of living …and blond hair and blue eyes. However, within Scandinavia there are some persistent stereotypes. The Norwegians, Danes and Finns all think the Swedes are stupid and uptight. Norwegians are considered racist. Danes are considered more blunt than the others, maybe a bit more cranky, and the Finns are oddly introverted, even by Scandinavian standards. Except for the Danes really disliking Germans, and Finns really disliking Russians, they don’t really have anything against other Europeans.

The Belgians ― Considered idiots by both the Dutch and the French. Belgians, in turn, consider the Dutch to be a bunch of cranky assholes, and French stuck-up.

The Dutch ― The Dutch, like the Scandinavians, have an enviable economy and social order that’s admired by southern European countries. However, they do have a reputation of being self-righteous “know-it-alls” and very similar to their German cousins in terms of their rigidity. But they do not like any comparisons to Germans, and if you remind them that the Dutch national anthem makes a reference to the Dutch being “van Duitse bloed” (from German blood), you might quickly get the silent treatment. The Dutch are also disliked for being the biggest misers in Europe, and because of this they incur the wrath of the tourist industry wherever they travel. The Dutch have been known to stock up on water before they take their campers down to the south of France.The Dutch, in turn, kind of look down on just about everyone. Yes, there’s a bit of a reason for the “know-it-all” smart-ass reputation they have.

The Swiss ― Considered extremely rigid, even by the Germans. Blunt to the point of being rude, the Swiss probably have the least likely reputation for being characterized as “friendly” or “warm”. Note that there is a big cultural divide between French-speaking Swiss, and the German-speaking Swiss. The former are almost exactly like the French, except having a blander cuisine and more respect for authority, the latter being more like the Germans except even more stiff, rigid and cranky. However, everyone knows Switzerland “works” so the fact that foreigners comprise 20% of the population (mostly from EU member states) should make this clear.Note that the German-speaking Swiss also speak their own variant of German, which sounds very strange if you’ve only been exposed to standard “hoch-Deutsch”.
The Spaniards ― Honestly, very little antagonism against the Spanish or by the Spanish. No one really seems to dislike them, and they don’t seem to really dislike anyone else. (Yes, some Spaniards near the border to France don’t like the French very much) Not entirely sure why. However, God forbid you speak Spanish with a Latin American accent ― there is still a lot of snobbery among Spaniards towards Latin Americans. Spaniards consider themselves white and European, and would be deeply insulted if you suggested they were Latin American of any kind.

The Greeks ― Only nominally considered European by other Europeans, but the Greeks fiercely identify as European. Naturally, this is a huge irritant to Greeks.

The Poles ― Not much seems to register about Poland and the Poles except that they’re quiet. They are a relatively big country (40 million people) so the supposed scare of being overrun by Eastern Europeans when a bunch of Eastern European countries joined the EU in 2005 focused in on the Poles. The Germans really don’t like Poles, and among Germany’s 9 neighbors, are disliked the most. Poland is considered a country of car thieves by the Germans. Really, the relationship between Germany and Poland is similar to that of the United States and Mexico, and often for many of the same reasons (differences in income, history of war, different languages, etc.).Poles really shore up their hatred for their eastern & southern neighbors, primarily Russia and Ukraine, although they don’t like Czechs, Slovaks or Lithuanians either. Oddly, they don’t really mind the Germans, and probably still fear them a bit ― you never, ever hear jokes about Germans in Poland.

The Czechs ― Considered a relatively bright spot of Eastern Europe by Western Europeans, but I think primarily because Prague is such a gorgeous city and a popular tourist destination. Czechs are a bit like Germans, though ― a bit rude, blunt, and cold. Poles don’t have much good to say about them.
The Austrians ― Considered a mix of the best & worst aspects of Germany and the Balkans, Austrians are considered laid-back but very nationalistic and racist. They’re said to be the birthplace of Hitler, but never came around to being fully apologetic about the Holocaust (unlike Germany). Neutral feelings from most ofWestern Europe, negative feelings from Germans (who consider them backwards, and not always the representing the best image of German-speaking people) and admired by Eastern Europeans (a throwback to the Hapsburgs).

The British - About half of the British would be really angry at being called European, so that should provide an apt starting point. The main beef with the Brits is that they’re considered the lapdog of the U.S., and are anti-European because the U.S. tells them to be so. They are considered polite, but maybe a bit two-faced (hence “Janus Britain”) and snobby. The Scots and Welsh are tolerated and liked, inasmuch as that no one really knows too much about them outside the UK, but the English are those that bear the brunt of negative sentiments among other Europeans. After all, London is in England.
The English also have a poor reputation in tourist traps, such as Amsterdam and Ibiza, for being loud-mouthed, obnoxious drunks.
The English, in turn, really seem to hate everyone. This is because it’s pretty hard to find an Englishman that has even, at best, neutral opinions about other Europeans (or Americans, or other nationalities). Europe is full of English expats, and the longer they live abroad, the more they seem to hate their host country. And yet they never seem to want to move home.

The Irish ― A very small country, despite its exaggerated importance in Americans’ minds (just over 3 million) but considered polite and humble. They nominally dislike the English, but I have yet to meet an Irishman who really loathes the English. The sentiments towards the Irish and by the Irish seem to be positive, overall.

I personally don’t know much about how the Portuguese, Hungarians, Romanians, Bulgarians, and others are perceived, or how they perceive others, but if you have something to add, please do so in the comments below.

I’ll leave you with this poster I saw in an Italian office years ago, that helps sum it up in some ways:

In Heaven…
the mechanics are German
the chefs are French
the police are British
the lovers are Italian
and everything is organized by the Swiss.

In Hell…
the mechanics are French
the police are German
the chefs are British
the lovers are Swiss
and everything is organized by the Italians.

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Do you think there is a grain of truth in these stereotypical views? Personally, I think he is quite right about many things!

Starship
23-02-09, 15:23
Excellent a very enjoyable read.

Maciamo
23-02-09, 16:05
Always fun to read about these kinds of stereotypes. There is usually a basis of truth, although it is exaggerated. The best book I have read about differences between Europeans and what they think of each others is We Europeans (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/9074440118?ie=UTF8&tag=maciamojapan-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=9074440118), by Richard Hill.

A few comments.


The Italians ― Most of the stereotypes are positive, but mostly because of the food. Northern Europeans consider them lazy and flaky, and maybe incapable of managing anything right (mostly because of the 50+ governments they’ve had since WW2).

There is a huge divide between northern and southern Italy that too many Europeans (or even more non-Europeans) are unaware of. Northern Italy is as much an economic powerhouse as Germany (much more than East Germany, that's for sure). The GDP per capita if most of the North is among the highest in Europe (have a look at this map (http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/GISCO/mapjobs2007/mp200710-1-e.pdf) in PDF). In fact, if northern Italy (as far south as Emilia-Romagna) was an independent country, it would be the richest in Europe after Luxembourg.


The Belgians ― Considered idiots by both the Dutch and the French. Belgians, in turn, consider the Dutch to be a bunch of cranky assholes, and French stuck-up.

Belgians often think of the French as idiots too, both for their ignorance and behaviour. It's amazing the number of French people who don't know that Belgium is not a monolingual French-speaking country. That's basically why they think that all Belgians speak French with a funny accent and make many mistakes, and are therefore stupid. But most of the Belgians they hear on TV (politicians probably) are in fact Flemish speakers trying to speak French for the French media. Just ask a French what is the "Belgian accent" for them and you will know that it's true.


The most anti-German sentiments are among the Dutch and Danish, who just hate them from invading their countries too often. When German ask for directions in Holland, they’re usually given directions to the shortest way out of the country, or told “Give us back our bikes!”, a reference to the fact that Germans confiscated Dutch bicycles during WW2.

Well, I think that it tells us more about the Dutch than about the Germans. Whining about their bikes 60 years ago, when their country didn't even try to resist German invasion (the Nazi were practically "welcomed" to both the Netherlands and Denmark). Neither Denmark nor the Netherlands suffered much from the German occupation, as they were considered German provinces, not enemies. Germany itself, and the countries it was actively at war with, suffered much more from WWII in terms of casualties and destruction. Frankly, it is petty minded of either the Dutch or Danes to resent the Germans for WWII. They were the luckiest in all Europe. Even other countries have mostly turned the page now. That was 3 generations ago, let's not linger on it !


The Spaniards ― Honestly, very little antagonism against the Spanish or by the Spanish. No one really seems to dislike them, and they don’t seem to really dislike anyone else.

That isn't true. Many Belgians have mixed or negative feelings towards the Spaniards. I am not sure if this is due to the 200 years of Spanish rule in Belgium during the Inquisition , or the image of the blood-thirsty conquistador reconverted in matador. Belgian TV also likes to remind people that Spain uses huge amounts of dangerous chemicals on its fruit and vegetable farms, which are sold in all Europe. Spaniards are seen by Belgians either as warm and friendly, or as haughty and harsh. It really depends who you meet, I guess.


Poles really shore up their hatred for their eastern & southern neighbors, primarily Russia and Ukraine, although they don’t like Czechs, Slovaks or Lithuanians either.

Well, that's ironic because Ukraine and Russia are as close to Poland genetically as it gets. A North and South German are certainly more different than a Pole and a Ukrainian. It could even be argued that speaking in local dialects a Saxon has less chance of understanding a Bavarian than a Pole and a Ukrainian speaking their own language to each others.


The English, in turn, really seem to hate everyone. This is because it’s pretty hard to find an Englishman that has even, at best, neutral opinions about other Europeans (or Americans, or other nationalities). Europe is full of English expats, and the longer they live abroad, the more they seem to hate their host country. And yet they never seem to want to move home.

This was just beautifully put. :D Fortunately it is only half true.

Mycernius
25-02-09, 20:59
Sterotypes I have found:
I'll start with my own first, The English
Stuck up. Look down on all other Europeans as they are all foreign and not English or British. Consider themselves as completely seperate from Europe, especially France. Bad food, bad teeth and drink nothing but tea. Abroad are loud, obnoxious and just why can't all these foreigners speak english?

The Scots
Misers. Miserable and have never forgiven the English for the defeats they have inflicted on them in most of the battles. Strong willed and the Highland scots hate the lowland scots and visa versa. Alawys wear kilts and eat haggis.

The Irish
Not very bright. Jolly and drunk. Like fighting. All of Ireland is nothing but small villages like Ballykissangel. Land of potatoes and whiskey

The French
Arrogant. Hate anyone who isn't french, especially the english. Hate anyone who doesn't speak french, it is, after all, a langauge of culture. Lovers and have good food, as long as you like garlic. All men in France smoke bad cigarettes, wear striped t-shirts and ride old bicycles with oinions around ther necks. Hate Parisians, but then again the Parisians hate the rest of France. Eat frogs legs and drink huge amounts of wine. Have no idea what soap is.

The Italians
Better known than the french for surrendering at the slightest sound of a gun. Hot headed lovers and knife wielding maniacs all out for vengence if you insult them, their family, cousins, towns, neighbours goat. Drive like lunatics in old Fiat 500s. Also known for being stylish in the cities, but the people in villages all dress like they have dropped out of the 19th century. eat nothing put pasta and tomatoes.

The Spanish
Laid back and always asleep during the afternoon. Never rush at anything. Like nothing better than finding an innocent animal and finding a novel way of killing it do not know what a car is really for and which side of the road to drive on.

The Swiss
Chocolate, cuckoo clocks and most of the world money. Most boring country in Europe.

The Germans
Do not know what a sense of humour is, even the langauge sounds grumpy and unfunny. A habit of starting landwars in Europe. Like order and will not deviate from instructions. Tidy, neat, obsessive, in other words a country of anal retentives. Make good efficient cars with no soul. have no speed limit on the autobahns. Food is something to be desired consisting of nothing but sausages and pickled cabbage. Like beer, huge quanties of it.

The Dutch
Most relaxed country in Europe as they are all stoned. Known for sticking fingers in holes in dykes.

:D:D:D

Miss Marple's nephew
27-02-09, 13:28
This is a basic backgrounder for Americans, primarily, who might think Europeans do nothing all day but ***** about Americans. Don稚 get me wrong―they do love bitching about Americans.
One of my most favourite pass times! :smash:

Starship
27-02-09, 17:55
Stereotypes can be funny I think they only becoming insulting when a country is so blasé that no stereotypes come to mind to describe them.

Take the Czech artist David Cerny and his Entropia, I searched for ages trying to find his interpretation of Ireland and for a while I thought he must have lumped us in with Britain and left us out altogether – how insulting.

Then I eventually found his offering a brown bog with Uilleann pipes sticking out. Now no one does self debasement like the Irish, it's a national past time but what the hell was that?

Did he run out of time? Did he run over budget or could he not even be bothered to Goggle Ireland for a bit of material, for Gods sake we said no to Lisbon and we get some airy fairy nonsense that pipes out music once in a while from this chicken farming hack, seriously I was insulted that he didn't bother his arse to try and insult us properly.

Ok so perhaps he never was a chicken farmer, well that's how much effort I'll be putting into researching him.

ukbulldog
01-03-09, 00:47
i found it great to read and peoples perceptions matched perfectly. But if you ask people from inside there own country they would disagree as of expected. Like i disagree about the british being snobbish, although i see were other countries are coming from i beleive its a small minority that are in the public eye of other countries that are snobbish. From my view Britain is a pie eating, beer drinking, proud country but i suppose if i called a American stupid which i do beleive Americans are less intelligent than europeans in general they would have a lot to say about that as i have about Britains being snobbish. (I am not moaning or complaining just expressing my views on England and the UK).

Miss Marple's nephew
01-03-09, 13:10
....... I thought he must have lumped us in with Britain and left us out altogether ・how insulting.
A rather common oversight but not nearly the worst that it gets: Westerners will give you a detailed list of countries of the world but when it comes to our intercontinental neighbours to the south - well! "That guy's been to Germany, France, Italy, Russia, Turkey, India, Japan, and Africa!" :frown:

ukbulldog
01-03-09, 15:44
Stereotypes can be funny I think they only becoming insulting when a country is so blasé that no stereotypes come to mind to describe them.

Take the Czech artist David Cerny and his Entropia, I searched for ages trying to find his interpretation of Ireland and for a while I thought he must have lumped us in with Britain and left us out altogether – how insulting.

Then I eventually found his offering a brown bog with Uilleann pipes sticking out. Now no one does self debasement like the Irish, it’s a national past time but what the hell was that?

Did he run out of time? Did he run over budget or could he not even be bothered to Goggle Ireland for a bit of material, for Gods sake we said no to Lisbon and we get some airy fairy nonsense that pipes out music once in a while from this chicken farming hack, seriously I was insulted that he didn’t bother his arse to try and insult us properly.

Ok so perhaps he never was a chicken farmer, well that’s how much effort I’ll be putting into researching him.
People presume that as Ireland is so close to the uk that they arent always thought as an independent country but through my experiece Ireland and England for example have very little in common except big factors such as main language and the weather pattens.:souka:

Starship
02-03-09, 13:08
The Simpson's are doing a new episode for St. Patrick's Day where they return to the old country to discover their routes or something, I think Homer ends up running a pub but with the smoking ban he goes bust.

Considering the last few times the Sims touched on the Irish (snake whacking day was invented to chase the Paddies out of town and they introduced prohibition when Bart got drunk at a St. Patrick's day parade) I can only imagine the slaging will be horrendous when they dedicate a whole show to Ireland.

The 17th March for any of you who don't know when to drown the shamrock, we have the dubious honour where by this new episode will be aired in Europe before being shown in the US, I cant wait I should just about have enough time to grow an extra layer of skin.

Strettger
24-06-09, 02:40
Quite funny, definitly on the mark for much of my fellow Brits. The middle aged part of our population loathe the word "Europe" for no real reason, the younger one of which I am a proud member of, can't get their heads around the idea of us not being European.

Thankfully it will be us running the show in a few years, which should make things more interesting in Brussels.

Marianne
25-06-09, 16:03
There are a few stereotypes in Greece about other EU countries

French: They are considered arrogant, they don't know how to speak English and even if they do they won't do it just to piss you off. They eat disgusting food like worms frogs etc and they talk like frogs. They don't wash and they use perfumes to cover the bad smells. They are considered fashionable and french clothing brands are the most popular here

Italians: The southern ones are considered all members of the mafia. Women are considered hot and sexy and the language erotic. They eat tons of pasta 10 times a day and also eat cats, horses and worms!!! Greeks like Italians in general and consider them "brothers" (una faccia una razza).

Germans: People here consider them cold and completely unsexy. They are bad in bed without imagination. German women are considered ugly cause of their height and wide shoulders (bone structure in general). There is still the stereotype from WWII that all German female athletes look like men due to too much steroids. They are organized and respect the laws

Dutch: They are constantly stoned and they only pay for sex.

Scandinavians: They are admired for their high standard of living but they are considered lousy in bed. Men here say that Swedish girls are good looking but in bed they are cold as ice. Scandinavian women in general are considered lesbians and feminists and men are considered unable to please their women turning them to lesbians...

Scotts: They are considered stingy and people call them "dagobert duck"

English: Their food is awfull. Men are considered gay and women bad in bed

Well in general all northern European women are considered bad/cold in bed by Greeks.

Spanish: Greeks like spanish people in general and the only stereotype that comes to my mind at the moment is that both men and women are considered very sexy and good in bed.

Eastern Europeans: Everybody is thought to be communist. They all have round faces and washed-out - "lifeless" hair colors. Russians are considered good with computers (hacking, cracking etc) and all russian sites will infect your computer with viruses/worms etc. :P

Minty
27-06-09, 03:41
My husband has told me a few stereotypes.

German, Dutch, Austrians, Scandinavians are easy to woo, just 5 minutes.

By contrast, Italians, Spanish Greeks are boring, it takes forever, they talk too much.

For the French the British, Irish, Scottish and Welsh are all the same, don't know how to cook, and don't know how to dress.

Spanish are loud and vulgar.

Eastern Europeans for them are all the same, they are considered another "race", with a different culture.

Scandinavians are far, distance and remote.

euromuslim
30-06-09, 21:00
There is very interesting book by Luigi Barzini, Jr., The Europeans. In that book he has described couple of European nations, and Americans, making some kind of popular psychological analisys of all these people. Now I don't have the book in my hands to quote something.

Miss Marple's nephew
01-07-09, 12:40
...Scandinavians are far, distance and remote.

But we're eager if you take the lead! :smile:

Minty
02-07-09, 02:49
But we're eager if you take the lead! :smile:

I have this feeling Scandinavians and French don't really get along, I get contrasting views coming from both ends, one coming from my husband and his people's points of views, the other my N European friend's point of view. :thinking: Plus some other stuff I read online, or something my German friend is saying to me!

And I wonder is it me or every time if there is a Scandinavian in my class it is almost always a Swedish, there was Norwegian girl once that's about it!

TheCaptain
02-07-09, 03:42
I have this feeling Scandinavians and French don't really get along, I get contrasting views coming from both ends, one coming from my husband and his people's points of views, the other my N European friend's point of view. :thinking: Plus some other stuff I read online, or something my German friend is saying to me!


I don't quite have the same feeling, but there are certainly some cultural diffferences between Scandinavia and France.

Scandinavians are informal, while the French are more formal. Scandinavians are very egalitarian, whereas France is a more hierarchical society. Last but not least, Scandinavians like people who are "down to earth" and dislike arrogant people. (no offence intended!)

euromuslim
02-07-09, 04:43
Generally southern people are much louder than northern. They express their feelings easily.

Miss Marple's nephew
02-07-09, 16:46
And I wonder is it me or every time if there is a Scandinavian in my class it is almost always a Swedish, there was Norwegian girl once that's about it!
We (in Sweden) have a cultural/blood-tie with France, well …. with the French. It’s a long story. Do want to hear the full version or the short one?

At the end of our war against Napoleon (the last time we fought ANY war) we ended up with a dead King and no crown prince to take his place. What to do!!! A French officer, in Napoleon’s Army, was never forgotten for his kindness and humanitarian character while he was commander of the forces holding Swedish captured officers during that war so it was suggested such a gentleman would be “the proper stuff” for the Swedish crown. And that is why our royal family is named Bernadotte ever since.

The older generation in Sweden think of themselves as Frenchman at heart (ha-ha!) and we hold a dear thought to France. As a matter of fact my oldest son is studying in Paris due to the Swedish/French exchange program........




I have this feeling Scandinavians and French don't really get along, I get contrasting views coming from both ends, one coming from my husband and his people's points of views, the other my N European friend's point of view. Plus some other stuff I read online, or something my German friend is saying to me!
........ on a more personal level I have had 2 relationships with French women ….. both were disasters! If I may be allowed to generalize (from my own experience) then I’d say that French women are so damned manipulative that I can’t imagine a Swedish man getting on well for any length of time with a French woman. That’s my opinion, anyway, so in the end I suppose that agree with you.

Miss Marple's nephew
02-07-09, 16:50
Generally southern people are much louder than northern. They express their feelings easily.

I agree to part of this. But I think northerners are LOUDER and abrupt whereas southerners just speak FASTER and they never stop!

Hartford688
05-07-09, 13:02
Well, I think that it tells us more about the Dutch than about the Germans. Whining about their bikes 60 years ago, when their country didn't even try to resist German invasion (the Nazi were practically "welcomed" to both the Netherlands and Denmark). Neither Denmark nor the Netherlands suffered much from the German occupation, as they were considered German provinces, not enemies. Germany itself, and the countries it was actively at war with, suffered much more from WWII in terms of casualties and destruction. Frankly, it is petty minded of either the Dutch or Danes to resent the Germans for WWII. They were the luckiest in all Europe. Even other countries have mostly turned the page now. That was 3 generations ago, let's not linger on it !


The devastation of Rotterdam city suggests some slight attempt to resist, no? Odd kind of treatment to give to people who are "welcoming " you?

Otherwise the "hongerwinter" might be inclined to give the Dutch a reason to be a bit peevish (and while 3 generations ago is still within living memory).

Not sure having 10,000+ of your civilians starved to death and resent it is just "petty minded" .

Agreed that we of course need to move on in a spirit of hope for the future of course...no reason for modern Germans to be blamed for the past.

But we needn't completely gloss it over either.

Apologies for such a bolshy first post! At least here is one breach to the stereotype...an Englishman who has not grown to hate his host country!

Minty
06-07-09, 00:30
We (in Sweden) have a cultural/blood-tie with France, well …. with the French. It’s a long story. Do want to hear the full version or the short one?

At the end of our war against Napoleon (the last time we fought ANY war) we ended up with a dead King and no crown prince to take his place. What to do!!! A French officer, in Napoleon’s Army, was never forgotten for his kindness and humanitarian character while he was commander of the forces holding Swedish captured officers during that war so it was suggested such a gentleman would be “the proper stuff” for the Swedish crown. And that is why our royal family is named Bernadotte ever since.

The older generation in Sweden think of themselves as Frenchman at heart (ha-ha!) and we hold a dear thought to France. As a matter of fact my oldest son is studying in Paris due to the Swedish/French exchange program........

Um I think you wrote a short version in the above explanation, can you give me long version. I wish to understand more...




........ on a more personal level I have had 2 relationships with French women ….. both were disasters! If I may be allowed to generalize (from my own experience) then I’d say that French women are so damned manipulative that I can’t imagine a Swedish man getting on well for any length of time with a French woman. That’s my opinion, anyway, so in the end I suppose that agree with you.

Hmmm yes if we had repeated poor experiences with the same ethnic after a while we don't really want to have anything private to do with that ethnic anymore. That, I agree.

Eireannach
20-10-09, 15:05
The Irish ― A very small country, despite its exaggerated importance in Americans’ minds (just over 3 million) but considered polite and humble. They nominally dislike the English, but I have yet to meet an Irishman who really loathes the English. The sentiments towards the Irish and by the Irish seem to be positive, overall.



There is 6 million people in Ireland. And there are plenty of people who loathe the English.

^ lynx ^
10-12-09, 02:25
However, God forbid you speak Spanish with a Latin American accent ۥ there is still a lot of snobbery among Spaniards towards Latin Americans.

Well, I don't want to generalize but some Latinamericans can be a pain in the ass. It has been 200 years since they won their independence, and still there are some people blaming Spain for almost all the problems their countries have... and while they blame on us they keep voting for corrupt bast*rds to rule them. :useless: And then you have people like Hugo Chavez, populists as*holes who don't know to talk about anything else but the evil USA and the evil Spain.


Spaniards consider themselves white and European, and would be deeply insulted if you suggested they were Latin American of any kind.

We are a nation with a strong personality, we care a lot about our own culture(s) and sometimes it's misled with other cultures like mexican's. I love Mexico, it's a beutiful country with a great past but this kind of things...

http://www.nassaulibrary.org/eastrock/spain_flag.jpg

...can be annoying for us sometimes. And then you have these cheesy Latinamerican tv soap operas, which use to be misled as spanish tv soap operas in some East-European countries. Latinamerican soap operas use to make sexist or even homophobic remarks... they show a society that is far from being like the spanish society.

Spanish society is more advanced than latinamerican... yes I know this is snob, but it's the reality. Spain legalized same-sex marriage a few years ago, this is almost an utopia in Latinamerica.

So I wouldn't say this snobbery thing it's a racist thing.

let`s talk
10-12-09, 18:11
The mystery about Russia is that many foreigners dislike Russia, the Russians and the Russian government. But they never dislike Mr.Ivanov or Mr.Smirnov or Ms.Petrova or Ms.Maleeva. If you got my drift.

Wilhelm
10-12-09, 20:05
Most people in the world and even in Europe, have a very distorted image of Spain.
They only know about the gypsie culture, or confuse Spain with latin america.
However, the Real Spain, is very different : in Spain we have different cultures: Catalan, Basque, Galician, Asturian , Castilian, etc..and they are all indeed european cultures of Celtic, Iberian, Roman, Germanic origin .

The gypsy hollywood culture, it's just a myth, that goes back to Franco times, who promoted this MINORITY culture, because it's not true, it's not the reality, and people who like bulls are just a minority of old aged people.

Cambrius (The Red)
10-12-09, 20:08
Most people in the world and even in Europe, have a very distorted image of Spain.
They only know about the gypsie culture, or confuse Spain with latin america.
However, the Real Spain, is very different : in Spain we have different cultures: Catalan, Basque, Galician, Asturian , Castilian, ..and they are all indeed european cultures of different background : Celtic, Iberian, Roman, Germanic, etc

The gypsy hollywood culture is only practiced by a minority of old aged gypsies in South Spain, and that's about it.

So very true... Much of the world is filled with ignorant, badly educated people. Quite sad.

Wilhelm
10-12-09, 21:39
It's funny because tourists are more interested in bull riding than real spaniards lol, about 80% of people in bulls riding are tourists, the rest are old-aged people. It's more of a business thing than a reality. They don't want to burst people's bubbles, tourism here is a big business.

Wilhelm
16-12-09, 04:22
Nobody listens to flamenco in Spain...that's the TRUTH

Maciamo
16-12-09, 13:30
Nobody listens to flamenco in Spain...that's the TRUTH

No more than Austrians sing Tyrolean songs. :satisfied:

To be fair Flamenco isn't really Spanish, but a fusion of Arabic, Sephardic Jewish and Gypsy music/dance. Chicken Tikka Massala was invented in Britain by Indian immigrants, but that does not make it British for all that.

LeBrok
16-12-09, 19:17
Nobody listens to flamenco in Spain...that's the TRUTH

Darn, it was my dream to live in Spain, and once a month go to local Taverna for Flamenco music. Thanks for ruining it.
I'm a ****** for a music that conveys lots of pain, like flamenco, morna or fado with Cesaria Evora, russian protest songs with Vladimir Visotzky, or piano music of Chopin.

Dean
16-12-09, 21:19
Darn, it was my dream to live in Spain, and once a month go to local Taverna for Flamenco music. Thanks for ruining it.
I'm a ****** for a music that conveys lots of pain, like flamenco, morna or fado with Cesaria Evora, russian protest songs with Vladimir Visotzky, or piano music of Chopin.

The fact is that we spaniards dont listen to flamenco and we never "go to local Taverna for Flamenco music". Flamenco is mainly for turists. :rolleyes2:

^ lynx ^
16-12-09, 21:29
Flamenco is like a tradition for gipsy families in Spain, in almost every family they teach their children to either dance flamenco or play the guitar... this doesn't happen with non-gipsy families in Spain. That's why most of flamenco artists are gipsies (Joaquin Cortes or maestro Paco de Lucia...).

When Franco's regime openned Spain to the world our tourism industry portrayed Spain as sun, beach, bullfighting and flamenco... that was a cultural suicide. Spain is much more than just that.

Sirius2b
17-12-09, 22:07
Well, I don't want to generalize but some Latinamericans can be a pain in the ass.

Yes, some of us are quite obnoxious... :rolleyes2:



It has been 200 years since they won their independence, and still there are some people blaming Spain for almost all the problems their countries have... and while they blame on us they keep voting for corrupt bast*rds to rule them. :useless: And then you have people like Hugo Chavez, populists as*holes who don't know to talk about anything else but the evil USA and the evil Spain.

Hugo Chavez is my hero.

The most corrupt ¨bast*rds are those that betray Latin America because they feel attached to Spain.

Hugo Chavez and other leftist Presidents in Latin America, do not waste their time looking for ways to insult Spain. They use their time advancing their countries.


We are a nation with a strong personality,...

Don't tell me... :rolleyes2:


... we care a lot about our own culture(s) and sometimes it's misled with other cultures like mexican's. I love Mexico, it's a beutiful country with a great past but this kind of things...

(image)

...can be annoying for us sometimes.

Where did you get this image? And what is supposed to be wrong with it? That it somehow confound Spaniards with Mexicans, or something? :laughing:

The hat is not a Mexican hat, and the moustache could be Italian... I think that you sould go to the shrink. Nobody is going to confound this with anything Mexican. Maybe it is your complex of dark-skinned South European, that is haunting you.


And then you have these cheesy Latinamerican tv soap operas, which use to be misled as spanish tv soap operas in some East-European countries. Latinamerican soap operas use to make sexist or even homophobic remarks... they show a society that is far from being like the spanish society.

There you are!!

Shurely the success of some Mexican soap-operas in the Russian TV in the 90s was for you some sort of nightmare!!! :angry:

:embarassed:



Spanish society is more advanced than latinamerican... yes I know this is snob, but it's the reality. Spain legalized same-sex marriage a few years ago, this is almost an utopia in Latinamerica.

So I wouldn't say this snobbery thing it's a racist thing.

For me, you could be as snob and racist as you like... well, I don't know if someone is going to counfound you with a Norwegean or Swede in the streets of Berlin, for example. :useless:

I am serious!!! 50 Million Spaniards do not take the sleep away from us, 500 million Latin Americans.

Adios.

^ lynx ^
17-12-09, 23:26
See? This is what I was trying to explain. These people is too much sensitive and bitter, whenever we try to separate ourselves from them they take it as a personal insult... .


Hugo Chavez and other leftist Presidents in Latin America, do not waste their time looking for ways to insult Spain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqXJ6lDL1QQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdSE-lI6eEA

Sure, that's why he has his own weekly tv program "Alo, Presidente"... to spit on whoever he wants (including Spain).

That's why you'll never progress, you keep supporting 'politicians' that treat your countries like their Banana Republics and it's citizens like sheeps.


I am serious!!! 50 Million Spaniards do not take the sleep away from us, 500 million Latin Americans.

Sure. Check out youtube or any spanish websites, everything related to Spain or spaniards is always full of resentful latinamerican ****** making a joke of themselves with their irrational hate towards Spain. You can't say the same about spaniards in latinamericans websites.

Adios (Hopefully).

Wilhelm
17-12-09, 23:30
Typical Mexican anger and jelousy towards Spaniards...Why can't you accept the fact that we have nothing to do with you Mexicans ?? That we are White Europeans with european culture and traditions....Why get angered when we say we don't want to be confused with mexicans !! That's not attacking anyone, it's just the truth, you are Indians and we Euroepans, it's not the difficult to comprehend ...

^ lynx ^
17-12-09, 23:36
I hope to be wrong but I'm afraid this isn't going to end well. :36:

Cambrius (The Red)
17-12-09, 23:50
I hope to be wrong but I'm afraid this isn't going to end well. :36:

I agree... :innocent:

Maciamo
18-12-09, 00:00
Just a reminder that this thread is not the one about Spaniards being white, but about what Europeans think about each others. Why did we start talking about Latin America here ?

Wilhelm
18-12-09, 00:04
Just a reminder that this thread is not the one about Spaniards being white, but about what Europeans think about each others. Why did we start talking about Latin America here ?
A meixcan guy entered in all the discussions related with spaniards..I wonder why :innocent:

Cambrius (The Red)
18-12-09, 00:05
Just a reminder that this thread is not the one about Spaniards being white, but about what Europeans think about each others. Why did we start talking about Latin America here ?

I think the Mexican contributor is the one who started discussing Latin America and Latin Americans.

^ lynx ^
18-12-09, 00:20
Why did we start talking about Latin America here ?

I answered to the stereotype of "spaniards being snobs towards Latin Americans" saying that some Latin Americans can be a pain in the ass for us sometimes... now our mexican friend seems committed to prove my point.

Greetings.

Sirius2b
18-12-09, 01:28
Just a reminder that this thread is not the one about Spaniards being white, but about what Europeans think about each others. Why did we start talking about Latin America here ?

Hello, @Maciamo, in Post #24 of this thema, Lynx began to talk about how he felt that Spaniards were compared with Mexicans and some confound backward Latin American Soap Operas with a product of Spain.

That, as you rightly say, was not in accord with the spirit of this Thread.

Regards.

^ lynx ^
18-12-09, 01:52
As I said I was trying to answer to the "spaniards being snob towards Latin americans" stereotype... this shouldn't have been a problem if it wasn't for the natives of the New World's hypersensibility.

Nicolas Peucelle
18-12-09, 02:04
Today... in the good mood I'm right now.. this evening... I think that we can be satisfied to be europeans and look forward to times where wars and destructions of our commun achievements will be the "errors" of our past. We may still take war monging parties while reading history books about heroic actions and sacrifices, feel that some did wrong or worse and evil, but at the end... the europeans need to come to the conclusion that we need to be the "builder" and "developer" of this continent, be the example for the rest of the world, and do this without sending to battles against each other our most motivated people, ever again. I often say to people I meet in backward regions of the world with wars still going on... "take us europeans as a sample now.. we killed more people right in front of our doorsteps.. than you folks massacre in your present war.. so be confident that it may just become peaceful some day like in Europe in your places, too...we have been far worse and efficient in destroying a lot of things back home in Europe.. so once you understand how we succeeded to get along finaly, you will be fine, too !"

Dean
18-12-09, 10:28
Hello, @Maciamo, in Post #24 of this thema, Lynx began to talk about how he felt that Spaniards were compared with Mexicans and some confound backward Latin American Soap Operas with a product of Spain.

That, as you rightly say, was not in accord with the spirit of this Thread.

Regards.

Perdona, pero todo esto viene a colacion de lo qeu se puso en el primer mensaje y que es la tematica del hilo no porque lynx sacara nada :

The Spaniards ― Honestly, very little antagonism against the Spanish or by the Spanish. No one really seems to dislike them, and they don’t seem to really dislike anyone else. (Yes, some Spaniards near the border to France don’t like the French very much) Not entirely sure why. However, God forbid you speak Spanish with a Latin American accent ― there is still a lot of snobbery among Spaniards towards Latin Americans. Spaniards consider themselves white and European, and would be deeply insulted if you suggested they were Latin American of any kind.

Asi que no es algo que alguien sacara porque si. Sigo sin entender que tipo de problema tienes contra nosotros.

Maciamo
18-12-09, 12:41
Perdona, pero todo esto viene a colacion de lo qeu se puso en el primer mensaje y que es la tematica del hilo no porque lynx sacara nada :

The Spaniards ― Honestly, very little antagonism against the Spanish or by the Spanish. No one really seems to dislike them, and they don’t seem to really dislike anyone else. (Yes, some Spaniards near the border to France don’t like the French very much) Not entirely sure why. However, God forbid you speak Spanish with a Latin American accent ― there is still a lot of snobbery among Spaniards towards Latin Americans. Spaniards consider themselves white and European, and would be deeply insulted if you suggested they were Latin American of any kind.

Asi que no es algo que alguien sacara porque si. Sigo sin entender que tipo de problema tienes contra nosotros.

I see why our fellow Mexican reacted the way he did. Lynx was trying to make a point, but he overdid it a bit, not thinking about the feelings of the Latin Americans as he wrote that. It could have been formulated otherwise. But what's done is done. Let's just stop the argument about Latin America here.

Dean
18-12-09, 13:39
I agree with you, Maciamo. Lets stop.

^ lynx ^
18-12-09, 16:57
It could have been formulated otherwise.

You don't get it. It doesn't matter HOW I would have written my message he would have felt insulted ANYWAYS. Look, I know this people very well they are completely resentful and obsessed with us, I'm feed up with this **** all over internet believe me.

Just check out Sirius' messages archive, he has started his own personal "vendetta" against the Iberians... He claimed they aren't obsessed with us and that he didn't get into the forum to talk about us but 90% of his messages are already about ******ng against us.

You get a ***** into the forum but you haven't noticed... yet. Good luck. :innocent:


Greetings.

Heber
26-01-10, 22:10
http://www.ac-nancy-metz.fr/enseign/anglais/Henry/civistereotype.htm

Yorkie
19-10-10, 15:54
There are a few stereotypes in Greece about other EU countries

French: They are considered arrogant, they don't know how to speak English and even if they do they won't do it just to piss you off. They eat disgusting food like worms frogs etc and they talk like frogs. They don't wash and they use perfumes to cover the bad smells. They are considered fashionable and french clothing brands are the most popular here

Italians: The southern ones are considered all members of the mafia. Women are considered hot and sexy and the language erotic. They eat tons of pasta 10 times a day and also eat cats, horses and worms!!! Greeks like Italians in general and consider them "brothers" (una faccia una razza).

Germans: People here consider them cold and completely unsexy. They are bad in bed without imagination. German women are considered ugly cause of their height and wide shoulders (bone structure in general). There is still the stereotype from WWII that all German female athletes look like men due to too much steroids. They are organized and respect the laws

Dutch: They are constantly stoned and they only pay for sex.

Scandinavians: They are admired for their high standard of living but they are considered lousy in bed. Men here say that Swedish girls are good looking but in bed they are cold as ice. Scandinavian women in general are considered lesbians and feminists and men are considered unable to please their women turning them to lesbians...

Scotts: They are considered stingy and people call them "dagobert duck"

English: Their food is awfull. Men are considered gay and women bad in bed

Well in general all northern European women are considered bad/cold in bed by Greeks.

Spanish: Greeks like spanish people in general and the only stereotype that comes to my mind at the moment is that both men and women are considered very sexy and good in bed.

Eastern Europeans: Everybody is thought to be communist. They all have round faces and washed-out - "lifeless" hair colors. Russians are considered good with computers (hacking, cracking etc) and all russian sites will infect your computer with viruses/worms etc. :P

So English men are, 'considered gay' are they? That is a bit rich coming from a Greek. :shocked::laughing: Incidentally, sodomy is often referred to as 'Greek' in Britain.

barbarian
19-10-10, 19:43
russian protest songs with Vladimir Visotzky,
it is really nice. try lube also, if you didnt yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3D_0OXDmfM

Yorkie
19-10-10, 19:52
it is really nice. try lube also, if you didnt yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3D_0OXDmfM

Interesting.

Aristander
19-10-10, 22:01
it is really nice. try lube also, if you didnt yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3D_0OXDmfM


Hmmm... Maybe that explains why Turkish Baths are so popular male same sex aficionados! :laughing:

barbarian
20-10-10, 00:14
Hmmm... Maybe that explains why Turkish Baths are so popular male same sex aficionados! :laughing:


http://alphadesigner.com/project-mapping-stereotypes.html

Yorkie
20-10-10, 01:17
Good Lord! This forum is turning into a house of depravity, of unseemly lubricity even...

Carlitos
05-11-10, 03:33
In Spain usually not too often stereotype others by their nationality and especially in Andalusia is very difficult to talk bad or criticize someone from another region of Spain or another country, it is easier to hear criticism in Catalonia from other Spanish or Europeans do not know what it is, but it is.

We know our historic failures and missed the train, the fact of being a country as rich as other Europeans long ago that critics are in the same direction, but we know the stereotypes that other Europeans think of us and makes us laugh, by ignorance.

Anyway Europeans who speak Spanish are more: English, French, Italian, German, Swedish

English: Violent, drunk and rowdy revelers.

French: Stakeholders, unsupportive, chauvinists, do not use soap are poured perfume, moody.

Germany: Men are heads blocks and German women are very good. Drink lots of beer. Is nice in general.

Sweden: Swedish men do not exist, only Swedish women.

Italian: The Spanish believe they fully understand the Italian language. Other stereotypes are related to Italian food.

Portuguese: Oh! are poor.

For ordinary people the rest of Europe is largely unknown or does not maintain a modern topical tradition, as they are now known to be due to immigration, as may be the case in Romania, it is better not express what word on the street.

DavidCoutts
07-11-10, 03:02
Sterotypes I have found:
I'll start with my own first, The English
Stuck up. Look down on all other Europeans as they are all foreign and not English or British. Consider themselves as completely seperate from Europe, especially France. Bad food, bad teeth and drink nothing but tea. Abroad are loud, obnoxious and just why can't all these foreigners speak english?

The Scots
Misers. Miserable and have never forgiven the English for the defeats they have inflicted on them in most of the battles. Strong willed and the Highland scots hate the lowland scots and visa versa. Alawys wear kilts and eat haggis.

The Irish
Not very bright. Jolly and drunk. Like fighting. All of Ireland is nothing but small villages like Ballykissangel. Land of potatoes and whiskey

The French
Arrogant. Hate anyone who isn't french, especially the english. Hate anyone who doesn't speak french, it is, after all, a langauge of culture. Lovers and have good food, as long as you like garlic. All men in France smoke bad cigarettes, wear striped t-shirts and ride old bicycles with oinions around ther necks. Hate Parisians, but then again the Parisians hate the rest of France. Eat frogs legs and drink huge amounts of wine. Have no idea what soap is.

The Italians
Better known than the french for surrendering at the slightest sound of a gun. Hot headed lovers and knife wielding maniacs all out for vengence if you insult them, their family, cousins, towns, neighbours goat. Drive like lunatics in old Fiat 500s. Also known for being stylish in the cities, but the people in villages all dress like they have dropped out of the 19th century. eat nothing put pasta and tomatoes.

The Spanish
Laid back and always asleep during the afternoon. Never rush at anything. Like nothing better than finding an innocent animal and finding a novel way of killing it do not know what a car is really for and which side of the road to drive on.

The Swiss
Chocolate, cuckoo clocks and most of the world money. Most boring country in Europe.

The Germans
Do not know what a sense of humour is, even the langauge sounds grumpy and unfunny. A habit of starting landwars in Europe. Like order and will not deviate from instructions. Tidy, neat, obsessive, in other words a country of anal retentives. Make good efficient cars with no soul. have no speed limit on the autobahns. Food is something to be desired consisting of nothing but sausages and pickled cabbage. Like beer, huge quanties of it.

The Dutch
Most relaxed country in Europe as they are all stoned. Known for sticking fingers in holes in dykes.

:D:D:D

Miserable I'll grant you; we are possibly the only people to make the Swedes look like a barrel of laughs. But it's hardly because of the defeats inflicted upon us by the English, since we won almost as many battles as we lost. And that includes the most important single battle in Scotland and Englands shared history - Bannockburn. After the 23rd and 24th of June 1314, no English monarch ever again attempted to conquer Scotland.:grin:

Yes, we lost several important battles after that, including Flodden. And Cromwell kicked seven shades of crap out of us - but then, Cromwell kicked everyone's ass.:petrified:

History has proved that my people do two things very well indeed: invent things and kill large number of their fellow human beings. There is a joke that goes, "The Terror Threat Alert in Scotland has been raised from Pissed Off to Kill The Bastards! The Scots don't have any other Threat Levels, which is one reason why they have served on the front line of every war the British have fought for centuries.":laughing:

Yorkie
13-11-10, 20:21
Miserable I'll grant you; we are possibly the only people to make the Swedes look like a barrel of laughs. But it's hardly because of the defeats inflicted upon us by the English, since we won almost as many battles as we lost. And that includes the most important single battle in Scotland and Englands shared history - Bannockburn. After the 23rd and 24th of June 1314, no English monarch ever again attempted to conquer Scotland.:grin:

Yes, we lost several important battles after that, including Flodden. And Cromwell kicked seven shades of crap out of us - but then, Cromwell kicked everyone's ass.:petrified:

History has proved that my people do two things very well indeed: invent things and kill large number of their fellow human beings. There is a joke that goes, "The Terror Threat Alert in Scotland has been raised from Pissed Off to Kill The Bastards! The Scots don't have any other Threat Levels, which is one reason why they have served on the front line of every war the British have fought for centuries.":laughing:

I wouldn't crow too much about the relative absence of English military interventions post-1314. There are other ways of conquering that don't involve military violence. The Tories, surely an English political party and nothing else, rode roughshod over Scotland for years, even daring to use the Scots as Guinea Pigs for the Poll Tax idea. 'No-one touches me with impunity'.... an Englishwoman called Margaret Thatcher did!

Minty
26-12-10, 20:48
Sterotypes I have found:
I'll start with my own first, The English
Stuck up. Look down on all other Europeans as they are all foreign and not English or British. Consider themselves as completely seperate from Europe, especially France. Bad food, bad teeth and drink nothing but tea. Abroad are loud, obnoxious and just why can't all these foreigners speak english?
The Scots
Misers. Miserable and have never forgiven the English for the defeats they have inflicted on them in most of the battles. Strong willed and the Highland scots hate the lowland scots and visa versa. Alawys wear kilts and eat haggis.
The Irish
Not very bright. Jolly and drunk. Like fighting. All of Ireland is nothing but small villages like Ballykissangel. Land of potatoes and whiskey
The French
Arrogant. Hate anyone who isn't french, especially the english. Hate anyone who doesn't speak french, it is, after all, a langauge of culture. Lovers and have good food, as long as you like garlic. All men in France smoke bad cigarettes, wear striped t-shirts and ride old bicycles with oinions around ther necks. Hate Parisians, but then again the Parisians hate the rest of France. Eat frogs legs and drink huge amounts of wine. Have no idea what soap is.


This is so funny!!! I only recently learnt in Art History that the French never bathed themselves until after 1850, so every two months they needed to all move out of the palace and cleaned up. :rolleyes2: And yet they already had clean water running through for those lovely fountains, but in the beautiful “Versailles” there were no signs of constructions of the toilet or the bathroom! They were afraid to contract some sort of disease from the water, and they used perfume instead!

It is true the French don't make effort to understand English; my French professor thought that Scottish, Irish and English were all the same! I was the one who corrected her, she didn't even take my word for it, she had to confirm it with the Irish dude in my class, because "All Chinese people come from China" no wait she thought I was Japanese!


The Italians
Better known than the french for surrendering at the slightest sound of a gun. Hot headed lovers and knife wielding maniacs all out for vengence if you insult them, their family, cousins, towns, neighbours goat. Drive like lunatics in old Fiat 500s. Also known for being stylish in the cities, but the people in villages all dress like they have dropped out of the 19th century. eat nothing put pasta and tomatoes.
The Spanish
Laid back and always asleep during the afternoon. Never rush at anything. Like nothing better than finding an innocent animal and finding a novel way of killing it do not know what a car is really for and which side of the road to drive on.

They are loud, like Southern Italians and Portugese!


The Swiss
Chocolate, cuckoo clocks and most of the world money. Most boring country in Europe.

I think they are xenophobic

The Germans
Do not know what a sense of humour is, even the langauge sounds grumpy and unfunny. A habit of starting landwars in Europe. Like order and will not deviate from instructions. Tidy, neat, obsessive, in other words a country of anal retentives. Make good efficient cars with no soul. have no speed limit on the autobahns. Food is something to be desired consisting of nothing but sausages and pickled cabbage. Like beer, huge quanties of it.

They love their heavy foods, and are fairly cold but not xenophobic, I think you need to know them pretty well to be considered as their friends, and otherwise you are just an acquaintance to them!


The Dutch
Most relaxed country in Europe as they are all stoned. Known for sticking fingers in holes in dykes.
:D:D:D

I think they are way too obsessed with the ideal of freedom, and way too proud of it! My international relations professor said that too much freedom can be a threat to democracy especially when it is used in the wrong way!

Mzungu mchagga
27-12-10, 03:41
Regardless of what you've posted, Minty is back!!! :good_job:

Reinaert
28-12-10, 17:45
I think they are way too obsessed with the ideal of freedom, and way too proud of it! My international relations professor said that too much freedom can be a threat to democracy especially when it is used in the wrong way!

Who do you mean Minty?

And I guess your professor is right.

He seems to have read Ortega Y Gasset. :innocent:

http://www.historyguide.org/europe/gasset.html

Minty
30-12-10, 00:09
Regardless of what you've posted, Minty is back!!! :good_job:

Recht schönen Dank!

:satisfied::cool-v: I didn't know I have a fan here! :embarassed:

Minty
30-12-10, 00:10
Who do you mean Minty?
And I guess your professor is right.
He seems to have read Ortega Y Gasset. :innocent:
http://www.historyguide.org/europe/gasset.html

You knew what I meant Monsieur! :good_job:

Grizzly
08-01-11, 19:10
In Spain

French: Stakeholders, unsupportive, chauvinists, do not use soap are poured perfume, moody.


It is rather a american cliche than a Spanish one. Spanish peoples have been immigrants in France from 19th century to the 80's, so it was the contrary : they were suffering from racism, a lot of "native" French saying that they were uncivilized, filthy, non integrable, the upper-classes children had not the right to play with their ones...

With the american way of life, their jokes about France have become now almost international.

Carlitos
09-01-11, 00:29
It is rather a american cliche than a Spanish one. Spanish peoples have been immigrants in France from 19th century to the 80's, so it was the contrary : they were suffering from racism, a lot of "native" French saying that they were uncivilized, filthy, non integrable, the upper-classes children had not the right to play with their ones...

With the american way of life, their jokes about France have become now almost international.

With the pumps that pull the blowhards are made corkscrews Cadiz, females thorough in this land when they are born and have been calling for war! War! War!

You may be right.

^ lynx ^
04-02-11, 09:13
It is rather a american cliche than a Spanish one. Spanish peoples have been immigrants in France from 19th century to the 80's, so it was the contrary : they were suffering from racism, a lot of "native" French saying that they were uncivilized, filthy, non integrable, the upper-classes children had not the right to play with their ones...

With the american way of life, their jokes about France have become now almost international.

It wasn't merely xenophobia. Your country treated the spanish republicans like garbage in concentration camps created by the french goverment... they were treated worst than criminals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_camps_in_France

All because France was afraid of Franco and his friend Hitler. This makes me recall another usual french stereotype: Cowardice.

Greetings.

Wilhelm
04-02-11, 17:02
It is rather a american cliche than a Spanish one. Spanish peoples have been immigrants in France from 19th century to the 80's, so it was the contrary : they were suffering from racism, a lot of "native" French saying that they were uncivilized, filthy, non integrable, the upper-classes children had not the right to play with their ones...

With the american way of life, their jokes about France have become now almost international.
Well, northern spain is way richer than south France. The french have always wanted to be like Germans or British, and have always regarded spaniards with disdain, even tough during history the spanish Empire the stereotype of French being COWARDS was known then.

Cambrius (The Red)
04-02-11, 17:12
It is rather a american cliche than a Spanish one. Spanish peoples have been immigrants in France from 19th century to the 80's, so it was the contrary : they were suffering from racism, a lot of "native" French saying that they were uncivilized, filthy, non integrable, the upper-classes children had not the right to play with their ones...

With the american way of life, their jokes about France have become now almost international.

Given this and some other outrageous comments you have made, it is abundantly clear that you dislike Spaniards. How many other European ethnicities do you not like? I see something pathological here...

Grizzly
04-02-11, 21:03
Your country treated the spanish republicans like garbage in concentration camps created by the french goverment

I don't see the link with my post.

Grizzly
04-02-11, 21:11
Well, northern spain is way richer than south France.

More exactly, northern Spain has become now richer than some southern french regions. Thanks to European integration. Before the 80's, Spain was almost a thirld-world country.



The french have always wanted to be like Germans or British

Not really. Basic germanophobia and anglophobia have not completely disappeared.

Grizzly
04-02-11, 21:18
Given this and some other outrageous comments you have made

I don't remember about any outrage.


it is abundantly clear that you dislike Spaniards.

I don't dislike anyone. My post was just about the facts that I have observed with the Spanish immigrants in France some years ago.



How many other European ethnicities do you not like? I see something pathological here...

0 + 0 = 0

Wilhelm
04-02-11, 21:32
More exactly, northern Spain has become now richer than some southern french regions. Thanks to European integration. Before the 80's, Spain was almost a thirld-world country.
Same with Ireland or Iceland. But Spain was not even part of the Marshall Plan, and had an autarchy during dictatorship.


Not really. Basic germanophobia and anglophobia have not completely disappeared.
It is well known the admiration and almost of worship of France towards the "popular guys" (germany and Britain) and disdain towards spaniards. Maybe a complex ?? Because the spanish empire 'owned' the French.

^ lynx ^
04-02-11, 21:40
I don't see the link with my post.

Of course you don't.

Grizzly
04-02-11, 21:43
Same with Ireland or Iceland.

Iceland is not in European Union. Are you sure to reside in Europe ?

For Ireland, yes, and what does it change to the sense of my post ?



It is well known the admiration and almost of worship of France towards the "popular guys" (germany and Britain)

You really don't know France.



Because the spanish empire 'owned' the French.

??

^ lynx ^
04-02-11, 21:49
More exactly, northern Spain has become now richer than some southern french regions. Thanks to European integration. Before the 80's, Spain was almost a thirld-world country.

World GPD in 1983:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gdp-economy-gdp&date=1983

Spain was the 12th largest economy in the world by then and we didn't get into the CEE until 1984/85. Our situation wasn't too much different before the 80's. All that despite not having the help of "Uncle Tom" ($$$$) after the great war... unlike your country.

Yes, yes, we were almost a third-world country definetly.

Grizzly
04-02-11, 22:00
World GPD in 1983:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gdp-economy-gdp&date=1983

Spain was the 12th largest economy in the world by then and we didn't get into the CEE until 1984/85.

I won't make a battle of numbers, but a quick research shows Venezuela, Puerto Rico, front of Spain in the 70's.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gdp_per_cap_in_197-economy-gdp-per-capita-1973

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gdp_percap-economy-gdp-per-capita&date=1970


I don't take the 60's. It would be too outrageous (Trinidad Tobago and Libya were before Spain).

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gdp_percap-economy-gdp-per-capita&date=1965


Conclusion : like I have said, before the 80's, Spain was rather a third-world country. It is not a shame, it was not alone, but facts are facts. If Spain was so rich, millions of Spanish people would not have come in France to find work and money.

^ lynx ^
04-02-11, 22:08
You're being ridiculously cherry picking now. (Puerto Rico became part of USA in 1898... and you weren't talking about the 60's in your prior message, Venezuela has oil but most of venezulan people don't really get that amount of money at the end of the year, check out their GINI and you will learn some things). Qatar has one the highest GPD per capita today but still that country is full of poverty.

So your statement "Before the 80's, Spain was almost a thirld-world country" remains a pile of bullshit. I sense that your butt hurt for some strange reason but I fail to see why. PMS?

Grizzly
04-02-11, 22:23
you weren't talking about the 60's in your prior message

Sorry to quote myself :


Before the 80's, Spain was almost a thirld-world country.

The 60's should not be before the 80's ?



Venezuela has oil but most of venezulan people don't really get that amount of money at the end of the year

Do you think that it was so much different in the dictature of Franco ?



So your statement "Before the 80's, Spain was almost a thirld-world country" remains a pile of bullshit.

No. It is the truth according to the economical and sociological evidences : Spain was a country of departure of a lot of emigrants to France who wanted to flee the misery. But you are not obliged to admit the facts, above all if they hurt your national pride.

^ lynx ^
04-02-11, 22:26
HDI - Humand Development Index from 1970 to 2010. HDI is a much more accurate index for this matter:

http://hdr.undp.org/en/data/trends/

There it goes your pathetic ******** attempt. Take care of your PMS. :good_job:

Wilhelm
04-02-11, 22:32
Sorry to quote myself :

The 60's should not be before the 80's ?


Do you think that it was so much different in the dictature of Franco ?


No. It is the truth according to the economical and sociological evidences : Spain was a country of departure of a lot of emigrants to France who wanted to flee the misery. But you are not obliged to admit the facts, above all if they hurt your national pride.
What is your criteria for third-world country ? Because for example Equatorial Guinea has a high per capita but it's considered a third-world country. Like ^Lynx^ says, the HDI is used for this classifications. And Spain was at the top also in the 70's.

^ lynx ^
04-02-11, 22:33
I'm not denying the departure of many spaniards by that time. I'm denying the statement "Before the 80's, Spain was almost a thirld-world country". There are about 500.000 italian immigrants in Germany today... but nobody can seriously believe that Italy is a third-world country.

You're either senile or can't read properly.

^ lynx ^
04-02-11, 22:40
What is your criteria for third-world country ? Because for example Equatorial Guinea has a high per capita but it's considered a third-world country. Like ^Lynx^ says, the HDI is used for this classifications. And Spain was at the top also in the 70's.

He's obviusly trying to disrupt. There's something hurting this guy's butt I don't know what or why... it's starting to intriguing me.

Grizzly
04-02-11, 22:58
HDI - Humand Development Index from 1970 to 2010. HDI is a much more accurate index for this matter:

http://hdr.undp.org/en/data/trends/

There it goes your pathetic ******** attempt. Take care of your PMS. :good_job:

I have taken your own source. It is not my fault if you self-destroy your arguments...For your second source, you take in count the 80-90-2000's. So it is inaccurate.

Grizzly
04-02-11, 23:00
What is your criteria for third-world country ? Because for example Equatorial Guinea has a high per capita but it's considered a third-world country. Like ^Lynx^ says, the HDI is used for this classifications. And Spain was at the top also in the 70's.

By third-world, I mean a country where the people are obliged to flee to find work and money because this country is not rich enough to provide it by its own means. This is a very subjective definition, I know.

^ lynx ^
04-02-11, 23:02
You have taken my own source?

HDI from 1970 to 2010 for France, Spain and Venezuela:

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/4495/pantallazo1zh.png (http://img28.imageshack.us/i/pantallazo1zh.png/)

Spain and France are both bold-blue.
Venezuela is the bold-turquoise line.

Source: http://hdr.undp.org/en/data/trends/

I guess you enjoy embarrassing yourself.

Grizzly
04-02-11, 23:04
There are about 500.000 italian immigrants in Germany today... but nobody can seriously believe that Italy is a third-world country.

You're either senile or can't read properly.

Italy is no longer a third-world country now, but at the period of this immigration in Germany, yes, we could say that Italy had a lot of "third-world" features or living standards.

^ lynx ^
04-02-11, 23:09
By third-world, I mean a country where the people are obliged to flee to find work and money because this country is not rich enough to provide it by its own means. This is a very subjective definition, I know.


'Entrepreneur' means little in France

Start-up hopefuls find a friendlier business environment in the U.S. than in their homeland, which favors larger employers.

Anu Partanen, contributor
Last Updated: April 9, 2009: 9:47 AM ET


NEW YORK (Fortune) -- An e-mail message with the provocative subject line, "Entrepreneurs: France's Newest Export," arrived at Fortune's offices one March evening at about 6:30 pm Eastern Time. (That's 12:30 am Paris time.) "More and more U.S. technology companies are founded by French entrepreneurs," it read.

France, of course, is well known for many of the finer things in life -- its cuisine, its wines, its culture -- but it is not notorious for its prowess in technological innovation.

As it turns out, there are some 400 to 500 French companies operating in California's Silicon Valley, according to French trade groups, among them are Talend, a data integration company founded in France in 2005 which now has offices in Los Altos, Calif. (and the UK, Germany, Belgium) and boasts clients such as Yahoo!, Virgin Mobile, Honda, Sony and the United Nations. VirtualLogix, a French virtualization software start-up based in Silicon Valley, has received financing from Cisco Systems, Intel and Motorola. Qualys, another privately held company offering network security software as a service to companies such as eBay, Cisco and Hewlett Packard, was started by two French entrepreneurs and is now based in Redwood Shores, Calif.

But international business experts suggest these success stories may be a result of -- despite the word's French origin -- unfriendly conditions for entrepreneurs.

"Overall France has been much more friendly to big firms than it has been to start-ups," says Isabelle Lescent-Giles, an associate professor of international business at San Jos State University whose studies compare business cultures in Europe, U.S. and Asia. "Launching a start-up in France is like playing Russian roulette in some ways."

Failure is not tolerated in French business culture as it is in the U.S., Lescent-Giles says, and both the legal and social consequences of bankruptcy are much more dire in France. The government dominates the economy, and the business elite is almost exclusively recruited from the elite schools, the Grandes coles.

When the rogue trader Jrme Kerviel, for example, lost $7.2 billion in the stock market for one of France's largest banks, Socit Gnrale, last year, many local commentators seemed more puzzled by the fact that Kerviel -- who had not attended any of the elite schools -- had managed to make it to the trading floor in the first place, rather than by his ability to lose so much money without anyone noticing.

All this has created a culture of steady careers in big firms rather than of risky innovation in start-ups.

Indeed, some French entrepreneurs have moved to the U.S. in order to seek their fame and fortune in technology, including Eric Benhamou, a serial entrepreneur and an ex-CEO of Palm, and Jean-Louis Gasse, a one time president of computer products at Apple and the founder of Be Inc., the creator of Be operating system.

The business world may see more entrepreneurs coming out of France in coming years, but only because the newest generation of young adults -- sometimes known as millennials or Generation Y -- in general tend to be more interested in start-ups and less keen to work in large institutions.

The young French are no exception: They are much more international than the previous generations and are clearly more prone to starting their own companies.

Another factor may help fuel French entrepreneurship: France traditionally produces a lot of engineers who excel in mathematics and graphics, two skill sets that play into some of the hottest areas in tech right now: gaming and algorithm-driven programming (think Google and other search engines).

But some of the French companies making it in the Valley say they are only now reaping the efforts of years of hard work, aided, in part, by a close-knit network of French executives in the tech industry.

Talend is one of the companies benefiting from such ties. In January it secured $12 million in its third round of investments, going against the economic tide. The round brought in more than just money -- one of the main investors was the global investment giant Balderton Capital, and one of its general partners, Frenchman Bernard Liautaud, joined Talend's board.

The current economic downturn is of course challenging the French companies as well, even though the crisis has been slower to arrive in France. But the biggest advantage the French entrepreneurs might have vis--vis their American counterparts might be the lessons learned from their own culture.

After all, if a start-up has managed to survive the French business culture, making it in the U.S. might not be so hard after all.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/04/08/technology/french_entrepreneurs.fortune/

Welcome to the third-world, mate. :good_job:

Grizzly
04-02-11, 23:09
You have taken my own source?

You know well that I was talking about "nationmaster.com", the source that you have posted. And like I have already said, for your second source (hdr), you take in count the 80-90-2000's. So it is inaccurate with my initial post.

So, sorry to quote you :

You're either senile or can't read properly.

^ lynx ^
04-02-11, 23:12
Italy is no longer a third-world country now, but at the period of this immigration in Germany, yes, we could say that Italy had a lot of "third-world" features or living standards.

These 500.000 immigrants are very recent...



You know well that I was talking about "nationmaster.com", the source that you have posted. And like I have already said, for your second source (hdr), you take in count the 80-90-2000's. So it is inaccurate with my initial post.

That source shows the development data for 70-80-90 and 2000, and in EVERYONE of those decades we are almost at the same level of your country and far above Venezuela. I see that you aren't either senile or can't read... you are plain stupid. :S

Grizzly
04-02-11, 23:14
http://money.cnn.com/2009/04/08/technology/french_entrepreneurs.fortune/

Welcome to the third-world, mate. :good_job:

I'm sorry, but neither Foxnews, nor CNN are "academic" sources.

Carlitos
04-02-11, 23:15
"In the 80 Spain a third world country?, how awful!, maybe if some European countries along with USA had not consented to a dictatorship in Spain for 40 years, many Spanish people should not have emigrated to France to make money, but of course it is better not get into political issues of neighboring countries and let them rot in a 40-year dictatorship, one less competitor.

^ lynx ^
04-02-11, 23:17
I'm sorry, but neither Foxnews, nor CNN are "academic" sources.

Seeing your level of "culture", CNN can certainly feel relieve at that comment. :laughing:

Grizzly
04-02-11, 23:28
These 500.000 immigrants are very recent...

Germany had an Italian immigration in the 50's-60's, but this recent immigration does not seem to be an economical immigration, like it was for the Portugal, Italy or Spain in France between 1850 and the 80's.


we are almost at the same level of your country and far above Venezuela.

Not according to nationmaster, your own source. I'm sorry.

BTW, I won't comment all you picked-up charts, because I have said that I won't make a battle of numbers. The indicators can be very different from a study to another. The facts are that Spanish people had to move to flee the misery. It is not my opinion, it is the History. If you don't know this word, you can begin by this :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History


If you can't do so, it is that you aren't either senile or can't read, but just plain stupid.

Grizzly
04-02-11, 23:30
"In the 80 Spain a third world country?

No, before the 80's. Spain has been admitted in the UE in 1986, and if I don't mistake, was candidate after the fall of the dictature.



if some European countries along with USA had not consented to a dictatorship in Spain for 40 years

Irrelevant. Spanish immigration in France has began from about the mid-19th century.

^ lynx ^
04-02-11, 23:46
Not according to nationmaster, your own source. I'm sorry.

BTW, I won't comment all you picked-up charts, because I have said that I won't make a battle of numbers. The indicators can be very different from a study to another. The facts are that Spanish people had to move to flee the misery. It is not my opinion, it is the History. If you don't know this word, you can begin by this :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History

I've already explained to you the data from nation master. And I'm going to repeat AGAIN: I have never denyed that many spaniards migrated by that time, I have denyed your statement about Spain being a almost third-world country before the 80's, did you understand now or are you trisomic?

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/4495/pantallazo1zh.png

The data showed in the HDI charts shows that Spain was no near the third world... we were far above Venezuela and all those countries you took from nationmaster, and practically tied with your country.

PS- Italians have migrated to Germany far beyond the 50's and 60's... Just like frenchs are migrating now to the USA.

Grizzly
04-02-11, 23:59
I've already explained to you the data from nation master. And I'm going to repeat AGAIN: I have never denyed that many spaniards migrated by that time, I have denyed your statement about Spain being a almost third-world country before the 80's, did you understand now or are you trisomic?

And I have already answered you : the fact that according to your own source (become now a trap for you...), countries like Libya, Trinidad and Tobago, Urugay or Jamaica... were before Spain in the 60's show clearly that Spain could almost be considered as a third-word country. And the fact that adult people in all classes of a country need to move in the foreign countries to find work and money is a typical third-world feature. It is not outrageous. Just facts. Did you understand now, or are you trisomic ?



PS- Italians have migrated to Germany far beyond the 50's and 60's... Just like frenchs are migrating now to the USA.

No, the first real waves of the Italian immigrants were in the 50-60's, to work in the industrial basins (especially Ruhr). I don't know about the recent immigration, but the first is clearly economical. Nothing to do with some young French from the upper-classes who try to increase professional experience in US for their CV, and come back to France.

^ lynx ^
05-02-11, 00:02
And I have already answered you : the fact that countries like Libya, Trinidad and Tobago, Urugay or Jamaica... were before Spain show clearly that Spain could almost be considered as a third-word country. And the fact that people of a country need to move in the foreign countries to find work and money is a typical third-world feature. It is not outrageous. Just facts. Did you understand now, or are you trisomic ?

None of those countries were above Spain in Humand Development. Again, there are frenchs migrating to the USA now... so by your logic your country is also in the third-world. And again, Kuwait, Qatar, and United Arab Emirates are above France in gdp per capita now.. so I guess that makes all of our countries part of the third world.


No, the first real waves of the Italian immigrants were in the 50-60's, to work in the industrial basins (especially Ruhr). I don't know about the recent immigration, but the first is clearly economical. Nothing to do with some young French from the upper-classes who try to increase professional experience in US for their CV, and come back to France.

The first waves yes... but not the lastest. And those young frenchs? No, they aren't going back to France. Read the article again.

Wilhelm
05-02-11, 00:05
There are far more Brits and Germans in Spain than the other way around, so what ? This is not a criteria for being a third-world country.

Carlitos
05-02-11, 00:07
No, before the 80's. Spain has been admitted in the UE in 1986, and if I don't mistake, was candidate after the fall of the dictature.




Irrelevant. Spanish immigration in France has began from about the mid-19th century.

Since 1814, with the departure of the French style, started the phenomenon of exile or emigration policy due to political repression or broader groups of Spanish. The following were liberal groups, whose fate also was France or England


The civil war of 1936-1939 gave rise to the Republican exile incomparably more numerous, that was distributed to Europe and Latin America.

Spanish emigration to France.

Causes of Source Areas

It was a popular destination for migrants. In 1911, 100,000 lived in France Spanish.
During World War 1 work performed migrants who could not attend the French for being drafted into the army. Between 1915 and 1919 moved 300,000, of which only half returned to Spain. Spanish In 1920, 254,000 lived in France.


Source areas

Areas near the border: Basque Country, Navarra and Catalonia.

Galicia. During the war rather than move to Argentina went to France.


What Mrs Merkel said these days: we must work together and be supportive.

I do not offend their words, because Spain is a country that has influenced and helped create the world we live in today and a few years, decades or centuries of hard times are nothing compared to what we have been and will not we call slaves and revival of our ashes a phoenix; and of course with the help of France and England will be difficult in any case with our German friends, who have always been closer to us.

^ lynx ^
05-02-11, 00:12
GDP per capita (by country):

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.

Wow check out this: Qatar on the top of the list, Kuwait over the United States... and Equatorial Guinea over Denmark and Germany to name a few!!!! :laughing:

Looks like the planet is really fuc**d up. We are all in the third-world... according with this ignorant's logic. :laughing:

Grizzly
05-02-11, 00:17
None of those countries were above Spain in Humand Development.

Just see the charts as from 1960.



Again, there are frenchs migrating to the USA now... so by your logic your country is also in the third-world.

I have already said that a professionnal experience in US for some upper-classes young peoples is not an economical immigration. Nothing to do with the millions of Italians, Portuguese or Spanish immigration waves.


The first wave yes... but not the lastest.

The first were economical (poverty), since the 60's. The 500 000 that you have talked about are probably the same and their sons and great-sons.

http://www.migrationinformation.org/Profiles/display.cfm?id=235


And those young frenchs? No, they aren't going back to France. Read the article again.

They are minority and don't represent the French youngness.

Grizzly
05-02-11, 00:18
There are far more Brits and Germans in Spain than the other way around, so what ? This is not a criteria for being a third-world country.

They search sun, not money...

Grizzly
05-02-11, 00:20
Since 1814, with the departure of the French style, started the phenomenon of exile or emigration policy due to political repression or broader groups of Spanish. The following were liberal groups, whose fate also was France or England...

You are talking about a political emigration, not economical.

Grizzly
05-02-11, 00:23
GDP per capita (by country):

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.

404 Not found. You find a source, and you want me to demonstrate its consistency ?

Wilhelm
05-02-11, 00:26
Spain has : 400.000 British and 200.000 germans while,
Germany or UK have so many little spaniards that they are not even counted.

^ lynx ^
05-02-11, 00:29
Just see the charts as from 1960.

Just see the same charts as from today: Qatar, Kuwait and United Arab Emirates are above France, thus (according to your logic) you are a 3rd world country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita


I have already said that a professionnal experience in US for some upper-classes young peoples is not an economical immigration.

That's not what the article says.


The first were economical (poverty), since the 60's. The 500 000 that you have talked about are probably the same and their sons and great-sons.

http://www.migrationinformation.org/Profiles/display.cfm?id=235

False. The italian migration to Germany is still very recent... in fact, there's even an important community of italians workers in Spain.


They are minority and don't represent the French youngness.

That's your personal not opinion not a fact. As usual...

Grizzly
05-02-11, 00:34
Spain has : 400.000 British and 200.000 germans while,
Germany or UK have so many little spaniards that they are not even counted.

Already answered :there are several kinds of immigrations. Economical, political, retirement and comfort...The subject was about the first.

Grizzly
05-02-11, 00:41
Just see the same charts as from today: Qatar, Kuwait and United Arab Emirates are above France, thus (according to your logic) you are a 3rd world country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita)

Quatar or Kuweit are not 3rd world countries, not even in the 60's, in the contrary of Trinidad and Tobago, Jamaica or Lybia...



That's not what the article says.

CNN is not an academic source.




The italian migration to Germany is still very recent... in fact, there's even an important community of italians workers in Spain.

I don't deny it, but my point was the Italian immigration of the 60's was an economical one.




That's your personal not opinion not a fact. As usual...

If you have an academic source (and not US tabloids) showing that millions of young French flee in US to find work and to start definitively a new life, you can post it.

Wilhelm
05-02-11, 00:42
Already answered :there are several kinds of immigrations. Economical, political, retirement and comfort...The subject was about the first.
Sure. You have still to explain to us what is your criteria of third-world country for Spain before the 70's ?? Before you post stupid comments better think before.

Grizzly
05-02-11, 00:44
Sure. You have still to explain to us what is your criteria of third-world country for Spain before the 70's ?? Before you post stupid comments better think before.

Just read before. And you have probably won the award of the most stupid comment of the thread by including Iceland in European Union...

Wilhelm
05-02-11, 00:45
Quatar or Kuweit are not 3rd world countries, not even in the 60's, in the contrary of Trinidad and Tobago, Jamaica or Lybia...
Guinea Equatorial is a third-world counry and it's GDP per capita is higher than France.

^ lynx ^
05-02-11, 00:46
Quatar or Kuweit are not 3rd world countries, not even in the 60's, in the contrary of Trinidad and Tobago, Jamaica or Lybia...

Yes, they are. Qatar, Kuwait and United Arab Emirates are full of people living in misery.. they just have natural resources that make a FEW very rich.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/Third_world_countries_map_world_2.PNG/800px-Third_world_countries_map_world_2.PNG


CNN is not an academic source.

CNN has more credit than your incoherent logic.


If you have an academic source (and not US tabloids) showing that millions of young French flee in US to find work and to start definitively a new life, you can post it.

CNN is not a tabloid, is a reliable source.


I don't deny it, but my point was the Italian immigration of the 60's was an economical one.

Italians kept migrating for jobs after that decade.

Wilhelm
05-02-11, 00:48
Just read before. And you have probably won the award of the most stupid comment of the thread by including Iceland in European Union...
Quote me when I said Iceland is part of the EU ? It's part of Europe and the CEE not the EU

Grizzly
05-02-11, 00:52
Guinea Equatorial is a third-world counry and it's GDP per capita is higher than France.

Modern feature, due to fiscal evasion for the immatriculation of the boats, and oil. In 1965, this country was ranked 68...

Grizzly
05-02-11, 00:56
CNN is not a tabloid, is a reliable source.

I wait for a source showing Millions of French (or hundreds of thousands) fleeing in US to find work and money and to definitively start a life in this country.




Italians kept migrating for jobs after that decade.

I did not check up, but if it is right, it reinforces my point : an economical immigration.

^ lynx ^
05-02-11, 00:57
Quote me when I said Iceland is part of the EU ? It's part of Europe and the CEE not the EU

He seems to have a worrying tendency to misunderstanding... he's certainly not very intelligent.

^ lynx ^
05-02-11, 00:59
I wait for a source showing Millions of French (or hundreds of thousands) fleeing in US to find work and money and to definitively start a life in this country.

I already posted it in the previous page. They are flying to California. You're in denial like a 4 years old kid.


I did not check up, but if it is right, it reinforces my point : an economical immigration.

Yes, a recent economical immigration. Thus, in your own retarded logic, Italy should be considered a 3rd world country.

Grizzly
05-02-11, 01:06
Quote me when I said Iceland is part of the EU ? It's part of Europe and the CEE not the EU


Same with Ireland or Iceland.

BTW, Iceland is not part of CEE either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community#Members

Grizzly
05-02-11, 01:07
He seems to have a worrying tendency to misunderstanding... he's certainly not very intelligent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greatest_common_divisor

Grizzly
05-02-11, 01:12
I already posted it in the previous page. They are flying to California. You're in denial like a 4 years old kid.

No, this "source" does not talk about millions of French. It just put in relief some upper-classes who start business. I still wait for your academic source...


Yes, a recent economical immigration. Thus, in your own retarded logic, Italy should be considered a 3rd world country.

If they migrate for jobs (even I dubt that after the 60's, they were so numerous), it's an economical migration. But I wait for your source too. You like to put assertions with very few sources (oh, yes, CNN and Foxnews...).

Wilhelm
05-02-11, 01:18
BTW, Iceland is not part of CEE either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community#Members
Lol you are certainly not very intelligent. We where talking about how Spain supposedly was a third-world country before the 70's (which was not part of the EU than), that's when I mentioned that Irelaand or Iceland, which are european counries, were also very poor before the 70's. I never said that Iceland was part of the EU, that is your own interpretation, don't put words in my mouth.

Grizzly
05-02-11, 01:28
you are certainly not very intelligent.


he's certainly not very intelligent.

Hum...



We where talking about how Spain supposedly was a third-world country before the 70's (which was not part of the EU than), that's when I mentioned that Irelaand or Iceland, which are european counries, were also very poor before the 70's. I never said that Iceland was part of the EU, that is your own interpretation, don't put words in my mouth.

I was saying that before integration of Spain in Europe (in the 80's), its living standards could be considered almost as third-world ones. So, if your answer is "same thing for Ireland and Iceland", it means that you put them in the whole of my assertion.

BTW, your last one is wrong again : Iceland was ranked 6 in 1965...

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gdp_percap-economy-gdp-per-capita&date=1965

Wilhelm
05-02-11, 01:31
Hum...
I was saying that before integration of Spain in Europe (in the 80's), its living standards could be considered almost as third-world ones. So, if your answer is "same thing for Ireland and Iceland", it means that you put them in the whole of my assertion.

BTW, your last one is again wrong : Iceland was ranked 6 in 1965...
The standard of living of Spain in the 60's/70's/80's was far from being third-world. It was first-world actually. We are still waiting for your evidence.

Carlitos
05-02-11, 01:36
The Spanish emigration to France in any case have been massive, is a weak argument to try to prove that Spain was a third world country, very controversial term especially if it relates only to the degree of industrialization of a country perhaps Spain was less industrialized than neighboring countries, but in any case, Spain has been a third world country.

Grizzly
05-02-11, 01:39
The standard of living of Spain in the 60's/70's/80's was far from being third-world. It was first-world actually. We are still waiting for your evidence.

A country living in a dictature and where people where flee misery and political repression does not really belong to the "first world".

Carlitos
05-02-11, 01:43
I wonder why Europe agreed a 40-year dictatorship in a neighboring country?, I believe that some neighboring countries of Spain were concerned that Spain will sleep the deep sleep of oblivion and isolation.

Grizzly
05-02-11, 01:43
The Spanish emigration to France in any case have been massive, is a weak argument to try to prove that Spain was a third world country, very controversial term especially if it relates only to the degree of industrialization of a country perhaps Spain was less industrialized than neighboring countries, but in any case, Spain has been a third world country.

Not the immigration in itself, but the fact that is was essentially an economical immigration. Focusing on the expression "third world", or other litterature debates do not change the facts.

Carlitos
05-02-11, 01:52
Not the immigration in itself, but the fact that is was essentially an economical immigration. Focusing on the expression "third world", or other litterature debates do not change the facts.

It was mostly politics and political disaster leads to economic disaster, but in no case was a mass migration and perhaps the French view or have it sent to you are of a Spain in the third world, based on a few migrants, less industrialization of Spain in relation to their country, but Spain is not just living from fishing and agriculture, of course we were industrialized in the 18th century, 19 blast furnaces, sugar factories, textile, food, etc. what in the 80 were less industrialized than France does not mean that we were a third world country, there were many things to fix, but daring to describe Spain as a third world country is just a symptom of fear of a potential competitor We're old neighbors and the history is there, only the French can fool an American talking about these things in Spain, no one else in Europe are going to cheat by saying that Spain was a third world country is not believed that lie and you the French.

julia90
05-02-11, 04:21
FRENCH: they are considered and nicknamed by media and local population as: "Cugini d'Oltralpe" or "Transalpini" = Transalpine's Cousins.
There is a high rivality on soccer between us and them, and we are higly motivated to defeat them on soccer matches.
The people are considered stylish, elegant, sofisticated, as their language is.
We consider Corsicans to be akin to us, as Provencals too.
We think some of them are arrogant, and we know there is discrimination of italians in France, but i comprehend this because the italians they know (immigration) are mainly southern italians, that have sometimes unacceptable behaviours.
The cusine "Nouvelle cusine", is different than our, it's more stylish-elaborated, our cousine is more abundant on portions, it different, but i think french cusine is one of the best in the world.
GERMANY
Meticolous, crazy, stiff, productive, high standatd of life, powerful economy, a great place to work, they know how to organize things; loyal people.
There is discrimination of italians in Germany mainly for the same reasons as in France.
Germans love our beaches, our climate, and love to spend summer vacation here (more so in the past thought...)
Great beers, sausages. Great Cars.
SPAIN
They are more openly cheerful than us, but their cherfulness is showed off, flaunted and feigned, maybe that's why many italians love spanish people.
Sometimes they are arrogant, but anyway i think it's funny to be with them expecially with those who are cheerful.
There is competition with italians, mainly on their part, but this is growing also among italians, they secretely want to be superior to us; we don't care about it, because we are usually sincere and we show of our true thinkings.
A great place to party.
The cusine is mediterranean also, but a bit fat, and less differenciated and variated than italian cusine.
they love to take things slow, the work slows, instead we rush more.
We like the language.
The climate and the places are beautiful.
The people are considered (maybe sometimes erroneanly?) similar to us for the character and fisical looks.

SCANDINAVIA
The girls are blonde, hot and angelic and the wet dreams of many brunet wog italian men, who think there the sex is more frequent among non-partners.
The state is very socialistic inspired.
People love to tan; great viking cars (Volvo).
A bit cold with frequent snow, saunas.

ALBANIA/ROMANIA
Lands of immigrants in italy, crooks people (especially the men, obviously), Romanian women are famous to work as old people nannies, both roamnian and albanian men are famous as carpenters.
Albanians firstly arrived by rubber dinghies in apulia in 1991 with the foall of Hoxa communism (Hoxa was famous in his radio Tirana, that you could listen also from italy, to tell that italian economy was a disaster and that albanian model of economy was productive, he also built walls, fortresses and stronghold because he told his people italian would invade albania).
Obvoiusly not all rumenians or albanians are criminals, and i have myself some romanian and albanian good (behaviour) acquaintances (to give you an idea those who are criminals are a bit like neapolitans camorra criminals). Albanians men are also known to be cocky men with local girls (i remember many cia' bela.. when sometimes i walked alone along the streets or with a group of female friends; like north african men use to do too). Obviously there are as many correct albanian and romenian people, good also at school, serious workers etc.
Generally romanians and albanians know to speak a good italian when they arrive in italy. Expecially albanians because in albania they are used to watch italian television and programmes



NB: I WILL CONTINUE AND UPDATE THIS POST ON THE FOLLOWING DAYS, WITH MORE OTHER COUNTRIES , AND MORE DETAILLED OPINIONS.

^ lynx ^
05-02-11, 12:46
The cusine is mediterranean also, but a bit fat, and less differenciated and variated than italian cusine.

This couldn't be more far from reality. Italian cuisine is purely mediterranean, spanish cuisine is Atlanto-mediterranean and much more variated than the italian one. In fact, Spain is culturally much more complex than Italy.


There is competition with italians, mainly on their part, but this is growing also among italians, they secretely want to be superior to us; we don't care about it, because we are usually sincere and we show of our true thinkings.

If you're talking about football, then that's fairly correct but if you're talking in a general sense... Spaniards only want to be superior to other spaniards: Catalonia vs Madrid, Valencia vs Madrid vs Catalonia, etc. etc. That's the way we are (sadly). We don't really give a **** about the rest.

I don't know why we would want to be superior to Italy in the first place when we don't really see you as "something to surpass". Yes, you're still being a bigger economy than us (Italy is more populated than Spain), but our view on Italy is mainly about: Ridiculous populism (guys like Berlusconi doesn't really give you a good name), chaotic corruption at the highest burocratic level (again Berlusconi and friends), and a profoundly sexist and ultra-catholic state (we are far a more atheist, and thus democratic, state than you and spanish female are far more integrated in the economic and political life).

We don't really see Italy as a role-model, and certainly we don't feel like that we have to surpass you, on the contrary, we see Italy as something we have to avoid to become.

Anyways, it was a funny read overall... I had no idea that italians had so many misconceptions about us and I know a lot of italians working here.

Greetings and good night (in your case 2:21).

Edit- By the way in Spain, we use to say that argentinians are "italians who speak spanish", this perfectly sums up our view on both nationalities and countries.

Carlitos
05-02-11, 16:57
Greetings to Italy, a country without prejudice and although France is farther away, we better understood.

I see that almost everyone believes that we take life slowly and little work, but it is quite topical, it works well and fast in Spain, the problem is on the schedule, are absolutely horrific, from there ask for help from the Union Mrs Merkel European to compel Spain to change working hours, trade, those times are extremely unbearable, but in Spain nobody wants to address the issue.

Regulus
05-02-11, 17:17
- By the way in Spain, we use to say that argentinians are "italians who speak spanish", this perfectly sums up our view on both nationalities and countries.

The Italian influence on the Spanish spoken in Argentina and Uruguay, particularly in the Rio Plata region is almost overwhelming even to a person like me who, until I began working, was almost purely school-taught in the US.

With my work, I often run into people who speak Spanish or have a hard time speaking English. There are only a few of us readily available to help. Since High School, I have gotten pretty good at figuring out what region a Spanish speaker is from, and can usually adjust my spoken Spanish to reflect the slightly different pronunciations or styles. Those from that area of Argentina and Uruguay actually even sound like they are speaking Italian. The intonation, especially in the way the last words(s) in a statement are almost sung, is enough to cause one to assume that they may be recent immigrants from Italy to Latin America.


Also, here is the US one will meet Argentines who moved here with names Like Jose Graziano, etc. LOL.

Carlitos
05-02-11, 17:33
For Spanish Argentines are not considered "Italians who speak Spanish, " as appears to the Spanish Argentina as a country with its own identity, though we know they have different origins, they are not associated with a unique Italian origin and idiosyncrasies rather Argentine .

Regulus
05-02-11, 17:41
Please don't take this as an insult as your written English is clearly better than my written Spanish, but I wasn't certain about what you were communicating in your last post.

Wilhelm
05-02-11, 18:04
Ridiculous populism (guys like Berlusconi doesn't really give you a good name), chaotic corruption at the highest burocratic level (again Berlusconi and friends), and a profoundly sexist and ultra-catholic state
And obviously Mafia.
greetings.

Carlitos
06-02-11, 00:00
Please don't take this as an insult as your written English is clearly better than my written Spanish, but I wasn't certain about what you were communicating in your last post.


My English writing is google translator.

Regulus
06-02-11, 01:29
My English writing is google translator.

Ok, let me see if I can do this.....

Carltos, esta diciendo Ud. que los Espanolos no crean (o piensan) que Los Argentinos son como Italianos quien hablan Espanol?


I hope that my attempt was not futile.

Carlitos
06-02-11, 03:07
Ok, let me see if I can do this.....

Carltos, esta diciendo Ud. que los Espanolos no crean (o piensan) que Los Argentinos son como Italianos quien hablan Espanol?


I hope that my attempt was not futile.



Exacto, es lo que digo. Muchísimos españoles emigraron a Argentina, entre 1900 y 1930 emigraron algo más de tres millones de españoles(3.253.448) según las cifras oficiales, aunque las investigaciones recientes calculan que alcanzarían casi los cuatro millones y medio (4.360.387).

Además del pasado histórico de España en América, España mantiene un acuerdo con Argentina:

LA FIRMA DEL ACUERDO AUNOS EN 1942 ENTRE ARGENTINA Y ESPAÑA DIO PRINCIPIO A UNA ESTRECHA COLABORACION COMERCIAL.

De modo que lo último que piensa un español sobre Argentina es que son italianos que hablan español, sabemos que hubo una fuerte emigración italiana, pero también española, norte de Europa, e.t.c. y vemos a los argentinos como argentinos, con diferentes orígenes, pero no como italianos que hablan español, me parece absurdo y no sé de dónde habrá salido esa percepción, que no es el sentimiento que de los argentinos se tiene en España.

Regulus
06-02-11, 03:58
Ok, le entiendo. Yo creo que La Rio Plata es la region sola que tenia bastante immigracion desde Italia para haciendo mucho influencia en la lengua.
Por ejemplo, "Sho quiero un cigarisho" o la palabra "bambino" para un bebe.

La mayoria de los Argentinos probalamente no hablan Espanol en el mismo tipo.
Escribiendo Espanol con una computador es muy dificil para mi. No peudo pensar en Espanol y encontrar las letras en el mismo vez. Mientras yo escribia este carta, tuve un accidente y escribi dos palabras en Ingles. Yo casi mando la carta con los errores.
Gracias para su paciencia.

Carlitos
06-02-11, 04:49
Ok, le entiendo. Yo creo que El Rio de la Plata es la regin con ms inmigracin italiana y donde el idioma espaol se habr visto ms influenciado.
Por ejemplo, "Sho quiero un cigarisho" o la palabra "bambino" para un beb.

La mayora de los argentinos probablemente no hablan el mismo tipo de espaol.
Para m es muy difcil escribir espaol con una computadora. No puedo pensar en espaol y encontrar las letras a la misma vez. Mientras yo escriba este carta tuve un error y escrib dos palabras en ingls, casi mando la carta con los errores.
Gracias para su paciencia.



Tampoco todos los espaoles hablan es mismo tipo de espaol, una cosa es el idioma y otra el habla. Debe suceder lo mismo en su pas, que vara el habla de un estado a otro, quiz incluso de un pueblo a otro dentro de un mismo estado y sin embargo todos hablan en ingls.

Por parte de mi abuelo materno en La Plata mi madre tiene unas primas, hace unos aos vinieron a Espaa de visita y tenan un buen espaol y en ningn momento utilizaron ninguna palabra italiana, pero es posible que suceda como usted dice, el propio espaol de Espaa utiliza anglicismos y galicismos.

^ lynx ^
06-02-11, 14:29
Even argentinians themself use to say "we are italians who speak spanish".

Regulus, I suggest you to not lose your time with mexiCarlitos. He's too much used to write nonsense about Spain and he's too much used to write it at a very strange hours (2:00 AM to 6:00 AM according to the spanish timezone) very often.

Greetings.

Sybilla
07-02-11, 13:11
The way Italians see you...

Germans: Germans are the foreign people with whom Italians have had more contacts during history, but also the one that have been less understood. Italians think Germans are too precise, often almost maniacal, that they are all blondes and that are unfriendly and eat krauts, wurstel and potetos only. Italians also think most Germans are nazis and naughty and become friendly only when they are drunken of beer.

English are considered to be cool, to have handsome men, to wear extremely bad and to be open minded, their cuisine lacks almost everything but they have beautiful music. They are definitely well seen.

French are considered to be snob and to wear well, but also to have many things in common with Italians. They speak a beautiful language and women are very elegant. We consider them as cousins, but we also dispute very easy with them becouse we both have harsh temperament and are too similar: high fashion, good food, rich history and when we come to football France in the worst enemy. Too similarity leads to competitivity.

Spaniards are considered as an exaggerate people: very open spirited, loud and friendly, even more than Italians. Half Italy adores them an other half dislike them in favour of peoples considered more serious, like Germans or English. Sangria, paeilla, corrida, handsome men.

Greeks the brothers of southern Italians. Once my grandmom told me an imagine that I ignored of Greeks: <<Greek men make their women work becouse they are lazy and want only to enjoy the life>>. Classic culture. Italians respect Greeks very much, we think that without them world would be very different, but we are pretty disappointed about their economy. Anyway when Greece collapsed the common sense told us that helping Greece was a due as regard to what they have done for Europe in the past.

Sybilla
07-02-11, 13:24
This couldn't be more far from reality. Italian cuisine is purely mediterranean, spanish cuisine is Atlanto-mediterranean and much more variated than the italian one. In fact, Spain is culturally much more complex than Italy.



If you're talking about football, then that's fairly correct but if you're talking in a general sense... Spaniards only want to be superior to other spaniards: Catalonia vs Madrid, Valencia vs Madrid vs Catalonia, etc. etc. That's the way we are (sadly). We don't really give a **** about the rest.

I don't know why we would want to be superior to Italy in the first place when we don't really see you as "something to surpass". Yes, you're still being a bigger economy than us (Italy is more populated than Spain), but our view on Italy is mainly about: Ridiculous populism (guys like Berlusconi doesn't really give you a good name), chaotic corruption at the highest burocratic level (again Berlusconi and friends), and a profoundly sexist and ultra-catholic state (we are far a more atheist, and thus democratic, state than you and spanish female are far more integrated in the economic and political life).

We don't really see Italy as a role-model, and certainly we don't feel like that we have to surpass you, on the contrary, we see Italy as something we have to avoid to become.

Anyways, it was a funny read overall... I had no idea that italians had so many misconceptions about us and I know a lot of italians working here.

Greetings and good night (in your case 2:21).

Edit- By the way in Spain, we use to say that argentinians are "italians who speak spanish", this perfectly sums up our view on both nationalities and countries.

What ignorance, Northern Italy is Alpine not Mediterranean and their cuisine is derived from the French and German one, LOL!!!!
EPIC FAILURE!

Listen, I really don't want to waste my time with you, but Italy has nothing to learn from Spain. Our economy is better not becouse we are more people but becouse we have more industries, otherwise, following your concept, India should be richer than us. Strage way to think :thinking:
Or do you think that also Germany and France are richer than Spain ONLY becouse they have more people?

Second, we have also the highest IQ of Europe, more nobel prizes than Spain, more variety in cuisine (probably you know only pizza and pasta, but we have an infinity of dishes some of the inspired to the French cuisine, other to the Greek and other to the German, so, make a tour in a good site of Italian cuisine and learn something).

Third, Italian fashion is considered to be the best in the world together with the French, we have Ferrari, Ducati, Lamborghini, ecc.ecc.

Even Argentinians, the only true European country in Southern American, loves to underline the way they are Italian and to regret the Spanish culture/ancestry.

It seems to me that Spaniards suffer some inferiority complexes towards Italy. I've noticed that becouse on forums Spaniars the first thing to do is insulting Italians. Pathetic and sad behavour.

As I don't mean to offend Spain as a whole but only this idiot, I stress the fact that Italians, as a nation, love Spain and consider Spaniards our brothers. So, very strange behavour the Lynx's one...

Sybilla
07-02-11, 13:44
And I have already answered you : the fact that according to your own source (become now a trap for you...), countries like Libya, Trinidad and Tobago, Urugay or Jamaica... were before Spain in the 60's show clearly that Spain could almost be considered as a third-word country. And the fact that adult people in all classes of a country need to move in the foreign countries to find work and money is a typical third-world feature. It is not outrageous. Just facts. Did you understand now, or are you trisomic ?




No, the first real waves of the Italian immigrants were in the 50-60's, to work in the industrial basins (especially Ruhr). I don't know about the recent immigration, but the first is clearly economical. Nothing to do with some young French from the upper-classes who try to increase professional experience in US for their CV, and come back to France.

Italians today migrate far less than before and not for economical reason: we can find work also here of course, but we are a travelling people, that's the truth, we like to know other cultures. Some sectors are more productive in other countries than here and vice versa: for exemple an engineer goes to Germany becouse salaries are higher and the country is close to Italy, but if he wants he can find work also here.

I know some Italians who live in Spain and they are planning to go back to Italy becouse although the lifestyle is cool in Spain the wages are low and people don't arrive at the end of the month.

In Europe the only worthing economies are France, Germany, UK and Italy and the small northern European countries like Luxemburg, the Netherlands and Scandinavia.

Regulus
07-02-11, 15:47
Even argentinians themself use to say "we are italians who speak spanish".

Regulus, I suggest you to not lose your time with mexiCarlitos. He's too much used to write nonsense about Spain and he's too much used to write it at a very strange hours (2:00 AM to 6:00 AM according to the spanish timezone) very often.

Greetings.


From my side, I only request that you also have patience with my atrociously written Spanish. I decided to give writing in Spanish a try since Carlitos told me that he was using google translator. I thought that my points would not be translated properly if I used the google system also.

Dean
07-02-11, 15:53
What ignorance, Northern Italy is Alpine not Mediterranean and their cuisine is derived from the French and German one, LOL!!!!
EPIC FAILURE!

Listen, I really don't want to waste my time with you, but Italy has nothing to learn from Spain. Our economy is better not becouse we are more people but becouse we have more industries, otherwise, following your concept, India should be richer than us. Strage way to think :thinking:
Or do you think that also Germany and France are richer than Spain ONLY becouse they have more people?

Second, we have also the highest IQ of Europe, more nobel prizes than Spain, more variety in cuisine (probably you know only pizza and pasta, but we have an infinity of dishes some of the inspired to the French cuisine, other to the Greek and other to the German, so, make a tour in a good site of Italian cuisine and learn something).

Third, Italian fashion is considered to be the best in the world together with the French, we have Ferrari, Ducati, Lamborghini, ecc.ecc.

Even Argentinians, the only true European country in Southern American, loves to underline the way they are Italian and to regret the Spanish culture/ancestry.

It seems to me that Spaniards suffer some inferiority complexes towards Italy. I've noticed that becouse on forums Spaniars the first thing to do is insulting Italians. Pathetic and sad behavour.

As I don't mean to offend Spain as a whole but only this idiot, I stress the fact that Italians, as a nation, love Spain and consider Spaniards our brothers. So, very strange behavour the Lynx's one...

I think that you didn't understood lynx's message. He only wanted to say that we spaniards DO NOT see Italy as a model country. He DID NOT said that Italy should learn from spain. Where did you read that??

As always, you (the italians) read the message and get offended and you think, as always again, that we must "suffer some inferiority complex", but you should read again your message and see who wrote about "competition". It was not a spaniard. And it is your message the one who shows some strange inferiority complex, not lynx's one, when you write about IQs and feraris. It seems that you got offended because lynx said that we do not have italy as a model country.

I'm sorry, but this is the pure truth. Italy it is not an admired country in spain. If you get offended, it is your problem. Lynx only replied to this phrase:

There is competition with italians, mainly on their part...

that is, of course, not true. We do not want to compite with you because when we look at you, we see our own problems (the good things too). Is like seeing yourself in a mirror, in some way, but the reflex shown by this mirror is even worse in some points. Like lynx said, "we don't really give a **** about the rest". The exception could be Germany and some other european countries.

But, however, italians are overall very well considered among spaniards. Because we see the good points too in that reflex.

Have a nice day.

^ lynx ^
07-02-11, 21:03
What ignorance, Northern Italy is Alpine not Mediterranean and their cuisine is derived from the French and German one, LOL!!!!
EPIC FAILURE!

Listen, I really don't want to waste my time with you, but Italy has nothing to learn from Spain. Our economy is better not becouse we are more people but becouse we have more industries, otherwise, following your concept, India should be richer than us. Strage way to think :thinking:
Or do you think that also Germany and France are richer than Spain ONLY becouse they have more people?

Second, we have also the highest IQ of Europe, more nobel prizes than Spain, more variety in cuisine (probably you know only pizza and pasta, but we have an infinity of dishes some of the inspired to the French cuisine, other to the Greek and other to the German, so, make a tour in a good site of Italian cuisine and learn something).

Third, Italian fashion is considered to be the best in the world together with the French, we have Ferrari, Ducati, Lamborghini, ecc.ecc.

Even Argentinians, the only true European country in Southern American, loves to underline the way they are Italian and to regret the Spanish culture/ancestry.

It seems to me that Spaniards suffer some inferiority complexes towards Italy. I've noticed that becouse on forums Spaniars the first thing to do is insulting Italians. Pathetic and sad behavour.

As I don't mean to offend Spain as a whole but only this idiot, I stress the fact that Italians, as a nation, love Spain and consider Spaniards our brothers. So, very strange behavour the Lynx's one...

I never said "Italy should learn from Spain", ragazza... I said that "we don't see Italy as a role model, but something we have to avoid to become". And I stand behind my words, sorry if my words hurt you darling but I'm merely stating A FACT and I'm not going to apologize for telling the truth. Italy is not admired in Spain. Life with it.

So relax, take a deep breath and think before posting, because you're embarrasing yourself with this post. It was Julia90 (an italian poster) who brought this stupid Spain vs Italy thing into the topic, no spaniard said a single word about your country until then... that should give some clues about who may be obssesed about the other's country. In Spain we don't waste our time thinking about your country, ragazza.

Ciao.

PS- Oh, and it was Julia90 who suggested that italian cuisine was mediterranean in the first place, btw.

Mzungu mchagga
07-02-11, 21:35
The way Italians see you...

Germans: Germans are the foreign people with whom Italians have had more contacts during history, but also the one that have been less understood. Italians think Germans are too precise, often almost maniacal, that they are all blondes and that are unfriendly and eat krauts, wurstel and potetos only. Italians also think most Germans are nazis and naughty and become friendly only when they are drunken of beer.


Hey, that's not true! I also become friendly when I'm drunk of other stuff than beer. Or when I'm stoned! :cool-v:

In Germany we have a saying: "Germans love Italians without respecting them. Italians respect Germans without loving them." I think this sentence puts it to the point. However, sometimes I think only with Italians this attitude becomes really obvious, but could apply also to every other European nation instead of Italy.

Ironically, I was just about to open a new thread about Nazi Germans soon, a topic I just realized wasn't mentioned yet on this forum.

Reinaert
07-02-11, 22:49
Germans usually don't get more friendly when they are pissed. They start to whine about their lost territories in the east.. ;)

But nothing wrong with the young Germans, when they are sober. ;)

And please, don't start a thread about Nazi's.
It makes me puke.
Today there are living more Nazis in America and England, then there are living in Germany.

Carlitos
07-02-11, 23:40
Spain loves Italy and the woman Spanish love Italian men, have a weakness for them. The fact that Spanish cuisine in the past has not achieved international fame who reached the French or Italian cuisine is that Spain did not know in the past sold better, perhaps because other issues prevailed in the country and we were not open Europe or the world for political reasons, but today there are already many Spanish chef who have earned national and international recognition.

julia90
08-02-11, 01:27
If you're talking about football, then that's fairly correct but if you're talking in a general sense... Spaniards only want to be superior to other spaniards: Catalonia vs Madrid, Valencia vs Madrid vs Catalonia, etc. etc. That's the way we are (sadly). We don't really give a **** about the rest.

I don't know why we would want to be superior to Italy in the first place when we don't really see you as "something to surpass". Yes, you're still being a bigger economy than us (Italy is more populated than Spain), but our view on Italy is mainly about: Ridiculous populism (guys like Berlusconi doesn't really give you a good name), chaotic corruption at the highest burocratic level (again Berlusconi and friends), and a profoundly sexist and ultra-catholic state (we are far a more atheist, and thus democratic, state than you and spanish female are far more integrated in the economic and political life).

We don't really see Italy as a role-model, and certainly we don't feel like that we have to surpass you, on the contrary, we see Italy as something we have to avoid to become.

I didn't mean to offend you, that was only my impression based on people online, and when i visited Madrid.
The food seemed to me, not much varied (if you compare it with italian or french cusine).. all i ate was Ovo Revueltos (such thing wouldn't ever be proposed in an italian restaurant), big unspiced polos; Paella was very good instead and very varied; at breakfast you use big and fat portion of croissant (too big and fat for italian standard), and even the meats were a bit fat. that was my impression.
sorry.



As for the role model, i think you are right, we have many problems; the countries to look at are Usa, Germany, Britain, Japan.
And mostly country with liberal economy policies, and less bureaucracy, things that italy lacks.

julia90
08-02-11, 01:33
Hey, that's not true! I also become friendly when I'm drunk of other stuff than beer. Or when I'm stoned! :cool-v:

In Germany we have a saying: "Germans love Italians without respecting them. Italians respect Germans without loving them." I think this sentence puts it to the point. However, sometimes I think only with Italians this attitude becomes really obvious, but could apply also to every other European nation instead of Italy.

Ironically, I was just about to open a new thread about Nazi Germans soon, a topic I just realized wasn't mentioned yet on this forum.

You should be a model, for you response, as you don't seem offended, by our thinkings and critics

julia90
08-02-11, 01:35
t. It was Julia90 (an italian poster) who brought this stupid Spain vs Italy thing into the topic, no spaniard said a single word about your country until then... that should give some clues about who may be obssesed about the other's country. In Spain we don't waste our time thinking about your country, ragazza.

Ciao.

PS- Oh, and it was Julia90 who suggested that italian cuisine was mediterranean in the first place, btw.

i'm sorry i don't want to bring animosity. maybe i was too critic.

Italian cusine is mostly mediterranean, only in northern italy you don't find standard mediterranean cusine, with plates such as Polenta and Fonduta.

Carlitos
08-02-11, 02:01
http://www.eturismoviajes.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/121.jpg

This typical and traditional restaurant in Madrid is considered by the Guinness Book of Records as the oldest in the world. Maybe so, not knowing there is other information that another restaurant somewhere in the world that has longer than this and to continue providing their services. This famous and legendary restaurant opened in 1725.

You have to know where to look, but when you go to tourist can stop anywhere to do any kind of food, not knowing the sites, but certainly in Madrid you can eat great, by God, this is Madrid! by Madrid to heaven, as the saying goes.

Please excuse him, Spanish is very likely, is due to years of isolation, not just find your place or feel that we must be continually demonstrate to Europe that we are Europeans, we must have patience, nothing more.

Regulus
08-02-11, 02:14
Spain loves Italy and the woman Spanish love Italian men, have a weakness for them. The fact that Spanish cuisine in the past has not achieved international fame who reached the French or Italian cuisine is that Spain did not know in the past sold better, perhaps because other issues prevailed in the country and we were not open Europe or the world for political reasons, but today there are already many Spanish chef who have earned national and international recognition.

I think that Iberian food is great. We have many Portuguese and Spanish in New Jersey and there is no shortage of good restaurants.

Mariscada en salse verde!:grin:

barbarian
08-02-11, 08:23
my all time favourite is greece cuisine. and uzi as an alcoholic beverage (and raki of course).

Dean
08-02-11, 10:22
I didn't mean to offend you, that was only my impression based on people online, and when i visited Madrid.
The food seemed to me, not much varied (if you compare it with italian or french cusine).. all i ate was Ovo Revueltos (such thing wouldn't ever be proposed in an italian restaurant), big unspiced polos; Paella was very good instead and very varied; at breakfast you use big and fat portion of croissant (too big and fat for italian standard), and even the meats were a bit fat. that was my impression.
sorry.



As for the role model, i think you are right, we have many problems; the countries to look at are Usa, Germany, Britain, Japan.
And mostly country with liberal economy policies, and less bureaucracy, things that italy lacks.

I'm sorry Julia90, but i think that you missed a lot of gastronomic food if you only have eaten pollo, huevos revueltos (¿huevos rotos?), tortilla y paella in Spain. What about sopa castellana, cocido madrileño, fabes asturianas, botillo, Cochinillo asado, gachas, pisto manchego, lentejas, bacalao a la riojana, merluza a la vasca, anchoas del cantabrico, paellas y arroces, sopas de verdura, de tomate, de ajo, etc, etc, etc.... Each region have its own gastronomic food. We eat all fish/seafood or vegetables (in fact, Spain is the 2º biggest fish/seafood consumer country) that you can imagine, we have thousand cheese variety, wines.... In Madrid you can eat any spanish food in many restaurants. I repeat, i'm sorry that you only ate chicken and eggs.

^ lynx ^
08-02-11, 12:40
@ Julia90.

You don't need to apologize, I didn't felt offended by your message. It was Sybilla who made a big deal out of this.

Greetings.

Carlitos
08-02-11, 23:40
I think that spanish food is great. We have many Portuguese and Spanish in New Jersey and there is no shortage of good restaurants.

Mariscada en salse verde!:grin:


Spanish food is excellent, but was always unknown in the rest of the world than French or Italian cuisine. The current problem is that France and Italy do not know how to fit the new situation in Spain, a country that has emerged from its slumber and France and Italy have something of amazement and fear, as all things French (cuisine, fashion etc) and Italian is seen more than a comic, then there is Spain, a country that France criticized and accused of being the third world and Italy that we see with good eyes, what funny as well, but not a competitive series, but now things have changed and are afraid of a country as old as them, but that comes back re-emerging as a novelty and the situation in France and Italy are concerned.

Grizzly
11-02-11, 21:39
in no case was a mass migration

Spanish immigration in France represented several hundreds of thousands of persons. Even today, there are still more than 100 000 of French with a Spanish citizenship. In contrary to British or Dutch, they come from the last economical immigration waves.

http://www.insee.fr/fr/themes/tableau.asp?reg_id=0&ref_id=etrangersnat (http://www.webdico.com/blue/browse.php?u=Oi8vd3d3LmV1cGVkaWEuY29tL2ZvcnVtLyZxd W90O2h0dHA6Ly93d3cud2ViZGljby5jb20vYmx1ZS9icm93c2U ucGhwP3U9T2k4dmQzZDNMbVYxY0dWa2FXRXVZMjl0TDJadmNuV nRMeVp4ZFc5ME8yaDBkSEE2THk5M2QzY3VhVzV6WldVdVpuSXZ abkl2ZEdobGJXVnpMM1JoWW14bFlYVXVZWE53UDNKbFoxOXBaR DB3Sm1GdGNEdGhiWEE3Y21WbVgybGtQV1YwY21GdVoyVnljMjV oZENaeGRXOTBPdyUzRCUzRCZhbXA7YW1wO2I9NSZxdW90Ow%3D %3D&b=5)


we were industrialized in the 18th century, 19 blast furnaces, sugar factories, textile, food, etc.

Speaking about proportions, economical and sociological impact, nothing to do with France, UK, Belgium or Germany. Industrialization was quite marginal in Spain.


but daring to describe Spain as a third world country is just a symptom of fear of a potential competitor

It was about the past (decades before the 80's), not the present.

Grizzly
11-02-11, 21:54
i'm sorry i don't want to bring animosity. maybe i was too critic.

Italian cusine is mostly mediterranean, only in northern italy you don't find standard mediterranean cusine, with plates such as Polenta and Fonduta.

I may mistake, but it seems to me that even in Northern Italy, there are a lot of typical mediterranean features in the food by the regular use of tomatos, spices and olive oil.

And according to the italian wiki, "fonduta" is related to Switzerland, France and Val d'Aoste. Not really "Italian".

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fonduta

Wilhelm
11-02-11, 21:55
It was about the past (decades before the 80's), not the present.
We are still waiting for the evidence. :innocent:

Grizzly
11-02-11, 22:08
We are still waiting for the evidence. :innocent: Just read the thread... http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gdp_percap-economy-gdp-per-capita&date=1960

Wilhelm
11-02-11, 22:16
Just read the thread... http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gdp_percap-economy-gdp-per-capita&date=1960
First of all, Spain ranks 34, which is not that different from today's ranking (around 25-30). And second : Third-worldness is not measured by per-capita but by HDI and other index such as poverty.

Carlitos
11-02-11, 23:46
Grizzly
Spanish immigration in France represented several hundreds of thousands of persons. Even today, there are still more than 100 000 of French with a Spanish citizenship. In contrary to British or Dutch, they come from the last economical immigration waves.

http://sauce.pntic.mec.es/jotero/Emigra3/cuantos.htm


According to official figures from the Spanish Institute of Migration (IEE) between 1959 and 1973 migrated to Europe one million (1,066,440), 71% of those who left out of Spain in those fifteen years.
Unlike previous migrations, in the sixties there is a migration from a rotating basis. Most emigrants left the country for an employment contract, established between the Spanish Institute of Emigration and the authorities of host countries, for an initial period of one year.
This feature promotes a flow of outputs and annual returns, and a close relationship between the recipient country's economic situation and the volume of employment contracts offered by Spain.
The annual average displacement of that period was 73,000 people and, if you discount the returnees, of 38,800.



Speaking about proportions, economical and sociological impact, nothing to do with France, UK, Belgium or Germany. Industrialization was quite marginal in Spain.

Spain can be considered from the perspective of industrialization, as belonging to the second generation of industrial countries in Europe with a late addition, just under a century after the first Industrial Revolution.

In the period from 1840 to 1930 the country was foremost supplier of raw materials destined for Central Europe and in a second degree, albeit progressive, joined as a producer of industrial goods. It would take nearly a quarter of a century that the advanced countries of Europe and North America to be inserted into the second phase of the technology revolution, this gap was quickly recovered in a short period between 1960 and 1973, which is called [[[Spanish miracle]]. The global recession caused by rising oil prices, which was added competition of the third generation of industrialized countries that emerged from some Latin American and Southeast Asia, revealed the structural weaknesses of the Spanish industrial system, which experienced during the next ten years one of the most acute crisis among industrialized countries.

In Spain there is a saying: Better late than never.
It is a risky venture to say that industrialization in Spain is a fact, "marginal. "




[QUOTE]
It was about th
Quote:Originalmente publicado por Carlitos http://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttonscolour/viewpost.gif (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=364976#post364976)


but daring to describe Spain as a third world country is just a symptom of fear of a potential competitor

Grizzly
It was about the past (decades before the 80's), not the present.

The term Third World was coined by French economist Alfred Sauvy in 1952, drawing a parallel with the French term third State to designate countries that do not belong to any of the two blocks that were faced in the Cold War, the Western bloc (U.S., Western Europe, Japan, Canada, South Korea, Australia and its allies) and the Communist Bloc (USSR, Eastern Europe, China). Currently, so anachronistic (the "second world" of the "socialist bloc"has disappeared as a concept), the term is so imprecise to refer to the peripheral countries underdeveloped or "developing", in contrast to developed countries in the latter current sense, the term is sometimes used to refer collectively to all developed countries, and sometimes to refer only to those who recorded the worst levels of human and economic development.

France in the past has also been a third world country, indeed around the world world has ever been past the third world.

julia90
13-02-11, 22:28
I may mistake, but it seems to me that even in Northern Italy, there are a lot of typical mediterranean features in the food by the regular use of tomatos, spices and olive oil.

And according to the italian wiki, "fonduta" is related to Switzerland, France and Val d'Aoste. Not really "Italian".

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fonduta

well, melted cheeses are common all along the western alpine chain, in france you have fondue and raclette, in italy Fonduta is a piedmont regional dish eaten all along the alps and the prealps.
it's quite common there.

in northern and central italy you don't find tomato sauces in the tradition, the use of tomatoes for sauces is a southern italian tradition.
in northern italy they do use olive oil too, but a bit less than in southern italy, because in northern italy olive trees don't grow except in liguria and around the lombard lakes.
olive trees start to grow from tuscany to sicily, with that two northern italian exception

this map shows the areas (in green) where olive trees grow:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/d/d0/Ulivo.PNG

Grizzly
18-02-11, 21:17
in northern and central italy you don't find tomato sauces in the tradition, the use of tomatoes for sauces is a southern italian tradition.

Tuscany or Emilia-Romagna are yet in the northern-half of the country, and they use tomatoes, in the bolognese sauce for example and probably other dishes.

Grizzly
18-02-11, 21:41
http://sauce.pntic.mec.es/jotero/Emigra3/cuantos.htm


According to official figures from the Spanish Institute of Migration (IEE) between 1959 and 1973 migrated to Europe one million (1,066,440), 71% of those who left out of Spain in those fifteen years.
Unlike previous migrations, in the sixties there is a migration from a rotating basis.

You try to decrease the impact of the Spanish immigration in France, by puting in relief the turn-over. But :
- you are refering to a small period of the Spanish immigration. As I have already posted, with the INSEE link, there is still a hundred of thousands of people with a Spanish citizenship in France. If I follow your logic, it means that the immigration wave was far superior to this number.
- many sources present the same proportions of migrants at the beginning of the century. See for example "Gérard Noiriel, Le creuset français - histoire de l'immigration , XIX-XXes siècles" : there was about a hundred of thousand of Spanish in France in 1914.
- this turn-over is the same about all the migrants. In US, it was (and maybe it still be) the same for the Mexicans, or formely the Italians, but also now for the Africans or the Asians in Europe.
- even you're right about the turn-over feature, it does not change the basis of my point : Spanish have migrated to find work and money in France (but also in Germany, Switzerland or UK).

Grizzly
18-02-11, 22:04
Spain can be considered from the perspective of industrialization, as belonging to the second generation of industrial countries in Europe with a late addition, just under a century after the first Industrial Revolution.

"Just" under a century ? But a century in the recent History of Europe is not nothing. It means that Spain has completely missed the Industrial Revolution. The fact that some industrialization is growing since WWII does not change anything. The actual "thirld-world" countries are becoming industrialized now too (China, Latin America, South-East Asia...).


In the period from 1840 to 1930 the country was foremost supplier of raw materials destined for Central Europe and in a second degree, albeit progressive, joined as a producer of industrial goods.

Supplying raw materials has nothing to do with industrialization : this last is the transformation of the raw materials to become goods for cunsumption. Africa or Latin America supply many raw materials to Europe or Northern America. Spain will be a minor actor in good-producing in Europe until the 80's.


It would take nearly a quarter of a century that the advanced countries of Europe and North America to be inserted into the second phase of the technology revolution, this gap was quickly recovered in a short period between 1960 and 1973, which is called [[[Spanish miracle]]. The global recession caused by rising oil prices, which was added competition of the third generation of industrialized countries that emerged from some Latin American and Southeast Asia, revealed the structural weaknesses of the Spanish industrial system, which experienced during the next ten years one of the most acute crisis among industrialized countries.

Yes, this is what the english wiki says...with few source. The one quoted (J.L Garcia Ruiz) shows that Spain was at the same level with some Latin America countries and far behind Western Europe for vehicle industry. Anyway, this boom does not seem to be typically "Spanish". This period was economically a boom everywhere, even in Africa or Asia.


the term is so imprecise to refer to the peripheral countries underdeveloped or "developing", in contrast to developed countries in the latter current sense, the term is sometimes used to refer collectively to all developed countries, and sometimes to refer only to those who recorded the worst levels of human and economic development.

The semantic debate does not change my point : Spain was rather a poor, a thirld-world, an undevelopped...country until the 80's, whatever the sense you give to this expression. It is not an injure, just a fact.

Sirius2b
19-02-11, 05:57
What ignorance, Northern Italy is Alpine not Mediterranean and their cuisine is derived from the French and German one, LOL!!!!
EPIC FAILURE!

Listen, I really don't want to waste my time with you, but Italy has nothing to learn from Spain. Our economy is better not becouse we are more people but becouse we have more industries, otherwise, following your concept, India should be richer than us. Strage way to think :thinking:
Or do you think that also Germany and France are richer than Spain ONLY becouse they have more people?

Second, we have also the highest IQ of Europe, more nobel prizes than Spain, more variety in cuisine (probably you know only pizza and pasta, but we have an infinity of dishes some of the inspired to the French cuisine, other to the Greek and other to the German, so, make a tour in a good site of Italian cuisine and learn something).

Third, Italian fashion is considered to be the best in the world together with the French, we have Ferrari, Ducati, Lamborghini, ecc.ecc.

Even Argentinians, the only true European country in Southern American, loves to underline the way they are Italian and to regret the Spanish culture/ancestry.


Tell me if I am wrong, and this is it just me... or the Spaniards here manage to alienate a good percentage of people in these forums... ?

(Certainly, this is not uniform... I have noticed that U.K. people trend to be much more resilient to this effect... )

But... why made @Lynx be so rude against Italians?

Italian culture, design, fashion and its historical contributions to the World are universally admired by people of good taste, with a minimum of education.

However, @Lynx seems to believe that nothing worthy of learning or admiration could come from there...

I understand perfectly the reaction of @Sybilla.

And finally...


It seems to me that Spaniards suffer some inferiority complexes towards Italy. I've noticed that becouse on forums Spaniars the first thing to do is insulting Italians. Pathetic and sad behavour.

As I don't mean to offend Spain as a whole but only this idiot, I stress the fact that Italians, as a nation, love Spain and consider Spaniards our brothers. So, very strange behavour the Lynx's one...

I for one, have friendly recommended @Lynx to make a deep soul searching... analyse from where there come this vision of the world that made him act like this.

Certainly, he represents a X percentage of Spaniards,... but there is another Y percentage, and I hope they are the mayority, that are a bit or much more spiritually and intellectually evolved.

And for the rest of the users of the forums, that may be interested in understanding both types, I recommend a very great novel from that great Austrian-Jewish writer, Vicki Baum... "Headless Angel (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&&sa=X&ei=GT9fTdzQFY68sAORlIHaCA&sqi=2&ved=0CBEQBSgA&q=Vicki+Baum,+Headless+Angel&spell=1&bav=on.1,or.&fp=d4a7e52ef0af3d83)" (1948).

(Unfortunatelly, almost impossible to get a copy nowadays).

But if you do, you will understad a lot about Spaniards.

Cambrius (The Red)
19-02-11, 06:16
What ignorance, Northern Italy is Alpine not Mediterranean and their cuisine is derived from the French and German one, LOL!!!!
EPIC FAILURE!

Listen, I really don't want to waste my time with you, but Italy has nothing to learn from Spain. Our economy is better not becouse we are more people but becouse we have more industries, otherwise, following your concept, India should be richer than us. Strage way to think :thinking:
Or do you think that also Germany and France are richer than Spain ONLY becouse they have more people?

Second, we have also the highest IQ of Europe, more nobel prizes than Spain, more variety in cuisine (probably you know only pizza and pasta, but we have an infinity of dishes some of the inspired to the French cuisine, other to the Greek and other to the German, so, make a tour in a good site of Italian cuisine and learn something).

Third, Italian fashion is considered to be the best in the world together with the French, we have Ferrari, Ducati, Lamborghini, ecc.ecc.

Even Argentinians, the only true European country in Southern American, loves to underline the way they are Italian and to regret the Spanish culture/ancestry.

It seems to me that Spaniards suffer some inferiority complexes towards Italy. I've noticed that becouse on forums Spaniars the first thing to do is insulting Italians. Pathetic and sad behavour.

As I don't mean to offend Spain as a whole but only this idiot, I stress the fact that Italians, as a nation, love Spain and consider Spaniards our brothers. So, very strange behavour the Lynx's one...

What do you consider to be Alpine Italy? Not all of Northern Italy is Alpine. Doesn't really matter, does it?

BTW, why do you use such bold letters (as insults)? No one else here does that. Time to calm down.

Wilhelm
19-02-11, 06:28
The semantic debate does not change my point : Spain was rather a poor, a thirld-world, an undevelopped...country until the 80's, whatever the sense you give to this expression. It is not an injure, just a fact.
Repeating the same lie over and over doesn't make it a truth.

Sybilla
20-02-11, 22:00
I never said "Italy should learn from Spain", ragazza... I said that "we don't see Italy as a role model, but something we have to avoid to become".
Ciao.


Read again your post. IT WAS OFFENSIVE. Even a (honest) blind can see that.


Hey, that's not true! I also become friendly when I'm drunk of other stuff than beer. Or when I'm stoned! :cool-v:

In Germany we have a saying: "Germans love Italians without respecting them. Italians respect Germans without loving them."

I was exposing only the general view that Italians have of Germans. In my case I admire them and when they are polite with Italians I even love them, for many things. I think that Italy has many things in common with Germany: great literature and philosophy, classical music, art, folk tales. I like you Germans, so if you want my opinion I disagree with many Italians about Germans. :satisfied:


I may mistake, but it seems to me that even in Northern Italy, there are a lot of typical mediterranean features in the food by the regular use of tomatos, spices and olive oil.



In Northern Italy people cook with butter, not with olive oil, use more meat and a lot of cheeses. It is very well know that Northern Italian cuisine has been influenced by French cuisine, and it is very sad that you want to deny that. And why then? Even the cheese was invented by Romans (casius), so it is maybe the Roman cuisine that influenced the French one. :innocent:


Tell me if I am wrong, and this is it just me... or the Spaniards here manage to alienate a good percentage of people in these forums... ?

(Certainly, this is not uniform... I have noticed that U.K. people trend to be much more resilient to this effect... )

But... why made @Lynx be so rude against Italians?

Italian culture, design, fashion and its historical contributions to the World are universally admired by people of good taste, with a minimum of education.

However, @Lynx seems to believe that nothing worthy of learning or admiration could come from there...

I understand perfectly the reaction of @Sybilla.

And finally...



I for one, have friendly recommended @Lynx to make a deep soul searching... analyse from where there come this vision of the world that made him act like this.

Certainly, he represents a X percentage of Spaniards,... but there is another Y percentage, and I hope they are the mayority, that are a bit or much more spiritually and intellectually evolved.



Thank you.


What do you consider to be Alpine Italy? Not all of Northern Italy is Alpine Doesn't really matter, does it?

BTW, why do you use such bold letters (as insults)? No one else here does that. Time to calm down.

Alpine Italy is the area of Italy that lies on or around the Alps, but also in some areas of the Appennine the culture, especially in cuisine, is pretty similar. To be fully apinic are Trentino-Alto Adige, Friuli Venezia Giulia, half Veneto, most of the Lombardy, Valle d'Aosta, Piemonte and part of Liguria.

Cambrius (The Red)
20-02-11, 22:24
Read again your post. IT WAS OFFENSIVE. Even a (honest) blind can see that.



I was exposing only the general view that Italians have of Germans. In my case I admire them and when they are polite with Italians I even love them, for many things. I think that Italy has many things in common with Germany: great literature and philosophy, classical music, art, folk tales. I like you Germans, so if you want my opinion I disagree with many Italians about Germans. :satisfied:



In Northern Italy people cook with butter, not with olive oil, use more meat and a lot of cheeses. It is very well know that Northern Italian cuisine has been influenced by French cuisine, and it is very sad that you want to deny that. And why then? Even the cheese was invented by Romans (casius), so it is maybe the Roman cuisine that influenced the French one. :innocent:



Thank you.



Alpine Italy is the area of Italy that lies on or around the Alps, but also in some areas of the Appennine the culture, especially in cuisine, is pretty similar. To be fully apinic are Trentino-Alto Adige, Friuli Venezia Giulia, half Veneto, most of the Lombardy, Valle d'Aosta, Piemonte and part of Liguria.


Obviously N. Italian cuisine is different than what you find in he south. Northerners use olive oil less, but pasta and tomatoes are hardly absent. Both northern and southern dishes are excellent. The only thing I don't particularly like are polenta and rice. Not much to argue about here.

You find regional differences in cuisine throughout Europe. No big woop...

Carlitos
21-02-11, 16:24
In Spain usually admires European countries in general and in particular major in our area, Italy, France, Germany, for contributions and development which have contributed to the world, does not exist in any ordinary citizen malice toward any country in our environment. Spain is mainly a tourist destination that makes us open and outgoing to the foreign visitor, besides being a Western country have been open to the world for what we consider Mexico as a sister country, the strong ties that bind us inseparable. The Spanish know what we are and who we are and where we are today, we have no complex because we know we can be in the future, which certainly goes for the union, cooperation and good relations.

julia90
22-02-11, 00:53
Tuscany or Emilia-Romagna are yet in the northern-half of the country, and they use tomatoes, in the bolognese sauce for example and probably other dishes.

well in tuscany the cusine is definitely mediterranean, because here olive trees grow.
in emilia their regional cusine has ragout, you are right.
and north of rome and in all italy fresh toamtoes are common, except along the alpine chain; but the use of tomato's sauces, begins from tuscany to south; in tuscany we have "pappa al pomodoro", that uses tomato sauce.
but you won't find tomato as a liquid sauce north of florence.

Tuscany isn't considered northern italy; it's considered central italy, and when people want to be more precise it's considered centre-north italy.
Emilia-Romagna you are right it's plain north italy.

julia90
22-02-11, 01:58
I've found this funny pics online:

How Italians see the other europeans
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_p9bTjaEtKuc/TLwXvTCuKtI/AAAAAAAAGtk/7pJBRzcZZQY/s1600/Ero+by+Italians.

How French see the other Europeans:
http://frogsmoke.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/3936207864_41fd3027b6.jpg

How Germans see other Europeans:
http://www.andrewcusack.com/net/wp-content/uploads/stemap3.jpg

How Bulgarians see other Europeans:
http://i51.tinypic.com/ncjgg8.jpg

How British see other Europeans:
http://prop.seventh8th.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/065.jpg

How Poles see other Europeans:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4133/5045592095_3e775e13ce.jpg

How Swiss see other Europeans:
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5001/5261130020_85353264ff.jpg

How Turks see Europeans:
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5086/5371734858_61bd33f158.jpg

How Russians see Europeans:
http://alphadesigner.com/img/600x400xartwork-mapping-stereotypes-12.jpg.pagespeed.ic.FMRt1VR04c.jpg

How the Holy See see other Europeans:
http://www.mapsandthecity.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/600x450xartwork-mapping-stereotypes-14-pagespeed-ic-r3iodz8jug.jpg

How Gays see Europeans:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4148/5009856543_5c6ffc1d75_b.jpg

How Northern Italians see Italy:
http://ethiopia.limbo13.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/italy.jpg

Antigone
22-02-11, 07:03
I've seen these before and the maps are massive generalisations, of course, but are still very funny. I like the British one, the Brits can be so xenophobic and they do get their knickers in a knot over the EU!

Sirius2b
22-02-11, 19:05
Ha, ha, ha... :laughing: :laughing:

Thanks, @Julia90, these maps are freaking hylarious...

Thanks.

julia90
23-02-11, 21:35
europe according to USA

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_M5caBRfRNtw/TK4yx9iBhCI/AAAAAAAAAcU/qgxA8nRWhcI/s1600/Europe_according_to_USA.jpg

julia90
23-02-11, 21:40
other maps

http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/disciple/germanyzatic1a2.jpg

http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/GALLERY/3451_04_10_10_3_44_29.png

http://drawn.ca/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/2721592095_f9ccd02810_b.jpg

http://forum.gram.pl/upl/forum/2009_36/20090905204544.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3281/2722416468_1aebcdebb2.jpg

http://slapblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/prog-europe.jpeg

http://izismile.com/img/img3/20100503/files/1/how_americans_see_europe_01.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ICNJOdcYrfk/TVUIbb4UHNI/AAAAAAAAAfo/0iHeOolA5Gw/s1600/map-europe-according-to-silvio-berlusconi.jpg

Sirius2b
23-02-11, 22:22
"Better no #1"

Sirius2b
24-02-11, 00:29
"Better no #2"

:D

Grizzly
25-02-11, 22:07
Repeating the same lie over and over doesn't make it a truth.

Not a lie, a truth attested by the facts.

Grizzly
25-02-11, 22:35
In Northern Italy people cook with butter, not with olive oil, use more meat and a lot of cheeses. It is very well know that Northern Italian cuisine has been influenced by French cuisine, and it is very sad that you want to deny that. And why then? Even the cheese was invented by Romans (casius), so it is maybe the Roman cuisine that influenced the French one. :innocent:

Thank you.



- For traditional cuisine,I don't know. Julia90 has confirmed that olive oil is used in Northern Italy, though in a less extend. I have just found figures showing that butter consumpion per capita is very low in Italy as other mediterranean countries, compared to UK, France or Germany. Scandinavia seems to be obviously a modern exception (it was not the case in ancient times).

http://www.fas.usda.gov/dlp2/circular/1999/99-07dairy/butpcap.pdf

By the way, don't forget that Liguria, Tuscany or Emilia Romagne are in Northern Italy too (cf Bolognese sauce). For the rest :

- Meat and cheese are eaten everywhere in Europe.
- No, the Romans didn't invent cheese, this last takes its roots in the ancient Neolithic times.
- In which way should French have influenced "northern" italian cuisine ?
- I don't see where it should be sad to cook with olive oil, tomatoes or spices.

Wilhelm
26-02-11, 04:00
Not a lie, a truth attested by the facts.
No. You only presented the per-capita as a prove of the third-worldness of Spain in the 60's, but you failed because : 1) The position of Spain is 34th in the world, which is not that far from today (24-30) and 2) The per-capita is not a measurement to determine 3worldness, because otherwise a country like Equatioral Guinea, which ranks 19th in per-capita, would be a 1st world country, but obviously it is not, because it has a very high index of poverty. That's why other measures are used, such as HDI or povert index.

julia90
22-07-11, 02:06
Europe according to Greeks
http://alphadesigner.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/Europe-According-to-Greece-640x426.jpg

Europe according to Hungarians
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4041/4258321627_044007a77e.jpg

Carlitos
22-07-11, 03:24
Slightly a little sophisticated, a reporting of the Coca-Cola for Spain acclimated in Italy, I imagine than for the ingredient Martini. With the Andalusian model Noelia López.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbhr-S0rKII

caldera
22-07-11, 15:19
http://europeansforum.com

Cimmerianbloke
25-07-11, 03:57
In the same vein, but much more sophisticated (well, not always, though...) is the Atlas of the World by the satirical US paper The Onion:

http://www.amazon.com/Our-Dumb-World-Onions-Planet/dp/0316018422/ref=cm_cmu_pg__header

Careful if you have cracked ribs, this one is funny as Hell...

Gavroche
28-07-11, 16:42
Germans love Italians without respecting them. Italians respect Germans without loving themIt is very funny because we also use this expression for the Germans^^

""We respect Germans without loving them, Germans love us without respecting us""...Bizarre :satisfied:

I have to admit my generation don't try to put stereotypes on flags, but laught a lot about religions, gays, racists, and others commnuties :wary2:

Bialy Orzel
09-04-14, 02:27
Speaking as a Pole, I can assure you that even though Polish and Ukrainian/Russian languages and cultures are similar, that definitely does not mean that they like each other. The Russians,throughout history, have done what seems their best to make the Poles' lives miserable. The fact that they're a much larger country and very imperialistic, I might add, especially in the Cold War era, where cultural freedom was suppressed in Poland because of the Russian-Communist influence, makes a bitter taste remain in Poland's mouth. The Ukrainians are despised, also, merely for the fact that their language is practically Russian, uses the same alphabet, and that Ukraine is so close to Russia and has a greater Russian presence.

ElHorsto
09-04-14, 22:57
and balkanization is extending further...

Cacciatore
28-04-14, 20:05
The potential for this thread to go awry is limitless. Fire away!

Soto
06-04-19, 20:46
I answered to the stereotype of "spaniards being snobs towards Latin Americans" saying that some Latin Americans can be a pain in the ass for us sometimes... now our mexican friend seems committed to prove my point.

Greetings.

SPANIARDS (NOT SPANISH):

Huge eurococksuckers, they lay down and let angloeuropeans to sodomize them, eternal slippery worms who can't help but leech to survive.

The world could be hispanic, but you know... spaniards.