View Full Version : Haplogroup N and the Finns
kireikoori
07-11-07, 05:27
To my knowledge Scandinavia, especially the Finnish have loads of haplogroup N, a haplogroup common in Asia.
Funny thing is people used to think that the Sami were Siberians. While the Finnish have a high amount of Haplogroup N, it is not in higher concentration in the Sami. The Sami are actually found to be more closely related to the Berbers.
The rest of Finland, related to the Caucasoid Europeans and the Mongoloid Siberians. All Ural-Atlaic people originate from North Asia do they not?
Where does Finland get it's Uralicness though? Did this happen in Prehistory or are the Finnish descendants of Magyars just like the Hungarians? Or both?
To my knowledge Scandinavia, especially the Finnish have loads of haplogroup N, a haplogroup common in Asia.
Finland is not part of Scandinavia. Here is a map of Y-DNA N haplogroup distribution (http://www.relativegenetics.com/genomics/images/haploMaps/N_large_RG.jpg). As you can see it is virtually absent from Scandinavia, except the northern part occupied by the Sami people.
The Sami are actually found to be more closely related to the Berbers.
Really ? Where did you get that information ?
The rest of Finland, related to the Caucasoid Europeans and the Mongoloid Siberians. All Ural-Atlaic people originate from North Asia do they not?
That is my understanding.
Where does Finland get it's Uralicness though? Did this happen in Prehistory or are the Finnish descendants of Magyars just like the Hungarians? Or both?
The Finns and Magyars have the same Uralic origins. According to genetic studies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_people#Genetics), the Finns have entered Europe about 12-14,000 years ago from Northern Asia. Their language is more recent though; the ancestor of all Finno-Ugric languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Ugric_languages) is thought to have originated in the Ural mountains some 4,000 to 5,000 years ago, and only split into various dialects later, evolving into Finnish, Hungarian, but also the various Sami languages.
kireikoori
26-11-07, 17:59
Finland is not part of Scandinavia. Here is a map of Y-DNA N haplogroup distribution. As you can see it is virtually absent from Scandinavia, except the northern part occupied by the Sami people.
Yes, I've seen that picture before of Haplogroup N before, it's quite fascinating. But still, in every list of Scandinavian/Nordic countries I've ever seen, Finland is listed. Scandinavia is location, not genes, is it not?
The Northern part of Scandinavia is occupied by the Sami? My, I have a lot more to learn about the Nordic countries.
Also, that blue seems to have spread quite far into the Nordic lands according to that picture, but is just more prevalent in Finland. The Northeastern part of Sweden and Norway seems to have a decent amount of Haplogroup N according to that map.
Really ? Where did you get that information ?
I have a link available, but the forum tells me I can't post urls since I don't have ten posts yet.
The Finns and Magyars have the same Uralic origins. According to genetic studies, the Finns have entered Europe about 12-14,000 years ago from Northern Asia. Their language is more recent though; the ancestor of all Finno-Urgic languages is thought to have originated in the Ural mountains some 4,000 to 5,000 years ago, and only split into various dialects later, evolving into Finnish, Hungarian, but also the various Sami languages.
4,000 to 5,000 years ago? Hmm...I had thought it might have been older than that. Fascinating.
But still, in every list of Scandinavian/Nordic countries I've ever seen, Finland is listed. Scandinavia is location, not genes, is it not?
Scandinavia refers to the place where Scandinavian languages are spoken, i.e. Danish, Swedish and Norwegian (sometimes Iceland is included as well). The word derives from Scania, which is a region at the southern tip of Sweden, where the ancient Norse language and culture originated.
There is an exaplanation of Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia#The_Nordic_Countries_vs._Scandinavia).
Also, that blue seems to have spread quite far into the Nordic lands according to that picture, but is just more prevalent in Finland. The Northeastern part of Sweden and Norway seems to have a decent amount of Haplogroup N according to that map.
I am not sure that the map is very accurate. It seems that it was made by just making a gradient from the epicenter and the distance from it determines the colour depth. There are probably lots of irregularities and enclaves in the spread of genes in reality. Anyway, no country has carried out large-scale genetic studies of its population yet, so the figures are still quite approximate.
The origin of Finns isn't understood in a very clearly, as far as I know.
According to one theory, the Sami originally populated Finland. Around 3800-3000 BC the Fenno-ugrian language started developing and around 2400-2000 BC the increased baltic influence separated people into coastal and inland populations. The difference grew bigger when the Germans decided to pack up their bags and travel up here too, in about 1500-500 BC. This was the turning point int he separation of the Sami language and Finnish.
So, to sum up, the mixing of the original inhabitants of Finland and the newcomers separated the Finns and the Sami form each other.
In the 19th century scientists concluded that Finns, in fact, are related to "Mongoloids" but later it has been found out that the skulls that served as a proof for this were reconstructed wrong.
As for the use of Scandinavia, I suppose that in the English speaking world the word Scandinavia is sometimes used also to include Finland but maybe the Nordic Countries is more politically correct :relief: .
It is true that the Finns are a blender of Mongoloid and Germanic people. Some Mongoloid features are still apparent even in tall and blond Finns. Likewise, many northern and eastern Swedes also have slight Mongoloid features (especially in Gotland, afaik).
gaijinalways
13-03-08, 05:01
Maciamo,
Very interesting, thanx for the info, a lot to digest.
As for the use of Scandinavia, I suppose that in the English speaking world the word Scandinavia is sometimes used also to include Finland but maybe the Nordic Countries is more politically correct
True, I love Nordic skiiing!
The origin of Finns isn't understood in a very clearly, as far as I know.
According to one theory, the Sami originally populated Finland. Around 3800-3000 BC the Fenno-ugrian language started developing and around 2400-2000 BC the increased baltic influence separated people into coastal and inland populations. The difference grew bigger when the Germans decided to pack up their bags and travel up here too, in about 1500-500 BC. This was the turning point int he separation of the Sami language and Finnish.
So, to sum up, the mixing of the original inhabitants of Finland and the newcomers separated the Finns and the Sami form each other.
In the 19th century scientists concluded that Finns, in fact, are related to "Mongoloids" but later it has been found out that the skulls that served as a proof for this were reconstructed wrong.
Today in Estonia and Finland geneticists and archaeologist have focused on the theory that the Fenno-Ugric languages speaking people arrived here immediately after the end of the ice age. No one does not take anymore seriously the arrival of Siberian theory because it does not confirmed by nor archaeological or genetic research. Later a massive migration to Estonia and Finland has not been revealed.
According to Richard Villems, haolgrupp N spread from west to east rather than east to west:
http://www2.hs.fi/english/archive/news.asp?id=20010130IE4
http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Villems2004.pdf
http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Tambets2001.pdf
http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Rootsi2000.pdf
Hi recent studies shows that Finns and Hungarian are not related to each other. The only one they have common is the language. THen you give a site as an exemple wikipeda wich is not an sientic page. Read this instead and you will see that they are not related. go to herkules.oulu.fi Finns are blender yes today but so is the whole world sience says that 68% has germanic Dna and 32% mongolian. I am born in Finland and I am neither germanic or Finn on my female linage. My linage is from siberian penisula for 20000 years ago and then they went to British islands and became scottish/Irish and then go to scandinavia and after that to Finland for a 400 years ago. How do I know that? I have come to 1500 and 1600 century and I have 2 exact matches with two different families both from British Islands. So you see in Finland they are a mix of people but the most common haplogroup are U so what do you say about that?
Hi recent studies shows that Finns and Hungarian are not related to each other. The only one they have common is the language.
Overall that is true, but there is a very small percentage of common ancestry nonetheless. In terms of Y-DNA the common denominator between Finns and Hungarians is haplogroup R1a1a. It doesn't mean much as it is common in all Eastern Europe and is associated with Indo-European people rather than Fenno-Ugric ones. Hungary has only 1% of N1c1, but there is a good chance that this represents the remnant of a small elite of Fenno-Ugric speakers who brought the Hungarian language to the Panonnian plain.
THen you give a site as an exemple wikipeda wich is not an sientic page. Read this instead and you will see that they are not related. go to herkules.oulu.fi Finns are blender yes today but so is the whole world sience says that 68% has germanic Dna and 32% mongolian.
Mongolian and Mongoloid are completely different things. The Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese and Thai are Mongoloid people, but certainly not Mongol or Mongolian. Same for most Siberians and all Native Americans.
I wrote that the Finns were a blend of Germanic and Mongoloid people 3 years ago. It was a mistake. I should have written pre-Germanic, which is to say Paleolithic Northern European (hg I1). I1 is also common among the Saami, who are thought to be the descendants of the last Paleolithic hunter-gatherers from Scandinavia - those that were not absorbed by the Indo-European R1a and R1b people.
I am born in Finland and I am neither germanic or Finn on my female linage. My linage is from siberian penisula for 20000 years ago and then they went to British islands and became scottish/Irish and then go to scandinavia and after that to Finland for a 400 years ago.
What are you talking about ? What's your haplogroup ? N1c1 and R1a1 both originated in Siberia (northern Siberia for N1c1, southern Siberia/Central Asia for R1a1), but neither travelled to Britain and Scandinavia before reaching Finland !
How do I know that? I have come to 1500 and 1600 century and I have 2 exact matches with two different families both from British Islands.
Exact matches at what level ? It is usually meaningless.
If you are saying that you paternal ancestors came to Finland 400 or 500 years ago that's long enough for your genealogy to be mistaken or for a non-paternal event to have taken place. Rare are the families that go 15 or 20 generations with a wife cheating on her husband !
So you see in Finland they are a mix of people but the most common haplogroup are U so what do you say about that?
Now you are talking about mtDNA. Haplogroup U represents Paleolithic Europeans, like H, except that U is far more common in north-eastern Europe. The original Fenno-Ugric speaking Siberians were most likely N1c1 on the paternal side and U2 + U4 + U5 on the maternal side (I mean predominantly, not exclusively).
Today in Estonia and Finland geneticists and archaeologist have focused on the theory that the Fenno-Ugric languages speaking people arrived here immediately after the end of the ice age. No one does not take anymore seriously the arrival of Siberian theory because it does not confirmed by nor archaeological or genetic research. Later a massive migration to Estonia and Finland has not been revealed.
And where did the Fenno-Ugric speakers come from if not Siberia ?
I think they arrived from Siberia at the end of the Ice Age, notably with the Kunda culture (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml). They already used pottery although the Kunda people were not agricultural. This indicates that they didn't come from the Middle East (anyway that would be completely against all genetic evidence), but from Asia. Scandinavia didn't have pottery at the time. Pottery originated in Japan around 12,000 years ago, spread to China 10,000 years ago, then to Siberia, where it eventually found its way to north-east Europe.
Archaeology is in full accord with genetics here. N1c is widespread all over Siberia, and pottery spread from north-east Asia to Siberia.
And where did the Fenno-Ugric speakers come from if not Siberia ?
I think they arrived from Siberia at the end of the Ice Age.
I don't think they arrived from Siberia at the end of the Ice age
I don't think they arrived from Siberia at the end of the Ice age
Southern Siberia wasn't under ice. Additionally the end of the last Ice Age was 12,000 years ago, as opposed to the last glacial maximum which was 20,000 years ago. Haplogroup N has been estimated to be between 15,000 and 20,000 years old. N1c would be about 14,000 years old, and N1c1 (the one in Finland and north-west Russia) only 10,000 years old. N might have travelled quite a lot in 10,000 years before becoming N1c1 in Russia/Finland.
I have a link available, but the forum tells me I can't post urls since I don't have ten posts yet.
Please, as soon as you can post urls don't forget to show us that study.
Welcome to the forum, btw. :good_job:
haplogroup N. My ancester of my greatgrandmothers grandmother Hedvig Hahls grandfather around 1690 has been comfirmed as haplogroup N. The haplogroup are prehistoric Finns. Last I heard that the Magyars and Finns are not related.
I always was curious about N1c1. It seems that it is Asiatic in origin, but I'm not sure about the relation with mongoloid populations. There is a lot of N1c1 in Finland, Latvia and Lithuania, but in DNA tests I think only the Finns get a significant connection whith those populations in average, and it's still quite low considering that this subclade represents almost 60% of the Finnish haplogroups. In my opinion the first N1c1's were closer to Europeans (Northern Europeans), but perhaps I'm mistaken.
To my knowledge Scandinavia, especially the Finnish have loads of haplogroup N, a haplogroup common in Asia.
Funny thing is people used to think that the Sami were Siberians. While the Finnish have a high amount of Haplogroup N, it is not in higher concentration in the Sami. The Sami are actually found to be more closely related to the Berbers.
The rest of Finland, related to the Caucasoid Europeans and the Mongoloid Siberians. All Ural-Atlaic people originate from North Asia do they not?
Where does Finland get it's Uralicness though? Did this happen in Prehistory or are the Finnish descendants of Magyars just like the Hungarians? Or both?
Finnish language and Hungarian language has the same origin which is called Uralic or Finno-Ugric. Uralic comes from proposed origin of the language, that is around Urals mountains. Linguistically Uralic languages have common words with Indo-European languages, which is used to conclude that both existed originally as neighbours around Urals mountains and the plains south of Urals.
Haplogoup N has been proposed to have originated around Baikal lake in Southern Siberia. It has high frequencies among Northern Siberian populations. However, these populations are very small. Typically on tens of thousands or few hundred thousand people in remote areas.
When N originated, the "Mongoloids" were obviously in South Eastern Asia and later moved north towards China and Mongolia replacing and mixing with original populations, who had haplogroup N. Ice Age refugee model applies to Asia as well as Europe.
Sami have genetic similarities with berbers, which supports the idea, that Western Europe was populated via Europes western coastline after Ice Age. It is suggested that Golf Stream made it possible from Iberian refugee. Another refugee is suggested to have existed in now a days Ukraine.
It is wrong to connect languages with certain haplogroups. Languages change easily. Haplogroups do not. Populations who speak certain languages have propably allways consisted of several haplogroups with varying frequencies. Genetic bottlenecks and genetic drift has causes some small frequency to become dominating and dominating ones have become small. Gene tests from ancient mummies often show vary rare haplogroups.
I always was curious about N1c1. It seems that it is Asiatic in origin, but I'm not sure about the relation with mongoloid populations. There is a lot of N1c1 in Finland, Latvia and Lithuania, but in DNA tests I think only the Finns get a significant connection whith those populations in average, and it's still quite low considering that this subclade represents almost 60% of the Finnish haplogroups. In my opinion the first N1c1's were closer to Europeans (Northern Europeans), but perhaps I'm mistaken.
As always a Spanish denying that a haplogroup originated outside of Europe. Not all Spanish are like that, but because of these Spain is running as the most ignorant and racist country in Europe. Too bad.
I'm not denying anything, just giving my opinion, wich I am not the unique person who thinks it. Keep in mind that Asian origin does not necesarily mean closer to Asians, and that's what I meant here.
Continue with your delirant agenda. Come on guy, search another trunk.
what does this have to do with racism ????
N1c1 seems to descend from Yakut people who lived near Lake Bajkal
first arrival was 12000 years ago, when they settled east of the Fennoscandian ice sheet
but there would have been a 2nd arrival some 4000 years ago
can any one tell more about that?
Theory of Gyula László Theory
The Hungarian archaeologist Gyula László has proposed a very controversial theory, also known as "theory of double conquest”, in recent decades. He has argued that the Magyars arrived in two separate waves, centuries apart, a notion which is still controversial. The theory argues that around 670 a new ethnic group moved into the Carpathian Basin, representing the late-Avar culture with a griffin-creeper pattern on their belt-clasp. The theory says that these latter Avars were actually Magyars and that they survived the centuries until the Árpád's Magyars arrival.
From what little I know of them, Finns are, paternally, extremely different from all other European populations ; they acquired from their fathers y-DNA that is considered a "genetic isolate" in Europe. Maternally, they are predominantly mtdna haplogroup H at 40 or so percent( as are most European women) , haplogroup U5 and some Haplogroup V. Paternally, about 60% of them are Y-DNA haplogroup N. Haplogroup N split off from East Asian haplogroup O in China, took a hard turn towards the west , as they proceeded north, and continued trekking westwards throughout the cold climates of northern Russia (Siberia) for thousands of years, all the long accumulating genetic diversity until reaching their current location in Finland.
Correction, sorry Finnish mtdna doesn't really have mtdna haplogroup V although I believe the rest to be valid : )
Basically Finns are what happens when N1c most frequent in Finland, nenets, Yakuts, other Siberian people's that separated from O in east Asia near Chinese origin point, intermarry with mtdna H and mtdna U5 women. So most common combination is N1c and mtdna H but there is also lesser, half as much, but still frequent y-DNA I1a and mtdna U5. So a Finn can be N1c and mtdna H or N1c and mtdna U5, but some are also I1a and mtdna H , etc. this is what it is to be Finn.
N a south-east asian marker
http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/origins-and-dispersals-of-y-chromosome.html
K gave birth to NO, O would stop in south-central china whereas N would head north and west until attaining western Siberia (north Russia)/Finland and the Baltic states (Estonia,Latvia,Lithuania)
That is common knowledge at this point (N+O) just like L+T
albanopolis
23-06-13, 04:09
Do Estonias show any Asiatic feature? I have seen just two of them altogether, and the one I have seen I did not notice any asiatic feature.
I mean the haplogroup movements, not physical characteristics, Estonians are slavo-Finnic (40% N1c and 40% R1a with 5-10% I1.) they are diluted Slavs and Finnish types with typical European mtdna (H,U,T) etc.
albanopolis
23-06-13, 15:33
I mean the haplogroup movements, not physical characteristics, Estonians are slavo-Finnic (40% N1c and 40% R1a with 5-10% I1.) they are diluted Slavs and Finnish types with typical European mtdna (H,U,T) etc.
O.K but in many Fins Asians features are visible. Others show strong eastern European features. If, as you are saying they are 40% N1c they too should have asian phenotypes. Let say Albanians have 50% of their genes from Near East, and the Near eastern phenotypes are common.
Finns are 63% N1c and 30% I1, they don't have much else whereas the other Baltic states (Estonia,Latvia,Lithuania) are heavily diluted with male R1a in the mix as well. Finns maternally have much H! (40%) 20% are H1+H3 to be more precise but 40% H in total, just as most Europeans are! They also have some 25% mtdna U, most of it (20%) being U5. They are an indigenous group of southeast Asian men that made a very bold move north into Siberia from south/central china and eventually migrated into the easternmost fringes of Europe (Finland,the Baltic region predominantly, northern Russia) where they mixed in with typical European females creating a sort of new ethnic group. Note that by the time the men of N reached Finland, they had undergone even further genetic mutations N-N1a-N1b-N1c etc. that further differentiated them from their long lost asiatic cousins of hg O. (O dominates china/southeast Asia today; Vietnam, can be found in Laos, Thailand, Philippines, Taiwan, even Malaysia and Japan, although hg D dominates Japan, there's a good 25-30% O in Japan as well.)
"Eastern European" phenotypes are quite diverse, the terminology you're using is not really helpful.
Both Finns and Baltic populations have the highest proportions of Mesolithic genes, with the main difference that the former are substantially more asian shifted than the later. So it seems that the Finns had some kind of contact with Siberian populations that did not affect the Baltic area (or just did to a much lesser extent). However, the Balts were definetly more affected during the Neolithic, and specially by the IE migrations, than Basques or Sardinians for instance.
Concerning the topic, I still don't see that N1c was responsible of the mongoloid admixture considering its prevalence among Balts. Maybe other haplogroups, such as Q or others, even if less present, are the remnants of the ancient Asian contacts. N was probably originally very asian-like, but when it became N1c could be already diluted with Caucasoids.
I do think that they where Asian like personally. It's just that among contact with typically European females (H+U lineages for example, many become blond and aryan looking half white/ half asiatic, with blue eyes etc.
I'm basing my argument on admixture experiments. N1c is very frequent among Balts as well, but they are far from showing 6-8% Siberian as the Finns do. Maybe 1% or even less. Without taking into account the unknown percent of asian ancestry included inside the so called "Northern clusters", but there's definetly a substantial difference between Finns and Balts having both a lot of N1c linages.
I mean, taking modern frequencies as reference, there's no clear proof that the reason is N1c. ¿Why the correlation works for one group and not for the others?
Not to be forgotten: There can be also some pseudo asian look due to borealization as an adaptation to very cold climates.
Look at Yakuts and nenets for example, very high I. n1c, asiatic character? Definitely yes, it becomes less evident with the fins/Sami people and Baltic states which also have quite high N1c. I guess the mtdna in both these regions is what changes, the Finns having mixed far more with European blond haired blue eyed Mtdna.
Whereas probably the Yakuts and nenets mixed in predominantly with female Siberian/asiatic even Amerindian lineages probably (B,F,maybes even mtdna A)
"Eastern European" phenotypes are quite diverse, the terminology you're using is not really helpful.
Both Finns and Baltic populations have the highest proportions of Mesolithic genes, with the main difference that the former are substantially more asian shifted than the later. So it seems that the Finns had some kind of contact with Siberian populations that did not affect the Baltic area (or just did to a much lesser extent). However, the Balts were definetly more affected during the Neolithic, and specially by the IE migrations, than Basques or Sardinians for instance.
Concerning the topic, I still don't see that N1c was responsible of the mongoloid admixture considering its prevalence among Balts. Maybe other haplogroups, such as Q or others, even if less present, are the remnants of the ancient Asian contacts. N was probably originally very asian-like, but when it became N1c could be already diluted with Caucasoids.
I think this post is the most correct. As stated, high N correlates with high Northern European/mesolithic genes. Finns have gotten their Siberian admixture from somewhere else - its was probably not an ancestral component carried from the Uralic Urheimat. There is of course no doubt that N come from Asia, but that migration was so ancient that N-people were completly assimialted into the caucasoid gene pool.
The most widely held theory is that the proto-Saami speaking people, moving from the Uralic Urheimat in the Volga region, picked up Siberian genes from a population in North-Eastern Europe. They then moved to Lapland and mixed with the paleo-European population to form present day Saamis. Finns in turn got their Siberian admixture from the proto-Saami speaking people. This explain why all Uralic people do not have Siberian genes. For example Veps lack it, and it's not found in the Baltic although Finnic languages were previously spoken there.
It is true that the Finns are a blender of Mongoloid and Germanic people. Some Mongoloid features are still apparent even in tall and blond Finns. Likewise, many northern and eastern Swedes also have slight Mongoloid features (especially in Gotland, afaik).
Really? Do you actually think that a 5-6% share of the genome could be so visible? Especially considering how ancient the admixture is, how evenly the genes must be spread out.
What you see is probably the result of genetic drift and missing out on otherwise common European genes. Different facial features.
I wrote that the Finns were a blend of Germanic and Mongoloid people 3 years ago. It was a mistake. I should have written pre-Germanic, which is to say Paleolithic Northern European (hg I1). I1 is also common among the Saami, who are thought to be the descendants of the last Paleolithic hunter-gatherers from Scandinavia - those that were not absorbed by the Indo-European R1a and R1b people.
I still think that is an oversimplification. West Finns do in fact have high I and germanic or proto-germanic people have lived in Finland, before or after the arrival of Finns, as is evident in very old loanwords, but the proto-Finnish speaking people who mixed with these germanics (or whatever they were) were not Siberian. Rather Baltic, if any label fits them at all. The Siberian admixture comes from another source as i state in the post above.
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