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Truthdna
04-06-09, 00:44
This article: (Distribution of European mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups by region in percentage) States the following lie : Spain has an amazingly large percentage of "other" haplogroups (23%). About half of them are of probable Native American origin (A, B, C), one quarter of African origin (L1, L2, L3), and the remaining quarter of European, Middle-Eastern or Indian origin (HV, M, N, R).
The above statement has no evidence of being true although it states (several sources were used and averages recalculated by merging the data available) the article does not cite its sources although it can be certain that its largest source is Mitosearch which I Have warned against elsewhere because a large percentage of Latin Americans can trace their direct maternal ancestry to Spain but are incorrect.
There are a number of scientific studies that disprove the first statement including


Joining the pillars of Hercules: mtDNA sequences show multidirectional gene flow in the western Mediterranean.

Mitochondrial DNA Variation of Modern Tuscans Supports the Near Eastern Origin of Etruscans
The sources above show that Spain has about 1% L (African mtDNA) which is comparable to England. And 0% Native American mtDNA
Is there anyway I can fix this mistake or notify someone who can?
Sincerely Truthdna

JackMack
04-06-09, 21:38
This article: (Distribution of European mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups by region in percentage) States the following lie : Spain has an amazingly large percentage of "other" haplogroups (23%). About half of them are of probable Native American origin (A, B, C), one quarter of African origin (L1, L2, L3), and the remaining quarter of European, Middle-Eastern or Indian origin (HV, M, N, R).
The above statement has no evidence of being true although it states (several sources were used and averages recalculated by merging the data available) the article does not cite its sources although it can be certain that its largest source is Mitosearch which I Have warned against elsewhere because a large percentage of Latin Americans can trace their direct maternal ancestry to Spain but are incorrect.
There are a number of scientific studies that disprove the first statement including


Joining the pillars of Hercules: mtDNA sequences show multidirectional gene flow in the western Mediterranean.

Mitochondrial DNA Variation of Modern Tuscans Supports the Near Eastern Origin of Etruscans
The sources above show that Spain has about 1% L (African mtDNA) which is comparable to England. And 0% Native American mtDNA
Is there anyway I can fix this mistake or notify someone who can?
Sincerely Truthdna

There are quite a lot of racists out there who are putting uninformed and biased information on the internet- it doesn't make them right and you have to sort through all the data to find the credible common denominator before drawing any conclusions. I read many things biased against people from the Mediterranean but it's usually put there by someone who is unsure of his own roots or genetic background. I have even read comments on this site by members who seem biased in one way or another but usually because understanding genetics is not easy. Try Stormfront if you need a good laugh. The level of ignorance is very deep. :confused2:

Wilhelm
02-10-09, 19:58
According to this mtDNA maps, there is no such "others" haplogroups in Spain. Spain has the same mtDNA haplogroups found in all Europe.


http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/eur-mtdna.png



http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/102BAE79-9942-4105-BA33-1EF86929B267/0/LondonResultsMtdna_b.jpg



http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/6343/mtdnamapworld.jpg

Cambrius (The Red)
02-10-09, 22:50
Yes, this is a huge mistake. I have no idea how such a large (22%) other figure was arrive at. Quite bizarre.

Cambrius (The Red)
02-10-09, 23:01
There are quite a lot of racists out there who are putting uninformed and biased information on the internet- it doesn't make them right and you have to sort through all the data to find the credible common denominator before drawing any conclusions. I read many things biased against people from the Mediterranean but it's usually put there by someone who is unsure of his own roots or genetic background. I have even read comments on this site by members who seem biased in one way or another but usually because understanding genetics is not easy. Try Stormfront if you need a good laugh. The level of ignorance is very deep. :confused2:

Indeed, there are many deranged racists out there. And, a great percentage of them are poorly educated and VERY stupid. The fact is that the majority of Iberians (Spaniards and Portuguese) genetically correlate and match much more with other European Atlantic Fringe peoples than with Mediterraneans. There are, unfortunately, quite a number of racial myths out there as regards everything from the Greeks originating from Ethiopia to the Romanians being mainly Gypsy. Sick world... I've had my own battle here with one nut-job. I blew him out with the facts... :laughing:

Wilhelm
03-10-09, 02:06
Yes. As you can see in the map, Iberian mtDNA haplogroups are extremely similar with that of Germany or Norway, typically European. There are no "odd" haplogroups.
I don't know where this 23% figure comes from, It's quite clear that there is some agenda behind it

Maciamo
03-10-09, 10:08
After double checking the sources, it seems that the 23% all come from commercial tests, so it is very possible that all those people are in fact Latin Americans who think they have Spanish matrilineal ancestry but in fact don't (or don't understand the difference between maternal and matrilineal). As this looks suspicious to me too, I will remove the data from the table and recalculate it based on scientific studies only.

luis77
28-12-09, 23:11
It is wrong to say that Spain has about 1% L (African mtDNA) which is comparable to England. Of course if you count in the average regions like Basques or Catalans who do not have L lineages, you get an average not very high but still between 2 and 3 % .
I doesnt not make sense to average regions with a very different history.

The highest % of African mtDNA


But if you still want to do an average from the main studies, you get 2.10%

Alvarez et al. (2007) found 9 L lineages out of 312 (2.90%)
Pereira et al. (2005) found 8 L lineages out of 496 (1.61%)
Casas et al. (2006) found 9 L lineages out of 108 in Cordoba (8.30%, very high! )

So 26/916 gives 2.83 % whereas in England you get only 2 sequences for the same sample size which is about 0.2 % and 15 times lower.

And of course in regions like Galicia you have % like 3.50, in Cordoba about 8.30 % etc

luis77
28-12-09, 23:23
And even if the frequency is clearly higher in Portugal (for example Pereira et al. (2005)found 32 sequences in 549 individuals that is a mean of 5.83% with frequencies of 11.38 % in the South and many other studies found the same levels) than in Spain , an average of almost 3% in Spain is without parallel in the rest of Europe

Cambrius (The Red)
28-12-09, 23:38
It is wrong to say that Spain has about 1% L (African mtDNA) which is comparable to England. Of course if you count in the average regions like Basques or Catalans who do not have L lineages, you get an average not very high but still between 2 and 3 % .
I doesnt not make sense to average regions with a very different history.
The highest % of African mtDNA
But if you still want to do an average from the main studies, you get 2.10%
Alvarez et al. (2007) found 9 L lineages out of 312 (2.90%)
Pereira et al. (2005) found 8 L lineages out of 496 (1.61%)
Casas et al. (2006) found 9 L lineages out of 108 in Cordoba (8.30%, very high! )
So 26/916 gives 2.83 % whereas in England you get only 2 sequences for the same sample size which is about 0.2 % and 15 times lower.
And of course in regions like Galicia you have % like 3.50, in Cordoba about 8.30 % etc


And, how about the studies that included M3 as Sub-Saharan mt-DNA. M3 is Asian. Researchers have done that in Portugal, increasing the SS frequencies by over a third. Instead of 3% or less nationally, which is a much more valid figure, they calculated over 5%. Moreover, think about all the samplings that were not representative of the native population and should never have been included. Participants from Alcacer do Sal (people isolated by disease and slavery from the general population)? Are you freaking serious? Some "geneticists" are incompetent or have political agendas (Pereira is likely one of them).

luis77
28-12-09, 23:59
None of these studies includes M3 but only L lineages.

You also mentionned Achilli et al 2007 (Mitochondrial DNA Variation of Modern Tuscans Supports the Near Eastern Origin of Etruscans). Here are the numbers they reported for Spain (exluding Basque people which is very different genetically and by the way wants to separate form Spain) :

Spain, northwestern 8/216
Spain, central 1/148
Spain, Andalusia 2/114
Spain, northeastern 3/179

Which gives again 14/657 = 2.13 % while England is reported at 2/335 = 0.60 %

So apart from Basque Country and Catalonia, we see that Spain has an average > 2% without parallel in the rest of Europe...

Wilhelm
29-12-09, 00:00
Germany has 2% of L, it's the average in Europe. There is already a thread about mtDNA L : http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25475

^ lynx ^
29-12-09, 00:03
I resize this map:

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/7863/eurmtdna.png (http://img442.imageshack.us/i/eurmtdna.png/)

luis77
29-12-09, 00:12
Germany has 1/335 reported by Achilli at al 2007 which gives 0.30% only, France has 1/332 = 0.30%, Poland has 1/542 = 0.18% and so on.

Only Italy, in some regions, has frequencies between 2 an 3% like in Latium 4/138 = 2.90%, Volterra 3/114 = 2.63% etc

^ lynx ^
29-12-09, 00:15
Interesting study about the most predominat haplogroup in Europe (H): CLICK (http://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/1/19.full.pdf)

Source: http://genome.cshlp.org/

luis77
29-12-09, 00:15
Scotland 0/1199 = 0%, Norway 0/556, Ireland 0/300 etc all numbers reported by Achilli et al 2007

Wilhelm
29-12-09, 00:24
Germany has 1/335 reported by Achilli at al 2007 which gives 0.30% only, France has 1/332 = 0.30%, Poland has 1/542 = 0.18% and so on.

Only Italy, in some regions, has frequencies between 2 an 3% like in Latium 4/138 = 2.90%, Volterra 3/114 = 2.63% etc
Actually Germany has 1.2% :
" Combined data from two large mtDNA studies provides an estimate of non-Caucasoid maternal ancestry in Italians. The first study sampled 411 Italians from all over the country and found five South Asian M and East Asian D sequences (1.2%) and eight sub-Saharan African L sequences (1.9%). The second study sampled 465 Sicilians and detected ten M sequences (2.2%) and three L sequences (0.65%). This makes a total of 3% non-white maternal admixture (1.3% Asian and 1.7% African), which is very low and typical for European populations, since Pliss et al. 2005, e.g., observed 1.8% Asian admixture in Poles and 1.2% African admixture in Germans.
(Plaza et al. 2003;
Romano et al. 2003)

^ lynx ^
29-12-09, 00:34
Luis77 you could've put the link to the wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macro-haplogroup_L_%28mtDNA%29

...to summarize all your points.

Wilhelm
29-12-09, 00:58
lol that's what I was going to say too. He even uses the same words : "without parallel in the rest of Europe..." lol

^ lynx ^
29-12-09, 01:07
Actually, if you look at the "history" of that wikipedia article, you'll see that it was recently modified. These machupichus never give up. :useless:

Wilhelm
29-12-09, 01:19
If we look at Y-DNA African admixutre, Germany or Austria have more than Spain :

"Sub-Saharan African Y-chromosomes are much less common in Europe, for the reasons discussed above. However, Haplogroups E(xE3b) and Haplogroup A spread to Europe due to migrations from Northeast Africa, rather than the slave trade. The haplotypes have been detected in Portugal (3%), Spain (0.42%), Germany (2%), Austria (0.78%), France (2.5% in a very small sample), Italy (0.45%), Sardinia (1.6%) and Greece (0.27%). By contrast, North Africans have about 5% paternal black admixture.

^ lynx ^
29-12-09, 01:25
Thanks for the info Wilhelm, but let's stay on topic (mtDNA)... don't feed the troll. ;-)

Wilhelm
29-12-09, 01:39
There is nothing else to talk about mtDNA. The map you showed says it all. There is no odd mtDNa haplogropus in Iberia. The distribution is exactly as Germany or Norway.
The "other" mtDNa haplogroups in Spain is 7% just like in Denmark or Wales. (mtDNA Table, Eupedia)

Cambrius (The Red)
29-12-09, 01:58
Of all the countries recorded, Italy has the highest "Other" mt-DNA haplogroups, 16.5%.

Cambrius (The Red)
29-12-09, 02:22
There is nothing else to talk about mtDNA. The map you showed says it all. There is no odd mtDNa haplogropus in Iberia. The distribution is almost exactly as Germany or Norway.
The "other" mtDNa haplogroups in Spain is 7% just like in Denmark or Wales. (mtDNA Table, Eupedia)

6-7% seems to be the average...

Wilhelm
29-12-09, 02:40
According to this maps, there is no L mtDNA in Iberia, or atleast it is negligible

http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/102BAE79-9942-4105-BA33-1EF86929B267/0/LondonResultsMtdna_b.jpg


http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/6343/mtdnamapworld.jpg


http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/7863/eurmtdna.png

LeBrok
29-12-09, 06:04
1.2% African admixture in Germans.
(Plaza et al. 2003;
Romano et al. 2003)

Ah, now you are more white/europeans than Germans, lol, but who cares, who says you're not? I'm sorry but you guys ( Iberian peninsula gang) are a self winding machine, the self support group with only mission to prove to yourself how Celtic/European your are. Any admixture of "odd" gens gives you a heart attack, and is condemned as impurity and foul matter, and god forbid it could be from Africa. Well, get the news, the 99.9 of your genome came from Africa :grin:. Oh, I know it hurts, but wait don't die yet, I have a little more to say.
The whole world is telling you, you're what you say, give it a rest, you don't need to prove anything, we like you the way you are, etc..., but the freeken energizing bunny is still going, lol. I honestly doubt that you guys want to discuss, or have an interest in anything else than Celtic/true Europeans gens. :bored: I think it was done to death.

Cheers

PS. Hey don't go berserk on me, after all I'm a friend, but if the whole world is telling you to tone down, there must be a truth in it.

Maciamo
29-12-09, 11:48
According to this maps, there is no L mtDNA in Iberia, or atleast it is negligible

http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/102BAE79-9942-4105-BA33-1EF86929B267/0/LondonResultsMtdna_b.jpg


http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/6343/mtdnamapworld.jpg


http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/7863/eurmtdna.png

These maps are old (about 5 years, which in the DNA world is almost "ancient") and unreliable.

Wilhelm
29-12-09, 14:58
These maps are old (about 5 years, which in the DNA world is almost "ancient") and unreliable.
How do you know that ?

Wilhelm
29-12-09, 15:05
Ah, now you are more white/europeans than Germans, lol, but who cares, who says you're not? I'm sorry but you guys ( Iberian peninsula gang) are a self winding machine, the self support group with only mission to prove to yourself how Celtic/European your are. Any admixture of "odd" gens gives you a heart attack, and is condemned as impurity and foul matter, and god forbid it could be from Africa. Well, get the news, the 99.9 of your genome came from Africa :grin:. Oh, I know it hurts, but wait don't die yet, I have a little more to say.
The whole world is telling you, you're what you say, give it a rest, you don't need to prove anything, we like you the way you are, etc..., but the freeken energizing bunny is still going, lol. I honestly doubt that you guys want to discuss, or have an interest in anything else than Celtic/true Europeans gens. :bored: I think it was done to death.

Cheers

PS. Hey don't go berserk on me, after all I'm a friend, but if the whole world is telling you to tone down, there must be a truth in it.

What the hell are you talking about ??
I was just responding to this Brazilian guy who said Germany has 0% of mtDNA L which is not true, it is 1.2%. And the sub-sharan y-DNA of Germany is 2% while Spain is 0.4%. Im just getting facts straight
If you don't like to discuss about genetics, you are in the wrong forum.
He came here to say that Spain has "unparallel" mtDNA L , which is wrong, and I just prove it. Are you mad for it? I'm Sorry.

Maciamo
29-12-09, 15:36
How do you know that ?

The second, McDonald's map, was published in 2005 (based on older data). The other two were already around the web a few years ago too.

^ lynx ^
29-12-09, 17:00
Ah, now you are more white/europeans than Germans, lol, but who cares, who says you're not? I'm sorry but you guys ( Iberian peninsula gang) are a self winding machine, the self support group with only mission to prove to yourself how Celtic/European your are. Any admixture of "odd" gens gives you a heart attack, and is condemned as impurity and foul matter, and god forbid it could be from Africa. Well, get the news, the 99.9 of your genome came from Africa :grin:. Oh, I know it hurts, but wait don't die yet, I have a little more to say.
The whole world is telling you, you're what you say, give it a rest, you don't need to prove anything, we like you the way you are, etc..., but the freeken energizing bunny is still going, lol. I honestly doubt that you guys want to discuss, or have an interest in anything else than Celtic/true Europeans gens. :bored: I think it was done to death.

Cheers

PS. Hey don't go berserk on me, after all I'm a friend, but if the whole world is telling you to tone down, there must be a truth in it.


Prejudices are adorable, aren't they?

I'm still waiting for you to answer me to this question, btw:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=353437&postcount=14

Stop playing the psicotherapist on us, if something bugs you inside just spit it out.

PS. Somehow I'm guessing you are not canadian at all.

Cambrius (The Red)
29-12-09, 17:17
Ah, now you are more white/europeans than Germans, lol, but who cares, who says you're not? I'm sorry but you guys ( Iberian peninsula gang) are a self winding machine, the self support group with only mission to prove to yourself how Celtic/European your are. Any admixture of "odd" gens gives you a heart attack, and is condemned as impurity and foul matter, and god forbid it could be from Africa. Well, get the news, the 99.9 of your genome came from Africa :grin:. Oh, I know it hurts, but wait don't die yet, I have a little more to say.
The whole world is telling you, you're what you say, give it a rest, you don't need to prove anything, we like you the way you are, etc..., but the freeken energizing bunny is still going, lol. I honestly doubt that you guys want to discuss, or have an interest in anything else than Celtic/true Europeans gens. :bored: I think it was done to death.
Cheers
PS. Hey don't go berserk on me, after all I'm a friend, but if the whole world is telling you to tone down, there must be a truth in it.
I appreciate what you are saying, however, we need to understand that there are too many insecure, racist - a great percentage likely mentally out of equilibrium to some degree - people in our world who constantly attempt to raise their self esteem levels through the spread of outrageous lies about any number of European ethnicities. These hateful, delusional people are scared s***less because science has buried their fantasy land version of what an Iberian (and some others), a Spaniard or Portuguese, is. They run around claiming that all native origin Iberians are essentially Arabs or Semites of some type, when all the scientific evidence overwhelmingly demonstrates otherwise. These pathetic charlatans can't deal with the truth in any way and they even refuse to acknowledge Iberia's long and very substantial Celtic history... :laughing:
Yes, to you and I, such low-life are idiots that should not be paid attention to. But, remember, their sick message is picked up mainly by the poorly educated masses who have little critical thinking ability. Repeated projection of false ethnic stereotypes is not easy to eliminate and the truth about things must be told with utmost clarity and vigor.

LeBrok
29-12-09, 22:02
It's not about the knowledge and info guys. Information is a beautiful thing. But it's the way most of you react to different, contrary, or just new ideas in Iberian context. One thing is to discuss and argue, other to bring epithets or call names just because someone think differently.

You don't want Hispanics coming here and attack you, then pay attention how you describe them. I truly believe that part of the problem started here. It's the unpleasant attitude of some Iberian individuals.

Here is a very fresh example.

lynx said:
"PS. Somehow I'm guessing you are not canadian at all."

What is this? Another personal attack by lynx? If I'm not Canadian, then what I said doesn't count? Supposition intended as demeaning towards a person he doesn't like? On top of it totally unrelated to any subject here.
I'm pretty sure you are busy right now trying to dig some dirt on me, lol. You love that don't you? Personal attack posts are your forte.

Just pointing to fact, how big disservice lynx is doing for all Iberians here.
Some food for thought.

Cheers

^ lynx ^
29-12-09, 22:33
lynx said:
"PS. Somehow I'm guessing you are not canadian at all."

What is this? Another personal attack by lynx? If I'm not Canadian, then what I said doesn't count? Supposition intended as demeaning towards a person he doesn't like? On top of it totally unrelated to any subject here.
I'm pretty sure you are busy right now trying to dig some dirt on me, lol. You love that don't you? Personal attack posts are your forte.

Just pointing to fact, how big disservice lynx is doing for all Iberians here.
Some food for thought.

Cheers

Wow that's what I call a overreact, so now suggesting that someone is not canadian is a personal attack??... pretty funny your victimization. That sounds very familiar to me. Actually, this looks more like a personal attack:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=353437&postcount=14

Seriously, I think something weird is bugging into you and you don't want to spit it out.

Get well soon.

Maciamo
31-12-09, 19:07
I have started a new thread to discuss specifically about African haplogroups in Iberia (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25568).

Maciamo
31-12-09, 20:04
Back to the original topic, Helgason et al. (2001) gives 2.27% of mtDNA haplogroups A, B, C, D in Iberia (1.14% for C, 0.85% for A, and 0.28% for D). They are all probably Native American rather than Asian. Haplogroups C and D are fairly common in Russia, Bulgaria and Turkey (2 to 5%), but not found in Central Europe or in the British Isles.

Wilhelm
31-12-09, 20:30
Back to the original topic, Helgason et al. (2001) gives 2.27% of mtDNA haplogroups A, B, C, D in Iberia (1.14% for C, 0.85% for A, and 0.28% for D). They are all probably Native American rather than Asian. Haplogroups C and D are fairly common in Russia, Bulgaria and Turkey (2 to 5%), but not found in Central Europe or in the British Isles.
This studies are probably done to White Latin Amerians, hence the Native american Hgs

^ lynx ^
31-12-09, 20:44
That study was made in 2001 and by that time we already have an important colony of latin american immigrants in Spain. I don't know how many credit we can give to that study, more info about it would be nice.

Cambrius (The Red)
31-12-09, 21:37
That study was made in 2001 and by that time we already have an important colony of latin american immigrants in Spain. I don't know how many credit we can give to that study, more info about it would be nice.

The problem with a good percentage of these studies is that they are NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF THE NATIVE ORIGIN POPULATION. The interview process for project participants is flawed and, in some cases, "researchers" have twisted agendas. Time and the growing preciseness of genetic science will eventually weed out all garbage research.

Wilhelm
31-12-09, 21:57
I agree. I have alaways wondered how the testees look like, and how native they are, to sum up, How representative of the native population they are. Like Cambria Red says, time will tell..

Maciamo
01-01-10, 12:49
This studies are probably done to White Latin Amerians, hence the Native american Hgs

I don't think so. Scandinavians, and Eastern Europeans also have a bit of haplogroups A, C and D.

The Spaniards were the first to colonise the Americas. Even on his first trip Columbus took back a few Natives to show to the monarchs. In the ensuing centuries many Spaniards took Native wives in the Americas. Most stayed in the Americas, but some missed Spain and went back with their wife and children. There was a small but constant exchange of population between Spain and its colonies during the 16th, 17h and 18th centuries. Whatever way you look at it there must be at least a small amount of Native American blood among the modern Spanish population to account for this history.

I understand that some white people refuse to accept that they or their friends may not be "pure" European, but that's the way it is. Anyway all Europeans have a good deal of Middle Eastern or North African blood, and almost nobody among ordinary people is aware of it. White Americans who descend from the early colonist (back to the independence of the USA) are almost 100% certain to have a little bit of both Native American and Black African DNA (both at detectable autosomal levels, as can be shown by tests like 23andme or deCODEme. Would you be able to say that Val Kilmer (http://images.google.com/images?q=Val+Kilmer&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1GPCK_fr___BE352&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=Jtc9S8XPBM-L4QbRp5GqCA&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=5&ved=0CC4QsAQwBA) is 1/8 Native American, or that Keanu Reeves (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1GPCK_fr___BE352&um=1&sa=1&q=keanu+reeves&aq=0&oq=kean&aqi=g10&start=0) has no European ancestry (1/4 Hawaiian, 1/4 Chinese, 1/2 Lebanese) ? It comes as a surprise to many people.

DNA tests have also shown that all African Americans have a substantial amount of European blood, even those who are very darked skinned and look African. Ironically, many African Americans have more European than African blood (e.g. 60-40). This is because genes influencing looks and pigmentation are only a small fraction of DNA, and if you mix Mulattos between them for many successive generations, some will end up white, others black, and the majority in between (café-au-lait). But the invisible DNA, about our immune system, blood type, character, etc. will be dispersed just as randomly, and does not follow physical characteristics. Traits and pigmentation can be of different origins too. Just look at Tiger Woods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Woods) or Lewis Hamilton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Hamilton). They have dark skin, but have more European-looking facial traits. A European with less than 5% of Native American ancestry would not look any different from a European with no Amerindian ancestry.

Anyway I don't see the problem for a Spaniard or other European with having a bit of Native American blood. All Finns are aware of their Siberian admixture, and many Scandinavians too (Y-haplogroups N and Q are common among Nordic people, and indeed a marker of Norse ancestry for Western Europeans). Siberian people are the ancestors of Native Americans, and their closest relatives.

^ lynx ^
01-01-10, 16:07
Thanks for the info Maciamo, but still it would be interesting to know which regions were taken into account in this studio. If you can provide a link it would be appreciated.

Greetings and happy new year to everyone. :)

Wilhelm
01-01-10, 17:32
Back to the original topic, Helgason et al. (2001) gives 2.27% of mtDNA haplogroups A, B, C, D in Iberia (1.14% for C, 0.85% for A, and 0.28% for D). They are all probably Native American rather than Asian. Haplogroups C and D are fairly common in Russia, Bulgaria and Turkey (2 to 5%), but not found in Central Europe or in the British Isles.
Maciamo do you have the sources ? Thanks :good_job:

Maciamo
01-01-10, 18:01
Maciamo do you have the sources ? Thanks :good_job:

Here you are (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B8JDD-4RDPT5P-K&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=53a826009b65dc0fad9e193544170f0c) (table 3, around the middle of the page)

Drac
09-01-10, 14:51
It is wrong to say that Spain has about 1% L (African mtDNA) which is comparable to England. Of course if you count in the average regions like Basques or Catalans who do not have L lineages, you get an average not very high but still between 2 and 3 % .
I doesnt not make sense to average regions with a very different history.

The highest % of African mtDNA


But if you still want to do an average from the main studies, you get 2.10%

Alvarez et al. (2007) found 9 L lineages out of 312 (2.90%)
Pereira et al. (2005) found 8 L lineages out of 496 (1.61%)
Casas et al. (2006) found 9 L lineages out of 108 in Cordoba (8.30%, very high! )

Amusing how no one around here seems to have caught your specious manipulations and lies. First of all, Priego de Cordoba does not equal "Cordoba". It's just a small municipality of it. And second, the authors of the study do not consider M/N/L3 as "sub-Saharan", only L1 and L2 :


"The significant higher number of sub-Saharan African lineages (L1 and L2, Table 2) in MP..."

(I would post the URL for the study so that everyone can check it for themselves, but it doesn't allow me to do that yet)

The actual frequencies of sub-Saharan lineages for the medieval (MP) and present (PP) population of that place should actually be:

MP: 8.1% (still lower than modern day North Africa)

PP: 0.9%

So without your artificial inflation for the present population of that place, then your "calculation":



So 26/916 gives 2.83 %

should be like this:

Alvarez et al. (2007) found 9 L lineages out of 312 (2.90%) [I have not been able to access this paper so far, so I can't check if you also manipulated the data to suit your obvious agenda, so for the moment being it will have to pass.]

Pereira et al. (2005) found 8 L lineages out of 496 (1.61%)

Casas et al. (2006) found 1 sub-Saharan (L1-L2) lineage out of 108 in Priego de Cordoba (0.9%, very low! )

So 18/916 gives 1.96%


whereas in England you get only 2 sequences for the same sample size which is about 0.2 % and 15 times lower.

Funny how you very "casually" "forgot" that one of your very own sources, Pereira et al. 2005, cites 1% among the British.

Drac
09-01-10, 15:01
So apart from Basque Country and Catalonia, we see that Spain has an average > 2% without parallel in the rest of Europe...

Really? Again "mysteriously" "forgetting" some of your very own sources, like Pereira et al. 2005, which cites 2.38% among Albanians and 2% among Finns.

Drac
09-01-10, 15:07
Norway 0/556

Again your "mysterious" and very selective "amnesia"? How about Passarino et al. 2002 (1.4%)?

Drac
09-01-10, 15:34
Actually, if you look at the "history" of that wikipedia article, you'll see that it was recently modified. These machupichus never give up. :useless:

If you think that's bad, take a look at what these Afrocentric/Nordicist/Race-denying trolls and charlatans did with the old article "sub-Saharan admixture in Europe", which was pretty balanced. They erased it, and turned it into an obvious joke of an article called "African Admixture in Europe", chock-full of carefully selected data, lies, manipulations, obsolete stuff (HLA genes, immunoglobulin allotypes, etc.) while effectively barring more current and valid research, like STRUCTURE studies. Go to the discussion section and you will see how the main Afrocentrist there (Muntuwandi/Wapondaponda), in cahoots with several others, managed to bar Small Victory from putting some order and objectivity there.

Spaniards interested in such topics should be very concerned about this, as immediately after Portugal, Spain is the #1 European target of these dishonest charlatans. The average Joe who consults such Wikipedia articles just assumes they are accurate and objective, when in reality many times they are neither. More Spanish people with a good knowledge of genetics should get involved in such Wikipedia articles and correct a lot of this misinformation.

Cambrius (The Red)
09-01-10, 19:07
If you think that's bad, take a look at what these Afrocentric/Nordicist/Race-denying trolls and charlatans did with the old article "sub-Saharan admixture in Europe", which was pretty balanced. They erased it, and turned it into an obvious joke of an article called "African Admixture in Europe", chock-full of carefully selected data, lies, manipulations, obsolete stuff (HLA genes, immunoglobulin allotypes, etc.) while effectively barring more current and valid research, like STRUCTURE studies. Go to the discussion section and you will see how the main Afrocentrist there (Muntuwandi/Wapondaponda), in cahoots with several others, managed to bar Small Victory from putting some order and objectivity there.

Spaniards interested in such topics should be very concerned about this, as immediately after Portugal, Spain is the #1 European target of these dishonest charlatans. The average Joe who consults such Wikipedia articles just assumes they are accurate and objective, when in reality many times they are neither. More Spanish people with a good knowledge of genetics should get involved in such Wikipedia articles and correct a lot of this misinformation.

Thanks much... I'm hardly surprised. You have to wonder if these people are not escapees from mental institutions. Again, I get back to the point I have repeatedly made: the general public is poorly educated and easily duped by this rubbish. BTW, Wikipedia has demonstrated it is grossly incompetent when it comes to site management.

Wilhelm
29-01-10, 03:35
Norway 0/556
In another recent study [3] on Norwegians, an L2 Sub-Saharan African sequence was found in the sample of 74 Norwegians (1.4% Sub-Saharan admixture).

[ 3]. Giuseppe Passarino et al., Different genetic components in the Norwegian population revealed by the analysis of mtDNA and Y chromosome polymorphisms, European Journal of Human Genetics10, 521 - 529 (23 Aug 2002)

^ lynx ^
29-01-10, 03:49
http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/102BAE79-9942-4105-BA33-1EF86929B267/0/LondonResultsMtdna_b.jpg

I find the source article of this map btw.

http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/English/Learning/Learningonline/features/general/excavating_ourselves.htm

Cambrius (The Red)
29-01-10, 19:26
http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/102BAE79-9942-4105-BA33-1EF86929B267/0/LondonResultsMtdna_b.jpg
I find the source article of this map btw.
http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/English/Learning/Learningonline/features/general/excavating_ourselves.htm

Im sure this has been superseded by more recent studies.

Wilhelm
29-01-10, 20:56
Here is a another mtDNA map, it's old though :

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/9600/4v6nh4x.gif

Aytin
12-03-10, 06:55
Suprise!Suprise! I know this will hurt some bloody feelings :( , but I found a study that said only 0.00% of Spaniards have L (sample size 686)
sources

:Human mitochondrial DNA as a molecular tool for population studies; the case of North Morocco:

Drac
12-03-10, 16:27
Suprise!Suprise! I know this will hurt some bloody feelings :( , but I found a study that said only 0.00% of Spaniards have L (sample size 686)
sources

:Human mitochondrial DNA as a molecular tool for population studies; the case of North Morocco:

Thanks for that reference. The study can be found here:

http://biotech-events.ifrance.com/Conferences-2006.html

The authors separated the region of Andalusia, in Southern Spain, from the rest of the country. No L mtDNA was found in the 686 non-Andalusian Spanish sample, and only 1.9% was found among the 158 Andalusian sample. If we "pool" all the samples together (686 + 158 = 844) that gives a total frequency of 0.35% for the whole country (a lower frequency than other studies have found for places like Finland, Albania, Italy, Germany, etc.)

Gee, I wonder if our Brazillian troll "friend" (or any of his equally dishonest buddies who have hijacked the "African Admixture" joke-of-an-article) will rush to WikiPedia to put this data? LOL! Methinks that such a thing is not on the priority list of their transparent agenda.

^ lynx ^
12-03-10, 20:54
Here's the direct link: http://biotech-events.ifrance.com/CONFERENCES2006/037%20LOPEZ_PEREZ.pdf

Good luck to whoever want to put this study on wikipedia. :)

Wilhelm
12-03-10, 21:53
Thanks Aytin, it's good to see the truth prevail.

Cambrius (The Red)
13-03-10, 03:02
Here's the direct link: http://biotech-events.ifrance.com/CONFERENCES2006/037%20LOPEZ_PEREZ.pdf

Good luck to whoever want to put this study on wikipedia. :)

Oh yes, no kidding... :laughing:

Cambrius (The Red)
13-03-10, 03:03
My thanks as well Aytin.