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JackMack
12-06-09, 20:22
This is a very interesting article I found and I would like to have more input. I'm not sure as to the scientific validity but the observations are worthy of comment.


European Genetic Admixtures: Y-DNA (http://ethnicgenome.wordpress.com/2009/03/05/european-genetic-admixtures-y-dna/) March 5, 2009


This post is a continuation of “Mapping out the borders of whiteness (http://ethnicgenome.wordpress.com/2009/03/03/mapping-out-the-borders-of-whiteness/)“. If you haven’t read it, you probably should to understand this more clearly here.
The following classifications aren’t hard facts. A scientist would frankly laugh at them because all of these haplogroups appear among all European and Near Eastern peoples.
For example, R1b is generally thought of as West European where 60-90% of people belong to this haplogroup. In Central Europe (Germany, Czech Republic, continental Italy) the frequency is about 40%.
But we see the same ~40% frequency of R1b among Armenians, Ossetians and Jordanians in the Dead Sea region, which is higher than among Swedes, Norwegians and Sicilians.
It also present in significant numbers throughout the Near East (from 4% in UAE to 16% in Turkey) and Eastern Europe (from 2% among Ukrainians to 15% among Bulgarians).
As I’ve said before, haplogroups can be split further and are somewhat different from region to region. But the differences aren’t radically different and differences within a haplogroup are frankly still small enough to be placed in the same haplogroup.
With that said, you can classify certain haplogroups as being most common in particular regions. That is what the following will attempt to do.
EUROPEAN HAPLOGROUPS
R1b: Western Europe (Celtic, Basque, Italic, Frisian, Saxon)
R1a: Eastern Europe (Slavic, Aryan)
I1: Northern Europe (Germanic, Scandinavian)
I2a: Southern Slavic (Balkans and southwestern Ukraine. I2a1 is also present in large numbers in Sardinia, Basques.)
I2b: Western Europe (Germany, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium and England)
MEDITERRANEAN AND MIDDLE EASTERN HAPLOGROUPS:
J1: Arabs, Jews.
J2: Spanish, Italian, Sicilian, Greek, Anatolian Turkish, Jewish, and some French and Portuguese.
T: Small haplogroup that is most present among Egyptians, Iraqis, Serbs and the Spanish. Despite small presence anywhere and especially in Europe, it was the haplogroup of President Thomas Jefferson, Russia’s Czar Nicholas II and several English royals.
G: Most present in Caucasus (southern Russia), which is culturally Middle Eastern. About 60% of Ossetians; 30% of Georgians, Kabardinians and Balkarians.
E1b1b: North Africa, Jews and southern Europe in the same regions as J2, but especially Greece and Serbia at 27% and 24%. (Most of E haplogroup migrated back from the Near East to Africa, but E1b1b stayed above Sahara and spread into Europe. It is now the most common of Mediterranean haplogroups among most European ethnicities.)
ASIAN AND AMERINDIAN (NON-CAUCASIAN) HAPLOGROUPS
N: First appeared in Southeast Asia. Its highest frequency occurs among the Finnic and Baltic peoples of northern and eastern Europe, the Ob-Ugric and Northern Samoyedic peoples of western Siberia, and the Siberian Turkic-speaking Yakuts.
Q: It is the dominant haplogroup among Native Americans. Also highly present among some Siberian Mongoloids like the Kets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q_%28Y-DNA%29). (Their language has been linked to the Na-Dene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na-Den%C3%A9_languages) languages among Indians in Western Canada and Alaska.)
European populations have only small traces of sub-Saharan haplogroups, so I will not include them here.
For simplicity’s sake, let’s combine haplogroups into European, Mediterranean/Middle Eastern and Asian/Amerindian.
The most European people are, not surprisingly, those on the British islands, particularly the Scots. They are 95% European, 4.5% Mediterranean and 0.5% non-white. The English are 92% – 7.5% – 0.5%. The Welch are 91.5% – 8.5% – 0%.
A little more surprising is the near complete lack of non-European genes among the Poles who are 94.5% – 5.5% – 0%.
This is somewhat surprising because the people with the most non-Caucasian Y-DNA are those around Poland. Russia is 67.5% – 8% – 24.5%. Estonia is 58.5% – 7.5% – 34.5%. Latvia is 59% – 1.5% – 39.5%. Lithuania is 56% – 1.5% – 42.5%.
And the Finns are the only people in Europe or the Near East who are mostly non-Caucasian at 40% – 1% – 59%. In fact, the Finns have so much non-Caucasian DNA that they could be classified as non-white at first look. But as I explained (http://ethnicgenome.wordpress.com/2009/03/03/mapping-out-the-borders-of-whiteness/), their non-white Y-DNA is located mostly in the northern half of the country, so the south should be regarded as white and the north as mixed race.
Sweden has a lot less non-Caucasian Y-DNA at 88.5% – 2.5% – 7.5%.
The most Mediterranean/Middle Eastern people are the Greeks at 39.5% – 60.5% – 0%. Italy is 58% – 42% – 0 %. We also see a strong Mediterranean/Middle Eastern genetic influence in the Balkans and southeast Europe. Serbia is 57% – 43% – 0% and Hungary is 65.5% – 31% – 3.5%, while the Muslim Albania is 48% – 52% – 0%.
Interestingly, Portugal has a lot more J2 and E1b1b than Spain (but on the mtDNA side, Spain has the most non-Caucausian DNA at 23%). Portugal is 61.5% – 38.5% – 0%, while Spain is 79% – 14% – 0%.
Similarly interesting is the much higher presence of Mediterranean/Middle Eastern haplogroups among the Austrians (69% – 30% – 1%) than among the Germans (85.5% – 13.5% – 1%). The French are somewhere between them at 80% – 20% – 0%.
· I will do another post soon on the mtDNA, which is a bit more complicated for Caucasians than Y-DNA.

There are a lot of people interested in race issues who suggest that Sephardic Jews are not-white. They do so without any understanding of Sephardic DNA. In fact, it is this kind of talk that leads Noel Ignatiev to write books about the Irish becoming white and that being white has nothing to do with biology, but is instead a political category of people we like and people we dislike. Either a race is to be defined based on genetic information or race is a social construct that doesn’t exist. Inadvertently, these “race realists” are actually promoting the idea that race is nothing more than a political classification.
There is simply no genetic basis for their claim. There is just an emotional desire to classify those we like at the moment as an “in-group” and others as an “out-group”.
Race is determined by genetic clusters (http://ethnicgenome.wordpress.com/2009/02/28/genetic-clusters/).
Looking at haplogroups, we find the same mtDNA (materinal) haplogroups in both Europe and the Middle East with similar distribution patterns. H is most common haplogroup in Europe. It’s a less common in the Near East, but is still the most common one there as well. When it appears in lesser numbers, it is “replaced” by a higher distribution of other haplogroups which are also very common in Europe and not found anywhere else outside Europe and the Middle East.
The exception here are the Arabs because 38% of their mtDNA comes from haplogroups outside those common among whites (http://ethnicgenome.wordpress.com/2009/03/01/mtdna-white-eve-had-only-six-daughters/), so they should be classified as mixed race (http://ethnicgenome.wordpress.com/2009/03/03/mapping-out-the-borders-of-whiteness/) people. But let me repeat it once more: this is done not because of the slight variations within Caucasian haplogroups, but because of such a significant outside gene flow into Arab communities.
In Y-DNA, the haplogroups do tend to bunch up in certain parts of Europe, but again, southern Europe (J2) is more like the Near East (J1) than to I and R haplogroups in other parts of Europe. (additionally, the mostly East European I is closer to the mostly Mediterranean J than to the mostly West European R.)
Were the Near East something other than white, then so too should be the Roman Empire and Ancient Greece (both known to be J2), as well as parts of Portugal, Spain, France, Serbia, Bulgaria, and so on. Needless to say that would be revolutionary conclusion.
Those Middle Easterners, therefore, who do not have significant amounts of DNA outside the Caucasian haplogroups should be classified together with other whites.
It is only a completely uneducated person who is governed by his emotions and not by facts who would classify two people with, for instance, H1 haplogroup mtDNA and R1b haplogroup Y-DNA, as members of separate races. Even if H haplogroup in Europe and in the Near East have slight variations, and they do, these variations pale in comparison to the differences with haplogroups common among blacks, Orientals, Amerindians, native Australians.
An ethnicity is classified within a particular race based on which haplogroups they belong to.
When it comes to the Y-DNA, the profile of most Sephardic Jews is very similar to that of Ashkenazi Jews and other Mediterranean Europeans.
Depending on a study, 30%-40% of Sephardim are in haplogroup J (according to Wikipedia, 12% J1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_%28Y-DNA%29) and 29% J2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_%28Y-DNA%29)) and another 30% in haplogroup R1b (most common in Portugal and Spain). About 11.5% are haplogroup I, a northern European group. And a small amount is the mostly East European and Scandinavian R1a.
Another 19% is haplogroup E1b1b which is observed in significant frequencies in Europe and western Asia. It is particularly common in southern Europe and the Balkans. We find it in both northern and southern Italy, all of Spain and Greece, and southern France, as well as in smaller amounts all throughout Europe as far north as the Scandinavia.
Haplogroup E probably originated in the Near East, but most of it migrated back into Africa, both north and south of Sahara. E1b1b, however, stayed in the Near East or migrated into Europe. Rather than being an African influence onto the Middle East, it is the opposite: E is the Middle Eastern influence on Africa.
According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-4), “Most Sub-Saharan Africans belong to subclades of E other than E1b1b, while most non-Africans who belong to haplogroup E belong to its E1b1b subclade.” (Citing Fulvio Cruciani et al, Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E1b1b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa, Am. J. Hum. Genet, p. 74)
We therefore see the Sephardic Y-DNA profile to be very similar to Europeans along the Mediterranean, as well as to the Ashkenazim. The only major difference with the Ashkenazim is that rather than having about a third of their Y-DNA in haplogroup R1b (Western Europe), the Ashkenazim are about evenly split (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups) between R1b and R1a (Eastern Europe and Scandinavia).
This difference hardly seems significant enough to classify Sephardim and Ashkenazim as different races. Most West Europeans would presumably be very surprised if they were told that having more of their (R1b) than East European (R1a) Y-DNA makes someone non-white.
But what about the mtDNA.
Here the differences between Sephardim and Europeans are even less stark.
The primary Caucasoid mtDNA haplogroups are H, J, K, T, V and U (all of which derived from haplogroup R), as well as I, W and X. These are relatively evenly split throughout Europe and the Near East. Though some haplogroups are more (or less) common among certain ethnicities, the differences are merely in proportion of the same mtDNA haplogroups.
Studies of Sephardic mtDNA (http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0002062.t002&representation=PNG_S) conducted among several communities revealed that most to have Caucasian mtDNA. We may discuss the proportions of various haplogroups, but that they are the same haplogroups is an established fact.
The obvious exceptions are Ethiopian and Indian Jews, who are almost definitely just converts to Judaism. Ethiopian Jews have the same profile as other Ethiopians. Indian Jews have a small amount of H and U haplogroups, which may be from the original Jews who converted these Indians to Judaism.
Yemenites also seem to be a mix of various groups, including Negroids. Over 8% are part of the predominantly African L haplogroup, which explains their darker skin and often times curly hair.
While the Yemenites are recognized as Sephardic Jews, neither Indians nor Ethiopians would normally be classified as such, except by the people who use the term Sephardic to mean any non-Ashkenazi Jew.
The other traditionally Sephardic-Mizrahi groups belong to the same haplogroups as do the Europeans (with no more than usual non-Caucasian gene flow).
Azerbaijani Jews are predominantly (59%) haplogroup J, which is evenly spread in same numbers in both Europe (12%) and the Near East (11%).
Georgian Jews are predominantly (58%) part of haplogroup HV, which originated in southern Italy and now common in Western Europe. It is the ancestor haplogroup of H (and also V), which is the most common one among Europeans.
Iranian Jews are more diverse in their genetic makeup, but it is still Caucasian, with H, J, U and T being the most common groups.
Iraqi Jews are similar, but have 7.4% of their population in the W haplogroup. This is not uncommon for Europeans either, however, despite the fact that this haplogroup is more common in South Asia.
Libyan and Turkish Jews are mostly H and X haplogroups. X is present in Europe so much that Bryan Sykes included it as one of the 7 Daughters of Eve (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=2&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FSeven-Daughters-Eve-Science-Ancestry%2Fdp%2F0393020185&ei=QCauSY6bJIjTnQe2va3CBg&usg=AFQjCNH3uxWh4cQU740DsHm7_ugUVkq3gw&sig2=Vt0ZQQcfl0f2KEWxAnekNQ) for the white race. It is not a strictly white haplogroup, however, and is found (http://ethnicgenome.wordpress.com/2009/03/01/haplogroup-x-the-near-universal-mtdna/) in Asia as well as in the Americas. The founders of the group were likely Israeli Druze.
Moroccan Jews show high frequency of H, just as Europeans, though in slightly lower numbers.
Of course all of these haplogroups could be further subdivided and people belonging to the same haplogroup could look somewhat different.
But if race is to be defined as by genetic clusters (http://ethnicgenome.wordpress.com/2009/02/28/genetic-clusters/), then it would only make sense that people in the same haplogroups are part of the same race. After all, if I and R Y-DNA haplogroups are part of the same race, it’s hard to argue that J1 and J2 are different races.
Sephardim are not the same kind of “white” as Hungarians or Irishmen. But Hungarians and Irishmen themselves aren’t identical either.
The lack of significant non-Caucasian haplogroups makes people white. By that standard, Sephardim are white.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-09, 06:09
Which study concluded that Spain's Other mt-DNA reaches 23%? I read something recently that the mt-DNA "Other" category in Spain amounts to only 1 - 2%.

Additionally, I suspect that the Near East Y-DNA totals for Portugal may be too high, as the biggest concentrations were recorded in the south of the country and the island of Madeira. These areas amount to a mere 8% of the total population.

r1bdude
13-08-09, 06:00
All the actors you see in the movies are R1b from John Wayne to George Clooney to Pierce Brosnan. You might want to start at the idealized version of a white man and find out what his haplotype is and his ethnic background is . That will give you clues as to the true origins of the " white race". Wikpedia will help it gives you their bios.

Chris
11-09-09, 18:34
What's fascinating about this is the concept of 'white'. I'm still 95% baffled by genetics, but there seems to be a consensus that if for example, a Chinese man came to Europe and married a white woman and all the offspring married whites, within 10 generations, there would be no trace of Chinese characteristics - just the Y DNA trail.

A famous English chef - Jamie Oliver - disclosed last week that his paternal line six generations ago was a Sudanese. To look at the bloke, he's 100% Essex lad.

So - what's 'white'? As I say - fascinating.

Wilhelm
02-10-09, 16:54
J2: Spanish, Italian, Sicilian, Greek, Anatolian Turkish, Jewish, and some French and Portuguese.
Spanish ??
Sounds very strange, according to most studies I have read, Spanish have very little of J2, comparable with countries like Germany or Denmark

Marianne
02-10-09, 17:19
Spanish ??
Sounds very strange, according to most studies I have read, Spanish have very little of J2, comparable with countries like Germany or Denmark

Well according to the Y-Dna table of eupedia Spain has 4% J2, Denmark 3% and Germany 4.5% so you are kinda right. Portugal has double than Spain 8% and Austria 12%. Sicily has the biggest, 26.5%

Wilhelm
02-10-09, 18:29
Well according to the Y-Dna table of eupedia Spain has 4% J2, Denmark 3% and Germany 4.5% so you are kinda right. Portugal has double than Spain 8% and Austria 12%. Sicily has the biggest, 26.5%

:thinking:

Yes, I don't know why they say it's typical of Spain, when clearly it's not

Belisana
23-10-09, 18:21
por qué será por qué será?

Cambrius (The Red)
23-10-09, 23:15
Because you are dealing with codswallop "science" or possibly something totally fabricated. Sometimes the wrong people fool around with genetics. It's totally nuts...

Cambrius (The Red)
23-10-09, 23:16
:thinking:

Yes, I don't know why they say it's typical of Spain, when clearly it's not

Because some moron wrote that it is when it clearly is NOT. Correct science does not lie and Spain is very low in both J1 and J2.

Wilhelm
23-10-09, 23:51
It is not true that Jews (wether Ashkenazi or Sephardic) have the same Y-DNA and mtDNA profiles as european mediterraneans. That's nonsense.
Sephardic Jews have between 15.4 and 28.6% of J2, while Spaniards have around 4% of J2.
If we talk about J1, in Spain and Greece is almost non-existant.
On the other hand, a considerable percent of Jews and other Levants belong to J1.

J1 :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f2/Distribution_Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.svg/800px-Distribution_Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.svg.png

http://www.genetree.com/dna/education/Y_DNA/density_maps/j1-m267.jpg

About the mtDNA and Y-DNA of Jews :

Interestingly, Nebel et al (2001) also found that the Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH), considered the most definitive Jewish haplotype, was found among 10.1% of Kurdish Jews, 7.6% of Ashkenazim, 6.4% of Sephardim, 2.1% of Palestianian Arabs, and 1.1% of Kurds. The CMH and the most frequent Kurdish haplotype (MKH) were the same on five markers (out of six) and very close on the other marker. The MKH was shared by 9.5% of Kurds, 2.6% of Sephardim, 2.0% of Kurdish Jews, 1.4% of Palestinian Arabs, and 1.3% of Ashkenazim. The general conclusion is that these similarities result mostly from the sharing of ancient genetic patterns, and not from more recent admixture between the groups (p. 1099). Rabbi Yaakov Kleiman has suggested that the CMH is “likely the marker of the Jews’ and Arabs’ shared Patriarch, Abraham” (2004: 20), but much more analysis is needed on the CMH in populations throughout the world. In this study, Kurdish Jews were found to be close to Kurds, but so were Ashkenazim and Sephardim, suggesting that much if not most of the genetic similarity between Jewish and Kurds is from ancient times [6].

"A study published by the National Academy of Sciences found that "the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population", and suggested that "most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora".[56] Researchers expressed surprise at the remarkable genetic uniformity they found among modern Jews, no matter where the diaspora has become dispersed around the world.[56]"

Other Y-chromosome findings show that the world's Jewish communities are closely related to Kurds, Syrians and Palestinians.[62] [59] Skorecki and colleague wrote that "the extremely close affinity of Jewish and non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations observed ... supports the hypothesis of a common Middle Eastern origin".[59] According to another study of the same year, more than 70% of Jewish men and half of the Arab men (inhabitants of Israel and the territories only) whose DNA was studied inherited their Y-chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors who lived in the region within the last few thousand years. The results are consistent with the Biblical account of Jews and Arabs having a common ancestor. About two-thirds of Israeli Arabs and Arabs in the territories and a similar proportion of Israeli Jews are the descendants of at least three common ancestors who lived in the Middle East in the Neolithic period. However, the Palestinian Arab clade includes two Arab modal haplotypes which are found at only very low frequency among Jews, reflecting divergence and/or large scale admixture from non-local populations to the Palestinians. [63]




Race is determined by genetic clusters.
I don't know if Sephardic or Ashkenazi Jews are white or not, but certainly they do not belong into the European clusters :

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/420/priceplotsm4.png


http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/295/plot2uz3.jpg

AJA = Ashkenazi Jews American
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/105/tianplotod0.png




Interestingly, Portugal has a lot more J2 and E1b1b than Spain (but on the mtDNA side, Spain has the most non-Caucausian DNA at 23%). Portugal is 61.5% – 38.5% – 0%, while Spain is 79% – 14% – 0%.
Here we go again with the magic 23% figure.
According to Maciamo, Spain and Portugal have 7%, like in Denmark or Wales, because this 23% inlcudes Latin Americans.
Here you have mtDNA maps of Europe from different studies .
Now tell me where the hell are those 23%


http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/7863/eurmtdna.png


http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/102BAE79-9942-4105-BA33-1EF86929B267/0/LondonResultsMtdna_b.jpg


http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/6343/mtdnamapworld.jpg

Wilhelm
24-10-09, 02:24
oh, now I see.
This blog of genome project is total rubbish. This guy has clearly an agenda.
He claims Sicily is 10% Sub-Saharian , among other things :useless:

Cambrius (The Red)
24-10-09, 16:45
oh, now I see.
This blog of genome project is total rubbish. This guy has clearly an agenda.
He claims Sicily is 10% Sub-Saharian , among other things :useless:

The world is filled with these racist sociopaths who spread lies and exaggeration concerning the genetics of certain people. They even lie about phenotypes. As you know, ANYTHING can be published these days. Careful who and what you quote...

Cambrius (The Red)
24-10-09, 16:52
For the sake of integrity, I suggest that all incorrect, possibly fabricated figures on regional genetics be removed from this platform. Lies and exaggeration have absolutely no business on any serious website.

Cambrius (The Red)
24-10-09, 17:00
It is not true that Jews (wether Ashkenazi or Sephardic) have the same Y-DNA and mtDNA profiles as european mediterraneans. That's nonsense.
Sephardic Jews have between 15.4 and 28.6% of J2, while Spaniards have around 4% of J2.
If we talk about J1, in Spain and Greece is almost non-existant.
On the other hand, a considerable percent of Jews and other Levants belong to J1.

J1 :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f2/Distribution_Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.svg/800px-Distribution_Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.svg.png

http://www.genetree.com/dna/education/Y_DNA/density_maps/j1-m267.jpg

About the mtDNA and Y-DNA of Jews :

Interestingly, Nebel et al (2001) also found that the Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH), considered the most definitive Jewish haplotype, was found among 10.1% of Kurdish Jews, 7.6% of Ashkenazim, 6.4% of Sephardim, 2.1% of Palestianian Arabs, and 1.1% of Kurds. The CMH and the most frequent Kurdish haplotype (MKH) were the same on five markers (out of six) and very close on the other marker. The MKH was shared by 9.5% of Kurds, 2.6% of Sephardim, 2.0% of Kurdish Jews, 1.4% of Palestinian Arabs, and 1.3% of Ashkenazim. The general conclusion is that these similarities result mostly from the sharing of ancient genetic patterns, and not from more recent admixture between the groups (p. 1099). Rabbi Yaakov Kleiman has suggested that the CMH is “likely the marker of the Jews’ and Arabs’ shared Patriarch, Abraham” (2004: 20), but much more analysis is needed on the CMH in populations throughout the world. In this study, Kurdish Jews were found to be close to Kurds, but so were Ashkenazim and Sephardim, suggesting that much if not most of the genetic similarity between Jewish and Kurds is from ancient times [6].

"A study published by the National Academy of Sciences found that "the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population", and suggested that "most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora".[56] Researchers expressed surprise at the remarkable genetic uniformity they found among modern Jews, no matter where the diaspora has become dispersed around the world.[56]"

Other Y-chromosome findings show that the world's Jewish communities are closely related to Kurds, Syrians and Palestinians.[62] [59] Skorecki and colleague wrote that "the extremely close affinity of Jewish and non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations observed ... supports the hypothesis of a common Middle Eastern origin".[59] According to another study of the same year, more than 70% of Jewish men and half of the Arab men (inhabitants of Israel and the territories only) whose DNA was studied inherited their Y-chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors who lived in the region within the last few thousand years. The results are consistent with the Biblical account of Jews and Arabs having a common ancestor. About two-thirds of Israeli Arabs and Arabs in the territories and a similar proportion of Israeli Jews are the descendants of at least three common ancestors who lived in the Middle East in the Neolithic period. However, the Palestinian Arab clade includes two Arab modal haplotypes which are found at only very low frequency among Jews, reflecting divergence and/or large scale admixture from non-local populations to the Palestinians. [63]




I don't know if Sephardic or Ashkenazi Jews are white or not, but certainly they do not belong into the European clusters :

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/420/priceplotsm4.png


http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/295/plot2uz3.jpg

AJA = Ashkenazi Jews American
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/105/tianplotod0.png



Here we go again with the magic 23% figure.
According to Maciamo, Spain and Portugal have 7%, like in Denmark or Wales, because this 23% inlcudes Latin Americans.
Here you have mtDNA maps of Europe from different studies .
Now tell me where the hell are those 23%


http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/7863/eurmtdna.png


http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/102BAE79-9942-4105-BA33-1EF86929B267/0/LondonResultsMtdna_b.jpg


http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/6343/mtdnamapworld.jpg

Exactly, the samplings were NON REPRESENTATIVE of the Spaniard population. The methodology was totally flawed. ONLY native origin Spaniards should have been used (apparently that did not happen). It was absurd to include native South Americans or mixed race subjects in the research study. Imagine if you sampled Black Africans and mulattos in, say, a British genetics project; care to speculate on the results and the level of controversy?

Spaniard
26-10-09, 12:34
The world is filled with these racist sociopaths who spread lies and exaggeration concerning the genetics of certain people. They even lie about phenotypes. As you know, ANYTHING can be published these days. Careful who and what you quote...

Hi guys! Yes I can confirm that this guy at the GENOME PROJECT has a clear racist nordicist agenda!. He is trying to manipulate the genetic data to give the impression that southern europeans are miscegenated peoples and less european than the northern europeans. He particularly is very interested in giving the impression that Spain is half moorish and half jewish!. He should be immediately banned!.

I have been posting my counter-arguments and he constantly erases them :petrified:!. But I will not give up and continue posting them :laughing:!. Lets see who is the most stubborn...!.

This is what I post and what he constantly removes:

"You present the “european haplogroups” and mention mainly northern and central european countries, when there are southern european countries like Spain with very high percentages on those european haplogroups (70% R1b in Spain). Then you present your so called “mediterranean and middle eastern” haplogroups and you only mention mediterranean countries, when there are a lot of northern and central european countries with much higher proportions of those “mediterranean” haplogroups than some mediterranean countries like Spain. For example:


Although J2 is 4% in Spain, but is 3,5% in England, 4,5% in Germany, 6% in Switzerland, 6% in the Netherlands, 6% in Czech republic, 7% in Hungary,10% in Ukraine, 10% in serbia, 12 % in Austria or 24% in Romania, you say that J2 is only present in Spanish, Italian, Sicilian, Greek, Anatolian Turkish, Jewish, and some French and Portuguese ¿¿¿???


Although T is 1% in Spain (very low and negligible figure) and you can find at this same percentage contries like: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France , Germany, Hungary, Netherlands and Wales and at much higher percentages in countries like Italy or Greece you say that it is most present among Egyptians, Iraqis, Serbs and the Spanish ¿¿¿???. Are you clustering spaniards with Egyptians and Iraquies?


Sorry but your classification of haplogroups doesnt make any sense moreover if you are trying to imply that “Mediterranean” haplogroups arent “european” at all!!

Spain is not a mediterranean country from a genetic standpoint although it is mediterranean from a cultural standpoint.


Talking about genetics, Spain is mainly a western atlantic country directly linked with other atlantic peoples like irish, scottish, welsh, french bretons, and portuguese and with some mediterranean influences.


Remember that Iberia is the birthplace of the cromagnon man and hence very paleolithic and probably spaniards are one of the most ancient european peoples that in Europe exist as Iberia was a glacial refuge from which the rest of Europe was populated."

Cambrius (The Red)
26-10-09, 16:25
Excellent post. Pathological liars with sick agendas are everywhere it seems. You can rest assured that, in the end, these types will end up in the dust-bin of history; like Carleton Coon, the disgraced, delusional and racist "physical anthropologist".

Wilhelm
26-10-09, 16:45
Excellent post. Pathological liars with sick agendas are everywhere it seems. You can rest assured that, in the end, these types will end up in the dust-bin of history; like Carleton Coon, the disgraced, delusional and racist "physical anthropologist".
Yes, but the problem is that a lot of people end up believing all this pathological liars and amateurs like Coon, while the scientific truth is being hidden

Cambrius (The Red)
26-10-09, 16:57
Yes, but the problem is that a lot of people end up believing all this pathological liars and amateurs like Coon, while the scientific truth is being hidden

The truth over time will prevail. Many people, especially in the U.S., are very badly educated and have no ability to judge anything critically. Heavens, there are characters in America who don't even know that London is the capital of the U.K. ... LOL! They make judgments about ethnicities based on ridiculous media stereotypes. Educated people must keep pressing the truth...

Cambrius (The Red)
26-10-09, 16:59
Again, eliminate any questionable genetic information on this site. It is a matter of integrity.

Maciamo
26-10-09, 22:17
Again, eliminate any questionable genetic information on this site. It is a matter of integrity.

Do you mean this site - or are you still talking about that Genome Project blog ? :wary2:

I try my best to keep everything objective on this site. :satisfied:

Texreiver
29-10-09, 17:49
The truth over time will prevail. Many people, especially in the U.S., are very badly educated and have no ability to judge anything critically. Heavens, there are characters in America who don't even know that London is the capital of the U.K. ... LOL! They make judgments about ethnicities based on ridiculous media stereotypes. Educated people must keep pressing the truth...

Yes, educated people must keep pressing the truth.

As you brought up the media, I've noticed that television shows like to do "man-on-the-street" interviews asking simple questions and editing out the ones who demonstrate command of the facts. That's why we see the people who think "Kofi Annan" is a Starbuck's drink.

One truth is that a common practice of pseudo-intellectuals, who rightfully lack confidence in their own intellectual abilities, like to step on other people to get a sense of being "higher," "smarter" or "better."

Let's press another truth: Portugal has among the lowest rates of adult functional literacy in the Western World (48% adult functional illiteracy versus 14% in the U.S.). Apparently, half of Portuguese adults have never read a book.

Perhaps one should read a little more and not watch quite so much television.
TR

Cambrius (The Red)
29-10-09, 18:19
Yes, educated people must keep pressing the truth.
As you brought up the media, I've noticed that television shows like to do "man-on-the-street" interviews asking simple questions and editing out the ones who demonstrate command of the facts. That's why we see the people who think "Kofi Annan" is a Starbuck's drink.
One truth is that a common practice of pseudo-intellectuals, who rightfully lack confidence in their own intellectual abilities, like to step on other people to get a sense of being "higher," "smarter" or "better."
Let's press another truth: Portugal has among the lowest rates of adult functional literacy in the Western World (48% adult functional illiteracy versus 14% in the U.S.). Apparently, half of Portuguese adults have never read a book.
Perhaps one should read a little more and not watch quite so much television.
TR

Let's clear something up, no one, as far as I can see, is stepping on people here. Certainly I'm not.

There are certain countries where the population lacks a grasp of common knowledge, be it the U.S. or any other nation. I only mentioned the U.S. as an example because I was raised and educated there, all the way through my PHd. What is alarming is that the U.S. population is supposed to be well-educated (it is not compared to a good number of Western European and some Asian countries) and you have people, some with college degrees, who oftentimes demonstrate a rather inadequate understanding of a variety of elemental subjects. Please don't take offense...

Wilhelm
29-10-09, 20:32
Yes, educated people must keep pressing the truth.

As you brought up the media, I've noticed that television shows like to do "man-on-the-street" interviews asking simple questions and editing out the ones who demonstrate command of the facts. That's why we see the people who think "Kofi Annan" is a Starbuck's drink.

One truth is that a common practice of pseudo-intellectuals, who rightfully lack confidence in their own intellectual abilities, like to step on other people to get a sense of being "higher," "smarter" or "better."

Let's press another truth: Portugal has among the lowest rates of adult functional literacy in the Western World (48% adult functional illiteracy versus 14% in the U.S.). Apparently, half of Portuguese adults have never read a book.

Perhaps one should read a little more and not watch quite so much television.
TR

Cambria Red has reason when he says Americans are very ignorant when it comes to RACE and ETHNICITIES
Most Americans I have known think that Hispanic or Latin are races.
They don't make the difference between ethnicities and races, they have just lots of ignorance and stereotypes
They think that spaniards, french or mediterraneans are not white, some even think that Spain and Portugal are in South America :useless:

Catchabus
03-11-09, 20:30
The truth over time will prevail. Many people, especially in the U.S., are very badly educated and have no ability to judge anything critically. Heavens, there are characters in America who don't even know that London is the capital of the U.K. ... LOL! They make judgments about ethnicities based on ridiculous media stereotypes. Educated people must keep pressing the truth...

Aaah, it seems you are making the same type of judgment based on stereotypes. While I do not necessarily disagree that many Americans have less global awareness and some politicians—mainly on the right wing—appear like complete idiots pandering to the lowest common denominator, it’s not so cut and dried. One thing is true, the U.S. has many of the world’s best universities.

Having said that, I appreciate your fervor for exposing falsehoods and seeking the truth, which is vital for science to progress.

Maciamo
04-11-09, 14:17
One thing is true, the U.S. has many of the world’s best universities.

This is quite true. But not all students attending them or professors teaching there are American ! The superiority of US universities mostly has to do with better funding (more private than public, unlike in Europe) and better management/marketing (again, because they are private businesses rather than governmental organisations).

Cambrius (The Red)
04-11-09, 15:10
Aaah, it seems you are making the same type of judgment based on stereotypes. While I do not necessarily disagree that many Americans have less global awareness and some politicians—mainly on the right wing—appear like complete idiots pandering to the lowest common denominator, it’s not so cut and dried. One thing is true, the U.S. has many of the world’s best universities.

Having said that, I appreciate your fervor for exposing falsehoods and seeking the truth, which is vital for science to progress.


Thank you, sir.

Catchabus
04-11-09, 19:30
This is quite true. But not all students attending them or professors teaching there are American ! The superiority of US universities mostly has to do with better funding (more private than public, unlike in Europe) and better management/marketing (again, because they are private businesses rather than governmental organisations).

I agree, though some state schools such as California, Texas and those in the Midwest are also well regarded.

As for the foreign students that is true as well, though there seems to be a change in that many now have no desire to remain in the US but instead want to return to their countries, which is a detriment to the US economically. In the past, many intellectuals came to work not just study.

Catchabus
04-11-09, 19:31
Thank you, sir.

You're quite welcome.

[Trying to get my post count above 10:grin:)

Cambrius (The Red)
04-11-09, 20:28
You're quite welcome.

[Trying to get my post count above 10:grin:)

I hear you... :good_job:

Cambrius (The Red)
04-11-09, 20:29
I agree, though some state schools such as California, Texas and those in the Midwest are also well regarded.

As for the foreign students that is true as well, though there seems to be a change in that many now have no desire to remain in the US but instead want to return to their countries, which is a detriment to the US economically. In the past, many intellectuals came to work not just study.

Berkeley and U. Michigan are two of the best in the world.

Wilhelm
04-11-09, 23:30
Maybe the US has the best universities, but , the overrall education level is much better in Europe.
And, well, half of the students and professors of the top US universities are foreigners.