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View Full Version : Where do the Cro-Magon 's descendants live now?



Haganus
17-08-09, 00:34
The Westeuropean Cro-Magnons and Aurignacs were the first and great
rockpainters. Even it is thought that they were the ancestors of the
Germanic peoples.

But what has happened with their descendants? Do they live in Ireland
or Scandinavia? It is thought that men with haplogroup R1b are descendants of the Cro-Magnon men, but now it has been discovered that
it was a mistake.

Maciamo
17-08-09, 10:02
Their DNA lives on in every European, even if at varying degrees. It is likely that the Cro-Magnons became Y-DNA haplogroup I and its subclades on the paternal side, and possibly most of the major haplogroups on the maternal side.
R1b is almost certainly not associated with Cro-Magnons.

Twilight
27-09-12, 03:12
Their DNA lives on in every European, even if at varying degrees. It is likely that the Cro-Magnons became Y-DNA haplogroup I and its subclades on the paternal side, and possibly most of the major haplogroups on the maternal side.
R1b is almost certainly not associated with Cro-Magnons.

Interesting is there a reasoning that R1b is not decended from Cro-Magnon and more importantly with haplogroups belong to the Homo sub-species for example Cro-Magnons, Neanderthal, Java, etc?

sparkey
27-09-12, 18:35
Interesting is there a reasoning that R1b is not decended from Cro-Magnon and more importantly with haplogroups belong to the Homo sub-species for example Cro-Magnons, Neanderthal, Java, etc?

The main rationale for suspecting that R1b is not related to the Cro-Magnons is that its European subclades, R1b-L11 and R1b-ht35, are too young (that is, not diverse enough) to date to the Cro-Magnons. Also, it has not been found in any ancient European samples before the latest Neolithic. Maciamo's R1b page (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml) is a good primer for alternate explanations of how R1b got to Europe (favoring the IE hypothesis in particular).

As for Cro-Magnons, Neanderthal, and Java... no extant haplogroups can be dated to the Neanderthals or homo erectus, so scratch those two off your list. "Cro-Magnon" is an unspecific term referring to a range of different Paleolithic Europeans. Although there may be some rare haplogroups that will turn out to also descend from Cro-Magnons (F of some sort, maybe?), the only modern Y-DNA haplogroup that I've seen dated and placed geographically to the Cro-Magnons with confidence is haplogroup I. Specifically, it dates well to Gravettian culture... Aurignacian is probably too early, although they're usually considered Cro-Magnon, as well.

Twilight
16-10-12, 21:40
Wow, I never thought about it way, thank you so much for the info :)

MOESAN
17-10-12, 11:37
The main rationale for suspecting that R1b is not related to the Cro-Magnons is that its European subclades, R1b-L11 and R1b-ht35, are too young (that is, not diverse enough) to date to the Cro-Magnons. Also, it has not been found in any ancient European samples before the latest Neolithic. Maciamo's R1b page (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml) is a good primer for alternate explanations of how R1b got to Europe (favoring the IE hypothesis in particular).

As for Cro-Magnons, Neanderthal, and Java... no extant haplogroups can be dated to the Neanderthals or homo erectus, so scratch those two off your list. "Cro-Magnon" is an unspecific term referring to a range of different Paleolithic Europeans. Although there may be some rare haplogroups that will turn out to also descend from Cro-Magnons (F of some sort, maybe?), the only modern Y-DNA haplogroup that I've seen dated and placed geographically to the Cro-Magnons with confidence is haplogroup I. Specifically, it dates well to Gravettian culture... Aurignacian is probably too early, although they're usually considered Cro-Magnon, as well.

that is right!
in fact, modern anthropologists when speaking about 'cro-magnon' type speak about a well defined phenotype whose individuals have been found for the most in S France and coastal Italy, with some others in remaining Europe - it is no more a cultural or a temporal reference - the others types as 'combe-capelle', 'chancelade', 'oberkassel', 'br√ľnn' 'predmost' (arrived later in W-Europe) are not considered as the same recent 'phylum' -
some modern fellows show the cranio-facial features of this well defined 'cromagnon' today, (atavism), in W Europe and N Europe more than in N-E Europe (Wales, W-France, Scandinavia, sometimes Italy and Spain) but they don't compose an homogenous population, only resurgences of these superficial features - I don't speak about the brachycephalized 'borreby', not to well defined and whose affinities are not well understood yet, for I know, even if a 'cromagnon' partial origin seams evident enough -

MOESAN
17-10-12, 11:50
as said by Maciamo and others, the problem of linking Y-HGs (males) and autosomals (conditioning external and internal phenotypes too) is that a male elite (more yet at ancient times upon scarce populations) can pass a lot of its Y-genes to descendants even if its autosomals finish drown in a sea of foreign ones inherited from the ruled population (mothers) -
for Y-R1b, even if we eliminate the Péleolithic hypothesis, we can't rule out the possibility of a Mesolithic arriving in central Europe for the datation of HGs is very unsure according to the early population size - the cut between occidental Y-R1b and the eastern ones and the geographical distribution of downstream HGs seams to me the signal of an ancient introduction in Europe of a samll group of people that vegetated long time there before undergo a huge and brutal growing (the agricultural shock maybe?) - I can't figure out an already big enough population of R1b arriving in Europe by the Donau mouth at Bronze Age giving birth to a similar scheme...