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Maciamo
21-09-09, 12:00
I am currently reading Nicholas Ostler's great book Empires of the Word: A Language History of the World (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0007118716?ie=UTF8&tag=eupedia-21&link_code=as3&camp=2506&creative=9298&creativeASIN=0007118716). The third chapter is dedicated to the languages of the early Middle Eastern civilizations. If there is a link at all between languages and genetics, it is among Neolithic tribes and early civilizations that the correlation should be the strongest, before empires imposed their own (written) language on others.

The first written language in Mesopotamia was Sumerian, apparently unrelated to any other known language, except possibly Georgian. If the a relation with Georgian does indeed exist, it could mean that the early Sumerian belonged to haplogroup G. Based on present Y-DNA frequencies in southern Iraq, it would be more likely that J1 was the predominant haplogroup in the Sumerian city-states of Ur, Uruk, Nippur, Eridu, etc.

Sumerian was replaced by Akkadian in Mesopotamia. Akkadian is a Semitic language related to the tribal tongues of the desert nomads from Syria to Palestine. Semitic people and languages are typically associated with haplogroups E1b1b, T, J1 and J2. Akkadian being from northern Mesopotamia, where J2 is prevalent, early Akkadian speakers were likely to belong overwhelmingly to this haplogroup. However, it is likely that the deeper origins of all Afroasiatic languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Asiatic_languages) start exclusively with haplogroup E.

What is more interesting is the case of the Elamites. Their civilization was centered in the west and the southwest of modern-day Iran, and their language related to Dravidian and languages of the Indus civilization. This South Asian origin could correspond to the relatively high frequency of haplogroup L (and minor presence of H) in southern Iran. Furthermore, the Akkadians are known to have deported many of them in various parts of their empire, as far as the Levant. This would explain the presence of hg L at low frequencies in the Middle East, and notably the Levant.

The Medes and Persians are supposed to be the Indo-European invaders who brought R1a (and maybe other haplogroups) into the Middle East.

Semitic Duwa
15-06-10, 13:06
I would link J1c3d (L147+) and E1b1b1c1 (M34+) to Semitic speakers.

The latter being situated on the coastal parts of the Levant while the first is to be associated with Akkadians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Amorites and Bedawi-like tribes (Hebrews).

J2 (M172+) along with T (M70+) and G (M201+) are to be associated with Na7rain's pre-Semitic civilizations (Sumer, Hurrians, etc...)

willy
15-06-10, 19:43
I would link J1c3d (L147+) and E1b1b1c1 (M34+) to Semitic speakers.

The latter being situated on the coastal parts of the Levant while the first is to be associated with Akkadians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Amorites and Bedawi-like tribes (Hebrews).

J2 (M172+) along with T (M70+) and G (M201+) are to be associated with Na7rain's pre-Semitic civilizations (Sumer, Hurrians, etc...)


Yes Sumer, Hurrians, were not Semtic civilizations so G (M201+) is well associated to the first Hebrew tribes before the Semtic invasion of Mesopotamia . Sumer was founded by Caucasus people (Haplogroup G ) Ossetians come from a Analic Indo Iranian origin these tribes and were implied in the Persian Empire as elite people

Semitic Duwa
16-06-10, 12:21
Yes Sumer, Hurrians, were not Semtic civilizations so G (M201+) is well associated to the first Hebrew tribes before the Semtic invasion of Mesopotamia . Sumer was founded by Caucasus people (Haplogroup G ) Ossetians come from a Analic Indo Iranian origin these tribes and were implied in the Persian Empire as elite people


3Ivrim were J1c3d (L147+), not G (M201+).

willy
16-06-10, 13:13
3Ivrim were J1c3d (L147+), not G (M201+).
converted to Judaism ? I think G is the origin but some tribes from Arabia came on that area as invaders some semitic tribes must have adopted the Judaism ?

The oldest Sepharadic Jewish presence in Europe seems to be Ibiza with a high frequency of G2a3b1 in this community. G is found both among Ashkenazi and Sephardic that's makes me think that the first Hebrew were G this is matching with the Hurrian - cauacasus origin of the first Mesopotamian tribes . A cluster of closely related Ashkenazi Jews represent virtually all confirmed G2c persons worldwide, both from private testing, and from academic studies.

Concentrations of G2a3b1 at Certain Sites :

The highest percentage of G2a3b1 persons in a discrete population so far described is in the island of IBIZA off the eastern Spanish coast. Ibiza samples include indentifiable persons from the DYS388=13 subgroup. Because value combinations of the STR marker samples in Ibiza are also common in Sephardic Jewish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardic_Jewish) samples,[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G2a3b1_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Adams_2008-7) the haplogroup G in Ibiza might be related to the significant population of Crypto-Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto-Jews) in Ibiza.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G2a3b1_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-9)

Semitic Duwa
16-06-10, 18:44
converted to Judaism ? I think G is the origin but some tribes from Arabia came on that area as invaders some semitic tribes must have adopted the Judaism ?

The oldest Sepharadic Jewish presence in Europe seems to be Ibiza with a high frequency of G2a3b1 in this community. G is found both among Ashkenazi and Sephardic that's makes me think that the first Hebrew were G this is matching with the Hurrian - cauacasus origin of the first Mesopotamian tribes . A cluster of closely related Ashkenazi Jews represent virtually all confirmed G2c persons worldwide, both from private testing, and from academic studies.

Concentrations of G2a3b1 at Certain Sites :

The highest percentage of G2a3b1 persons in a discrete population so far described is in the island of IBIZA off the eastern Spanish coast. Ibiza samples include indentifiable persons from the DYS388=13 subgroup. Because value combinations of the STR marker samples in Ibiza are also common in Sephardic Jewish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardic_Jewish) samples,[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G2a3b1_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Adams_2008-7) the haplogroup G in Ibiza might be related to the significant population of Crypto-Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto-Jews) in Ibiza.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G2a3b1_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-9)

Kohanim are J1c3d (L147+), the same goes to all certified Semites.

3Ivrim were Bedawi-like Semites (Abraham is a semi-nomad).
None the less, G's presence is to be associated with Mesopotamian/Hurrian Na7rainid converts who followed the Hebrews in their migration and gradually integrated.

STR aren't to be granted full-trust if you want my advice.

willy
16-06-10, 21:32
Do you know really from where Abraham comes from ?
Recently, the story of the biblical deluge was connected to the Black Sea, together with the suggestion that the story's pre-Mesopotamian origins might be found in the Pontic basin and also I think the first children of Israel . The first Mesopotamian peoples came from Caucasus (G) so they (Sumer) were invaded by semitic people from the Arabic Peninsula . J1 came from the Arabian peninsula to Mesopotamia I wonder if Abraham was within these invaders ? This is not clear ? Sumer was destroyed by the Semitic arrival and the original people of Mesopotamia was persecuted and forced to integrate the new Arabian " semitic " power so to me the Abraham ' s origin comes from a Sumerian tribe . Anyway since 5000 years ago we can say that many or some subclades of J1 belong to the Jewish heritage . So there is may be no answer about Abraham 's origin except in the old testament ?

buckley612
16-06-10, 21:50
I think it takes a huge leap in logic to say that the first Hebrews belonged to haplogroup G. Ashkenazi Jews are not the genetic representatives of the original Israelites. Abraham came from Sumer, which means he could have belonged to a variety of haplogroups. To say he was mostly certainly one or the other is ridiculous.

willy
16-06-10, 22:09
I think it takes a huge leap in logic to say that the first Hebrews belonged to haplogroup G. Ashkenazi Jews are not the genetic representatives of the original Israelites. Abraham came from Sumer, which means he could have belonged to a variety of haplogroups. To say he was mostly certainly one or the other is ridiculous.

as ridiculous when you can read on Eupedia that R1a is the first indo european speaker
it will be interesting to have more reactions like yours so when we talk about 5000 years ago I am not sure to find a haplogroup melting pot on Mesopotamia . So you are may be right if this is the case all this forum is ridiculous

I don't talk about Ashkenazi Jews just the origin of the first Hebrews this is not the same thing ...

buckley612
16-06-10, 22:53
"G is found both among Ashkenazi and Sephardic that's makes me think that the first Hebrew were G this is matching with the Hurrian - cauacasus origin of the first Mesopotamian tribes."

This is the leap in logic which I mentioned, also you do speak of the Ashkenazi in relation to first Hebrew tribes.
I do have my own problems with the Hebrews not being Semitic, one very minor reason being word "Semitic", which comes from the progenitor Shem. If Hebrews came from the North rather than the East then the "Semitic" language group would be a huge misnomer.
A bigger reason I am resistant to that idea is because whenever "facts" are presented without evidence, there seems to be an agenda. Agendas are what is slowing the progress of genetic research. An agenda concerned with the identity of Jewish peoples seems all the more questionable to me.

willy
16-06-10, 23:48
An agenda concerned with the identity of the Indo Europeans - Gimbutas ' theory seems to me more questionable . Did you had any agenda when you made a DNA test ? I think no . The black sea flood is an evidence so I wonder when the Old Testament say something about a big flood if that 's just a story ? If not it would be not a big surprise to me that the initial tribe named Hebrews came from the North Cauvasus or " around the black sea "
during that period I really think that there was not a very hight " haplogroup melting pot " 8000 years ago . No agenda to me just the truth ! but we will may be never know the " truth " anyway as I said during that time the Israel tribe had time to grow up with many other haplogroups convert as Shem tribes who followed the Hebrews in their migration and gradually integrated . The flood myth has its roots in the Black Sea catastrophe which caused a great dispersion of that peoples this disaster is in the Bible so the people who came to report that myth came logically from that region of the black sea - Caucasus not from the Arabian Peninsula . The black sea flood implied also the future Europeans dispersion from Anatolia to Western Europe during the neolithic . There is an other solution this Flood Myth came from Caucasus to Mesopotamia with the Sumerians tribes so later some Semitic tribes take it in their own believe and wrote the Bible ? In the same idea : Islam is just a copy of the Judeo Christian Monotheism, if you look at Islam this is really a mixture of the Old Testament not an original creation .

http://www.genomeweb.com/arrays/international-team-characterizes-jewish-genetic-patterns

"The researchers reported that the Ashkenazi, Caucasus, Middle Eastern, North African, and Sephardi Jewish populations clustered with non-Jewish populations in the Middle East, particularly Druze and Cypriot groups, suggesting a " close relationship between most contemporary Jews and non-Jewish populations from Levant."

Other groups with a significant G frequency include Catalan-speaking northern Sardinians and the Druze, who are about 18% G2a. About one-third of Haplogroup G in Iran is in sub-group G1.

http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/2010/01/22/y-chromosome-dna-haplogroup-g-and-macedonians

Haplogroup G occurs most frequently in the Caucasus region where half of North Ossetian males are in G, as are about 30% of Georgians and Azerbaijanis.

A large majority of European G2c’s are Ashkenazi Jews, but so far G2c has been tested in only a small number of people in the Middle East and South Asia. Among Ashkenazi Jews overall, about 10% are in haplogroup G

Semitic Duwa
17-06-10, 10:39
Do you know really from where Abraham comes from ?
Recently, the story of the biblical deluge was connected to the Black Sea, together with the suggestion that the story's pre-Mesopotamian origins might be found in the Pontic basin and also I think the first children of Israel . The first Mesopotamian peoples came from Caucasus (G) so they (Sumer) were invaded by semitic people from the Arabic Peninsula . J1 came from the Arabian peninsula to Mesopotamia I wonder if Abraham was within these invaders ? This is not clear ? Sumer was destroyed by the Semitic arrival and the original people of Mesopotamia was persecuted and forced to integrate the new Arabian " semitic " power so to me the Abraham ' s origin comes from a Sumerian tribe . Anyway since 5000 years ago we can say that many or some subclades of J1 belong to the Jewish heritage . So there is may be no answer about Abraham 's origin except in the old testament ?


You fairly don't understand that Abraham is a descendant of Shem through 3Ever and Arpa5shad (himself brother of Aram and Ashur).

His ancestors came from the Arabian peninsula and probably arrived with the Akkadians, he was not a mere Sumerian.

Semitic Duwa
17-06-10, 10:40
I think it takes a huge leap in logic to say that the first Hebrews belonged to haplogroup G. Ashkenazi Jews are not the genetic representatives of the original Israelites. Abraham came from Sumer, which means he could have belonged to a variety of haplogroups. To say he was mostly certainly one or the other is ridiculous.


Lets make things clear: He came from Ur, not Sumer.

willy
17-06-10, 11:10
You fairly don't understand that Abraham is a descendant of Shem through 3Ever and Arpa5shad (himself brother of Aram and Ashur).

His ancestors came from the Arabian peninsula and probably arrived with the Akkadians, he was not a mere Sumerian.

In that case the Old Testament is a loan the Great Flood myth comes from Sumer
Ur Sumerian Urim was a city in ancient Sumer
Myths of Creation and a Great Flood
The Sumerians had vanished as an identifiable people, but they left behind their myths. The Assyrians adopted and altered Sumerian stories, and they preserved the Sumerian language much as Christians were to preserve Latin. The Babylonians translated Sumerian religious writings, and these Babylonian translations influenced the Hurrians and Hittites. And after the Kassites conquered Babylon they came to accept Babylon's literature as sacred.


http://www.fsmitha.com/images/gil_small.jpg (http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/i-gilgamesh.htm)
The oldest surviving story
of a Great Flood
I think that " First Hebrews " come from the Hurrian - Hittite peoples . Sumerian texts of the great tradition was continued by them . Anyway it does not matter because this tradition was also preserved and may be transformed by " Shem " tribes who is now in the Jewish heritage .

Semitic Duwa
17-06-10, 12:27
In that case the Old Testament is a loan the Great Flood myth comes from Sumer
Ur Sumerian Urim was a city in ancient Sumer
Myths of Creation and a Great Flood
The Sumerians had vanished as an identifiable people, but they left behind their myths. The Assyrians adopted and altered Sumerian stories, and they preserved the Sumerian language much as Christians were to preserve Latin. The Babylonians translated Sumerian religious writings, and these Babylonian translations influenced the Hurrians and Hittites. And after the Kassites conquered Babylon they came to accept Babylon's literature as sacred.

Nonsense, the Bible did borrow external myths though that doesn't resume the originality of the document.

Let me give you an example: The Qur'an.

Mu7ammad makes many references to veto-testamentary sources (sometimes erroneous) though that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is a "loan" to the TaNaKH.

The cycles described in Sumerian mythology for sure do not have the same meaning as the Biblical flood as a counter-example.

You adress the Semitization of Sumerians, these mainly adopted Semitic languages brought by the J1c3d (L147+) and E1b1b1c1 (M34+) Akkadians.
They did not "vanish", their respective haplogroups remained intergrated in the Semitic substratum. The Sumerian language was not preserved and even the deities went through a Semitization process:

Enlil became Ellil, Inanna became Ishtar and so on...

The Kasdim were a mere ersatz in the region and could be an off-shot of the Elamites (J2 (M172+) + L (M20+) [the latter being disproportionnate in Druze communities]).



I think that " First Hebrews " come from the Hurrian - Hittite peoples . Sumerian texts of the great tradition was continued by them . Anyway it does not matter because this tradition was also preserved and may be transformed by " Shem " tribes who is now in the Jewish heritage .

Then you ought to explain why Ashkenazi Kohanim (to whom I belong) are more than 80% J1c3d (L147+) whereas Shomroni Kohanim (who can also trace their whole lineage) are E1b1b1a (M78+). I see no Gs here so please, do bring more concrete evidence.

Moreover, according to Shen's study on the Israeli population, the frequency of G (M201+) doesn't exceed 5%.

willy
17-06-10, 13:17
There was a Semitization of Sumerians and Abraham came from the Arabian Peninsula to Mesopotamia during the Akkadian invasion of the Sumerian Empire I agree . So Abraham 's history start at Ur (Urim city of Sumer) and Abraham descends from Noha this is not explained in the Old Testament that Abraham came from the Arabian peninsula we just have " Ur " . I just want to say that's not obvious to link the flood area to the Arabian Peninsula so geological features now show that this myth appears to be related to the catastrophe of the Black Sea. Biblical tradition relates that deluge and Noha and therefore the original people (Hebrews) may just came from that area . We can keep a critical mind . Now you can see on Google how haplogroup G is connected to the Jewish heritage and also to the black sea - Caucasus area . History shows that religions are successive loans .

On the same way I criticize also the origin of Indo-European language. The only proven source of this language comes from the Hittites and to me this is really an aberration to see theses who want to combine the first Indo European to R1a . So to explaining that the Hittites were Indo-Europeans we can read that Hittites have invaded Anatolia so according Renfrew I think that's idea is completely false .

Semitic Duwa
17-06-10, 13:53
There was a Semitization of Sumerians and Abraham came from the Arabian Peninsula to Mesopotamia during the Akkadian invasion of the Sumerian Empire I agree . So Abraham 's history start at Ur (Urim city of Sumer) and Abraham descends from Noha this is not explained in the Old Testament that Abraham came from the Arabian peninsula we just have " Ur " .

Not Abraham himself but his ancestors (remember that his ancestor's name, 3Ever; comes from the trilittary root ע:ב:ר which means "to cross" thus the Hebrews were "those who crossed", perhaps a reference to their migration from eastern arabia to Mesopotamia).


I just want to say that's not obvious to link the flood area to the Arabian Peninsula so geological features now show that this myth appears to be related to the catastrophe of the Black Sea.

I do not link the flood to the arabian peninsula, for mount Ararat is mentionned in the Bible.


Biblical tradition relates that deluge and Noha and therefore the original people (Hebrews) may just came from that area . We can keep a critical mind . Now you can see on Google how haplogroup G is connected to the Jewish heritage and also to the black sea - Caucasus area . History shows that religions are successive loans .

Eventually, it would be plain stupid to deny G2c's Jewish role.
The only fact that I point out is that this marker was not the original Hebrew marker, merely a Sumerian/Hurrian one which eventually followed Abraham's clan and migration. (If we accept the Bible as a reasonable source that is)


I say the same thing for the origin of Indo-European language. The only proven source of this language comes from the Hittites and tor me this is really an aberration to see theses who want to combine the first Indo European to R1a .

Indeed, G (M201+) seems to be the most reasonable link to the origin of IE languages. In my view R1a1 peoples mainly borrowed this language to G (M201+) original IE speakers and intergrated it into their culture who provided an eventual substratum (same scheme for R1b1b2 who does retain a Palaeolithic-Basque role according to some of its subclades [especially R1b1b2a1a2], no matter what all IE-centrics'll babble about; some R1b1b2 clades are clearly non-IE).

I mean... Just look at its distribution!

http://ask.inwiki.org/images/thumb/1/17/Haplogroup_G_(Y-DNA).jpg/700px-Haplogroup_G_(Y-DNA).jpg

Compare to that of the most reasonable IE Urheimat:

http://aratta.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/urheimat-wiki.png
http://www.indoaryans.org/mimes/aryans-01.jpg
http://aratta.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/urheimat-slrd-map1.jpg



And don't give me the "haplogroup clade's diversity= place of origin" argument unless you consider NYC as the origin of mankind.

Semitic Duwa
17-06-10, 18:06
What is more interesting is the case of the Elamites. Their civilization was centered in the west and the southwest of modern-day Iran, and their language related to Dravidian and languages of the Indus civilization. This South Asian origin could correspond to the relatively high frequency of haplogroup L (and minor presence of H) in southern Iran. Furthermore, the Akkadians are known to have deported many of them in various parts of their empire, as far as the Levant. This would explain the presence of hg L at low frequencies in the Middle East, and notably the Levant.

That's reasonable and fournishes a valuable explanation to the staggering high L frequencies amongst the Druze.

willy
17-06-10, 20:36
That's reasonable and fournishes a valuable explanation to the staggering high L frequencies amongst the Druze.

It seems right about the IE . G seems clearly associated to it and also to the Kura-Araxes culture. About the Jewish heritage, It does not clearly explain from where Abraham 's ancestors came when you say " which means "to cross" thus the Hebrews were "those who crossed", perhaps a reference to their migration from eastern Arabia to Mesopotamia " It means that Abraham's ancestors came to Ur but from where ? you say may be from eastern Arabia OK this is possible . So About the Great Flood Mount Ararat is the tallest peak in modern Turkey the Great Flood is not a legend this is the flood of the Black Sea If we believe in the Testament Noah was there and Abraham 's ancestors
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Distribution_Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.svg

Semitic Duwa
18-06-10, 09:45
It seems right about the IE . G seems clearly associated to it and also to the Kura-Araxes culture. About the Jewish heritage, It does not clearly explain from where Abraham 's ancestors came when you say " which means "to cross" thus the Hebrews were "those who crossed", perhaps a reference to their migration from eastern Arabia to Mesopotamia " It means that Abraham's ancestors came to Ur but from where ? you say may be from eastern Arabia OK this is possible . So About the Great Flood Mount Ararat is the tallest peak in modern Turkey the Great Flood is not a legend this is the flood of the Black Sea If we believe in the Testament Noah was there and Abraham 's ancestors
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Distribution_Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.svg


One should not forget that this myth was incorporated, Noa7 probably lived in the Arabian penisnula (eastern arabia? Mesopotamia-Na7rain??) hence P-58 arose there.

willy
18-06-10, 11:38
One should not forget that this myth was incorporated, Noa7 probably lived in the Arabian penisnula (eastern arabia? Mesopotamia-Na7rain??) hence P-58 arose there.

OK with you : That myth was possibly incorporated in that case this is a Sumerian myth .So it can explain the Sumerians Anatolian - Caucasus origin .

about this map link where is the main article ?
http://ask.inwiki.org/images/thumb/1/17/Haplogroup_G_%28Y-DNA%29.jpg/700px-Haplogroup_G_%28Y-DNA%29.jpg

willy
18-06-10, 11:46
[QUOTE=Semitic Duwa;358830]



I mean... Just look at its distribution!

http://ask.inwiki.org/images/thumb/1/17/Haplogroup_G_%28Y-DNA%29.jpg/700px-Haplogroup_G_%28Y-DNA%29.jpg





Do you have the main article of this map below ?

http://ask.inwiki.org/images/thumb/1/17/Haplogroup_G_%28Y-DNA%29.jpg/700px-Haplogroup_G_%28Y-DNA%29.jpg

Semitic Duwa
18-06-10, 14:56
OK with you : That myth was possibly incorporated in that case this is a Sumerian myth .So it can explain the Sumerians Anatolian - Caucasus origin .

about this map link where is the main article ?
http://ask.inwiki.org/images/thumb/1/17/Haplogroup_G_%28Y-DNA%29.jpg/700px-Haplogroup_G_%28Y-DNA%29.jpg


There is no article, just supposition, you might want to have a look at G (M201+)'s phylogenetic tree.

Semitic Duwa
21-11-10, 23:43
Some of G's clades are also to be asociated with Gutians.

Neander
18-03-11, 18:35
converted to Judaism ? I think G is the origin but some tribes from Arabia came on that area as invaders some semitic tribes must have adopted the Judaism ? It is impossible. Judaism as a religion was created gradually from 1.000 BC until 500 BC, as a reaction to Philistine invaders.

willy
19-03-11, 02:02
It is impossible. Judaism as a religion was created gradually from 1.000 BC until 500 BC, as a reaction to Philistine invaders.
I think this is much more older than 3000 years bp

Neander
19-03-11, 16:09
I think this is much more older than 3000 years bp It was Proto-albanian tribe of Philistines who occupied hebrews and make them slaves.

In the 1000 BC the David liberated hebrews, when killed Goliath (Illyrian or proto-albanian hero/philistine), and then they created judaic religion, in the base of judaic politheism, but they eliminated other gods except of JHVH.

archaiocapilos
20-03-11, 23:49
there is no connection between Philistines and Albanians unless you believe that the Sea Peoples were proto-Albanians (which is obviously wrong). Do you have any sources supporting this or is it an other ''Albanians-Pelasgians-the oldest Europeans'' thing?

iapetoc
21-03-11, 07:28
Ezekiel 25:16 (http://biblos.com/ezekiel/25-16.htm)

translation of 70 first and best attemp from Hebrew to Koine

16 (http://biblos.com/ezekiel/25-16.htm) διὰ τοῦτο τάδε λέγει κύριος ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐκτενῶ τὴν χεῖρά μου ἐπὶ τοὺς ἀλλοφύλους καὶ ἐξολεθρεύσω κρῆτας καὶ ἀπολῶ τοὺς καταλοίπους τοὺς κατοικοῦντας τὴν παραλίαν

I wlll kill all Cretans and the rest who live at the shore

Phillistines Belong to Minoan Branch of Pelasgic, not the Illyrian

city of Avaris (Abaris) etc

Semitic Duwa
30-04-11, 01:24
It is impossible. Judaism as a religion was created gradually from 1.000 BC until 500 BC, as a reaction to Philistine invaders.

That's new, some say it flourished out of Canaanite cultural practices, others (like myself) maintain that it arose in the Sinai desert.

Semitic Duwa
30-04-11, 01:30
It was Proto-albanian tribe of Philistines who occupied hebrews and make them slaves.

In the 1000 BC the David liberated hebrews, when killed Goliath (Illyrian or proto-albanian hero/philistine), and then they created judaic religion, in the base of judaic politheism, but they eliminated other gods except of JHVH.


You're lost, pilgrim.
Pelištim (Philistines) were part of Sea peoples.
Scriptures maintain that they came from Kaphtor (Crete)... When Ramses chased them from the coast, he celebrated his triumph against the "Pršt"... IMO, they were Pelsagians, most probably Tyrsenian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrsenian_languages#Aegean_language_family) speakers who then adopted Canaanite language stream with Philistine substratum.
They would've left their island under incoming Indo-European pressure.

abdu
20-10-11, 18:07
DNA of the Arab and Kouhinm identical ( j1c3d) be called Abrahamic strain and this is Proves that the Arabs descended from Ishmail son of Ibraham
You will note that this strain is spreading widely in the Arabian Peninsula
ARAB PROJECT IN FAMILY TREE DNA

abdu
20-10-11, 18:11
***.familytreedna.com/public/j1el147/default.aspx?/publicwebsite.aspx=&section=yresults

Twilight
28-08-13, 21:38
Maciamo: What is more interesting is the case of the Elamites. Their civilization was centered in the west and the southwest of modern-day Iran, and their language related to Dravidian and languages of the Indus civilization. This South Asian origin could correspond to the relatively high frequency of haplogroup L (and minor presence of H) in southern Iran. Furthermore, the Akkadians are known to have deported many of them in various parts of their empire, as far as the Levant. This would explain the presence of hg L at low frequencies in the Middle East, and notably the Levant.

Not to mention Haplogroup T; L's brother haplogroup, there seems to be a lot of Dravidians that have T as seen in wikipedia's higest Frequency section of Haplogroup T. Yet there seems to be a huge gap on haplogroup T's map from former Persia to south Eastern Indian; apparently Dravidians. Is there any chance that the Dravidians experienced an ancient exodus?

Sile
28-08-13, 22:14
Not to mention Haplogroup T; L's brother haplogroup, there seems to be a lot of Dravidians that have T as seen in wikipedia's higest Frequency section of Haplogroup T. Yet there seems to be a huge gap on haplogroup T's map from former Persia to south Eastern Indian; apparently Dravidians. Is there any chance that the Dravidians experienced an ancient exodus?

article on Dravidian, even the comments are very interesting.

a note to me from 23andme on dravidian stated....if your neaderthal reading is above 2.7% then you have no dravidian. ( 23andme stop neaderthal readings at 3.3% )


http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.blogspot.com.au/2011/10/evidence-regarding-dravidian-linguistic.html

Noman
28-08-13, 22:21
during that period I really think that there was not a very hight " haplogroup melting pot " 8000 years ago . No agenda to me just the truth ! but we will may be never know the " truth " anyway as I said during that time the Israel tribe had time to grow up with many other haplogroups convert as Shem tribes who followed the Hebrews in their migration and gradually integrated . The flood myth has its roots in the Black Sea catastrophe which caused a great dispersion of that peoples this disaster is in the Bible so the people who came to report that myth came logically from that region of the black sea - Caucasus not from the Arabian Peninsula . The black sea flood implied also the future Europeans dispersion from Anatolia to Western Europe during the neolithic . There is an other solution this Flood Myth came from Caucasus to Mesopotamia with the Sumerians tribes so later some Semitic tribes take it in their own believe and wrote the Bible ? In the same idea : Islam is just a copy of the Judeo Christian Monotheism, if you look at Islam this is really a mixture of the Old Testament not an original creation .

http://www.genomeweb.com/arrays/international-team-characterizes-jewish-genetic-patterns

"The researchers reported that the Ashkenazi, Caucasus, Middle Eastern, North African, and Sephardi Jewish populations clustered with non-Jewish populations in the Middle East, particularly Druze and Cypriot groups, suggesting a " close relationship between most contemporary Jews and non-Jewish populations from Levant."

Other groups with a significant G frequency include Catalan-speaking northern Sardinians and the Druze, who are about 18% G2a. About one-third of Haplogroup G in Iran is in sub-group G1.

http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/2010/01/22/y-chromosome-dna-haplogroup-g-and-macedonians

Haplogroup G occurs most frequently in the Caucasus region where half of North Ossetian males are in G, as are about 30% of Georgians and Azerbaijanis.

A large majority of European G2c’s are Ashkenazi Jews, but so far G2c has been tested in only a small number of people in the Middle East and South Asia. Among Ashkenazi Jews overall, about 10% are in haplogroup G

Well we know the jewish priests were J because their sub-haplotype doesn't exist anywhere else, and priests are all supposed to be sons of priests.

That doesn't mean all of the jews were the same haplotype, though. For example samson was supposed to be very dark skinned, some others are described as very pale, red hair or blue eyes, and others very arabic. So there was some mixing before the end of the captivity with the pharaoh through other slaves converting, if not before then.

Twilight
28-08-13, 22:52
article on Dravidian, even the comments are very interesting.

a note to me from 23andme on dravidian stated....if your neaderthal reading is above 2.7% then you have no dravidian. ( 23andme stop neaderthal readings at 3.3% )


http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.blogspot.com.au/2011/10/evidence-regarding-dravidian-linguistic.html
How on earth did this subject get switched to Neanderthal? :o But thanks for the link ^_^

Sile
28-08-13, 23:13
How on earth did this subject get switched to Neanderthal? :o But thanks for the link ^_^

I had to throw it in as per my question on what my dravidian was. LOL could not help myself

regards

Twilight
29-08-13, 07:07
article on Dravidian, even the comments are very interesting.

a note to me from 23andme on dravidian stated....if your neaderthal reading is above 2.7% then you have no dravidian. ( 23andme stop neaderthal readings at 3.3% )
This link makes a nice point, :) Haplogroup T could've not only been farmers but sailors and traders who sailed to Somalia and East India from somewhere in the Persian Gulf probably explaining also the genetic issolation of Africa's horn from the rest of it's haplogroup.Source: History of Somalia/historyworld.net

http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.blogspot.com.au/2011/10/evidence-regarding-dravidian-linguistic.html This link makes a nice point, :) Haplogroup T could've not only been farmers but sailors who sailed to Somalia and East India from the Fertile Crescent shores.

adamo
30-08-13, 02:56
False. According to ancient Somalian legends, The Isaaq and Darod tribes (these include all the highest concentration hg T groups.) arrived from the Yemenite tip of the Arabian peninsula, and further up the Arabian peninsula somewhere before, and from there they entered the Horn of Africa. Their leader was a Hashemite Arab.

adamo
30-08-13, 02:59
His name was Shaykh Ishaq ibn Ahmad al-Hashimi from Arabia. And the founder of the Darod tribe was Abdirahman bin Isma'il al-Jabarti, from the Banu Hashim tribe of Arabia, he crossed the Red Sea from Yemen into Somalia.

adamo
30-08-13, 03:09
Today Hashemites have spread in many places where Muslims have ruled, namely Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Somalia, Yemen, Djibouti, United Arab Emirates, Ethiopia, Northern Sudan, and Turkey. But the only modern Arabic/middle eastern nations to remain "Hashemite" as a title of origin are: The sharif of Mecca, The king of Jordan, King of Iraq, King of the Hejaz, King of Syria and the Imam of Yemen. Today, most of these Hashemite former states are dissolved. As for the Banu Hashim, who gave their name to all Hashemites, they where Muhammad and his grand-father Hashim's clan within the greater Quraish tribe. The Banu Hashim where Adnani Arabs. (Arabs that occupied the northern,central and western parts of the Arabian peninsula. The Quraish, where centred around Mecca (extreme west-central Arabia by the Red Sea.).

Twilight
30-08-13, 05:10
Today Hashemites have spread in many places where Muslims have ruled, namely Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Somalia, Yemen, Djibouti, United Arab Emirates, Ethiopia, Northern Sudan, and Turkey. But the only modern Arabic/middle eastern nations to remain "Hashemite" as a title of origin are: The sharif of Mecca, The king of Jordan, King of Iraq, King of the Hejaz, King of Syria and the Imam of Yemen. Today, most of these Hashemite former states are dissolved. As for the Banu Hashim, who gave their name to all Hashemites, they where Muhammad and his grand-father Hashim's clan within the greater Quraish tribe. The Banu Hashim where Adnani Arabs. (Arabs that occupied the northern,central and western parts of the Arabian peninsula. The Quraish, where centred around Mecca (extreme west-central Arabia by the Red Sea.).

Okay, maybe I exaggerated ^_^ Reading the explanation is new to me but has been acknowledged. But still doesn't explain Haplogroup T in the Ancient Egyptians according to Haplogroups of Ancient Civilizations/Eupedia

Noman
30-08-13, 05:51
Another very interesting post, adamo! I had read in the quo'ran that mohammad was some kind of caucasian type but did not know of his tribe, or that he was likely in T haplogroup! History twists out strange tales.

edit: also bible was compiled at a different time than the original three sources, which were much older. They didn't just sit down and make something up one day, they took all their history and beliefs and put it all together.

Twilight
30-08-13, 06:19
Another very interesting post, adamo! I had read in the quo'ran that mohammad was some kind of caucasian type but did not know of his tribe, or that he was likely in T haplogroup! History twists out strange tales.
No kidding
edit: also bible was compiled at a different time than the original three sources, which were much older. They didn't just sit down and make something up one day, they took all their history and beliefs and put it all together.
Do you think Haplogroup T in Ancient Egypt was due to the Anceint Isrealites left behind in Egypt? Just an educated guess :) In not, is there other explanations? ;)

Noman
30-08-13, 09:38
Do you think Haplogroup T in Ancient Egypt was due to the Anceint Isrealites left behind in Egypt? Just an educated guess :) In not, is there other explanations? ;)
No, I don't know really. I would not expect it to be T, but tracking down T is one of the bigger mysteries. If that is true for mohammad that would be a great discovery but it's only a guess (about the T part).

So far as I can tell the Egyptians went through a lot of different phases of rulership over thousands of years and had a lot of mixing so it would be closer to the united states than to any homogenous ehtnic group.

Who they were originally I don't know for sure but I'd guess e1b if I had to make a guess, like natufians and some of the very early farmers in places like austria.

Sile
30-08-13, 10:45
Do you think Haplogroup T in Ancient Egypt was due to the Anceint Isrealites left behind in Egypt? Just an educated guess :) In not, is there other explanations? ;)

How old are the jewish , ie religion. Because T which is known by some genetic companies as the Tigris valley farmers ( babylonians ) where absorbed by the assyrians and from that came Armenians, Kurds, Medes, Azeri etc.

T entered Europe with G very very early.........IMO they where hunters and sailors and eventually traders. But T1 has been said to have formed in the Pamir mountains and uzbekistan. I would like to see the difference between the ancient T-M184 and the T1-M70 lines

adamo
30-08-13, 13:05
This guy is too intelligent....and knows too much about hg T.....to not be....Zanipolo!

Twilight
30-08-13, 21:15
How old are the jewish , ie religion. Because T which is known by some genetic companies as the Tigris valley farmers ( babylonians ) where absorbed by the assyrians and from that came Armenians, Kurds, Medes, Azeri etc.

T entered Europe with G very very early.........IMO they where hunters and sailors and eventually traders. But T1 has been said to have formed in the Pamir mountains and uzbekistan. I would like to see the difference between the ancient T-M184 and the T1-M70 lines

Isrealites apear to have existed since 2,000 BCish and got captured by the Babylonians and Assyrians only to be freed by the Persians. Sources: http://www.bu.edu/mzank/Jerusalem/cp/ANE.html http://www.mitchellteachers.org/WorldHistory/AncientEgyptNearEastUnit/OriginsofIsraelites.html http://www.science.co.il/Israel-history.php

Sile
30-08-13, 21:19
This guy is too intelligent....and knows too much about hg T.....to not be....Zanipolo!

I already stated this............zanipolo was beheaded once he reached the status of King. you cannot have 2 kings in any organisation

bicicleur
26-11-13, 11:42
In that case the Old Testament is a loan the Great Flood myth comes from Sumer
Ur Sumerian Urim was a city in ancient Sumer
Myths of Creation and a Great Flood
The Sumerians had vanished as an identifiable people, but they left behind their myths. The Assyrians adopted and altered Sumerian stories, and they preserved the Sumerian language much as Christians were to preserve Latin. The Babylonians translated Sumerian religious writings, and these Babylonian translations influenced the Hurrians and Hittites. And after the Kassites conquered Babylon they came to accept Babylon's literature as sacred.


http://www.fsmitha.com/images/gil_small.jpg (http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/i-gilgamesh.htm)
The oldest surviving story
of a Great Flood
I think that " First Hebrews " come from the Hurrian - Hittite peoples . Sumerian texts of the great tradition was continued by them . Anyway it does not matter because this tradition was also preserved and may be transformed by " Shem " tribes who is now in the Jewish heritage .

When was this story written the first time?
The Black Sea flood - if it ever happened - happened at least 7000 years ago

bicicleur
26-11-13, 11:55
I mean... Just look at its distribution!

http://ask.inwiki.org/images/thumb/1/17/Haplogroup_G_(Y-DNA).jpg/700px-Haplogroup_G_(Y-DNA).jpg



it is not as simple as you present it here

G2 was in Europe before they went northeast of the Black Sea
and R1a and R1b were on the steppe befor G2 was northeast of the Black Sea
R1a and R1b raised cattle and domesticated the horse on the steppe while G2 did agriculture
that is where and when Indo-European language was born

RobertColumbia
21-06-15, 05:07
DNA of the Arab and Kouhinm identical ( j1c3d) be called Abrahamic strain and this is Proves that the Arabs descended from Ishmail son of Ibraham
You will note that this strain is spreading widely in the Arabian Peninsula
ARAB PROJECT IN FAMILY TREE DNA

No it doesn't. It establishes that there is likely to be a common ancestor. Whether or not this common ancestor was Abraham/Ibrahim is not clear from the haplogroup evidence. It could be Abraham, it could be Shem, it could be a distant descendant of one of them, or it could be someone completely different.


...
a note to me from 23andme on dravidian stated....if your neaderthal reading is above 2.7% then you have no dravidian. ( 23andme stop neaderthal readings at 3.3% )
...

This is absurd.

RobertColumbia
13-07-15, 19:21
"G is found both among Ashkenazi and Sephardic that's makes me think that the first Hebrew were G this is matching with the Hurrian - cauacasus origin of the first Mesopotamian tribes."

This is the leap in logic which I mentioned, also you do speak of the Ashkenazi in relation to first Hebrew tribes....there seems to be an agenda. Agendas are what is slowing the progress of genetic research. An agenda concerned with the identity of Jewish peoples seems all the more questionable to me.

Yes. Simply observing that a certain haplogroup is found in multiple branches of a civilization or culture does not demonstrate that that was the haplogroup of the founder. G is found among Irish, Welsh, French, Italian, Spanish, and Romanian people. Does that mean that the original Celt and the original Roman were G, or that the original "Italo-Celt" was G? Maybe they were, but the consensus seems to be that they were probably R1b. All of these peoples also have E1b1b, I1, and I2. Not all of them can be the original founder.