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Maciamo
14-10-09, 11:12
Dienekes has posted a nice summary of the history of migration theories (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/10/migrationism-strikes-back.html) since the early days of anthropology with Coon until the latest DNA tests on Neolithic and Mesolithic Europeans.

We will know more once more ancient DNA is tested. Everybody is looking forward for the prehistoric Y-DNA results. If my reasoning is correct it should confirm my own migration theories as illustrated by these maps (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml).

In short, I postulate that :

- Mesolithic hunter-gatherers belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup I (and mtDNA haplogroup U)

- Early Neolithic farmers from Greece and the Balkans brought Y-DNA haplogroups E1b1b (notably E-V13), T and J2 (especially J2b), and possibly also G2a, which I associated with the spread of sheep and goat herders from the Caucasus region and Anatolia westward along the Mediterranean.

- The next wave of migrants were the Bronze-Age Indo-Europeans, which can be separated in two groups : the northern R1a from the Eurasian steppes, and the southern R1b from the region north and south of the Caucasus and around the Black Sea, especially in northern Anatolia and southern Russia. This was the first violent migration into Europe. Their technological superiority and war-like culture caused them to replace most of the older paternal lineages in conquered regions, giving the current landscape of R1b-R1a dominated Western and Eastern Europe. Regions with a long tradition of agriculture and bigger cities, like the Balkans, Greece and southern Italy, suffered less from the Indo-Europeans.

At present it looks like the Indo-Europeans could have belonged to mtDNA haplogroups U (U3 and U4 ?), H (H5 and H7 ?), K, I, W and X. Some J and T is also possible for the R1b group due to their Middle-Eastern origin.

Genocentrist
19-10-09, 00:09
I-M170 is obviously the oldest Haplogroup in Europe -very old-

I like this chart for classification of the lineages that branched of Paleolithic I-M170, they classify I2-438 as the Cro Magnons


http://thegeneticatlas.com/I-M170.png

Genocentrist
19-10-09, 00:21
Mesolithic hunter-gatherers belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup I (and mtDNA haplogroup U).

mtDNA like everywhere else seems to be hard to classify...I accept theories that explain this as simply a males choice in replacing new female lineages (as coldhearted as it sounds)

Look at the highest I_M170 frequencies in Europe (Dalmatia) also the highest H & V mtdna region the pairs match at 60%+ of the poulation, so this means that either R0 entered Europe at a very early age? -earlier than most of us assumed- or maybe R0 specifically H lineage prevailed in Europe because European males quickly favored them over the cold climate evolved females/use your imagination :ashamed2:/...So this makes sense imagine how modern Humans favor certain females today over their own due to change of taste, at the Paleolithic with lesser marital bonds...the males change of mates could have been as casual as a fashion trend! or switiching from a Stone tool to another

I lean more towards an older migration of H because H is also high in Sweden which is hard to explain (I can't imagine R1b males arriving and handed over most their females to I1-M253 don't seem logical :ashamed2:)

Highest R1b nations have slightly less H than Sweden-Dalmatia, so this means H became the favorite matrnal lineage in Europe sometime before the R1b invasion/migration to Europe

criztu
12-04-10, 14:37
- The next wave of migrants were the Bronze-Age Indo-Europeans [...] This was the first violent migration into Europe.excuse me, but didn't you link to Mario Alinei book, somewhere on this site, Mario Alinei who explains the theory of warlike Indo-Europeans is a myth ? "The evidence collected by archaeology in the last thirty years, in fact, overwhelmingly prove the absence of any large scale invasion in Europe, and the uninterrupted continuity of most Copper and Bronze Age cultures of Europe from Neolithic" - THE PALEOLITHIC CONTINUITY THEORY ON INDO-EUROPEAN ORIGINS

Wilhelm
12-04-10, 14:44
I-M170 is obviously the oldest Haplogroup in Europe -very old-

I like this chart for classification of the lineages that branched of Paleolithic I-M170, they classify I2-438 as the Cro Magnons


http://thegeneticatlas.com/I-M170.png


This is BULL, pseudo-science. Haplogroups can't be used for determining race.

Wilhelm
12-04-10, 14:47
mtDNA like everywhere else seems to be hard to classify...I accept theories that explain this as simply a males choice in replacing new female lineages (as coldhearted as it sounds)

Look at the highest I_M170 frequencies in Europe (Dalmatia) also the highest H & V mtdna region the pairs match at 60%+ of the poulation, so this means that either R0 entered Europe at a very early age? -earlier than most of us assumed- or maybe R0 specifically H lineage prevailed in Europe because European males quickly favored them over the cold climate evolved females/use your imagination :ashamed2:/...So this makes sense imagine how modern Humans favor certain females today over their own due to change of taste, at the Paleolithic with lesser marital bonds...the males change of mates could have been as casual as a fashion trend! or switiching from a Stone tool to another

I lean more towards an older migration of H because H is also high in Sweden which is hard to explain (I can't imagine R1b males arriving and handed over most their females to I1-M253 don't seem logical :ashamed2:)

Highest R1b nations have slightly less H than Sweden-Dalmatia, so this means H became the favorite matrnal lineage in Europe sometime before the R1b invasion/migration to Europe
The highest presence of H &V is Spain, not Dalmatia.

Cambrius (The Red)
12-04-10, 15:47
More pseudo science from the embracer of myths...blah, blah, blah. :rolleyes2:

Joro
12-04-10, 17:28
I2a2 linked with Dinarid sub-race, of course:innocent:
Dalmatia is Paleolithic, not Dinarid, as those old arbitrary map show.But it's insane to link Y-DNA to phenotypes, I agree.

Joro
12-04-10, 17:30
More pseudo science from the embracer of myths...blah, blah, blah. :rolleyes2:
Unbreakable circle of stupidity:useless:

Cambrius (The Red)
13-04-10, 18:00
mtDNA like everywhere else seems to be hard to classify...I accept theories that explain this as simply a males choice in replacing new female lineages (as coldhearted as it sounds)

Look at the highest I_M170 frequencies in Europe (Dalmatia) also the highest H & V mtdna region the pairs match at 60%+ of the poulation, so this means that either R0 entered Europe at a very early age? -earlier than most of us assumed- or maybe R0 specifically H lineage prevailed in Europe because European males quickly favored them over the cold climate evolved females/use your imagination :ashamed2:/...So this makes sense imagine how modern Humans favor certain females today over their own due to change of taste, at the Paleolithic with lesser marital bonds...the males change of mates could have been as casual as a fashion trend! or switiching from a Stone tool to another

I lean more towards an older migration of H because H is also high in Sweden which is hard to explain (I can't imagine R1b males arriving and handed over most their females to I1-M253 don't seem logical :ashamed2:)

Highest R1b nations have slightly less H than Sweden-Dalmatia, so this means H became the favorite matrnal lineage in Europe sometime before the R1b invasion/migration to Europe

"Violent migrations"? Is this not the same absurd notion that the disgraced racist fraud Carleton Coon posited? Seriously now...:laughing:

Semitic Duwa
13-04-10, 20:56
Some J and T is also possible for the R1b group due to their Middle-Eastern origin.

You look reluctant to JT's indo-european origin even though both are linked to Anatolia (thus supporting Renfrew's theory in the balance).

Care to explain?:thinking:

Wilhelm
13-04-10, 21:22
You look reluctant to JT's even though both are linked to Anatolia (thus supporting Renfrew's theory in the balance).

Care to explain?:thinking:
Are you french ? I ask this because I know people who all of a sudden think they are semitic just because they are J1....:startled:

Semitic Duwa
13-04-10, 21:26
Are you french ? I ask this because I know people who all of a sudden think they are semitic just because they are J1....:startled:


I'm a Kohen, not the same (though my family name isn't Kohen, I am a descendant of Aharon) thus a Joooooo:confused2:


French J1c3d-L147+....ROFLMAO:grin: