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Wilhelm
26-10-09, 17:33
Does anyone have the distribution or percentages of mtDNA L (sub-saharian) found in Europe ?

Cambrius (The Red)
26-10-09, 19:37
Does anyone have the distribution or percentages of mtDNA L (sub-saharian) found in Europe ?

Levels are trivial for all European countries. There have been methodologically flawed "studies" that indicated slightly elevated levels in regions of Southern Italy, parts of Portugal and Galicia. However, there is great controversy concerning the exact type of "Sub-Saharan" DNA found, particularly in the cases of Portugal and Galicia. Much of the L DNA may actually be very old and possibly Asian. This research has been considered questionable by some scholars because the samplings were NON REPRESENTATIVE of NATIVE ORIGIN Portuguese and Galicians. In fact, there were samples extracted from a small, old and socially isolated community where slaves and diseased outcasts historically settled. Quite ridiculous and makes you wonder what is being passed off for science these days. Yes, it seems some genetic "scientists" do have a racist agenda. And, they will end up in the dust bin of history along with all the other human trash...

Maciamo
26-10-09, 22:10
Levels are trivial for all European countries. There have been methodologically flawed "studies" that indicated slightly elevated levels in regions of Southern Italy, parts of Portugal and Galicia. However, there is great controversy concerning the exact type of "Sub-Saharan" DNA found, particularly in the cases of Portugal and Galicia. Much of the L DNA may actually be very old and possibly Asian. This research has been considered questionable by some scholars because the samplings were NON REPRESENTATIVE of NATIVE ORIGIN Portuguese and Galicians. In fact, there were samples extracted from a small, old and socially isolated community where slaves and diseased outcasts historically settled. Quite ridiculous and makes you wonder what is being passed off for science these days. Yes, it seems some genetic "scientists" do have a racist agenda. And, they will end up in the dust bin of history along with all the other human trash...

So your point of view is that it is racist to suggest that there could be a little bit of sub-Saharan mtDNA in Iberia ? If there is any, it is unlikely to have come directly from sub-Saharan Africa anyway, but from the Maghreb, which undeniably has a lot of mtDNA haplogroup L (up to 45% in some parts of the Maghreb).

Wilhelm
27-10-09, 00:31
Levels are trivial for all European countries. There have been methodologically flawed "studies" that indicated slightly elevated levels in regions of Southern Italy, parts of Portugal and Galicia. However, there is great controversy concerning the exact type of "Sub-Saharan" DNA found, particularly in the cases of Portugal and Galicia. Much of the L DNA may actually be very old and possibly Asian. This research has been considered questionable by some scholars because the samplings were NON REPRESENTATIVE of NATIVE ORIGIN Portuguese and Galicians. In fact, there were samples extracted from a small, old and socially isolated community where slaves and diseased outcasts historically settled. Quite ridiculous and makes you wonder what is being passed off for science these days. Yes, it seems some genetic "scientists" do have a racist agenda. And, they will end up in the dust bin of history along with all the other human trash...

yes, obviously the mtDNA L in Europe is extremely low .

I just wanted to know the exact figures in Europe, from different studies.

For example in RacialReality (I think it's a Dienekes site) they say :


Combined data from two large mtDNA studies provides an estimate of non-Caucasoid maternal ancestry in Italians. The first study sampled 411 Italians from all over the country and found five South Asian M and East Asian D sequences (1.2%) and eight sub-Saharan African L sequences (1.9%). The second study sampled 465 Sicilians and detected ten M sequences (2.2%) and three L sequences (0.65%). This makes a total of 3% non-white maternal admixture (1.3% Asian and 1.7% African), which is very low and typical for European populations, since Pliss et al. 2005 (http://racialreality.110mb.com/references.html#Pliss_2005), e.g., observed 1.8% Asian admixture in Poles and 1.2% African admixture in Germans.
(Plaza et al. 2003 (http://racialreality.110mb.com/references.html#Plaza_2003);
Romano et al. 2003 (http://racialreality.110mb.com/references.html#Romano_2003))


In a sample of 542 Portuguese people from all over the country, sub-Saharan mtDNA L sequences were detected at a frequency of ~5% (2.2 in the North, 4.3 in the Center, and 8.6 in the South). This gives the Portuguese an estimated total of 2.5% Negroid ancestry, which ranges from a comparatively large, but not racially significant, 4.3% in the South to a mere 1.1% in the North.
(González et al. 2003 (http://racialreality.110mb.com/references.html#Gonzalez_2003))

In a sample of 125 Greeks from Thessaloniki and Sarakatsani, 2 Asian-specific mtDNA sequences (M and D) were detected (1.6%). No sub-Saharan African genes were observed in this population. Therefore, non-Caucasoid maternal ancestry in Greece is very low, as elsewhere in Europe.

(Richards et al. 2000)

Cambrius (The Red)
27-10-09, 03:16
So your point of view is that it is racist to suggest that there could be a little bit of sub-Saharan mtDNA in Iberia ? If there is any, it is unlikely to have come directly from sub-Saharan Africa anyway, but from the Maghreb, which undeniably has a lot of mtDNA haplogroup L (up to 45% in some parts of the Maghreb).

Of course Iberia has some low levels of Sub-Saharan DNA...

What I am saying is that there are unscrupulous people (mainly individuals of European descent) who will use questionable methodology and manipulate genetic findings to present an inaccurate picture of certain populations. They do this in order to project distorted perceptions, thus creating false and exaggerated racial notions of certain European peoples. Call this intra-racial racism, for lack of a better term. Some very clear-cut examples have been discussed here. As I'm sure you are aware, this is a particular problem with regards to Southern European genetic research. Ludicrous, to say the least, but an unfortunate reality. Regrettably, it seems we have some very twisted individuals floating about misusing genetic findings on a regular basis.

Cambrius (The Red)
27-10-09, 03:24
yes, obviously the mtDNA L in Europe is extremely low .

I just wanted to know the exact figures in Europe, from different studies.

For example in RacialReality (I think it's a Dienekes site) they say :


Combined data from two large mtDNA studies provides an estimate of non-Caucasoid maternal ancestry in Italians. The first study sampled 411 Italians from all over the country and found five South Asian M and East Asian D sequences (1.2%) and eight sub-Saharan African L sequences (1.9%). The second study sampled 465 Sicilians and detected ten M sequences (2.2%) and three L sequences (0.65%). This makes a total of 3% non-white maternal admixture (1.3% Asian and 1.7% African), which is very low and typical for European populations, since Pliss et al. 2005 (http://racialreality.110mb.com/references.html#Pliss_2005), e.g., observed 1.8% Asian admixture in Poles and 1.2% African admixture in Germans.
(Plaza et al. 2003 (http://racialreality.110mb.com/references.html#Plaza_2003);
Romano et al. 2003 (http://racialreality.110mb.com/references.html#Romano_2003))


In a sample of 542 Portuguese people from all over the country, sub-Saharan mtDNA L sequences were detected at a frequency of ~5% (2.2 in the North, 4.3 in the Center, and 8.6 in the South). This gives the Portuguese an estimated total of 2.5% Negroid ancestry, which ranges from a comparatively large, but not racially significant, 4.3% in the South to a mere 1.1% in the North.
(González et al. 2003 (http://racialreality.110mb.com/references.html#Gonzalez_2003))

In a sample of 125 Greeks from Thessaloniki and Sarakatsani, 2 Asian-specific mtDNA sequences (M and D) were detected (1.6%). No sub-Saharan African genes were observed in this population. Therefore, non-Caucasoid maternal ancestry in Greece is very low, as elsewhere in Europe.

(Richards et al. 2000)

It should be mentioned that Southern Portugal (Alentejo and Algarve) make up only 8% of the country's total population and a number of samples collected in this particular study are suspected of being NON REPRESENTATIVE of NATIVE ORIGIN or indigenous Portuguese people - not unlike the J1 "research" in Spain cited on another Eupedia thread.

I cannot comment on the Greek or Italian studies.

BTW, Racial Reality hardly has the best reputation.

^ lynx ^
29-12-09, 17:53
Wilhelm could you edit your message to delete the "scroll" effect? :confused2:

Wilhelm
29-12-09, 18:04
I cannot edit , it is too old. I don't know why there is this scroll effect :confused2:

Maciamo
29-12-09, 22:44
I removed the scroll effect for you.

^ lynx ^
29-12-09, 22:58
Thx Maciamo.

Maciamo
31-12-09, 19:08
I have started a new thread to discuss specifically about African haplogroups in Iberia (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25568), including mtDNA L.

This thread will be for mtDNA L frequencies in all Europe.

Wilhelm
31-12-09, 19:27
Why Iberia and not Europe ?

Maciamo
31-12-09, 19:39
Why Iberia and not Europe ?

I just split the numerous discussions already started by Spanish and Portuguese members of the forum recently. Furthermore, I do not have much data about mtDNA L in the rest of Europe, except Italy and Greece. Then, the spread of haplogroup E1b1b from Greece to Central Europe has already been well studied and is fairly straightforward (mostly E-V13 spreading with agriculture), unlike the high complexity of E1b1b subclades in Iberia from various origins.

Wilhelm
17-01-10, 21:38
In another recent study [3] on Norwegians, an L2 Sub-Saharan African sequence was found in the sample of 74 Norwegians (1.4% Sub-Saharan admixture).

3. Giuseppe Passarino et al., Different genetic components in the Norwegian population revealed by the analysis of mtDNA and Y chromosome polymorphisms, European Journal of Human Genetics10, 521 - 529 (23 Aug 2002)