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Neander
06-01-10, 20:49
Italy = 50% Dinaricized Mediterranean (most common in the south and Sicily), 20% Dinaric (most common in the north), 15% Alpine (most common in the northwest), 10% West Mediterranean (most common in Sardinia), 4% Noric (most common in the north, 1% Nordic (most common in the remnants of the Ostrogoth and Lombard aristocracy) = 5% Nordish (1% central and 4% periphery types). Italy, much like the other southern European countries of the Mediterranean region -- Spain, Portugal and Greece -- experienced several waves of Nordish invasions during ancient and early Medieval times, from the Danubians (circa 2,000-1,500 B.C.), who brought the Indo-European language that developed into Latin, and the Kelts (beginning circa 500 B.C.), to the Germanic Ostrogoths and Lombards (A.D. 400-700). These Nordish elements have been gradually assimilated into the majority Mediterranean population, but some of their genetic traits, existing in solution, occasionally recombine to appear in individuals whose other traits are mostly non-Nordish.

As we can see, we find Alpine race together with R1b.
West Mediterranean together with I2a1.
Nordic together with R1a.
Dinaric and dinaricized mediterraneans together with J2 and E1b1b.

maltesekid
06-01-10, 21:07
what about east mediterranean greeks? isnt there a east med race as well? and what about the maltese? and how about the armenian armenoid type? are they j2 j1 or e? arabians are j1 the arabid type i think! you also forgot I1 which is aboriginal scandinavian

Wilhelm
07-01-10, 04:12
what about east mediterranean greeks? isnt there a east med race as well? and what about the maltese? and how about the armenian armenoid type? are they j2 j1 or e? arabians are j1 the arabid type i think! you also forgot I1 which is aboriginal scandinavian
The I1 was born in Iberia,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/db/Genomap01.jpg/800px-Genomap01.jpg

Wilhelm
07-01-10, 04:22
As we can see, we find Alpine race together with R1b.
West Mediterranean together with I2a1.
Nordic together with R1a.
Dinaric and dinaricized mediterraneans together with J2 and E1b1b.

Where is the scientific foundation of this ??

Cambrius (The Red)
07-01-10, 04:28
As we can see, we find Alpine race together with R1b.
West Mediterranean together with I2a1.
Nordic together with R1a.
Dinaric and dinaricized mediterraneans together with J2 and E1b1b.


What reference(s) are you using? I don't believe some of what you quoting is accurate.

Maciamo
07-01-10, 11:43
R1b is the dominant haplogroup in parts of Cameroon, among the Bashkirs in Russia, in some parts of central India, and in some Afghan tribes. These people do not look at all like each others, and not at all like the Irish, the Basque or Northern Italians, who also don't look like each others.

I think this shows well how Y-DNA has very little to do with looks.

maltesekid
07-01-10, 13:38
yeah so how do you determine how someone looks ? autosomal?

Maciamo
07-01-10, 13:42
yeah so how do you determine how someone looks ? autosomal?

yes, autosomal

Neander
07-01-10, 14:45
I opened the thread to talk about THE LAST apearence of a group people which belong to a certain haplogroup, before they settlet in certain places.

In Northwest Italia are a lot of alpines, and a lot of R1b. This is fact.

That means that these are invaders from other places where alpines R1b lived.

Neander
07-01-10, 14:46
Also, we find in Sardinia a lot of I1a1 and also a West mediterranean Race.

Also we find I1a1 in Spain, together with West mediteranean race. So we conclude that before arriving of R1b, the Iberia was I1a1.

And we conclude that I1a1 at one time was linked to West mediteranean race.

Sprinkles
08-01-10, 04:53
As we can see, we find Alpine race together with R1b.
West Mediterranean together with I2a1.
Nordic together with R1a.
Dinaric and dinaricized mediterraneans together with J2 and E1b1b.

How do you define Dinaric? As in, the mountains? If so, the highest frequency haplogroup is I2a2. E1b1b seems to be regulated to Albania with highest frequency and become much lower in any direction.

Neander
08-01-10, 05:04
I2a2 is linked to slavic people. In the highest level of I2a2, we find cephalic index 86.

But in the Albania we find cephalic index 88. So E1b1b is linked to dinaric race.

I2a2 took dinaric features after they marry local illyrian woman.

rms2
09-01-10, 19:03
Linking race to y-dna haplogroups is an almost impossible task, except perhaps in some sort of very broad and general terms. Autosomal dna is recombinant. It does not identify itself neatly; that is, it doesn't tell you where it came from. Some traits are dominant, and others are recessive. That plays out across the whole panoply of human physiological and phenotypical characteristics. It's just too complex a subject to enable us to say, simply, that this y haplogroup is "Nordic" or that one is "Alpine," etc.

The best one can do is say that certain y haplogroups are mostly European, while others are mostly African or Asian, etc. Even then there are exceptions and overlaps.

Wilhelm
09-01-10, 19:08
This has been discussed hundreds of times already. You can be of different races and belong to a same haplogroup. Plus, there are different subclades of different origin from a same haplogroups (example J and E subclades in europeans)..etc

Cambrius (The Red)
09-01-10, 19:52
This has been discussed hundreds of times already. You can be of different races and belong to a same haplogroup. Plus, there are different subclades of different origin from a same haplogroups (example J and E subclades in europeans)..etc

You have to properly analyse the STRs and the subclades to determine genetic native origin. A person can be R1b and have STRs and subclade markers that are far different from other R1b persons. R1b from the Atlantic end of Europe, for example, is generally quite dissimilar to what is found in, say, the eastern or northern areas of the continent.

Neander
09-01-10, 22:59
This has been discussed hundreds of times already. You can be of different races and belong to a same haplogroup. Plus, there are different subclades of different origin from a same haplogroups (example J and E subclades in europeans)..It is out of topic.

I am talking of completely diferent thread.

It is not hard to see, that R1b, was alpine before coming to Italy.

Hmmm, Yes, it could be and Negro in another place or another time, ort mogol, or even dog or wolf.

BUT...

I am saying BEFORE COMING FROM ALPS TO ITALY.

They were alpine people in Alps or Gallia, with R1b. This brought alpine race and R1b in the Italy.

Wilhelm
09-01-10, 23:37
It is out of topic.
Hmmm, Yes, it could be and Negro in another place or another time, ort mogol, or even dog or wolf.

BUT...

I am saying BEFORE COMING FROM ALPS TO ITALY.

They were alpine people in Alps or Gallia, with R1b. This brought alpine race and R1b in the Italy.
Actually Cameroon has a pocket of R1b people...But obviously is not the same branch of R1b as the one found in Europe..

Sprinkles
10-01-10, 01:26
I2a2 is linked to slavic people. In the highest level of I2a2, we find cephalic index 86.

But in the Albania we find cephalic index 88. So E1b1b is linked to dinaric race.

I2a2 took dinaric features after they marry local illyrian woman.
What are you talking about? Are you really this delusional?

Firstly, I should address the point you made. With respect to Illyrians, the inhabitant haplogroups were there thousands of years prior to "Illyria." So, I would assume a mixture of E1b1b and I2a2, with E1b1b relagated to a few Illyria tribes in the south. I would assume the Illyria's north of Albania to be I2a2 with a very high concentration in Hercegovina. Most Illyrian tribes would be I2a2. The Illyrian tribes that came in contact with Greeks would probably be E1b1b and I2a2. The cultural capital of Illyria was Stolac, Hercogina - this haplogroup would most definitely be I2a2.

Secondly, the Dinaric Alps constitute a much broader area from Albania to Slovenia. The haplogroup with the highest frequency is I2a2. E1b1b is regulated to Albania.

Please show evidence that the E1b1b has the cephalic index of 88 and I2a2 of 86. This is pure speculation and nonsense. If you got this from a cephalic index map, it is hardly a measure of haplogroup correlation with cephalic index. You continue to make things up.

Thirdly, the fact that I2a2 is found in slavic countries has nothing to do with the the highest frequency being found among the Dinaric Alps. This is more attest to gene flow from the Dinaric Alps into slavic countries. E1b1b does not show the same gene flow, so, one would assume it's not as fit for the climate as I2a2 is.

Everything you have posted about this is rhetoric that is fancied in a way that you draw erroneous inferences from presumptions.

Joro
10-01-10, 05:08
I2a2 has certainly not been brought with the Slavs.
in western Croatia,which is untouched by Turks and keeps the original Croatian dialect,and is considered the 'purest' Slavic area in Croatia,you have 38% of R1a and only 9.5% of dinaric I2a,which is btw nothing more than amount of I2a found in northern Italian province of Trento,which is certainly not Slavic in any way(see 'agricultural diffusion southeast europe')
in dinaric areas of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina you have over 70% I2a and only 12% R1a.
Second highest concentration of I2a outside east Adriatic-western Balkans is in Romanian historical province of Moldova(41%).
P.S. i don't believe there is 25% of I2a in Belarus,they should make a new study.Haplogroup I classification has changed significantly in time.

LeBrok
10-01-10, 09:49
I2a2 has certainly not been brought with the Slavs.
in western Croatia,which is untouched by Turks and keeps the original Croatian dialect,and is considered the 'purest' Slavic area in Croatia,you have 38% of R1a and only 9.5% of dinaric I2a,which is btw nothing more than amount of I2a found in northern Italian province of Trento,which is certainly not Slavic in any way(see 'agricultural diffusion southeast europe')
in dinaric areas of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina you have over 70% I2a and only 12% R1a.
Second highest concentration of I2a outside east Adriatic-western Balkans is in Romanian historical province of Moldova(41%).
P.S. i don't believe there is 25% of I2a in Belarus,they should make a new study.Haplogroup I classification has changed significantly in time.


Hi Joro, look at this map.
http://pl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plik:Slavic_peoples_9c_map.jpg&filetimestamp=20090604081328
North of Carpathian Mountains there are two tribes : W.Chrobatians and R.Chrobations (Ch=H). I checked few sources and it means Horvats. In English it translates as White Croats and Red Croats. Croats arrived in Dinaric Alps around 600 BC with Slavic Expansion. Where did they come from? If one can trust this map and some historians, it might show the remnants of Croatians tribes that didn't move south. I read in polish text that White Croats stopped North the Red Croats South in Dinaric Mountains. Now when you look at the map where Red Chrobatians are. They are located exactly between Moldova in south, and Belarus in north. Now the puzzle of heavy I2a in Moldova, South Croatia and Belarus makes sense.
White Chrobatians come from region also called Little Poland and heavy in R1a.
Not sure myself how much water it holds, but it makes some sense. What do you think? It would explain the colours on your flag though. :grin:

Recently I've read few research papers, in polish though futile to post here then. The thing is that more and more historians come to conclusion that first millennium (probably much before) Slavs in central Europe where already a mixture of R1a and I2a, and not pure R1a.

Neander
10-01-10, 10:51
Actually Cameroon has a pocket of R1b people...But obviously is not the same branch of R1b as the one found in Europe..Cool...

I ask you what race were these R1b during their invasion in the Cameroon?

Neander
10-01-10, 11:01
Secondly, the Dinaric Alps constitute a much broader area from Albania to Slovenia. The haplogroup with the highest frequency is I2a2. E1b1b is regulated to Albania.
I am not surprised that E1b1b is regulated to Albania. During slavic invasion the illyrians after unsuccsesful fighting were located to today Albania, where still are present memories of Jutbina and Klladusha in albanian songs. The majority of North albanians trace their origin in the North Dinaric Alps.

Please show evidence that the E1b1b has the cephalic index of 88 and I2a2 of 86.
From C.C The races of Europe:

The mean cephalic index of the Bosnians is over 85; this varies by religions, with the Catholics the most brachycephalic (86), and the Moslems the least (84).
And for Albania:

The only adequate anthropometric data extant which deals with the Toscs is a series from southwestern Albania, from the town of Gjinokastër and its neighborhood.
Their cephalic index mean, 90.8, is by far the highest recorded in Europe.

Maciamo
10-01-10, 14:47
Cool...
I ask you what race were these R1b during their invasion in the Cameroon?

No ancient remains had been DNA tested this part of Africa yet, so no one knows what they looked like back then. The age of the African R1b-V88 (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/01/r-v88-and-migration-of-chadic-speakers.html) is estimated between 15,000 and 10,000 years old based on Y-DNA mutation rate alone.

Joro
10-01-10, 15:56
Hi Joro, look at this map.
http://pl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plik:Slavic_peoples_9c_map.jpg&filetimestamp=20090604081328
North of Carpathian Mountains there are two tribes : W.Chrobatians and R.Chrobations (Ch=H). I checked few sources and it means Horvats. In English it translates as White Croats and Red Croats. Croats arrived in Dinaric Alps around 600 BC with Slavic Expansion. Where did they come from? If one can trust this map and some historians, it might show the remnants of Croatians tribes that didn't move south. I read in polish text that White Croats stopped North the Red Croats South in Dinaric Mountains. Now when you look at the map where Red Chrobatians are. They are located exactly between Moldova in south, and Belarus in north. Now the puzzle of heavy I2a in Moldova, South Croatia and Belarus makes sense.
White Chrobatians come from region also called Little Poland and heavy in R1a.
Not sure myself how much water it holds, but it makes some sense. What do you think? It would explain the colours on your flag though. :grin:

Recently I've read few research papers, in polish though futile to post here then. The thing is that more and more historians come to conclusion that first millennium (probably much before) Slavs in central Europe where already a mixture of R1a and I2a, and not pure R1a.
that's sympathic but i don't believe slavs brought I2a,maybe 1-2% but not more.the purest slavic areas in croatia have big R1a and their I2a is not more common than in north Italy.enough said.
25% for Belarus is too much,it simply makes no logic.there should be a new testing for thata rea definitively,and i'm sure it wouldn't show more than 15%.

Joro
10-01-10, 22:16
I've found only this for Belarus: http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/22/10/1964
And It shows 15% of I2a,while Bulgarians have no I2a according to that research.Although there are only 24 samples for Bulgarians,but to find none I2a at all is indicative.There should be new,enough-sampled,complete study,taking in account the changes in haplogroup I classification.For example,we first had the 'Eu7' and 'Eu8' containing the haplogroup I,and according to that Croats and Bosniaks carried the same dominant gene as Scandinavians,and the Sardinians were Eu8.While now Scandinavian and western-Balkan I are clearly divided,and western-Balkan I is more related to that of Sardinia and SW Europe than to Scandinavian I1.

K_Sacana_Blomqvist
02-02-10, 22:49
Linking race to y-dna haplogroups is an almost impossible task, except perhaps in some sort of very broad and general terms. Autosomal dna is recombinant. It does not identify itself neatly; that is, it doesn't tell you where it came from. Some traits are dominant, and others are recessive. That plays out across the whole panoply of human physiological and phenotypical characteristics. It's just too complex a subject to enable us to say, simply, that this y haplogroup is "Nordic" or that one is "Alpine," etc.

The best one can do is say that certain y haplogroups are mostly European, while others are mostly African or Asian, etc. Even then there are exceptions and overlaps.

that's exactly what there's is to it. Nothing conclusive. Completly academic and theoretical discourse that has no bearing what so ever on any ethnic or "racial" characteristics of today.

I admit, it can be addictive to the enthusiasts. Still, despite the same gene markers the Scandinavians and Spanish r different physically from Persians or Hindus. Equally, the non IE Basques r similar to the surrounding IE Spanish as the IE Swedes are to the non IE Finnish

Sprinkles
03-02-10, 01:52
Hi Joro, look at this map.
http://pl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plik:Slavic_peoples_9c_map.jpg&filetimestamp=20090604081328
North of Carpathian Mountains there are two tribes : W.Chrobatians and R.Chrobations (Ch=H). I checked few sources and it means Horvats. In English it translates as White Croats and Red Croats. Croats arrived in Dinaric Alps around 600 BC with Slavic Expansion. Where did they come from? If one can trust this map and some historians, it might show the remnants of Croatians tribes that didn't move south. I read in polish text that White Croats stopped North the Red Croats South in Dinaric Mountains. Now when you look at the map where Red Chrobatians are. They are located exactly between Moldova in south, and Belarus in north. Now the puzzle of heavy I2a in Moldova, South Croatia and Belarus makes sense.
White Chrobatians come from region also called Little Poland and heavy in R1a.
Not sure myself how much water it holds, but it makes some sense. What do you think? It would explain the colours on your flag though. :grin:
Recently I've read few research papers, in polish though futile to post here then. The thing is that more and more historians come to conclusion that first millennium (probably much before) Slavs in central Europe where already a mixture of R1a and I2a, and not pure R1a.
The evidence points to an origin of I2a2 in the Balkans, specifically Hercegovina.

Maciamo
03-02-10, 11:08
The evidence points to an origin of I2a2 in the Balkans, specifically Hercegovina.

I think that I2a2 was present all over the Balkans and Carpathians before the Neolithic. At that time people were (semi-)nomadic hunter-gatherers so it is pointless to try to define a fixed area of origin.

The first farmers from Greece pushed their way through the Balkans along the main rivers and the most fertile lands. They split the hunter-gatherers in two groups, one in Illyria and the other in the mountains of north-east Romania. The latter adopted agriculture quickly (probably with some population blending with the Near-Eastern farmers) and developed the Cucuteni-Tripolye culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture), which later expanded into Moldova and western Ukraine. This late Cucuteni-Tripolye area matches very well the modern distribution of I2a2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HaplogroupI2.png).

If I2a2 is more common and diverse around Bosnia-Herzegovina nowadays it is perhaps simply because this region was better sheltered from migrations for the last 10,000 years. The Cucuteni-Tripolye culture was overrun by waves of steppe immigrants for 5000 consecutive years (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25619). It's a wonder that so much I2a2 survived there at all.