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Neander
08-01-10, 04:45
Let's talk about Basque.

Here is a link which can be ground of this thread:

http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/basques.shtml

So, was Rh- brought by R1b peoples here, or it was native to Europe?
Why basque have least B blood group in Europe?
Why Basque speak non-IE language?
Is it language which they brought from Asia?
What tells us Basque mythology about ancient times?
Were the R1b Alpine race, which in turn was a mix of their original race with mongolian broadheaded of Haplogroup N in NW Asia?

And...

Why there are some related word of Basque and Ainu people??

http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/bronze/ainu.htm

Does that mean that Ainu and Tibetans, which have the comon haplogroup D, had the same language "Proto-Ainu", and as we know R1b oldest is foun in Tajikistan near the Tibet, se they could borrow words from each other??

Maciamo
08-01-10, 13:02
Let's talk about Basque.

Here is a link which can be ground of this thread:

http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/basques.shtml

So, was Rh- brought by R1b peoples here, or it was native to Europe?

Rhesus- is almost not found in non-European populations, so it must be native to Europe.

However, I found this dubious map (http://garyfelix.tripod.com/RHneg.JPG) that claims that Rh- is more common in Africa, India and the Middle-East than in Europe. It also shows Xinjiang as having a high incidence. But I couldn't find any serious website corroborating this data.




Why there are some related word of Basque and Ainu people??

http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/bronze/ainu.htm

Does that mean that Ainu and Tibetans, which have the comon haplogroup D, had the same language "Proto-Ainu", and as we know R1b oldest is foun in Tajikistan near the Tibet, se they could borrow words from each other??

I don't know any Basque or Ainu so I cannot say if this site is trustworthy or not, but the similarities listed are breathtaking. I don't see how these two ethnicities, at the opposite end of the Eurasian continent, could possibly be related.

Note that Tibetan and Ainu are not even in the same linguistic family, despite the common hg D (well, the Ainu/Jomon Japanese are D2, while the Tibetans are D3a, and the two subclades probably split over 30,000 years ago, so I wouldn't expect any linguistic similarity).

The only far-fetched connection I could think of is that some Ainu (but few) belong to mt-haplogroup G and Y, which are found from Eastern to Western Siberia (around the Ural). The Indo-European's homeland extended until th Ural, so it is possible (but very far-fetched and unlikely) that some Uralic tribes moved to Europe with them. But the Basque have no mtDNA G or Y or any other sign of Siberian DNA. Then why would an IE-affiliated tribe not speak an IE language, when everybody else adopted IE languages from Europe to India ? So it must be just a very dumbfounding linguistic coincidence.

maltesekid
08-01-10, 14:36
I heard some people said basque is related to some of the caucasus languages but other people say it was related to ancient iberian im not sure!

Neander
08-01-10, 17:40
Then why would an IE-affiliated tribe not speak an IE language, when everybody else adopted IE languages from Europe to India ? So it must be just a very dumbfounding linguistic coincidence.No I thought they just borrowed some words.

However, what is your theory about Basque language?

Basque was spoken in a wider territory in ancient times, it was Aquitan language, which was spoken in whole south France. So it mus have been a primary language for many R1b tribes.

But who spreaded celtic?

Who spread Iberian, which acordong to scientists is not related to basque?

Is the Basque original language of R1b, or native language of captived wives?

Neander
27-01-10, 13:12
If you have time, make an experiment.

Calculate, if 50% Rh+ male&female will mix with 50% Rh- male&female, how much % Rh- will be after 2 or 3 generations.

And specially look, which male lineage will decrease in number.

I made it, and I found that the population with Rh+ will decrease in number of its Y-chromosomes, and population with Rh- will decrease in the number of its Female lineage.

Also the percentage of Rh+ will decrease throw the time.

This show, that Basque might have been, original Rh- people, and after mixing with european natives, their male lineage has increased to 80% and more, but their female lineage has decreased in favour of european mtdna. And Rh+ has decreased through the time but, it has the highest peak at the Basque people who must be the original ethnicity of R1b haplogroup.

Segia
01-02-10, 18:32
No I thought they just borrowed some words.

However, what is your theory about Basque language?

Basque was spoken in a wider territory in ancient times, it was Aquitan language, which was spoken in whole south France. So it mus have been a primary language for many R1b tribes.

But who spreaded celtic?

Who spread Iberian, which acordong to scientists is not related to basque?

Is the Basque original language of R1b, or native language of captived wives?

Iberian is someway related to basque. The problem is that we have no record of basque-aquitanian language 2000 y.a, with the exception of some anthroponyms, toponyms and theonyms, very concentrated in southwestern France (in Spain the density is lower and located mainly in northern Navarre and NW Aragon)

Maybe ancient aquitanian and iberian weren't brothers, but they were at least cousins (in Iberia and S France there is a geographic coincidence between historical iberians-vasco-aquitanians and Urnfields culture)

Ethnic and linguistic genesis of human populations is far more complicated that linking single haplogroups to languages, cultures and middle-earth fashioned ecuestrian invasions.

A genetic mutation doesn't implies a linguistic change.

Neander
01-02-10, 19:42
There are some similar words of Basque with other languages f.ex "Mother" in Basque is "ama" the same as in albanian "ama", 'woman" in baque is "andere" which is counterpart of greek "ander" (man), then number two in basque is "biru" which is similar to latin "bini", 'father' in basque is 'aita' with some similarity with albanian 'ati' with the same meaning.

And, it is important, the vigesimal system of numbering in Europe is found only in three languages: Basque, Albanian and French.

^ lynx ^
01-02-10, 21:03
There's a popular basque song entitled "Txoria txori" (The Bird) by Mikel Laboa. A basque singer called Gontzal Mendibil made a japanese version of it entitled "Tori yo tori" (you can find it on internet).

I think there's indeed a link between basque a some asiatic languanges but there's also some words similar to the guanche language (guanche's were the natives of the Canary Islands).

Guanche -Basque -English

ache- etxe - house
aho- aho - mouth
aga - aka - dead
ana - ana - sister
hama - ura - water
urin - urin - meat

Segia
01-02-10, 21:35
There are some similar words of Basque with other languages f.ex "Mother" in Basque is "ama" the same as in albanian "ama", 'woman" in baque is "andere" which is counterpart of greek "ander" (man), then number two in basque is "biru" which is similar to latin "bini", 'father' in basque is 'aita' with some similarity with albanian 'ati' with the same meaning.

And, it is important, the vigesimal system of numbering in Europe is found only in three languages: Basque, Albanian and French.

We don't know if aita and ama ar patronimical basque or loanwords, but the structure mama/ama/ema/umma is widespread around the world; aita resembles celtic languages (without initial indoeuropean "p", substratum, adstratum, superstratum or distant realtionship?)

Ainder is also shared by gaelic with similar meaning as in basque (superstratum, adstratum, substratum or distant relationship??)

You have more words with the same problem: adarc, gaelic (horn), in basque adar. Mendi is mountain in basque, mons in latin, mynyyd in gaelic, bundo in gaulish, argi is light in basque, with the same radix you have different cognates in several IE languages (argentum -lat.-, argantom -celt-, harki -hitt-, arki -tocc-....all related to bright, light, silver...)

It's very complicated. No one knows the age of hg's and which was the language of its first carrier when took place. And no one knows how the IE (linguistic matter) could be developed. All is based on speculations, better o worse built, but I don't think that it should be a one-kind militaristic epysode. Languages spread/change/mix in several ways.

Eireannach
02-02-10, 19:29
Ainder is also shared by gaelic with similar meaning as in basque (superstratum, adstratum, substratum or distant relationship??)

I've never heard of this word Ainder, and I speak Irish.


You have more words with the same problem: adarc, gaelic (horn), in basque adar. Mendi is mountain in basque, mons in latin, mynyyd in gaelic, bundo in gaulish, argi is light in basque, with the same radix you have different cognates in several IE languages (argentum -lat.-, argantom -celt-, harki -hitt-, arki -tocc-....all related to bright, light, silver...)

This isn't a Gaelic word at all. Its doesn't even look gaelic. It looks Welsh though, which is completely different from Gaelic.

Cambrius (The Red)
02-02-10, 19:59
I think it may well be Welsh.

Cambrius (The Red)
02-02-10, 20:00
What is interesting is that the first Celtic language, going by the rapidly accumulating evidence, was Tartessian (Southern-Portugal and SW Spain).

Wilhelm
02-02-10, 20:58
Similiarities with celtic

Horn :
Irish Celt : Adarc
basque : Adar

Woman :
Irish Celt : Ainder
basque : Andere

Stone :
Irish Celt : Carrac
basque : Harri

Wilhelm
02-02-10, 21:04
Similairities with Iberian :

Iberian - Basque - English

Mbe - ni - I

Salir - Zilar - Money/Silver

Biskar - Bizkar - Back

Biur - Bihur - Twisted

Bios - Bihotz - Heart

Ildun - Ilun - Dark

Beles - Beltz - Black

K_Sacana_Blomqvist
02-02-10, 21:42
the fact is that the Basque language is the only survival from the time prior to IE arrival.
I looked up some linquistic papers that tried to link Basque to other lang. It's pure speculation. Nothing conclusive. So my guess is it's the same with same with ainou or any other language.
Etruscans left artifacts and names but no other records.
The haplogroups and the defined mutations that can link together different populations are completly inconclusive, in my opinion, bcuz these mutations occured 10.000 - 15.000 yrs ago. Hardly any reason to feel any kind of kinship? smile:
Conclusion: the Basques can enjoy the exclsive title of the most ancient Europeans

Cambrius (The Red)
02-02-10, 21:57
Yes, I think that it has been shown that the oldest European DNA is found in the Basque country. Iberians, in general, have the oldest DNA in Europe, it seems.

Maciamo
03-02-10, 11:13
Yes, I think that it has been shown that the oldest European DNA is found in the Basque country. Iberians, in general, have the oldest DNA in Europe, it seems.

What do you mean by oldest DNA ? The one that had evolved the least over time ? :disappointed:

If you are referring to the age of Y-DNA, Basque R1b is the same age as other western European R1b.

Cambrius (The Red)
04-02-10, 21:11
What do you mean by oldest DNA ? The one that had evolved the least over time ? :disappointed:

If you are referring to the age of Y-DNA, Basque R1b is the same age as other western European R1b.

If, as many believe, the Basques were the first true "modern" settlers of Europe, they would have the oldest DNA of all European peoples, but ONLY Europeans. I'm not expert enough to comment effectively on DNA evolvement levels...

Maciamo
05-02-10, 11:52
If, as many believe, the Basques were the first true "modern" settlers of Europe, they would have the oldest DNA of all European peoples, but ONLY Europeans. I'm not expert enough to comment effectively on DNA evolvement levels...

The Basques were by no means the first. ALL Europeans have inherited DNA from Paleolithic Europeans. Judging from Y-DNA hg I and mtDNA H1, H3, U5 and V, those who inherited the most DNA from Paleolithic Europeans are the Saami, Finns, Scandinavians, Bosnians, Croatians, then only the Basques (because it's only mtDNA).

Segia
05-02-10, 13:38
Maciamo, why do you think R1b is so especially high in historical prerroman non-IE speaking regions such as Aquitania, Navarre and Gipuzkoa, Catalonia...?

Wilhelm
15-02-10, 19:57
The Basques were by no means the first. ALL Europeans have inherited DNA from Paleolithic Europeans. Judging from Y-DNA hg I and mtDNA H1, H3, U5 and V, those who inherited the most DNA from Paleolithic Europeans are the Saami, Finns, Scandinavians, Bosnians, Croatians, then only the Basques (because it's only mtDNA).
Spaniards are one of the most Paleolithic and least Neolithic of all euroepans.

..the origins of the Iberian Y-chromosome pool may be summarized as follows: 5% recent NW African, 78% Upper Paleolithic and later local derivatives (group IX), and 10% Neolithic (H58, H71). No haplotype assumed to have originated in sub-Saharan Africa was found in our Iberian sample. It should be noted that H58 and H71 are not the only haplotypes present in the Middle East and that the Neolithic wave of advance could have brought other lineages to Iberia and NW Africa.

Bosch et al. 2001

firetown
09-09-16, 17:52
However, I found this that claims that Rh- is more common in Africa, India and the Middle-East than in Europe. It also shows Xinjiang as having a high incidence. But I couldn't find any serious website corroborating this data.

I have the most comprehensive list of blood type frequencies in the world on my site and just one look makes me realize at least 10 things I can disprove right now 100 percent with several studies done each.

Dibran
25-09-16, 07:08
My mother is H11a which is common in the basques. She and myself are also RH- curious about basque origins as well.

firetown
06-12-16, 12:27
Rhesus- is almost not found in non-European populations, so it must be native to Europe.

I have to disagree with this. There are indications that the original Basques were 100 percent rh negative or rather are descendants of a 100 percent rh negative group of people. What we see today is the Basques after 1,000s of years of mixing with neighbors. Originally likely without any blood type B. Possibly even 100 percent O negative. This group likely coming from the Fertile Crescent being the first Europeans.


However, I found this dubious map (http://garyfelix.tripod.com/RHneg.JPG) that claims that Rh- is more common in Africa, India and the Middle-East than in Europe. It also shows Xinjiang as having a high incidence. But I couldn't find any serious website corroborating this data.

Xinjiang has about 4.71% rh negatives, 10 times the frequency almost of China as a whole:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15090322





I don't know any Basque or Ainu so I cannot say if this site is trustworthy or not,

Not trustworthy. Aside from copying mostly, his assumptions appear not what a university professor should voice.
Example:
http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/bronze/seapeopl.htm


... Rh-negative population in Chad, still living near the formerly enormous Chad lake. Only part of this lake still exists on the spot where the boundaries of Chad, Niger, Nigeria and Cameroon meet. These people may originally have been the sailors on Chad lake. Could it be that this is the original location of the Rh-negative population that then moved to Morocco and Algiers to become the Berbers? Or would it be the other way around?

and:


When the Rh-negative people, we now call Berbers, first came to what is today Euskadi (pronounced: oos-ká-di), the Basque country, they found there a small but most creative population which, according to the archaeologists, may have lived there already for some 20,000 years before the Rh-negative peoples arrived.

I will probably start a seperate thread on the last point made, but figured I throw this in to question his Ainu Basque comparison alongside other statements he has made.

johen
07-12-16, 18:39
http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/bronze/seapeopl.htm

... Rh-negative population in Chad, still living near the formerly enormous Chad lake. Only part of this lake still exists on the spot where the boundaries of Chad, Niger, Nigeria and Cameroon meet. These people may originally have been the sailors on Chad lake. Could it be that this is the original location of the Rh-negative population that then moved to Morocco and Algiers to become the Berbers? Or would it be the other way around?



I think there's indeed a link between basque and some asiatic languanges but there's also some words similar to the guanche language (guanche's were the natives of the Canary Islands).

Guanche -Basque -English

ache- etxe - house
aho- aho - mouth
aga - aka - dead
ana - ana - sister
hama - ura - water
urin - urin - meat

Pretty intersting.
150 years ago, american professor said that Indo European appeared as early as 2,000bc. How could he say that without genetic analysis? It was “150 years ago.”
Moreover, he mentioned there were two empires of the Iberians and pelasgians before indoeuropean came. The iberians came from nothern africa, when the berbers were gaining possession. And Basques are the only existing remnants of the Iberians. Basque language has some similarities to american Indian, but their cranial types to the Gauches and Berbers
https://archive.org/stream/jstor-25118417/25118417#page/n1/mode/2up

1. chade people, basque, sardinian have R1b-v88. Sardinian ancestors are connected to Pelasgian and Basque.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33130-EEF-gave-Africa-R1b-V88?p=495235#post495235

2. Basque language is similar to asiatic, american Indian language. Sumerian also right? That is why your ethnicity is sumerian. Nostratic caused by ANE R, Q???

LeBrok
07-12-16, 19:43
Pretty intersting.
150 years ago, american professor said that Indo European appeared as early as 2,000bc. How could he say that without genetic analysis? It was “150 years ago.” Because some people are nuts. They have a medical condition called schizophrenia and they see things that don't exist. Others just don't have good logic. They can't see obvious patterns, and to make it worse, they make connections where patterns don't exist. What scary is that both type of people truly believe they are right and unmistaken.

firetown
02-11-17, 14:23
150 years ago, american professor said that Indo European appeared as early as 2,000bc. How could he say that without genetic analysis? It was “150 years ago.”
That is just silly. Especially considering we are seeing results from 5,000 year old burial grounds in the Basque region. And for example, up to 24% mtDNA haplogroup K being present. This clearly shows a non-European origin of the original settlers in the Pyrenees.
http://www.rhesusnegative.net/staynegative/is-there-a-basque-jewish-rh-negative-connection/

Moreover, he mentioned there were two empires of the Iberians and pelasgians before indoeuropean came.
How long ago exactly did the ancestors of the Basques arrive?

The iberians came from nothern africa, when the berbers were gaining possession. And Basques are the only existing remnants of the Iberians.
I have seen the claim a lot of times that Basques descend from Berbers, but that also makes no sense considering the lack of significant E1b1b present in the Basque population. But it is possible that Basques are indeed the only remnant of a mix of those who settled in the Pyrenees and their original Iberian neighbors.

Basque language has some similarities to american Indian, but their cranial types to the Gauches and Berbers
I did look this up a while back and yes, there are definitely language similarities. As for cranial types, Berbers, Basques and Native Americans all share large percentages of Neanderthal DNA. Could this be the origin of their similarities?

1. chade people, basque, sardinian have R1b-v88. Sardinian ancestors are connected to Pelasgian and Basque.
Interesting. I fail to see Chad being the original location of an rh negative population though. Again, the increase of mtDNA J and K in ancient Basques leads me to believe in a Fertile Crescent origin. From there a migration also leading towards Sardinia where we do see a y-DNA hotspot. I have not been looking at the Pelasgians previous, but will do so now.

2. Basque language is similar to asiatic, american Indian language. Sumerian also right?
Indeed. Dene-Caucasian's subdivisions include Basque and Sumerian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Den%C3%A9%E2%80%93Caucasian_languages
Here is a map:
9426

That is why your ethnicity is sumerian.
I am looking at my own family background and from various angles, all seems to trace back to that region.

Nostratic caused by ANE R, Q???
Sorry, I don't follow.
Sorry about the late reply. But better late than never. :)