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Neander
17-01-10, 17:12
Where we find brachycephaly?

Where did it come from?

Brachycephaly is characteristic of Dinaric, Alpine, Noric, Borreby, Armenoid and Neodanubian races.

How was created firstly?

Maciamo
17-01-10, 19:51
I am not sure. I am interested to know too.

Sprinkles
18-01-10, 00:39
It appears that it correlates with mountainous regions of Europe.

With such a high degree of correlation, we can assume that cro-magnum, who was not highly adapted to European climate and mountaneous terrains would have likely had difficulty in transversing and adapting to these regions. The neanderthals would have remained as they were, and since they had evolved for 400,000 years in Europe, in seasonal climates and cold weather, the genome would not as easily have been diluted in these areas of which they have adaptive advantages over cro-magnum. The gene pool in these areas is most likely a high degree of neanderthal genome.

Secondly, I know that Neander if fixated on a town in Albania showing the highest cephalic index in Europe, and he is somewhat fixated on the idea that this genome is E1b1b. There is no evidence for this assumption. The genome could very well be I2a2. Secondly, regions of which I2a2 is of 70% frequency show very high levels of brachcephaly. The E1b1b of Albania is 22%, while I2a2 is 17%. We can't infer from this anything since the frequency is not high enough - and thus does not gives us any probability to assume that it's either one or the other. On the other hand, in areas of 70% frequency, or more, of i2a2 - there is a high level of Brachycephaly.

An albanian village showing a high level of brachycephaly does not indicate it is the highest in Europe. Where my father is from, in Hercegovina, the population of his town and our siblings are very high brachcephaly. People in these regions are not favorable to foreigners and people are skeptical of outsiders. I would be suprised if villages in Hercegovina did no represent much higher cephalic index than that presumed to be the mean of the areas. I know, for example, my fathers lineage has probably the largest cephalic index i've ever observed from a micro-population.

Joro
18-01-10, 05:05
Sprinkles,there is an interesting new study about Croatian cranium:
http://hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?show=clanak&id_clanak_jezik=42706

and it says we are mostly dolicephalic(!!)

Samples are from Zagreb-which sould say a mix of whole Croatia.
I don't know how this Coon's cephalic index is reliable after 70 years.There is also a study for southern Dalmatia(where people are basically the same as in your Herzegovina),and results there show most people are mesocephalic.

Sprinkles
18-01-10, 06:54
Zagreb shows a lower cephalic index than Hercegovina and the frequency of I2a2 is much lower in northern Croatia. Probably due to admixture of populations to the northeast, which have little mountainous terrain. Zagreb is not very mountainous, which would also correspond to my original hypothesis.

Neander
18-01-10, 10:32
But Zagreb was used as a presentation of whole Croatia because there are people from whole country.

Neander
18-01-10, 10:35
Somebody who knows geography and geology,

there are two types of mountains, New and Old,,

New mountains are Alps, Dinarides, Pirinees, Apenines, Carpathians, Caucasus, etc.

As I have seen, we find brachycephals mostly in the New mountains, and rarely in Old mountains.

Joro
18-01-10, 12:11
Well i believe there are much natives from Zagreb area in that study,it's like 50% Zagreb:50% whole Croatia,as it is probably the 'ethnic' situation in Zagreb itself.
Zagreb obviously had a very strong Slavic(Croatian) settlement as it has preserved the original Slavic dolicephalic/nordic continuity.

Sprinkles
18-01-10, 16:48
There's nothing to support your hypothesis. My claim was that mountainous regions were protection for neanderthals since they evolved in a colder climate and seasonal one for hundred of thousands of years prior to cro-magnum. The cold climate, which it itself is highly adaptive to, would be exaggerated in mountainous terrain.

The proposal for that study of Zagreb is simple. Even if their Y-DNA is of 30-40% I2a2, and Hercegovina is 70% - the difference between 30% and 70% is significant and justifies a lot of gene flow into the various populations. This gene flow would have taken place northeast and east of Zagreb where passage is easy for hundreds of miles. The gene flow would most definitely dilute a neanderthal autosomal DNA since there is clear passage to the area from many paths in Europe. Zagreb is also a capital, and capitals are the most diluted genomes of a nation - since, of course, they are bedrocks of migration, capital, and immigration of other people. Mountainous regions are not prone to the same types of gene flow and act as homogeneous populations.

Neander
19-01-10, 17:37
Also we find brachycephaly among Lapps, Koreans, and Amerindians. They are of another branch, I think they inherited brachycephaly from another race and Dinaric-Alpine-Borreby inherited it from another race.

Neander
19-01-10, 17:54
Well, did you read that article of Coon, or you did read only what I cited?
http://www.friendsofsabbath.org/Further_Research/e-books/Races%20of%20Europe%20-%20C%20Coon/chapter-XII13.htm


The mean cephalic index of the Ghegs is 85, as with most Dinarics. Geographically, however, the highest indices are found in the west, in Malsia Jakovës, Zadrima, and Mati, the three tribes situated on the coastal side of the mountain chain; here the means lie between 86.5 and 87.

These are North Albanian regions where E-V13 is most spread.

And the tittle is "Albania and Dinaric race"

In another sample we have a argument that Malësia e Mbishkodrës in Northwest Albania is "most dinaricized" country in Europe.

http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/p-39.htm

An exaggeratedly tall, lean, and long-faced Dinaric from Klementi, the northernmost bairak of the tribe of Malsia ë Madhë. Northern Albania is probably the most highly Dinaricized country in Europe.

In another side, we know that Albanians are true descendants of Illyrians, and croatians are slavic people.

Even if croatians assimilated some illyrians, again you must understand that croatians are more slavis then Albanians, therefore more I2a2 or R1a, and Albanians are more illyrians than croatians therefore more E-v13 and J2b.

Joro
19-01-10, 22:49
R1a is Slavic,not I2a2.

Joro
19-01-10, 22:57
P.S. Neander I see on Coon's cephalic map the cephalic index going over 88 somewhere in southern Albania,do we have anything written about this?
and are there any modern studies about CI in Albania?it would be interesting.

Neander
19-01-10, 23:28
The only adequate anthropometric data extant which deals with the Toscs is a series from southwestern Albania, from the town of Gjinokastër and its neighborhood.
Their cephalic index mean, 90.8, is by far the highest recorded in Europe.http://www.friendsofsabbath.org/Further_Research/e-books/Races%20of%20Europe%20-%20C%20Coon/chapter-XII13.htm

Neander
19-01-10, 23:29
R1a is Slavic,not I2a2.Definitely it is not illyrian.

Joro
19-01-10, 23:56
I agree I2a2 is not Illyrian,it is native west Balkan,possibly Vlach,because secondary maximum is in Romanian Moldova(+40%).
However,i think what Sprinkles tries to say it may be Illyrian in sense Illyrians assimilated the I2a2 people(like today's Slavs did).

I found some study on the net which shows Kosovars have cephalic index of 83,5.

Neander
20-01-10, 00:46
I found some study on the net which shows Kosovars have cephalic index of 83,5.I don't believe, because North Albanians and Kosovo Albanians have the same ancestry, even before few generations.

Myself , I have some above 90.

And I don't know what do you mean "Illyrians assimilated natives I2a2"

Dear collegue, Illyrians invaded several times the Italy, and we cannot find I2a2 in Italy, maybe except any rare case.

Judged by distribution, I2a2 came in the Balkan during Dark Ages.

If this is native to Balkan, as you pretend from Mesolthic it must have been spread all around Europe, as did other haplogroups of Balkan.

I don't know, if this is Vlach from Moldavia, or Slavs, or Sarmatians, who knows?

But it came during dark ages, 500-700 AD

Joro
20-01-10, 01:10
I don't believe, because North Albanians and Kosovo Albanians have the same ancestry, even before few generations.

Myself , I have some above 90.

And I don't know what do you mean "Illyrians assimilated natives I2a2"

Dear collegue, Illyrians invaded several times the Italy, and we cannot find I2a2 in Italy, maybe except any rare case.

Judged by distribution, I2a2 came in the Balkan during Dark Ages.

If this is native to Balkan, as you pretend from Mesolthic it must have been spread all around Europe, as did other haplogroups of Balkan.

I don't know, if this is Vlach from Moldavia, or Slavs, or Sarmatians, who knows?

But it came during dark ages, 500-700 AD

It is certainly nor Illyrian nor Slavic per se.
It may have come with the Vlachs from Romania to NW Balkans,or the other way round....
In northern Italy you have 10% I2a,just like in western Croatia.

Joro
20-01-10, 01:21
Concerning I2a2 and it's spread...well,the characteristic of north-west Balkans is that the I2a2 is dominant,and you have significantly lower neolithic lineages,giving out the strong possibility I2a2 survived those invaders.
Among Bosnian Croats you have 73% I2a2 and hardly over 10% Neolithic linages,while in other Balkan countries you have 35-40% neolithic on average.
Obviously when those neolithic mediterranean lineages came,they avoided west balkan mountainous area,as it was too far and mountain isolated from Danube neolithic path.
Concerning Illyrians-I didn't say Illyrians brought I2a2 anywhere,but that there is a possibility they assimilated some I2a2 people,in Herzegovina and Montenegro notably.

Sprinkles
20-01-10, 01:38
I don't believe, because North Albanians and Kosovo
Judged by distribution, I2a2 came in the Balkan during Dark Ages.
If this is native to Balkan, as you pretend from Mesolthic it must have been spread all around Europe, as did other haplogroups of Balkan.
I don't know, if this is Vlach from Moldavia, or Slavs, or Sarmatians, who knows?
But it came during dark ages, 500-700 AD
Are you really going to claim this again?

There is evidence that Haplogroup I originated in the Dinaric Alps and spread throughout Europe henceforth. It is from a link you provided that attempted to prove the opposite, and, on the contrary, proved what you intended to disprove.

Either post evidence of your aforementioned hypothesis - or stop repeating a lie.

This is a link you posted:
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:UQyPjaewt5gJ:www.unipv.eu/on-line/Home/AreaStampa/documento2986.html+Y-chromosomal+evidence+of+the+cultural+diffusion+of+ agriculture+in+southeast+Europe&hl=en&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgiL3uyhWM08BGKKMHmbk-uKfOqSATrJt9IZJ-3ZLI69TAyX7wrYNkKHLXApuhuoTg814MTn4wZn-xA0hV7MRluvXY5CAW68d-jpr1bZ-gH6qhOJSpdn3j06R1QZeRATgR1SC0s&sig=AHIEtbRiRVlhCxwqwaVWLF2L1YU7G0uW2Q

This is what the discussion states:


Various episodes of population movement have affected southeast Europe, and the role of the Balkans as a longstanding gateway to Europe from the Near East is illustrated by the phylogenetic unification of Hgs I and J by the basal M429 mutation.31 This evidence of common ancestry suggests that ancestral IJ-M429* Y chromosomes probably entered Europe through the Balkan route sometime before the Last Glacial Maximum. They subsequently evolved into Hg J in the Middle East and Hg I in Europe in a typical disjunctive phylogeographic pattern. Such a geographic corridor is likely to have experienced additional subsequent gene flows, including the migration of agricultural colonists from the Middle East. Pottery is a useful proxy for the spread of farming both spatially and temporally. The first appearance of pottery in the Adriatic region was in Corfu at 6500 BC and reached the northern most Adriatic B1000 years later.21 Its dispersal provides a comparative template for spatial and temporal patterns of Y chromosome Hg diversity observed in this area.


Claiming that the origin of Haplogroup I in the Balkans came from middle age migration is probably the stupidest thing one could keep repeating. It shows a total lack of understand that permeates any reasonable level of discourse on genetics. Do you really believe this yourself?


Are you going to keep repeating this stupidity?

Sprinkles
20-01-10, 01:43
I agree I2a2 is not Illyrian,it is native west Balkan,possibly Vlach,because secondary maximum is in Romanian Moldova(+40%).
However,i think what Sprinkles tries to say it may be Illyrian in sense Illyrians assimilated the I2a2 people(like today's Slavs did).

I found some study on the net which shows Kosovars have cephalic index of 83,5.
I2a2 is most definitely Illyrian.

Illyrians were probably a mixture of I2a2 (mostly) and E1b1b. The Greeks were in contact with a mixture of 50% E1b1b and 50% I2a2 Illyria's. All the Illyrias from Hercegovina, and north, were I2a2. The cultural capital of Illyria was in Stolac, Hercegovina. This was, with all due probability, a haplogroup I2a2 tribe.

Joro
20-01-10, 02:12
Here we have a furious argue were Illyrians I2a2 or E1b1b,
and I say Illyrians were R1b :D

Joro
20-01-10, 02:17
I don't believe, because North Albanians and Kosovo Albanians have the same ancestry, even before few generations.

Myself , I have some above 90.


That's what researches say.
I was also shocked to found out that Zagreb(1/4 of Croatian population) is mostly dolicephalic.

Sprinkles
20-01-10, 04:20
http://www.friendsofsabbath.org/Further_Research/e-books/Races%20of%20Europe%20-%20C%20Coon/chapter-XII12.htm

Bosnia consists of the six provinces, Bihac, Banjaluka, Tuzla, Travnik, Sarajevo, and Mostar, which lie between western Croatia, Dalmatia, Montenegro, and the Slavonian plain. The southernmost province, Mostar, includes, the territory known as Herzegovina, which lies nearest to Montenegro. The Bosnians serve racially as an approach to the nucleus of Dinaric giantism in Montenegro.122 Tuzla, in the northeast, has a mean stature of 171 cm.; Bihac and Banjaluca, in the northwest, of 172 cm.; in Travnik and parts of Mostar it rises to 173 cm., in Sarajevo to 174 cm., and in Herzegovina to 175-176 cm., approaching the Montenegrin level. The mean cephalic index of the Bosnians is over 85; this varies by religions, with the Catholics the most brachycephalic (86), and the Moslems the least (84). The Catholics are likewise the tallest and the lightest skinned; being the oldest population in the region in point of conversion, and the least affected by outside influences, the Catholic element preserves both a pre-Slavic123 and a pre-Turkish racial configuration more completely than do the partisans of Orthodoxy or Islam.

This leads to a few conclusions. Since, Coon, suggests that Catholics of Hercegovina (Hrvati) are the tallest and most brachycephalic, and that we are also the highest percentage of Haplogroup I2a2 in Europe - it infers that there is causality between haplogroup i2a2, height, skull size, and cephalic index. So, now, we can assume that I2a2 is correlated with these three attributes.

What we can't assume is whether the populations in Albania are Haplogroup I2a2 or Haplogroup E1b1b. I would assume they are I2a2, since, consequentially, there are populations of Albanians that are not Brachycephalic and show lower mean cephalic index's than those of Hercegovina's I2a2 populations. And the fact that those populations reside within heavily E1b1b populations would not prove anything, since, of course, there would be a high selectivity of breeding and sub-populations would form to distance themselves from the non I2a2 populations. The haplogroup frequency of Albania with respect to I2a2 and E1b1b is almost equivelent.

So, the matter now rests on whether we can prove whether or not E1b1b and I2a2 are correlated with cephalic index and height. We already proved that I2a2 are associated with cephalic index, height, and cranial size. We have yet to prove that E1b1b is associated with any of these physiological markers.

If you have evidence, please expand upon your assertions.

Prengu
20-01-10, 15:12
I2a2 is most definitely Illyrian.

Illyrians were probably a mixture of I2a2 (mostly) and E1b1b. The Greeks were in contact with a mixture of 50% E1b1b and 50% I2a2 Illyria's. All the Illyrias from Hercegovina, and north, were I2a2. The cultural capital of Illyria was in Stolac, Hercegovina. This was, with all due probability, a haplogroup I2a2 tribe.

I2a2 i would say Dacian while E-V13 is Illyrian, both subclades in ancient time lived side by side and after slavic invasion I2a2 (VI-VII century) moved to West Balcan while E-V13 had divided into two after arrival of I2a2 (Venecia border with Slovenia has 30-35% E-V13, and others have come down below the mountains).

Joro
20-01-10, 16:36
I2a2 i would say Dacian while E-V13 is Illyrian, both subclades in ancient time lived side by side and after slavic invasion I2a2 (VI-VII century) moved to West Balcan while E-V13 had divided into two after arrival of I2a2 (Venecia border with Slovenia has 30-35% E-V13, and others have come down below the mountains).

e1b is neolithic also

Sprinkles
20-01-10, 18:45
I2a2 i would say Dacian while E-V13 is Illyrian, both subclades in ancient time lived side by side and after slavic invasion I2a2 (VI-VII century) moved to West Balcan while E-V13 had divided into two after arrival of I2a2 (Venecia border with Slovenia has 30-35% E-V13, and others have come down below the mountains).
This is wrong.

Haplogroup IJ-M429 migrated to Europe 20,000 years ago through the Balkans.



This evidence of common ancestry suggests that ancestral IJ-M429* Y chromosomes probably entered Europe through the Balkan route sometime before the Last Glacial Maximum. They subsequently evolved into Hg J in the Middle East and Hg I in Europe in a typical disjunctive phylogeographic pattern.

Neander
20-01-10, 19:42
Sprinkles, you must divide subclades and talk for eachother independently.

Where is IJ in the Balkan? Nowhere! Only subclade in the Balkan is I2a2, other may be in rare cases.

So it is newcomer. And why dalmatians are more brachy and taller, beacsue they were somewhere in Romania, Moldavia or Ukraine, where must have been dinaric, and we still today find dinaric there.

Sprinkles
21-01-10, 01:22
Sprinkles, you must divide subclades and talk for eachother independently.

Where is IJ in the Balkan? Nowhere! Only subclade in the Balkan is I2a2, other may be in rare cases.

So it is newcomer. And why dalmatians are more brachy and taller, beacsue they were somewhere in Romania, Moldavia or Ukraine, where must have been dinaric, and we still today find dinaric there.
IJ migrated to the Balkans 20,000 years ago(last glacial maximum) prior to its split into I. I don't know what more I can say, and how much more information you can fabricate. Unless you read what you, yourself, have posted - which disputes everything you say - you'll fabricate until you either understand or until your motive to fabricate ceases to exist. I believe that neither will occur.

IJ was in the Balkans 20,000 years ago. I originated in the Dinaric Alps, and henceforth spread through Europe.

Joro
21-01-10, 02:29
Croatia also has solid amount of I1 according to last research(9%).
Studies for islands Krk and Brač show they possibly have 17-18% I1.
Maybe this could support IJ theory?

Prengu
21-01-10, 17:11
e1b is neolithic also

In last study found that is Mesolithic.


This is wrong.

Haplogroup IJ-M429 migrated to Europe 20,000 years ago through the Balkans.

I2a2-P37 (which mostly are south slavs) according TMCRA is 3000 years old while EV-13 is 13000-15000 years

and Re-read my post, i didnt say that I2a2 came from "outside of Europe" but from Central Europe (also North Balcan) they have been invaded from R1a element there.

Sprinkles
21-01-10, 17:40
In last study found that is Mesolithic.



I2a2-P37 (which mostly are south slavs) according TMCRA is 3000 years old while EV-13 is 13000-15000 years

and Re-read my post, i didnt say that I2a2 came from "outside of Europe" but from Central Europe (also North Balcan) they have been invaded from R1a element there.
Not sure what you're trying to prove by claiming I2a2-P37.2 is 3000 years old and EV-13 is 13000 years old. What is the significance of the claim relating to the origin of haplogroup I being in the Balkans. You do understand that the Y chromosome mutates, don't you?



The subclade divergence for P37.2 occurred 10.7±4.8 kya (Rootsi 2004). The age of YSTR variation for the P37.2 subclade is 8.0±4.0 kya (Rootsi 2004). The age of YSTR variation for the M423 subclade is 8.8±3.6 kya (Underhill 2007). Pericic places its expansion to have occurred "not earlier than the YD to Holocene transition and not later than the early Neolithic” (Pericic 2005).

Here we see that the divergence is 10,700 years ago and that the subclade is 8,000 years old. Another error, that you made claim to, without showing any proof of.

I don't see the reason within your claim. Are you claiming because I2a2 is 8,000 years old that Haplogroup IJ did not enter Europe through the Balkans?

And are you further claiming that 8,000 years ago the migration of haplogroup I was from central europe to the balkans, where we found IJ much before we found IJ in central europe? So, I evolved in central europe (where the frequency does not show anything near the level of Hercegovina) and somehow, even though the IJ was in the Balkans prior to it being in Central Europe, and the fact that the frequency is much higher in Hercegovina and shows a pattern of distribution that would indicate that the origin of I is from Hercegovina - that the origin of I is from central Europe?

What are you talking about? Please refine your argument so I can reply most appropriately.

Neander
21-01-10, 21:03
Not sure what you're trying to prove by claiming I2a2-P37.2 is 3000 years old and EV-13 is 13000 years old. Older subclades are in Scandinavia, the younger more in the south.

I1 has its epicenter in Scandinavia. Younger subclade I2 is found out of Scandinavia, in continetal Europe.

I2a has its center in Germany.

I2a2 is a subclade of this "Germany subclade".

We se clearly that haplogroup I invaded gradually from North to south.

As for, subclades which are found in Sardinia and West Europe it must be invasion of Bell Beaker, because it is found onlly there, but Bell Beakers did'nt came to Dalmatia, never.

Neander
21-01-10, 21:08
It is not unbelieveable that one population can drive away another.

Ethnic cleansing is something that can happen. We have an example of South Serbia which was populated by albanians until 1878, and in that year Serbs made ethnic cleansing, and today you cennot find any albanian there, except some boundary places with Kosovo.

The same happens to our ancestors from Jutbina and Klladusha. I myself belong to those clans who fought for a long time against croatians, and then lost war and came to live with their brothers in today Albania.

We have traditions which tell these histories.

Prengu
21-01-10, 22:39
Not sure what you're trying to prove by claiming I2a2-P37.2 is 3000 years old and EV-13 is 13000 years old. What is the significance of the claim relating to the origin of haplogroup I being in the Balkans. You do understand that the Y chromosome mutates, don't you?




Here we see that the divergence is 10,700 years ago and that the subclade is 8,000 years old. Another error, that you made claim to, without showing any proof of.

I don't see the reason within your claim. Are you claiming because I2a2 is 8,000 years old that Haplogroup IJ did not enter Europe through the Balkans?

And are you further claiming that 8,000 years ago the migration of haplogroup I was from central europe to the balkans, where we found IJ much before we found IJ in central europe? So, I evolved in central europe (where the frequency does not show anything near the level of Hercegovina) and somehow, even though the IJ was in the Balkans prior to it being in Central Europe, and the fact that the frequency is much higher in Hercegovina and shows a pattern of distribution that would indicate that the origin of I is from Hercegovina - that the origin of I is from central Europe?

What are you talking about? Please refine your argument so I can reply most appropriately.

You are using old articles (from wikipedia 2004), like i said accroing TMRCA this subclades created 3000 years ago (so Disputed from I2a2) in Central Europe....you can find alot articles in others forum...(dna-forum ect)




What are you talking about? Please refine your argument so I can reply most appropriately.

No i just said above, that I2a2-P37 (mostly) camed in balcan during VII Century from North Balcan/Central Europe which before that some latinized and slavnized....do you understand point?

Prengu
21-01-10, 23:04
I2a2 is most definitely Illyrian.

Illyrians were probably a mixture of I2a2 (mostly) and E1b1b. The Greeks were in contact with a mixture of 50% E1b1b and 50% I2a2 Illyria's. All the Illyrias from Hercegovina, and north, were I2a2. The cultural capital of Illyria was in Stolac, Hercegovina. This was, with all due probability, a haplogroup I2a2 tribe.

Illyrians (also thracians) were mostly E-V13 along J2e-M102 also R1b....so those subclades were present before existed "ethnom" illyrian, greek or whatever in Balcan.

Ancient greeks were mostly J2b-M12 (which has found high in South Italy, East Bulgaria and West Turkey) also R1b was present too.

Sprinkles
21-01-10, 23:31
Older subclades are in Scandinavia, the younger more in the south.
I1 has its epicenter in Scandinavia. Younger subclade I2 is found out of Scandinavia, in continetal Europe.
I2a has its center in Germany.
I2a2 is a subclade of this "Germany subclade".
We se clearly that haplogroup I invaded gradually from North to south.
As for, subclades which are found in Sardinia and West Europe it must be invasion of Bell Beaker, because it is found onlly there, but Bell Beakers did'nt came to Dalmatia, never.
It doesn't matter what is older and what is younger. Younger only means the haplogroup mutated and evolved. If you want to reference where the origin of the haplogroup was you need evidence to suggest a break from IJ. Now you assume the break from IJ had occurred in Scandinavia, which with evidence we have, that IJ migrated to Europe through Balkans in the last glacial maximum, we assume that IJ then transcended Europe into Scandinavia and assumed I there - and thus spread to Europe.

This argument is not compelling, and has no evidence to presume it. If it is known that IJ transcended Europe through the Balkans and haplogroup I is found at the highest concentration in Europe in Hercegovina, then it is intuitive that I originated in Hercegovina and spread from there. Even if you do not assume this, you assume that IJ transversed from Hercegovina to Scandanavia and two separate clusters of I formed, both descended from IJ. This doesn't make much sense either.

If the evidence suggests that IJ transversed from Asia minor to Europe through the Balkans, and the Balkans have the highest percent of I in Europe, it is intuitive to assume that I evolved in Hercegovina and facilitated gene flow to other parts of Europe.

What we also can deduce from this is that the Y chromosome mutates over time, and the age of the current haplogroup has no intrinsic meaning on the time the two haplogroups diverged from each other.

Per: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml

Sprinkles
21-01-10, 23:33
You are using old articles (from wikipedia 2004), like i said accroing TMRCA this subclades created 3000 years ago (so Disputed from I2a2) in Central Europe....you can find alot articles in others forum...(dna-forum ect)




No i just said above, that I2a2-P37 (mostly) camed in balcan during VII Century from North Balcan/Central Europe which before that some latinized and slavnized....do you understand point?
This proves you have no idea how gene flow and mutation work to produce haplogroups and frequency of genomes / mutation frequency of those haplogroups and distribution of those mutations. It shows complete stupidity to the aforementioned topic and the persistent insistence on this only repeats your own idiocy.

Sprinkles
21-01-10, 23:37
Illyrians (also thracians) were mostly E-V13 along J2e-M102 also R1b....so those subclades were present before existed "ethnom" illyrian, greek or whatever in Balcan.

Ancient greeks were mostly J2b-M12 (which has found high in South Italy, East Bulgaria and West Turkey) also R1b was present too.
There's no evidence of this. The evidence seems to insist that Illyrians were mostly I2a2 (80%) probably, and 20% E1b1b.

There's little to no E1b1b found in Hercegovina, the capital of Illyria - and, as well, in the northwestern dominions of Illyria.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Illyrians.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/HaplogroupI2.png

Sprinkles
21-01-10, 23:38
It is not unbelieveable that one population can drive away another.

Ethnic cleansing is something that can happen. We have an example of South Serbia which was populated by albanians until 1878, and in that year Serbs made ethnic cleansing, and today you cennot find any albanian there, except some boundary places with Kosovo.

The same happens to our ancestors from Jutbina and Klladusha. I myself belong to those clans who fought for a long time against croatians, and then lost war and came to live with their brothers in today Albania.

We have traditions which tell these histories.

You apparently have an elementary knowledge evolutionary genetics.

Prengu
21-01-10, 23:51
This proves you have no idea how gene flow and mutation work to produce haplogroups and frequency of genomes / mutation frequency of those haplogroups and distribution of those mutations. It shows complete stupidity to the aforementioned topic and the persistent insistence on this only repeats your own idiocy.

Calm down dude :laughing:, you have not idea about Anthro-genetic even you using hapgorup "IJ" when there dont exit such haplogroups...There exit I and J but both haplogroups entered in Europe from each others very late different times...read about J haplogroup

Prengu
22-01-10, 00:08
There's no evidence of this. The evidence seems to insist that Illyrians were mostly I2a2 (80%) probably, and 20% E1b1b.

There's little to no E1b1b found in Hercegovina, the capital of Illyria - and, as well, in the northwestern dominions of Illyria.



1) Capital of Illyria?...did you read my posts that i writted?...Hercegovina was base of new settles during VII Century...and V-13 owner pushed down to Montains to triangle mountains (Montengro-Albania-Kosovo) and splitted V-13 in two district (notice in North Italy V-13 is present around 25-30%).

2) Most oldest TRMCA of V-13 has found in South Italy (Brindisi town...where lived 3 illyrian tribes) and North Italy...

3) If I2a2-P37 suppose to be illyrian, why this haplogroup is not present among other south europeans when illyrians were neighbors with them? (Italians, Spanish, Basques)?

4) Also R1b is not present among Croatians+Bosnaks (just 1-3%).....while llyrians has surrounded by R1b haplogroup?

5) Read Semir Osmanagic (bosnak arkiologist, who claim Illyrian pyramid in Bosna), which is V-13 owner and in his book claim that E-V13 is illyrian because has found in some illyrian bones in Bosna.

LeBrok
22-01-10, 01:03
R1a is Slavic,not I2a2.

R1a is proto Slavic and proto Baltic. For at least 2000 years Slavs in central and east Europe are a mixture of R1a, I2, and some R1b. Now ratio varies on geographical location. With Slavic expansion of around 7 hundreds AD into Balkans, there was some I2 movement too. Now we don't know how much I2 migrated there with R1a but some for sure, even if it was only a back migration.

Sprinkles
22-01-10, 01:39
Calm down dude :laughing:, you have not idea about Anthro-genetic even you using hapgorup "IJ" when there dont exit such haplogroups...There exit I and J but both haplogroups entered in Europe from each others very late different times...read about J haplogroup

Various episodes of population movement have affected southeast Europe, and the role of the Balkans as a longstanding gateway to Europe from the Near East is illustrated by the phylogenetic unification of Hgs I and J by the basal M429 mutation.31 This evidence of common ancestry suggests that ancestral IJ-M429* Y chromosomes probably entered Europe through the Balkan route sometime before the Last Glacial Maximum. They subsequently evolved into Hg J in the Middle East and Hg I in Europe in a typical disjunctive phylogeographic pattern. Such a geographic corridor is likely to have experienced additional subsequent gene flows, including the migration of agricultural colonists from the Middle East. Pottery is a useful proxy for the spread of farming both spatially and temporally. The first appearance of pottery in the Adriatic region was in Corfu at 6500 BC and reached the northern most Adriatic B1000 years later.21 Its dispersal provides a comparative template for spatial and temporal patterns of Y chromosome Hg diversity observed in this area.

Do you understand this?

If not, let me help you. Of course IJ doesn't exist, because it mutated into haplogroup's I and J. This supposes a theory that IJ migrated into the Balkans before the last glacial maximum (which is 20,000 years ago), and it mutated into haplogroup I. This is why we find haplogroup I in Europe. Haplogroup J mutated from haplogroup IJ in asia minor.

Is it difficult for you to understand this?

Sprinkles
22-01-10, 01:40
1) Capital of Illyria?...did you read my posts that i writted?...Hercegovina was base of new settles during VII Century...and V-13 owner pushed down to Montains to triangle mountains (Montengro-Albania-Kosovo) and splitted V-13 in two district (notice in North Italy V-13 is present around 25-30%).

2) Most oldest TRMCA of V-13 has found in South Italy (Brindisi town...where lived 3 illyrian tribes) and North Italy...

3) If I2a2-P37 suppose to be illyrian, why this haplogroup is not present among other south europeans when illyrians were neighbors with them? (Italians, Spanish, Basques)?

4) Also R1b is not present among Croatians+Bosnaks (just 1-3%).....while llyrians has surrounded by R1b haplogroup?

5) Read Semir Osmanagic (bosnak arkiologist, who claim Illyrian pyramid in Bosna), which is V-13 owner and in his book claim that E-V13 is illyrian because has found in some illyrian bones in Bosna.
This has no reasoning of genetic origin. It's basically pure fiction.

Joro
22-01-10, 06:22
R1a is proto Slavic and proto Baltic. For at least 2000 years Slavs in central and east Europe are a mixture of R1a, I2, and some R1b. Now ratio varies on geographical location. With Slavic expansion of around 7 hundreds AD into Balkans, there was some I2 movement too. Now we don't know how much I2 migrated there with R1a but some for sure, even if it was only a back migration.
They've brought R1a,and maybe some other haplogroups,among others R1b,I2a,neolithic groups,but that was insignificant.

Joro
22-01-10, 06:54
4) Also R1b is not present among Croatians+Bosnaks (just 1-3%).....while llyrians has surrounded by R1b haplogroup?

R1b in Croatia overall is 12-13%.
In north you have about 20%,in south it is merely 5-6%.
But in southernmost Dubrovnik area,pretty close to Albania, it rises again above 15%.

Sprinkles
28-01-10, 18:16
R1b in Croatia overall is 12-13%.
In north you have about 20%,in south it is merely 5-6%.
But in southernmost Dubrovnik area,pretty close to Albania, it rises again above 15%.

R1a seems correlated with dolichocephaly, so we could infer that Zagreb with it's 20% R1a Y-haplogroup to have more autosomal DNA that confers a dolichocephalic phenotype.

Neander
28-01-10, 18:31
I see that only "arguments" which you use are insults toward us.

Insult is not argument.

Tha reality is that I2a2 had its center in dacia, but as we know a lot of Vlachs came to Balkan together with slavs.

As Preng said, I2a2 divided E-V13 in two regions, one in south (Montenegro, Sandzak, Kosovo, Albania, Greece), and the second in the North (Slovenia, Venecia etc). I2a2 is established in between.

Sprinkles
28-01-10, 19:37
I see that only "arguments" which you use are insults toward us.

Insult is not argument.

Tha reality is that I2a2 had its center in dacia, but as we know a lot of Vlachs came to Balkan together with slavs.

As Preng said, I2a2 divided E-V13 in two regions, one in south (Montenegro, Sandzak, Kosovo, Albania, Greece), and the second in the North (Slovenia, Venecia etc). I2a2 is established in between.
So, now, besides arguing the point at hand - which I have sufficiently justified, and which, you, have failed to provide any evidence of your hypothesis - you are resorting to a plea of pity for the stupidity you have exhibited in this thread, and, also, in countless others. What you synthesize is fabrication - it has not one basis in reason, understanding of genetics, or any other means by which one is required to establish a debate based on logic. Do you want me to pity you? It's ideal that you pity yourself for the reasoning you have exhibited in this debate, but, alas, I find no such appeal convincing and will not attempt to satisfy your psychic necessities.

You have failed to show any evidence of your hypothesis.

There's evidence that IJ migrated through the Balkans prior to the Last Maximal Glacial.

The frequency of mutations plotted with respect to the most common form of Haplogroup I2a2 shows a clear origin in Hercegovina.

Haplogroup I2a2 is 6,000 years old. 6,000 years ago, Haplogroup I2a2 was in Hercegovina.

I2 and I1 lineages arose from I.

The distribution of Ix shows a clear route north into Scandinavia, and east to Russia.

I existed in the Balkans and evolved into I2a2 - I traveled north and mutated into I1.

Now, please tell me, what are you having trouble understanding?

Joro
28-01-10, 22:03
and how did then this 9% of I1 come to Croatia?
In Slovenia I1 is 7%,in Hungary,Bosnia and Albania 4%,Serbia 2%,so all neighbours have less than us,there must be an explanation

Neander
29-01-10, 01:52
Now, please tell me, what are you having trouble understanding?
No,no,no, I understand very well, what you say. But it is a fabrication.
IJ may have migrate through the East Europe, specially if they are cromagnons who are believed to have defeated Neandertals. So they did't migrate through Balkan, but through Ukraine.
Even if they migrate through Balkan, that doesnt mean that I2a2 was created here.

The frequency of mutations plotted with respect to the most common form of Haplogroup I2a2 shows a clear origin in Hercegovina.
The frequency of mutations is the beiggest in Ukraine-Moldavia. In another thread, I sent you a book, which is the last study, on which is based and Prengu when said that it came from Ukraine, or Rumania.

Haplogroup I2a2 is 6,000 years old. 6,000 years ago, Haplogroup I2a2 was in Hercegovina.
I2a2 after the last study is only 3.000 years old, so it mast have been created somewhere exist the haplogroup I, and not in the Balkan were I is comprised exclusively of I2a2 and it is an OASE among J2 and E-V13. "A black sheep among whites".
That means somewhere in the 1.000 BC was bornt the first man with I2a2 Y chromosome, and it was somewhere in Moldavia.

The distribution of Ix shows a clear route north into Scandinavia, and east to Russia.
I distribution show clear rout to south. REMEMBER before the Indo-European invasion, in Scandinavia I haplogroup was 100%, and not like is today.
Also you have I2a in Russia, which mutated to I2a2, and then during Slavic invasion, I2a2 came in the Balkan together with Slavs.

Neander
29-01-10, 01:56
and how did then this 9% of I1 come to Croatia?
In Slovenia I1 is 7%,in Hungary,Bosnia and Albania 4%,Serbia 2%,so all neighbours have less than us,there must be an explanationYou cannot be sure about percentages.

Th only fact here is that, this haplogroup is low among all Balkans.

But if you test 100 to 300 people among 4 millions, it is very ridicuolous to pretend that you know exactly what is the percentage of Haplogroups.

You have many examples, where in one study the x Haplogroup was in low percentage and in another study the same was in high percentage.

I1, must have came from Goths and other germanic invaders.

Joro
29-01-10, 08:15
You cannot be sure about percentages.

Th only fact here is that, this haplogroup is low among all Balkans.

But if you test 100 to 300 people among 4 millions, it is very ridicuolous to pretend that you know exactly what is the percentage of Haplogroups.

You have many examples, where in one study the x Haplogroup was in low percentage and in another study the same was in high percentage.

I1, must have came from Goths and other germanic invaders.
well yeah,but this is what last study shows,and by last definition of I subclades.
so i guess Goths did influence Croatia then,this is nothing new because sources mention them as very strong element in Croatia,and probably montenegro and western part of bosnia as well.
and croatia is not wholly on balkans,so maybe why is there a bit higher ;)

Sprinkles
29-01-10, 19:37
No,no,no, I understand very well, what you say. But it is a fabrication.
IJ may have migrate through the East Europe, specially if they are cromagnons who are believed to have defeated Neandertals. So they did't migrate through Balkan, but through Ukraine.
Even if they migrate through Balkan, that doesnt mean that I2a2 was created here.
The frequency of mutations is the beiggest in Ukraine-Moldavia. In another thread, I sent you a book, which is the last study, on which is based and Prengu when said that it came from Ukraine, or Rumania.
I2a2 after the last study is only 3.000 years old, so it mast have been created somewhere exist the haplogroup I, and not in the Balkan were I is comprised exclusively of I2a2 and it is an OASE among J2 and E-V13. "A black sheep among whites".
That means somewhere in the 1.000 BC was bornt the first man with I2a2 Y chromosome, and it was somewhere in Moldavia.
I distribution show clear rout to south. REMEMBER before the Indo-European invasion, in Scandinavia I haplogroup was 100%, and not like is today.
Also you have I2a in Russia, which mutated to I2a2, and then during Slavic invasion, I2a2 came in the Balkan together with Slavs.


The study you claim uses 28 individuals from western europe (not specified from where) and 2 individuals from Moldovia (with haplogroup I-M423) to determine variance of the populaton. If you want to talk about testing 100-400 individuals, well, the study you quote is from 30 individuals to determine variance within a population. It is as if your present and past arguments refute each other, or you don't bother to read what you actually post pertaining to the subject we are discussing.


http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/22/10/1964#TBL1

The highest STR variance of I1b* (xM26) lineages (0.34 to 0.23) is in Bosnians, Czechs and Slovaks, Hungarians, Herzegovinians, and Serbians (fig. 3B and D). In both cases, when all studied SEE populations are considered together and upon exclusion of Kosovar Albanians and Macedonian Romani, I1b* (xM26) frequency and variance do not show significant correlations with geography (table 2). Moreover, I1b* (xM26) phylogenetic network (fig. 8A) shows high haplotype diversity and sharing of founder haplotype among investigated populations. In fact, homogenous distribution of elevated frequency accompanied with high diversity of I1b* (xM26) lineages among different SEE populations may be viewed as a genetic signature of their common paternal history over a long period of time. Rootsi et al. (2004) estimated that I1b* (xM26) diverged from I* at 10.7 ± 4.8 kilo years ago (KYA), possibly relating to the post–Younger Dryas (YD) climate amelioration in Europe, and that I1b* (xM26) expansion occurred around the early Holocene at 7.6 ± 2.7 KYA. Considering only our SEE sample, the coalescent estimate of I1b* (xM26) is substantially older (11.1 ± 4.8 KYA). This finding suggests that the I1b* (xM26) lineages might have expanded from SEE to central, eastern, and southern Europe, presumably not earlier than the YD to Holocene transition and not later than the early Neolithic.

Clearly, showing no variance in Moldovia (since your study used 2 subjects to verify it claims) and abundant variation in Central Europe, with the presumed origin in The Balkans.
http://i50.tinypic.com/svmfkm.jpg



Also, the hypothesis of the Illyrian E1b1b does not seem compelling based on variance and frequency of the haplogroup and the genetic flow of the haplogroup through geographic areas of the Balkans. With all due consideration, there is no evidence to support it.

A lower frequency of E3b1 significantly distinguishes populations of the Adriatic-Dinaric complex, i.e., mainland Croatians, Bosnians, and Herzegovinians (7.9%; 95% CI 0.054–0.114), from their neighboring populations of the Vardar-Morava-Danube river system, i.e., Serbians and Macedonians (21.9%; 95% CI 0.166–0.283). These observations hint a mosaic of different E3b1 dispersal modes over a short geographic distance and point to the Vardar-Morava-Danube river system as one of major routes for E3b1, in fact E3b1, expansion from south and southeastern to continental Europe. In fact, dispersals of farmers throughout the Vardar-Morava-Danube catchments basin are also evidenced in the archaeological record (Tringham 2000).

Neander
29-01-10, 21:55
The greater diversity of I2a2 is in Ukraine.

Look at the PAGE 6

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:UQyPjaewt5gJ:www.unipv.eu/on-line/Home/AreaStampa/documento2986.html+Y-chromosomal+evidence+of+the+cultural+diffusion+of+ agriculture+in+southeast+Europe&hl=en&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgiL3uyhWM08BGKKMHmbk-uKfOqSATrJt9IZJ-3ZLI69TAyX7wrYNkKHLXApuhuoTg814MTn4wZn-xA0hV7MRluvXY5CAW68d-jpr1bZ-gH6qhOJSpdn3j06R1QZeRATgR1SC0s&sig=AHIEtbRiRVlhCxwqwaVWLF2L1YU7G0uW2Q

Sprinkles
30-01-10, 01:26
The greater diversity of I2a2 is in Ukraine.

Look at the PAGE 6

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:UQyPjaewt5gJ:www.unipv.eu/on-line/Home/AreaStampa/documento2986.html+Y-chromosomal+evidence+of+the+cultural+diffusion+of+ agriculture+in+southeast+Europe&hl=en&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgiL3uyhWM08BGKKMHmbk-uKfOqSATrJt9IZJ-3ZLI69TAyX7wrYNkKHLXApuhuoTg814MTn4wZn-xA0hV7MRluvXY5CAW68d-jpr1bZ-gH6qhOJSpdn3j06R1QZeRATgR1SC0s&sig=AHIEtbRiRVlhCxwqwaVWLF2L1YU7G0uW2Q
The study is absurd and uses one focal point satellite for the whole of basically eastern Europe. The study I posted uses more satellites within the vicinity of Ukraine / Moldovia and uses a number of satellites within the vicinity of the Balkans.

The study also added in genomic research that is not scientific and is databased by genetic analysis that is monetarily funded. This is not a scientific article and uses means that are prone to erroneous conclusions.

I don't hold any credibility to consider any reliability for what you have shown. Further, there is information contradicting it, which does not use information that has qualitative bias. The study has bias, is poor and unreliable.

Joro
25-03-10, 16:35
Fellow Albanians, is there any cephalic index study for Modern Albanians?
i only found this for Kosovars which shows average CI for them is some 84.2 :
http://www.scielo.cl/pdf/ijmorphol/v26n4/art24.pdf

MOESAN
05-12-11, 13:58
the regions of maximum E-V13 in Albania are the most mesocehpalic compared to others - the N-E Ghegs was IC 83 when the S Tosques was IC 87 to 89 - and the maximum is in Kosovo (IC? I have not it but I believe it was 83 or somtehing very close - an do not forget 'alpine' types seam to be frequent in Tosques (more than 'dinaric') - in W Europe, the more 'alpine' looking people are in zones of strong Y R1b presence (U152 P310 evolved in highlands Alps) -
trying to attach bracycephaly to Y DNA is tempting (I do so) but the mothers had their word to say in case of drift for Y DNA)

Templar
16-12-11, 18:00
Stolac, Hercegovina

Hehe my family bloodline is from there. The inhabitants of Stolac are the most Cro-Magnon people in the world. :D

Neander
24-12-13, 01:06
It is not native at all!

It is just slavic haplogroup (that means came with slavs).

Two centers of this haplogroups:
1. Croatia (croatians that means slavic peoples)
2. Moldavia (Romanized Slavs, which is obvious in their Neodanubian race)

Neander
24-12-13, 01:08
Carleton Coon never went to Kosovo.

But Albanians are not any specific nation. Albanians are the substrate of Balkans.

Dinaric race is substrate race of Balkans,

and EV13 with J2B is substrate haplogroups of Balkans

Croatians along with their R1a and I2a2 haplogroups came there durin 7th century

Fatherland
27-11-17, 22:25
Carleton Coon never went to Kosovo.

But Albanians are not any specific nation. Albanians are the substrate of Balkans.

Dinaric race is substrate race of Balkans,

and EV13 with J2B is substrate haplogroups of Balkans

Croatians along with their R1a and I2a2 haplogroups came there durin 7th century
I2a1b-Din*.

I2a2 is native to the Balkans and barely exists in South Slavs.

Fatherland
27-11-17, 22:28
Albanians are the most Brachycephalic ethnicity of Europe.

LeBrok
27-11-17, 23:34
Albanians are the most Brachycephalic ethnicity of Europe. You wouldn't brag about this, if you didn't think it is superior in some sense. Tell us what is this?

Fatherland
28-11-17, 00:16
You wouldn't brag about this, if you didn't think it is superior in some reanse. Tell us what is this?
I Am Merely Stating A Fact, Which Has Been Ignored By The Others In This Very Thread.

Fustan
28-11-17, 00:18
You wouldn't brag about this, if you didn't think it is superior in some reanse. Tell us what is this?

warrior trait

LeBrok
28-11-17, 00:42
warrior traitRace of warriors with smallest country in Europe?!

blevins13
28-11-17, 00:44
Pliny the Younger also mentions the Chaonians in a comment he makes in the context of an Aristophanes play; "This man must be certainly Chaonian because he looks like a mushroom due to his oversized cranium, which is certainly to his advantage because he does not thus need an umbrella to protect himself from glare of the sun"


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blevins13
28-11-17, 02:24
Pliny the Younger also mentions the Chaonians in a comment he makes in the context of an Aristophanes play; "This man must be certainly Chaonian because he looks like a mushroom due to his oversized cranium, which is certainly to his advantage because he does not thus need an umbrella to protect himself from glare of the sun"


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Chaonians we’re located in South Albania, in North Epirus. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonia


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blevins13
28-11-17, 02:26
Chaonians we’re located in South Albania, in North Epirus. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonia


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I believe R1b+ev13 combination.


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Fustan
28-11-17, 18:30
Race of warriors with smallest country in Europe?!

I don't think you know very much about the history of the balkans and ottoman empire my dude

blevins13
28-11-17, 21:28
I don't think you know very much about the history of the balkans and ottoman empire my dude

Not only Ottoman Empire, but also Venice, France, kingdom of Naples.


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Johane Derite
04-12-17, 03:53
I'm going to dump some stuff I have on brachycephaly:

https://i.imgur.com/yPcHeMR.jpg




https://i.imgur.com/XuD94Sd.png





This is from Dienekes, goes against the standard Nordicist propagated idea that Doliocephalic = Good:





https://i.imgur.com/DnfgHvA.png

https://i.imgur.com/Vi6Fcx4.png


Also I went through some of the Roman sculptures looking for reference on cephalic index (since Roman Realism is more reliable for grasping how they looked).

Here are some brachycephalics I found. Vespasian, looking like a short faced Brachycephalic (if not hyper brachycephalic), quite consistently across many sculptures:

https://i.imgur.com/2cOlWqf.jpg


Also both his sons Titus and Domitian are the same:

Titus
https://i.imgur.com/oAk9mXQ.jpg

Domitian
https://www.metmuseum.org/-/media/Images/Blogs/Now%20at%20The%20Met/2015/2015_05/Toledo%20Museum%20Loan%20Exchange/2.jpg




Here is Tiberius who has a longer face but is depicted with quite a brachycephalic wide head:

http://ocdn.eu/pulscms-transforms/1/YXpktkpTURBXy85NTk1YTA3MGM4MWY4YmQyZGE1M2Y5ODYxOTY wOGNhYS5qcGeSlQLNA8AAwsOVAgDNA8DCww




Here is his son Drusus Iulius who has a wide brachy head and high vault resulting in a flatter back like you see in Dinarics:

http://www.digitalsculpture.org/papers/pollini/pollini%20assets/Fig.%206a.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ef/ec/87/efec875d1aa8f9e8437f88ac9c80b459.jpg


Since north italy is surrounded by mountains its not surprising that there are brachycepahilcs that are represented in the roman empire.

If only the greeks had been into realism like the romans, would have been great to get a glimpse at what their leaders looked like.

Fustan
19-12-17, 22:47
Race of warriors with smallest country in Europe?!
Instead of banning me, check out the Stradioti, Souliots and Janissaries.

Johane Derite
08-04-18, 02:23
"The Evolution of Round Brains Ushered in the 'Human Revolution'"

https://fsmedia.imgix.net/98/54/37/b5/8728/462c/86ca/7d84f6c8f18b/on-the-left-the-globular-endocranial-shape-of-a-modern-human-brian-and-on-the-right-the-neandertha.jpeg?auto=format%2Ccompress&w=700

https://fsmedia.imgix.net/e8/7e/8b/8f/93a3/4800/ae0d/f9265af7b1ac/brain-shape-reconstruction-of-early-homo-sapiens-that-lived-300000-years-ago.jpeg?auto=format%2Ccompress&w=700
https://fsmedia.imgix.net/76/2e/f7/e3/29a9/49c0/ab70/6f0eac67c6c1/a-gif-showing-the-relationship-between-cranial-endocranial-and-brain-morphology.gif

"In a study (http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/1/eaao5961) published Wednesday in Science Advances, researchers from the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology announced that the earliest Homo sapiens did not have globular brains like we have today. Instead, their brains had a shape intermediate between that of Homo erectus (https://www.inverse.com/article/32650-jebel-irhoud-morocco-homo-sapiens-evolution-first-humans) and that of the Neanderthals (https://www.inverse.com/article/38035-neanderthal-demise-modern-human-replacement), both of which were somewhat more elongated horizontally. The brain, the authors write, gradually became globular over evolutionary time, and those changes in turn, induced neurological shifts that coincide with archaeological evidence of modern behavior."According to the new paper, the size of the early Homo sapiens brain entered the range of modern human brain size as early as 300,000 years ago, but its globular, round features emerged only 40,000 years ago. This unexpected revelation means that the brain reached its current shape much later than anticipated during evolution.
To come to this conclusion, the team used tomographic scans and 3-D analysis to create virtual endocranial casts of 20 different Homo sapiens fossils. These fossils were divided into three groups: the oldest came from North and East Africa and represented the earliest known representatives of humans after the population split with Neanderthals, others lived in East Africa and the Eastern Mediterranean regions between 130,000 to 100,000 groups, and the final group lived between 35,000 to 10,000 years ago.
They also created virtual endocasts — internal casts of the brain that approximate its size and morphology — of modern human samples to compare. Because brains are not preserved in the fossil record, the only direct evidence researchers have are from endocasts.

LINK: https://www.inverse.com/article/40511-brain-shape-homo-sapiens?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=on_site&utm_campaign=article-footer

MOESAN
08-04-18, 22:00
brzchycephaly

MOESAN
08-04-18, 22:01
brachycephaly and globularity seems

MOESAN
08-04-18, 22:07
brachycephaly and globularity seems associated but they are not identical - globularity, at first sight could favorize interconnectivity in brain but it is a picture, i don't know if it is reality - I suppose the frontal region development is of greater importance - that said, brachycephalic is only a two dimensions concept, and does not cover integraly globularity - Europeans became more and more brachycephalic since Antiquity and since hte 1900's the process reversed, so? Maybe we are becoming less intelligent? in fact opposite tendancies could be in play: social life and selection linked to it, but also mechanical constraints linked to overall stature - as often multifactors result

Mark
08-04-18, 22:21
Maybe we are becoming less intelligent?

This, basically.

64logh
03-12-18, 15:36
brachycephaly and globularity seems associated but they are not identical - globularity, at first sight could favorize interconnectivity in brain but it is a picture, i don't know if it is reality - I suppose the frontal region development is of greater importance - that said, brachycephalic is only a two dimensions concept, and does not cover integraly globularity - Europeans became more and more brachycephalic since Antiquity and since hte 1900's the process reversed, so? Maybe we are becoming less intelligent? in fact opposite tendancies could be in play: social life and selection linked to it, but also mechanical constraints linked to overall stature - as often multifactors result
The intelligence-brachycephaly correlation you are implying is interesting.

ToBeOrNotToBe
03-12-18, 18:10
Brachycephaly as a whole definitely does have a correlation with intelligence, it results in a larger proportion of the brain being part of the prefrontal cortex (but also a larger brain full-stop in most cases, as shortening and widening something that's long will always tend to increase its volume). I believe brain size has a definite correlation with IQ, which means brachycephaly does too.

That being said, it probably isn't all about brain size, as if that's the case Cro-Magnons would be geniuses (when they for the most part got swarmed by farmers and wiped out by pastoralists)

Saetrus
04-12-18, 22:32
https://i.imgur.com/0JQWDO5.jpg

One factor that contributed to brachycephalization is that the 150cc of brain matter lost since the neolithic revolution affected length more than breadth.

ToBeOrNotToBe
04-12-18, 22:57
https://i.imgur.com/0JQWDO5.jpg

One factor that contributed to brachycephalization is that the 150cc of brain matter lost since the neolithic revolution affected length more than breadth.

Firstly, this graph is terrible as it tries to portray humanity as homogenous, whereas you'd be stupid to think the brain size of Cro-Magnon has anything to do with modern-day Khoisan. But secondly, brachycephaly is not a Neolithic trait at all - Neolithic farmers were typically Mediterranean in phenotype (meaning long-headed and thin-faced). The loss in cranial volume since the Neolithic, then, would be primarily due to a reduction in facial width, which is what the archaeological record shows.

Short-headedness only popped up recently, it's a relatively modern phenotype on the whole. Mixtures of Borreby types and Mediterranean types have been theorised to create Alpine types through a process of reduction, and this Alpine type has in turn been theorised to be the main agent of brachycephaly in Western Eurasia (creating phenotypes such as the extremely modern Dinarid, which combines a general East Mediterranean facial form with an Alpine short-headedness and wide forehead - to emphasise how modern this phenotype is, it actually postdates the beginning of copper smelting, which in the grand scheme of things is basically within recent memory).

I would have thought, though, that the last 10,000 years would have been a period of great eugenics, which would perhaps mean these decreases in cranial volume have been accompanied by more efficient "wiring", so to speak.

MOESAN
08-12-18, 19:19
@ToBeOrNotToBe
Interesting but very complicated question of intelligence and cerebral volume.
But at first we have to look at the data:
the brachycephally among the 'alpine' pops and 'dinaric' pops (to take modern pops) is not the same: in the alpine types, there is small loss of length and a good chunk of gain in breadth; among dinaric types (not the 'borreby'like ones), we have the opposite: important loss in length, small gain in breadth, so that 'dinaric' type has a seemingly smaller braincase spite its high stature; and in fact the frontal zone is not broad at all, comparatively!
I agree with your last paragraph: there is size, and there is organisation.
&: today, skulls seem decreasing among "evolved occidental" countries spite the increase in stature, but perhaps they are a bit higher? This last aspect (height) seems factual in USA (I lack any serious recent study, a study I red compared recent USA generations to the 19/begin.20 century ones, not the very recent evolution, say since the last world war)

Neander
03-03-19, 13:03
I2a2 is not dacian, it is sarmatian, you can find it in Slavic population and in Kurdistan. These criminals with I2a2 ydna came in Illyria in 7 century and made genocide against illyrian population, we must be happy they didn't eredicate us all. We were lucky cause Slavs were divided in nations, religions etc. If they were together there would be no Albanian today.

Brachycephaly was created after mixing of neanderthals and sapiens, while browridge was removed, the rest of the head remains intact, so the length of head is shorter, there is brachycephaly.