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Maciamo
26-01-10, 12:53
I was looking at the mtDNA maps on 23andMe and noticed that Libya had a very different set of haplogroups from its neighbours. It is much more European. Libya is an African pocket of mtDNA I, K, T, U3, U4, U5 and X, all the haplogroups associated with the Caucasus and the Pontic steppes. The only typical Indo-European haplogroup missing is W (more common in the northern steppe and forest-steppe, where the Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian branches originated).

The Greeks are known to have established colonies in Libya (7th century BCE in Cyrenaica), but could they have had such an impact on the modern population ? The Phoenicians also settled in Libya, but they couldn't have brought I, U4 or U5.

There is not that much haplogroup H, so I am inclined to think of a direct IE invasion from the steppe/Caucasus region. Wikipedia mentions invading horsemen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Libya) during the Bronze Age. The ancient Libyans invaded Egypt during the 13th century BCE. A fresco of the tomb of Seti I, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Egyptian_races.jpg) (1279 BCE) depict by the Libyans as light-skinned (much lighter than the Egyptians). This is undeniable proof that Europeans had settled in Libya before 1300 BCE, so well before the Greeks.

The Y-DNA maps show a substantial amount of R1b1b2 and a little R1a. The analysis of haplogroup J (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181965/) shows some Greek J2a4a1 (M92) and J2b (M102) in Cyrenaica. But R1b1b2 is all over Libya and R1a closer to Tunisia, where the Greeks didn't establish colonies.

The only way the isolated and resource-poor Libyans could have successfully invade Egypt during the Bronze Age is if they had superior technology. The only people susceptible to provide that were the Indo-Europeans. The Libyans seem to have been associated to the mysterious Sea Peoples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples), who were also likely Indo-Europeans from the Black Sea shores. The Lybians ruled Egypt from 943 to 713 BCE (22nd Dynasty).

Wilhelm
26-01-10, 16:26
Ancient Lybians were Berbers, that's why they were White skinned

"The history of Libya includes the history of its rich mix of people added to the indigenous Berber tribes. "

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Berbero.jpg

Maciamo
26-01-10, 19:00
Ancient Lybians were Berbers, that's why they were White skinned

"The history of Libya includes the history of its rich mix of people added to the indigenous Berber tribes. "


Berbers have completely different DNA from other Libyans. Their Y-DNA is E-M81 and their mtDNA mostly H1, U6, M1 and L. Anyway the Berbers are almost as dark as the Egyptians (not like the image you posted).

Wilhelm
26-01-10, 19:15
Berbers have completely different DNA from other Libyans. Their Y-DNA is E-M81 and their mtDNA mostly H1, U6, M1 and L.
That's why I said Ancient Lybians were Berbers, because modern Lybian people today have mixed ancestry, but the indigenous lybians were Berber, and they were white skinned.


"Archaeological evidence indicates that from as early as 8,000 BC, the coastal plain of Ancient Libya was inhabited by a Neolithic people, the Berbers, who were skilled in the domestication of cattle and the cultivation of crops.[9]"

"Native Libyans are primarily of Berber and Arab heritage. Small Tuareg and Tebu tribal groups in southern Libya are nomadic or seminomadic. Among foreign residents, the largest groups are citizens of other African nations, including North Africans (primarily Egyptians), and Sub-Saharan Africans."

Later, the area known in modern times as Libya also was occupied by a series of other peoples, with the Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Greeks, Persian Empire, Romans, Vandals, Arabs, Turks and Byzantines ruling all or part of the area.

"The Phoenicians were the first to establish trading posts in Libya, when the merchants of Tyre (in present-day Lebanon) developed commercial relations with the Berber tribes and made treaties with them to ensure their cooperation in the exploitation of raw materials."

"Pockets of Berber population remain in modern Libya, but dispersal of Berbers north as far as Ireland and Scandinavia is documented in genetic markers studied by physical anthropologists and dispersal in Africa from the Atlantic coast to the Siwa oasis in Egypt, seems to have followed climatic changes causing increasing desertification."


Anyway the Berbers are almost as dark as the Egyptians (not like the image you posted).
No, the image I posted is of an ancient lybian, that is, a Berber. They are not dark skinned, for example Idir Hamid is an Algerian berber:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/Idir_Hamid_Cheriet.JPG/546px-Idir_Hamid_Cheriet.JPG

Cambrius (The Red)
26-01-10, 21:21
The M-81 Berbers were / are (what little is left of them) white. Their origin is Eurasian. Most "Berbers" today are mixed with Arab and Sub-Saharan peoples. Also, refer to the indigenous population of the Canary Islands, the Gaunches.

Wilhelm
26-01-10, 21:50
Yes, most north africans today are Arabic mixed and some Sub-Saharian. The pure berbers are only found in small pockets all along North Africa, from Morocco to Egypt.
This were the Guanches (brown clothes)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/AlonsoFernandezdeLugo2.JPG

Genocentrist
27-01-10, 03:33
I was looking at the mtDNA maps on 23andMe and noticed that Libya had a very different set of haplogroups from its neighbours. It is much more European. Libya is an African pocket of mtDNA I, K, T, U3, U4, U5 and X, all the haplogroups associated with the Caucasus and the Pontic steppes..

Libya although big in land size is really the smallest nation in North Africa population wise so founder effect plays a major role when you keep in mind Libyans numbered under 1 Million in 1945!

Looking at Y-DNA you can see some J2b, R1a1a, R1b1b2, I2, E1b1b1a2 V13 so even amongst the male lines some are related to the Balkans (possibly Greco-Roman influence)

The majority of the male lines are E1b1b1a4-V65 (~30%) followed by E1b1b1b2-M183 (~20%) & J1e1c-L147 (~20%)

G-M201 (~8%) & T-M70 (~5%)

Genocentrist
27-01-10, 03:44
Yes, most north africans today are Arabic mixed and some Sub-Saharian.

Coastal North Africans also mixed with Europeans, that settled North Africa prior to Islamic era (Vandals, Greeks, Romans) & during (Slave variety, Ottoman Troops)

The pure Berbers live in the inland Atlas range, which is mainly in Morroco-Algeria, their purity shows in their 80%+ frequency of E1b1b1b2-M183 opposed to the coasts were genetic diversity peaks around the old civilization centers.

North African natives are two branchs
E1b1b1b-M81 (Exclusively Berbers)
E1b1b1a-M78 (V12 Nubians-Cushites, V22 Anceint Egyptians, V65 Lybians)

Wilhelm
27-01-10, 03:53
Coastal North Africans also mixed with Europeans, that settled North Africa prior to Islamic era (Vandals, Greeks, Romans) & during (Slave variety, Ottoman Troops)

The pure Berbers live in the inland Atlas range, which is mainly in Morroco-Algeria, their purity shows in their 80%+ frequency of E1b1b1b2-M183 opposed to the coasts were genetic diversity peaks around the old civilization centers.

North African natives are two branchs
E1b1b1b-M81 (Exclusively Berbers)
E1b1b1a-M78 (V12 Nubians-Cushites, V22 Anceint Egyptians, V65 Lybians)
Berbers live in very small pockets all along North Africa, and few are Pure Berbers :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Berbers.png

Cambrius (The Red)
27-01-10, 04:27
VERY few pure Berbers...

Genocentrist
27-01-10, 06:30
Berbers live in very small pockets all along North Africa, and few are Pure Berbers

E1b1b1b2-M183 is the Berber marker & they are more than 50% of the population of NW Africa regardless of what they are culturally...

An Arabic speaking E1b1b1b2-M183 is genetically a Beberid
A Berber speaking G-M201 is genetically a Caucasid

The Atlas Berbers are the least mixed, Southern groups have Subsaharids living amongst them & the coastal groups are genetically more diverse with lineages from all over

Maciamo
27-01-10, 11:24
I wished to discuss the presence of Indo-European haplogroups in Libya, not who the Berbers in general are.

Neander
27-01-10, 13:21
I think, those Indoeuropeans mey be Libu, or Lybu, which are Sea Peoples, and this may have conections with an illyrian tribe Liburnians.

transmitter
30-01-10, 19:00
E-M81 is common in North Africa, that is why they are like egyptians.
Why you trying to say that the Berbers are whites all the time?
We see that M86 is in North Africa. Some guys with white faces were the albino or European who migrated.

Some Ainu have blue eyes and blond hair ... Why? We know that there is no R1b, R1a, I, E there.

Wilhelm
30-01-10, 19:24
E-M81 is common in North Africa, that is why they are like egyptians.
Why you trying to say that the Berbers are whites all the time?
We see that M86 is in North Africa. Some guys with white faces were the albino or European who migrated.

Some Ainu have blue eyes and blond hair ... Why? We know that there is no R1b, R1a, I, E there.
Not true. E-M81 is common in the NorthWest of north-Africa in Berbers, not all north-Africa. In Egypt or Lybia , the E-M81 is not common. And Berbers do have european mtDNA llike H, V ,etc

Cambrius (The Red)
30-01-10, 19:39
E-M81 is common in North Africa, that is why they are like egyptians.
Why you trying to say that the Berbers are whites all the time?
We see that M86 is in North Africa. Some guys with white faces were the albino or European who migrated.

Some Ainu have blue eyes and blond hair ... Why? We know that there is no R1b, R1a, I, E there.

You don't seem to know much about genetics or history. NATIVE ORIGIN (original indigenous) Berbers were / are (what remains) EURASIAN and E subclade M-81. This subclade pertains primarily to NW Africa, although it is found as far north as Scandinavia. Today's "Berbers" are primarily mixed types. Only 25-30% of North West African (or North East African for that matter) Berbers are genetically white.

The "Berbers" who are "like [E]gyptians" may be culturally "Berber" but, genetically, have little or nothing to do with the direct descendants of true autochthonous Berbers. Please, do some research...

^ lynx ^
30-01-10, 22:46
E-M81 is common in North Africa, that is why they are like egyptians.

Wrong.

http://www.taiwandna.com/SpanishRobinoMap.png
EM-81 distribution from Robino et al. (2008).

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/774/berberhb4.jpg
As you can see EM-81 reachs the highest levels into the "atlas zone" where berbers have remained less mixed with other North African tribes. In Egypt EM-81 levels are extremely low.

Greetings.

transmitter
30-01-10, 23:11
genetically white???What does that mean? White skin, blues eyes? Who did say that M-81 was white?

The Ainu people in Japon have blue eyes, white skin, blue hair *caucasians* faces . Are they white? they belong to haplogroup D.

transmitter
30-01-10, 23:12
You don't seem to know much about genetics or history. NATIVE ORIGIN (original indigenous) Berbers were / are (what remains) EURASIAN and E subclade M-81. This subclade pertains primarily to NW Africa, although it is found as far north as Scandinavia. Today's "Berbers" are primarily mixed types. Only 25-30% of North West African (or North East African for that matter) Berbers are genetically white.

The "Berbers" who are "like [E]gyptians" may be culturally "Berber" but, genetically, have little or nothing to do with the direct descendants of true autochthonous Berbers. Please, do some research...

genetically white???What does that mean? White skin, blues eyes? Who did say that M-81 was white?

The Ainu people in Japon have blue eyes, white skin, blue hair *caucasians* faces . Are they white? they belong to haplogroup D.

^ lynx ^
30-01-10, 23:18
genetically white???What does that mean? White skin, blues eyes? Who did say that M-81 was white?

The Ainu people in Japon have blue eyes, white skin, blue hair *caucasians* faces . Are they white? they belong to haplogroup D.

I fail to see what the ainu people have to do with this. And nobody has said that the berbers have blue eyes (or hair xDD). You said that "EM-81 was common in all North Africa and that it was also common in Egypt and that's why berbers look like egyptians". I have showed you already that you are totally wrong.

You seems a little bit confused about the issue being discussed. :disappointed:

^ lynx ^
30-01-10, 23:20
Maybe this can help...

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=117006299


BERBERS

aboriginal Caucasoid peoples of N Africa, called Imazighen in the Tamazight language. They inhabit the lands lying between the Sahara and the Mediterranean Sea and between Egypt and the Atlantic Ocean. The Berbers form a substantial part of the populations of Libya, Algeria, and Morocco. Except for the nomadic Tuareg, the Berbers traditionally were small farmers, living under a loose tribal organization in independent villages with local industries (iron, copper, lead, pottery, weaving, and embroidery). The Berbers are Sunni Muslims, and their native languages are Afroasiatic languages, but most literate Berbers also speak Arabic, the language of their religion. Berber languages are spoken by about 12 million people, not all of whom are considered ethnic Berbers.

Despite a history of conquests, the Berbers retained a remarkably homogeneous culture, which, on the evidence of Egyptian tomb paintings, derives from earlier than 2400 b.c. The alphabet of the only partly deciphered ancient Libyan inscriptions is close to the script still used by the Tuareg. The origins of the Berbers are uncertain, although many theories have been advanced relating them to the Canaanites, the Phoenicians, the Celts, the Basques, and the Caucasians. In classical times the Berbers formed such states as Mauretania and Numidia.

Until their conquest in the 7th cent. by Muslim Arabs, most of the Berbers were Christian (also, a sizable minority had accepted Judaism), and many heresies of the early African church, particularly Donatism, were essentially Berber protests against the rule of Rome. Under the Arabs, the Berbers became Islamized and soon formed the backbone of the Arab armies that conquered Spain. However, the Berbers repeatedly rose against the Arabs, and in the 9th cent. they supported the Fatimid dynasty in its conquest of N Africa.

After the Fatimids withdrew to Egypt, N Africa was plunged into an anarchy of warring Berber tribes that ended only when the Berber dynasties, the Almoravids and the Almohads, were born. Each of these dynasties succeeded in pushing back Christian kingdoms which had pushed south against the fragmented Moors. With the disintegration of these dynasties, the Berbers of the plains were gradually absorbed by the Arabs, while those who lived in inaccessible mountain regions, such as the Aurès, the Kabylia, the Rif, and the Atlas, retained their culture and warlike traditions. When the French and the Spanish occupied much of N Africa, it was the Berbers of these mountainous regions who offered the fiercest resistance. In more recent times the Berbers, especially those of the Kabylia, assisted in driving the French from Algeria. Contemporary relations between Berbers and Arabs are sometimes tense, particularly in Algeria, where Berbers rebelled (1963–65) against Arab ruled and have demonstrated and rioted against Arab discrimination.

See E. Gellner, Saints of the Atlas (1969); E. Gellner and C. Micaud, ed., Arabs and Berbers (1972); J. Waterbury, North for the Trade (1972).
____________________

Copyright© 2009 Columbia University Press. Used with the permission of Columbia University Press. All rights reserved.

transmitter
31-01-10, 00:03
I fail to see what the ainu people have to do with this. And nobody has said that the berbers have blue eyes (or hair xDD). You said that "EM-81 was common in all North Africa and that it was also common in Egypt and that's why berbers look like egyptians". I have showed you already that you are totally wrong.

You seems a little bit confused about the issue being discussed. :disappointed:
I did not say that.
I said that the Egyptians(their appearance) are very similar to the Berbers because they live in africa. Climate ...

I asked: Why do you call the Berber whites? They live in north west Africa, language is Afro-Asiatic.
I do not understand! Everyone is white!
Their skulls are Caucasian? That is why they are white? "

Cambrius (The Red)
31-01-10, 01:42
I did not say that.
I said that the Egyptians(their appearance) are very similar to the Berbers because they live in africa. Climate ...

I asked: Why do you call the Berber whites? They live in north west Africa, language is Afro-Asiatic.
I do not understand! Everyone is white!
Their skulls are Caucasian? That is why they are white? "

Autochthonous Berbers were / are white. Their origin is EURASIAN, not Near-Eastern, not Semitic. Original Berber descendants, extant in areas of Morocco and Algeria, are white people. The, so-called, common "Berbers" are of mixed racial heritage and not genetically Eurasian (white) Berbers. What is so hard to understand here? Do you think only Europeans are white? ... :rolleyes2:

^ lynx ^
31-01-10, 01:51
I did not say that.
I said that the Egyptians(their appearance) are very similar to the Berbers because they live in africa. Climate ...

Please don't be ridiculous, you didn't say that. :rolleyes2: Here is what you said:


E-M81 is common in North Africa, that is why they are like egyptians.

You said that EM-81 was common in original berbers and egyptians and that's why they look the same (which is false as I showed). Why are you lying now? Please put your thoutghs in order before posting. :rolleyes2:

^ lynx ^
31-01-10, 02:36
From Mathilda's Anthropology blog...


Eurasian Origin of Berbers and modern North Africans

Essentially the same thing, as North Africans are mainly Arabized Berbers..

Essentially, about ten thousand years ago a population wave from the near East swept over North Africa, bringing in gracile Mediterranean people in the Capsian era. A later wave of immigration occurred in the Neolithic when the expanding farmers from the near east ploughed their way across North Africa, some leaving artwork in the central Sahara to mark their passage. As far as DNA studies can tell, the Arab invasions that converted North Africans to Islam made virtually no impact to the population; essentially they converted the local population and didn’t replace them. There was a only trace contribution made to North Africa by Europe during the Barbary slavery era, but quite a significant amount of sub Saharan maternal ancestry was added. The modern North African is mainly Eurasian in ancestry, and cluster with Europeans and west Asians. To quote Cavalli Sforza..

Berbers are located primarily in the northern regions of Algeria and Morocco, but somewhat to the interior, usually not far from the sea. . Berbers are believed to have their ancestors among Capsian Mesolithics and their Neolithic descendants, possibly with genetic contributions from the important Neolithic migrations from the Near East. It is reasonable to hypothesize that the Berber (Afro-Asiatic) language was introduced by the Neolithic farmers

Anyway, this page has a few links to DNA studies of North Africans, which I should really start updating. I’s not complete. One day I will redo the whole thing to be neater and more comprehensive.

Sean Myles1, 2 , Nourdine Bouzekri1, Eden Haverfield1, 3, Mohamed Cherkaoui4, Jean-Michel Dugoujon5 and Ryk Ward1
(1) Institute of Biological Anthropology, University of Oxford, Oxford, UK
(2) Department of Evolutionary Genetics, Max-Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Deutscher Platz 6, 04103, Leipzig, Germany
(3) Department of Human Genetics, University of Chicago, 920 East 58th Street, Chicago, IL 60637, USA
(4) Laboratoire dEcologie Humaine, Faculté des Sciences-Semlalia, Université Cadi Ayyad, Morocco
(5) Centre dAnthropologie CNRS,, University of Toulouse, UMR 8555, France

Received: 15 November 2004 Accepted: 23 December 2004 Published online: 2 April 2005
Abstract The process by which pastoralism and agriculture spread from the Fertile Crescent over the past 10,000 years has been the subject of intense investigation by geneticists, linguists and archaeologists. However, no consensus has been reached as to whether this Neolithic transition is best characterized by a demicdiffusion (witha significant genetic input from migrating farmers) or a culturaldiffusion (without substantialmigration of farmers). Milk consumption and thus lactose tolerance are assumed to have spread with pastoralism and we propose that by looking at the relevant mutations in and around the lactase gene in human populations, we can gain insight into the origin(s) and spread of dairying. We genotypedthe putatively causal allele for lactose tolerance (–13910T) and constructed haplotypes from several polymorphisms in and around the lactase gene (LCT) in three NorthAfrican Berber populations and compared our results with previously published data. We found that the frequency of the –13910T allele predicts the frequency of lactose tolerance in several Eurasian and North African Berber populations but not in most sub-Saharan African populations. Our analyses suggest that contemporary Berber populations possess the genetic signature of a past migration of pastoralistsfrom the Middle East and that they share a dairying origin withEuropeans and Asians, but not with sub-Saharan Africans.

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/berberchildwh1.jpg

Mitochondrial DNA heterogeneity in Tunisian Berbers
Berbers live in groups scattered across NorthAfrica whose origins and genetic relationships with their neighbours are not well established. The first hypervariablesegment of the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) control region was sequenced in a total of 155 individuals from three Tunisian Berber groups and compared to other North Africans. The mtDNA lineages found belong to a common set of mtDNA haplogroups already described in NorthAfrica. Besides the autochthonous North African U6 haplogroup, a group of L3 lineages characterized by the transition at position 16041 seems to be restricted to North Africans, suggesting that an expansion of this group of lineages took place around 10500 years ago in NorthAfrica, and spread to neighbouring populations. Principal components and the coordinate analyses show that some Berber groups (the Tuareg, the Mozabite, and the Chenini-Douiret) are outliers within the NorthAfrican genetic landscape. This outlier position is consistent with an isolation process followed by genetic drift in haplotypefrequencies, and with the high heterogeneity displayed by Berbers compared to Arab samples as shown in the AMOVA. Despite this Berber heterogeneity, no significant differences were found between Berber and Arab samples, suggesting that the Arabization was mainly a cultural process rather than a demographic replacement.

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/berberbeauty.jpg

Genetic studies have emphasized the contrast between North African and sub-Saharan populations, but the particular affinities of the North African mtDNA pool to that of Europe, the Near East, and sub-Saharan Africa have not previously been investigated. We have analysed 268 mtDNA control-region sequences from various Northwest African populations including severalSenegalese groups and compared these with the mtDNAdatabase. We have identified a few mitochondrial motifs that are geographically specific and likely predate the distribution and diversification of modern language families in North and West Africa. A certain mtDNA motif (16172C, 16219G), previously found in Algerian Berbers at high frequency, is apparently omnipresent in Northwest Africa and may reflect regional continuity of more than 20,000 years. The majority of the maternal ancestors of the Berbers must have come from Europe and the Near East since the Neolithic.The Mauritanians and West-Saharans, in contrast, bear substantial though not dominant mtDNAaffinity with sub-Saharans.

This is actually a bit innacurate, as the approximate arrivalof a lot of the Eurasian DNA , excluding U, coincides withthe Neolithic expansion and arrival of the Capsian culture about 10,000 years ago (from Cranio facial studies of ancient Magrebian skulls). The Capsians show a gracile build and small face traceable to the eastern Mediterranean.

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/moroccan-moors1.jpg
The faces of modern North Africa.

Polymorphism of Six Alu Insertions in Morocco: Comparative Study between Arabs, Berbers, and Casablanca Residents
Abstract Alu elements are the largest family of short tandem interspersed elements (SINEs) in human who have arisen to a copy number with an excess of 500 000 copies per haploid human genome and mobilize through an RNAse polymerase III derived transcript in a process termed retroposition. Several features make Alu insertions a powerful tool used in population genetic studies: the polymorphic nature of many Alu insertions, the stability of an Aluinsertion event and, furthermore, the ancestral state of an Alu insertion is known to be the absence (complete and exact) of the Alu element at a particular locus and the presence of an Alu insertion at the site that forward mutational change. Here we report on the distribution of six polymorphic Aluinsertions in a generalMoroccan population and in the Arab and Berber populations from Morocco and their relationships with other populations previously studied. Our results show that there is a small difference between Arabs and Berbers and that the Arab population was closer to African populations than Berber population which is closest to Europeans.

Mitochondrial DNA transit between West Asia and North Africa inferred from U6 phylogeography


Nicole Maca-Meyer1 , Ana M González1 , José Pestano2 , Carlos Flores1 , José M Larruga1 and Vicente M Cabrera1

Published: 16 October 2003

Abstract
World-wide phylogeographicdistribution of human complete mitochondrial DNA sequences suggested a West Asian origin for the autochthonous North African lineage U6. We report here a more detailed analysis of this lineage, unraveling successive expansions that affected not only Africa but neighboring regions such as the Near East, the Iberian Peninsula and the Canary Islands.

Results
Divergence times, geographic origin and expansions of the U6 mitochondrial DNA clade, have been deduced from the analysis of 14 complete U6 sequences, and 56 different haplotypes, characterized by hypervariable segment sequences and RFLPs.

Conclusions
The most probable origin of the proto-U6 lineage was the Near East. Around 30,000 years ago it spread to North Africa where it represents a signature of regional continuity. Subgroup U6a reflects the first African expansion from the Maghrib returning to the east in Paleolithic times. Derivative clade U6a1 signals a posterior movement from East Africa back to the Maghriband the Near East. This migration coincides with the probable Afroasiatic linguistic expansion. U6b and U6c clades, restricted to West Africa, had more localized expansions. U6b probably reached the Iberian Peninsula during the Capsian diffusion in North Africa. Two autochthonous derivatives of these clades(U6b1 and U6c1) indicate the arrival of North African settlers to the Canarian Archipelago in prehistoric times, most probably due to the Saharan desiccation. The absence of these Canarian lineages nowadays in Africa suggests important demographic movements in the western area of this Continent.

The Emerging Tree of West Eurasian mtDNAs: A Synthesis of Control-Region Sequences and RFLPs

Variation in the human mitochondrial genome (mtDNA) is now routinely described and used to infer the histories of peoples, by means of one of two procedures, namely, the assaying of RFLPsthroughout the genome and the sequencing of parts of the control region (CR). Using 95 samples from the Near East and northwest Caucasus, we present an analysis based on both systems, demonstrate their concordance, and, using additional available information, present the most refined phylogeny to date of west Eurasian mtDNA. We describe and apply a nomenclaturefor mtDNA clusters. Hypervariable nucleotides are identified, and the relative mutation rates ofthe two systems are evaluated. We point out where ambiguities remain. The identification of signature mutations for each cluster leads us to apply a hierarchical scheme for determining the cluster composition of a sample of Berber speakers, previously analyzed only for CR variation. We show that the main indigenous North African cluster is a sister group to the most ancient cluster of European mtDNAs, from which it diverged »50,000 years ago.

MtDNA Profile of West Africa Guineans: Towards a Better Understanding of the Senegambia Region

Alexandra Rosa et al.

The matrilineal genetic composition of 372 samples from the Republic of Guiné-Bissau (West African coast) was studied using RFLPsand partial sequencing of the mtDNA control and coding region. The majority of the mtDNA lineages of Guineans (94%) belong to West African specific sub-clusters of L0-L3 haplogroups. A new L3 sub-cluster (L3h) that is found in both eastern and western Africa is present at moderately low frequencies in Guinean populations.A non-random distribution of haplogroups U5 in the Fula group, the U6 among the “Brame” linguistic family and M1 in the Balanta-Djola group, suggests a correlation between the genetic and linguistic affiliation of Guinean populations. The presence of M1 in Balanta populations supports the earlier suggestion of their Sudanese origin. Haplogroups U5 and U6, on the other hand, were found to be restricted to populations that are thought to represent the descendants of a southern expansion of Berbers.Particular haplotypes, found almost exclusively in East-African populations, were found in some ethnic groups with an oral tradition claiming Sudanese origin.

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/berberchildbride.jpg

A possible ancient migration from Asia to Africa was proposed by Cruciani et al. (2002) to explain the presence of some unusual Y-chromosome lineages identified in West Africa. Haplogroup R1 (defined by M173 mutation), without further branch defining mutations (M269 and M17) specific to Europeans, accounted for ~40% of the Y-chromosomes in North-Cameroon, while not yethaving been sampled elsewhere in Africa. More data from Central and Western Africa are needed to cast light on the origin of such idiosyncratic mtDNA and Y chromosome lineages. Thus, our U5 sequences from the Guinean Fulbe people corroborate Cruciani’s hypothesis of a prehistoric migration from Eurasia to West Sub-Saharan Africa, testified by their present day restricted and localised distribution

Alu insertion polymorphisms in NW Africa and the Iberian Peninsula: evidence for a strong genetic boundary through the Gibraltar Straits

Abstract An analysis of 11 Alu insertion polymorphisms (ACE, TPA25, PV92, APO, FXIIIB, D1, A25, B65, HS2.43, HS3.23, and HS4.65) has been performed in several NW African (Northern, Western, and Southeastern Moroccans; Saharawi; Algerians; Tunisians) and Iberian (Basques, Catalans, and Andalusians) populations. Genetic distances and principal component analyses show a clear differentiation of NW African and Iberian groups of samples, suggesting a strong genetic barrier matching the geographical Mediterranean Sea barrier. The restriction to gene flow may be attributed to the navigationalhazards across the Straits, but cultural factors must also have played a role. Some degree of gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa can be detected in the southern part of North Africa and in Saharawi and Southeastern Moroccans, as a result of a continuous gene flow across the Sahara desert that has created a south-north cline of sub-Saharan Africa influence in North Africa. Iberian samples show a substantial degree of homogeneity and fall within the cluster of European-based genetic diversity.

The population history of North Africa is particularly interesting because, although the region belongs to continental Africa, its history has been completely different from the sub-Saharan part. The peopling of the region has been influenced by two strong geographical barriers: the Sahara Desert to the south, which splits the African continent into two differentiated regions, and the Mediterranean Sea to the north, which separates the European and African continents. These geographical barriers may have constrained human movements in NorthAfrica into an east-west gradient, although they were not impermeable to human movements. During the first half of the Holocene, the humid climate that prevailed in the Sahara produced a receding of the desert allowing human settlements, but over the past 5000 years, the Sahara Desert has suffered a gradual aridification and has become as dry as it is nowadays (Said and Faure 1990). Historicalrecords document extensive trade routes that were established across the desert between sub-Saharan Africa and the north coast. In contrast, since the time of the Phoenicians, the city-based settlement pattern of the NW African coast integrated the area into the Mediterranean world. The seaward orientation of populations persisted and, similar to the desert, separated the Maghreb (NW Africa) from the rest of Africa to the south (Newman 1995). Moreover, during the 8th century AD, Berbers from North Morocco and Algeria under Arab leadership crossed the Mediterranean Sea and occupied the Iberian Peninsula for almost eight centuries, although the demographic impact of the conquest is thought to be limited (Hitti 1990).

Until recently, few genetic studies have been performed in NW Africa. In the latest compilation of classical genetic markers in North Africa (Bosch et al. 1997), the first principal component (PC) of gene frequencies showed an east-west pattern of genetic differentiation, in agreement with the geographical barrier imposed by the Sahara and the Mediterranean. Recent work with autosomal short tandem repeats (STRs; Bosch et al. 2000), mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences (Rando et al. 1998), and Y-chromosome haplotypes (Bosch et al. 1999) has suggested that the gene flow between NW Africa and Iberia and that between sub-Saharan Africa and NW Africa has been small. MtDNA variation in NW Africa (Rando et al. 1998) has shown a high frequency (up to 25%) of geographically specific sequences (named haplogroup U6) that is essentially absent in the Iberian Peninsula (from 0% in Andalusians to 5% in Portuguese). The mtDNA analysis has shown a limited gene flow from Europe to NW Africa that could be attributed to recent human movements.The study of Y-chromosome haplotypes (Bosch et al. 1999) shows little admixture between NW Africa and the Iberian Peninsula. The study of 21 autosomal STR loci in NW Africa has also shown a clear genetic difference between NW African populations and Iberians, although some degree of gene flow into Southern Iberia (Andalusians) can be detected (Bosch et al. 2000).

Diversité mitochondriale de la population de Taforalt (12.000 ans bp – maroc): une approche génétique a l’étude du peuplement de l’afrique du nord.

(Mitochondrial diversity in the Taforalt population (circa 12,000 BP, Morocco): a genetic approach to the study of the peopling of North Africa.)

ABSTRACT:

The population exhumed from the archaeological site of Taforalt in Morocco (12,000 years BP) is a valuable source of information toward a better knowledge of the settlement of Northern Africa region and provides a revolutionary way to specify the origin of Ibero-Maurusian populations. Ancient DNA was extracted from 31 bone remains from Taforalt.The HVS1 fragment of the mitochondrial DNA control region was PCR-amplified and directly sequenced. Mitochondrial diversity in Taforalt shows the absence of sub-Saharan haplogroups suggesting that Ibero-Maurusian individuals had not originated in sub-Saharan region.Our results reveal a probable local evolution of Taforalt population and a genetic continuity in North Africa.

Eurasiatic component (J/T, H, U et V) and North African component (U6).

Genetic structure of Taforalt:

Eurasiatic Component : H, U, JT, V: 90.5%

North African component: U6: 9.5 %

42, 8% (9/21) H or U
14, 2% (3/21) JT
2 individuals (9,5%) U6

Essentially, the DNA studies of Berbers observe that they are mostly similar to Eurasians, and that they appear to have arrived in North Africa about 30,000 years ago plus (Mechta Afaloupeople), with a second wave of colonisation in the neolithic from the Near East confirmed by the cranio facial measurements (Loring Brace) of neolithic North Africans. Then then migrated South during the saharan wetphase about 12,000 years ago, with Eurasian Y chromosome now making up 40% of Cameroon’s Y chromosomes as a result (although less in other areas).

All these prehistoric NorthAfricans are described as mostly similar to other Mediterranean Caucasian populations, with a lesser similarity to Nubians from the Wadi Halfa area. There’s a simplified explanation of ancient North African population movements here

Edit to Blog..

To the mad Afrocentrist ‘Nubian’ who claims that these DNA studies prove Berbers are all black and that the white Berbers are the descendants of slaves…

Please show where any of these studies say that.. Because they don’t, at all. They point out that Berbers are mostly Caucasian and that they’ve been in North Africa a very long time.

Explain why every anthropologist who’s looked at Mahgrebian bones in the Holocene describes them as mainly Caucasian Mediterranean.

Explain why the Egyptians uniformly portrayed Libyans as white Caucasians, as they North Africans did on their own art work.

Explain why all the contemporary art and descriptions of the Moors all show a majority Caucasian population.

Why the Guanches, an isolated North African group since the BC’s were all white people with plentiful blondes, if all Berbers were black untill ‘Moorish slavery whitened up North Africa’?

Also, for those who insist in the face of overwhelming evidence they were all black in North Africa until European slaves whitened them up..
http://www.livius.org/a/libya/villa_nile/villa_nile_mus_tripoli_b1.JPG
From the Roman era in Libya. All the Roman era mosaics show a mainly Caucasoid light skinned population in North Africa, as does the rock art.
http://www.livius.org/a/libya/villa_nile/villa_nile_hunt_mus_tripoli.JPG
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/c-coin2.jpg?w=300&h=279&h=279
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/c-coin-6.gif?w=416&h=184&h=184
Carthage era coins, with two coins showing Hannibal.

The Tassili ladies, from Algeria (age unclear, but sometime in the BC). I have a wider collection of images here.

I also have a 16th century image of the contemporary Guanches; pure blood North Africans with no European or sub Saharan ancestry mixed in, isolated on the Canary islands since about 500 BC, alone for about 1,000 years until the Spanish invaded.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/AlonsoFernandezdeLugo.JPG/350px-AlonsoFernandezdeLugo.JPG
In the brown skin clothing. As you can see he is pretty indistinguishable from the Spaniard holding him.

I would also like to point out that the Tuareg at not ‘the only real Berbers’ as is often claimed. In fact, they are related to the Beja, and are relatively recent arrivals in North West Africa who have adopted Berber customs. They are also about half Eurasian in ancestry. The recent contribution of Europeans to the North African genepool is 4% for males, and probably less than 2% for females; 12,000 year old DNA studies show only Eurasian derived mt DNA in ancient North Africans from Morocco. It isn’t likely to be very high though, as the majority of Barbary slaves were males. A good comparison would be the Arabian peninsula. About 8 million or so slaves were imported from Eaest Africa into this area, but only about 10% of the Mt DNA there is African. By contrast about 1.25 million Europeans ended up on the Barbary coast, so this is unlikely to have made a difference of more than a couple of percent to the whole. Way more black African slaves were imported into the area during the Barbary slavery era, so the net difference is probably that they are slightly darker than they used to be.

I’d also like to point out to those who feel the need to spam me with descriptions of Berbers as black or brown from old European texts…

Europeans used these words differently back then. Brown was used to describe anyone with a moderate tan, black was a skin tone of a dark tan seen with black hair and dark eyes. Ladies and children had white skin. Europeans commonly called anyone with black hair and a heavy tan black, so believing that black in medieval/renaissance literature refers to a black African is incorrect. In fact, you can find references to Jews, Turks and Spaniards as being black. Gypsies were still referred to as black into the 20th century. See below. Black Africans are referred to as Ethiopians in these old texts.

The men were very black, with their hair frizzled, the women were the most ugly and the blackest that were ever seen. .. they had sorceresses amongst them , who by pretended to look into peoples hands, to tell them what had or would happen to them…” p. 153 of The Christian journal and Literary Reigster published I 1827 by T & J. Swords? Photo Arabian gypsies , European gypsies James Michener’s Iberia Spanish Travels and Reflections 1968.

18?? – “We were not far from Pressburg when at once we heard in the distance, a singing, shouting and hallooing which continually grew nearer. Presently we met four wagons, in which a brown company of gypsies were seated. It was a curious sight. Their sat men and women, girls and boys all dark as half-negroes, in ragged array, with long shining hair, smeared after Hungarian fashion with lard…We gazed at them in astonishment…” Wanderings of a Journeyman Tailor through Europe and the East: During the years 1824 to 184

COMMENTS POLICY.

Unfortunately necessary, as Afrocentrists feel the need to spam this page with moronic comments. All comments need to be approved by me before they’ll appear. They won’t be posted unless…

* They are an intelligent comment
* I’m in a bad mood and feel like ridiculing someone (Dana/Don).

Cambrius (The Red)
31-01-10, 03:02
The composite of photos in ^Lynx's^ last post gives you a good idea of the difference between Eurasian or autochthonous Berbers and mixed "Berbers". Pretty obvious who is who.

Haganus
31-01-10, 17:20
But please, from where did the first Berbers come? From France and
Spain? If they had an origin in southwest-Europe, they were descendants
of the Aurignac and Cro-Magnon peoples. But from where do the fair
hair and light eyes come? From the French Cro-Magnons?
Perhaps the Berbers are a prove the ancient Cro-Magnons used to have
fair eyes and light eyes! Light eyes and fair hair have a West-European
origin.

Erik

Neander
31-01-10, 17:36
Perhaps the Berbers are a prove the ancient Cro-Magnons used to have
fair eyes and light eyes! Light eyes and fair hair have a West-European
origin.Also, Berbers are prove that haplogroup E was earlier in Europe.

I have a scenario:

Haplogoup DE was created somewhere in Eurasia, perhaps in Central Asia.

Then Haplogroup D was created there, and spread to the whole of China and japan.

Then Haplogroup E was bornt, and after that, his subclades E1 and E2.

E1 enters in Europe, and E2 go to Africa.

What do you think?

P.S. Maciamo, can you divide the posts which are about berbers, to create e new thread about only berbers, and not to mix with libians.

^ lynx ^
31-01-10, 23:26
Haganus the article I posted in the previous page states that original berbers have eurasian origins. Their origin is not in South-west Europe.


[...] Essentially, the DNA studies of Berbers observe that they are mostly similar to Eurasians, and that they appear to have arrived in North Africa about 30,000 years ago plus (Mechta Afaloupeople), with a second wave of colonisation in the neolithic from the Near East confirmed by the cranio facial measurements (Loring Brace) of neolithic North Africans. Then then migrated South during the saharan wetphase about 12,000 years ago, with Eurasian Y chromosome now making up 40% of Cameroon’s Y chromosomes as a result (although less in other areas).

All these prehistoric NorthAfricans are described as mostly similar to other Mediterranean Caucasian populations, with a lesser similarity to Nubians from the Wadi Halfa area. There’s a simplified explanation of ancient North African population movements here.

I'll post this image to help trasnmitter to understand that E-M81 is not common in ALL North-Africa.

http://img.youtube.com/vi/bu4OzKKlU9o/0.jpg

E-M78 (somalid) is present in almost all Europe, reaching peaks in Greece and Italy while in Iberia is just present in the "west wing" of the Peninsula.

http://www.africanamericanculturalcenterpalmcoast.org/historyafrican/em78distrib2.jpg

The most typical subclade of E in Iberia is the E-M81 (the berber marker).

http://www.taiwandna.com/SpanishRobinoMap.png

You can also see a pocket in the french Bretagne and its near areas. And of course the cantabrian pocket around the Pasiegos Valley (near to the basque country). The Pasiegos Valley is a very isolated region into Cantabria, pasiego people have a very charasteristic culture, traditions and language. The E pocket in there is believed to come from the Neolithic.

maltesekid
08-03-10, 07:16
so greeks and italians have a east african somalid ancestor and spain and portugese have a berberid north african ancestor! also dont forget j2 and j1 also t etc

Wilhelm
08-03-10, 16:23
so greeks and italians have a east african somalid ancestor and spain and portugese have a berberid north african ancestor! also dont forget j2 and j1 also t etc
j2 / j1 has nothing to do with E1b1b, plus the levels of J1/J2 in Iberia are VERY low. Well, also E is low, about 5% in all Iberia. Spain and Portugal are not typical meditarrenean countries.

emilsson
07-07-10, 10:27
Modern DNA-research does already give a pretty clear picture. Simply observing the existing phenotypes on photographs or in the living shows what racial admixtures have taken place or are in the process presently. But, in my opinion, one has to start at the beginning: African origin of mankind refers to geographic, not to racial origin. Black African humanity has never changed colour or skeletal structures under a non-African sky. The same goes for rosy-white skin. Neither of the two will change other than through racial mixture. I tend to believe that all colours and skeletal structures go back to the beginning of mankind and have emerged out of a big genetic pool. Mutations, combination, and re-combination played their role. Afro-centric theories, Out-of-Africa, African Eve can easily be used to serve agendas that have nothing to do with Physical Anthropology.
White skin for instance exists under the fur of all types of animals in any climatic zone of the world. As far as the human side goes, changes happen by mixture, exemplified by Ainu, Berbers, and recently some British, or French people, to name only a few. Pure white skin has been proven to exist in China, Japan, North Africa, Polynesia, and Europe. Thanks to DNA we now know a lot better who's who.