PDA

View Full Version : Prevalence of J2 and E-M78 among ancient Ionian Greeks ?



Maciamo
31-01-10, 14:58
One way of reconstructing the genetic past of a region is to look at its present haplogroup admixture and compare it to its colonies (if any). It is a good way to get rid of haplogroups that entered the modern population in between the periods studied. For example, if we compare Iceland to Scandinavia we notice that Iceland almost completely lacks any other haplogroup than R1a, R1b and I1, with a very small amount of N and Q, while modern Scandinavians also have low frequencies of E1b1b, G2a, I2b and J.

The ancient Greeks had colonies stretching from northern Spain to Russia and the Caucasus. Each colony was founded by people from a particular city in the Greek homeland. The Ionians of Miletus (near Kuşadası in Turkey) were particularly prolific, setting up 90 colonies, including all those on the Black Sea shores. After analysing the haplogroups in the region I noticed that J2 (especially J2a4b, a.k.a. J-M67) and E-M78 (esp. E-M123) were the main common denominator to both the Aegean coast of Anatolia and the Black Sea shores.

The Greco-Balkanese J2b and E-V13 are present on the north-western shores of the Black Sea, but on the Russian, Caucasian or Anatolian side. Their presence therefore cannot be attributed to Ionian colonists.

If the Ionian Greeks carried G2a, R1a or R1b lineages, these would be undistinguishable from the Indo-European, Caucasian and Anatolian influence in general.

Among maternal lineages, J, T, U1 and U3 stand out. U3 can be disqualified due to excessive frequencies reaching too deep inland, and the weaker presence in western Anatolia itself. T is also too widespread in Eurasia to be relevant. That only leaves J and U1 as relatively unambiguous traces of Ionian Greek settlements.

archaiocapilos
20-03-11, 23:36
Maciamo you should not use Anatolian Turks to find Ionian Greek y-dna since there is a knew paper which have tested Greeks from Ionia region in Anatolia. Here are the results:
R1b-M269 : 23/89 (25.8%)
R1a-M17 : 5/89 (5.6%)
I1 : 5/89 (5.6%)
I2a : 4/89 (4.5%)
I2b : 3/89 (3.4%)
G2a : 4/89 (4.5%)
G2a3a : 3/89 (3.4%)
E-V13 : 13/89 (14.6%)
E-V22 : 1/89 (1.1%)
E-M35* : 3/89 (3.4%)
J1 : 6/89 (6.7%)
J2a : 12/89 (13.5%)
J2b : 5/89 (5.6%)
T : 1/89 (2.2%)

iapetoc
21-03-11, 05:59
Macciamo

After analysing the haplogroups in the region I noticed that J2 (especially J2a4b, a.k.a. J-M67) and E-M78 (esp. E-M123) were the main common denominator to both the Aegean coast of Anatolia and the Black Sea shores.

By that you are mentioning Both Ionic Greeks In area Miletus, and Miletus colonies like Trebizond Sinope etc of ex Trebizond Empire?
or only in area of Trebizond

can we find connections with other Miletus companies in the west?

archaiocapilos
21-03-11, 13:31
What I find interesting is that Ionian Greeks don't have any Turkish related haplogroups (which would be normal since they lived together for 600 hundred years) but they have more North/West European lineages like I1, I2b and some of the R1b-M269. Is this ancient (Ionian) or recent European admixture when Smyrna was a big commercial center?
Maciamo, modern Turks are not good canditates for ancient Ionians. The natives of Anatolia who mixxed with the colonists became Greeks and they were finally expelled to Greece in 1922 when the war ended. In Smyrna and Ionia today live expelled Turks from Crete, some native remnants, Turks from other regions and even Turkmens and Tatars. This is evident in their y-dna since they have a lot of L ,N ,Q and R1b-M73 (in Pontus, where Turkmens and Mongolians have settled among the Laz after the ex-change of populations, there are even more Central Asian lineages). This is why there is not a lot of E-V13 there.
Ancient Ionians belonged to the same haplogroups with modern Anatolian Greeks I think so it would be great to test Pontic Greeks, more Ionian Greeks (from Alicarnassos, Smyrna, Philadelphia) and people from Aegean islands to identify what they have in common. Ionians have spread J2a and G2a, R1b-M269,E-V13 and J2b as Chians, Smyrnians and Fokeans seem almost identical from previous studies.

Aegean
Smyrna
Fokaia

69
58
31
E-V13
15.9
12.1
19.4
E-V22
1.4
1.7
-
E-M35*
4.3
3.4
3.2
G2a
8.7
8.6
6.5
I*
8.7
12.1
16.1
J1
2.9
4.3
9.7
J2a
14.5
15.5
9.7
J2b
7.2
6.9
3.2
R1a
8.7
5.2
6.5
R1b
18.8
27.6
22.6








Refferences

1. Clinal patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects (Di Giaccomo et.al)
2. Tracing Past Human Male Movements in Northern/Eastern Africa and Western Eurasia: New Clues from Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups E-M78 and J-M12 (Cruciani et.al)
3. The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of
archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean (King et.al)

zanipolo
01-06-11, 13:54
One way of reconstructing the genetic past of a region is to look at its present haplogroup admixture and compare it to its colonies (if any). It is a good way to get rid of haplogroups that entered the modern population in between the periods studied. For example, if we compare Iceland to Scandinavia we notice that Iceland almost completely lacks any other haplogroup than R1a, R1b and I1, with a very small amount of N and Q, while modern Scandinavians also have low frequencies of E1b1b, G2a, I2b and J.

The ancient Greeks had colonies stretching from northern Spain to Russia and the Caucasus. Each colony was founded by people from a particular city in the Greek homeland. The Ionians of Miletus (near Kuşadası in Turkey) were particularly prolific, setting up 90 colonies, including all those on the Black Sea shores. After analysing the haplogroups in the region I noticed that J2 (especially J2a4b, a.k.a. J-M67) and E-M78 (esp. E-M123) were the main common denominator to both the Aegean coast of Anatolia and the Black Sea shores.

The Greco-Balkanese J2b and E-V13 are present on the north-western shores of the Black Sea, but on the Russian, Caucasian or Anatolian side. Their presence therefore cannot be attributed to Ionian colonists.

If the Ionian Greeks carried G2a, R1a or R1b lineages, these would be undistinguishable from the Indo-European, Caucasian and Anatolian influence in general.

Among maternal lineages, J, T, U1 and U3 stand out. U3 can be disqualified due to excessive frequencies reaching too deep inland, and the weaker presence in western Anatolia itself. T is also too widespread in Eurasia to be relevant. That only leaves J and U1 as relatively unambiguous traces of Ionian Greek settlements.

Is Corfu part of your interpretation of the Ionian island group, I say this because Corfu was to last to become Greek, it was illyrian in the bronze age.

would these Ionion island groups also have, E1b1b1a as this is the suspected sea peoples hap group?

archaiocapilos
02-06-11, 18:25
Corfu was a Dorian not an Ionian settlement so your statement is irrelevant

iapetoc
02-06-11, 20:20
Maciamo you should not use Anatolian Turks to find Ionian Greek y-dna since there is a knew paper which have tested Greeks from Ionia region in Anatolia. Here are the results:
R1b-M269 : 23/89 (25.8%)
R1a-M17 : 5/89 (5.6%)
I1 : 5/89 (5.6%)
I2a : 4/89 (4.5%)
I2b : 3/89 (3.4%)
G2a : 4/89 (4.5%)
G2a3a : 3/89 (3.4%)
E-V13 : 13/89 (14.6%)
E-V22 : 1/89 (1.1%)
E-M35* : 3/89 (3.4%)
J1 : 6/89 (6.7%)
J2a : 12/89 (13.5%)
J2b : 5/89 (5.6%)
T : 1/89 (2.2%)



can you share the source!!!!

cause R1b is very high as I1
and J1 is very low,
at least comparing with the colonies of Pontic Greeks
which was Ionians from Miletus

zanipolo
04-06-11, 21:11
Corfu was a Dorian not an Ionian settlement so your statement is irrelevant


Where the Epirotes dorian ? , where the dorians illyric ? , both where not/never Archaen Greek or as some say true Hellenic people.

iapetoc
04-06-11, 23:14
Is Corfu part of your interpretation of the Ionian island group, I say this because Corfu was to last to become Greek, it was illyrian in the bronze age.

would these Ionion island groups also have, E1b1b1a as this is the suspected sea peoples hap group?

well corfu were Faikes Phaiakes Φαιακες, means Grey colour people,
Which tribe is Grey colour?????

zanipolo
05-06-11, 00:24
well corfu were Faikes Phaiakes Φαιακες, means Grey colour people,
Which tribe is Grey colour?????

as it was stated before

green is thracian

blue is persian

grey was illyric

archaiocapilos
05-06-11, 17:07
can you share the source!!!!

cause R1b is very high as I1
and J1 is very low,
at least comparing with the colonies of Pontic Greeks
which was Ionians from Miletus


The paper is named 'The coming of Greeks to Provence and Corsica' Google it and you will find it, it's free!
As far as I know there is not any paper about Pontic Greek Y-DNA and I have explained that using Pontic TURKS is not a good way to identify ancient Greek Y-DNA. For example Turks from Ionia region have a completely different Y-DNA than Greeks from Ionia and I'm pretty sure that this is the case for Pontians too. It seems that Greeks and Turks didn't heavily mix up during Ottoman times thanks to religion.

Carlitos
05-06-11, 17:32
People mix more now than they did in antiquity.