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View Full Version : What's the origins of the Pasiegos and the Cantabrians ?



Joro
22-01-10, 13:54
How come there is so much R1a in Pasiegos?

Wilhelm
22-01-10, 16:18
Your paper actually gives 43% of R1b for the Pasiegos, 60% for the Lebaniegos, and 58% for other Cantabrians (and 60% for Asturias). The average for Cantabria is 52% (71 out of 137 samples). What's interesting is that the Pasiegos have 18% of R1a1. That's huge for Spain. The mtDNA data show that Cantabrians have a fairly unique incidence of hg I, U2, U3 and U4, which are usually found among Pontic steppe people and areas with a lot of R1a. The Pasiegos obviously have steppe ancestors, who mixed with Paleolithic people from the Maghreb (E-M81 combined with U6, L2 and M1). A very unique blend indeed.

Flores gives 58% R1b for Cantabria, and Adams 50% for Asturias. I put both regions in between 50 and 60% on the map.

Galicia is borderline 60%. Adams gives 58%, Flores 63%, and Balaresque's brand new study of R1b also gives 58%. Based on this new study from yesterday I think I should place Galicia in 50 to 60% like Asturias and Cantabria.

I have just verified data for North Portugal and found 53.5% (Flores), 55% (Gonçalves et al.) and 58% (Adams). I will modify the map accordingly.
Interesting to see also the mtDNA V in Cantabria is 14.8%
The 64.28% of R1b for Cantabria in this source :
http://iberianroots.com/statistics/iberian_peninsula.html

^ lynx ^
22-01-10, 17:39
How come there is so much R1a in Pasiegos?

Valle de Pasiegos is a very isolated Valley in south-eastern Cantabria, next to the Basque Country.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Vega_de_Pas_%28Cantabria%29_Mapa.svg/300px-Vega_de_Pas_%28Cantabria%29_Mapa.svg.png

Its habitants have a very characteristic culture and traditions. Their language has some resemblances with asturianu and some words from euskera (basque) also.

http://www.corosydanzasdesantander.com/fotostrajes/pasiegos.jpg
http://www.ruralnaturaleza.com/files/files/1_3FOTO1_F_Sanchoyarto_FFRF_33.jpeg
http://www.cantabriatradicional.com/fotos_antiguas/portadas/pasiegos.jpg

Great part of their haplogroups are believed to come from the times of the Megalitic culture. They are a "rarity" into Spain.

Greetings.

Wilhelm
22-01-10, 18:08
I have read some people claiming the E-M81 is 40% or something in Pasiegos, when in fact it is half of that, about 24% :
http://grupos.unican.es/acanto/aep/BolPas/Ann-Hum-Genet.pdf

Cambrius (The Red)
22-01-10, 19:14
In any case, E-M81 is pre-Neolithic and Eurasian and needs to be separated from Near-Eastern E, commonly found in the Eastern Mediterranean, NE Africa and the Middle East. The great percentage of E in Iberia is M81. Non M81 E probably amounts to no more than 2-3% in both Spain and Portugal, from what I have been able to research.

Wilhelm
22-01-10, 19:50
Actually , the mtDNA of Pasiegos is more related to Northern Europeans than to non-Pasiego Cantabrians
(mtDNA V, I , U5) :

"Congruent with this second hypothesis is a study on MHC class II polymorphisms
that closely relate Pasiegos to Danes, Poles
and Germans rather than to non-Pasiego Cantabrians
(Sánchez-Velasco et al. 1999, 2003)."

"Pasiegos are peculiar for their high frequencies of Y chromosomal markers
(E-M81) with North African assignation, and Y chromosomal (R-SRY2627) and mtDNA (V, I, U5) markers related
to northern European populations.
http://grupos.unican.es/acanto/aep/BolPas/Ann-Hum-Genet.pdf"

LeBrok
08-02-10, 21:23
Maybe Pasiegos are related to Baltic Veneti/Venedi people. Genetically these two peoples might be the close match. They were excellent seamen, could have colonies or easily migrate if in danger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti

Alonzo
15-07-10, 22:16
deleted see below

Alonzo
15-07-10, 22:20
Here are all the the studies I have found about Cantabrians and the E-M81 percentage

1) Scozzari 2001

Pasiegos 7/19 = 37% E-M81

2) Maca-Meyer 2003

Pasiegos 8/45 = 18% E-M81
Lebaniegos 0/37 = 0% E-M81
Other Cantabrians 6/36 = 17% E-M81

Total in Cantabria : 14/118 =12% E-M81

3) Capelli 2009 (161 samples from Brion 2003). Unfortunately no details per region.

Pasiegos ?/50
Lebaniegos ?/51
Santander ?/60

Total in Cantabria ( no details per region) : 21/161 =13% E-M81

4) Cruciani 2004, "Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa". Only pasiegos were tested

Pasiegos 23/56 = 41% E-M81

5) Total Cantabria for all studies (including 170 Pasiegos) : 65/354 = 18.36% E-M81

If we exclude Capelli 2009/Brion 2003 studies as there is no details per region, for Pasiegos only (Scozzari 2001, Maca-Meyer 2003, Cruciani 2004) we get :

Total Pasiegos : 38/120 = 32% E-M81


6) I am not a specialist but do you think it is possible that E-M81 (estimated 5 600 yeard old) , arose in Cantabria and then spread into North Africa and not the opposite ? I remember I read in a recent book by geneticist David B. Goldstein (Jacob's Legacy ) that Berbers may have came to North Africa from Iberia 1 000 BC

Alonzo
15-07-10, 22:31
deleted see above post edited

Carlitos
28-09-10, 00:59
If this is a very long history going to be all even today in the same town, with the moves that have been in Spain since then until today?

If they are so located at a point, I think that its origin should be in a nearest time.

Ferreira
29-06-11, 21:01
Interesting to see also the mtDNA V in Cantabria is 14.8%
The 64.28% of R1b for Cantabria in this source :
http://iberianroots.com/statistics/iberian_peninsula.html


But did you not say you not interested in the Y-DNA?
Up to 40% of the inhabitants of the valley of Pas are Haplogroup E-M81 subclade E. A high frequency so is only found in the Sahara.

Ferreira
29-06-11, 21:05
Actually , the mtDNA of Pasiegos is more related to Northern Europeans than to non-Pasiego Cantabrians
(mtDNA V, I , U5) :

"Congruent with this second hypothesis is a study on MHC class II polymorphisms
that closely relate Pasiegos to Danes, Poles
and Germans rather than to non-Pasiego Cantabrians
(Sánchez-Velasco et al. 1999, 2003)."

"Pasiegos are peculiar for their high frequencies of Y chromosomal markers
(E-M81) with North African assignation, and Y chromosomal (R-SRY2627) and mtDNA (V, I, U5) markers related
to northern European populations.
http://grupos.unican.es/acanto/aep/BolPas/Ann-Hum-Genet.pdf"


Once again the obsession of my compatriots with the Nordics and dreaming of being like them. Science has already shown that the Pas Valley population (Pasiegos) are of Berber origin, possibly Muslim refugees in the sixteenth century, but they do not accept it, still dreaming that they are descendants of Nordic People. To demonstrate this he talks about a report in 1999!
How pathetic!!!

Canek
29-06-11, 21:46
Bravo Ferreira! :good_job:

Rinconete
21-10-11, 17:00
Bravo? That have to say?

Wilhelm
21-10-11, 18:09
But did you not say you not interested in the Y-DNA?
Up to 40% of the inhabitants of the valley of Pas are Haplogroup E-M81 subclade E. A high frequency so is only found in the Sahara.
It's not 40% it's 19% in the more recent and bigger sample. Plus they also have 18% of R1a, a typical Eastern-European haplogroup, that is extremely high for Western Europe, and they have as well typical North-East European mtDNA. Autosomally (full ancestry) they cluster close to Basques.

Knovas
21-10-11, 18:27
It's almost sure they cluster next to Basques. However, ¿is there any study showing this? or ¿other kind of genetic studies showing some of their peculiarities? I think there's probably lack of this interesting samples.

And about haplogroup E, even if it's 40%, it doesn't mean they must have a lot of African. Galicians have quite haplogroup E (more than 20%), and autosomally they are typically Western European. Some people is very confused with haplogroups, or they just want to cause confusion like the guy who wrote such things about the Sahara. Totally crazy.

zanipolo
21-10-11, 20:47
It's almost sure they cluster next to Basques. However, ¿is there any study showing this? or ¿other kind of genetic studies showing some of their peculiarities? I think there's probably lack of this interesting samples.

And about haplogroup E, even if it's 40%, it doesn't mean they must have a lot of African. Galicians have quite haplogroup E (more than 20%), and autosomally they are typically Western European. Some people is very confused with haplogroups, or they just want to cause confusion like the guy who wrote such things about the Sahara. Totally crazy.

I agree we should not classify HG with a race

Cambrius (The Red)
21-10-11, 21:00
It's almost sure they cluster next to Basques. However, ¿is there any study showing this? or ¿other kind of genetic studies showing some of their peculiarities? I think there's probably lack of this interesting samples.

And about haplogroup E, even if it's 40%, it doesn't mean they must have a lot of African. Galicians have quite haplogroup E (more than 20%), and autosomally they are typically Western European. Some people is very confused with haplogroups, or they just want to cause confusion like the guy who wrote such things about the Sahara. Totally crazy.

As genetic science advances, these hateful, delusional charlatans will find their way to the dust-bin of history.

Wilhelm
21-10-11, 21:31
It's almost sure they cluster next to Basques. However, ¿is there any study showing this? or ¿other kind of genetic studies showing some of their peculiarities? I think there's probably lack of this interesting samples.

And about haplogroup E, even if it's 40%, it doesn't mean they must have a lot of African. Galicians have quite haplogroup E (more than 20%), and autosomally they are typically Western European. Some people is very confused with haplogroups, or they just want to cause confusion like the guy who wrote such things about the Sahara. Totally crazy.
Yes, there is a study showing Pasiegos clustering closer to Basques than to other spaniards. As for the haplogroups, yes there are dishonest people out there who manipulate others with no knowledge of genetics, making them believe that frequency of haplogroups is equivalent to admixture levels. But it's not gonna happen in this forum.

Taranis
21-10-11, 22:07
Yes, there is a study showing Pasiegos clustering closer to Basques than to other spaniards. As for the haplogroups, yes there are dishonest people out there who manipulate others with no knowledge of genetics, making them believe that frequency of haplogroups is equivalent to admixture levels. But it's not gonna happen in this forum.

You mean autosomal admixtures? Well, these are exactly what they are, 'admixtures'. And as such, and that gets pretty clear when you look at autosomal maps, such admixtures often actually rather correspond wildly to Haplogroups, and there is obviously no 1:1 correlation. For example, there's a rather strong case that R1b is both Northwest European and Mediterranean admixtures.

Wilhelm
21-10-11, 22:48
You mean autosomal admixtures? Well, these are exactly what they are, 'admixtures'. And as such, and that gets pretty clear when you look at autosomal maps, such admixtures often actually rather correspond wildly to Haplogroups, and there is obviously no 1:1 correlation. For example, there's a rather strong case that R1b is both Northwest European and Mediterranean admixtures.
Believe what you want. Autosomally they are similar to Basques, while in haplogroups they have a different profile. There is a more extreme example of that : Poles and Lithuanians are autosomally somehow close (in plots they are close) yet in haplogroups they are very different : There is near 40% N1c in Lithuania while only near 1% in Poland. Now I have to leave, bye.

zanipolo
22-10-11, 00:29
Yes, there is a study showing Pasiegos clustering closer to Basques than to other spaniards. As for the haplogroups, yes there are dishonest people out there who manipulate others with no knowledge of genetics, making them believe that frequency of haplogroups is equivalent to admixture levels. But it's not gonna happen in this forum.

My theory based on more evidence from TRobb indicates that basques where originally part of the ligurian tribes and they retained their ancient language and HG, while the ligurians had their language slowly replaced by latin/celtic and HG by R1b migrating from anatolia

zanipolo
22-10-11, 00:31
Believe what you want. Autosomally they are similar to Basques, while in haplogroups they have a different profile. There is a more extreme example of that : Poles and Lithuanians are autosomally somehow close (in plots they are close) yet in haplogroups they are very different : There is near 40% N1c in Lithuania while only near 1% in Poland. Now I have to leave, bye.

that is because lithuanians had finns and letts land/occupy on their coast, while modern poland had norse and germanic

Taranis
22-10-11, 01:20
Believe what you want. Autosomally they are similar to Basques, while in haplogroups they have a different profile. There is a more extreme example of that : Poles and Lithuanians are autosomally somehow close (in plots they are close) yet in haplogroups they are very different : There is near 40% N1c in Lithuania while only near 1% in Poland. Now I have to leave, bye.

"Believe what I want"? There's no reason to be rude. I'd like to point out that there is ~40% R1a in Lithuania and over 50% R1a in Poland. And with all the differences that there are, they are geographically close, and it should be expect that they should be autosomally close, no? What applies for Lithuanians and Poles should apply for Cantabrians and Basques as well.

MOESAN
25-11-11, 11:05
I agree we should not classify HG with a race

in big populations, we can find out some links between HG's, mtDNA and autosomals, even if tiny
in little populations, yes, the drift can be very strong and theses links fall down: we have not to exclude links, and we have not to rely to much on them
about PASIEGOS it's evident enough: drift and drift and drift!
E-M81 is about 80%or more in Berber Marocans - it's presence in Spain and Portugal is not from Muslims invasions for the most, but I think it's older (maybe a kind of N-W African Neolithic (Capsian?) and then it's very heavy presence in North Iberia - nothing to do with "Arabs"- the HLA studies seam prove this link between ALL Iberians (Basques too) and Berbers : 'link' is not 'complete similarity' - I don't see old enemies taking refuge in North Iberia without more proofs!
for the so called North-Eastern european HG's we know there was Germanic people in Iberia after the Volkswanderungen (or something like that!) and some R1a could be arrived there from other sources (Hellad) even if I don't believe it: just to be more careful...

Knovas
25-11-11, 13:46
At least, something we can mostly agree.

Siego
05-03-15, 02:11
After discussing with a friend and search at google about our genetics, I found this thread (now necropost :P). Giving a little more first-hand information, as pasiego.

Some of the influence of the north-european genes here is because of some people from north europe (not german, scandinavians) migrating here. Spain had a very important cannon-building place around where many scandinavians worked and they probably mixed with people from here. Add this to the isolated geography and bang.
The rest of our origins... no ******* idea, some say some jews were banned from a big town and ended here...


Our "own" language is mostly a very old/outdated Castillian/Spanish, which is by itself also basque-influenced of course, as the language was born just a few kilometers away from our zone.

Ailchu
19-02-18, 20:26
In any case, E-M81 is pre-Neolithic and Eurasian and needs to be separated from Near-Eastern E, commonly found in the Eastern Mediterranean, NE Africa and the Middle East. The great percentage of E in Iberia is M81. Non M81 E probably amounts to no more than 2-3% in both Spain and Portugal, from what I have been able to research.

what makes you so sure that M81 is pre neolithic? i think you just have to face the fact that the moorish and arab invasion of iberia left its marks up to this day. there was a considerable amount of intermarriage mainly between muslim men and christian women.

https://ballandalus.wordpress.com/2015/08/04/intermarriage-between-muslim-and-christian-dynasties-in-early-medieval-iberia-711-1100/

the berbers and arabs also never stopped to raid the northern christian kingdoms and capture slaves. and as you may know they were able to have as many women as they were able to afford. because of that i think it is likely that big portion of that north african and southeast asian admixture in iberia was introduced rather recently.