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ukaj
10-06-13, 08:10
take a look at this you will find something interesting with these people,http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/4810093/1/

LeBrok
10-06-13, 08:16
yes agreed.but i am confused about ev-13 entering balkans from asia minor,i know 3 waves happen it entered greece first then may have travlled upwards to north albania herzgovinia an dardania.,but how can this dna remain strong in a populated area?It cant,it defeats the purpose as of the slavnic migration.their must have been another people their before i2a.unless they lived in tribal structures,,my cusin is a albanian historian whom works with greeks in athens an around the world,,he said to me when we albanians came their were huge men much bigger than us,,he doesnt go into detail much,But he did say their were people hear before us whom were huge in every way
Surely first there were europeans hunter-gatherers in Balkans. Since 10,000 year ago this region experiences few waves of farmers from fertile crescent, plus bronze age waves of IE from east, plus at the end we have Slavs, Bulgars and Turks. Balkans are huge conglomeration of different peoples and layers of cultures.
Here we are having fun figuring out who came when and what they left in genetic, linguistic and cultural inheritance.

Templar
10-06-13, 09:40
In some point the ancestors of Ihaplogroup were J it doesnt matter how old a studie is they all say same thing,,

No, the ancestors of people with the I haplogroup are IJ.

ukaj
11-06-13, 00:08
No, the ancestors of people with the I haplogroup are IJ. You are correct,IJ,,Ij stems from j..

sparkey
11-06-13, 00:42
You are correct,IJ,,Ij stems from j..

:confused2:

Please look more closely: ISOGG Y-DNA Haplogroup Tree (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNATreeTrunk.html)

ukaj
11-06-13, 03:16
:confused2:

Please look more closely: ISOGG Y-DNA Haplogroup Tree (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNATreeTrunk.html)http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/timeline_comparison.gif this gives you better idea,,

ukaj
11-06-13, 03:17
Ij seperates into 2 branches,j an i,,So they are very much related

zanipolo
11-06-13, 04:37
Ij seperates into 2 branches,j an i,,So they are very much related

correct me If I am wrong, but can we assume then that the I2a in western balkans could have broken away from J there?

If I am not mistaken, this was an early Terry Robb scenario, that I2a was an adriatic marker..............i will find it on the net
I cannot find it here, but internal links are interesting
http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/

ukaj
11-06-13, 10:12
Im unsure if I came from north of blakans it is very strong their but if you look in caucasus you will also see I an j in same area..
correct me If I am wrong, but can we assume then that the I2a in western balkans could have broken away from J there?

If I am not mistaken, this was an early Terry Robb scenario, that I2a was an adriatic marker..............i will find it on the net
I cannot find it here, but internal links are interesting
http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/

ukaj
11-06-13, 10:22
correct me If I am wrong, but can we assume then that the I2a in western balkans could have broken away from J there?

If I am not mistaken, this was an early Terry Robb scenario, that I2a was an adriatic marker..............i will find it on the net
I cannot find it here, but internal links are interesting
http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/If you look at the Andis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andi_%28people%29) people of caucasus they are a avar people we know avars migrated around that area of bosnia an they have a high rate of 12a halpgroup also.infact their genetics are I2a at 24.5 an j1 at 36.7%.this could be a possible that avar brang with them I2a,Because of the low percent of I2a in them could have many meanings,,1 avars migrated before they were assimulated by the surounding genetics R,,even these people Russians (Adygea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adygea) they have 24% I2a.I2a2 i think is a drift from i2a

ukaj
11-06-13, 10:28
correct me If I am wrong, but can we assume then that the I2a in western balkans could have broken away from J there?

If I am not mistaken, this was an early Terry Robb scenario, that I2a was an adriatic marker..............i will find it on the net
I cannot find it here, but internal links are interesting
http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/ just throwing this out their,,these are the people with I2a http://youtu.be/KobaMVC9wYk

ukaj
11-06-13, 10:46
If you look at the Andis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andi_%28people%29) people of caucasus they are a avar people we know avars migrated around that area of bosnia an they have a high rate of 12a halpgroup also.infact their genetics are I2a at 24.5 an j1 at 36.7%.this could be a possible that avar brang with them I2a,Because of the low percent of I2a in them could have many meanings,,1 avars migrated before they were assimulated by the surounding genetics R,,even these people Russians (Adygea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adygea) they have 24% I2a.I2a2 i think is a drift from i2a
Slavs
In the first part of the 6th century, in the Germanic, Langobardian-Gepidian period, neither written nor archaeological sources refer to the presence of Slavs in the Carpathian Basin. Presumably their immigration into some of its territories dates only from the beginning of Avar rule. The Slavs soon integrated into Avar society. According to Byzantine sources, they too fought on the Avar side during the siege of Constantinople in 626. Cremation cemeteries and settlements belonging to Slavic groups which arrived across the passes of the Eastern Carpathians are well known in the territory of Transylvania (western Romania). Slavic people settled on the territory of former Pannonia in three major groups: in northeastern Pannonia (near Budapest), in the valley of the river Zala (near Lake Balaton) and around Pécs (southwestern Hungary). The qualitatively different find material from these geographically distinct areas lends itself in varying degrees to the ethnic identification of these Slavs. In the valley of the river Zala, mixed-rite cemeteries contain the best examples of the ancestral cremation rite of the Slavs (at Kehida and Zalakomár). The process of cultural change is well reflected by the fact that the traditional urned or unurned cremation rite existed side-by-side with the rite of cremation deposited in an Avarian-style shaft-grave (at Pókaszepetk). Jewellery, beads and small costume accessories were uncovered in the cremation burials. It is even more difficult to distinguish Slavic from East European barbarian people merely on the basis of the find material, when the burial rite is of no help. From some Avar cemeteries in western Hungary we know objects resembling those associated with other tribes of Eastern European nomads and Slavs, such as the Antae: bow-brooches, wire ornaments, trapezoid plate pendants, bracelets with flaring ends (at Oroszlány and Pécs-Köztemető). In these cases we cannot really be sure about the people who wore them.

ukaj
11-06-13, 10:58
http://0.tqn.com/d/ancienthistory/1/0/E/f/2/migrations.jpg The huns pushed the ostrogoths downwards,this would have been the migration of people to balkans,,off track just side tracked ,myself...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Invasions_of_the_Roman_Empire_1.png

sparkey
11-06-13, 17:02
just throwing this out their,,these are the people with I2a http://youtu.be/KobaMVC9wYk

Source? Yunusbayev 2011 indicates ~2% I2a among the Adyghe, Cherkessians, and Kabardin. They're rather G2a dominant, with high J2a and R1a as well. It's possible (although difficult to determine without STRs) that the little I2a in them is entirely Russian drift.

sparkey
11-06-13, 17:13
correct me If I am wrong, but can we assume then that the I2a in western balkans could have broken away from J there?

If I am not mistaken, this was an early Terry Robb scenario, that I2a was an adriatic marker..............i will find it on the net
I cannot find it here, but internal links are interesting
http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/

I don't understand the proposed scenario. A population that was J dominant introduced I2a to the Balkans, when?

An Adriatic origin of I2a is within reason, although I'm inclined to disagree. It also depends somewhat on what time period we're discussing. If we're discussing undifferentiated I2a way back in the Paleolithic, then sure, guessing the Adriatic is as good as any. I've guessed I2a as Franco-Iberian during that time period, and I have at least as much support for that. But it's more difficult to maintain I2a as Adriatic once it differentiates. None of its branches--M26 "Sardinian," Dinaric, Western, French outliers, etc.--have their highest modern diversity along the Adriatic. The only I2 group that I'd guess to be anchored solidly to the Adriatic is I2b-ADR, maybe complimented by its more successful closest cousin, I2c, but those are both rare in comparison to I2a.

ukaj
12-06-13, 05:41
I don't understand the proposed scenario. A population that was J dominant introduced I2a to the Balkans, when?

An Adriatic origin of I2a is within reason, although I'm inclined to disagree. It also depends somewhat on what time period we're discussing. If we're discussing undifferentiated I2a way back in the Paleolithic, then sure, guessing the Adriatic is as good as any. I've guessed I2a as Franco-Iberian during that time period, and I have at least as much support for that. But it's more difficult to maintain I2a as Adriatic once it differentiates. None of its branches--M26 "Sardinian," Dinaric, Western, French outliers, etc.--have their highest modern diversity along the Adriatic. The only I2 group that I'd guess to be anchored solidly to the Adriatic is I2b-ADR, maybe complimented by its more successful closest cousin, I2c, but those are both rare in comparison to I2a.I2a is not native to the Adriatic no way in world...its not possiable it more of a inland genetic rather coastal

zanipolo
12-06-13, 08:11
I don't understand the proposed scenario. A population that was J dominant introduced I2a to the Balkans, when?

An Adriatic origin of I2a is within reason, although I'm inclined to disagree. It also depends somewhat on what time period we're discussing. If we're discussing undifferentiated I2a way back in the Paleolithic, then sure, guessing the Adriatic is as good as any. I've guessed I2a as Franco-Iberian during that time period, and I have at least as much support for that. But it's more difficult to maintain I2a as Adriatic once it differentiates. None of its branches--M26 "Sardinian," Dinaric, Western, French outliers, etc.--have their highest modern diversity along the Adriatic. The only I2 group that I'd guess to be anchored solidly to the Adriatic is I2b-ADR, maybe complimented by its more successful closest cousin, I2c, but those are both rare in comparison to I2a.

first was a jest.....regarding the void of J2 in maciano map in old illyrian and replaced identically with I2 ............someone said IJ union must of split somewhere.

In regards to other, the adriatic I2a was due to Robb italian-illyrian connection .......via Sardinia ( that is moving west to east ).........I will need to search my links in eupedia.

In regards to I2c1.........as you know this is my ggmothers fathers marker..........noted as coming via black forest area

zanipolo
12-06-13, 08:12
I2a is not native to the Adriatic no way in world...its not possiable it more of a inland genetic rather coastal

why is it inland?

Ike
26-06-13, 20:21
Obviously I2a people were not maritime, and had none of those skills, or otherwise they'd spread to both sides of Adriatic. That's why the inland assumption is more logical.

ukaj
27-06-13, 10:27
Obviously I2a people were not maritime, and had none of those skills, or otherwise they'd spread to both sides of Adriatic. That's why the inland assumption is more logical.agreed,
It does make more sence saying that I is on the coast of england an all through that,but cant see it being native to med coast of bosnia.

Sile
21-09-13, 22:35
I don't understand the proposed scenario. A population that was J dominant introduced I2a to the Balkans, when?

An Adriatic origin of I2a is within reason, although I'm inclined to disagree. It also depends somewhat on what time period we're discussing. If we're discussing undifferentiated I2a way back in the Paleolithic, then sure, guessing the Adriatic is as good as any. I've guessed I2a as Franco-Iberian during that time period, and I have at least as much support for that. But it's more difficult to maintain I2a as Adriatic once it differentiates. None of its branches--M26 "Sardinian," Dinaric, Western, French outliers, etc.--have their highest modern diversity along the Adriatic. The only I2 group that I'd guess to be anchored solidly to the Adriatic is I2b-ADR, maybe complimented by its more successful closest cousin, I2c, but those are both rare in comparison to I2a.

missed this , so

I was asking where was the IJ split ?

Terry robb states I2* as adriatic and not franco-iberian, but associated with Baden culture

ukaj
18-10-15, 12:25
None of the history excerpts that you pasted have anything to do with this. Your are saying that people in Herzegovina look the closest to Ghegs, but then how come people in Herzegovina have the highest rates of I2? The vast majority of Slavs in the world are R1a (ethnic Russians of which there are over 133 million in the world, ethnic Poles of which there are over 60 million in the world, etc), it is only a tiny fraction of Southern Slavs which are mostly I2: people in Dalmatia (population of around 900,000), Herzegovina (population of around 400,000), and mountainous parts of Bosnia (less than 3 million). Notice how the most isolated and mountainous parts are the ones with the highest rates of I2. The flat-lands to the North which were the most exposed to conquest are mostly R1a and R1B.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpgWhat im saying is i see their is a very small population who are of albanian blood.

Ike
19-10-15, 03:37
The vast majority of Slavs in the world are R1a (ethnic Russians of which there are over 133 million in the world, ethnic Poles of which there are over 60 million in the world, etc), it is only a tiny fraction of Southern Slavs which are mostly I2: people in Dalmatia (population of around 900,000), Herzegovina (population of around 400,000), and mountainous parts of Bosnia (less than 3 million). Notice how the most isolated and mountainous parts are the ones with the highest rates of I2. The flat-lands to the North which were the most exposed to conquest are mostly R1a and R1B.

But now we know TMRCA and age of that I2, and we can assume that Byzantines were right and that Balkan was really empty before Slavic migration in the 6th century?

doku
19-10-15, 09:49
As far as I know, there is very little archaeological evidence of Slavic culture in the Balkans from 6 or 7 century. Expansion I2a din in the Balkans, particular in Bosnia and Herzegovina, occurred after the Turkish conquest in the 15 century, when realy parts of the western Balkans deserted and inhabited by a new population from the south-east of the peninsula.

Ike
19-10-15, 14:33
As, I recall, the whole idea (some 10 years ago) was that I2a was a part of autochthon Balkan population which resided in most isolated and mountainous parts of Dinaric Alps. Now that we know it is very young subclade, and that it most probably came to Balkan during the migration of 6th century, we can admit that our assumptions were wrong. The most isolated part of population hiding in the jungles of Bosnia now turns up to be a recent Slavic migrants. So, the people whose way of life and culture was fitting into our perception of autochthonous, and who were the best candidates for autochthonous population, turn out not to be that. That's why we can also assume that Byzantine Emperor was right when he said that Balkan was unpopulated during the Slavic invasion (or probably sparsely populated). If there was any large autochthon population, that survived Huns, wars and plagues it would be in the shoes of I2a.

Why do you thing that West Balkan was deserted in the 15th century? Yes there were some parts that were deserted, but we know that Turks didn't spend much time in the hinterland of Herzegovina. The terrain was too much inaccessible and there was no goods or gold to plunder. Even if it was deserted, that would not be I2a migrating from the south-east but probably mild and long wave of E/J compound?

doku
19-10-15, 19:28
Benedict Kuripesic in his travel very well illustrates the Turkish conquest of Bosnia 1531 years, also describes the deserted parts of going through, Herzegovina can't be considered separately truth has parts that are very inaccessible but there are also parts with the best climate in Europe. Many other sources to confirm, so that on a "standing people" in Bosnia in one place 1,400 years can't be spoken. Whatever the IMO that the major haplogroups of indigenous peoples in the Balkans I2a and E-V13, we call them Southern Slavs or Vlachs (Illyrians were missing in the 1st century AD)

pxi3351
14-12-17, 22:48
If you knew anything you would first and foremost know about some basic manners, and refrain from posting provocative language on a forum where factual knowledge is shared.Byzantians pronounced Servia as Serbia because they pronounced V as a B.It is a misconception that the word Slav comes from slave, this is disputed today."Slavs" call themselves Slovenes, the root of the word is Слов/Slov (It means "word" in majority of languages). For Slavene you can use the fact that Слава/Slava means glory in all Slavic languages. The theory that Golden Lily is autonomous to Bosnia region can be argued as well since 90% of the scientists that propose this are of Bosnian origin. Imagine if there was a group of Croatian scientists that publish a research on how Croatians are the most intelligent people in Europe, would you believe it or would you rather believe what a group of scientists with different national backgrounds claim. On the Illyrian tribes: Ardani,Labodi and particulary Daorsi are tribes that are native to Albanian population. These surnames are common even today in Kosovo and northern Albania. None of these however seem to connect to Bosnia.

pxi3351
14-12-17, 23:14
Croats do look blondish, Bosnian's do have blondes as well although you will find a lot more Mediterranean look, one thing I noticed as well is the exaggerated Aquiline noses (hook nose) which is present in people of Semitic and Arab origin. I think you would make a difference easily between Croat and Bosnian.

Angela
14-12-17, 23:20
Croats do look blondish, Bosnian's do have blondes as well although you will find a lot more Mediterranean look, one thing I noticed as well is the exaggerated Aquiline noses (hook nose) which is present in people of Semitic and Arab origin. I think you would make a difference easily between Croat and Bosnian.

Well, their genetics are very similar indeed, so there goes that...

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Kristiina_Tambets/publication/264985653/figure/fig2/AS:[email protected]/Figure-2-ADMIXTURE-analysis-of-autosomal-SNPs-of-the-Western-Balkan-region-in-a-global.png

Bachus
20-12-17, 03:25
That's not how you should count. Try grouping the haplogroups by origin.

Paleolithic European haplogroups (I1, I2a, I2b) :

Croatia = 51%
Bosnia = 53%
Serbia = 35%

Near-Eastern haplogroups (E, J, T) :

Croatia = 11%
Bosnia = 24%
Serbia = 42%

Indo-European/Caucasian haplogroups (G2a, R1a, R1b)

Croatia = 38%
Bosnia = 19.5%
Serbia = 23%


The dominant category is Paleolithic for both Croatia and Bosnia, but Near-East for Serbia. Croatia has more Indo-European lineages than Bosnia though.

Note that the data you copied if for Bosnia-Herzegovina, not for ethnic Bosniaks only. It also includes ethnic Serbs and Croats living in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Serbia has 42,5% Paleolitic-Europeans haplogroups (I2a 34%, I1 8%, I2b 0,5%)
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Percentage of Paleolitic European haoplogroups among ethnic Serbs is higher for few percents, because Serbia is an multiethnic country with 20% non-Serbs, and because of that genetic of Serbia is not exactly the same as genetic of ethnic Serbs.

Angela
20-12-17, 03:33
It doesn't matter if the y was found in Europe in the Paleolithic. The amount of "Paleolithic" autosomal dna in any modern Europeans is tiny.

We have I1 and I2 ancient samples which are EEF farmer autosomally.

Litovoi
20-12-17, 14:04
Benedict Kuripesic in his travel very well illustrates the Turkish conquest of Bosnia 1531 years, also describes the deserted parts of going through, Herzegovina can't be considered separately truth has parts that are very inaccessible but there are also parts with the best climate in Europe. Many other sources to confirm, so that on a "standing people" in Bosnia in one place 1,400 years can't be spoken. Whatever the IMO that the major haplogroups of indigenous peoples in the Balkans I2a and E-V13, we call them Southern Slavs or Vlachs (Illyrians were missing in the 1st century AD)
Many/most of the Bosnian stecci,stecak,belonged to the Vlach people,they have scenes with funerary dances,surely connected to the Roman,Samnite and Etruscan traditions from Campagna and S Italy,for example,the Albanella dance or The Tomb of the Dancers from Ruvo.
The dance survived in Western Wallachia,where it's called Hora de Pomana,speaking of stecci,beyond the fancy anthropological links,one thing is clear,they surely knew how to live their lives,because this was oftenly written on the stones.
A good example of living a life comes from the same region,where we can see a detached ,springhtly(desinvolte),direct ,but not a linear ,attitude.

Wonomyro
20-12-17, 14:46
Many/most of the Bosnian stecci,stecak,belonged to the Vlach people,they have scenes with funerary dances,surely connected to the Roman,Samnite and Etruscan traditions from Campagna and S Italy,for example,the Albanella dance or The Tomb of the Dancers from Ruvo. The dance survived in Western Wallachia,where it's called Hora de Pomana,speaking of stecci,beyond the fancy anthropological links,one thing is clear,they surely knew how to live their lives,because this was oftenly written on the stones.

The inscriptions are Slavic:


A fraction of stećci (384[36]) bear inscriptions, mostly in extinct Bosnian Cyrillic, some in Glagolitic and Latin script. The language has some archaic phrases, characterized by Ikavian while toward the end by Ijekavian yat reflex.[37]

Ikavian is still spoken by the Croats in Dalmatia, Bosnia, Istria, Slavonia and Vojvodina and partly by the Bosnian muslims in Central and western Bosnia.

Litovoi
20-12-17, 22:10
The inscriptions are Slavic:
Ikavian is still spoken by the Croats in Dalmatia, Bosnia, Istria, Slavonia and Vojvodina and partly by the Bosnian muslims in Central and western Bosnia.
The stecci confirm what we all already knew about the strategic role of the Vlachs within the Slavic states ,they had complete military and commercial responsabilities.At that time,they spoke both Slavic and Romanian,with the traditional form of organization ,katun,preserved,while many toponims and even original names have also survived until the modern period.
These Slavic states have offered lots of opportunities for them,so that's why they choose Slavic,because they were some of the representatives of the Serbian,Croatian,Bosnian kings and nobles ,it legitimized them.
Many stecci have bows and swords carved,while the right hand raised means vassality.Lots of Vlachs were very wealthy,they traded with Venice,that's why the most important site seems to be Radimlja.The Venetians didn't liked them that much ,because they oftenly caused unrest in their cities,some laws chased them away after trading.
Things were different in the Bulgarian Empire,this was a very large state,conquered by the Greeks,we definitely had an extended autonomy.
Not to mention that I have personally met them,very nice people,by the way.
Still,they have that strong Byzantine-Orthodox manners,which made me think that Ochrid was quite far from us,because our elders had clearly seen Orthodoxy differently,a matter of pride,status,more individualistic,probably that's why the Patriarch from Constantinople used to call the Early Wallachian Orthodoxy heretic.
Gentlemen,there is a Romanian Orthodoxy,in Curtea de Arges ,you could still hear' Domne miserere' in the 16th,17th c.

Angela
20-12-17, 22:56
The Bosniacs, Bosnian Croats, and Bosnian Serbs are virtually identical to one another in terms of overall genetics.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090

Click to enlarge...

9553

Wonomyro
21-12-17, 00:47
The stecci confirm what we all already knew about the strategic role of the Vlachs within the Slavic states ,they had complete military and commercial responsibilities.At that time,they spoke both Slavic and Romanian,with the traditional form of organization ,katun,preserved,while many toponims and even original names have survived also until the modern period. These Slavic states have offered lots of opportunities for them,so that's why they choose Slavic,because they were some of the representatives of Serbian,Croatian,Bosnian kings and nobles ,it legitimize them. Many stecci have bows and swords carved,while the right hand raised means vassality.Many were very wealthy,they trade with Venice,that's why the most important site seems to be Radimlja.The Venetians didn't liked them that much ,because they oftenly caused unrest in their cities,some laws chased them away after trading. Things were different in the Bulgarian Empire,this was a very large state,conquered by the Greeks,we definitely had an extended autonomy. Not to mention that I have personally met them,very nice people,by the way.

The name "Vlach" was initialy used by the Slavs to name speakers of the Latin language. However, when the Vlachs were first mentioned in Croatia and Bosnia they were speaking Slavic language and had Slavic names. It is obvious that the term Vlach got more meanings over time. The funny fact is that mostly Latin speaking citizen of Dubrovnik called the Slavic speaking people in the hinterland - Vlachs, and at the same time they hated when someone called THEM "Vlach"!

The way of life is not a proof of ethnicity, rather a result of adaptation to a different environment. The "Vlachs" who switched to agriculture quickly lost their "Vlach" label, and started to call other shepherds by that name. The word "Vlach" had different meanings in different times. Present day Croatian genetics does not "see" Vlachs.

Lenab
21-12-17, 00:59
Can you guys help me in my GED match results thread?

Lenab
21-12-17, 01:03
https://cogniarchae.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/i2a2.jpg?w=620

Angela
21-12-17, 01:08
https://cogniarchae.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/i2a2.jpg?w=620

It doesn't matter. Y dna doesn't tell you over all autosomal or "ethnic" similarity. Ydna is less than 2% of a man's make up. If that weren't the case, we wouldn't have R1b West Africans.

https://haplomaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/R1b-Hausa-1.jpg

Bosniaks, Serbian Bosnians, and Croatian Bosnians are virtually indistinguishable from each other in terms of overall genetic similarity. Everything people in the Balkans were told about their "ethnicity" seems to be way off base.

Wonomyro
21-12-17, 01:10
The Bosniacs, Bosnian Croats, and Bosnian Serbs are virtually identical to one another in terms of overall genetics.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090

Click to enlarge...



In the Figure 2 one can see that the Hungarian sample shows almost identical proportions but for some reasons it is moved away from "Western Balkan" and paired with French in a group called "West Europe" (!?)

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090

:useless:

Wonomyro
21-12-17, 01:19
Present day autosomal genetics fits well with this 12th century country (orange):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Europe_mediterranean_1190_cropped.jpg
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Europe_mediterranean_1190_cropped.jpg)
...much better then with this 20th century one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sfrj.png

Lenab
21-12-17, 01:23
It doesn't matter. Y dna doesn't tell you over all autosomal or "ethnic" similarity. Ydna is less than 2% of a man's make up. If that weren't the case, we wouldn't have R1b West Africans.

https://haplomaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/R1b-Hausa-1.jpg

Bosniaks, Serbian Bosnians, and Croatian Bosnians are virtually indistinguishable from each other in terms of overall genetic similarity. Everything people in the Balkans were told about their "ethnicity" seems to be way off base.
Silly comment isn't it? Saying haplogroups don't matter, haplogroups are your genetic common ancestor, even different Africans don't have common ancestors which makes them different kind of Africans. If haplogroups don't matter and don't reflect a persons race and ethnic groups why has every race got their own haplogroups?

Lenab
21-12-17, 01:24
It does matter, however it's just a average idea everyone in the world depends actually.

Lenab
21-12-17, 01:27
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/35073-Ancestry-dna-Eurogenes-K13-match?p=527278#post527278

I made a thread about my GED match results which reflected perfectly on a haplogroup test I did a few years before.

Angela
21-12-17, 01:28
^^How many times do I have to agree that Croatians are a lot like Hungarians?

If you had ever read the paper, or if you read it, understood it, you'd know Kovacevic says the same thing, so the snide emoji is uncalled for...

Do you want a tee shirt that says Croatians=Hungarians, or Croatians are not Balkan for Christmas? Would that make you happy?

davef
21-12-17, 01:33
Silly comment isn't it? Saying haplogroups don't matter, haplogroups are your genetic common ancestor, even different Africans don't have common ancestors which makes them different kind of Africans. If haplogroups don't matter and don't reflect a persons race and ethnic groups why has every race got their own haplogroups?

One French sibling inherits autosomes from a great great great granddad, his brother inherits nothing from him. Can we say they are different kinds of French?

Angela
21-12-17, 01:42
Silly comment isn't it? Saying haplogroups don't matter, haplogroups are your genetic common ancestor, even different Africans don't have common ancestors which makes them different kind of Africans. If haplogroups don't matter and don't reflect a persons race and ethnic groups why has every race got their own haplogroups?

Please do some reading on population genetics. Uniparental markers like the y can be helpful for migration movements, but they can be very unhelpful for an individual's ancestry.

A group of Y chromsome R1b herders goes to Africa, ultimately deriving from EUROPE. They bring very few women with them. By 5-10 generations in of mixing with African women, they are no longer EUROPEAN in any meaningful sense. They are African, they speak African languages, and they look African.

You have very outmoded ideas. See, if you're rude, people will be rude back.

srdceleva
21-12-17, 01:49
The Bosniacs, Bosnian Croats, and Bosnian Serbs are virtually identical to one another in terms of overall genetics.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090

Click to enlarge...

9553Ive seen a lot of former Yugoslavian kits on gedmatch and there are some differences. Croats are more slavic genetically and more nothern shifted while serbs are more bulgarian and med shifted. Hungarians and croats cluster closer on a pca plot than croats and serbs for the most part. Bosnians are everything in between.

Wonomyro
21-12-17, 01:52
^^How many times do I have to agree that Croatians are a lot like Hungarians?

If you had ever read the paper, or if you read it, understood it, you'd know Kovacevic says the same thing, so the snide emoji is uncalled for...

Do you want a tee shirt that says Croatians=Hungarians, or Croatians are not Balkan for Christmas? Would that make you happy?

Not necessarily. I am just curious about the criteria the authors used to group countries in the graph. Genetic clustering? Geography? Language? Shoe sizes?

Lenab
21-12-17, 02:00
One French sibling inherits autosomes from a great great great granddad, his brother inherits nothing from him. Can we say they are different kinds of French?
People have more than one haplogroup usually their main haplogroup links up to their main ancestry like ultimately that's what they are every country has a list of haplogroups

Wonomyro
21-12-17, 02:01
^^How many times do I have to agree that Croatians are a lot like Hungarians?

If you had ever read the paper, or if you read it, understood it, you'd know Kovacevic says the same thing, so the snide emoji is uncalled for...

Do you want a tee shirt that says Croatians=Hungarians, or Croatians are not Balkan for Christmas? Would that make you happy?

Not necessarily. I am just curious about the criteria the authors used to group countries in the graph. Genetic clustering? Geography? Language? Shoe sizes?

Angela
21-12-17, 02:02
Not necessarily. I am just curious about the criteria the authors used to group countries in the graph. Genetic clustering? Geography? Language? Shoe sizes?

They use ADMIXTURE program, Tree Graph, PCA, and IBD. If you don't know what they are you're incapable of understanding the paper, so look them up.

Why are some of you so proud of your ignorance?

@srdceleva,
Gedmatch is no substitute for the kind of analysis done in the study. Plus, my post was limited to three groups:
Bosniaks, Bosnian Croats, and Bosnian Serbs.

Lenab
21-12-17, 02:03
Not necessarily. I am just curious about the criteria the authors used to group countries in the graph. Genetic clustering? Geography? Language? Shoe sizes?
Serbians are genetically closer to Croats it varies like South Serbia is closer to Albania and Former Yugo Macedonia

Lenab
21-12-17, 02:04
They use ADMIXTURE program, Tree Graph, PCA, and IBD. If you don't know what they are you're incapable of understanding the paper, so look them up.

Why are some of you so proud of your ignorance?

@srdceleva,
Gedmatch is no substitute for the kind of analysis done in the study. Plus, my post was limited to three groups:
Bosniaks, Bosnian Croats, and Bosnian Serbs.
What study? me I am not even from Bosnia or whatever

srdceleva
21-12-17, 02:07
They use ADMIXTURE program, Tree Graph, PCA, and IBD. If you don't know what they are you're incapable of understanding the paper, so look them up.

Why are some of you so proud of your ignorance?

@srdceleva,
Gedmatch is no substitute for the kind of analysis done in the study. Plus, my post was limited to three groups:
Bosniaks, Bosnian Croats, and Bosnian Serbs.Ah ok, yes with in bosnia there is no genetic divide.

Yes gedmatch is super limited but it is interesting how its still capable enough to tell us something.

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

Wonomyro
21-12-17, 02:13
They use ADMIXTURE program, Tree Graph, PCA, and IBD. If you don't know what they are you're incapable of understanding the paper, so look them up.

Why are some of you so proud of your ignorance?

Of course they do. They use nice fancy tools. However they put Hungary into West Europe.

Wonomyro
21-12-17, 02:20
Serbians are genetically closer to Croats it varies like South Serbia is closer to Albania and Former Yugo Macedonia

Actually Bosnian Serbs are closer to Croats. Serbians (=from Serbia) are more Bulgarian-like as PCA shows.

Angela
21-12-17, 02:20
What study? me I am not even from Bosnia or whatever

That wasn't addressed to you, if you check. It was addressed to Wonomyro (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/53998-Wonomyro)

I've given him the link to the paper two if not three times.

Here it is again...
"Standing at the Gateway to Europe: The genetic structure of the Western Balkan populations
L. Kovacevic et al

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090

The ADMIXTURE graph I posted comes from that paper.

Lenab
21-12-17, 03:24
That wasn't addressed to you, if you check. It was addressed to Wonomyro (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/53998-Wonomyro)

I've given him the link to the paper two if not three times.

Here it is again...
"Standing at the Gateway to Europe: The genetic structure of the Western Balkan populations
L. Kovacevic et al

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090

The ADMIXTURE graph I posted comes from that paper.
I see thank you for your opinion on my thread

Lenab
21-12-17, 03:25
Actually Bosnian Serbs are closer to Croats. Serbians (=from Serbia) are more Bulgarian-like as PCA shows.
I mean Southern Serbians

Angela
21-12-17, 04:41
I see thank you for your opinion on my thread

Perhaps this is as good a time as any to start learning the rules here.

Any member may comment on any thread.

Newbies should be willing to learn from people who know a lot more than they do...

Perhaps you might want to start with the dedicated paper for the Balkans, but you should also read all of the papers listed in the newbie thread:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34850-Important-papers-for-newbies-to-Population-Genetics

Lenab
21-12-17, 08:59
Perhaps this is as good a time as any to start learning the rules here.

Any member may comment on any thread.

Newbies should be willing to learn from people who know a lot more than they do...

Perhaps you might want to start with the dedicated paper for the Balkans, but you should also read all of the papers listed in the newbie thread:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34850-Important-papers-for-newbies-to-Population-Genetics

Angela I know a lot more than the average person about history in general...But I have some things to learn about certain regions still. I am not only interested in Mediterranean history but general history there's also some questions I want to learn about the Steppes so maybe I should do a general question and list the areas that I am interested in?

Wonomyro
21-12-17, 13:35
I mean Southern Serbians

The PCA plot does not seem to distinguish between Southern Serbians and the rest of Serbians rather between Serbs from Bosnia (light green letters: "Srb") and Serbians (red letters: "Srb"):

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?type=supplementary&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0105090.s002

Lenab
21-12-17, 13:37
Illyrians are not exclusive to one type of people

Lenab
21-12-17, 13:41
The PCA plot does not seem to distinguish between Southern Serbians and the rest of Serbians rather between Serbs from Bosnia (light green letters: "Srb") and Serbians (red letters: "Srb"):

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?type=supplementary&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0105090.s002

Yeah I know but it does vary sub racially though PCA plots are more based on racial grouping like Jews South Italians Circassians Greeks Turks etc

Lenab
21-12-17, 13:45
They might not feel their genetics is enough to differentiate between them, like North and South Italy, I don't know I am not that much of an expert

Litovoi
22-12-17, 17:18
The name "Vlach" was initialy used by the Slavs to name speakers of the Latin language. However, when the Vlachs were first mentioned in Croatia and Bosnia they were speaking Slavic language and had Slavic names. It is obvious that the term Vlach got more meanings over time. The funny fact is that mostly Latin speaking citizen of Dubrovnik called the Slavic speaking people in the hinterland - Vlachs, and at the same time they hated when someone called THEM "Vlach"!
The way of life is not a proof of ethnicity, rather a result of adaptation to a different environment. The "Vlachs" who switched to agriculture quickly lost their "Vlach" label, and started to call other shepherds by that name. The word "Vlach" had different meanings in different times. Present day Croatian genetics does not "see" Vlachs.
Jirecek's theory is not reliable anymore,the Vlachs from Serbia,Bosnia and Croatia had typical positions and forms of organization,recorded later as well,during the Ottoman Empire,like,premikurs,katunars,protogers,kjelators ,lagators,voyvods and knezes(only the last two are Slavic).
The Morlachs were initially Orthodox,while the Istro-Romanians speak/spoke a language that shares the n-r rhotacism with Tosk Albanian and some Transylvanian dialects,the Romanian-Latin names with this feature are recorded in Bosnia,in the regions towards Serbia, until the late 19th-early 20th c.
They had preserved their identity,for instance,by having an important military role in the Croatian frontier for both the Ottomans and Austrians,"see" a not that complicated link called Statuta Valachorum.
EDIT
I believe that the"Vlachs" are just as good at replying quotes like any other Serb,Bosnian,Croatian.

Wonomyro
22-12-17, 18:56
Jirecek's theory is not reliable anymore,the Vlachs from Serbia,Bosnia and Croatia had typical positions and forms of organization,very oftenly recorded later as well,during the Ottoman Empire,like,premikurs,katunars,protogers,kjelators ,lagators,voyvods and knezes(only the last two are Slavic). The Morlachs were initially Orthodox,while the Istro-Romanians speak/spoke a language that shares the n-r rhotacism with Tosk Albanian and some Transylvanian dialects,the Romanian-Latin names with this feature are recorded in Bosnia,in the regions towards Serbia, until the late 19th-early 20th c.

Some common features that Dalmatian shepherds shared with Vlach and Albanian speakers could be very easily due to the cultural contacts as well as a result of intermarriages.

“Morlachs” never existed as ethnicity except in the minds of Venetians.

The existence of "Statuta Valachorum" is a direct proof that "Vlachs" were also a social category.

Sile
22-12-17, 19:15
Some common features that Dalmatian shepherds shared with Vlach and Albanian speakers could be very easily due to the cultural contacts as well as a result of intermarriages. “Morlachs” never existed as ethnicity except in the minds of Venetians. The existence of "Statuta Valachorum" is a direct proof that "Vlachs" were also a social category.

The venetians did believe in what you say and also that the balkans was comprised of mostly ancient thracians and greeks until the iron-age.

I also believe in this as I see the Dalmatians arrived on the adriatic coast from southern Austria not before 600BC.

Italians match better with romanians, bulgarians, albanians and greeks , which is this greek and thracian only theory for the balkans ...............we see little slavic matching with Italians except a bit in NE-Italy , but this is usually I1 marker which seems to be ancient Illyrian from Noricum ( east -Austria ) ..........although in mtdna , the big big difference is the plus 14% extra of T2b over any other area of Italy. This T2b matches northern Romania - Moldavia area ...............a

Litovoi
24-12-17, 13:15
Some common features that Dalmatian shepherds shared with Vlach and Albanian speakers could be very easily due to the cultural contacts as well as a result of intermarriages.
“Morlachs” never existed as ethnicity except in the minds of Venetians.
The existence of "Statuta Valachorum" is a direct proof that "Vlachs" were also a social category.
You force me to become more technical,
The Morlachs and Vlachs were firstly recorded in those regions at exactly the same time,their movement to Istria is well-documented ,while the language is definitely not Dalmatian.

Wonomyro
24-12-17, 14:28
You force me to become more technical, The Morlachs and Vlachs were firstly recorded in those regions at exactly the same time,their movement to Istria is well-documented ,while the language is definitely not Dalmatian.

There were different peoples speaking different languages under the umbrella terms "Vlach" and "Morlack". A distinct lifestyle and a special social status made them appear as a homogeneous group for an external observer. A small group from Istria (Ćići) is bilingual so there is no reason to favour one origin over another. Vlach status was attractive for Slavs, especially serfs, and AFAIK in order to become Vlach, no one was required a blood test.

If you dont believe what I said, just take a look at the Romanian autosomes. Even with the massive Slavic influx in the past, present day Romanians still appear far "more Balkan" than Croats.

Bachus
24-12-17, 16:49
You force me to become more technical,
The Morlachs and Vlachs were firstly recorded in those regions at exactly the same time,their movement to Istria is well-documented ,while the language is definitely not Dalmatian.

Language of Ćići (Morlachs) known as Istro-Romanian is not Dalmatian (Romance) language.

Istro-Romanian is eastern Romance language such as Romanian and Aromanian, on the other hand Dalmatian language was Italic branch of Romance language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language

Morlachs were not native Latin speakers of western Balkans, they were imigrants from central or southern Balkans.
They came from central or southern Balkans to Dalmatian Hinterland in 14th century, and from there they migrated to Istria and Kvarner in late 15th and early 16th century.
They settled in Istria and Kvarner, and there they were known as Ćići.

Language of native Latin spekers of eastern Adriatic coats was Dalmatian, and that population are originates from Illyrians, some of them are slavized in early middle age and some in the late middle age, last speaker of Dalmatian language was Tuone Udaina and he died in year 1898
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuone_Udaina

This is Istro-Romanian (aka Morlach) language


https://youtu.be/OPkZGMNAljU

Wonomyro
24-12-17, 18:35
Morlachs were not native Latin speakers of western Balkans, they were imigrants from central or southern Balkans. They came from central or southern Balkans to Dalmatian Hinterland in 14th century, and from there they migrated to Istria and Kvarner in late 15th and early 16th century.


There is no proof that the people called Vlachs came from central or southern Balkans to Dalmatian Hinterland in 14th century. The mountain shepherds existed before 14th century in Dalmatia but only around 14-15th century the local sources started to use that term for them.

The term itself emerged in the Balkans (e.g. Serbian charters) where the pastorals were mostly real Vlachs:



The Vlach law refers to various special laws and privileges enforced upon pastoralist communities in Europe in the Late Middle Ages and Early modern period. The term "Vlachs" originally denoted Romance-speaking populations, primarily concerned with pastoralism; the term became synonymous with "shepherds".[1] The concept originates in the laws enforced on Vlachs in the medieval Balkans.[2] In medieval Serbian charters, the pastoral community, primarily made up of Vlachs, were held under special laws due to their nomadic lifestyle.[3] In late medieval Croatian documents Vlachs were held by special law in which "those in villages" pay tax and "those without villages" (nomads) serve as cavalry.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlach_law
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlach_law)