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Maciamo
19-02-10, 12:05
The Egyptians have tested autosomal and Y-DNA markers of three Pharaohs of the 18th dynasty : Amenhotep III, his son Akhenaten and grandson Tutankhamun. The aim was to determine the cause of death of Tutankhamun, who died at age 19. It appears to have been malaria (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8516425.stm).

Although not yet published officially, the Y-DNA results were said to confirm the paternity between the Pharaohs. The video from Discovery Channel (http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/king-tut-unwrapped-king-tuts-paternal-line.html) shows the Y-STR results*, which appear to be R1b and indeed the European R1b1b2 rather than the Levantine/Egyptian R1b1a. R1b1b2 is quite rare in modern Egypt (2% of the population) and was assumed to have come mostly through the Greek and Roman occupation. R1b1a makes up 4% of the Egyptian male lineages and dates from the Paleolithic.

The 18th dynasty (starting in 1570 BCE) follows the period of Indo-European expansion to Europe (4300-2000 BCE), India, Persia and the Middle-East (1700-1500 BCE). The Hittites took over central Anatolia from 1750 BCE, and the Mitanni (of Indo-Iranian origin) ruled Syria from circa 1500 BCE.

Egypt's 18th dynasty inaugurated the New Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Kingdom) after the Second Intermediate Period (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intermediate_Period_of_Egypt), when the Hyksos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos) ("foreign rulers") took over power between 1650 and 1570 BCE. It is very possible that the 18th Dynasty was of Hyksos origin, which could be Hittite or of other Indo-European origin. The Hyksos were described as bowmen and cavalrymen wearing the cloaks of many colors associated with the mercenary Mitanni. This strongly suggest an Indo-European origin indeed, as the steppe people were mounted archers, and the Mitanni are of proven IE origin.


*Only three STR results have been officially published (http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/303/7/638?home) : DYS393=13, DYS458=16, GATA-H4=10

N.B. : There is always the possibility that the video did not show the actual results of the Pharaohs, but those of someone of Western European descent from the US, thinking that nobody would look carefully. This would seriously damage the credibility of Discovery Channel though. I would be that they completed made up the video and the images bear no relation to the narrative.

^ lynx ^
19-02-10, 16:42
N.B. : There is always the possibility that the video did not show the actual results of the Pharaohs, but those of someone of Western European descent from the US, thinking that nobody would look carefully. This would seriously damage the credibility of Discovery Channel though. I would be that they completed made up the video and the images bear no relation to the narrative.

This wouldn't surprise me. IMO Discovery Channel is highly overrated.

Wilhelm
19-02-10, 17:18
I believe some Pharaos were blonde or red-haired, it could certainly be of indo-european origin.

LeBrok
19-02-10, 19:58
They had their chance to publish everything at same time. Why didn't they? Double checking or political correctness not to offend majority of Egyptians of other haplotypes?
This playing down might mean that it was R1b. Time will tell.

luis77
19-02-10, 23:28
If the video shows the actual results of the Pharaohs and their haplogroup is R1b1b2, it is worth to mention that even if R1b1b2 is quite rare in modern Egypt (2% of the population), it is more frequent in NorthWest African where its frequencies are between 7-15% in some regions (Sfax, Tunis, Oran )....
R1b1b2 is estimated to have arisen approximately 4,000 to 8,000 years ago in southwest Asia and to have spread into Europe and North Africa from there.

By the way, the closest match I have found for Tut's haplotype is not with europeans from YHRD but in my haplotypes database with a Tunisian from Gabes. It is known also that some other pharaohs like Sheshonk were of northwest african origin...

rms2
20-02-10, 18:25
It looks like that apparent R1b1b2 haplotype is that of King Tut:

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2010-02/1266545829

This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHngF_b3NuE&feature=related) is also quite informative.

Androcle
16-03-10, 09:02
This article is very interesting.
Please correct Hyskos to Hyksos.

Androcle
16-03-10, 22:21
Thank you for the corrections.

willy
17-03-10, 21:30
I think he could be R1a

Marianne
22-03-10, 19:09
I didn't really do my homework on this, but from what I can remember from history class, some pharaoh lineages where Greek. I can't remember which ones and I can't check at the moment because I'm at work but could this be why their y-dna is different than the majority of Egyptians?

willy
23-03-10, 03:50
The Ptolémées (R1a) and the last femal Kleopatra - Julius ( J2)

Marianne
23-03-10, 10:31
Ptolemees were for sure a Greek dynasty. The name is also Greek. That I can remember.

I can't remember which other dynasties were Greek though

rms2
28-03-10, 20:05
The Ptolémées (R1a) and the last femal Kleopatra - Julius ( J2)

How did you come up with that?

rms2
28-03-10, 20:07
Tut was obviously very European looking. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgTPH5y1-ZI&feature=related)

:grin:

Taranis
23-09-10, 15:50
Question: has there been any verification/falsification of the story regarding Pharao Tutankhamum's Y-Haplogroup?

willy
23-09-10, 17:29
NO simply rumors on the web

secherbernard
23-09-10, 20:33
Question: has there been any verification/falsification of the story regarding Pharao Tutankhamum's Y-Haplogroup?
The source of Y-haplogroup of Tut is here: http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/king-tut-unwrapped-king-tuts-paternal-line.html
The question is: are the pherograms in the video those of Tut? If yes, Tut is R1b.

Aristander
23-09-10, 21:50
The source of Y-haplogroup of Tut is here: http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/king-tut-unwrapped-king-tuts-paternal-line.html
The question is: are the pherograms in the video those of Tut? If yes, Tut is R1b.

It sure looked that way to me too. Looking at the labels on the screen during the plotting it looked like they were KV55. Also if I remember correctly there was a letter found from Tut's queen Ankhesenamun, to the King of the Hittites requesting that he send one of his sons to her as a husband since her husband had died. Perphaps this had happened in the past and Tut's actual male line was from an Hittite or Indo-European "Royal Family?"
I also remember that the Hittite prince died along the way to Egypt and Ai or Horemheb became Pharoh.

Taranis
24-09-10, 00:01
It sure looked that way to me too. Looking at the labels on the screen during the plotting it looked like they were KV55. Also if I remember correctly there was a letter found from Tut's queen Ankhesenamun, to the King of the Hittites requesting that he send one of his sons to her as a husband since her husband had died. Perphaps this had happened in the past and Tut's actual male line was from an Hittite or Indo-European "Royal Family?"
I also remember that the Hittite prince died along the way to Egypt and Ai or Horemheb became Pharoh.

Well, that story certainly looks plausible. So, with all likelihood, we may be really talking about Ankhenaten here? Wow.

Also, there may be a reason why the detail about Tutankhamun's Y-Haplogroup wasn't published: the chair of the Egyptian Supreme Council of Antiquities, Dr. Zahi Hawass, was personally in charge of the whole DNA analysis, and made sure that only personally-picked Egyptians were chosen to immediately work on the mummies. The issue with Hawass is, he claims that he is so picky because he wants to treat the mummies with respect, in reality he is also somebody who's extremely conservative in his views regarding ancient Egypt and who doesn't like paradigm changes in regard for some things in ancient Egypt. The idea that the pharaos of the 18th dynasty may not have been of native Egyptian descend is something that doesn't quite fit in there. While this may sound a little like conspiracy (which I don't like), it may be a perfectly plausible explanation why nothing serious has been published there... :annoyed:

willy
24-09-10, 00:39
R1b is found in Egypt this is not a rare haplogroup on that area some central Africans are R1b at high % thats not extraordinary the Pharaohs were R1b as many other Egyptians . No need the Hittites Kings to explain R1b just a reverse back paleolithic migration to Africa long time before the first civilization

Aristander
24-09-10, 00:41
I doubt it was Ankhenaten, I would guess it probably happened to the lineage during the time of the Hyksos occupation or maybe around the time of the expulsion of the Hyksos. I think there is some doubt about who was the father of Sekenenre or maybe evenAhmose I, who was the founder of the 18th dynasty.

Rum
24-09-10, 16:21
Another thing to mention: Read Manetho's "Aegyptiaka", the most known egyptian historian. He has a Egypt's Kings listing there, starting from Greek Gods such as Zeus etc. not Egyptian Gods. Could that be a clue that the rulers of Egypt were originally Greeks (I am not talking about after Alexander's the Great dynasties such as Ptolemees and Kleopatra who were for sure Greeks).
Most historian do not accept that and they thing that this was due to the antisemitic bias of Manetho, and of course that does not much with the accepted timings... but who knows... there are so many things we still don't know... even the Troyan war was considered to be mythology some decades ago...

Carlitos
25-09-10, 00:48
Should be of Iberian origin.

LeBrok
25-09-10, 05:46
No, no, Canadian. :laughing:

Wilhelm
25-09-10, 13:19
R1b is found in Egypt this is not a rare haplogroup on that area some central Africans are R1b at high % thats not extraordinary the Pharaohs were R1b as many other Egyptians . No need the Hittites Kings to explain R1b just a reverse back paleolithic migration to Africa long time before the first civilization
But the western european branch of R1b is very rare in Egypt, and is not found in Central Africa

willy
25-09-10, 22:42
But the western european branch of R1b is very rare in Egypt, and is not found in Central Africa

R1b1 is defined by the presence of SNP marker P25.
R1b1* is found in northern Cameroon in west central Africa at a very high frequency, where it is considered to represent an early back-migration from Asia.[10] R1b1 reaches a maximum frequency of more than 90% among the Kirdi.[11] R1* (which seems likely also to be R1b1, though not tested for M343 and P25) was also reported in the Bantu of southern Cameroon, and in Oman, Egypt, and the Hutu of Rwanda. Again the authors of the study felt that their data suggested an ancient back migration from Asia to Africa.[12] Another example of R1b1* was discovered in Guinea-Bissau.[13] Further examples have been found among speakers of a variety of different languages in Sudan.[14] The authors of another study have reported finding R1b1-P25(xR1b1b2-M269) Y-DNA in 3% (1/32) of Fante from Ghana, 95% (18/19) of Podokwo from northern Cameroon, 61% (17/28) of Mandara from northern Cameroon, 69% (9/13) of Uldeme from northern Cameroon, 67% (6/9) of Tupuri from northern Cameroon, 9% (1/11) of Bassa from southern Cameroon, 4% (1/24) of Herero from Namibia, 5% (1/22) of Ambo from Namibia, 4% (4/92) of Egyptians, and 4% (1/28) of Tunisians.[15]

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29

Wilhelm
25-09-10, 23:09
R1b1 is defined by the presence of SNP marker P25.
R1b1* is found in northern Cameroon in west central Africa at a very high frequency, where it is considered to represent an early back-migration from Asia.[10] R1b1 reaches a maximum frequency of more than 90% among the Kirdi.[11] R1* (which seems likely also to be R1b1, though not tested for M343 and P25) was also reported in the Bantu of southern Cameroon, and in Oman, Egypt, and the Hutu of Rwanda. Again the authors of the study felt that their data suggested an ancient back migration from Asia to Africa.[12] Another example of R1b1* was discovered in Guinea-Bissau.[13] Further examples have been found among speakers of a variety of different languages in Sudan.[14] The authors of another study have reported finding R1b1-P25(xR1b1b2-M269) Y-DNA in 3% (1/32) of Fante from Ghana, 95% (18/19) of Podokwo from northern Cameroon, 61% (17/28) of Mandara from northern Cameroon, 69% (9/13) of Uldeme from northern Cameroon, 67% (6/9) of Tupuri from northern Cameroon, 9% (1/11) of Bassa from southern Cameroon, 4% (1/24) of Herero from Namibia, 5% (1/22) of Ambo from Namibia, 4% (4/92) of Egyptians, and 4% (1/28) of Tunisians.[15]

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29
It's R1b1 not M269. It's an error. And the R1b found in Tutankhamun is of western-european type of R1b

willy
26-09-10, 01:01
It's R1b1 not M269. It's an error. And the R1b found in Tutankhamun is of western-european type of R1b

Ok not R1b1 may be ? but where is the paper about this ? there is no communication about this Egyptian R1b ? where is the article

willy
26-09-10, 01:20
It is very possible that the 18th Dynasty was of Hyksos origin, which could be Hittite or of other Indo-European origin. The Hyksos were described as bowmen and cavalrymen wearing the cloaks of many colors associated with the mercenary Mitanni. This strongly suggest an Indo-European origin indeed, as the steppe people were mounted archers, and the Mitanni are of proven IE origin.

.

I do not know that Pharaoh Tut was R1b1b2 ? and there is no valuable sources about this story the Egyptian in charge of that research should communicate about the real haplogroup anyway if this R1b he is R1b1 not R1b1b2 and less Indo European who is a language NOT a Haplogroup found in the Steppe

elghund
26-09-10, 01:38
R1b1 is defined by the presence of SNP marker P25.
R1b1* is found in northern Cameroon in west central Africa at a very high frequency, where it is considered to represent an early back-migration from Asia.[10] R1b1 reaches a maximum frequency of more than 90% among the Kirdi.[11] R1* (which seems likely also to be R1b1, though not tested for M343 and P25) was also reported in the Bantu of southern Cameroon, and in Oman, Egypt, and the Hutu of Rwanda. Again the authors of the study felt that their data suggested an ancient back migration from Asia to Africa.[12] Another example of R1b1* was discovered in Guinea-Bissau.[13] Further examples have been found among speakers of a variety of different languages in Sudan.[14] The authors of another study have reported finding R1b1-P25(xR1b1b2-M269) Y-DNA in 3% (1/32) of Fante from Ghana, 95% (18/19) of Podokwo from northern Cameroon, 61% (17/28) of Mandara from northern Cameroon, 69% (9/13) of Uldeme from northern Cameroon, 67% (6/9) of Tupuri from northern Cameroon, 9% (1/11) of Bassa from southern Cameroon, 4% (1/24) of Herero from Namibia, 5% (1/22) of Ambo from Namibia, 4% (4/92) of Egyptians, and 4% (1/28) of Tunisians.[15]

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29

African American haplogroups Y-DNA is estimated to be almost 30%. Ghana and Cameroon were major areas of Atlantic slave trade. Have all the R1b haplogroups been lumped into European origin? The statistics above suggest that R1b for African Americans have African origins in many cases.

willy
26-09-10, 01:51
African American haplogroups Y-DNA is estimated to be almost 30%. Ghana and Cameroon were major areas of Atlantic slave trade. Have all the R1b haplogroups been lumped into European origin? The statistics above suggest that R1b for African Americans have African origins in many cases.

Yes R1b is found in Central Africa at high level and the African Americans R1b have a African Origin so forget R1b = Indo European the steppe people Indo Europeans etc ... all that kind of interpretations . R1b is an very old and dispersed haplogroup it is not specially associated to the Indo European in that case I1c J2 etc ... are Also Indo Europeans the first speakers of the Indo European language if such idea is possible was more probably J2 or a near east haplogroup and not a western paleolithic or neolithic haplogroup as R1b1b2 .

Taranis
26-09-10, 10:08
Yes R1b is found in Central Africa at high level and the African Americans R1b have a African Origin so forget R1b = Indo European the steppe people Indo Europeans etc ... all that kind of interpretations . R1b is an very old and dispersed haplogroup it is not specially associated to the Indo European in that case I1c J2 etc ... are Also Indo Europeans the first speakers of the Indo European language if such idea is possible was more probably J2 or a near east haplogroup and not a western paleolithic or neolithic haplogroup as R1b1b2 .

In my opinion, the only subclade of R1b that may be associated with the Indo-Europeans is the P310 clade. Even there, we have the Basques which are outstanding (though there are a number of models which could explain this).

It should be noted that there's an association of the clade V88 with the Afro-Asiatic language family, in particular (but not exclusively) the speakers of the Chadic language family, which is after all related with Berber, Egyptian and Semitic languages (V-88 varieties are found in the Maghreb, Egypt and the Levante). It also makes sense in so far as when you assume that R1b originated in Central Asia, you have to get through the Middle East to get into Africa. It's clear though that this migration event must be rather ancient. It's possible to assume a founder effect of some kind (perhaps promoted by polygyny etc.) which explains why R1b became so dominant in these areas in Africa.

Maciamo
26-09-10, 11:28
R1b is found in Egypt this is not a rare haplogroup on that area some central Africans are R1b at high % thats not extraordinary the Pharaohs were R1b as many other Egyptians . No need the Hittites Kings to explain R1b just a reverse back paleolithic migration to Africa long time before the first civilization

According to the results viewed from the Discovery Channel, Tutankhamun belonged to the European R1b1b2, not the African R1b1*. This is why it is so surprising.

Please try to read at least the first post in a thread before replying, not just the title.

Wilhelm
26-09-10, 14:02
Yes R1b is found in Central Africa at high level and the African Americans R1b have a African Origin so forget R1b = Indo European the steppe people Indo Europeans etc ... all that kind of interpretations . R1b is an very old and dispersed haplogroup it is not specially associated to the Indo European in that case I1c J2 etc ... are Also Indo Europeans the first speakers of the Indo European language if such idea is possible was more probably J2 or a near east haplogroup and not a western paleolithic or neolithic haplogroup as R1b1b2 .
That's wrong. Most of the African-American's R1b is of the western-european branch, due to intermarrying with White europeans.

Richard Coyle
03-10-10, 17:20
According to the results viewed from the Discovery Channel, Tutankhamun belonged to the European R1b1b2, not the African R1b1*. This is why it is so surprising.

Please try to read at least the first post in a thread before replying, not just the title.

Could this also rule out the Hittite theory, Maciamo?

elghund
03-10-10, 18:18
That's wrong. Most of the African-American's R1b is of the western-european branch, due to intermarrying with White europeans.

Is there a source for that?

Carlitos
03-10-10, 18:48
Los resultados de la prueba de ADN del faraón Tutankamón concluyen que pertenecía a Europa occidental, ibérico por parte de padre. En este enlace se puede leer un pequeño artículo muy revelador sobre esto. Si se confirma supone una noticia que puede cambiar la historia: ¿era la estirpe real egipcia de origen europeo occidental - ibérico?

The results of DNA testing concluded that King Tut belonged to Western Europe, Iberian father's side. In this link you can read a small article on this very revealing. If confirmed is a story that can change history: was the Egyptian royal line of Western European origin - Iberian?

http://www.egiptologia.com/images/stories/noticias/2005-05-05.jpg
http://www.bajaryoutube.com/videos/king-tut-unwrapped-king-tuts-dna-r1b-royal-blood-bytid-bNmZQJsRjrc.html (http://www.bajaryoutube.com/videos/king-tut-unwrapped-king-tuts-dna-r1b-royal-blood-bytid-bNmZQJsRjrc.html)

Maciamo
04-10-10, 12:32
Could this also rule out the Hittite theory, Maciamo?

No, R1b1b2 is also common in Anatolia. According to the Indo-European migration theory, R1b1b2 originated either in Anatolia or around the Caucasus, then migrated to Europe, probably via the Pontic steppes. The Hittite invasion of Egypt is a well documented fact. It remains completely possible that the Indo-European Hittites created a new dynasty in Egypt.

European history has shown (e.g. Normans, Germanic invasions) that foreign invaders can set up new dynasties in the conquered land without having a substantial influence on the genetic pool of the conquered land. I think this is what could have happened in Egypt too.

Carlitos
04-10-10, 15:18
No, R1b1b2 is also common in Anatolia. According to the Indo-European migration theory, R1b1b2 originated either in Anatolia or around the Caucasus, then migrated to Europe, probably via the Pontic steppes. The Hittite invasion of Egypt is a well documented fact. It remains completely possible that the Indo-European Hittites created a new dynasty in Egypt.

European history has shown (e.g. Normans, Germanic invasions) that foreign invaders can set up new dynasties in the conquered land without having a substantial influence on the genetic pool of the conquered land. I think this is what could have happened in Egypt too.

There is no denying the evidence, the paternal origin of the Egyptian pharaohs is Iberian. It is good that one would like genetics, but is very bad form to use only interested.


http://www.bajaryoutube.com/videos/king-tut-unwrapped-king-tuts-dna-r1b-royal-blood-bytid-bNmZQJsRjrc.html (http://www.bajaryoutube.com/videos/king-tut-unwrapped-king-tuts-dna-r1b-royal-blood-bytid-bNmZQJsRjrc.html)


It is hiding the truth, the position of Egypt I think children in many countries have had foreign kings, nothing happens Egypt, tells the truth goes the world!, Oh my God! some can not handle the truth.

Wilhelm
04-10-10, 15:25
Is there a source for that?
Yes, here :

http://www.cstl.nist.gov/strbase/pub_pres/Vallone2004a.pdf

Carlitos
05-10-10, 00:45
I think in a few years are going to have to throw the trash many current ideas about genetics, then nobody can use it at your convenience or you can ignore the obvious, nothing will have a good bit of face.

Richard Coyle
06-10-10, 01:14
No, R1b1b2 is also common in Anatolia. According to the Indo-European migration theory, R1b1b2 originated either in Anatolia or around the Caucasus, then migrated to Europe, probably via the Pontic steppes. The Hittite invasion of Egypt is a well documented fact. It remains completely possible that the Indo-European Hittites created a new dynasty in Egypt.
European history has shown (e.g. Normans, Germanic invasions) that foreign invaders can set up new dynasties in the conquered land without having a substantial influence on the genetic pool of the conquered land. I think this is what could have happened in Egypt too.
Thank you for your answer Maciamo. So, the Hittites invasion may well be the reason for Egyptian Royals DNA.
Seems as though where ever one looks the DNA evidence is vindicating the old late 19th and early 20th century Aryan migration theories. I know most American scholars around 1910 were describing the conquest of our own "American West" as the last of the great Aryan migrations, perhaps they were more accurate than more recent scholars who use the Indo-European designation. Don't get me wrong here I'm not using the word Aryan in a 1930s German sense, but simply as a traditional name for a people who migrated from a particular geographic region, and into many other regions spreading their culture and perhaps their language. So perhaps now it would be more fitting and proper to drop the revisionist Indo-European designation for this people, and instead use the traditional and much simpler Aryan name in it's place.

Maciamo
08-10-10, 10:13
Thank you for your answer Maciamo. So, the Hittites invasion may well be the reason for Egyptian Royals DNA.
Seems as though where ever one looks the DNA evidence is vindicating the old late 19th and early 20th century Aryan migration theories. I know most American scholars around 1910 were describing the conquest of our own "American West" as the last of the great Aryan migrations, perhaps they were more accurate than more recent scholars who use the Indo-European designation. Don't get me wrong here I'm not using the word Aryan in a 1930s German sense, but simply as a traditional name for a people who migrated from a particular geographic region, and into many other regions spreading their culture and perhaps their language. So perhaps now it would be more fitting and proper to drop the revisionist Indo-European designation for this people, and instead use the traditional and much simpler Aryan name in it's place.

I completely agree with you. :satisfied:

Mzungu mchagga
08-10-10, 12:57
@Maciamo

<sniff> You propably just deleted the funniest and most satirical passage of the whole forum... :-(

Carlitos
08-10-10, 23:40
^
Las cadenas de la esclavitud solamente atan las manos: es la mente lo que hace al hombre libre o esclavo.


The chains of slavery only tie our hands: it is the mind that makes men free or slave.

Franz Grillparzer.

Mzungu mchagga
09-10-10, 15:09
@Maciamo

Ah, just discovered you've put it off-topic. Thanks! :smile:

Richard Coyle
09-10-10, 21:06
I completely agree with you. :satisfied:

During the Renaissance astronomers who said that the earth orbited the sun were intimidated into silence. We too live in such an age. An age where belief is more important than scientific inquiry. I have great appreciation for all your research at this site. Your research into the migrations of ancient peoples has been very important for my own historical understanding. This DNA work has significance.

Carlitos
09-10-10, 23:05
Tutankhamun died of malaria and bone disorders, according to genetic study :innocent:

how yes no 2
27-10-10, 01:16
According to the results viewed from the Discovery Channel, Tutankhamun belonged to the European R1b1b2, not the African R1b1*. This is why it is so surprising.
Very surprising indeed, unless they actually digged out pieces of DNA of people who actually discovered his mummy 90 years ago.... who were west europeans and whose remains are recent enough to be traceable... perhaps one of the people who discovered mummy had lot of dandruff.... well, don't blame the archaeologist, he could not know someone will do DNA search there...

Tuthankamon lived quite recently in genetic timeline...around 1333 BC – 1323 BC... if he had haplotypes that are characteristic only of European people now...that would mean that group from which he origins has since than moved from Egypt, over Persia, over ancient Greece, to west Europe without leaving traces on the way...
while I find it possible that ancient Greeks being probably fair haired might have been R1b much more than now, I find it hard to believe that European R1b haplotypes made such a massive journey that stayed unrecorded in history and left no genetic traces along the way...

so, until I see more evidence regarding such a massive journey, I prefer to stick to the dandruff theory..

Marianne
10-11-10, 16:44
...
while I find it possible that ancient Greeks being probably fair haired might have been R1b much more than now...

Greeks during ancient times were no more fair haired than we are now. You can find a decent number of Greeks with very light characteristics now as you could also find back then according to descriptions.
We didn't change much since then.

On the contrary, Greeks and Italians during those times believed to be superior from other populations because as they said they were not too pale like the people of the North and not dark skinned as people in the Middle East or Egypt.

Melusine
10-11-10, 17:42
All scientific papers take time to be published. Protocols have to be followed, and papers have to be submitted to the appropriate boards, (in this case genetic). They do no operated like a forum nor the media (instantly and without scientific proof of what they will eventually publish).

The Y-dna of King Tut, his father and grandfather match, and their mummy's were found by different archeologists at different time lines. Y-dna cannot be "dug out" in pieces. It can be found in bone, body fluids, saliva, hair, blood, (probably not dandruff.) In this case from 3 different mummy's.

Physical features, such as looks, hair color, are passed on both via a mother and a father and not just via y-dna. We all have 46 chromosomes, 23 from mother and 23 from father. Y-dna is but one of those chromosomes, and mtdna is the other. y-dna is only passed onto us from father to son. There is no such thing as mixing y-dna or mtdna. It is via autosomal testing of all our genes that we find the "mixing" of the other 22 chromosomes from each parent. There are "mutations" on the y-dna and mtdna, that can even happen between a father and son, and mtdna has few mutations in many hundreds of years (at times), so this is one reason y-dna is used for genealogical purposes.

One needs to go to information on the web or "other" sources and research when haplogroup R1b1b2 became it's own subclade from the previous parent R clade (in descending order. Try ISOGG and search haplogroup R and it's phylogenetic tree. Or even Wikipedia.


Melusine

how yes no 2
10-11-10, 22:20
The Y-dna of King Tut, his father and grandfather match, and their mummy's were found by different archeologists at different time lines. Y-dna cannot be "dug out" in pieces. It can be found in bone, body fluids, saliva, hair, blood, (probably not dandruff.) In this case from 3 different mummy's.
Melusine
Ok, 3 related mummies with same Y-DNA branch found by different archeologist kind off discard dandruff hypotheses as not likely...So, question is how did R1b branch that now exist in Europe only manage to become genetics of ruling elite in Egypt...

is there anything in ancient history like between 3500BC and 1500 BC about foreign people (not necessarily from Europe) actually conquering Egypt? ("sea people" were later and never managed to conquer Egypt, but perhaps someoone before them did)

Melusine
10-11-10, 22:39
how yes no,

We will have to "wait" and hear from the "experts", on this one. Once they confirm the haplogroup, they will work or are working with Population geneticists to draw some conclusions as to how this hg got to Egypt and when.

The world population 2000 years ago is estimated between 200-300 million persons, and the most populous numbers were in China and India (as they are still today), then Africa , and the Chinese and the Africans do not have the same haplogroups as people from the Middle East, Europe, etc as a whole. This leaves a small gene pool in the areas where people migrated from to the less populated areas of the world (like Europe)..

Melusine

how yes no 2
12-02-11, 22:26
But many geneticists complain that the team used inappropriate analysis techniques. Far from being definitive, the study is "not seen as rigorous or convincing", says Eline Lorenzen of the Center for GeoGenetics at the Natural History Museum in Copenhagen, Denmark. "Many of us in the DNA community are surprised that this has been published."
...
Zink and his colleagues used a genetic fingerprinting approach that involves testing variable regions of the genome called microsatellites, which are made up of short sequence repeats. The numbers of repeats vary between individuals, and by comparing the number of repeats across several microsatellites it is possible to work out whether or not individuals are related.

However, researchers rarely attempt this approach with ancient samples because the original DNA is likely to be degraded, and dwarfed by modern contamination. It's more common to sequence mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) – cells contain around a thousand times more copies of mtDNA than of genomic DNA, improving chances of finding large intact samples.

Zink and Pusch defend their choice, saying that they took extensive precautions to guard against contamination. For instance, they extracted samples from deep inside the mummies' bones, and genotyped lab staff to rule out contamination.
......
But others doubt the precautions were sufficiently rigorous. Robert Connolly of the University of Liverpool, UK, who carried out blood typing of Tutankhamun's mummy in the 1960s, argues that it would be difficult to reach deep enough inside Tutankhamun's thin, fragile bones – or those of the two fetuses – to reach uncontaminated material.
....
Lorenzen adds that many people – not just the Hawass team – have handled the mummies since they were first unwrapped. The authors should have tested non-human samples from the tombs as negative controls, she says.

To judge the quality of the team's results, Lorenzen and others are asking for access to raw data not included in the Journal of the American Medical Association paper – but Zink is reluctant to oblige, fearing the data would spark "a lot of arguing" over technicalities.
...



http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20014-royal-rumpus-over-king-tutankhamuns-ancestry.html

Taranis
01-08-11, 22:39
http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/08/01/king-tut-dna-more-european-than-egyptian/

The article's title is obviously totally sensationalist, and there is some inaccuracies in it (such as the claim that R1b entered Europe in the Neolithic, which we now know to have been debunked as well), as would be expected by the press, but at least we have the verification that Pharao Tut was indeed R1b.

Knovas
01-08-11, 23:02
Yes, and he belonged to the European branch as it is specificated. This haplogroup is very widespread, incredible if we consider all branches.

Taranis
01-08-11, 23:06
Yes, and he belonged to the European branch as it is specificated. This haplogroup is very widespread, incredible if we consider all branches.

The question is this: how did Pharao Tutankhamun end up with that Y-haplogroup?!

sparkey
01-08-11, 23:24
Yes, and he belonged to the European branch as it is specificated. This haplogroup is very widespread, incredible if we consider all branches.

Well, it only specifies R1b1a2 (presumably R1b-M269), which could still be L11- (non-European). Is M269 the farthest downstream they've tested? Egyptians have something like 2% of R1b-M269 nowadays, although I don't know if any is of the L11- Anatolian-type variety.

Edit: To answer myself, briefly, that DYS393=13 strongly indicates L11+. Hmm...

Knovas
01-08-11, 23:32
Well, if they say it's European must be for some reason...they compare it clearly with the R1b you can find in Spain or France. However, we can doubt, I also thought in what you say, and it's posible that due to a problem of ignorance they compare it with the European R1b's, wich have nothing to do with other clades.

For the moment I'll trust them, until there is an evidence showing the contrary.

sparkey
01-08-11, 23:35
Well, if they say it's European must be for some reason...they compare it clearly with the R1b you can find in Spain or France. However, we can doubt, I also thought in what you say, and it's posible that due to a problem of ignorance they compare it with the European R1b's, wich have nothing to do with other clades.

Right, I was just looking at the STRs (they've got 16 now (http://www.igenea.com/en/index.php?c=62)) and they look European, with DYS393=13 being particularly indicative.

Knovas
01-08-11, 23:43
Ok, it seems the information is truly reliable.

LeBrok
02-08-11, 06:32
The question is this: how did Pharaoh Tutankhamun end up with that Y-haplogroup?!

It's intriguing at least. I don't know much about Egyptian history, but I looked up some references and this is what I found.

Tutankhamun (Nebkheperure) 1334 - 1325 - King Tut BC

Around 1500BC there was a big change in Egypt, and be important enough to start a new era called New Kingdom:


THE NEW KINGDOM


EIGHTEENTH DYNASTY
Ahmose (Nebpehtyre) 1539 - 1514 BC
Amenhotep I (Djeserkare) 1514 - 1493 BC
Thutmose I (Akheperkare) 1493 - 1481 BC
Thutmose II (Akheperenre) 1491 - 1479 BC
Hatshepsut (Maatkare) 1473 - 1458 BC
Thutmose III (Menkheperre) 1504 - 1450 BC
Amenhotep II (Akheperure) 1427 - 1392 BC
Thutmose IV (Menkheperure) 1419 - 1386 BC
Amenhotep III (Nebmaatre) 1382 - 1344 BC
Amenhotep IV / Akhenaten 1350 - 1334 BC
Smenkhkare (Ankhkheperure) 1336-1334 BC
Tutankhamun (Nebkheperure) 1334 - 1325 - King Tut BC
Ay (Kheperkheperure) 1325 - 1321 BC
Horemheb (Djeserkheperure) 1323 - 1295 BC

http://www.lost-civilizations.net/ancient-egypt-egyptian-dynasties.html



Expansion of IE were connected with extensive use of horses and chariots.


The chariot, together with the horse itself, was introduced to Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt) by the Hyksos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos) invaders in the 16th century BC and undoubtedly contributed to their military success. In the remains of Egyptian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_ancient_Egypt) and Assyrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria) art there are numerous representations of chariots, from which it may be seen with what richness they were sometimes ornamented. The chariots of the Egyptians and Assyrians, with whom the bow was the principal arm of attack, were richly mounted with quivers full of arrows. The Egyptians invented the yoke saddle for their chariot horses in c. 1500 BC. The best preserved examples of Egyptian chariots are the four specimens from the tomb of Tutankhamun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tutankhamun).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot

Who were the Hyksos that introduced chariots to Egypt?


Traditionally,[who? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words)] only the Fifteenth Dynasty rulers are called Hyksos. The Greek name "Hyksos" was coined by Manetho to identify the Fifteenth Dynasty of Asiatic rulers of northern Egypt. In Egyptian Hyksos means "ruler(s) of foreign countries", however, Manetho mistranslated Hyksos as "Shepherd Kings".


It has been claimed,[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos#cite_note-Winlock-11) that new revolutionary methods of warfare ensured the Hyksos the ascendancy in their influx into the new emporia being established in Egypt's delta and at Thebes in support of the Red Sea trade. Herbert E. Winlock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_E._Winlock) describes new military hardware, such as the composite bow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_bow), as well as the improved recurve bow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recurve_bow) and most importantly the horse-drawn war chariot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot), as well as improved arrowheads, various kinds of swords and daggers, a new type of shield, mailed shirts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_(armour)), and the metal helmet.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos#cite_note-Winlock-11)




I've learned that New Kingdom started at the time when Hyksos were expelled actually. Surprisingly there is no change in royal linage.

There was no distinct break in the line of the royal family between the 17th and 18th dynasties. The historian Manetho (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manetho), writing much later during the Ptolemaic dynasty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemaic_dynasty), considered the final expulsion of the Hyksos after nearly a century and the restoration of native Egyptian rule over the whole country a significant enough event to warrant the start of a new dynasty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmose_I

I know it doesn't prove anything, but I hope it has some entertaining value. ;)

Knovas
02-08-11, 10:27
Oh, I revised Dienekes' blog and found this post:

iGENEA's King Tut claims (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/08/igeneas-king-tut-claims.html)

iGENEA is a Swiss ancestry analysis company which I had deservedly mocked (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/10/igenea-wins-award.html) a couple of years ago because of its ridiculous claims. In my experience, commercial ancestry analysis outfits are often plagued by either of two problems:


They offer too little value, such as a breakdown of an individual into the categories of "Europe", "Asia", and "Africa".
They pretend to offer too much value, such as the ability to connect one's Y-chromosome with Old Testament priests, numerous ancient "tribes", or to break down one's genome to a very fine detail that is not commensurate with the power of the DNA evidence they collect (e.g., with the CODIS markers)

iGENEA is a great example of #2.

Now, they have done it again, pretending to be able to link men with a particular R1b1a2haplotype with King Tut (http://www.igenea.com/en/index.php?c=62). Note that the Y-chromosome of King Tut has never been published, and speculation about it is based on some screencaps from a Discovery Channel documentary that may or may not belong to the Pharaoh:
iGENEA was able to reconstruct the Y-DNA profile of Tutankhamun, his father Akhenaten and his grandfather Amenhotep III with the help of a recording of the Discovery Channel. The astonishing result:
Indeed, the whole business of mummy DNA is highly suspect, as Jo Marchant has covered quite comprehensively in Nature News (http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110427/full/472404a.html); see also King Tut's DNA in doubt (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/01/king-tutunkhamuns-dna-in-doubt.html).

The original paper (http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/303/7/638.abstract) in the JAMA was remarkable for its non-publishing of crucial data necessary to validate the claims within it. This is yet another argument against the flawed peer-review system whose main objective, it seems, is to take in money for journals and dole out prestige to authors, and not to do actual science.

Personally, I'm against most regulation of personal genetics products, unless there is a clear and present medical danger arising from their use: I don't trust government bureaucrats and paternalistic know-it-all scientists to tell us what deserves to be marketed and what does not.

On the other hand, the absence of regulation makes the community's responsibility to speak out against bad products all the more important: such products can only be identified if there is an active and broad group of informed individuals willing to put out the relevant facts out there, and let potential customers decide for themselves.


I don't know what to think now. ¿Was it really clear for you, sparkey, that Tut's Y-DNA it's typical in Europe?

sparkey
03-08-11, 17:07
I don't know what to think now. ¿Was it really clear for you, sparkey, that Tut's Y-DNA it's typical in Europe?

I don't know what to think, either, to be honest. Good job finding that Dienekes post, Knovas. I guess I shouldn't assume that iGENEA actually credibly has so many of King Tut's markers. Maciamo did point out earlier, though, that three of the markers actually were published, including DYS393=13. We would expect 12 there if it was the "Armenian modal haplotype" as I had suggested it might be, with 13 usually reflecting European-type R1b. Still, we need to be cautious.

Goga
25-08-11, 01:34
Incredible!

I believe that R1b is very tough, talented and adventurous haplogroup.

But I don't understand 1 thing. Why are (were) most South European kings (Spain and France) G2a and Nordic kings R1b. Because in south(west) Europe there's more hg R1b than in north(east) Europe.

koni
16-10-12, 18:56
Goga, you must be right, Pharaoh came from the north, see


bsecher.pagesperso-orange.fr/genetique/Busby_R1b%28xL11%29.jpg

Its a map showing the more ancient R1b in europe the L11 distribution. We can see a link from north to south along the amber trade route.

Sennevini
17-10-12, 18:39
But I don't understand 1 thing. Why are (were) most South European kings (Spain and France) G2a and Nordic kings R1b. Because in south(west) Europe there's more hg R1b than in north(east) Europe.

Goga, I hope you know that the French and Spanish royal houses are descended
from the Capet dynasty, starting with Hugh Capet, a Frank, and that most other
European royal dynasties also have their origin in Germany?
Therefore it is not recommandable to compare the royal dynasty-DNA to that of the
country which they rule.

bradmichaellittle
18-10-12, 06:31
Pharaoh Tutankamun Y-DNA pattern has a significant correlation to "Wettin Man".
This is an amazing discovery!!!
I had discovered that the Y-DNA 16 marker pattern is documented on the iGENEA website.
I then compared it against Wettin Man ..... here is the result. There is a GD = 9 between the two samples (using only 16 markers) ..... however it is actually a lot closer than this as just two markers are responsible for GD = 5 i.e. DYS456 = 15 for King Tut vs 18 for Wettin Man and DYS458 = 16 for King Tut vs 18 for Wettin Man.
These two markers have very high mutation rates ..... so there being a large GD between these two samples for these two markers is fully consistent noting that King Tut ruled in 1332BC vs Wettin Man who is alive today.
Additionally King Tut is R1b1a2 whereas Wettin Man is R1b1a2a1a1a.
The next steps here need to be to have a deeper dive with King Tut's Y-DNA to increase the markers up to 67 markers and get a Deep Clade test as well - so that the comparison between the ancient Wettin line (which dates from Dedi in 950 AD) and King Tut can be fully confirmed.
Importantly, the same Y-DNA result was also found for King Tut's father King Akhenaten and his grandfather King Amenhotep III. Also they had red hair, tufts still exist on the mummified bodies.
More details about Wettin Man are on my webpage and associated facebook account.
Thank you,
Brad (the-kings-son.com)

epoch
13-09-13, 21:38
Egypt's 18th dynasty inaugurated the New Kingdom after the Second Intermediate period, when the Hyksos ("foreign rulers") took over power between 1650 and 1570 BCE. It is very possible that the 18th Dynasty was of Hyksos origin, which could be Hittite or of other Indo-European origin. The Hyksos were described as bowmen and cavalrymen wearing the cloaks of many colors associated with the mercenary Mitanni. This strongly suggest an Indo-European origin indeed, as the steppe people were mounted archers, and the Mitanni are of proven IE origin.


Also, the Hyksos worshipped a storm god associated with the Egyptian god Seth. As far as I understand storm and especially thunder gods are strongly associated with Indo-European beliefs.

The Egyptians, according to a papyrus, hated the Hyksos for their worship of this thunder god because Seth is the killer of Osiris in Egyptian mythology and as such wasn't a loved god.

adamo
13-09-13, 23:45
The "Hyksos" where middle eastern invaders who would end up as far south as the gates of Egypt (Sinai peninsula), they would have been pre-cursors to the Hittites.

Ike
05-11-13, 01:10
The Egyptians have tested autosomal and Y-DNA markers of three Pharaohs of the 18th dynasty : Amenhotep III, his son Akhenaten and grandson Tutankhamun. The aim was to determine the cause of death of Tutankhamun, who died at age 19. It appears to have been malaria (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8516425.stm).

New, interesting theory.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/king-tut-was-killed-in-a-chariot-crash--scientists-171906351.html

Angela
05-11-13, 21:49
New, interesting theory.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/king-tut-was-killed-in-a-chariot-crash--scientists-171906351.html

Thanks for that...the funny comments following the story are great...:)

Ike
07-11-13, 22:41
Yes, some of them very creative :)

Vedun
25-06-14, 19:09
Also, the Hyksos worshipped a storm god associated with the Egyptian god Seth. As far as I understand storm and especially thunder gods are strongly associated with Indo-European beliefs.

The Egyptians, according to a papyrus, hated the Hyksos for their worship of this thunder god because Seth is the killer of Osiris in Egyptian mythology and as such wasn't a loved god.

Seth was nothing else than Osiris himself or Osiris's (opposite) Astral brother in the realm called Nuv or Nut... And Nut is Norse NiflHeim or Slavic NAV (Hell, Astral realm, realm of shadows)... praNav ("OMkara") in Vedas. Osiris was Aser or Vedic Asura ("against Surya"), lord of the Underworld, enemy of Devas (gods)...

His cult was originally almost insignificant as was the cult of Seth (later Satan in Bible), before the original Vedic Egyptian Trinity of Raa (Rama) - Heru (Scythian & Slavic god Hors or Horo) & Hathor (Ostara/Mokosh/Astarte/Ishtar/Semele,...) still at the time of pharaoh "Scorpion". Consequently his father became "Geb", which was a occult transliteration of Vedic Shiva (Geb; Djeb; Djev; Jiva; Shiva) which represents "Light" and his "mother" called Nuv or Nut (read my notes above it), which was representing "Darkness"...

Moses himself was a priest of Osiris. (all so called "Biblical stories about his 'royal egyptian' origin, his life as a mathematician are occult lies, perverted truth; to hide the real truth about the whole stuff behind this "curtain")
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/manetho_hyksos.htm

his real (Egyptian) name was Asarseb (the Greek transliteration became "Osarsiph"), which means OSIRIS's "father" (light, carrier); "devoted to Osiris" (note that the official explanation about "Geb" being ""lame one" is false, to hide his real background). Moses was literally one of the earliest "apostles" to the inverted BRahmanic (=Abrahamic) religions which came from Egypt in many new cults; Christianity, Judaism and Islam (as Christian derivative, invented in Vatican for "pagan" arabs" (already worshiping Allah - allah is much older god than several brainwashed Abrahamic preachers think) (Sabeans(another "offspring" of the people of Shiva, worshiping Asuras ), Meccans, - and as a plan B if the Christianity wouldn't be successful in Russia & Ukraine...) So Nuv (transliteration of Nav; Nifl-Heim; from which also derived later occult form about "Nephilims" (Navins) and Rephaims (=occult version of Vedic Ravanas ("Raphael angel", etc, etc)) and Geb (Shiva) with the snake's head were both rulers over the realm called Patala (Nagaloka) in Vedic scriptures...
Shiva's phallus called Lingashtakam became the Osiris's chopped phallus and consequently the center of the Vatican city at "saint peter's square"
http://www.masters-table.org/pagan/obelisk_vatican.jpg




Circumcism in Abrahamic religions is nothing else than an inverted remain of the ancient Shiva's cult...


http://i.ytimg.com/vi/JEqZqLv9H38/0.jpg

This includes the Islamic "Kaaba" (Cube), where people go around it in inverted direction than Hindus...

So this is the place, where your Abrahamic cults came from... Egypt was nothing else than "Old Jerusalem", this was the place where the Christianity was created out of the cult of "Horus & Osiris", also known as Egyptian KRST; KRST became the new KRSTOS (Χριστός) or "Kristos" (Christ) - Shiva (inverted Osiris (Asura)), human parasite, a demon from the realm of inverted "Duat" (Devet; девять Deus; "Ninth" land of Yggdrasil, realm of gods... taking over the original pantheons and demanding human victims as any Mayan, Aztec reptilian 'gods' of human sacrifice...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/View_from_Pyramide_de_la_luna.jpg/1024px-View_from_Pyramide_de_la_luna.jpg

http://oaks.nvg.org/g/hornymos.gif
http://thriceholy.net/JPGs/honore.jpg

http://www.whale.to/c/seth.h4.jpg


http://bornagainbloke.infrajournalist.com/wp-content/uploads/moses_snake_staff.jpg


http://www.parra.catholic.org.au/catholicoutlook/_resources/comar2013bl.jpg

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/42stargate/04images/Arks/ark6.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d0/Arkofthecovenantatkingtutstomb.jpg

This is the god (Bacchus/Osiris/Asura).. He was born approximatelly 14 500 years ago in Sri Lanka according to some Roman sources (about the origin of Bacchus/Osiris), which was in Vedas described as the land of king & demon "Ravana" (Ramayana story)), before his arrival to India and Egypt...

Tomenable
02-01-16, 14:45
Maciamo's Opening Post contains a misinformation - namely a claim that the 18th Dynasty was of Hyksos origin.

This is false, the 18th Dynasty was of native Egyptian origin, the 15th Dynasty were the Hyksos:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteenth_Dynasty_of_Egypt

The first pharaoh of the 18th Dynasty - Ahmose I - was actually the one who expelled (!) foreign Hyksos rulers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighteenth_Dynasty_of_Egypt#Early_Dynasty_XVIII

So if Tutankhamun really had R1b-M269, then it is actually a point against Indo-European origins of this marker.

==================

As for the ethnic identity of the Hyksos who established the 15th Dynasty:

They were either just Semitic-speakers alone, or a multi-ethnic mix of Semites and Hurrians.

Their ruling class could be Indo-Iranian, but evidence for this is very scarce (unlike in case of Hurrian Mitanni).

Angela
02-01-16, 17:47
Wow, what brought back this blast from the past?

The last I heard is that the screen shot could have been just a demo. Until the samples are tested by a few labs around the world we're just speculating.

If he was R1b I would think V-88 would be a much better bet, but who knows? I do, however, find it a bit suspicious that Hawass refused to release the results for Tut, but released the ones for Ramesses III.

If the Hyksos of the Fifteenth Dynasty did carry some forms of R1b, why isn't it possible that they sired some descendants who moved up the ranks and eventually emerged as Pharaohs in a later dynasty? That happened a lot in Egypt. Ramesses I, the founder of the great 19th dynasty, was just a military commander, actually born near the Hyksos capital, and rose to be Pharaoh. Who knows what ydna he carried? We can be sure, however, that all these people were probably autosomally Egyptian; just look at their sculptures.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_I

Or, look at Somerled. Isn't the consensus that he was R1a? Yet he's the great "Celtic" hero against the Norse. The real world is messy and complicated in terms of genetics. People in the past didn't identify with their yDna. Well, most people today don't identify with it either. :) They identify with their culture. The Norse people could have been moving into the area for quite a while. People mate, and not always in the culturally permitted or "legal" ways. Things happen. Look at the mess in the English medieval royal lines. Lots of changes in yDna. Which is the "legitimate" one?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerled

Anyway, by the 20th dynasty Ramses III was ydna "E1a". Things change.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_haplogroups_of_historic_people#Tutankhamun

RobertColumbia
03-01-16, 03:20
Ok, 3 related mummies with same Y-DNA branch found by different archeologist kind off discard dandruff hypotheses as not likely...So, question is how did R1b branch that now exist in Europe only manage to become genetics of ruling elite in Egypt...

is there anything in ancient history like between 3500BC and 1500 BC about foreign people (not necessarily from Europe) actually conquering Egypt? ("sea people" were later and never managed to conquer Egypt, but perhaps someoone before them did)

Yes, there is. The Hyksos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos) are reported by some writers as being a "foreign" group of people who conquered Egypt for some time.

Brennos
04-01-16, 22:22
==================

As for the ethnic identity of the Hyksos who established the 15th Dynasty:

They were either just Semitic-speakers alone, or a multi-ethnic mix of Semites and Hurrians.

Their ruling class could be Indo-Iranian, but evidence for this is very scarce (unlike in case of Hurrian Mitanni).

I don't know why scholars think that a ruling class having Indo-aryan names must therefore be Indo-aryan in origin, even if the people belonged to another ethnicity.
If only those scholars had studied some genealogy applied to history in the Italian Peninsula!

I put an example: in the place from where my family came from, there were two forms of nobility, the landed one, and the civic one. The former was the nobility brought by Germanic invaders, so the new lite, the latter is the aboriginal nobility from the decurional institution of Roman municipia. Well, if we rely only on the names of the nobles of the Middle Ages from that part of Italy, then, we will say without any doubt that the landed nobility was composed by Latin and/or Italic aboriginal dudes, and that civic nobility was composed by Germanic invaders. Indeed, thanks to a rich documental sources, we are able to know a lot of genealogies of many families: I studied the phenomenon, and I saw that noble families of Germanic origins gave their sons latin and byblical names for 70% (e.g.: Johannes, Balthazar/Balzar/Balzarius, Petrus, Laurentius, etc...). On the contrary, many civic nobles gave their sons Germanic names, even if their origins are cleared as local (e.g.: Beltraminus, Bernardus, Lanfranchus, Odo, Ubertus, Sigismundus, etc...). When it comes to names, fashion is the rule, not ethnicity: civic nobles adopted the fashion to copy the original names of landed nobility... and the landed nobility wanted the names they read on the product of the more advanced Roman civilization.

ihype02
22-10-17, 19:00
Interesting.

firetown
22-10-17, 21:03
There is no denying the evidence, the paternal origin of the Egyptian pharaohs is Iberian. It is good that one would like genetics, but is very bad form to use only interested. http://www.bajaryoutube.com/videos/king-tut-unwrapped-king-tuts-dna-r1b-royal-blood-bytid-bNmZQJsRjrc.html (http://www.bajaryoutube.com/videos/king-tut-unwrapped-king-tuts-dna-r1b-royal-blood-bytid-bNmZQJsRjrc.html) It is hiding the truth, the position of Egypt I think children in many countries have had foreign kings, nothing happens Egypt, tells the truth goes the world!, Oh my God! some can not handle the truth. Iberian as in...? Basque? Catalan? Sorry, but there is nothing on your link.

Leka
22-10-17, 22:30
Wow, what brought back this blast from the past?

The last I heard is that the screen shot could have been just a demo. Until the samples are tested by a few labs around the world we're just speculating.

If he was R1b I would think V-88 would be a much better bet, but who knows? I do, however, find it a bit suspicious that Hawass refused to release the results for Tut, but released the ones for Ramesses III.

If the Hyksos of the Fifteenth Dynasty did carry some forms of R1b, why isn't it possible that they sired some descendants who moved up the ranks and eventually emerged as Pharaohs in a later dynasty? That happened a lot in Egypt. Ramesses I, the founder of the great 19th dynasty, was just a military commander, actually born near the Hyksos capital, and rose to be Pharaoh. Who knows what ydna he carried? We can be sure, however, that all these people were probably autosomally Egyptian; just look at their sculptures.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_I

Or, look at Somerled. Isn't the consensus that he was R1a? Yet he's the great "Celtic" hero against the Norse. The real world is messy and complicated in terms of genetics. People in the past didn't identify with their yDna. Well, most people today don't identify with it either. :) They identify with their culture. The Norse people could have been moving into the area for quite a while. People mate, and not always in the culturally permitted or "legal" ways. Things happen. Look at the mess in the English medieval royal lines. Lots of changes in yDna. Which is the "legitimate" one?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerled

Anyway, by the 20th dynasty Ramses III was ydna "E1a". Things change.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_haplogroups_of_historic_people#Tutankhamun

According to IGenea (https://www.igenea.com/en/tutankhamun) he is M269+, so if I had to guess probably somewhere under L23 (L584 & L277) or even PF7562.

Angela
22-10-17, 22:34
According to IGenea (https://www.igenea.com/en/tutankhamun) he is M269+, so if I had to guess probably somewhere under L23 (L584 & L277) or even PF7562.

That's based on a captured screenshot from a video presentation (the screenshot and the ydna were never mentioned in the presentation), and there's no way of knowing if that was supposed to be his dna or that of some researcher used for explanation purposes. The person who first published that fact admitted that's what how he got the data from which he extrapolated the y lineage.

Leka
22-10-17, 22:46
That's based on a captured screenshot from a video presentation (the screenshot and the ydna were never mentioned in the presentation), and there's no way of knowing if that was supposed to be his dna or that of some researcher used for explanation purposes. The person who first published that fact admitted that's what how he got the data from which he extrapolated the y lineage.
I see, I assumed that IGenea wouldn't list his results and advertise them if they weren't his (really odd).

Angela
22-10-17, 22:54
I see, I assumed that IGenea wouldn't list lists his results and advertise them if they weren't his (really odd).

No one can know if they're his results or not, Leka, because Hawass has never released the official results or confirmed the applicability of that screen shot. You're not doing anything wrong; it's irresponsible of Ignea to list the result without it having been officially released, imo. Just more dishonest advertising. They're also constantly promising more than they can deliver, and not explaining sufficiently what the results mean. Here in the U.S. they play stupid ads of people throwing away their kilts for lederhosen! It's just absolutely asinine.

O Neill
22-10-17, 22:58
Its back from the past and you've just scratched the surface.
hyksos were around at the start of egyptian dynastys i bet.
Noah, Abraham, Moses, David an Solomon were all pharoahs.
see they was in the habbit of getting thrown out of everywhere
they went because they liked the 1 god idea and incest.
Another member was king Izates Bar Monabaz = King Jesus.
Josephus hid them away for 2000 years.
If ever a bloke had the means to populate coastal western europe
5000 years ago, my moneys on a pharoah.

ihype02
28-10-17, 09:54
I don't understand why don't scientists make a proper study instead of seeing the same restless maps showing the genetic relationship between European countries.
Take some 20-30 ancient mummies per period (Early Dynastic, Old Kingdom, New Kingdom, Alexandrian etc, http://www.history.com/topics/ancient-history/ancient-egypt ) read the Y-Haplogroup through ancient DNA and elaborate more on their history through genetics.

Angela
28-10-17, 17:53
Its back from the past and you've just scratched the surface.
hyksos were around at the start of egyptian dynastys i bet.
Noah, Abraham, Moses, David an Solomon were all pharoahs.
see they was in the habbit of getting thrown out of everywhere
they went because they liked the 1 god idea and incest.
Another member was king Izates Bar Monabaz = King Jesus.
Josephus hid them away for 2000 years.
If ever a bloke had the means to populate coastal western europe
5000 years ago, my moneys on a pharoah.

This is all absolute nonsense.

IronSide
28-10-17, 19:40
Its back from the past and you've just scratched the surface.
hyksos were around at the start of egyptian dynastys i bet.
Noah, Abraham, Moses, David an Solomon were all pharoahs.
see they was in the habbit of getting thrown out of everywhere
they went because they liked the 1 god idea and incest.
Another member was king Izates Bar Monabaz = King Jesus.
Josephus hid them away for 2000 years.
If ever a bloke had the means to populate coastal western europe
5000 years ago, my moneys on a pharoah.

it is amazing how much nonsense can condense itself in one post like that hahahahhaaahha.

davef
28-10-17, 20:03
Its back from the past and you've just scratched the surface.
hyksos were around at the start of egyptian dynastys i bet.
Noah, Abraham, Moses, David an Solomon were all pharoahs.
see they was in the habbit of getting thrown out of everywhere
they went because they liked the 1 god idea and incest.
Another member was king Izates Bar Monabaz = King Jesus.
Josephus hid them away for 2000 years.
If ever a bloke had the means to populate coastal western europe
5000 years ago, my moneys on a pharoah.
Based on a recent study, the ancient Egyptians were genetically Middle Eastern and closest to modern Egyptians, Levantines, and Arabians.

Norvila
21-01-18, 19:38
This article states multiple races could have blonde or red hair, pale skin and light eyes
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/looks.shtml
Please note South East Baltic were there is a max of these features has sharp increase of archeological artifacts dating 1-2c AC. Scandinavia with UK had big impact of the Migration period that followed with Vendel.

Angela
21-01-18, 19:47
This article states multiple races could have blonde or red hair, pale skin and light eyes
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/looks.shtml
Please note South East Baltic were there is a max of these features has sharp increase of archeological artifacts dating 1-2c AC. Scandinavia with UK had big impact of the Migration period that followed with Vendel.

Enough with spamming multiple threads with posts about your obsession with blonde hair and blue eyes. If you continue you're going to get more and more infractions.

Get a life.

Angela
21-01-18, 19:50
This article states multiple races could have blonde or red hair, pale skin and light eyes
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/looks.shtml
Please note South East Baltic were there is a max of these features has sharp increase of archeological artifacts dating 1-2c AC. Scandinavia with UK had big impact of the Migration period that followed with Vendel.

Enough with spamming multiple threads with posts about your obsession with blonde hair and blue eyes. If you continue you're going to get an infraction and the posts will be removed as spam. Got it?

Get a life.

miamelano
30-09-20, 13:09
The root of
the Tut Y-haplogroup is:

The question is: are those of
Tut the pherograms in the video?
If yes, then
R1b is Tut.
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miamelano
05-10-20, 13:27
I wouldn't be
surprised by this.
The IMO Discovery Channel
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