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willy
29-03-10, 14:59
why mutations occur when there is a migration of the original group
(R1b1b2) M269, L23, L51, L52, L49, P310 -----> migration ------> P312 and U106 ? or this is wrong ?

Maciamo
30-03-10, 11:22
Mutations don't occur with migrations. Mutations happen in everybody. Each new child born has a few new mutations compared to his parents, including in Y-DNA. Some migrations can cause a particular mutation to become dominant due to the founder effect - namely that a small founding population grows quickly and spread a common ancestral mutation. But in most cases that mutation already existed prior to the migration, and was sometime already found in thousands of men. That was probably the case with P312 and its subclades L21 and U152 when the Indo-Europeans moved to central and western Europe.

willy
31-03-10, 02:22
That was probably the case with P312 and its subclades L21 and U152 when the Indo-Europeans moved to central and western Europe.

new research is not agree with that theory they were farmers during the neolithic

Maciamo
31-03-10, 10:13
new research is not agree with that theory they were farmers during the neolithic

You have repeated it countless times on this forum, and I am telling you again that the Balaresque study is wrong. Actually Balaresque et al. only wanted to show that R1b was not of Paleolithic European origin, as everybody thought only 2 years ago. Studies take time to be published. Their research probably originated over 1 year ago, when it only became apparent that R1b subclades were older in the east than in the west, and therefore that R1b could not have originated in western Europe.

Since then people like me have noticed that R1b followed R1a in places settled by the Indo-Europeans from Siberia to South Asia. Recent calculations based on the latest STR from R1b projects like those at FTDNA have given coalescence dates for P312 and its subclades that are far too young to be of Neolithic origin. I had to revise in depth the history of the European Neolithic and Bronze Age, and that of the Indo-European migrations. Only after perusing through many books and comparing the latest coalescence times did I come to the conclusion that the European R1b1b2a was almost certainly of Indo-European origin.

Balaresque et al. did not do such a thorough work of research. Their aim was simply to deny a Paleolithic origin, not to prove a Neolithic one. You should only read that European R1b1b2 cannot be older than Neolithic (but possibly more recent).

The issue that remains highly divisive is where the Indo-Europeans came from. Some say Anatolia or Armenia, others say the Pontic steppes, others the Balkans, and others still Central or South Asia. I do not have the answer, but the most likely scenario is a merger of R1b population from northern Anatolia/Armenia with the R1a herders from the Pontic steppes, with a merging point around the North Caucasus and north-east of the Black Sea (lower Don and Kuban region). I have explained everything here (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#R1b). It's long, but yet it is very condensed and you might understand things better by reading first The Horse, The Wheel, and Language (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0691058873?ie=UTF8&tag=eupedia-21&link_code=as3&camp=2506&creative=9298&creativeASIN=0691058873) by David Anthony. Nothing in his book contradicts my theory.

willy
31-03-10, 13:14
The researchers inferred that R1b1b2 originated in Anatolia and spread rapidly into Europe with the spread of agriculture.

Linking prehistoric archaeological remains with the development of language, David Anthony identifies the prehistoric peoples of central Eurasia's steppe grasslands as the original speakers of Proto-Indo-European, and shows how their innovative use of the ox wagon, horseback riding, and the warrior's chariot turned the Eurasian steppes into a thriving transcontinental corridor of communication, commerce, and cultural exchange. He explains how they spread their traditions and gave rise to important advances in copper mining, warfare, and patron-client political institutions, thereby ushering in an era of vibrant social change. Anthony also describes his fascinating discovery of how the wear from bits on ancient horse teeth reveals the origins of horseback riding.

They spread their traditions on R1b1b2 !

secherbernard
31-03-10, 14:11
The researchers inferred that R1b1b2 originated in Anatolia and spread rapidly into Europe with the spread of agriculture.

Linking prehistoric archaeological remains with the development of language, David Anthony identifies the prehistoric peoples of central Eurasia's steppe grasslands as the original speakers of Proto-Indo-European, and shows how their innovative use of the ox wagon, horseback riding, and the warrior's chariot turned the Eurasian steppes into a thriving transcontinental corridor of communication, commerce, and cultural exchange. He explains how they spread their traditions and gave rise to important advances in copper mining, warfare, and patron-client political institutions, thereby ushering in an era of vibrant social change. Anthony also describes his fascinating discovery of how the wear from bits on ancient horse teeth reveals the origins of horseback riding.

They spread their traditions on R1b1b2 !
The problem Willy is that you have not read the Anthony's book. You just copy what you told here from an internet web page. Many of your posts on this forum and on an other (french dna-forums) show that you don't understand what you read and even what you write... Willy stop to get information only from the web, but read books: it will be better for you...

PS: your Y-DNA haplogroup is not R1a but G2a3. Why dou you give wrong informations ?

rms2
31-03-10, 15:17
Perhaps Willy could explain why there are no centum-IE-speaking populations in which R1a is predominant. By far, in most of them, R1b is predominant. And most scholars agree that centum Indo-European is the older form.

So, how did the oldest forms of IE language and culture spread to the farthest reaches of Western Europe without bringing many R1as with them, if R1a is uniquely Indo-European?

If he brings up the Basques, a small minority, what about all the R1as who speak non-IE languages?

willy
31-03-10, 21:43
Perhaps Willy could explain why there are no centum-IE-speaking populations in which R1a is predominant. By far, in most of them, R1b is predominant. And most scholars agree that centum Indo-European is the older form.

So, how did the oldest forms of IE language and culture spread to the farthest reaches of Western Europe without bringing many R1as with them, if R1a is uniquely Indo-European?

If he brings up the Basques, a small minority, what about all the R1as who speak non-IE languages?

We have only one point of view : the Marija Gimbutas 's ideolgy so where in JP Mallory 's books can you read : R1b1b2 = Gimbutas's Indo europeans ideology ? give me just one Mallory 's single reference R1b1b2 ? please stop crazy speculations about I.E I have never seen that. Make science not esoterism believe me man :good_job:

" We test two theories of Indo-European origin: the 'Kurgan expansion' and the 'Anatolian farming' hypotheses. The Kurgan theory centres on possible archaeological evidence for an expansion into Europe and the Near East by Kurgan horsemen beginning in the sixth millennium BP7, 8. In contrast, the Anatolian theory claims that Indo-European languages expanded with the spread of agriculture from Anatolia around 8,000–9,500 years BP9. In striking agreement with the Anatolian hypothesis, our analysis of a matrix of 87 languages with 2,449 lexical items produced an estimated age range for the initial Indo-European divergence of between 7,800 and 9,800 years BP. These results were robust to changes in coding procedures, calibration points, rooting of the trees and priors in the bayesian analysis. " R1b1b2 match to the Indo-European Anatolian farming origin.

take a look become smart :petrified: http://dienekes.50webs.com/arp/articles/ieorigins/ (http://dienekes.50webs.com/arp/articles/ieorigins/)

willy
01-04-10, 02:06
The problem Willy is that you have not read the Anthony's book. You just copy what you told here from an internet web page. Many of your posts on this forum and on an other (french dna-forums) show that you don't understand what you read and even what you write... Willy stop to get information only from the web, but read books: it will be better for you...

PS: your Y-DNA haplogroup is not R1a but G2a3. Why dou you give wrong informations ?

I am free to say what I think we are not in a Soviet system I have no lessons to receive from the KGB are you communist man ? do you know what freedom means you want me to close my mouth ? that's a Soviet dictatorship get your head out of your ass!

secherbernard
01-04-10, 09:18
I am free to say what I think we are not in a Soviet system I have no lessons to receive from the KGB are you communist man ? do you know what freedom means you want me to close my mouth ? that's a Soviet dictatorship get your head out of your ass!
I am free also to say what I think. Your last answer shows you are a poor man.

willy
01-04-10, 13:06
I am free also to say what I think. Your last answer shows you are a poor man.
you're free to talk shit for sure professor