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edao
26-04-10, 19:17
With Greece accepting a bail out, is this mearly buying the Euro time.

Is it better for every one to release Greece from the Euro?

Michael Folkesson
26-04-10, 19:51
No, I don't think so. Kicking Greece out would be stating and making a precedence that any Union country can be kicked out. Greece would have to withdraw, but either way you look at it, it would be a failure of the currency union and the Union. We clean up the mess and reform the economic policies of the Union and necessary institutions. The states will have to give up some economic sovereignty here.

This can't be allowed to happen again and the honor system clearly doesn't work. But in a way I think the Greek problem is somewhat exaggerated, or misplaced. The Greek economy is very small in the EU. I believe the problem is the effect it has on the Union project and the Euro. It's a bigger picture and it has to do with the credibility of the currency and the Union overall. We have to reform and we need to give up economic sovereignty for it too work. It all puts the Union in a difficult position but a situation we would have encountered sooner or later anyway.

If nothing is done, something like this or of a similar magnitude would happen again that would damage the perceived viability of the project.

Clean up, slap some faces and reform. The last one will be very difficult.

LeBrok
27-04-10, 01:13
Maybe there should be consequences for cooking accounting books and keeping country in financial mess. That's a serious breach of trust and confidence for the whole EU. Kicking out a member for mentioned sins should be an option.
The worse part is that most of Greeks don't understand seriousness of their county's financial situation and protest against any sacrifices. At least this is what I'm getting from watching BBC news about Greece.
I like the country, I like the people, but I'm for some discipline, and I hate any kind of mess.

Sprinkles
27-04-10, 01:44
Portugal, Spain, Italy, are next. Good bye Eurozone. Britain is toast. Good bye EU.

Wilhelm
27-04-10, 01:52
Portugal, Spain, Italy, are next. Good bye Eurozone. Britain is toast. Good bye EU.
Wait a minute...WHat have Italy, Portugal or Spain anything to do with this ?

^ lynx ^
27-04-10, 01:55
Yes Sprinkes, apocalipsis is coming... :laughing:

Maciamo
27-04-10, 09:21
The EU is now in a position to tell Greece how to run its economy. It's always delicate to lecture a sovereign state on on to run their affairs. Once you save them from bankruptcy you own the right to tell people how to use the money you give them and change what you don't like.

The financial crisis was a boon for the EU. It got the Irish to accept the Lisbon Treaty, Iceland to join the EU, and Greece to reform its legislative system and liberalise its economy.

There has never been serious plans to kick Greece out of the Euro-zone. If they wanted Greece out there would have been no rescue plan. On the contrary this is a perfect opportunity to strengthen the Greek economy and public finances and make the euro stronger or more stable in the long run.

Gwyllgi
27-04-10, 09:29
A whole lot of the problems in Greece are as a result of possibly deliberately targeted lines of credit from US sources with the intent of Greece being the Trojan Horse of the Eurozone.

The EU is seen with alarm by the US, especially the Eurozone, because a stable and solid Euro would make a very good replacement for a massively exploited and hugely overvalued dollar as the petro-currency of the world.

Greece has been stupid and greedy and dishonest. In my opinion Greece should not be ejected from the Eurozone, that let's the Greeks off too easily. Instead Greece should now face years of austerity while they repay what they have spent and squandered.

It won't be nice for them and it won't be easy but like with a credit card, enjoy the spending but don't think you can escape the bills. Just a shame the population didn't realise what the government was delivering was on the national credit card.

The UK faces the same, it's just that Brwon's been taking out new credit cards for years to pay the bills on the ones he's already run up to their limit.

It's going to be fun after the General Election in the UK.

Not.

A ke bono kane kotto
27-04-10, 09:42
A whole lot of the problems in Greece are as a result of possibly deliberately targeted lines of credit from US sources with the intent of Greece being the Trojan Horse of the Eurozone.

A Trojan horse for what ? Do they want to find the secret behind the euro ?


The EU is seen with alarm by the US, especially the Eurozone, because a stable and solid Euro would make a very good replacement for a massively exploited and hugely overvalued dollar as the petro-currency of the world.

The dollar is overvalued ? It's never been so low for so long !


Greece has been stupid and greedy and dishonest. In my opinion Greece should not be ejected from the Eurozone, that let's the Greeks off too easily. Instead Greece should now face years of austerity while they repay what they have spent and squandered.

It won't be nice for them and it won't be easy but like with a credit card, enjoy the spending but don't think you can escape the bills. Just a shame the population didn't realise what the government was delivering was on the national credit card.

Japan's public debt nears 200% of GDP. Nobody is saying Japan is bankrupt. Why ?

Gwyllgi
27-04-10, 11:49
A Trojan horse for what ? Do they want to find the secret behind the euro ?
No, think back to the legend of the first Trojan Horse. The intent then was not to see what was in Troy, it was to break into and destroy Troy.
So today it would make perfect sense to break into the Eurozone in order to destroy the Euro from inside.


The dollar is overvalued ? It's never been so low for so long !
But it is still massively overvalued based on where it should be if it were not the universal petrocurrency, a thing that more than any other has kept it as the reserve currency of first choice.

Think about it. If you could only buy petroleum products with clam shells from a certain beach and I owned that beach then my clam shells would be worth infinitely more than their value as a source of calcium and silicon, their intrinsic value.

So it is with the US Dollar. The huge amount of US debt, currently standing at around thirteen and a half trillion Dollars mid 2009 based on their value of the Dollar against the rest of the world currencies, and since then the debt has increased continually vastly exceeds the intrinsic value of the US Dollar based on the US trading position in the worlds markets.

So consider how the US could repay that now well in excess thirteen and a half trillion Dollars based on its balance of trade and you will see just why the US Dollar is so grossly overvalued if it were NOT to be backed up by its use as the currency-by-proxy that comes about due to the Petrocurrency situation.


Japan's public debt nears 200% of GDP. Nobody is saying Japan is bankrupt. Why ?

The word you should use isn’t bankrupt, it’s insolvent and that’s not just semantics. A person, business, or nation is insolvent when they are continuing to spend more than they can earn. Bankruptcy comes about when the demands for repayment can not be met.

Japan isn’t insolvent, there’s no pressure on Japan to pay any unpayable bills. In the case of Greece there is.

A number of Greek government issued Bonds are coming up for redemption, but there’s no money within the Greek treasury to pay for them.

That money has been borrowed and used to deliver a lifestyle and a society that costs far more than can be earned by Greece. The piper has played, now he must be paid.

THAT is why Greece should be kept within the Eurozone. Make the Greeks pay for what they’ve had.

Another reason is that the Eurozone should be kept intact and kicking Greece out will only result in an attack on the next weakest nation and all as a part of a strategy to undermine the Petrodollar.

To the great finance houses in the US the sums involved are big but not huge, at least not in comparison to the potential losses if the Petrodollar eventually is replaced with some other instrument and the Euro is in a prime position to be just that. Some oil producing nations already will deal directly in Euro's for their oil..

The attacks on our Euro is the fiscal attack.

The incursion into our nation states with “defense shield” weapons are a political attack to weaken us militarily and make us a target-by-proxy for anyone intending an attack on the US.

And the involvement in our politics is an attack on the minds and hearts of our various electorates by propaganda and exploitation of the inevitable xenophobia that still exists within our EU.

There is in all likelihood one hell of a lot more involved in the undermining of the Greeks than just a bit of “cooking of books”.

A very great deal more.

edao
28-04-10, 11:07
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8648029.stm

Cambrius (The Red)
28-04-10, 14:06
The big problem is that Greece has no credibility left after cooking the books to enter the Eurozone and relying on financial alchemy to create the impression that its debt figures were substantially lower than they actually were. The Greek government is primarily to blame for this unprecedented fiasco, but what were the watchdogs in Brussels doing when all these unscrupulous machinations were taking place in Athens?

Maciamo
29-04-10, 09:28
The big problem is that Greece has no credibility left after cooking the books to enter the Eurozone and relying on financial alchemy to create the impression that its debt figures were substantially lower than they actually were. The Greek government is primarily to blame for this unprecedented fiasco, but what were the watchdogs in Brussels doing when all these unscrupulous machinations were taking place in Athens?

Don't overestimate the current means of the EU to supervise what's happening in member states. The EU budget is tiny compared to the US. Yet the American government wasn't able to prevent the credit crunch or to prevent one of its biggest bank, Goldman Sachs, from cheating everyone and helping Greece cook its books.

Marianne
29-04-10, 09:41
...
The worse part is that most of Greeks don't understand seriousness of their county's financial situation and protest against any sacrifices. At least this is what I'm getting from watching BBC news about Greece...
Greeks are protesting because Greeks (the people) didn't cause the problem. The problem was caused by greedy politicians and now the people must pay for their mess. No one from the current government is trying to find out who were the ones that created this mess to punish them and the financial plan they proposed to get the country out of the crisis includes salary reduction only in middle and lower class without any increase in taxes for the upper class and politicians.

And yes I know people voted for those politicians in the past (the ones who did all that) but you never know it in advance right? The people are the last to be informed in such situations and they were only informed now...

The way I see their "solution" to the problem is similar to wearing glasses instead of doing laser surgery. Wearing glasses only covers the problem temporarily but it doesn't solve it.

As for the question of the thread, if Greece gets kicked out of EU it will only show to the markets how weak the EU is and it will have a negative effect on euro. EU should help Greece and later on Portugal, Spain and Ireland (the PIGS as they call us when they refer to weak economies) solve their financial problems if we want to have a future as a union.
After all no one from the EU and especially Germany is giving money to Greece as a present. I don't call it "help" when Germany is borrowing money with 2% interest and demands strict politics against the Greek people just to lent us money with 5-6% interest. I call this stealing your "friends" and try to make huge profit out of their problems.

edao
29-04-10, 09:52
I have read a huge problem for the 'PIGs' (I won't use this again) countries is the huge economic disparity across the EU. In the fact that the best and brightest in countries like Greece are looking at 5 years plus of economic stagnation, meaning less opportunities and lower wages.

If your fresh out of university why would you hang around when your free to move to more prosperous parts of the EU and earn more money. Loosing these kind of people are only going to make the economic situation worse.

Marianne
29-04-10, 10:36
I have read a huge problem for the 'PIGs' (I won't use this again) countries is the huge economic disparity across the EU. In the fact that the best and brightest in countries like Greece are looking at 5 years plus of economic stagnation, meaning less opportunities and lower wages.

If your fresh out of university why would you hang around when your free to move to more prosperous parts of the EU and earn more money. Loosing these kind of people are only going to make the economic situation worse.

I agree with you.

The fact is that many graduates from Greek universities are considering obtaining a master's degree in EU and possibly stay there to work.

I myself am one of them. I've just gotten my degree and I've applied to many EU universities, so you can practically say that I'm already packing my bags... This is also true for many of my friends and classmates... When a master's degree in my field costs around 7000€ in Greek universities and 0-1000€ inside EU I prefer spending a bit more for food and accommodation and obtain one in a country like France, Belgium, Netherlands, Sweden etc...

Here in Greece people say with sadness that "Greece is kicking out it's children" when they refer to bright young people going abroad to study and work because outside the country the opportunities are a lot more and a lot better...

Gwyllgi
29-04-10, 11:59
I’m minded of one of Aesop’s fables, that of The Scorpion and the fox.

A scorpion and a fox meet on the bank of a stream and the
scorpion asks the fox to carry him across on its back. The
fox asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion
says, "Because if I do, I will die too."

The fox is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream,
the scorpion stings the fox. The fox feels the onset of
paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
but has just enough time to gasp "Why?"

Replies the scorpion: "Its my nature..."

So it is with banks. Their job is to make money. The job of politicians is to ensure that they do so in a way that will not harm the society in which they operate.

Because the politicians were gaining huge advantage because of the taxes they could rake in and so deliver what the electorate wanted and so remain in office they simply worked on the basis of Laissez les bon temps roulez on the basis that when the fan was hit they would have retired and someone else would have to sort out any mess.

A sort of variation of “NIMBY”, this time “NIMTO”.

Not In My Term Of Office.

So let’s not be too quick to blame The Banks, or let the politicians put the blame on The Banks when it is the politicians who have failed for hoping that when the scorpion stings the sting can be diverted to sting the scorpion itself.

Cambrius (The Red)
29-04-10, 12:43
Greeks are protesting because Greeks (the people) didn't cause the problem. The problem was caused by greedy politicians and now the people must pay for their mess. No one from the current government is trying to find out who were the ones that created this mess to punish them and the financial plan they proposed to get the country out of the crisis includes salary reduction only in middle and lower class without any increase in taxes for the upper class and politicians.

And yes I know people voted for those politicians in the past (the ones who did all that) but you never know it in advance right? The people are the last to be informed in such situations and they were only informed now...

The way I see their "solution" to the problem is similar to wearing glasses instead of doing laser surgery. Wearing glasses only covers the problem temporarily but it doesn't solve it.

As for the question of the thread, if Greece gets kicked out of EU it will only show to the markets how weak the EU is and it will have a negative effect on euro. EU should help Greece and later on Portugal, Spain and Ireland (the PIGS as they call us when they refer to weak economies) solve their financial problems if we want to have a future as a union.
After all no one from the EU and especially Germany is giving money to Greece as a present. I don't call it "help" when Germany is borrowing money with 2% interest and demands strict politics against the Greek people just to lent us money with 5-6% interest. I call this stealing your "friends" and try to make huge profit out of their problems.

How can Greece not make the higher earners share the pain? Why would the E.U. allow a deficit reduction structure where the lower and middle classes bear the greatest part of the burden?

Marianne
29-04-10, 14:02
How can Greece not make the higher earners share the pain? Why would the E.U. allow a deficit reduction structure where the lower and middle classes bear the greatest part of the burden?

Because among the higher earners are the ones who vote for these laws...

Cambrius (The Red)
29-04-10, 14:29
Because among the higher earners are the ones who vote for these laws...

Some things never change...

LeBrok
30-04-10, 00:11
Because among the higher earners are the ones who vote for these laws...

I feel your pain and despair Marianne, but I can't agree with your solutions.
First of all, there is not enough rich Greeks and if you even taxed them 100% you wouldn't make a dent in Greece deficit and debt.
Secondly, they already pay biggest taxes like in every country. If you tax them much more they will leave the country with a big lose to Greece. Keep in mind that generally speaking they are the smartest, most educated, best business people, great investors, etc. If you scare these people away Greece will be in even bigger sh*t. I'm pretty sure most of them have a second house already somewhere in Europe and they speak languages. I guess all they need is a little push.

Here is a solution. Reform your economy and open country for business. Make the big capital come to town, invest, double and triple GDP. If you increase GDP 3 fold in next 10 years, your debt level becomes half of GDP, manageable and easy to pay. Also you'll have more money for education, better universities, attract students from abroad (reverse the current trend) and increase intelligentsia and business elite in Greece, this will spur farther GDP growth, and this....etc

Even though, it was shown again and again, how economic growth can do miracles in any country, it's not being duplicated too often. Almost every government has to try it's own model, because they all special and so different, and smartest.
Now we'll have Papandreou model. And the communists protesting in the streets are even farther away from the realism. I'm pretty sure, most of it is an education problem, they don't freakin know how economy works, with heads floating in Utopian and selfish world, me, me, me! I had same problem with my kids after high school. Took me few year and they grown up somewhat to understand better how things are. Schooling system in Canada and probably all around the world is filled by socialistically oriented teachers, and off course it's all fortify by the strongest Unions.

Marianne
30-04-10, 09:17
I totally agree with your post LeBrok.

The difference is that I wasn't talking about the rich who pay their taxes normally (those are the minority).

The problem in Greece is that the majority of the rich aren't paying the taxes they should. For example, doctors who have their own office: when people go to the doctor, they pay 50-100euros per visit (depending on the doctor, the area etc), but the doctor doesn't give them receipts. That means he doesn't pay taxes. Recently it was revealed that there are tons of doctors in Greece who get more than 100.000 euros per year and they are paying 0 taxes because their income is less than 10.000, some of them were even getting money from the state because their income is so low!!!(because they don't give receipts).

The same applies for lawyers, accountants etc. These people make fortunes every year and the average people, middle and lower class who are paying all their taxes the way they should, are now called to sacrifice their small income to get the country out of the crisis...

Gwyllgi
30-04-10, 09:39
The bottom line is that a nation is like a family.

A family can only live to a standard consistent with the earning capacity of that family. It may be that the family live in a village in which some families that earn a great deal contribute to assist other families who can’t get by.

But there comes a point when if that family who are poor try to live beyond what they can afford based on their earning capacity plus the charity from others and try to “con” the rest then things have to be brought back into line.

In the case of Greece the family have not only been living way beyond that level that they can afford, but in addition the head of the family (the government) has taken out “credit cards” without telling anyone just to make himself popular with the rest of his tribe and live a better life than is justified by their earning plus charity capacity.

Now the bills are coming in and the whole family must cut back and they don’t like it, and are in effect demanding that their charitable gifts be increased to cover their (fraudulent) profligacy.

Well basically tough. The family must now put up and shut up because they’ve brought shame on the whole village.

Funny how it is that when you reduce the macro closer to the micro so many complex things have simple solutions. In this case,:” Hey, Greece, it’s payback time. Live with it”.

And think yourselves dammned lucky we don’t evict you from the village.

Maciamo
30-04-10, 10:59
How can Greece not make the higher earners share the pain? Why would the E.U. allow a deficit reduction structure where the lower and middle classes bear the greatest part of the burden?

Higher earners are more mobile. In any country when trouble arise those with good qualifications and speaking several languages can always seek employment elsewhere. When one only speaks the local language and has nothing special to offer to foreign companies, they have little choice by stay at home.

Maciamo
30-04-10, 11:07
The problem in Greece is that the majority of the rich aren't paying the taxes they should. For example, doctors who have their own office: when people go to the doctor, they pay 50-100euros per visit (depending on the doctor, the area etc),

50 to 100 euro per consultation ? I suppose that's only for famous specialists. Here in Belgium a visit to a GP is 22 euro. For a specialist doctor, it ranges from 40 to 70 euro. It strange that it should be more in Greece, where the salaries are lower.


but the doctor doesn't give them receipts. That means he doesn't pay taxes. Recently it was revealed that there are tons of doctors in Greece who get more than 100.000 euros per year and they are paying 0 taxes because their income is less than 10.000, some of them were even getting money from the state because their income is so low!!!(because they don't give receipts).

How are patients reimbursed by their health insurance if doctors don't give receipts ? I don't know anybody here who would pay without a receipt.

Marianne
30-04-10, 13:19
50 to 100 euro per consultation ? I suppose that only for famous specialists.

Not really. The really specialist ones are getting payed around 100 but the average doctor gets 40-60 euros per visit. Then it depends on the area you live at, if you live at a high class area you pay more even if the doctor is not a specialist. For example in a low class area in Athens you might pay 40-50 euros for a dermatologist whereas where I live I pay 80 euros.



It strange that it should be more in Greece, where the salaries are lower.


The cost of living in Greece is outrageous while salaries are lower than many countries in EU. Journalists often compare prices in Greek markets with prices in French, Italian, German and Spanish ones and we are always the most expensive, sometimes twice more expensive than the others.



How are patients reimbursed by their health insurance if doctors don't give receipts ? I don't know anybody here who would pay without a receipt.

If you ask for a receipt you pay more. For example my eye doctor charges 50 euros without receipt and 70 with receipt. If you go to a private doctor the reimbursement you get from the health insurance isn't much. If you want to be treated completely for free you must go to the public hospitals but there you must wait around a month for an appointment.

Cambrius (The Red)
30-04-10, 14:05
The Greece mess did not just spring up overnight. Something is obviously terribly out of balance with the Greek socio-economic equation, and this has been the case for some time. Things such as endemic corruption, tax evasion and poor fiscal management are significant problems that have hurt Greece in a major way. Ultimately, this can all be reduced to social and cultural issues and, more importantly, a habitus comprised of inclinations, preferences and sentiments formed through behaviors of avoidance and paths of least resistance.

Greece is certainly not the only country in Europe where serious destructive practices are taking place day in and day out. "We have seen the enemy and it us."

Marianne
30-04-10, 16:02
The Greece mess did not just spring up overnight. Something is obviously terribly out of balance with the Greek socio-economic equation, and this has been the case for some time. Things such as endemic corruption, tax evasion and poor fiscal management are significant problems that have hurt Greece in a major way...

This is why I said before that reducing salaries of middle/lower class won't solve the problem. It's just a temporary "patch" to get money fast so we don't go bankrupt. The root of the problem is lying on tax evasion, corrupted politicians, under-the-table deals etc and the current government is doing almost nothing to fix this.

You can't reduce people's salaries indefinitely to cover up the problem. You need to solve the problem itself.

Scandals like the "Siemens Scandal" in Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Siemens_alleged_scandal_in_Greece) have cost millions of euros to the Greek tax payers, but as you can read in the link no one was charged and of course no one has gone to jail. The same applies for other similar cases and who knows how many other scandals haven't been revealed yet... It might seem weird to someone from the outside why Greek people are protesting about the situation but how long can someone stand paying for the mistakes of others?

Would you accept making sacrifices for nothing while a few steal billions of euros off you, off your country? People in the streets demand justice for the previous scandals, reassurance that such things won't happen again and proof that their sacrifices won't vanish into thin air.

No matter what the communist party is saying, if people were sure that things will become better no one would complain about the new measurements.

Gwyllgi
30-04-10, 17:05
The root of the problem is that Greek people are living way beyond their earning capacity.

The solution is to reduce the living standard to the level that the Greek people can sustain by their efforts and not rely on taking in loans the repayment of which is beyond them.

It's game over.

Marianne
30-04-10, 17:30
The root of the problem is that Greek people are living way beyond their earning capacity.
The solution is to reduce the living standard to the level that the Greek people can sustain by their efforts and not rely on taking in loans the repayment of which is beyond them.
It's game over.
I don't agree with this.

I read English newspapers everyday, as well as French, German and Dutch ones and I see many unrealistic data posted there, that most of the time are over exaggerated.

Yes it is true that many Greeks use their credit cards a lot but people aren't living la vida loca with money they don't have as they are saying in your news.

What you are saying applies 100% for the state. The Greek government is the one that was spending money it didn't have. Greek politicians used to promise to their voters jobs in public departments and this lead to 1.5million Greeks working for the state, more than what countries with triple the population Greece has. They were spending extreme amounts of money for constructions just to justify their under-the-table deals with private companies, and the list goes on and on...

edao
03-05-10, 10:54
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/05/02/weekinreview/02marsh-image/02marsh-image-custom1.jpg

Effect of Greece crisis on Portugal (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8653696.stm)

Gwyllgi
03-05-10, 12:53
I don't agree with this.

I read English newspapers everyday, as well as French, German and Dutch ones and I see many unrealistic data posted there, that most of the time are over exaggerated.

Yes it is true that many Greeks use their credit cards a lot but people aren't living la vida loca with money they don't have as they are saying in your news.

What you are saying applies 100% for the state. The Greek government is the one that was spending money it didn't have. Greek politicians used to promise to their voters jobs in public departments and this lead to 1.5million Greeks working for the state, more than what countries with triple the population Greece has. They were spending extreme amounts of money for constructions just to justify their under-the-table deals with private companies, and the list goes on and on...

You miss the point. The Greek people as a whole are livinmg beyond the means the country has to make the wealth available to them.

People are being paid too much, they are getting social services they can't afford to fund, the whole nine yards is out of sync between imports and exports.

It's payback time and it's not going to be pretty. Mind you, the UK is going to have to face the same and for the same reasons, it's just serendipity that the basis of our gross overspend isn't yet causing a collapse because money traders continue to lend money with confidence that the uK will borrow yet more to pay the interest on its existing debts.

We live in interesting times.

Maciamo
03-05-10, 13:24
If you ask for a receipt you pay more. For example my eye doctor charges 50 euros without receipt and 70 with receipt. If you go to a private doctor the reimbursement you get from the health insurance isn't much. If you want to be treated completely for free you must go to the public hospitals but there you must wait around a month for an appointment.

How comes nobody denounces these doctors or sue them ?

Maciamo
03-05-10, 13:28
The root of the problem is that Greek people are living way beyond their earning capacity.

Based on Marianne's explanations, the root of the problem is corruption, at every level of society.

Cambrius (The Red)
03-05-10, 13:58
Endemic corruption can be considered as a viral socio-cultural disease. Over time, it turns the organism zombie like or brings an end to its existence.

Marianne
03-05-10, 15:13
Based on Marianne's explanations, the root of the problem is corruption, at every level of society.
It was estimated that corruption costs Greece 8% of it's GDP annually (more than 20 billions)!!! Italy has the same problem and Spain and Portugal less...

To give you an idea, in a country of 11 million people in 2009, only 6 people declared income more than 1 million euros and less than 5000 declared an income of more than 100.000 euros.

Greece's revenue from taxes is around 4.7% of GDP (8% is the average in EU), and shadow economy is estimated to be around 25% of GDP while Spain's and Portugal's is around 20%.

The problem is that these figures of corruption and bribery derive from around 1,4% of the population, so you can understand why most Greeks feel that the plan to get the country out of the crisis is wrong and unfair, as it targets law-abiding citizens...

Shasta
03-05-10, 18:40
I enjoyed this article about Greece this morning so thought to post.

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2010/05/03/greeces-problem-is-high-tax-rates-not-tax-evasion/

Greece’s Problem Is High Tax Rates, Not Tax Evasion

Posted by Daniel J. Mitchell

The New York Times has an article describing widespread tax evasion in Greece, along with an implication that the country’s fiscal crisis is largely the result of unpaid taxes and could be mostly solved if taxpayers were more obedient to the state. This is grossly inaccurate. A quick look at the budget numbers reveals that tax revenues have remained relatively constant in recent years, consuming nearly 40 percent of GDP. The burden of government spending, by contrast, has jumped significantly and now exceeds 50 percent of Greek economic output.

The article also is flawed in assuming that harsher enforcement is the key to compliance. As this video shows, even the economists at the Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development admit that tax evasion is driven by high tax rates (which is remarkable since the OECD is the international bureaucracy pushing for global tax rules to undermine tax competition and reduce fiscal sovereignty).

Ironically, the New York Times article quotes Friedrich Schneider of Johannes Kepler University in Austria, but only to provide an estimate of Greece’s shadow economy. The reporter should have looked at an article that Schneider wrote for the International Monetary Fund, which found that:

Macroeconomic and microeconomic modeling studies based on data for several countries suggest that the major driving forces behind the size and growth of the shadow economy are an increasing burden of tax and social security payments… The bigger the difference between the total cost of labor in the official economy and the after-tax earnings from work, the greater the incentive for employers and employees to avoid this difference and participate in the shadow economy. …Several studies have found strong evidence that the tax regime influences the shadow economy. …In Austria, the burden of direct taxes (including social security payments) has been the biggest influence on the growth of the shadow economy… Other studies show similar results for the Scandinavian countries, Germany, and the United States. In the United States, analysis shows that as the marginal federal personal income tax rate increases by one percentage point, other things being equal, the shadow economy grows by 1.4 percentage points. …A study of Quebec City in Canada shows that people are highly mobile between the official and the shadow economy, and that as net wages in the official economy go up, they work less in the shadow economy. This study also emphasizes that where people perceive the tax rate as too high, an increase in the (marginal) tax rate will lead to a decrease in tax revenue.

It is worth noting the Schneider’s research also shows why Obama’s tax policy is very misguided. The President wants to boost the top tax rate by nearly five percentage points, and that’s on top of the big increase in the tax rate on saving and investment included in Obamacare. Based on Schneider’s research, we can expect America’s underground economy to expand.

Shifting back to Greece, Schneider does not claim that tax rates are the only factor determining compliance. But his research indicates that more onerous enforcement regimes are unlikely to put much of a dent in tax evasion unless accompanied by better tax policy (i.e., lower tax rates). Moreover, compliance also is undermined by the rampant corruption and incompetence of the Greek government, but that problem won’t be solved unless politicians reduce the size and scope of the public sector. Needless to say, that’s not very likely. So when I read some of the details in this excerpt from the New York Times, much of my sympathy is for taxpayers rather than the greedy politicians that turned Greece into a fiscal mess:

In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city, where summer temperatures often hit the high 90s, just 324 residents checked the box on their tax returns admitting that they owned pools. So tax investigators studied satellite photos of the area — a sprawling collection of expensive villas tucked behind tall gates — and came back with a decidedly different number: 16,974 pools. That kind of wholesale lying about assets, and other eye-popping cases that are surfacing in the news media here, points to the staggering breadth of tax dodging that has long been a way of life here. …Such evasion has played a significant role in Greece’s debt crisis, and as the country struggles to get its financial house in order, it is going after tax cheats as never before. …To get more attentive care in the country’s national health system, Greeks routinely pay doctors cash on the side, a practice known as “fakelaki,” Greek for little envelope. And bribing government officials to grease the wheels of bureaucracy is so standard that people know the rates. They say, for instance, that 300 euros, about $400, will get you an emission inspection sticker. …Various studies have concluded that Greece’s shadow economy represented 20 to 30 percent of its gross domestic product. Friedrich Schneider, the chairman of the economics department at Johannes Kepler University of Linz, studies Europe’s shadow economies; he said that Greece’s was at 25 percent last year and estimated that it would rise to 25.2 percent in 2010.

Daniel J. Mitchell • May 3, 2010 @ 8:41 am
Filed under: International Economics and Development; Tax and Budget Policy
Tags: big government, debt, deficit, fiscal crisis, government spending, Greece, imf, oecd, tax avoidance, tax evasion, tax rates

Atzerrian
20-07-10, 01:22
I think the EU should simply collapse. I'm tired of the loss of soverignty that comes with a having a European parliament. I'm tired of one nation having to bail out another nation. The EU is the modern-day USSR.

Cambrius (The Red)
20-07-10, 18:20
The collapse of the EU would lead to the collapse of Europe as a whole, economically and socially. Let's hope the EU endures and thrives.

Atzerrian
20-07-10, 22:23
The collapse of the EU would lead to the collapse of Europe as a whole, economically and socially. Let's hope the EU endures and thrives.

The collapse of the EU may lead to an economic for the Eurozone, but it wouldn't lead to the social collapse of the EU. At this point of time, the European Parliament has too much over the parliaments of its member nations. The Schengen Area makes it easy for drug traffickers to distribute their goods throughout Europe. The EU has gone too far.

moskiter
07-08-10, 03:15
Every currency has weeker and better periods, Euro too. Nonetheless EU should be more thoughtful and secure herself from such lawlessness as it took place in Greece. I am also a follower of an idea of obliging UK, Denmark and Sweden to introduce Euro as well.

Mako
26-08-10, 18:05
No, but it might be kicked out from the Eurozone.

Not all members of the EU are part of the Eurozone. The UK is a major player in the EU, but does not use the Euro as its currency. Greece may be forced to leave the Eurozone if things get worse.

LeBrok
27-08-10, 07:35
The best option for Greece might be to go bankrupt. Wipe out the debt, rebuild and reform economy without crippling interest payments. Surely they would be kicked out of Euro, but it wouldn't be a big price to pay in their situation. In 10-20 years if everything works fine they wouldn't have problem joining Euro again, if they wanted.

Richard Coyle
03-10-10, 15:22
...... At this point of time, the European Parliament has too much over the parliaments of its member nations. ........... makes it easy for drug traffickers to distribute their goods throughout ....... The EU has gone too far.

I don't know if your right here about the EU, but what you write exactly describes the relationship of our own over government in Washington aka "USA", with the member states of our own union. Substitute "USA" for "EU" and you describe the situation here in the USA precisely. In fact, one could even draw an analogy between Greece and California. So should we kick California out of the union. I think not!!!

chris eblana
18-10-10, 16:42
Maybe there should be consequences for cooking accounting books and keeping country in financial mess. That's a serious breach of trust and confidence for the whole EU. Kicking out a member for mentioned sins should be an option.
The worse part is that most of Greeks don't understand seriousness of their county's financial situation and protest against any sacrifices. At least this is what I'm getting from watching BBC news about Greece.
I like the country, I like the people, but I'm for some discipline, and I hate any kind of mess.


the mess is what the western media portray about what is happening in Greece..if they told you exactly what is going on in the country, you would protest too, because it could be you next on the same agenda....

recently Mr Juncker said that european powers knew the misuse by Greece of european funds, but they let the country go bust..according to them greek economy will be transformed after it recovers from the crisis...he also implied that the germans and the french encouraged the procedure...so all is not what it seems...

the bottom line is, people are suffering, while the bankers and the corrupt elite always get away with it, and not just in greece, but all over europe...most of you have accepted the situation...we did fight it, although with no results...nothing can be done...why should the people bail out the mistakes of the bankers and the rich?

we will not be kicked out of the euro, europeans do not want that...in fact Estonia is going to join the eurozone in 2011..that is the answer to all the speculations for the collapse of the euro.....:laughing:

LeBrok
18-10-10, 17:38
Doesn't matte who you want to blame now, or who's fault it really was. The only question is what you're going to do now, and what your options are.
What these public protests are going to achieve now? There is no more money, and on top of it huge interest payments for past excesses.
What do you think Greek government should do to keep populous quiet? Or should they care? What would you do to fix the problem?
Print more money?
Increase taxes for rich?
Make a miracle?

I would guess that now it's time to stand united for Greeks and pull it out from the hole. Some nationalistic sentiment, I'm feeling here, should help the process. ;)

chris eblana
18-10-10, 18:21
Doesn't matte who you want to blame now, or who's fault it really was. The only question is what you're going to do now, and what your options are.
What these public protests are going to achieve now? There is no more money, and on top of it huge interest payments for past excesses.
What do you think Greek government should do to keep populous quiet? Or should they care? What would you do to fix the problem?
Print more money?
Increase taxes for rich?
Make a miracle?

I would guess that now it's time to stand united for Greeks and pull it out from the hole. Some nationalistic sentiment, I'm feeling here, should help the process. ;)

united europeans.....aye...!! a nice dream but in reality...??
tax the rich deffinately....the people can not carry all the weight of the payments of the loans...
the populous can't stay quiet..they are right to be angry...in iceland their prime minister is facing the court for all the mismanagements..why not in greece too? (and ireland,and spain,and italy,and protugal and and and...)...

LeBrok
19-10-10, 01:37
There is obviously something very wrong with our political systems. We should have smarter people at the helm of the countries to understand how economy works and not to do stupid moves that puts all the nations in dismal situation.
Unfortunately taxing rich is not much of the option to get out off the big debt. There are not enough rich around, or corporations to pay for the huge debts. If you tax them too much they simply leave, leaving the country in bigger recession.
At the end populous has to face the harsh reality and pay for the debt. Even though if I don't like this option, that's reality.
That's why I would be voting, if I'm Greek, for bankruptcy, reforms and fresh start. The reforms need to be smart enough to encourage business to invest, make good jobs, and make sure there is no overspending in the future.
Is this feasible? Possibly under some kind of dictatorship if ordinary folks won't cooperate?
What am I talking about? lol

The question that I'm asking myself more often, looking for solution too, is why don't we have smartest and most honest people of us all running our countries?
Obviously we don't have right democratic system to select them and reward them for good work. We have to reinvent democracy so we can find people like that to lead us.......to the bright future. :) How difficult is that?

chris eblana
23-10-10, 15:35
There is obviously something very wrong with our political systems. We should have smarter people at the helm of the countries to understand how economy works and not to do stupid moves that puts all the nations in dismal situation.
Unfortunately taxing rich is not much of the option to get out off the big debt. There are not enough rich around, or corporations to pay for the huge debts. If you tax them too much they simply leave, leaving the country in bigger recession.
At the end populous has to face the harsh reality and pay for the debt. Even though if I don't like this option, that's reality.
That's why I would be voting, if I'm Greek, for bankruptcy, reforms and fresh start. The reforms need to be smart enough to encourage business to invest, make good jobs, and make sure there is no overspending in the future.
Is this feasible? Possibly under some kind of dictatorship if ordinary folks won't cooperate?
What am I talking about? lol

The question that I'm asking myself more often, looking for solution too, is why don't we have smartest and most honest people of us all running our countries?
Obviously we don't have right democratic system to select them and reward them for good work. We have to reinvent democracy so we can find people like that to lead us.......to the bright future. :) How difficult is that?


i agree with you in most things, but why is it the poorest and the ordinary people who must suffer..?? in a post above someone mentioned that the Greeks lived beyond their means...what..?? Greece was one of the most expensive countries in the eurozone, but the salaries of the people were not near as those of ireland, norway, sweden, luxembourg the UK or germany....now they are bringing all the prices even higher, but the wages of the people even lower...how are the people going to survive..??

there is no democracy in the world...some people and nations are forced to be poor, in order others to be very rich....there is no equality, nor fairness....we think we are governed by a democratic system, but in fact we have an oligarchy, established after the WW2...The new world order as they call it...we need to unite first in europe and then the world to get rid off this elite that governs us, unfairly .........

Garrick
08-02-11, 01:47
I think the EU should simply collapse. I'm tired of the loss of soverignty that comes with a having a European parliament. I'm tired of one nation having to bail out another nation. The EU is the modern-day USSR.

Atzerrian
There will be no collapse of Europe, on the contrary I think that in years to come, Europe will become stronger.

Regulus
08-02-11, 04:24
I don't know if your right here about the EU, but what you write exactly describes the relationship of our own over government in Washington aka "USA", with the member states of our own union. Substitute "USA" for "EU" and you describe the situation here in the USA precisely. In fact, one could even draw an analogy between Greece and California. So should we kick California out of the union. I think not!!!

Interesting and quite possibly true.
The system here also makes it difficult for businesses that are not mega-corporations to continue to be profitable. In time, we could see an all-powerful centralized government in an alliance with an effective oligarchy of the biggest corporations.

The trend towards over-regulation seems to be the greatest tool of the big companies. They can find ways to defray and pass on to the consumers the costs associated with it but the middle and small businesses cannot. The government appears to be willing to take on such an enormous amount of debt that an indentured servitude of sorts can be a foregone conclusion for the taxpayer.

Reinaert
08-02-11, 21:40
Don't listen to non Europeans lads.
We'll easily can cope with our own business.

We don't need Americans for that!
They are just stirring the soup here, while they have a bankrupt economy themselves.
What a lousy losers they are!

It's the Monroe doctrine the other way around.
Europe for the Europeans.

Let Americans mind their own business.
AND NOT OURS!

LeBrok
09-02-11, 04:13
Reinaert, nobody likes you here and all will be happy if you leave Europe and this forum. Nobody likes your rude and insulting character. Go back to your cave, this is where you belong anyway.
And yes, I'm European with European passport.

Regulus
09-02-11, 16:57
Don't listen to non Europeans lads.
We'll easily can cope with our own business.

We don't need Americans for that!
They are just stirring the soup here, while they have a bankrupt economy themselves.
What a lousy losers they are!

It's the Monroe doctrine the other way around.
Europe for the Europeans.

Let Americans mind their own business.
AND NOT OURS!


I guess that my question would be "What did I do wrong this time?"

I get in trouble with Reinaert if I defend anything about the US. In my last post here, I am clearly against what is happening in the US and to Reinaert I am still wrong.

Reinaert
10-02-11, 19:10
Two trolls performing their slapstick again.
You both work for the CIA, or some funny farm?

BTW LeBrok, there is no such thing as a European passport... :)

Regulus
10-02-11, 20:11
Two trolls performing their slapstick again.
You both work for the CIA, or some funny farm?

BTW LeBrok, there is no such thing as a European passport... :)


This guy is like the psychotic ex-girlfriend who stalks you everywhere you go.

Reinaert
11-02-11, 20:30
This guy is like the psychotic ex-girlfriend who stalks you everywhere you go.

Cheap Regulus.. Very cheap...:useless:

Regulus
11-02-11, 21:03
Maybe so, perhaps you could provide an alternative comparison for me to use.

LeBrok
12-02-11, 05:51
Oh, you're demanding creativity and logic from him?! You're are going to exhaust and kill the poor, pitiful Reinaert.

edao
13-02-11, 17:23
Greece leaving the Euro would be unlikely as the new Greek currency would depreciate rapidly in relation to the Euro devastating the financial system only making their situation worse. If you had a Euros in Greece you'd quickly move your money, the resulting currency flight would cripple Greece.

Only way a break up of the Euro would work is for Germany or France to leave the Euro as their new currency would rise in value agaisnt the Euro.

iapetoc
22-04-11, 16:58
I don't know

for some reasons it is an advance for Greece to leave Eurozone,

1rst will stop immigration illegal or not

2nd will help to return the borrowing money as material and goods and production, and not as money values,

3rd will make Greek economy to be most flexible as prices and cost will drop.

the only ones will lose from Greek go back to Drachma will be the Germans,

same for Italy spain and Portugal,

High values of Euro works as a break in South Economies,
if Greece leaves Euro but remain in EE in 5 year time Greece will overpass and will start to produce goods that today cost a lot,
so it is a threat to strong economies,

besides if Greece leaves Euro next day 2 000 000 workers and emmigrants will run in EE for work.

the problem in Greece is 1 High production taxes 25%
big governor and public workers >40%
bad politicians the last 30 years

so to solve problem

1 must hung most of politician
2 must send away lots of public workers
3 low taxes in first and second degree of production

instead IMF is driving to opposite site
1 Help politician to say lies
2 cuts off salaries etc
3 raises taxes not only in consuming but also in production

I believe that Greek crisis is well driven model on how handle same situations in Future, so not to hurt strong economies,

I hope Greece return back to Drachmas,
the next day 2 million non Greeks legal and illegal immigrants will run to rest of EU

Reinaert
22-04-11, 18:50
Well, the EU was a fine idea, and it worked quite well, until Britain became a member. They torpedoed a "social paragraph" in the EU guidelines. Dirty Maggy Mae Thatcher, together with Ronald Reaguns started the boost of neo conservative capitalism.

The British economy got in shambles. People took money from the bank to buy shares, and after a while the shares went down and they had to sell their house. The same rigid policy is taken over by the Dutch government.

We have had many years that the Dutch should stay on the same wages, while everything gets more expensive.
To secure a strong euro, and a strong economy. And who profits from that?
Not the people. The banks and big companies.

And they, as a farewell thanks, invest in China now..

Except some good banks, where I invest my money in.
For the benefit of the people, not the bloody capitalists!

Maciamo
26-04-11, 13:37
The euro being so overvalued at the moment, the financial problems of Greece, Portugal and Ireland might actually be good for the euro, by scaring some investors away. Otherwise the euro might go back to levels of 1.6 USD like in 2008.

The best system might be one that uses multiple currencies at the same time within a same country, if not for everything, at least for commerce. It's already the case on many eCommerce websites, where customers are free to choose the currency in which they pay. This way, big exporters wouldn't be disadvantaged by a strong euro (and can always change back their Forex to euro once the euro is cheaper).

Elias2
26-04-11, 13:57
The euro being so overvalued at the moment, the financial problems of Greece, Portugal and Ireland might actually be good for the euro, by scaring some investors away. Otherwise the euro might go back to levels of 1.6 USD like in 2008.

The best system might be one that uses multiple currencies at the same time within a same country, if not for everything, at least for commerce. It's already the case on many eCommerce websites, where customers are free to choose the currency in which they pay. This way, big exporters wouldn't be disadvantaged by a strong euro (and can always change back their Forex to euro once the euro is cheaper).

I think this is true aswell. Some people think this crisis is going to be the end of the EU project (you know who you are! haters! :cool-v:) , but really its probably the biggest test this new system can go through and point out the weaknesses in the currency.

On Greece, it's probably going to default in the next year. Germany might be angry but it saves a decade of hard austarity in greece with no growth.

Riccardo
27-04-11, 14:50
No! It would be the real start of the European failure with all that this concerns...

The real problem are not "P.I.G.S." (I think that this acronym is stupid and offensive)...But how can European states lie to us Europeans trying to show an Union that is everything but an Union?
They should try to think less in a geo-political way...We are a weak continent nowdays and politicians think their own state is a super-power. They should put the basis for a true political Union. That's the only way to the growth.

iapetoc
10-05-11, 15:15
Well the road Back has started,
the last 2-3 days all newspappers say the same,
Greek probably from september is going back to Drachmas,

that is a good point for me,
1 Gives flexibility to Greece to solve problems,
2 as EU since Euro is no longer currency of Greece, will send at least 2-4 000 000 half working immigrants to rest of Europe,

the next I am expecting is to change laws of immigration and unemployment,

and the best is to send (KICK) back the 3 heads of EU commision to salvation, cause instead of solving problem, they push Gov to sell Islands to Big Corp, and even to Turkish businessman

late statistics say that 50% of Greek money is off the Greek Banks,
Greek money is devastating to Bulgaria and Albania,
it is estimated that 300 000 greeks open business in Bulgaria, and work there, while in Greece devastate the last 10 years 2 000 000 Arabs and Pakistans and 1,500 000 of Albanians,
well in September we will either see Euro to jump high, or drop to 1:1 with dollar,
I am proud I am Greek, But I am not proud for Greek Politicians,
They 98 % sting
from 1978 and after they started to de-industrialize Greece, while all projects cost 3-5 times due to black money,
Typical is the case of sub-marines a duel among Greece and Germany economy, as also the siemens scandals in Greece.
And the case of Spanish Bank tolls, which from 2 Euro / 100 km became 11.40 E/100 km.

Greek politicians they vote a law so they never go to prison,
even an Austrian judge try to send a case in court by nothing,
the great stupidity is that make 'search scandal groups' to search , but they mostly hide scandals,
that is the problem if a country has 1 and 1 ruler prime minister, that is for make laws, votes Laws, Execute Law,
personally I believe that Greece must change constitution and gov form to a more rulers than 1,

if a country like north Greece has >25% unemployment, then you, your family, and the whole cousins vote a politician just to find you a work,
ty.

iapetoc
15-05-11, 16:34
well we are not sure about that,

the last news in Greece is different,

seems like central-right of parliament is against of written orders to save economy,
Greeks wants to send the Τροικα (the 3 economical EU managers) back to Brussels
cause they are trying to make Greeks to sell everything they have, very cheap,
the orders that Troika gave seems like are sinking Deeply Greek economy,
and many started to think against the measure,

the other about immigration and locals, seems like a war is on in Athens,
every Day 1 Greek and 1 immigrant is being killed by nationalist motives in Athens,
Greek Goverment is sleeping in Dreams, and ask for more help from EU,
but the last case of Police sending to hospital rioters, and the Burn down of a police station in heart of Athens, is another issue,

Finally Greek state decide to give 200 E and a pair of Shoes to every immigrant wants to go back to his country,

Greek are looking for work elsewhere, and primary in England, Arabia, while Greek Business moved to Bulgaria and Albania,
it is estimated that 300 000 are going to immigrate to Bulgaria next 5 years, making the last the strongest economy in Balkans.

the return to Drachmes and leave Euro is open and much talk about,
But also the case of a strong front against Troika and EU is open in Greece,
For first Time Central-right wing is against EU and Central-Left is supporting EU.
and Neo-Nazi are reaching 6% in Athens, above Communist parties
while in 1990 was 0,01%

either miracles, either unbelievable, either prophetic seems like Big changes are in EU, or ready to start.

fortune Hunters started to arrive, the Fortune hunt has started,
Houses that cost 300 000 E before 3-4 years are now sold for 150 000,
the high taxes make people to sell, cause Greeks started to stop buying goods from market,
paradise of smugglers cause taxes like 15% in food make people to buy illegal with out receipt from market to buy cheap,
with merchants start to say 10 E with receipt 8 E with out,
Greek province is still stable, and resist the crisis, but Athens seems a city deep in anarchy (no order)

and since Touristic era has started, nothing is mentioned,
especially in the provinces of Greeks that are known for Touristic numbers all is Quiet and nothing Happens,
In Fact they drop prizes so to be available to Greeks to make Tourism,
Food is down 10-20 % than last year, rooms 5-15%, only soft drinks are raised by 5% due to taxes,
seems like that biggest industry that remained in Greece, Tourism is not in crisis, but in fact raises, and becomes better.

Besides 1 of the IMF Troika man just arrested in NY for rape attempt in a hotel,
!!!!!!!
so the case of Greek crisis will be still open for long, since 62 years old Dominique Strauss-Kahn is in prison

president of France sarkozi is not afraid of him anymore.

prime minister wants Greece to stay in Eurozone,
while major antipoliteusis (opposition) is preparing for offensive economical policy , by drop taxes lower than 5% in production and market, and try to find laws to put taxes for every imported good especially from Germany.
but the main target, to punish and avoid corrupt politician is still a dream,
so many scandals from 1978 and after, and no one went prison,
the strange in the case is that all ministers or prime ministers from 1981, that control ministry of economy, all finished Harvard university,
Greek prime minister, and Greek major opposites in Fact were room-mates
!!!!!!!!!!!!

iapetoc
16-05-11, 23:35
But he was your best friend...

Germany don't want to pay for Greece, and DSK had always defended you in front of Merkel...

Are you serious?

yes the case of Germany and Finland against Greek depth is another story,

In Greece we know and we quess other reasons,
Greek crisis is because of some Bankers the lend money with x3 or x4 times over than others with bigger depth.

The case of Germany and the Deny was programmed to pass some change in public issues that was accepted with almost no trouble, some economical classes, that had much privileges
the problem was and is corrupted person in places, covered by political parties,
and seems like today only a small % is find, while the situation is the same,
the IMF gave support to Greece cause Greece followed the instructions,
and did not revolt as other places, why? I don't know, But seems Greek society is in Luck of dreamer and modern philosophers,

IMF only check and does not solve problem,
DE FACTO only in my area 13 small corporations just closed and 7 of them moved to Bulgaria (also EU) just because of the taxes in primary production, thhat was raised from 9, 15 to 13-15, 23-25 %
if you put taxes to primary production then you kick all foreign investments, and even your people stop producing but prefer to buy cheap imported,
since IMF gave instructions, as a strange reaction, Greek market started to buy from German cheap markets, !!!!! and import Turkish products and change label, !!!!!!
last winter in Greece that perfect oranges, we ate !!! Turkish, Brazilian Spanish and North African !!!!!
since IMF started to gave instruction all construction industry is stoped due a new law that raises taxes from x2 to x8 according the old,
well it is another thing to cut salaries and another to stop any production sending 000 000 to unemployment.

Indeed German will not want to pay for the Greeks had a reason, cause a German worked until 65 and some Greeks got retirement at 45 (military and police forces).
But that was solved from the Begin,
Greece change laws and is according majority of EU laws today,
But that did not help, still spreads are very high,
then what is Happening,
Simply Portugal was smart and avoid IMF,
But Greece was Dump, and accepted IMF,
(socialist with a Porche, that pays 150 000 for a house while normal Greeks pay 250-300 E rent)
well simply IMF manage to kick away the last industries that did not left in previous times, and manage to make problem from a crisis a Gordian tight, that will last until 2025-2030,
the case of portugal opened eyes in some Greeks and today people, are suspicious that something is Behind,
Angela of Germany told clear in past, SELL SOME OF YOUR ISLANDS,

and IMF instruction although Helps us with some money today, simply puts a bomb in our national lands in 2 ways,

1 is by selling Islands or monuments simply is like selling your heaviest industry,
2 is the case of international laws,
it is written in a thread about Cyprus,

simply Greek crisis started the exact time that Greeks and Cyprus demanded to expand sea-reef boarders to 12 miles than 6 that are today, a case that is Casus Beli for Turkish,

and the abandoned plan of South Stream and Nabuco that will transfer oil and Gas to italy and west Europe,

simply the East Mesogeios (mediteraneo) oil and gas, is in Target.

to make things more easy,
the trouble of today Greece is from 1823, (Cursed English Loan in Greek History since even today Greece pays the revolution)
but the heart of the point is the loan from Goldman-Sucks (or whatever)
that was a hidden loan even from that time Greek major opposite,
with that loan Greece manage to enter Eurozone, but after 10 years money wnted back,
it is the story of an Austrian Judge that tried to send an ex prime minister to trial,
Germans knew about Goldman-Sux (whatever) but they had profits from Greece that time, cause they sell submarines, opened market chains, sell trains and make railway electric, the famous Siemens case, and its Greek branch, But they stay Quiet, since they had profit,
But the case that Greek can drop EU values, made them angry,
and they started to find reasons,
some of them were right as I said above,
but soon they realize what is Behind economy spreads, and want a piece of the cake, and force Greek to sell the rights in Islands or Great monuments, but for what? to build hotels and Bundesbank invest in Tourism? or to set foot in future gas Drill?????
remember that Cyprus and Greece are in Casus Beli with Turkey for that reason Years now,
the famous Grey zones of east Mediteraneo.

find about Ιμια Imia-kardak case before when Greeks and Turks were with finger in trigger.

the theory of moving capitals that started at Cold-war, simply today still exist by some banks in order to take what they want,
capitals could be money, industrial machines, huge % of immigration that can absorb money from central-state plan, etc

well that is what is striking Greece today,

on the other hand, it is a change for Greeks to rearrange their political, constitutional etc believes,
since Greece entered EEC, Maastrich (whatever), Eurozone, Nato, etc with out 1 referendum, but as a new orismos (definition) that is widely spoken in Greece today,
the Parliament-al coup

LeBrok
17-05-11, 07:39
1. Reform political system the way that only smartest and most honest people can be elected to government, and political parties. (Utopia?)

Or.

2. If Greece is lucky a smart dictator will take power, a la Lee Kuan Yew, and make Singapore out of Greece.

Or

3. Implement pro business education in high schools and colleges, shift mentality of Greeks to entrepreneurship form "everybody works for government", expect an improvement in a generation.


Honestly, I wish Greeks the best, but I don't see how they can implement viable changes to lift Greece economy. Unions won't let government reform economy, and politicians are too corrupt and short sighted to invoke trust in society. I think we'll see a bigger and bigger mess till someone, a dictator will take power and will try saving Greece his way. They will be lucky if it is a smart dictator. I would be at least a bit of an optimist if Greece had fairly normal and balanced economy. Unfortunately it's not the case.

If there are no drastic changes, and most likely there won't be, Greece will go deeper and deeper into dept, till no one will lend them money no more, next they will go bankrupt. Therefore it is better for Greece to go bankrupt, leave EU asap, like right now, and better for rest of Europe and other lenders. The only problem is if Greece can use properly this opportunity to get rid of crippling debt and start economic recovery. This will be a great opportunity, but it could be easily waisted by same government and unions.

I wish them the best, but this is my grim scenario for the future.
Greek government will be forced by the lenders, the economic crises, smart economists, to implement reforms. It will be crippled though by strong Unions, longs strikes, civil unrests, culture of entitlements, and other products of socialistic education. Under these circumstances reforms won't give the right results, governments will change quickly, more civil unrests, debt will be unmanageable. Lenders will refuse to give Greece more money, government quits, people will come to streets, big mess and bloodshed. Military will take charge of the country, and dictatorship will begin. It will take about 5 years to get to this point.
Can we say deja vu?

Greece situation can be improved if we have a strong economic recovery in Europe and tourists will show up in big numbers and full pockets. It might prolong the status quo till next recession in about 10 years.


Anyone dares a prediction? We'll come back in few years to check who was right.

Mzungu mchagga
17-05-11, 09:56
LeBrok?

:65:

So your suggestion would be that instead of looking for ways out the economic crisis the Greeks should prepare for keeping their eyes on a 'benevolent dictator'?

Hell yeah, in order to avoid too much blood, what about a reality casting show? Don't worry about few smart people in the jury, Gadaffi, Mubarak & friends don't have much to do these days...

iapetoc
17-05-11, 10:36
how about a EU dictator that has no army control, but money,

Greece had dictatorship until 1974,

how about modern dictatorship, an economical tyrrant,

well some changes should happened in Greece before years, and Greece should made some laws about retirement and public corporation according EU law,

But the rest?
could IMF play the role of a 'dictator' ?????

a non elected, but forced power, by economy, instead of an foreign army, or an inner army???
hmmmmmmmmmm
just wondering, why portugal deny it,
and press Greece so much????
why economical spreads get so high only for Greece and not some rest countries.
hmmmmmmmmmmm

LeBrok
17-05-11, 17:11
[QUOTE=Mzungu mchagga;371949]LeBrok?

:65:

So your suggestion would be that instead of looking for ways out the economic crisis the Greeks should prepare for keeping their eyes on a 'benevolent dictator'?

QUOTE]

Lol, sounds like it all right.
I guess if I have a choice between almost nonfunctional democracy ( as in Greece now), and a smart dictator (like Lee Kuan Yew), I'd go with dictator.

There is no way the Greek government can implement radical economic reforms without willingness of citizens to sacrifice, without trusting government, without unified front behind ruling party.
So what is the way out?

Everybody agrees that we should have the smartest and most honest people to run our countries. Current political systems fail to achieve this goal. It needs to be changed.
A doctor have to finish 7 years of medical education and few years of practice, before we trust him with our health.
A president or ministers that runs a country of millions of citizens and businesses, billions or trillions dollars of budget, who can make you and your kids live well, or ruin your life, doesn't need to finish economic school. He doest even need to prove that he could run his family finances well. He just needs to be a good looking, good demagogue, have some charisma or whatever excites people. Most people make their choices based on their emotions and not on logic. Besides, the candidates are not the fist class either.
Now, this is very wrong, don't you think? I'd say, it is time for a change.

PS. Should we start a thread "How to fix democracy?"

iapetoc
19-05-11, 10:57
[QUOTE=Mzungu mchagga;371949]LeBrok?

:65:

So your suggestion would be that instead of looking for ways out the economic crisis the Greeks should prepare for keeping their eyes on a 'benevolent dictator'?

QUOTE]

Lol, sounds like it all right.
I guess if I have a choice between almost nonfunctional democracy ( as in Greece now), and a smart dictator (like Lee Kuan Yew), I'd go with dictator.

There is no way the Greek government can implement radical economic reforms without willingness of citizens to sacrifice, without trusting government, without unified front behind ruling party.
So what is the way out?

Everybody agrees that we should have the smartest and most honest people to run our countries. Current political systems fail to achieve this goal. It needs to be changed.
A doctor have to finish 7 years of medical education and few years of practice, before we trust him with our health.
A president or ministers that runs a country of millions of citizens and businesses, billions or trillions dollars of budget, who can make you and your kids live well, or ruin your life, doesn't need to finish economic school. He doest even need to prove that he could run his family finances well. He just needs to be a good looking, good demagogue, have some charisma or whatever excites people. Most people make their choices based on their emotions and not on logic. Besides, the candidates are not the fist class either.
Now, this is very wrong, don't you think? I'd say, it is time for a change.

PS. Should we start a thread "How to fix democracy?"

you are right about that,
modern ministers and presidents are well trained actors.
they show you the carrot, but never the wipe.

edao
17-06-11, 10:01
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/53465000/jpg/_53465569_012238690-1.jpg

"The proposed reforms have sparked riots on the streets of Athens, nationwide strikes and rattled global markets. The French and German leaders are due to meet shortly in Berlin to discuss how to prevent Greece defaulting.French and German banks have the most exposure to Greek debt, holding, between them, 55% of Europe's total exposure.


Berlin and Paris have differed over the handling of the Greek crisis: Mrs Merkel has been insistent that banks and private creditors holding Greek debt should accept losses as part of the rescue plan, in the face of domestic opposition to German taxpayers underwriting more of Greece's debt burden.


France, meanwhile, is reluctant to accept those terms as three major French banks are heavily exposed to Greek debt and risk considerable losses if it is restructured.


Greece's debt was downgraded by Standard & Poor's ratings agency earlier this week, making it the lowest-rated of the countries it monitors."



Looks like Greece has reached the tipping point. :gun::danger::flame:
How long before default?
What will a Greek default mean for the economies of Europe?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13805964
http://www.euronews.net/2011/06/17/papandreou-battles-to-save-his-government/ (http://www.euronews.net/2011/06/17/papandreou-battles-to-save-his-government/)

Cimmerianbloke
26-06-11, 00:36
Looks like the story is going to end badly after all, since the bail-out contributors want a serious austerity plan before handing the check to the Greeks. That means all the austerity measures taken so far were not enough. I feel sorry for the Greeks, as I feel sorry for the Spaniards and Portuguese who are next. 10 years ago, I was called a fascist ans a racist when I proned the 2-speed Europe some politicians proposed, that is a leading bunch of advanced EU members, with the poorest and less advanced left dragging behind. Now, no need to tell you I am having the last laugh, with only the best to come. When Spain defaults after the summer (the seasonal jobs will give some breathing space), it's going to be the end of the European dream, because believe me, the Germans are sick and fed up of being the EU wallet. Poor Europe, as her most talented people are leaving she allows unqualified mass immigration to stick its teeth and drain her welfare states dry. History will remember capitalism collapsed less than 2 generations after its victory over communism.
As for the Euro, most recent members and would-be members have been motivated by the fat checks and subsidies that come with the membership. I was appalled at the lack of balls of most member states when the Evil Kascinzky brothers vomited their anti-gay and anti-German rethoric, and at the boldness of the Czech president Klaus showing the EU his finger while pocketing the benefits with the other hand. I do not want that kind of behaviour tolerated in the name of common harmony.
We have to acknowledge the failure of the actual system and find solutions. Greece defaulting might be its chance to deregulate and becoming a fiscal paradise. She was in no position to be admitted in the first place anyway...

iapetoc
26-06-11, 01:09
Looks like the story is going to end badly after all, since the bail-out contributors want a serious austerity plan before handing the check to the Greeks. That means all the austerity measures taken so far were not enough. I feel sorry for the Greeks, as I feel sorry for the Spaniards and Portuguese who are next. 10 years ago, I was called a fascist ans a racist when I proned the 2-speed Europe some politicians proposed, that is a leading bunch of advanced EU members, with the poorest and less advanced left dragging behind. Now, no need to tell you I am having the last laugh, with only the best to come. When Spain defaults after the summer (the seasonal jobs will give some breathing space), it's going to be the end of the European dream, because believe me, the Germans are sick and fed up of being the EU wallet. Poor Europe, as her most talented people are leaving she allows unqualified mass immigration to stick its teeth and drain her welfare states dry. History will remember capitalism collapsed less than 2 generations after its victory over communism.
As for the Euro, most recent members and would-be members have been motivated by the fat checks and subsidies that come with the membership. I was appalled at the lack of balls of most member states when the Evil Kascinzky brothers vomited their anti-gay and anti-German rethoric, and at the boldness of the Czech president Klaus showing the EU his finger while pocketing the benefits with the other hand. I do not want that kind of behaviour tolerated in the name of common harmony.
We have to acknowledge the failure of the actual system and find solutions. Greece defaulting might be its chance to deregulate and becoming a fiscal paradise. She was in no position to be admitted in the first place anyway...

correct since Greece enter Eu the economy is going to worse worse worse

Biggest income of Greece 1973-1978
1978 enters EU
after that only (-)
in fact I believe it is better if Greece leave the Euro and starts taxes in every imported Eu product
and start find another market for weapons

since enter enter IMF and troika the estimation of all run out,

Europeans and Imf are in hurry to give the dose so not the truth went out

another failure of IMF

I post numbers and how worked the IMF and troica in another similar thread




http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xjfmxz_david-rovics-the-riot-dog_music#from=embed