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Shetop
30-04-10, 02:41
I've been reading this forum and also other different sources about genetics for some time. There is one thing which constantly catches my eyes and is concerning Slavic settlement in the Balkans.

History says that there was a massive Slavic settlement in Balkans in 6th-7th century. This would imply significant percentage of some Slavic genetic marker in today's population in Balkans but no one credibly explained who genetically are those people that settled in mentioned period.
Usually R1a is considered as Slavic haplogroup but in case of South Slavs this haplogroup does not match needed large share. This further implies that I2a2 could be this haplogroup which would be connected to those people.

It is also known from history that Serbs and Croats migrated to Balkans from regions in Central Europe but there are theories which explain their previous migration (in 4th centurty) from north Black Sea region to those areas in central Europe. And it is also almost a fact that Bulgaria was settled by tribes who lived between Carpathians and Black Sea.

And as last thing, there are several sources which support the idea of Iranian language origin of names for Serbs, Croats, Antes. History also says that before being Slavicized Sarmatian tribes (and it is confirmed Antes are related to Sarmatians) spoke language belonging to Iranian group of languages.

By connecting all these facts and assumptions do you think I2a2 could be connected to people who lived North of the Black See in Roman times and those are Sarmatians. This would of course imply that Serbs, Croats, Macedonians, Bosnians and Bulgarians can trace their origin in Sarmatia.

That kind of conclusion would set R1a as only Slavic marker and would also explain genetic difference in South and the rest of the Slavs.
One more thing that backs up this theory is high I2a2 frequencies in historical area of Sarmatians (around today’s Moldova).

LeBrok
30-04-10, 03:27
I think Slavic is more like R1a1a7, most likely I2a2 was slavonized and goes hand in hand with R1a1a7 for good 2000-3000 thousand years. But I wouldn't bet on it maybe it was vise versa. I'm not sure if we can call R1a Slavic in general, more like protoslavic, but about 4000 years ago it was same as protobaltic. Maybe we should call it Scythian, most likely they gave rise to Slavic, Baltic, Iranian, Arians before the split. Before that 5000 years ago, R1a Battle Axe culture dominated central, east and North Europe. Genetic record show it was the first incursion into central and north Europe. I think that's the time they started mingling with I2a2.
I'm really looking forward to extensive genetic testing of old graves from this region to really shine light on the subject. Bustards didn't leave us any written word, lol.

PS. Did you came upon info about who were Venedi?
PS. There was a legend in Poland that the ruling class came from Sarmatia.
I was looking at maps showing Sarmatea and Scythea, they all show something different lol, hard to trust one.

LeBrok
30-04-10, 04:06
Strong signature of I2a2 in Moldova is very interesting considering that once gates opened in 4th century many nations went through there like Huns, Magiars, Bulgars, Turks.
If Sarmatia was rich in I2a2 and Iranian tribes came from there we should see some I2a2 in Iran. I don't have any data about this, just a thought. If there is none I2a2 in Iran then Iranians came from around Caspian Sea and not the Black Sea, or I2a2 showed later in this region.
Maybe I2a2 was a late migration from Balkans between 5-10th century? Most likely though it was all over south and central Europe for thousands of years mixed with R1a.

Shetop
30-04-10, 09:06
Slavs got their present name in 6th century so I'm pretty confident that Venedi is how Slavs were called before 6th century.

Maps on wikipedia seem fine to me. There we can see that Sarmatia is the most western part of Scythia.

And maybe it is not precise to consider Sarmatians as Iranian tribes. They did spoke language which is in the group of Iranian languages, but all tribes in Scythia were obviously a part of one cultural region so accepting languages by different tribes inside this region was possible.

Maciamo
30-04-10, 10:51
Slavic speakers emerged from the fusion of Proto-Indo-European R1a1a from the Pontic steppe with non-IE I2a2 farmers from the Cucuteni-Tripolye culture. I believe that the Proto-Slavic speakers coincided with the Globular Amphora culture in western Ukraine, Belarus and eastern Poland. The progressive fusion of these two ethnic groups after thousands of years of living side by side resulted in the replacement of the language(s) of the Cucuteni-Tripolye people by an new IE dialect with loans words from this non-IE language. This is how Proto-Slavic was born.

The South Slavic branch is a later offshoot of R1a1a and I2a2 people from Ukraine-Poland who moved to the Dinaric Alps and mixed with the indigenous I2a2 people there. This explains why there is more I2a2 in Croatia and Bosnia, although they are also Slavic speakers.

This is just my theory, but it's the best explanation I have come up with at the moment.

Shetop
30-04-10, 12:27
Slavic speakers emerged from the fusion of Proto-Indo-European R1a1a from the Pontic steppe with non-IE I2a2 farmers from the Cucuteni-Tripolye culture. I believe that the Proto-Slavic speakers coincided with the Globular Amphora culture in western Ukraine, Belarus and eastern Poland. The progressive fusion of these two ethnic groups after thousands of years of living side by side resulted in the replacement of the language(s) of the Cucuteni-Tripolye people by an new IE dialect with loans words from this non-IE language. This is how Proto-Slavic was born.
The South Slavic branch is a later offshoot of R1a1a and I2a2 people from Ukraine-Poland who moved to the Dinaric Alps and mixed with the indigenous I2a2 people there. This explains why there is more I2a2 in Croatia and Bosnia, although they are also Slavic speakers.
This is just my theory, but it's the best explanation I have come up with at the moment.

Your explanation creates a couple of new questions.

1. If we look at the western Balkans there appears to be more or less one I2a2 haplotype and it is Dinaric South. If there were indigenous I2a2 people before Slavic settlement, then now there should exist at least two different I2a2 haplotypes with higher percentage.
And it shouldn’t be forgotten that R1a1a in South Slavs has its own regions of higher frequencies. For example Pannonian Croatia, Slovenia, northern Bosnia, and maybe northern Serbia. All these areas are geographically divided from I2a2 regions which makes connection between I2a2 and R1a not that close.

2. If we go back to the Roman period, how should be explained Sarmatian language speakers in the region of today's Moldova.
History confirms that Bulgaria was settled in 7th century from this region by Slavic speakers. And it is also accepted that most of the Sarmatians received Slavic languages.

Joro
30-04-10, 17:46
If you want to know about who Serbs are, just read Kōnstantinos VII Porphyrogennētos and his 'De administrando imperio' and it will all be clear to you:D
I appreciate your effort, but we Croats are Slavic people.

and if Croats were Sarmatians, so were the other Slavs. Croats only possibly inherited their name.

Haganus
30-04-10, 23:09
In the Roman time Yugo-Slavia and Bulgaria were inhabited by Indo-
European peoples like the Illyrians, Thracians and Rumania by the
Dacians. What has happaned with them after the arrival of the Slavic
immigrants? Did they disappear like snow before the sunshine?

Joro
30-04-10, 23:46
In the Roman time Yugo-Slavia and Bulgaria were inhabited by Indo-
European peoples like the Illyrians, Thracians and Rumania by the
Dacians. What has happaned with them after the arrival of the Slavic
immigrants? Did they disappear like snow before the sunshine?
they were assimilated into Slavic newcomers.Romanians are descendants of pre-Slavic peoples, and some Roman colonists.

Shetop
30-04-10, 23:50
In the Roman time Yugo-Slavia and Bulgaria were inhabited by Indo-
European peoples like the Illyrians, Thracians and Rumania by the
Dacians. What has happaned with them after the arrival of the Slavic
immigrants? Did they disappear like snow before the sunshine?

I actually started this thread to make it clear for myself was there or not that Slavic migration to the Balkans. There are two possible but opposite conclusions:

1. The I2a2 is indigenous in Balkans, and opposite from that
2. Official history science describes settlement of the Slavs in 6th-7th century

I’m not defending neither of these theories, I just want to hear serious arguments for both of them. Since I’m new to the forum I can’t post the Wikipedia link but I hope you can find it based on this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavs#Interaction_with_the_Balkan_population
This article could be answer to your question.

If I would defend second theory then genetically indigenous people could be E1b1b1 mixed with R1b. There is 2:1 proportion of those two haplogroups throughout the Balkans. And R1a could have come with I2a2 but in much smaller proportion.

Maciamo
02-05-10, 08:33
Your explanation creates a couple of new questions.

1. If we look at the western Balkans there appears to be more or less one I2a2 haplotype and it is Dinaric South. If there were indigenous I2a2 people before Slavic settlement, then now there should exist at least two different I2a2 haplotypes with higher percentage.

Actually, Croatia and Bosnia have the highest diversity of I2a2 STR's. I don't think it is because I2a2 originated in this confined part of Europe. Paleolithic people were mobile hunter-gatherers and would have roamed over vast expanses of land. It's more likely that the current diversity was caused by another group of I2a2 joining the indigenous one.



And it shouldn’t be forgotten that R1a1a in South Slavs has its own regions of higher frequencies. For example Pannonian Croatia, Slovenia, northern Bosnia, and maybe northern Serbia. All these areas are geographically divided from I2a2 regions which makes connection between I2a2 and R1a not that close.

If I am right then the I2a2 found in regions with more R1a1a should be more similar to that found in Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus and Poland than to the native Dinaric I2a2.



2. If we go back to the Roman period, how should be explained Sarmatian language speakers in the region of today's Moldova.

The Samartians were not Slavic but Turkic speakers. They are closely related to the Scythians (in fact seen as a western branch of the Scythians) and originated in Central Asia, probably as the descendants of the Indo-Iranians who were later conquered by the original Turkic speakers from Mongolia in the late Antiquity.


History confirms that Bulgaria was settled in 7th century from this region by Slavic speakers. And it is also accepted that most of the Sarmatians received Slavic languages.

The Bulgars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars) were not Slavic either, but Turkic. Modern Bulgarian language is not related (except for a few loan words) to the language of the Bulgarian invaders. No more than French was the language of the Franks...

It is interesting to see how Indo-Iranian speakers in Central Asia became Turkic speakers, but those who moved into Europe converted back to an Indo-European language, Slavic, which is quite closely related to Indo-Iranian. Both Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages are strongly associated with R1a1a people. You can read more about this in my article Turkic speakers and R1a (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#Turkic).

iapodos
02-05-10, 15:15
What is essential is that I2aDinaric haplogroup is somehow tightly coneccted both with Serbs and Croats. Not exlusively with Croats as it is usually interpretted. It appears as dominant haplogroup in regions wich was in history or nowadays inhabited with Serbs or Croats- Carpathians and Dinaric Alps. According to Constantine Porfirogenitus Serbs came to Balkan from the country called Boiki in Carpathians. Today there is ethnic group of carpathian highlanders with the name Bojki. Coincidance?

The region with highest percentage of I2a in former Yugoslavia is Herzegovina. Historically it was the first place where Serbs came when they settled in Balkans. They form principalities on the Adriatic cost- Pagania, Zahumlje, Travunia, Konavle which later all together were incorporated into unified serbian medieval state under Nemanjic dinasty. The Nemanjics, and other noble families which ruled Serbia for centuries origins from the ruling families of these principalities known also as Primorje or Land by the Sea. In 14th century these region became known as Duchy of Saint Sabbas (Saint Sabbas was Serbian prince Rastko Nemanjic who became serbian spiritual leader, patron and saint) or Herzegovina according to german title herceg.
For the prince Michailo Vishevic who ruled Zahumlje was specificially said that he originated from river Vistula.

After Turkish conqest of Serbia in 15th century, Herzegovina was the last principality which fell under the turkish domination and neighboring Montenegro survived certain autonomy even later. Serbian refugees from all over Serbdom find shelter in high and isolated herzegovinian and montenegrian mountains. To preserve national identity and Christian faith they formed specific clan system which survived to nowadays. That clan system saved the memory of national pride, Nemanjics dinasty as many of these clans were derived their origins from Nemanjics dinasty. In documents of that time, mostly Venetian, they are called Vlachs. Actually, except for way of living, sheperdic and nomadic they having nothing in common with Aromanians and other indigenous Balkan populations. Their society was patriarchal and military. They moved westward and became main population element in Military Frontier and North Dalmatia where they became known as krajisniks. They became dominant element both in Serbian and Croation sociaties, as the standard for Serbo-Croatian language became East Herzegovinian shtokavian dialect of ijekavian pronunciation.
If you see surnames and haplotypes listed in I2a project FTDNA there are few individuals which belong to herzegovinian clans Banjani,Drobnjaci, Pivljani, Piperi, Ozrinici. There is legend of that clans that they came to nowadays Herzegovina somewhere from the northwest, supressing and occuping land of inferior (how they thought) indigenous tribes of Bukumiri, Luzani, Ridjani, Kricke. Most historians consider these tribes mixed population of Balkan indigenous groups and Slavs which came in the region before coming of the Serbs.
These Herzegovian clans and their descendants are the main bearers of haplogroup I2a2 and I want to show that their origin can be traced from the White Serbs which came to Balkan in 7th century. It is also the most national conscienceness part of serbian nation and honestly speaking core one.
So my conclusion is that genetics proved migration of Serbs and Croats in the 7th century from north to south. It is obvious that high percentage could be easily explained with high natality rate typical for mountainous people.
I also think that there is something non Slavic both in Serbs and Croats, but that Non Slavic element has nothing to do with indigeneous population of Balkan and Serbs and Crats brought that element with themselves from the northern homeland.

Joro
02-05-10, 17:35
1)According to Porphirogenetus, 'Serb' was just a social status('servants'). Why do you always leave out that favorite part of mine?
2)Vlachs are an ethnic group, so yes,a good part of the 'Serbs' who came with Turks are of non-Serbian and non-Slavic origin.

iapodos
02-05-10, 18:16
Well Joro, if you are I2a2 and came from Herzegovina and neighboring regions then you also must be Vlach and "servant" as you said.

Joro
02-05-10, 18:25
Well Joro, if you are I2a2 and came from Herzegovina and neighboring regions then you also must be Vlach and "servant" as you said.
servi/servants is a political construction, not genetical.

iapodos
02-05-10, 18:36
servi/servants is a political construction, not genetical.

It is very interesting opinion. One whole European nation is a political construction of Byzantine Emperor and word play of Latin verb servare. I think that Serbs actually never existed. Enlight me, Joro, who am I indeed if I am not Serb.

Joro
02-05-10, 18:42
It is very interesting opinion. One whole European nation is a political construction of Byzantine Emperor and word play of Latin verb servare. I think that Serbs actually never existed. Enlight me, Joro, who am I indeed if I am not Serb.
Well, you are a Serb, aren't you? The fact that Serbs probably were named after their serving to Byzantium won't change anything today.

iapodos
02-05-10, 18:50
Well, you are a Serb, aren't you? The fact that Serbs probably were named after their serving to Byzantium won't change anything today.
if I understand correctly Serbs are actually Croats who served Byzantines and that's how they got name.

Joro
02-05-10, 19:04
if I understand correctly Serbs are actually Croats who served Byzantines and that's how they got name.
that is one of the possibilities.not to get me wrong, today's serbs are a totally disctinct people with their own ethogenesis process, however, i just wanted to cut down potential Serbian mytomania on this thread in it's root.

iapodos
02-05-10, 19:28
that is one of the possibilities.not to get me wrong, today's serbs are a totally disctinct people with their own ethogenesis process, however, i just wanted to cut down potential Serbian mytomania on this thread in it's root.
And it is not mytomania speaking fairytales about origins of Serbian name from word servants and that Byzantines gave them name. About origin of the name Serb, was a lot of theories but yours is most stupid one.
1. In the Eastern Germany till nowadays lives Lusatian Serbs or Sorbs, in their own language they called themselves Serbja.They never lived even near to Byzantine Empire so who gave them name
2. Frankish chronicles describes both the northern and southern Serbs as Sorabos
3. Constantine Porfirogenitus strictly describes that Serbs descended from White Serbs

Joro
02-05-10, 19:32
1) and 2) are most probably not related to Balkan Serbs.
3)yes, and there is quite a possibility that he just copied that from story about arrival of Croats from White Croatia.

my theory is not stupid, because it is based on most credibile source for early history of Croats and Serbs.

LeBrok
02-05-10, 19:36
Can someone explain this. What Serbs are doing in Sachsen region? Was this the place they occupied before moving south, or they came here later from south. I think history of Serbs there is long, at least from 8th century AD.
I found this link in polish only, sorry.
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo%C5%82u%C5%BCyczanie
There is a mention that Serbs here are 63%R1a1

Joro
02-05-10, 19:37
Can someone explain this. What Serbs are doing in Sachsen region? Was this the place they occupied before moving south, or they came here later from south. I think history of Serbs there is long, at least from 8th century AD.
I found this link in polish only, sorry.
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo%C5%82u%C5%BCyczanie
There is a mention that Serbs here are 63%R1a1
those are Sorbs, not Serbs.

iapodos
02-05-10, 19:45
1) and 2) are most probably not related to Balkan Serbs.
3)yes, and there is quite a possibility that he just copied that from story about arrival of Croats from White Croatia.

my theory is not stupid, because it is based on most credibile source for early history of Croats and Serbs.

Joro, with all respect for your effort to be amateur forum historian, I shall not further discuss with you about origin of Serbs and Croats.

What I want was to underline two important phrases in your statements above and it is most probably and there is a quite possibility. if you want to play historians you must give much more than that. Some credible source as you said. Otherwise it is all matter of your personal opinion, better said nationalistic opinion.
All the best for Serbian brother.

LeBrok
02-05-10, 19:50
What are you 12 Joro. You behave like kid on a playground, ridiculing other kids just because they are different. We all know by now you don't like Serbs, but please, give people a chance!

Joro
02-05-10, 19:53
Joro, with all respect for your effort to be amateur forum historian, I shall not further discuss with you about origin of Serbs and Croats.

What I want was to underline two important phrases in your statements above and it is most probably and there is a quite possibility. if you want to play historians you must give much more than that. Some credible source as you said. Otherwise it is all matter of your personal opinion, better said nationalistic opinion.

And you didn't give any credible source, instead you are just trolling because you can't accept the historical sources which see Serbs as ordinary servants.

Joro
02-05-10, 19:55
What are you 12 Joro. You behave like kid on a playground, ridiculing other kids just because they are different. We all know by now you don't like Serbs, but please, give people a chance!
Look, i know you are insecure and you just love to try to humiliate others hiding under other's skirts, but try at least for once to grow up a bit and abstain from your childish performances, ok?

iapodos
02-05-10, 19:55
Can someone explain this. What Serbs are doing in Sachsen region? Was this the place they occupied before moving south, or they came here later from south. I think history of Serbs there is long, at least from 8th century AD.
There is a mention that Serbs here are 63%R1a1


There are some archeological traces which shows that Serbs before they split on northern and southern branch lived around nowadays Wien and Bratislava. From there they split and one branch goes south, the other one in region of today Eastern Germany. Profesor Jankovic from Belgrade university claimed that Serbs are clearly recognizable in archeological point of view, because both the Lusatian and Southern Serbs practised same burrial scheme.

Joro
02-05-10, 20:00
oh, no...Serbian 'historians'...are those the ones who claim that Serbs are the oldest people in the world?:D
give me some concrete sources about early Serbian history.
Porphirogenetus,Priest Dioclean,Thomas Archdeacon...what??

Joro
02-05-10, 20:05
who wants to have a little fun...:laughing::laughing:

http://www.1989history.eu/upload/1247826070.pdf

LeBrok
02-05-10, 20:12
Look, i know you are insecure and you just love to try to humiliate others hiding under other's skirts, but try at least for once to grow up a bit and abstain from your childish performances, ok?
This is it, your wisdom in full bloom.

Joro
02-05-10, 20:16
This is it, your wisdom in full bloom.

Good.May I ask you now to stop adressing to me?

Imperium Romanorum
02-05-10, 20:16
You Croats in the old custom, as from 1942, when you marched with Hiller and when you killed us Jews and Serbs unfortunate ...

:startled:


I just do not understand, why moderators let you to spread your lies

Joro
02-05-10, 20:25
You Croats in the old custom, as from 1942, when you marched with Hiller and when you killed us Jews and Serbs unfortunate ...

:startled:


I just do not understand, why moderators let you to spread your lies
Who is this? A Serb introducing himself as a Jew? very poor...:laughing:
In case you really are a Jew, maybe you should check which was the first bigger town in Europe that was declared 'Judenfrei'.

So, when we lack evidence, we pretend to appear as Jews...:laughing:

iapodos
02-05-10, 20:33
This discussion became something that has nothing to do with genetics. I suggest moderators to take some actions. We have one mad Croat in the air!

Joro
02-05-10, 20:37
Well, i was just trying to clarify origin of Serbs a little bit, because the sources clearly show there is no much credibility in Sarmatian origin , nor for Serbs, nor for Croats.

Imperium Romanorum
02-05-10, 20:38
Who is this? A Serb introducing himself as a Jew? very poor...:laughing:
In case you really are a Jew, maybe you should check which was the first bigger town in Europe that was declared 'Judenfrei'.

So, when we lack evidence, we pretend to appear as Jews...:laughing:


Ok !

Belgrade was a occupied city by the nazis from Germany and Croatia!
German and Croats terrorized Serb and
Jewish population..

If you go to Yad Vashem you'll see that the Serbs have place among "Righteous Among the Nations" for rescue Jewish population..

One way of saving the Jewish population was that the Serbian municipal government issued ID card with the Serbian name..

Because of thet, Croatian and German Nazis thought the all Jews are killed..

Imperium Romanorum
02-05-10, 20:44
Joro..
You knowledge of historical facts are poor..
The only thing that stands out in your posts is old Croat Ustasha policies toward other nations..

Shetop
02-05-10, 20:48
The Samartians were not Slavic but Turkic speakers.

I cannot understand this. According to wikipedia Sarmatians spoke Iranian:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scytho-Sarmatian_languages

Anyway I may not be a genetic Expert but I hope I will find a way to make people consider a theory of Sarmatian connection with I2a2. I am getting more and more confident that there is a lot of sense in this assumption.

And addressed to others - please stop posting this pointless stuff. This may be in the interest of both Croats and Serbs.

Joro
02-05-10, 20:51
Joro..
You knowledge of historical facts are poor..
The only thing that stands out in your posts is old Croat Ustasha policies toward other nations..
Well, atleast I don't need multiple accounts to cover me up:grin:
and I'm not Ustasha, I am a 'normal' person, and I respect Jews because i consider myself Christian.

LeBrok
02-05-10, 20:53
Joro, look at first page of this thread. There was a nice discussion and exchange of ideas till you started posting. You barged here offended Serbs and from your first post onward you turned this thread into garbage. If this was your goal then congratulation, you did splendid job, spreading you "tolerance and respect" towards other nations. Stop attacking people and turning good threads into garbage.

Imperium Romanorum
02-05-10, 20:55
I cannot understand this. According to wikipedia Sarmatians spoke Iranian:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scytho-Sarmatian_languages

Anyway I may not be a genetic Expert but I hope I will find a way to make people consider a theory of Sarmatian connection with I2a2. I am getting more and more confident that there is a lot of sense in this assumption.

And please stop posting this pointless stuff. This may be in the interest of both Croats and Serbs.
:laughing:

Pointless stuff
:laughing:

If you think really, that Serb are Iranian...you have a problem...
I2a is originally European...there is nowhere else traces of I2a...

Shetop
02-05-10, 20:57
:laughing:

Pointless stuff
:laughing:

If you think really, that Serb are Iranian...you have a problem...
I2a is originally European...there is nowhere else traces of I2a...


And with your logic R1b is from Wales isn't it?

iapodos
02-05-10, 20:57
There is Iranian theory of serbian origin but till now there is not genetic evidence for that. Because the early serbian dinasties emerged from tribes ruling castes it would be interesting to know their DNA. Everything else is a pure speculation. My assumption, according to genetic data and historical documents is that nowadays dinaric Serbs are descendents of White Serbs who were also I2a2 and who came to Balkan in 7th century. So to be clear I am talking about specific groups of Serbs which formed serbian medievial state and not about all Serbian nation which have more complex ethnogenesis.

Shetop
02-05-10, 20:58
Pointless stuff was NOT adressed to Maciamo...

Imperium Romanorum
02-05-10, 20:58
Well, atleast I don't need multiple accounts to cover me up:grin:
and I'm not Ustasha, I am a 'normal' person, and I respect Jews because i consider myself Christian.
:annoyed:
You do not have respect for anyone..
It's proved with your racist posts
:useless:

Shetop
02-05-10, 21:00
There is Iranian theory of serbian origin but till now there is not genetic evidence for that. Because the early serbian dinasties emerged from tribes ruling castes it would be interesting to know their DNA. Everything else is a pure speculation. My assumption, according to genetic data and historical documents is that nowadays dinaric Serbs are descendents of White Serbs who were also I2a2 and who came to Balkan in 7th century. So to be clear I am talking about specific groups of Serbs which formed serbian medievial state and not about all Serbian nation which have more complex ethnogenesis.

They just spoke Iranian in that period. But half of Asia did at that time so this doesn't mean they are Iranian.

Joro
02-05-10, 21:01
Joro, look at first page of this thread. There was a nice discussion and exchange of ideas till you started posting. You barged here offended Serbs and from your first post onward you turned this thread into garbage. If this was your goal then congratulation, you did splendid job, spreading you "tolerance and respect" towards other nations. Stop attacking people and turning good threads into garbage.
ok, my lady.will you please now calm down.


You do not have respect for anyone..
It's proved with your racist posts
My racist posts?care to explain?


I cannot understand this. According to wikipedia Sarmatians spoke Iranian:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scytho-Sarmatian_languages

Anyway I may not be a genetic Expert but I hope I will find a way to make people consider a theory of Sarmatian connection with I2a2. I am getting more and more confident that there is a lot of sense in this assumption.

And please stop posting this pointless stuff. This may be in the interest of both Croats and Serbs.I've read somewhere that Russian writers called Sarmatians Obri(Avars)

Imperium Romanorum
02-05-10, 21:03
And with your logic R1b is from Wales isn't it?

I did not understand..
For I2a is proven to be Europian ..
No Iranian, no Martians :grin:

I am- יהודי אשכנז -Yehudei Ashkenaz , but i am I2a..
Could you explain that with this Iranian theory...

Shetop
02-05-10, 21:05
I've read somewhere that Russian writers called Sarmatians Obri(Avars)

Obri was the way how they called Avars, please be sure if you really read it.

Joro
02-05-10, 21:06
I did not understand..
For I2a is proven to be Europian ..
No Iranian, no Martians :grin:
Threre is also an interesting theory that I heard.That Red Croats(Herzegovina,Montenegro,most of Albania) came from Carpathians, and that's where the second largest concentration of I2a is.
White Croats(modern Croatia and Bosnia) would come somewhere from southern Poland/Czech republic.

Shetop
02-05-10, 21:07
I did not understand..
For I2a is proven to be Europian ..
No Iranian, no Martians :grin:

How is it proven?

Joro
02-05-10, 21:08
Obri was the way how they called Avars, please be sure if you really read it.
yes, I'm sure that I read it, but it could be difficult for me to find it now.
it was written by russian chroniclers...

Shetop
02-05-10, 21:09
Threre is also an interesting theory that I heard.That Red Croats(Herzegovina,Montenegro,SW Serbia,most of Albania) came from Carpathians, and that's where the second largest concentration of I2a is.
White Croats(modern Croatia and Bosnia) would come somewhere from southern Poland/Czech republic.

Yes I agree that could be possible. Even though I'm Serb. ;)
But all these tribes came to this central Europe Area from somewhere. There is no proof they were there forever.
My assumption is that Migration Period, Huns, Goths and other different causes moved them from their previous homeland in Sarmatia.

Joro
02-05-10, 21:10
Yes I agree that could be possible. Even though I'm Serb. ;)
you are the most open minded Serb I've met ever in my life :good_job:

iapodos
02-05-10, 21:13
They just spoke Iranian in that period. But half of Asia did at that time so this doesn't mean they are Iranian.
You probably means on that Sarmatian tribe Serboi that is mention by Plinie and Strabo on the river Volga. The question is what was the haplogroup of those tribes? When the Serbs was formed as a nation with name Serbs, and what was dominant haplogroup of that people. We simply now can not answer that questions.

Shetop
02-05-10, 21:16
Threre is also an interesting theory that I heard.That Red Croats(Herzegovina,Montenegro,most of Albania) came from Carpathians, and that's where the second largest concentration of I2a is.
White Croats(modern Croatia and Bosnia) would come somewhere from southern Poland/Czech republic.

This is similar to what iapodos was writing about "Bojka".
And Red Croats is a bit tendentious don't you agree. Let's just skip it.

Joro
02-05-10, 21:16
Yes I agree that could be possible. Even though I'm Serb. ;)
But all these tribes came to this central Europe Area from somewhere. There is no proof they were there forever.
My assumption is that Migration Period, Huns, Goths and other different causes moved them from their previous homeland in Sarmatia.
what about the possibility that Serbs are actually Sarmatians?

Joro
02-05-10, 21:17
This is similar to what iapodos was writing about "Bojka".
And Red Croats is a bit tendentious don't you agree. Let's just skip it.
well, let's put it aside for now, but Red Croats are an undeniable possibility.

iapodos
02-05-10, 21:19
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Serbia

Shetop
02-05-10, 21:21
what about the possibility that Serbs are actually Sarmatians?

Yes, there are many possibilities.
I think it may be the best to forget Serbs and Croats and focus on Sarmatians. If we understand them we will understand everything.

Imperium Romanorum
02-05-10, 21:22
How is it proven?

I2a is a major subHaplogroup of Y-Haplogroup "I"

GEOGRAPHICAL DESCRIPTION OF I2A SUBCLADES
The Balkan countries likely harbored subclade I2a during the Last Glacial Maximum. Today, this branch is found distributed in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, and extends further east with Slavic-speaking populations; also extends north and west through Europe and into the British Isles.
:good_job:

From Ken Nordtvedt's "Story of I1b1" comes the following descriptions of the various subclades of I2a:
..."Dinaric. (I2a2, M423+) It is mainly found in eastern Europe with frequency peak in Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia, near the Dinaric Alps."
..."Western I2a (I2a* P37.2+)is located more to the northwest in Germany, but appreciable amounts of it are found in the British Isles as well."
..."Isles (I2a2, M423+) is almost exclusively found in the British Isles and especially in Ireland."
....Sardinian (I2a1, M26+) accounts for about a third of Sardinia ydna, but it is also found at decent frequencies in regions of Italy and Iberia. It is also scattered up the Atlantic seaboard of Europe and into the British Isles. SNP M26+ defines this subhaplogroup of I2a but its extremely unique YCAIIa,b motif makes an SNP unnecessary for its identification." I add to this that Sardinia is not necessarily the origin of M26 but rather, probably a recipient of M26 from the mainland. SubHaplogroup I2a1 is very common in Sardinia and was likely among the first humans to populate the island about 9000 years ago. It is also found in the western Mediterranean and western Europe at lower frequencies. Unlike I2a, I2a1 is not present east of the Adriatic Sea.

Here's a link to a map showing locations of most of the current SNP's of Haplogroup I throughout Europe ..

:confused2: You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 10 posts or more.

I do not have license...to link the map :angry:

iapodos
02-05-10, 21:24
well, let's put it aside for now, but Red Croats are an undeniable possibility.
This Joro is really a joker. Typical serbian mentality.

Shetop
02-05-10, 21:27
I2a is a major subHaplogroup of Y-Haplogroup "I"

GEOGRAPHICAL DESCRIPTION OF I2A SUBCLADES
The Balkan countries likely harbored subclade I2a during the Last Glacial Maximum. Today, this branch is found distributed in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, and extends further east with Slavic-speaking populations; also extends north and west through Europe and into the British Isles.
:good_job:

From Ken Nordtvedt's "Story of I1b1" comes the following descriptions of the various subclades of I2a:
..."Dinaric. (I2a2, M423+) It is mainly found in eastern Europe with frequency peak in Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia, near the Dinaric Alps."
..."Western I2a (I2a* P37.2+)is located more to the northwest in Germany, but appreciable amounts of it are found in the British Isles as well."
..."Isles (I2a2, M423+) is almost exclusively found in the British Isles and especially in Ireland."
....Sardinian (I2a1, M26+) accounts for about a third of Sardinia ydna, but it is also found at decent frequencies in regions of Italy and Iberia. It is also scattered up the Atlantic seaboard of Europe and into the British Isles. SNP M26+ defines this subhaplogroup of I2a but its extremely unique YCAIIa,b motif makes an SNP unnecessary for its identification." I add to this that Sardinia is not necessarily the origin of M26 but rather, probably a recipient of M26 from the mainland. SubHaplogroup I2a1 is very common in Sardinia and was likely among the first humans to populate the island about 9000 years ago. It is also found in the western Mediterranean and western Europe at lower frequencies. Unlike I2a, I2a1 is not present east of the Adriatic Sea.

Here's a link to a map showing locations of most of the current SNP's of Haplogroup I throughout Europe ..

:confused2: You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 10 posts or more.

I do not have license...to link the map :angry:

That is not a proof to me.
This is an eminent Russian site. So if you know Russian:
http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,206.30.html

iapodos
02-05-10, 21:28
I2a is a major subHaplogroup of Y-Haplogroup "I"

GEOGRAPHICAL DESCRIPTION OF I2A SUBCLADES
The Balkan countries likely harbored subclade I2a during the Last Glacial Maximum. Today, this branch is found distributed in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, and extends further east with Slavic-speaking populations; also extends north and west through Europe and into the British Isles.
:good_job:

From Ken Nordtvedt's "Story of I1b1" comes the following descriptions of the various subclades of I2a:
..."Dinaric. (I2a2, M423+) It is mainly found in eastern Europe with frequency peak in Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia, near the Dinaric Alps."
..."Western I2a (I2a* P37.2+)is located more to the northwest in Germany, but appreciable amounts of it are found in the British Isles as well."
..."Isles (I2a2, M423+) is almost exclusively found in the British Isles and especially in Ireland."
....Sardinian (I2a1, M26+) accounts for about a third of Sardinia ydna, but it is also found at decent frequencies in regions of Italy and Iberia. It is also scattered up the Atlantic seaboard of Europe and into the British Isles. SNP M26+ defines this subhaplogroup of I2a but its extremely unique YCAIIa,b motif makes an SNP unnecessary for its identification." I add to this that Sardinia is not necessarily the origin of M26 but rather, probably a recipient of M26 from the mainland. SubHaplogroup I2a1 is very common in Sardinia and was likely among the first humans to populate the island about 9000 years ago. It is also found in the western Mediterranean and western Europe at lower frequencies. Unlike I2a, I2a1 is not present east of the Adriatic Sea.

Here's a link to a map showing locations of most of the current SNP's of Haplogroup I throughout Europe ..

:confused2: You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 10 posts or more.

I do not have license...to link the map :angry:

I would say it is little bit too old information.

Shetop
02-05-10, 21:28
Very interesting for reading:
http://www.livius.org/sao-sd/sarmatians/sarmatians.html

LeBrok
02-05-10, 21:30
I cannot understand this. According to wikipedia Sarmatians spoke Iranian:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scytho-Sarmatian_languages

Anyway I may not be a genetic Expert but I hope I will find a way to make people consider a theory of Sarmatian connection with I2a2. I am getting more and more confident that there is a lot of sense in this assumption.

And please stop posting this pointless stuff. This may be in the interest of both Croats and Serbs.

I've just looked at some statistics. If Iranians came from Sarmatia(north shore of Black Sea) they should have more I compared to R1a.
Look here, find Iran almost at bottom of page.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

It shows 16.5% R1a and only 3% of I. North of Black Sea is rich in I about 30% and around 30% for R1a. If in past these numbers where sort of related in these proportions, Iran I should be around 15%. Even around 7% it still would make some sense, but 3 is very small.

Either Iranians are not from north Black Sea but more from Caspian region, or I2a2 showed in Sarmatia after Iranians left.

There is always a chance that they came from Sarmatia. Old maps are imprecise and show different things. Some of them Show Sarmatia stretching from Black Sea to Ural mountains. But it's quite improbable that Iranians came from North of Black Sea, because of huge presence of I there, and Iranians are lacking it.

Joro
02-05-10, 21:31
This Joro is really a joker. Typical serbian mentality.
Serbian mentality...very well described :laughing::laughing:

Imperium Romanorum
02-05-10, 21:38
That is not a proof to me.
This is an eminent Russian site. So if you know Russian:

:confused2:
Russian site
:laughing:
When you ask the Russians, the whole world are Slavs...

I2a are Euopian... no Russian... and no Slavs...

Shetop
02-05-10, 21:41
I've just looked at some statistics. If Iranians came from Sarmatia(north shore of Black Sea) they should have more I compared to R1a.
Look here, find Iran almost at bottom of page.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

It shows 16.5% R1a and only 3% of I. North of Black Sea is rich in I about 30% and around 30% for R1a. If in past these numbers where sort of related in these proportions, Iran I should be around 15%. Even around 7% it still would make some sense, but 3 is very small.

Either Iranians are not from north Black Sea but more from Caspian region, or I2a2 showed in Sarmatia after Iranians left.

There is always a chance that they came from Sarmatia. Old maps are imprecise and show different things. Some of them Show Sarmatia stretching from Black Sea to Ural mountains. But it's quite improbable that Iranians came from North of Black Sea, because of huge presence of I there, and Iranians are lacking it.

I didn't think there would be so many ideas that Sarmatians should be closely related to Iranians.
Today we have Hungarians speaking their own language group and look at their haplogroups.
My assumption is that language can be easily accepted or imposed by different reasons. As I already wrote half of Asia was speaking Iranian group of languages around 100 AC.

Shetop
02-05-10, 21:43
:confused2:
Russian site
:laughing:
When you ask the Russians, the whole world are Slavs...

I2a are Euopian... no Russian... and no Slavs...

Most of the ancestors of today's Russians spoke Iranian also.
I'll try to explain that to them. :smile:

Imperium Romanorum
02-05-10, 21:51
Most of the ancestors of today's Russians spoke Iranian also.
I'll try to explain that to them. :smile:

:laughing:

You are very funny man

:laughing:

There is no evidence for you fantasy.. i guess you are supporter off aryan theory of Slavs roots..

:laughing:

Shetop
02-05-10, 21:52
I've just looked at some statistics. If Iranians came from Sarmatia(north shore of Black Sea) they should have more I compared to R1a.
Look here, find Iran almost at bottom of page.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

It shows 16.5% R1a and only 3% of I. North of Black Sea is rich in I about 30% and around 30% for R1a. If in past these numbers where sort of related in these proportions, Iran I should be around 15%. Even around 7% it still would make some sense, but 3 is very small.

Either Iranians are not from north Black Sea but more from Caspian region, or I2a2 showed in Sarmatia after Iranians left.

There is always a chance that they came from Sarmatia. Old maps are imprecise and show different things. Some of them Show Sarmatia stretching from Black Sea to Ural mountains. But it's quite improbable that Iranians came from North of Black Sea, because of huge presence of I there, and Iranians are lacking it.

There are no good maps, but I'll try to explain. The year is 500 BC:
1. There were Scythians living between Carpathians and river Don (western Scythians). My assumption is they were R1a
2. Sarmatians living between river Don and Caspian Sea
3. Scythian Sakas between Caspian Sea and China (eastern Scythians). They were also R1a

Around 300 BC Sarmatians conquered western Scythians and Sarmatia was then spread from Carpathians to Caspian Sea. That was the time R1a and I2a2 started more intensive mixing but Sarmatians who stayed more at the east preserved more I2a2. Those colud be Croats and Serbs.

Shetop
02-05-10, 21:55
:laughing:

You are very funny man

:laughing:

There is no evidence for you fantasy.. i guess you are supporter off aryan theory of Slavs roots..

:laughing:

Look at this map:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scytho-Sarmatian_languages

And also check the data and you will find out that central Asia was highly populated 3000 years ago. At that time rains were much more often in this region.

Imperium Romanorum
02-05-10, 21:55
There are no good maps, but I'll try to explain. The year is 500 BC:
1. There were Scythians living between Carpathians and river Don (western Scythians). My assumption is they were R1a
2. Sarmatians living between river Don and Caspian Sea
3. Scythian Sakas between Caspian Sea and China (eastern Scythians). They were also R1a

Around 300 BC Sarmatians conquered western Scythians and Sarmatia was then spread from Carpathians to Caspian Sea. That was the time R1a and I2a2 started mixing but Sarmatians who stayed more at the east preserved more I2a2. Those colud be Croats and Serbs.

You are now mixed Assyrian,s and Iranians..
Assyrians are true name for Iranians!

Assyrians are semites as Hebrews or Arabs.Their language is Aramaic , the language Jesus Christ spoke.Aramaic is similar to Hebrew.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v309/251/1/515182222/n515182222_1131946_7036.jpg

Imperium Romanorum
02-05-10, 22:00
Look at this map:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scytho-Sarmatian_languages

And also check the data and you will find out that central Asia was highly populated 3000 years ago. At that time rains were much more often in this region.
ok

wikipedia is not relevant source...
Anyone can write on it and edit the articles...

Shetop
02-05-10, 22:02
You are now mixed Assyrian,s and Iranians..
Assyrians are true name for Iranians!

And again... Iranians are not that relevant for this story. How did Sarmatians started speaking languages which belong to Iranian group I really don't know. That is very distant history. But who knows, genetics may give answer to that also.

Imperium Romanorum
02-05-10, 22:06
And again... Iranians are not that relevant for this story. How did Sarmatians started speaking languages which belong to Iranian group I really don't know. That is very distant history. But who knows, genetics may give answer to that also.

wtf :shocked:

All the time you talking about Iranian's theory..
And now...it is not relevant...

:petrified:

Shetop
02-05-10, 22:10
wtf :shocked:

All the time you talking about Iranian's theory..
And now...it is not relevant...

:petrified:

Yes there might be something in this theory but it is also very tendentious.
In order to answer your question we would have to answer who actually Iranians are?

And this not the place or the time. Let's please focus on Sarmatians...

Imperium Romanorum
02-05-10, 22:12
Yes there might be something in this theory but it is also very tendentious.
In order to answer your question we would have to answer who actually Iranians are?

And this not the place or the time. Let's please focus on Sarmatians...

I answered you... Iranians are actually Assiryans...
But today Iranians are mixture of Arabs and Assiryans..

LeBrok
02-05-10, 22:24
Really? 3 thousand years apart, but still the same. Did you see haplogroups of Assyrians? We have Iranians here.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

They are rich in R1a and even contain 2.5% of N, the only country in the Middle East. It points strongly to Iranian's origin North of Caspian Sea or so.

iapodos
02-05-10, 22:35
http://de-construct.net/?p=5447

Maciamo
03-05-10, 09:34
I have been thinking about the presence of I1 and R1b in Croatia. I think that the most likely explanation is that both came during the Germanic migrations (Ostrogoths, Lombards, Bavaro-Austrians). I would need to know the subclades of R1b found in Croatia to confirm this. If most of it is R-U106/S21, then it will confirm a Germanic origin. If most of it is the Italo-Alpine R-U152/S28, then R1b has no relation to the Germanic migrations and I1 might have a different origin too. Unfortunately I don't have any study on Croatian subclades of R1b.

Maciamo
03-05-10, 09:38
Most of the ancestors of today's Russians spoke Iranian also.

Iranian and Slavic languages descend from a common "Eastern" branch of Indo-European languages, but you can't say that Russians spoke Iranian at any point in history, except for the Scythians and Samartians in southern Russia ans Ukraine (but how much of them became the ancestors of modern Russians ?).

LeBrok
03-05-10, 16:55
I was looking yesterday through some basic words vocabulary of Iranian and Armenian, and for a fist glance couldn't find any relation to Polish, Russian or Lithuanian. If not a word of experts I wouldn't guess that these languages were related, they are so different to me. My guess would be that the split between Slavic and Iranian happened about 5 000 years ago. 4000 or less would be pushing and would need strong outside influence.
If it comes to simple vocabulary Polish and Russian have more in common with German and Latin than with Iranian or others coming from Scythians or Sarmatians like Ossetians.
My conclusion is that Slavs for thousands of years resided on fringes of Scythia, most likely where steppe ends and forested aria starts, area of Czarnolas, the border of Ukraine, Poland and Belarus, with Balts farther north. They strongly interacted with Germanic tribes which preferred also forest areas. They also interacted with Celts, probably the Italic brunch, which had a very strong presence around Prague area (Czeks) till Slavic expansion assimilated them. Maybe even they bordered around Vistula river. After all Vistula is not a Slavic name and could be Celtic.

Joro
03-05-10, 17:35
I have been thinking about the presence of I1 and R1b in Croatia. I think that the most likely explanation is that both came during the Germanic migrations (Ostrogoths, Lombards, Bavaro-Austrians). I would need to know the subclades of R1b found in Croatia to confirm this. If most of it is R-U106/S21, then it will confirm a Germanic origin. If most of it is the Italo-Alpine R-U152/S28, then R1b has no relation to the Germanic migrations and I1 might have a different origin too. Unfortunately I don't have any study on Croatian subclades of R1b.
I think there is no doubt I1 came with Goths.
And I believe that Borreby phenotypes, common in Croatia, are also of Germanic inspiration.

Concerning R1b...well, Croatia doesn't have it excessively much(13%), which is in my opinion lesser than expected taking in consideration Geographical location of Croatia.Particularly in Dalmatia, where the center of Gothic settlement was.
R1b is highest in western Croatia- Istria, Rijeka...in town of Delnice 32% of R1b was found.
If Slavic migration didn't take part,i believe western Croatia would have about the same R1b level as north-eastern Italy(+50%).

Shetop
04-05-10, 01:13
“At the time of Attila the Hun a portion of Alans living in the "Sarmatia of the Cimmerian Bosporus" moved northwest into the land of Venedes (according to M.A. Sabellico, J.A. de Thouand some others historians[22]), possibly merging with Western Balts there to become the precursors of historic Slav nations.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#Alans_and_Slavs

I strongly believe this is how it was. There are several articles which cover this issue and with some effort it is not hard to conclude that this version of events is correct and actually confirmed by genetics data. What was a historical assumption, that origin of South Slavs is somehow different has now found even stronger foundation in genetics.

For me personally this issue is finished. I’m just going to shortly repeat what is already written in different sources. I’m just a bit surprised no one earlier connected Sarmatians and I2a2.

- There are sources which place Sarmatians in Sarmatia Asiatica even 1200 BC
- They spoke a language which belongs to Iranian group of languages
- Around 300 BC Sarmatians conquered western Scythians and their land was from Carpathians to Caspian Sea
- In 3rd century AC Goths (Thervingi and Greuthungi) established their ascendancy northwest of Black Sea and divided Sarmatians to western (Antes, Taifals and others) and eastern, that is Alans which included Croats and Serbs.
- In 370 AC Huns won their first war and it was against Alans. Some Alans were killed, some retreated and finished somewhere in western Europe, and some became major allies of Huns. These allies included Serbs and Croats.
- It is crucial to understand that Huns turned half of the Europe upside down and before and after them nothing was the same.
- Huns had a role for Alans and other Sarmatians that they conquered later (Antes and others) and it was to put under control Venedes (Slavs). Sarmatians were placed along south boundaries of Slavic tribes territory (Czech republic, south Poland and western Ukraine) and governed some of their territories to the north.
- In 5th century Alans (including, Serbs, Croats), Antes started speaking Slavic language.
- After Hunnic Empire had fall, it is unknown to me did Sarmatians preserve their domination over Slavic tribes, but it is clear that they did not significantly change their geographical position. First migrations may have been towards Wallachian Plain by tribes close to Antes.
- In 7th century these Slavic speaking Sarmatian descendents settled all over Balkans including emptied territories in western Balkans. Areas in western Balkans were abandoned because of Avar invasions and because Byzantine Emperor Heraclius wanted Serbs and Croats to settle there.
- The difference in I2a2 haplotypes (Dinaric South and Dinaric North) can be explained with assumption that Dinaric South descends from Alans and Dinaric North from western Sarmatians (including Antes).

I apologize to all forum members, but I’m not sure how available I will be to answer possible questions. Anyway please try to find the data by yourself. You will believe it more that way.

Maciamo
04-05-10, 09:15
I was looking yesterday through some basic words vocabulary of Iranian and Armenian, and for a fist glance couldn't find any relation to Polish, Russian or Lithuanian. If not a word of experts I wouldn't guess that these languages were related, they are so different to me. My guess would be that the split between Slavic and Iranian happened about 5 000 years ago. 4000 or less would be pushing and would need strong outside influence.

When I look at Slavic languages I can't see a lot of words in common with Romance or Germanic languages either (except recent loan words like 'television'). When I look at ancient or modern Celtic languages, I can hardly find any similarities between them and their closest relative, Romance languages. Yet, by deconstructing and analysing languages linguists have been able to retrace the "genealogy" of the Indo-European family and determine which language split from which and when. You are right, the split between the Slavic and Iranian branches is approximately 4000 years old. This is slightly older than the split between Italic and Celtic languages (around 3500 years ago).


My conclusion is that Slavs for thousands of years resided on fringes of Scythia, most likely where steppe ends and forested aria starts, area of Czarnolas, the border of Ukraine, Poland and Belarus, with Balts farther north. They strongly interacted with Germanic tribes which preferred also forest areas. They also interacted with Celts, probably the Italic brunch, which had a very strong presence around Prague area (Czeks) till Slavic expansion assimilated them. Maybe even they bordered around Vistula river. After all Vistula is not a Slavic name and could be Celtic.

This is in agreement with my views.

Maciamo
04-05-10, 09:23
I think there is no doubt I1 came with Goths.


The Goths originated in Sweden and therefore probably had a higher proportion of I1 (and R1a) to R1b than the Lombards or the Franks, who came from the western end of the North German Plain (near Frisia).

Again the R1b subclades will tell us more about the story. If there is little Italo-Alpine or Frisian R1b, but more subclades resembling those of Scandinavia then the Goths are the most likely candidate. If there is a massive pocket of R-U106 in western Croatia, then it could be an extension of the Lombard settlements from the hills and mountains of northern Italy.

Gusar
11-08-10, 14:24
There is Iranian theory of serbian origin but till now there is not genetic evidence for that. Because the early serbian dinasties emerged from tribes ruling castes it would be interesting to know their DNA. Everything else is a pure speculation. My assumption, according to genetic data and historical documents is that nowadays dinaric Serbs are descendents of White Serbs who were also I2a2 and who came to Balkan in 7th century. So to be clear I am talking about specific groups of Serbs which formed serbian medievial state and not about all Serbian nation which have more complex ethnogenesis.


Well you are not alone in this theory that is for sure. I for one support this possibility. So far in terms of accademics there is only one piece of pure and obvious Croat propaganda to proclaim I2a2 as Croat. First of all it's peak is in Hercegovina which is contemporarily and historically majority Serbian. Furthermore we can guess very confidently that its peak will extend into western Montenegro.

Gusar
11-08-10, 14:52
Threre is also an interesting theory that I heard.That Red Croats(Herzegovina,Montenegro,most of Albania) came from Carpathians, and that's where the second largest concentration of I2a is.
White Croats(modern Croatia and Bosnia) would come somewhere from southern Poland/Czech republic.

Interesting theory you heard? There is no such thing as Red Croats. There is only such a thing as Red Croatia which essentially represents west Roman Catholic aspirations. There is no ethnic connotation what so ever with Red Croatia unless all Serbs & Albanians are really Croats.

iapodos
11-08-10, 21:14
Well you are not alone in this theory that is for sure. I for one support this possibility. So far in terms of accademics there is only one piece of pure and obvious Croat propaganda to proclaim I2a2 as Croat. First of all it's peak is in Hercegovina which is contemporarily and historically majority Serbian. Furthermore we can guess very confidently that its peak will extend into western Montenegro.
The fact that I2a2 is much more prevalent in Serbs than in Croats could be very easily be checked if we analyze public Y search database. According to specific haplotypes there presented we can conclude that Serbs are more than 45% I2a2 and Croats about 35% I2a2. The croatian I2a2 surnames are mostly of Bunjevac and Herzegovinian origin. It is well known fact that Bunjevci are specific ethnic group of Serbs Catholics which were recently incorporated (not completely) in Croatian nation. So, as I state above I2a2 is very tightly conected with Serbs as nation. As a prove it is worth of looking two maps below.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Migration_of_Serbs.png
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

LeBrok
11-08-10, 23:10
What interesting is that where Raska, main Serbian is, it corresponds with a lighter spot on I2 of 5-10% (the second map), but where the Sorbs are there is a darker spot of 15-20%.

iapodos
11-08-10, 23:31
What interesting is that where Raska, main Serbian is, it corresponds with a lighter spot on I2 of 5-10% (the second map), but where the Sorbs are there is a darker spot of 15-20%.
Raska was just eastern frontier of the first serbian state on Balkan. Essential regions where Serbs were settled according to DAI were Zachulmia, Trabunia, Konavle, Pagania, Bosnia and Rascia. Later Serbian state mostly developed eastward conquering Byzantine lands. There is some more maps that shows the situation.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/20070716111140!Serb_lands_old_ver.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Nemanja_StefanP_Sebia200.jpg

Shetop
12-08-10, 08:06
I agree that connecting I2a2 mainly to Croats is wrong.

If we take the number of Serbs in the Balkans (they live in Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Croatia) and multiply it with percentage of I2a2 (respectively for each country) we get the number of around 2,500,000 Serbs with I2a2.

If we do the same with Croats (Croatia and Bosnia) the resulting number is around 1,800,000 Croats with I2a2.

Gusar
12-08-10, 15:24
I agree that connecting I2a2 mainly to Croats is wrong.

If we take the number of Serbs in the Balkans (they live in Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Croatia) and multiply it with percentage of I2a2 (respectively for each country) we get the number of around 2,500,000 Serbs with I2a2.

If we do the same with Croats (Croatia and Bosnia) the resulting number is around 1,800,000 Croats with I2a2.

:cool-v: Can you break down your method? I tried to come up with the same figures a while ago but gave up I think because some data was missing. Whatever the actual figures may become in such a breakdown though I think it's quite obvious that most I2a2's would be Serbs which is essentially the point you convey :good_job:

LeBrok
12-08-10, 16:46
Any idea when I2a2 got mixed with R1a1a7 and became Slavic?
Was I2a2 spreading together with R1a during Slavic expansion or was slavanized on arrival of R1a?
Looking at Slavic languages being so similar, scholars conclude that most likely it was one and same language 1 500 to 2 000 years ago, and it would mean that Slavs started in rather small area. If I2a2 was mixed already with R1a1a7, the way it is on Balkans, how one can explain rather I2a2 scarcity in Poland, Czech even Hungary?

Gusar
13-08-10, 12:53
Any idea when I2a2 got mixed with R1a1a7 and became Slavic?
Was I2a2 spreading together with R1a during Slavic expansion or was slavanized on arrival of R1a?
Looking at Slavic languages being so similar, scholars conclude that most likely it was one and same language 1 500 to 2 000 years ago, and it would mean that Slavs started in rather small area. If I2a2 was mixed already with R1a1a7, the way it is on Balkans, how one can explain rather I2a2 scarcity in Poland, Czech even Hungary?

Perhaps it is also important to consider actual population figures rather than only percentages. Using for instance Poland at 9% I2a2 there would be roughly 3.4 million Poles with I2a2. Ukraine would have roughly 5.5 million. That's more than the 2.5 million figure for Serbs given by Shetop and so I'm not sure if speaking of scarcity is such an appropriate description within such a context.

Shetop
14-08-10, 12:37
:cool-v: Can you break down your method? I tried to come up with the same figures a while ago but gave up I think because some data was missing. Whatever the actual figures may become in such a breakdown though I think it's quite obvious that most I2a2's would be Serbs which is essentially the point you convey :good_job:

Let's call this assumption of figures my personal because there are different studies and different percentages. I would like to avoid discussion about numbers.

Shetop
14-08-10, 12:40
I wanted to write my new view of historical events anyway, but LeBrook’s comments are a nice reason to do that now. It is actually unfortunate that scholars familiar with history of the Slavs are not using genetics to clarify some issues.
For me it was significant to have comprehensive theory about arrival of the Slavs to the Balkans so that is why I started this thread. At this moment I think that some of my first conclusions were wrong.

There were two things that couldn’t fit into the story:
1. Sorbs which live in the east Germany and have very high R1a. On the other side they are continuously related to Serbs which have low R1a.
2. Prague culture which apparently developed on the territory from which Slavs migrated to Balkans is by several archeologists described as conceived in region of Polesia.

After one member of one other forum pointed the Sorbs issue and again rethinking everything I think I was right about following:
Sarmatians (Alans) including Serbs and Croats did establish their domination over Slavs in the period of the Huns. It is also correct that those Sarmatian people accepted Slavic language as their new language.

But what I had wrong was determining prevailing haplogroups for those Sarmatians I2a2 and for Slavs R1a (or R1a1a7 later). Now I think that correct version is that Sarmatians (Alans) had R1a as prevailing haplogroup and Slavs had I2a2. The crucial point is that Slavs (I2a2 people) received new names form old R1a Serbs and Croats, not that numerous caste which apparently ruled over I2a2 people for unknown period. Explanation like this can be found in the book “The Sarmatians” by Tadeusz Sulimirski.

This is additionally supported by the fact that Krakow region in Poland which is marked by historians as the territory of the White Croatia has among highest R1a in Europe (similar as Sorbs). This R1a seems to be contributed by Sarmatians.

Similar story could be ascribed to Antes – originally Iranian R1a people which mixed with I2a2 Slavs and got Slavicised.

All preceding complies with data which we have from Ptolemy. This is Udaltsov interpretation of the Ptolemy’s text:

““This whole Scythia in the direction of the north, to the almost unknown land, is settled by the tribes which are called by a common name of Alans-Scythians, including Suobenoi, and Agathyrsi, and Suevs, then Aorses...”.

Suobenoi (Udaltsov – i.e. Suovens, or “Slovens”), and Agathyrsi (in Dacia), and Suevs (the German tribes, probably, Markomans and Quads in Czechia and Moravia) constitute a band of nations stretching from the east to the west, maybe, along the trading way from the Central Asia to the Middle Europe.”

http://www.s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/10_History/Ptolemy%20comments%20by%20Udaltsov%20En.htm

Further conclusion could be that I2a2 people may have been the “original” Slavs, in another word people which spoke Slavic languages first. North and northeast of them lived another group of people with prevailing R1a (today related to R1a1a7) and those would be ancestors of today’s Poles, Czechs, Slovaks. My assumption is that these people initially spoke Baltic languages and later received Slavic languages and that could happened some time before arrival of the Huns.

So some historians had already correctly understood historical events we just need to find out which one comply with the new data science have offered to us. All this implies that Polesia considered by historians as Slavic urheimat would be homeland of I2a2 people 2000 years ago. Later some of them migrated towards South so they received Romanic languages (Moldavia and Romania).

LeBrok
14-08-10, 17:38
Interesting, refreshing, a counter intuitive thinking with reversing hg for Slavs and Sarmatians,...I need time to digest it, when I'm on vacation next week. Very interesting.
cya

iapodos
14-08-10, 18:06
Very brave idea of Shetop but not without sense. As I understand he states that R1a in eastern Europe are of Sarmatian stock, and later he conclude that all neighboring people of Slavs were Baltic speakers who adopted Slavic language. What does not fit in that story is so numerous R1a population ( if it was ruling caste) and so little I2a population to be subjects of rule. I do not why, but generally people with I2a seems to me much more like those who rule than those to be ruled with. Carpatian Highlanders, Dinaric Highlanders. It has always been mountainious warlike sociaties. But that tie Baltic-Slavic could be very interesting, especially if we put R1a to Baltic and I2a to Slavic.

Shetop
14-08-10, 18:46
Very brave idea of Shetop but not without sense. As I understand he states that R1a in eastern Europe are of Sarmatian stock, and later he conclude that all neighboring people of Slavs were Baltic speakers who adopted Slavic language. What does not fit in that story is so numerous R1a population ( if it was ruling caste) and so little I2a population to be subjects of rule. I do not why, but generally people with I2a seems to me much more like those who rule than those to be ruled with. Carpatian Highlanders, Dinaric Highlanders. It has always been mountainious warlike sociaties. But that tie Baltic-Slavic could be very interesting, especially if we put R1a to Baltic and I2a to Slavic.

To clarify this issue about R1a groups. There were to groups:
1. Northeast of the Black Sea - Sarmatians (Alans)
2. North and north east of I2a2 people - let's call this people Balto Slavs

Only small portion of Sarmatians moved with the Huns (including old Serbs (Serboi) and Croats) towards central Europe. These basically military units had a task of controlling people North of Carpathians, mostly I2a2 people. They got Slavicised but they also transfered their names to a large part of I2a2 people. Their direct descendants today would be Sorbs in East Germany and also some of the people in the Krakow region (White Croatia).

Numerous R1a (today related to R1a1a7, Balto Slavs) 2000 years ago dwelled probably somewhere around Belarus and also received Slavic language in maybe even earlier process. In 5th or 6th century they moved towards Poland, Czechoslovakia...

iapodos
14-08-10, 19:05
To clarify this issue about R1a groups. There were to groups:
1. Northeast of the Black Sea - Sarmatians (Alans)
2. North and north east of I2a2 people - let's call this people Balto Slavs
Only small portion of Sarmatians moved with the Huns (including old Serbs (Serboi) and Croats) towards central Europe. These basically military units had a task of controlling people North of Carpathians, mostly I2a2 people. They got Slavicised but they also transfered their names to a large part of I2a2 people. Their direct descendants today would be Sorbs in East Germany and also some of the people in the Krakow region (White Croatia).
Numerous R1a (today related to R1a1a7, Balto Slavs) 2000 years ago dwelled probably somewhere around Belarus and also received Slavic language in maybe even earlier process. In 5th or 6th century they moved towards Poland, Czechoslovakia...

Possible theory, but what you need to prove it, is to show that R1a of Sorbs is some different R1a (of Sarmatian origin) than eastern european R1a. As I know there was only one testing on Sorbs which shows that 64% figure of R1a, but also 20% of I haplogroup.

Shetop
14-08-10, 20:42
Possible theory, but what you need to prove it, is to show that R1a of Sorbs is some different R1a (of Sarmatian origin) than eastern european R1a. As I know there was only one testing on Sorbs which shows that 64% figure of R1a, but also 20% of I haplogroup.

At this moment it is maybe impossible to prove it.

But if we know this - Krakow also has 64% for R1a. I am not aware of any other regions in Europe with that high R1a. These two regions are somehow special and I think that is because Sarmatians significantly contributed their DNA in them.

Ewgeni Martschew
15-08-10, 17:34
Hi folks(from Serbia and Croatia),

has been fun watching your consructive efforts trying to relate I2a to historically known ethnicities.

Summary:
1. An ethnic group located 4 -6 century AD north of the Black Sea;
2. May have been (part of) the Huns of Atilla;
3. Has relocated after 475 AD to Ukraine, northern Romania, Panonia, Belorus, Poland.
4. Had a lot to do with both Visi- and Austro-Goths.

Ewgeni Martschew
15-08-10, 17:39
Folks,

I was not done yet.
...
6. Spoke church-slavonic;
7. Had to to with Slavs in Ukraine, Romania, Panonia, and the Balkans.

And for the Croats: had brought the Glagolitza.

Who could have been that?

Regards

Neander
17-08-10, 18:11
I think I2a2 are Maurovlachs

They were accumulated in the west Croatia, exactly in the place where we can find hotspot of I2a2

Vlachs came from Moldavia-Romania where is another hotspot of I2a2.

Both were Vlachs.

Vlachs came together with Slavs.

Shetop
19-08-10, 17:14
I think I2a2 are Maurovlachs

They were accumulated in the west Croatia, exactly in the place where we can find hotspot of I2a2

Vlachs came from Moldavia-Romania where is another hotspot of I2a2.

Both were Vlachs.

Vlachs came together with Slavs.

Then I would have to ask you how did historians describe these people before they came to Balkans? Getae, Dacians or something else?

Btw, I disagree with your opinion.

Gusar
21-08-10, 15:22
If Shetops theory is correct then I think we would have to exclude a Sarmatian (Serboi) origin theory for Serbs since I don't think it would at all be possible for a smaller populace of R1a dominant people to dominate over a larger populace I2a2 dominant people.

Shetop
28-08-10, 15:54
This may be interesting - river Neretva in Northwest Ukraine (tributary of the Western Bug): http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B0_(%D0%BF %D1%80%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D0%97%D0%B0% D1%85%D1%96%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE_%D0%91%D 1%83%D0%B3%D1%83).

For those who don't know, Neretva is also name of the largest river in Herzegovina.

Btw, there are a lot of clues which are saying that Western Bug was a western boundary to the areas where I2a2 Dinaric people dwelled for centuries (before 5th century).

Haganus
29-08-10, 23:00
But I suppose that the Dinaric race had an origin in the Balkan and
maybe in Turkey. The actual Yugo-Slavians are a mixture of
invading Slavic tribes and ancient Illyric tribes.

iapodos
29-08-10, 23:49
But I suppose that the Dinaric race had an origin in the Balkan and
maybe in Turkey. The actual Yugo-Slavians are a mixture of
invading Slavic tribes and ancient Illyric tribes.

Dinaric race is one thing and haplogroup I2a2 Dinaric is other thing.
I2a2 Dinaric, especially its southern part, is quite young (2500 years old) subclade to be considered as autochtonuous on Balkan. Its high presence in Dinaric Alps could be result of high natality rate of newcomers.
Illyrians are much more conected with haplogroup E1b than I2a2.
According to haplotypes I saw, there is strong and obvious connection between Carphatian and Dinaric region.
So Yugoslavs could be considered as mixture between Slavs and old population (Illyrians, Thracians, Celts, Greeks and Latins) but only if we have on mind that majority of arriving Slavs belong to I2a2 haplogroup which is known as Dinaric only because its high presence in Dinaric Alps, and not as a place of its origin.
About 40% of Yugoslavs belong to I2a2 haplogroup.

Gusar
01-09-10, 05:26
This may be interesting - river Neretva in Northwest Ukraine (tributary of the Western Bug): ...

For those who don't know, Neretva is also name of the largest river in Herzegovina.

Btw, there are a lot of clues which are saying that Western Bug was a western boundary to the areas where I2a2 Dinaric people dwelled for centuries (before 5th century).

I have been told there are many Serbian related toponyms in Ukraine. I'd imagine that to some extent these are related to the territories of Slav Serbia and New Serbia established in present day Ukraine during the 18th century. Id also imagine this river name would predate those territories though.

YLLIRJANIngaYLLIRIA
05-09-10, 02:23
Only about 30% of Croats, 45% of Bosniaks, and 20% of Serbs belong to the haplogroup I which was the dominant (NOT the only one, but the dominant) Illyrian Y Chromosone.

The rest are foreign to the balkans, mostly slavic which belong to haplogroup R1a (which is found in most slavic countries like Russian and Poland)

Bosnians are the ones who posses the most indegenous Y DNA in the balkans (besides the people who were already indegenous like Albanians and Romanians) because about half of Bosnia is slavicized Illyrian Albanians.


Like the Serb said in a post a few above mine, the main Illyrian haplogroups were I2a2 and E1b which are 2 of the main 3 Albanian haplogroups, which proves it all.

iapodos
05-09-10, 21:02
Only about 30% of Croats, 45% of Bosniaks, and 20% of Serbs belong to the haplogroup I which was the dominant (NOT the only one, but the dominant) Illyrian Y Chromosone.

The rest are foreign to the balkans, mostly slavic which belong to haplogroup R1a (which is found in most slavic countries like Russian and Poland)

Bosnians are the ones who posses the most indegenous Y DNA in the balkans (besides the people who were already indegenous like Albanians and Romanians) because about half of Bosnia is slavicized Illyrian Albanians.


Like the Serb said in a post a few above mine, the main Illyrian haplogroups were I2a2 and E1b which are 2 of the main 3 Albanian haplogroups, which proves it all.

It would be nice if it would be true. I suggest you to visit few profesional forum groups specialized for I haplogroup:

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=results

When you read what profesionals have been working there for all this years, it will be clear to you that you lived in a fairytale.

Low freqency of I2a2 in Albanians is what make them genetically so different of South Slavs.

Zenati
08-01-11, 06:04
Hi to all of you folks,

First, let me congratulate you on the very interesting topic that you have developed.

In my humble opinion you have asked very interesting questions and proposed original and quite exciting answers.

However, there are some problems with your basic assumptions about both Sarmatians and Slavs, and their connection to the Balkanic populations.

First problem: you seem to think that the Sarmatians must have had a kind of modal Y haplotype, as it is the case for the R1a in the present day Slavic populations.

Second problem: you seem to imply that the fact that the majority of the present day Balkanic populations do consider themselves as being of the Slavic ancestry must be confirmed somehow on the genetic level.

About the first problem: after the end of the Indo-Iranian Scythian age, the Eurasian steppes have been ruled and inhabited by nomad confederations, which have been formed by different tribes of very diverse ethnic origins. It is in fact very well described by the roman authors when it comes to the Huns of Attila, who have been presented as a horde consisting of tribes of a very different ethnic background (Germanic, Alan, Ugric, Uralic, Turkic, Mongolic) unable to communicate in a single language, but named Huns after their ruling elite. The same was true of the Avar's horde, Genghis khan's horde and so on. The same was probably true about Sarmatians: they were not a single and unified ethnic group, but a tribal confederation of people of very different ethnic origins united under a single dominant clan: the real Sarmates. They might have had several different Y haplotypes, including the ones that you argue about.

About the second problem: Slavic migration from the current Pripyat region in the VI century A.D. was a migration of settlers intended on occupying the lands of the Roman and Byzantine ravaged by the centuries of wars, but not completely deserted by the indigenous population. This migration was in fact rather well accepted by the Byzantine authorities which needed the Slavic newcomers for the protection of the borders against the steppes nomads. The Slavs did not replace the indigenous population, they simply superseded it and in majority of the cases converted it culturally.

So it is useless to look for a specific "Sarmatian" haplotype, because it is quite possible that such haplotype has in fact never existed outside of a tiny elite in a huge nomadic confederation which included everything and anything that this elite was able to subdue.

And it is not surprising at all that R1a haplotype is not a completely dominant one in the Balkans, after all this region has had already a population before the coming of the Slavs, a population which has been converted to Slavic culture after many centuries of cohabitation with the Slavic settlers. This is the origin of the I1a haplotype: romanized Illyrians, Thracians and Dacians are the ancestors of these Vlakhs with whom the Slavs intermixed.

BTW, for me Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks are all the same people, produced by the interbreeding of the Vlakhs (all indigenous populationns of the former Byzantine border-lands) and Slavs. If it was not for religious divisions and the cultural shifts that these divisions triggered, there would be a single nation in the Balkans by now. So blame it all on the popes, mullahs and catholic priests and quit arguing about who of you Balkanic guys is the "purest" Slav... :grin:

Regulus
08-01-11, 06:30
Interesting and well-written.

I would note that the movement of Slavs from the Pripet Marshes at around that time seems to me to be a very likely scenario. I have mentioned before about the Balkan area suffering depopulation with the Romano-Gothic struggles, Huns, and later with the Avars, but do agree very much that many Balkan regions probably still had strong populations.

I had read once that many of these Balkan communities mounted successful militia-type defenses against Huns and Avars. The source (can't recall its name) also held that Constantinople gave the people a hard time for doing so. Apparently this conflicted with their policy of buying off the invaders. Maybe someone can jump in here with more details.

The picture of the southward-moving Slavs establishing their language and culture on these populations, leaving Albanian as the only holdout, could very well be accurate in my opinion. Prior to joining this forum and seeing the DNA maps which abound here, I had thought that Slav R1A would have been found not exclusively but in higher percentages in the Balkans. Yet another reason why I am glad that I joined.

iapodos
08-01-11, 11:35
First of all, there is no a single proof that I2a2Dinaric were in Illyricum during Roman times. If it would be so, there should be some I2a2 Dinaric haplotypes in France, Britain, Iberia, and not to mention neighboring Italy where I2a2 Dinaric is practicaly absent.
The region of I2a2 Dinaric today is almost exact region which were inhabited by Slavs in 6th and 7th century during their greatest expansion, and if you want to recognize Slav in today populations I2a2Dinaric is most secure marker for that. If you ask yourself, why is I2a2 Dinaric absent in Italy, the only answer could be: Slavic tribes never entered Italy. If you ask yourself why is I2a2 presented in Greece, even in Peloponesus, the answer would be: Slavic tribes occupied and setlled in Greek inland in 6th century.
There is no any connection with Illyrians and I2a2Dinaric. On the other hand R1a could exist on Balkan in some haplotypes before arriving of Slavs.
It is enough only to compare following maps and everything would be clear.

http://rpmedia.ask.com/ts?u=/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/00/Bulgarians_and_Slavs_VI-VII_century.png/120px-Bulgarians_and_Slavs_VI-VII_century.png

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

Shetop
08-01-11, 13:04
However, there are some problems with your basic assumptions about both Sarmatians and Slavs, and their connection to the Balkanic populations.

First problem: you seem to think that the Sarmatians must have had a kind of modal Y haplotype, as it is the case for the R1a in the present day Slavic populations.

Second problem: you seem to imply that the fact that the majority of the present day Balkanic populations do consider themselves as being of the Slavic ancestry must be confirmed somehow on the genetic level.


Thanks for the nice words.

I admit I had mistakes at the beginning. It was common to think Slavs were predominantly R1a so I tried to make story which would explain arrival of Croats and Serbs. One of mistakes for example was relating Serbian and Croatian migrations to the Hunnic period, and now I believe Avars played much bigger role in Slavic migrations as a whole, but especially for Croats and Serbs.

But the "Second problem" as you described it, is the premise I'm still holding to. As fellow forum member iapodos explained there is no reason to assume I2a2a-Dinaric was in the Balkans prior to Slavic migrations. You have a nice subtitle for your post "Dig deeper". The deepest clue I had, before I had known much about haplogroups is that majority of the people in Western Balkans did arrive in the Early middle ages. Maybe we do not know this or that, maybe I'm an amateur in some of these fields, but on the other side living in the Balkans, great interest in history of the neighboring people, visiting different parts of the region made people like iapodos and me believe that connection between I2a2a-Dinaric and the Slavic arrival is inevitable. Some researchers from the West are beginning to accept this, and I also have to say the whole thing is not my idea.

To all the arguments already written I will add the language issue.
Croatian and Serbian languages are clearly Slavic, and their roots do not come from the areas with significant R1a frequencies, but from Dalmatia and Herzegovina, exactly those areas with the highest I2a2a-Dinaric. This match between language and Y-DNA is very clear and to use the words of "how yes no" it can't be a coincidence. :)

Where are Sarmatians in all this. Well since I understood that history of I2a2a-Dinaric is less related to them I did neglect them a bit. I agree with your assumption of Sarmatian tribal confederations with people of different origin. The main question is how many of them did move from Russian plains towards west? In both of scenarios, the one with high number of Sarmatians entering Europe and the other scenario with not that significant Sarmatian migration, R1a seem to be important part of their Y-DNA. I'm not saying that modal R1a haplotype defines them, but for me it would not be strange that Sarmatians were predominantly R1a.

When talking about R1a, Klyosov did some interesting work:
http://r1a.org/3.htm
He is not much appreciated by some people for his stories about R1b, but when it comes to making some structure inside R1a haplogroup I see no one else close to his results.

iapodos
08-01-11, 13:31
I was writing before on topic http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26152&page=3 how the depopulation of Balkan in 6th century happened and how Slavs became dominant element. There is chronology:

"I don't know for previous periods, but depopulation of 6th century is easy to understand which way happened:
Till 533. it was quite stabile situation. Western part of Balkan (Dalmatia) was under Goths in Ostrogothic kingdom. Actually Ostrogothic kingdom under Theodoric was western part of Roman Empire with Gothic elite as ruling caste. The population in Dalmatia and Italy was still Roman with of course some Germanic minorities. Central part of Balkan was under direct Roman rule, as the eastern one.
535- Justinian I attacks Goths and Gothic Roman wars began
536- dramatic climatic change, little ice age
541. great plague, killing 40 to 50% populatian of Roman Empire
554- Romans finally defeated Goths, end of Roman Gothic war
558.- Avars came to Panonia for first time, allied with Slavs their making incursions in Dalmatia province
572.- Beginning of Roman Persian wars, most of Byzantine military moved to east leaving Balkan provinces without protection
577.-Slavs are already in Balkan provinces, they reach as far to Peloponesus
586.- Slavs were already settled from Danube to Peloponesus, Empire lost all Balkan inland
So this is a short history of Balkan in the second half of 6th century. It is obvious that previous Roman (Greek) population was already devastated with famine, plague, wars especially in Dalmatia which was always less protected part of Empire and more exposed to the intervention from northern barbarians.
Climatic change in 536. were recorded throughout Europe, and as we see real decline of Roman (Greek) power began with that year. Is it possible that Serbian legend about Greeks who leave the country because snow fall in July was an echo of some true story, story about crash of Roman Empire in Balkan and almost total change of its population."

And about Serbs:

"There were Slavs which definetely came before Serbs. Serbs came in 7th century and were parth of totally different migration. But much before the Serbs various Slavic tribes poured into Balkan provinces . At that tim Goths have already gone.This is the generation of arriving Slavs which could remember the dramatic climatic change in 536. and transfer it to Serbs which came around 620. The Serbs as I think were predominantly I2a2 Dinaric South and they settled among already settled Slavs which were predominantly I2a2 Dinaric North. Today, according to newest study there is about one third of North haplotypes among Serbs and Montenegrines and two third South haplotypes."

how yes no 2
08-01-11, 15:02
From what we know so far, Scythians were mainly R1a carriers....
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26058

Sarmatians are, according to sources from ancient Greece, offspring of Scythians and Amazones, which would make them R1a dominant as well.



Herodotus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus) (Histories (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histories_(Herodotus)) 4.21) in the fifth century BC placed the land of the Sarmatians east of the Tanais (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanais), beginning at the corner of the Maeotian Lake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeotian_Lake), stretching northwards for fifteen days' journey, adjacent to the forested land of the Budinoi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budinoi). Herodotus describes the Sarmatians' physical appearance as blond, stout and tanned, in short, pretty much as the Scythians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians) and Thracians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians) were seen by the other classical authors.[who? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words)]
As seen in Roman depictions of Sarmatians they are of caucasian types[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians#cite_note-9)
Herodotus (4.110-117) gives a story of the Sauromatians' origin from an unfortunate marriage of a band of young Scythian men and a group of Amazons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons). In the story, some Amazons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons) were captured in battle by Greeks in Pontus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontus) (northern Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey)) near the river Thermodon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodon), and the captives were loaded into three boats. They overcame their captors while at sea, but were not able sailors. Their ships were blown north to the Maeotian Lake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_of_Azov) (the Sea of Azov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_of_Azov)) onto the shore of Scythia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythia) near the cliff region (today's southeastern Crimea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea)). After encountering the Scythians and learning the Scythian language, they agreed to marry Scythian men, but only on the condition that they move away and not be required to follow the customs of Scythian women. According to Herodotus, the descendants of this band settled toward the northeast beyond the Tanais (Don) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_River_(Russia)) river and became the Sauromatians. Herodotus' account explains the origins of the Sarmatians' language as an "impure" form of Scythian and credits the unusual freedoms of Sauromatae women, including participation in warfare, as an inheritance from their supposed Amazon ancestors. Later writers[who? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words)] refer to the "woman-ruled Sarmatae" (γυναικοκρατούμενοι). However, Herodotus' belief that the Sarmatians were descendants of mythological Amazons is very likely a fictional invention designed to explain certain idiosyncrasies of Sarmatian culture.
Hippocrates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocrates) (De Aere, etc., 24) explicitly classes them as Scythian and describes them as "swarthy, short and fat, of a phlegmatic and relaxed temperament".
Strabo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo)[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] mentions the Sarmatians in a number of places, never saying very much about them. He uses both Sarmatai and Sauromatai, but never together, and never suggesting that they are different peoples. He often pairs Sarmatians and Scythians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythia) in reference to a series of ethnic names, never stating which is which, as though Sarmatian or Scythian could apply equally to them all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

Diverse physical description do suggest tribes of different origin. On other hand, main source of Sarmatians seems to be Scythians. So, they probably were doninantly R1a, but among them could have been tribes with other dominant haplogroups. E.g. Alani were likely G dominant haplogroup, as Osetians who are considered to origin from them are G dominant as well, and as there are clues that G in Iberian peninsula might be related to Alans...

Antes on other hand might have been I2a2...Their tribal name seems to be derived from the name of Paplagonia Eneti, same as name of Veneti is derived from Eneti.... Pahplagonia Eneti were pushed out from Asia minor to Europe in times after Troyan wars... it is known that they dwelled in Thracia for a while and than settled in Adriatic...


....at the present time, they say, there are no Eneti to be seen in Paphlagonia, though some say that there is a village12 on the Aegialus13 ten schoeni14 distant from Amastris. But Zenodotus writes "from Enete,"15 and says that Homer clearly indicates the Amisus of today. And others say that a tribe called Eneti, bordering on the Cappadocians, made an expedition with the Cimmerians and then were driven out to the Adriatic Sea.16 But the thing upon which there is general agreement is, that the Eneti, to whom Pylaemenes belonged, were the most notable tribe of the Paphlagonians, and that, furthermore, these made the expedition with him in very great numbers, but, losing their leader, crossed over to Thrace after the capture of Troy, and on their wanderings went to the Enetian country,17 as it is now called. According to some writers, Antenor and his children took part in this expedition and settled at the recess of the Adriatic, as mentioned by me in my account of Italy.18 It is therefore reasonable to suppose that it was on this account that the Eneti disappeared and are not to be seen in Paphlagonia. [9]
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0198:book=12:chapter =3&highlight=thracian,eneti
(Strabo)


Thus, in east Europe we do have large substratum of R1a due to Scythians and partially also due to Sarmatians.

East Europe is called Sarmatia, but that doesnot mean that all tribes living there are Sarmatian in origin. Same is with north part of west Europe that was called Germania, which doesnot imply that all tribes of Germania were Germanic in origin.

Notable example for this are tribes bearing names derived from Eneti: Vistula Veneti, Antes, and Adriatic Veneti. They live in Germania, on Adriatic coast and north of Caspian sea, which are probably settlements in 3 directions took by Eneti after crossing from Asia minor to Thrace.


Roman historian Pliny the Elder in Natural History (Liber IV: 96-97) mentions a tribe called Sarmatian Venedi (Latin Sarmatae Venedi). Subsequently, Tacitus in Germania (46) mentions Venethi; when comparing these to Germani and Sarmatae, however, Tacitus associates them with the former, stating that their habits are different from those of the Sarmatae.
In 2nd century AD, Ptolemy in his work De Geographia (III 5. 21.) mentions a people called Ouenedai along the southern shores of the Baltic, which he calls the Venedic Bay.
The historical document Tabula Peutingeriana, originating from the 4th century AD, separately mentions the Venedi along the Black Sea and the Venadi Sarmatae north of the Carpathians (see Gołąb 1992: 287-291, 295-296).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti

in fact, if we look at variance of I2a2, it is not strongest among Serbs and Croats, but in Slovenia (wider area of Adriatic Veneti settlement) and north of Black sea (wider area of Antes settlement)

If we look for locations of I2a* we find only 2 clusters of it:
I2a*-P37.2-Alpine in Veneto matching position of Adriatic Veneti
I2a*-P37.2-France in Brittanny matching position of Celtic Veneti
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap)


Who are Slavs? From what previous tribe(s) their origin?


in the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean.
Jordanes- origin and deeds of Goths
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html (http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html)

This suggests that early Slavs are of Veneti race, thus I2a2 dominantly. This is populous race, scattered in many tribes but chief are: Sclaveni and Antes.
Antes were living in Sarmatia and were considered Sarmatian. But their origin is same as the one for Adriatic Veneti and Vistula Veneti - they origin from Eneti.



Slavs originally appear in following areas
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Origins_500A.png/410px-Origins_500A.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg/483px-Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg


This, in fact matches pretty good spread of I2a2 with assumption that big part of west most wing of the spread did move to Balkans, which would match historically attested movmements of Serbs and Croats.


http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif


R1a on other hand shows no resemblance to shapes of early Slavs state...
Thus, this R1a comes from other peoples (of Scythian and Sarmatian origin) who were culturally assimilated in Slavs....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg


we can see people who dominantly originate from Veneti in same cluster in this picture:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TNLyVNbffHI/AAAAAAAAC0E/vsEQYTTobHQ/s320/Ystrclusters.png

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/clustering-of-european-y-strs.html
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TNLyVNbffHI/AAAAAAAAC0E/vsEQYTTobHQ/s1600/Ystrclusters.png

Veneti living both in Germania and Sarmatia, and Britanny, as well as related I2a1 present in south Europe could indicate that I2 was original carrier of proto-indo-European language...
which would explain weird saying that exists in Serbia "Speak Serbian so that the whole world understands you"

As for Croats, I think proto-Croats were Sarmatians, carriers of R1a with some G...they settled among Veneti in Carpathian mountains, accepted language, and formed big state of white Croatia...On other hand on the route between Adriatic Veneti and Celtic Veneti are Helvetti which could have been proto-Croat related people as well...

proto-Serbs are also still enigma...same as proto-Croats they could origin from Sarmatians who settled among Veneti, or could be Veneti in origin.
In addition they could have also been separrate group of people that Seneca calls Serians...


[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows. Seneca - Thyestes
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html (http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html)

Engima that perhaps genetics can resolve by looking in deeper subclades is potential relation of Serbs to Serboi from Caspian mountains, and to Pashtun Sarbans... as Sarbans do perfectly match spread of haplogroup I in that area, making big part of the arc of Serians from northwest China (Seres) to India...


Seres (Gr. Σῆρες, Lat. Sērēs) was the ancient Greek and Roman name for the inhabitants of eastern Central Asia, but could also extend to a number of other Asian people in a wide arc from China to India.[1] It meant "of silk," or people of the "land where silk comes from." The country of the Seres was Serica.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres


http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png
http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/images/maps/Pashtun_Confederacies_sm.jpg


Another enigma related to Serbs is that R1a in Serbia is ancient old, but not high in frequency... Compared to surroundings in Serbia is also unexpectedly high I1 component, and unexpectedly low R1b (more would be expected as previous inhabitants were Celtic Scordisci) , also there is some N which seems as displaced compared to suroundings that doesnot have N...

Garrick
08-01-11, 15:45
Only about 30% of Croats, 45% of Bosniaks, and 20% of Serbs belong to the haplogroup I which was the dominant (NOT the only one, but the dominant) Illyrian Y Chromosone.

The rest are foreign to the balkans, mostly slavic which belong to haplogroup R1a (which is found in most slavic countries like Russian and Poland)

Bosnians are the ones who posses the most indegenous Y DNA in the balkans (besides the people who were already indegenous like Albanians and Romanians) because about half of Bosnia is slavicized Illyrian Albanians.


Like the Serb said in a post a few above mine, the main Illyrian haplogroups were I2a2 and E1b which are 2 of the main 3 Albanian haplogroups, which proves it all.

For the Serbs this is not the exact data, I haplogroup in Serbia is 47,97%.

You can read:

Mirabal Sheyla et al,"Human Y-chromosome short tandem repeats: A tale of acculturation and migrations as mechanisms for the diffusion of agriculture in the Balkan Peninsula", American Journal of Physical Antropology, Volume 142, Issue 3, pages 380-390, July 2010

Serbia

I1: 7,8%
I2b1: 1,67%
I2a2: 38,5%

Total I: 47,97%

Other haplogroups Serbia:

R1a: 14,5%
R1b: 4,5%
E1b1b: 17,3%
J1: 0,6%
J2a: 3,3%
J2b: 1,7%
G2a: 2,2%
N: 3,3%
Q: 1,7%
H: 2,2%
L: 0,6%

Even take into account that Serbia populated by ethnic minorities (about 17%), it is clear that the I haplogroup is by far the dominant among the Serbs.


To whether the Illyrians originally I2 or E1b1b there are different opinions. On the Albanian sites can be seen that all the Illyrian tribes, including those in the region of today's Slavonia, considered as the ancestors of today's Albanians. Y-DNA researchs will actually be able to determine which tribes were I2 which E1b1b, but it is possible that the very notion of Illyrians be replaced, at least for part of the population (in the south of Western Balkan for E1b1b or in the north of Western Balkan for I2), and it appears a new term.

Zenati
09-01-11, 00:19
Thanks for this overwhelming amount of information, I learn a lot from you guys!

Now just a few points that I would like to clarify:

1) Veneds/Wends was the name used by the German tribesmen for all their Slavic neighbors. At the time of the German-Slavic coexistence on the fringes of the Roman Empire the Slavs and the Baltic populations were not yet separated, thus all the Balto-Slavic tribes were Wends for Germans. This word is probably a germanized derivative from Anty=Antes.

So who do we find among the descendants of these Wends? Lusatian Sorbs who call themselves Luzhckie Serby (yes they do) and whose Y haplotype is mainly R1a despite their long coexistence with their German neighbours.

And where did these Veneds/Wends/Anty live? Mainly on the territory of the modern day Eastern Germany where R1a is a very frequent Y haplotype.

Thus it looks that R1a was indeed the marker haplotype of the Slavic populations at the time of the Wends as it is now (in ancient cities of Russia: Suzdal, Jaroslavl', Vladimir R1a amounts to nearly 80% of the male population).

2) Welshes was the name used by the German tribesmen to describe their romanized neighbors, usually Celts, but also other populations acculturated and romanized under the rule of the Roman Empire.

3)Vlasy/Vlakhy/Vlachs/Valakhy is the term derived by the Slavs from the German's Welshes to describe the non-latin or non-greek citizens of Roman Empire and Byzantium with which the Slavs had a frequent contact in the border territories between Slavic lands and the Empires territory.

4) At the time of Slavic migration to the ravaged and depopulated lands of the Roman and Byzantine empires the romanized citizens of the border provinces were mainly of Celtic, Dacian, Thracian, Illyrian ancestry. So the Vlakhy are then these indigenous populations which have been romanized and then put into (forced) contact with the Slavic tribesmen which arrived to their lands. That is why the Romanian populations of present day Romania and Moldova (to name just these two territories) were called Valakhy in Russian even in XIX century and Moldavia was called Valakhia.

And what is the territory on which I2 haplogroup is the most frequently found? It is the territory on which lived the so-called Vlakhy= the territory of the romanized populations conquered and colonized by the Slavs.

So R1a is the marker for Slavs and I2 is the marker for Vlachs.

And Balkanic people are very often Vlakhs, which have acquired Slavic language and culture from the Slavic settlers during the fall of the Roman-Byzantine Empire.

Finally, in my humble opinion there is really nothing wrong with being a Vlach, these peoples are the natives of the lands which they inhabit now, they had a great and tumultuous history and they deserve a great deal of respect.Of course it is even better when you are a slavized Vlakh, this way you combine the best of both... :grin:

Shetop
09-01-11, 01:07
1) Veneds/Wends was the name used by the German tribesmen for all their Slavic neighbors. At the time of the German-Slavic coexistence on the fringes of the Roman Empire the Slavs and the Baltic populations were not yet separated, thus all the Balto-Slavic tribes were Wends for Germans. This word is probably a germanized derivative from Anty=Antes.

So who do we find among the descendants of these Wends? Lusatian Sorbs who call themselves Luzhckie Serby (yes they do) and whose Y haplotype is mainly R1a despite their long coexistence with their German neighbours.

And where did these Veneds/Wends/Anty live? Mainly on the territory of the modern day Eastern Germany where R1a is a very frequent Y haplotype.

Thus it looks that R1a was indeed the marker haplotype of the Slavic populations at the time of the Wends as it is now (in ancient cities of Russia: Suzdal, Jaroslavl', Vladimir R1a amounts to nearly 80% of the male population).


I agree large part of R1a was Slavic, especially ancestors of todays Western Slavs. I was trying to determine the correct position of this people in the antiquity but I was misleaded by those who ascribed Przeworsk culture to Germanic Vandals. This is why I placed R1a more to the North in one of the earlier posts. Later I investigated this further and I believe that Vandals may have been a part of this culture, but main bearers seem to be R1a people. So in general this point of yours seems Ok. This also means R1a was between Germanic tribes and I2a2a-Dinaric in the first centuries of common era.

But your conclusion about Vlachs and I2a2 is very week in arguments. In contains neither genetic analysis, nor essential historical determinants. That is no way to prove what was the homeland of I2a2a Dinaric, or was it Slavic or not. I'm a bit tired of repeating the same sentences so I will leave you with what you want to believe. There is a number of people here and in some other forums understanding the story about I2a2a Dinaric and it is enough for me.

Garrick
09-01-11, 01:19
Thanks for this overwhelming amount of information, I learn a lot from you guys!

Now just a few points that I would like to clarify:

1) Veneds/Wends was the name used by the German tribesmen for all their Slavic neighbors. At the time of the German-Slavic coexistence on the fringes of the Roman Empire the Slavs and the Baltic populations were not yet separated, thus all the Balto-Slavic tribes were Wends for Germans. This word is probably a germanized derivative from Anty=Antes.

So who do we find among the descendants of these Wends? Lusatian Sorbs who call themselves Luzhckie Serby (yes they do) and whose Y haplotype is mainly R1a despite their long coexistence with their German neighbours.

And where did these Veneds/Wends/Anty live? Mainly on the territory of the modern day Eastern Germany where R1a is a very frequent Y haplotype.

Thus it looks that R1a was indeed the marker haplotype of the Slavic populations at the time of the Wends as it is now (in ancient cities of Russia: Suzdal, Jaroslavl', Vladimir R1a amounts to nearly 80% of the male population).

2) Welshes was the name used by the German tribesmen to describe their romanized neighbors, usually Celts, but also other populations acculturated and romanized under the rule of the Roman Empire.

3)Vlasy/Vlakhy/Vlachs/Valakhy is the term derived by the Slavs from the German's Welshes to describe the non-latin or non-greek citizens of Roman Empire and Byzantium with which the Slavs had a frequent contact in the border territories between Slavic lands and the Empires territory.

4) At the time of Slavic migration to the ravaged and depopulated lands of the Roman and Byzantine empires the romanized citizens of the border provinces were mainly of Celtic, Dacian, Thracian, Illyrian ancestry. So the Vlakhy are then these indigenous populations which have been romanized and then put into (forced) contact with the Slavic tribesmen which arrived to their lands. That is why the Romanian populations of present day Romania and Moldova (to name just these two territories) were called Valakhy in Russian even in XIX century and Moldavia was called Valakhia.

And what is the territory on which I2 haplogroup is the most frequently found? It is the territory on which lived the so-called Vlakhy= the territory of the romanized populations conquered and colonized by the Slavs.

So R1a is the marker for Slavs and I2 is the marker for Vlachs.

And Balkanic people are very often Vlakhs, which have acquired Slavic language and culture from the Slavic settlers during the fall of the Roman-Byzantine Empire.

Finally, in my humble opinion there is really nothing wrong with being a Vlach, these peoples are the natives of the lands which they inhabit now, they had a great and tumultuous history and they deserve a great deal of respect.Of course it is even better when you are a slavized Vlakh, this way you combine the best of both... :grin:

Zenati
I respect your thinking, certainly with some additions and clarifications.

If Proto Dacians are I2a your opinions make sense.

One of problems is that there are thinkings that Dacians are E1b1b origin.

But let's just assume that the Dacians are I2a origin.

Proto Serbs are I2 also.

Dacians came under the romanization and Serbs came under slavicisation.

Means that if the Dacians and the Serbs would have the same origin, once upon a time Dacians and Serbs spoke the same or similar language, which was close neither Latin nor Slavic.

I people have come to the Balkans from Anatolia 25,000 years ago.

It is clear that original I language has nothing to do with Slavic and Roman languages.

It would be extraordinary to find old I Language.

A possible way is to study Vincians and other old Balcan cultures if DNA tests show they were I haplogroups.

Another way is to research words of familiar languages, it does not matter whether they are alive or not, like the Etruscan, people who are presumed to have belonged to haplogroup I.

iapetoc
09-01-11, 02:03
HAVE anyone ever thought that I2a could be the thracian one,
The big exist in romania moldova and croatia and even south, coulb be by the EX-THRACIAN empire that spread from adriatic to pontus and ucraine?
i mainly believe and suggest to searchers to search that propability,
it is more logic that I2a is the thracian than the slavic one,
besides according to myth Illyros went to illyria from greek Theba and illyrians were linguistic more similar to proto-Greeks than slavian.
on the other hand the quite enough E varietes in greece and among kossyfopedio and north albania proves that the myth is right and illyrians probably are the today north albanians and not the dinaric.
and modern arcailogists beliave that Thracians expand from adriatic to black sea and even far to moldova,
the propability is stronger when we realize that ancient greeks consider thracian the Dacians in romania.

Garrick
09-01-11, 02:59
HAVE anyone ever thought that I2a could be the thracian one,
The big exist in romania moldova and croatia and even south, coulb be by the EX-THRACIAN empire that spread from adriatic to pontus and ucraine?
i mainly believe and suggest to searchers to search that propability,
it is more logic that I2a is the thracian than the slavic one,
besides according to myth Illyros went to illyria from greek Theba and illyrians were linguistic more similar to proto-Greeks than slavian.
on the other hand the quite enough E varietes in greece and among kossyfopedio and north albania proves that the myth is right and illyrians probably are the today north albanians and not the dinaric.
and modern arcailogists beliave that Thracians expand from adriatic to black sea and even far to moldova,
the propability is stronger when we realize that ancient greeks consider thracian the Dacians in romania.

iapetoc

There is the theory that the Serbs were Thracians.

If Thracians were I2a it is much easier to prove.

Old Serbs were not Slavs and it can be found much evidence for it.

For example, Triballi and Moesians were Serbs and they were not Slavs, there are opinions that Triballi were one tribe of Thracians.

Iapetoc, your idea can be very real.

Today I2a in the Balkan is mostly in Romania (data differ), Serbia (about 1500000 men) and Bosnia and Herzegovina (about 1100000 men).

iapetoc
09-01-11, 03:33
iapetoc

There is the theory that the Serbs were Thracians.

If Thracians were I2a it is much easier to prove.

Old Serbs were not Slavs and it can be found much evidence for it.

For example, Triballi and Moesians were Serbs and they were not Slavs, there are opinions that Triballi were one tribe of Thracians.

Iapetoc, your idea can be very real.


greek history and mythology can help us a lot,
also studies from greece and byzantium,
for example the vlachs and the wallachins,
allthough we see a connection its fake
cause the vlachs come from latin village which in byzantium became villach-ion -> villach-> vlach,
in greece we have a lot of vlach but we determine them according their origin moesian-vlachs, alban-vlachs bulgar-vlachs romano-vlachs
most of them speak big% latin due to ex roman empire, but also have words and syntax different according their origin.
that makes different approach to the vlachs from the wallachs

about dacians Erodotus considers them the true archegonus thracians,
similarity about the land of thrachians and the land that I2a is spread and
illyrians according the ancient Greeks and the E-V13, E1b1b proves that the illyrians are the mountain albanians, and the ex yugo and romano-moldavian are more close to thracian, although the highest rate is in dalmatia,
numbers can be change the more the research and plural of elements grow
but so easy the spreading.

how yes no 2
09-01-11, 05:44
Zenati
Proto Serbs are I2 also.
keep in mind that that is an assumption... they might have been R1a dominant, or even I1, or E-V13... we do not know what was ratio between proto-Serbs and previous inhabitants in areas they settled in Balkans



Dacians came under the romanization and Serbs came under slavicisation.


again big assumption!!

Serbs might have been the source of Slavic language and culture...

e.g. early medieval manuscript of Bavarian geographer claims that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs origin from them... Schafarik interpreted this as Zeruiani = Serbs. In fact, this is in correspondence with Seneca's notes about Serians...




Means that if the Dacians and the Serbs would have the same origin, once upon a time Dacians and Serbs spoke the same or similar language, which was close neither Latin nor Slavic.

Seneca talks about Serians who rule over Dacians. Thus, those are different people.



I people have come to the Balkans from Anatolia 25,000 years ago.

again assumption...
we do not really know when I2a2 came to Balkan...
and if you talk about arrival of I than it is not about Balkan but about Europe, as there is no evidence that haplogroup I upon entering Europe actually settled Balkan... they might have just passed through it and settled Scandinavia...that would be first wave of I related to I1... arrival of I2 I would relate to Eneti being kicked out from Asia minor to Europe...



It is clear that original I language has nothing to do with Slavic and Roman languages.

really?
it is not clear at all... it is just an assumption....



It would be extraordinary to find old I Language.

perhaps proto-Indo european?



Another way is to research words of familiar languages, it does not matter whether they are alive or not, like the Etruscan, people who are presumed to have belonged to haplogroup I.
Etruscans are not likely at all to be dominantly I haplogroup...



Old Serbs were not Slavs and it can be found much evidence for it.

would you bother to name at least one evidence?



For example, Triballi and Moesians were Serbs and they were not Slavs, there are opinions that Triballi were one tribe of Thracians.


nope, Triballi and Moesians were Balkan people...whether they might have been same as proto-Serbs is at the moment in area of pure speculations...



Today I2a in the Balkan is mostly in Romania (data differ), Serbia (about 1500000 men) and Bosnia and Herzegovina (about 1100000 men).
you forgot Croatia, Slovenia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, central Ukraine, east and west Hungary...

I2a2 in Romania is perfectly explainable by spread of Slavs...
in fact, it is well known that until few centuries ago, many smaller areas in Romania were Slavic speaking... that is because Slavs settled massively throughout Romania, and for long time Slavic languages existed in parallel with Romanian, same as in west Balkan language of Vlachs coexisted with Slavic for long time (and it still does in east Serbia, and I think also in Macedonia). In some areas, Slavic prevailed, in others Romanian, depending on who was majority. That is natural process....

iapetoc
09-01-11, 11:50
I2a2 in Romania is perfectly explainable by spread of Slavs...
in fact, it is well known that until few centuries ago, many smaller areas in Romania were Slavic speaking... that is because Slavs settled massively throughout Romania, and for long time Slavic languages existed in parallel with Romanian, same as in west Balkan language of Vlachs coexisted with Slavic for long time (and it still does in east Serbia, and I think also in Macedonia). In some areas, Slavic prevailed, in others Romanian, depending on who was majority. That is natural process....

i have my arquements to that, according history, and as we know at that times history is more clear and scintific than a myth, maybe not as today,
when slavs as serbs came the problem was to pas or not donau (dunav) river. the permit to pass after many fight means a settlement and not a genocide of older,
also according byzantines in romania south, we dont have a big settlement,
instead more south we have the bulgarian invasion,
following history of East Roman empire we realiza that I2a is probably more close to ancient thracians than the illyrians,
the propability BECAMES MORE SECURE WITH THE ARCAIOLOGIACAL REVEALS IN BULGARIA,
the chance that thracian assimilated the romano-latin language, in strong roman-byzantine areas and the slavian one where invasions were serbia-bulgaria, sounds more realistic, than the illyric aproach,
the illyrians were tight to greek civilization than the north thracians,
the expand and grow of illyrians its same times with the greek, and a lot of illyrians lived in ancient greece, fact that can be explained by the big E1b1b1b that exist in greece and albania,
to that i must remind you that greeks made kingom even to india, but the greek genies are almost rare there today, that is why the greeks there were a rulers class and not majority of people.
may i remind you Erodotus names the dacian thracians,
and ancient makedonians push thrasians north and east, and also allied and assimilate paeonians,
if we look at history, the propability that I2a2 is the ancient thracian and serbs and bulgars were more a class of rulers, than a big devastasion, its more probable than the approach that I2a is an illyrian-slavic,
for the many of you i suggest to read greek, byzantine roman history,
and visit or contact with bulgarian and romanian arcaiologist to what their axis(αξις) brought to light

E-V13 can also found in greeks and considered as a proto greek, (ancient theba, arcadian-corintean- lellekes tribes) and invade to illyria by Illyros king of theba father of Dardanosmuch before the ancient battle of troy approach to 1600-1800BC

iapetoc
09-01-11, 12:18
about moesia may i remind you that Greek revolution started In Moesia and not in Greece as a byzantine revolt, moesians and wallachians and moldovan consider their nation more relative to byzantive and greek than the slavian,
your approach doesn't make sense according to greek-east roman history,
dacians even today believe that they are ancient thracians, that is also strong in bulgaria, the roman approach of seneca as a west roman only troubles can make,
for example romans name achaia a territory that has little to do with greek achaia,
named makedonia a teritory that has little to do with greek Makedonia
NAMED ILLYRICUM a territory that HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH ILLYRIA, nad more has to do with Thracians

iapetoc
09-01-11, 13:24
the problem is that although we have evidence about thracians the living lingua and origin is still under hard explore,
the propability Ia2 goes to thracian gives the E-V13 to the illyrians,
and opoosite, the probability of Ia2 goes to illyrians then the E-V13 goes to tharcians,
Here the lingua can help, cause both high ratio haplogroups (Ia2, E-V13) are near to ancient illyria and ancient thrace, but they are not so relative between them.
remember the Scordisci nation that for romans were considered celts.
who were they? ancient serbs? or ancient scodrans(albanians)?
the more light to that, the more we get better assumption

Garrick
09-01-11, 13:29
nope, Triballi and Moesians were Balkan people...whether they might have been same as proto-Serbs is at the moment in area of pure speculations...


how yes no
I will answer your every sentence from the post, but first I start of this.

Iapetoc is right that should be read Greek, Byzantine and other sources.

There are many, and many sources that confirm that the Tribals are Serbs and probably Moesians and other tribes (for which in turn can be connected with the Thracians, and I think that Illyrians were E1b1b, but their end point in the north was the middle of Montenegro; Roman province of Illyricum should not be identified with the territory of the Illyrians E1b1b).

I cite the translation of a text from the Belgrade newspaper Politika:

Tribals (lat. Triballi) in Serbian blood

They were one of the most powerful nations of Europe, and their continuity in our area runs from the thirteenth century BC

How about the Byzantine historians who say the Serbs are Tribals, and their rulers to the archons tribals? Eustathius, Bishop of Thessalonica, who lived in the 13th century when he described the arrival of Nemanja in Thessaloniki, announces it as "a great Archon of Tribals". Theodore Metohit for King Milutin says "the ruler of Tribals", while Alexius Lambin same ruler as "Archon Moesians and Tribals." Theodore Hirtakin Serbia called Tribalia and patriarch Filotej, who lived in the fourteenth century, Serbs called "Tribals and Dalmatians".

Information that follows is another in a series of confirmations that there are the connection Tribals and Serbs. Old country Nemanjićes, Zahumlje and Travunia (Herzegovina), has long been called Trivalia (Trivalija). Name Herzegovina appears as Trivalija or Tribunija and Travan. In Trivalia is, near Trebinje, and the monastery Tvrdoš whose first church built at the time of Constantine the Great, and the monastery has come to life later in the sixth century.

...
History of Tribals starts relatively early, with a period of transition from Bronze to the Iron Age, approximate 1,300 years BC. About them speak in fragments, and the earliest historians, above all the Greeks, in today's Serbia, or in the Morava, the Danube and Pannonia talk about Dacians, Tribals and Sigines. This is the period around the sixth century BC.

Territory in which Tribals lived in the fifth century BC, according to Herodotus, located west of the river Istkar in Bulgaria. Among other things, noted the following: "From the land of the Illyrian river flows northward and flows into Angro Tribalia river valley in the Brong and Brong joins the Istar." It is obvious that this is the South Morava River and the Great Morava River which flows into the Danube. In this way Tribalia valleys associated with the Danube and Morava.

...

Živojin Andrejić in his book "The Kings of Tribal" concludes that it is very strange that so many people as Illyrians, Thracians, Getty, Tribals and Moesians disappeared from the Balkans. Easily they could be beaten, and even more astonishing that the great struggles during the migration of people in this country does not mention. Their disappearance is totally unnoticed. Slavic wave of immigrants could not have been so numerous. And maybe share of Tribals, these ancient Serbs in our (Serbian) biological origin, is very significant, perhaps even higher than the Slavic. (We know in Serbia today there are I haplogroup 47% and R1a haplogroup 14%).

Nemanjićes, which the Greeks called archons Tribals, their genealogy in Serbian chronicles and genealogy of the Middle Ages performed by the Roman emperor Licinius (Likiniye) and Constantine the Great. Our sources for Licinius say he was a Serb, although little is known about him. In Karlovac genealogy writes: "Glagoljut truth Licinius was born a Serb, wise as Greek, and all served Serbian idol Dagon... Constantine dragged toward himself emperor Licinius of Serbian, he gave him his sister for wife Konstanze great Emperor Constantine."

how yes no 2
09-01-11, 13:54
..
Živojin Andrejić in his book "The Kings of Tribal" concludes that ....

I just checked who is Zivojin Andrejic...
http://sr.wikipedia.org/sr-el/%D0%96%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%98%D0%B8%D0%BD_%D0%90% D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%98%D0%B8%D1%9B


He has no education in history... he studied BSc program for teacher in art and finished it in 1977, and recently (2003) got MSc in history of art at University of Kosovska Mitrovica (??)... he works as a teacher in primary school...

no offence, but I would not trust a word of what someone with such a background publishes in his books about history... that is equivalent of you or me or most people from forum who are just hobbiest in history, trying to write book about history... so, even though there might be grain of truth in what he tells, he is defiently not credible source on those matters....

to compare it, it is as if a construction worker wants to write a book about quantum physics... he can do it of course, he can even publish it if he finds publisher and market, but what can be the quality and trustworthiness of that work?

work of Greeks authors he cites are much later in history than times of Thracians... Greeks may have at some points in history called Serbs Triballi, as people who live in what they know as Triballia, same as in Austro-Hungary Serbs were sometimes in offical documents called Illyrians.... but that doesnot prove anything as both references are much later than last metion of Illyrians and Triballi...


this, of course doesnot exclude possibility that Thracians were proto-Slavic in origin...as they did speak satem variant of IE....

Garrick
09-01-11, 14:13
I just checked who is Zivojin Andrejic...
http://sr.wikipedia.org/sr-el/%D0%96%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%98%D0%B8%D0%BD_%D0%90% D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%98%D0%B8%D1%9B


He has no education in history... he studied BSc program for teacher in art and finished it in 1977, and recently (2003) got MSc in history of art at University of Kosovska Mitrovica (??)... he works as a teacher in primary school...

no offence, but I would not trust a word that someone with such a background publishes in his books about history... that is equivalent of you or me or most people from forum who are just hobbiest in history, trying to write book about history... so, even though there might be grain of truth in what he tells, he is defiently not credible source on those matters.... to compare it is as if construction worker wants to write a book about quantum physics... he can do it of course, if he finds publisher and market, but what can be the quality of it?

We're not talking about him but about Greek, Byzantine and other sources which linking Tribals (and Moesians and other tribes) with Serbs.

As Iapetoc writes that one should read the Greek, Byzantine and other sources.

After all, long ago spotted the similarity of words Thracians (Tračani) and Rascians (Raščani).

how yes no 2
09-01-11, 14:23
After all, long ago spotted the similarity of words Thracians (Tračani) and Rascians (Raščani).

yes, I agree there that it is very likely that word Rascians is derived from word for Thracians.

In fact, it is other way around, word Thracians is probably corruption of word Rascians when trying to write it down in Greek language.

And word Rascians is also likely real origin of national name of Russians (legend of Viking Rus tribe as origin of their name is likely flawed as they relate word Rus to what was part of tribe of Varangians that lived among Russians..)

in fact, when we speak of Greeks, I believe that much of history is also encoded in their mythology...
Their gods of winds are Anemoi (in latin same gods are known as Venti = winds). Most important among those gods are Eurus (god of east wind), Zephyrus (west wind), and Carpus (son of Zephyrus). Zephyrus is said to have been born in caves of Thrace.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemoi

I map that legend directly to Russians, Serbs and Croats (as child nation derived from Serbs)...

if you also look into name used for Slavs by Germanic people - it is Wends, which is again closely related to words for winds in germanic languages....

so, possible order of events is that (V)Eneti settle Thrace after being kicked out from Asia minor (after Troyan war and some war expedition they undertook in coalition with Cimmerians - which seems to correspond in time and location with conquests of sea peoples). From Thrace they spread towards Adriatic (Adriatic Veneti), towards Vistula (Vistula Veneti), and towards area north of Black sea (Sarmatian Venedi / Antes). During that spread they probably absorbed much of R1a that was already there...as R1a is ancient old in Serbia, Bosnia and Macedonia (see work of Klyosov) and had spread from there towards east Europe and Asia before I2a2 Veneti moved to east Europe... Cimmerians might correspond to later Sarmatians...

According to Greek sources Thracians are most numerous people in the world, according to Jordanes much later Slavs belong to populous race of Veneti, that again fits well with number of Slavic people existing today and area they covered...

Btw. regarding your mention of historical record that in some point of time Serb tribes were having Dagon as chief God. Well, Philistines (Palestinans) are likely offspring of Pelast (one of sea peoples that might be related to Pelasgians of Balkan). Their God was also Dagon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon

Pelasgians are pre-Greek settlers of Greece. However, I have impression that they might have been dominantly E-V13, which is also pretty high in Thrace... while spread of I2a2 seems better suited to later Veneto-Illyrian tribes... high variance and low frequency of E-V13 tells us that it probably was on Adriatic before I2a2 arrived there... thus Pelasgians might have lived in both Dalmatia and Greece before areas were settled by Illyrians and Greeks....

and additional explanation that might be interesting for Iapetoc, who seems to be Albanian from Greece...

Dardanians, from whom Albanians (Arbaninans in medieval Serbian documents) might dominantly origin, are however probably only the very latest wave of E-V13 from Asia minor that settled Balkan rather recently...

in time of Troyan war, Dardanians lived in area of Troad...Teucers were original Troyans, but Dardanians also settled in wider area of Troad... Homer makes strict distinction between Troyans and Dardanians... main hero of Dardanians was Aeneas and many rulers of Roman empire claim to descend from him...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanians_(Trojan) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanians_(Trojan)

Garrick
09-01-11, 15:09
yes, I agree there that it is very likely that word Rascians is derived from word for Thracians.

In fact, it is other way around, word Thracians is probably corruption of word Rascians when trying to write it down in Greek language.

And word Rascians is also likely real origin of national name of Russians (legend of Viking Rus tribe as origin of their name is likely flawed as they relate word Rus to what was part of tribe of Varangians that lived among Russians..)

in fact, when we speak of Greeks, I believe that much of history is also encoded in their mythology...
Their gods of winds are Anemoi (in latin same gods are known as Venti = winds). Most important among those gods are Eurus (god of east wind), Zephyrus (west wind), and Carpus (son of Zephyrus). Zephyrus is said to have been born in caves of Thrace.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemoi

I map that legend directly to Russians, Serbs and Croats (as child nation derived from Serbs)...

if you also look into name used for Slavs by Germanic people - it is Wends, which is again closely related to words for winds in germanic languages....

so, possible order of events is that (V)Eneti settle Thrace after being kicked out from Asia minor (after Troyan war and some war expedition they undertook in coalition with Cimmerians - which seems to correspond in time and location with conquests of sea peoples). From Thrace they spread towards Adriatic (Adriatic Veneti), towards Vistula (Vistula Veneti), and towards area north of Black sea (Sarmatian Venedi / Antes). During that spread they probably absorbed much of R1a that was already there...as R1a is ancient old in Serbia, Bosnia and Macedonia and had spread from there towards east Europe and Asia before I2a2 Veneti moved to east Europe... Cimmerians might correspond to later Sarmatians...

According to Greek sources Thracians are most numerous people in the world, according to Jordanes much later Slavs belong to populous race of Veneti, that again fits well with number of Slavic people existing today and area they covered...

how yes no
There is no doubt that the Serbs are old Balkan nation.

And if Iapetoc is right, Y DNA testing of Balkan people in the past can determine, it is possible that the Serbs, Dacians and the Thracian have the same origin, and the Thracians are carriers I (I2) haplogroup.

However, the problem is not with the I haplogroup, or with the Serbs, with the Dacians, with the Thracians, Illyrians etc.

For example, for Illyrians can be determined by how far they stretched their territory, about that I will write more in next posts (Iapetoc is right, not to be confused Roman Illyricum as a territory with E1b1b Illyrians).

It is clear that the Serbs and today's Slavic peoples are totally different backgrounds, Serbs belong to the clan I who came from Anatolia to the Balkans about 25,000 years ago, and the Slavic peoples belong to the clan of R1a who arrived to Europe and the Balkans from Central Asia about 10,000 years ago.

The fundamental problem is R1a, whether they originally can be or not Slavs, since the big part of R1a today is considered as Slavs, and other related issues.

There are a number of contradictory hypotheses and controversies regarding R1a and Slavs that researshers can print hundreds of books and still would not prove nothing.

So, while some things are not linked and do not prove, the safest is that Serbs are treated:

• completely separately from the Slavs,
• as carriers I haplogroups,
• the Balkan natives,
• probably as the Thracians,
• associated with the Balkan tribes reported by Greek, Byzantine and other sources.

If we do so we are on secure foundations, as soon as we stepped on the Slavs and R1a are entering an extremely complex and contradictory matter where anything and nothing can be prove.

Imperium Romanorum
09-01-11, 15:41
Garrick you are posting some not proven theory
maybe we Serbs came from Mars...

how yes no 2
09-01-11, 15:42
how yes no
There is no doubt that the Serbs are old Balkan nation.
of course there is enormous doubt about that...
do not try to make ideology and religion from science...


And if Iapetoc is right, Y DNA testing of Balkan people in the past can determine, it is possible that the Serbs, Dacians and the Thracian have the same origin, and the Thracians are carriers I (I2) haplogroup.

Iapetoc is just Albanian trying to steer your views towards E-V13 being Illyrian and thus Albanian...they need proof of that in order to claim right on all lands of Illyria... that is their ideology that is supposed to keep fueling brainwashed Albanian youth with hate towards their non-Albanian neighbours in order to be ready to die in new wars against their neigbours...

I do not say that E-V13 is not related to Illyrians, as it might indeed be the case if I2a2 came to Illyria with Serbs and Croats or with Pannonians who settled emptied areas of Illyria (Dacians were a bit pissed off during their wars with Celts so they did thorough ethnical cleansing of Illyria, later Pannoni settled there...but were still called Illyrians as they inhabeted Illyria) many centuries before 7th century supposed arrival of Serbs and Croats......

btw. did you notice the sneaky remark about Scordisci being related to Scodrans of Albania...while there is no tribe of Scodrans, there is town of Skadar on border of Montenegro and Albania, that is by Albanians written as Scodra...

Scordisci lived in Serbia, Voivodina, Pannonia...on south all the way to Sar planaina (mountain in corner of Kosovo, Albania and Macedonia, that is named after them)... closet match among all tribal names to the name of Sar mountain is Serians....

however, Scordisci were Celtic... but R1b in area is minimal in Europe...
Scordisci are a puzzle as well... knowing that Greek wrote Slavs as Sclaveni, and mixed occasionally b and d sounds, I would not be surprised if Scordisci is corrupted version of Sorbisci...however, there is still Celtic ending... so we might think of celticized branch of proto-Serbs.... same as in Brittany Celtic branch of Veneti lived...

but that ios just an idea... not even a theory or hypothesys...
truth is we have no clue who Scordisci were, and what is history of proto-Serbs....
we can only make theories, but a theory should never be claimed to be absolute truth...



It is clear that the Serbs and today's Slavic peoples are totally different backgrounds, Serbs belong to the clan I who came from Anatolia to the Balkans about 25,000 years ago, and the Slavic peoples belong to the clan of R1a who arrived to Europe and the Balkans from Central Asia about 10,000 years ago.
I think you are wrong...
look at the maps I posted...

early Slavs were as Jordanes claims of Veneti race... so, in my opinion, they were I2a2 dominant... I think that perhaps I2a2 Veneti spread from Thrace in Adriatic (where Illyrians also similar and probably of same origin as Veneti), in Sarmatia (Sarmatian Venedi that is Antes), and around Vistula (Vistula Veneti). R1a was in all these areas before them as it origins from Serbia and has spread via Scythians and Sarmatians...Scythians were broken in pieces by Sarmatians, Sarmatians by Huns, Avars and others... so their remains just joined Veneti (who spoke same or similar satem version of IE languages) which caused fast spread of new nation called Slavs... but maps of I2a2 shows this spread while maps of R1a do not, which seems to indicate that core of early Slavs were I2a2 Veneti

who were proto-Serbs is hard to tell.... they might have been R1a as well, since Sorbs of Lusatia are among most dominant R1a people in the world....




So, while some things are not linked and do not prove, the safest is that Serbs are treated:

• completely separately from the Slavs,
• as carriers I haplogroups,
• the Balkan natives,
• probably as the Thracians,
• associated with the Balkan tribes reported by Greek, Byzantine and other sources.


nope, that is way too many assumptions...

Imperium Romanorum
09-01-11, 15:49
Illyrians
:laughing::laughing::laughing:

there is no evidence that they ever existed

I haplogroup are Europian haplogroupe...
......nation and ethnic community occurred in the early Middle Ages..not before!


Illyrians are comone name for all people thath live in Roman province Ilirya..not one nation or ethnic community

Zenati
09-01-11, 16:13
Hi Shetop,

I agree with your conclusion about Vandals and R1a.

I too have come to the conclusion that Vandals might have been R1a bearers when I read about the Y haplogroup sampling of the Algerian Kabyles. The Kabyles are the central Algeria mountain dweller Berbers which very often display north European phenotypes. According to the genetic sampling, the Kabyles have nearly 30-40% of the R1a Y haplotype. This makes them very different from the other Berber populations of the Maghreb which have insignificant levels of R1a. The area covered by the modern-day coastal Kabylia, with its' capital city Bejaia was the center of the North-African Vandal kingdom and Vandals dwelling in this area are supposed to have fled to the Kabylia mountains during the Byzantine retake of the African province of the Roman empire. It is thus quite plausible that Vandals have then intermixed with indigenous Berber populations. On the other hand the R1b haplotype levels of the Kabyles is similar to the level of this haplotype in other Berber populations. This would suggest that Vandals had high numbers of R1a haplotype and lower levels of R1b.

In fact I am would like to know more about the genetic sampling of the Y haplotypes of the Early Germanic human remains, I would suspect that the overall proportion of the R1a in them should be higher than in some of today's Germanic populations.

About I2a2-Dinaric we can simply agree to disagree.

how yes no 2
09-01-11, 16:14
Illyrians
:laughing::laughing::laughing:

there is no evidence that they ever existed

I haplogroup are Europian haplogroupe...
......nation and ethnic community occurred in the early Middle Ages..not before!

Illyrians are comone name for all people thath live in Roman province Ilirya..not one nation or ethnic community

I agree with this viewpoint only partialy...

originally set of related tribes existed that were by Greeks called Illyrians...
however, later the name was related to any tribe living in area of Illyria...

original Illyrians were largely destroyed by Dacians... while the land was later resettled by Pannoni and other tribes of different origin (probably by Veneti and Scordisci as closest neighbours as well)... as indicated in following historical record:



I shall first describe Illyria, which approaches close to the Danube, and to the Alps which lie between Italy and Germany, taking their commencement from the lake in the territory of the Vindelici, Rhæti, and Helvetii.7 [2]
The Daci depopulated a part of this country in their wars with the Boii and Taurisci, Keltic tribes whose chief was Critasirus. The Daci claimed the country, although it was separated from them by the river Parisus,8 which flows from the mountains to the Danube, near the Galatæ Scordisci, a people who lived intermixed with the Illyrian and the Thracian tribes. The Illyrians were destroyed by the Daci, while the Scordisci were frequently their allies.
The rest of the country as far as Segestica,9 and the Danube, towards the north and east, is occupied by Pannonii, but they extend farther in an opposite direction.


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0239:book=7:chapter= 5&highlight=
Strabo (63/64 BC – ca. AD 24) - Geographica

how yes no 2
09-01-11, 16:23
Hi Shetop,

I agree with your conclusion about Vandals and R1a.

I too have come to the conclusion that Vandals might have been R1a bearers when I read about the Y haplogroup sampling of the Algerian Kabyles. The Kabyles are the central Algeria mountain dweller Berbers which very often display north European phenotypes. According to the genetic sampling, the Kabyles have nearly 30-40% of the R1a Y haplotype. This makes them very different from the other Berber populations of the Maghreb which have insignificant levels of R1a. The area covered by the modern-day coastal Kabylia, with its' capital city Bejaia was the center of the North-African Vandal kingdom and Vandals dwelling in this area are supposed to have fled to the Kabylia mountains during the Byzantine retake of the African province of the Roman empire. It is thus quite plausible that Vandals have then intermixed with indigenous Berber populations. On the other hand the R1b haplotype levels of the Kabyles is similar to the level of this haplotype in other Berber populations. This would suggest that Vandals had high numbers of R1a haplotype and lower levels of R1b.


do not forget that it was kingdom of Vandals and Alans

R1a might also came there with Sarmatian Alans...
Sarmatians were offspring of Scythians and we know that Scythians were dominantly R1a... btw, there is too little of R1a in Iberia to be connected with either Alans or Vandals...

do Kabyles have some haplogroup I? and what about haplogroup G?

Zenati
09-01-11, 16:35
......nation and ethnic community occurred in the early Middle Ages..not before!

Hi Imperium Romanorum,

You are absolutely right, nations are artificial constructs which often do not overlap with human populations that they are supposed to describe. And of course the nations do not overlap with the human genetics. :rolleyes2:

Garrick
09-01-11, 16:37
Iapetoc is just Albanian trying to steer your views towards E-V13 being Illyrian and thus Albanian...they need proof of that in order to claim right on all lands of Illyria... that is their ideology that is supposed to keep fueling brainwashed Albanian youth with hate towards their non-Albanian neighbours in order to be ready to die in new wars against their neigbours...

I do not say that E-V13 is not related to Illyrians, as it might indeed be the case if I2a2 came to Illyria with Serbs and Croats or with Pannonians who settled emptied areas of Illyria (Dacians were a bit pissed off during their wars with Celts so they did thorough ethnical cleansing of Illyria, later Pannoni settled there...but were still called Illyrians as they inhabeted Illyria) many centuries before 7th century supposed arrival of Serbs and Croats......

btw. did you notice the sneaky remark about Scordisci being related to Scodrans of Albania...while there is no tribe of Scodrans, there is town of Skadar on border of Montenegro and Albania, that is by Albanians written as Scodra...

Scordisci lived in Serbia, Voivodina, Pannonia...on south all the way to Sar planaina (mountain in corner of Kosovo, Albania and Macedonia, that is named after them)... closet match among all tribal names to the name of Sar mountain is Serians....

however, Scordisci were Celtic... but R1b in area is minimal in Europe...
Scordisci are a puzzle as well... knowing that Greek wrote Slavs as Sclaveni, and mixed occasionally b and d sounds, I would not be surprised if Scordisci is corrupted version of Sorbisci...however, there is still Celtic ending... so we might think of celticized branch of proto-Serbs.... same as in Brittany Celtic branch of Veneti lived...

but that ios just an idea... not even a theory or hypothesys...
truth is we have no clue who Scordisci were, and what is history of proto-Serbs....
we can only make theories, but a theory should never be claimed to be absolute truth...


how yes no

You are right.

Of course the tribe Scordisci has nothing to do with E1b1b.

There are plenty of sources, including Russian, that Illyrians were E1b1b.

It is a haplogroup, which originally came from Africa (Etiopia/Somalia).

The researchers go further and reveal similarities in the language of the Berbers who E1b1b1b1 and the Albanian language.

If you want I can put many similar or identical Albanian and Berber words.

Shetop
09-01-11, 16:40
Hi Zenati,

Actually I did not write Vandals were R1a. Here it is:


I believe that Vandals may have been a part of this culture, but main bearers seem to be R1a people.

What I meant is that beside Vandals, R1a were part of Przeworsk culture also. And it looks like R1a people were majority there. This is also supported by Russian historian Sedov.

Though we don't agree in some of the issues I have to say I find your posts very interesting.

On the other side it is disappointing when I see my countrymen recognizing Serbs in every tribe which have ever lived in Eastern Europe.
But yes, it is quite logical Spartacus was Serbian. After all his name starts with 'S'.

how yes no 2
09-01-11, 16:47
@Garick
idea about link between Berbers and Albanians is interesting...


@Zenati
what are your sources for R1a in Kabyles?

on wikipedia their YDNA is as follows:
Y-Dna haplogroups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroup), passed on exclusively through the paternal line, were found at the following frequencies in Kabylie : E1b1b1b (E-M81) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E3b_(Y-DNA)#E1b1b1b_.28E-M81.29.3B_formerly_E3b1b.2C_E3b2) (10.36%),Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J_(Y-DNA)) (42.36%),R1* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA)#R1)(xR1a) (15.78%) (later tested as R1b3/R-M269 (now R1b1b2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)#R1b1b2))[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_people#cite_note-4)), J1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)) (15.78%), F* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F_(Y-DNA))(xH, I,J2,K) ( 10.52% ) and E1b1b1c (E-M123) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E3b_(Y-DNA)#E1b1b1c_.28E-M123.29.3B_formerly_E3b1c.2C_E3b3) (10.52%)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_people#cite_note-Arredi-5).

R1(xR1a) means R1 without R1a...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_people

Zenati
09-01-11, 16:49
do not forget that it was kingdom of Vandals and Alans

R1a might also came there with Sarmatian Alans...
Sarmatians were offspring of Scythians and we know that Scythians were dominantly R1a... btw, there is too little of R1a in Iberia to be connected with either Alans or Vandals...

do Kabyles have some haplogroup I? and what about haplogroup G?

You are absolutely right, Vandal army included a lot of Alans, I have also thought about this.

But Alans were less numerous than Vandals proper, which have been described as Germanic (although at that time the Germans, Baltic and Slav populations might have been much more intermixed and difficult to distinguish for the Roman historians). It is absolutelly true that Scythians have been overwhelmingly R1a bearers and that ancient Alans have probably been R1a bearers too even if modern-day Ossetians have a high proportion of G.

The evacuation of the Vandals from Spain to North Africa has been described as well prepared and complete, this may explain the small levels of R1a in modern-day Spanish populations (BTW these R1a remnants might as well originate from Saqaliba slaves in the Muslim Andalous).

There is no significant G or I haplotype in Kabyles.

Zenati
09-01-11, 16:59
how yes no

There are plenty of sources, including Russian, that Illyrians were E1b1b.

It is a haplogroup, which originally came from Africa (Etiopia/Somalia).

The researchers go further and reveal similarities in the language of the Berbers who E1b1b1b1 and the Albanian language.

If you want I can put many similar or identical Albanian and Berber words.

E1b1b1 is indeed the Berber modal haplotype and does indeed originate from the horn of Africa, Ethiopia or Yemen.

But this haplotype has spread all around the Mediterranean sea during the neolithic agricultural revolution. In fact it is the only Y haplotype fund all around the Mediterranean.

And the time of its' expansion the Berbers were not Berbers yet :grin:.

Please post the words that are similar in Berber and Albanian, I gonna show em to my Berber speaking friends (my Berber is quite poor because my Zenete ancestors have been thoroughly arabized).

Imperium Romanorum
09-01-11, 17:01
I agree with this viewpoint only partialy...

originally set of related tribes existed that were by Greeks called Illyrians...
however, later the name was related to any tribe living in area of Illyria...

original Illyrians were largely destroyed by Dacians... while the land was later resettled by Pannoni and other tribes of different origin (probably by Veneti and Scordisci as closest neighbours as well)... as indicated in following historical record:


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0239:book=7:chapter= 5&highlight=
Strabo (63/64 BC – ca. AD 24) - Geographica


...originally set of related tribes existed that were by Greeks called Illyrians...
however, later the name was related to any tribe living in area of Illyria...

I agree, but who are they in the end?
They are I2a haplogoupe...old europians dinarc!
Illyrians...are not their name..
...it is the name given to them..
Their real name is Slav or Serb

how yes no 2
09-01-11, 17:04
Hi Zenati,
On the other side it is disappointing when I see my countrymen recognizing Serbs in every tribe which have ever lived in Eastern Europe.
But yes, it is quite logical Spartacus was Serbian. After all his name starts with 'S'.
Spartacus is named after Sparta..

Actually, as far as I know area where Spartans lived have increased I2a2... not that I am saying that Spartans were proto-Serbs in origin...
but they might have been :)

now seriously, thing is that also 2000 or 3000 years ago most of east Europe (except for Goths covered area) did speak satem variant of IE languages, same as it now does...R1a and I2a2 are also not recent arrival from Asia...so, those are same people, speaking same languages, just their tribal names are different.... now they are various Slavic nations, before they were various satem speaking tribes as Thracians, Dacians, Scythians, Sarmatians....

but that is regarding Slavic origin...proto-Serbs are just a small part of that which is a puzzle that would be interesting to solve...

Imperium Romanorum
09-01-11, 17:05
Hi Imperium Romanorum,

You are absolutely right, nations are artificial constructs which often do not overlap with human populations that they are supposed to describe. And of course the nations do not overlap with the human genetics. :rolleyes2:

Just right
:good_job:

Europe belongs to the old European race I haplogroupe!
Others came from Asia ...

how yes no 2
09-01-11, 17:08
I agree, but who are they in the end?
They are I2a haplogoupe...old europians dinarc!
Illyrians...are not their name..
...it is the name given to them..
Their real name is Slav or Serb

that is assumption that may or may not be true... we just do not know...


Just right
:good_job:

Europe belongs to the old European race I haplogroupe!
Others came from Asia ...

hey do not be racist...
Europe belongs to everyone who lives there...

actually, contrary to existing theories, I think that haplogroup I might origin from Persia.... and that it has arrived in Europe from middle East via Asia minor in three waves: first one carrying mostly I2a1 settled south Europe long long time ago, and second wave with I1 settled Scandinavia long time ago, while I2a2 might have spread from Asia minor only recently in times around Troyan war...

Garrick
09-01-11, 18:04
Just right
:good_job:

Europe belongs to the old European race I haplogroupe!
Others came from Asia ...

Imperium Romanorum

I the percentage is highest in Bosnia.

But that does not mean someone from Bosnia or anywhere should write that way.

According Wiik (2008) I and Indo Europeans R1a and R1b are Old Europeans.

But every citizen of Europe is a European, regardless of the origin.

how yes no 2
09-01-11, 19:02
E1b1b1 is indeed the Berber modal haplotype and does indeed originate from the horn of Africa, Ethiopia or Yemen.

But this haplotype has spread all around the Mediterranean sea during the neolithic agricultural revolution. In fact it is the only Y haplotype fund all around the Mediterranean.

And the time of its' expansion the Berbers were not Berbers yet :grin:.

Please post the words that are similar in Berber and Albanian, I gonna show em to my Berber speaking friends (my Berber is quite poor because my Zenete ancestors have been thoroughly arabized).

actually, main distinction between Serbs and Croats is that Croats have significantly more R1a and Serbs significantly more E-V13....(btw. worth noting is that in same time according to Klyosov R1a in Serbs is ancient old, while the one in Croats seems to be much more recent one...)

so, proto-Serbs may have been E-V13 as well...

horn of Africa, Ethiopia or Yemen was part of Sheba and later Sabaeans kingdoms, and those are Serians who control the Red sea that Seneca mentions...

let me explain this


[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows. Seneca - Thyestes
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html (http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html)

Thus, Serians:
1) control Red sea
2) live in friendly relationship with Sarmatians in caspian mountains of Sarmatia Asiatica
3) live in Europe near Danube where they also rule over Scythians (Dacians in other translations)
4) live in arc of Serians that is big trade route spreading from northwest China (where Serians produce silk) to India

btw. worth nothing is that some Byzantine sources seems to refer to Serbs as to Sarbans, which identifies them to be related to Pashtun Sarbans (who are obviously key part of arc of Serians from north west China to India) and thus to Serians...



Seres (Gr. Σῆρες, Lat. Sērēs) was the ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) and Roman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) name for the inhabitants of eastern Central Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia), but could also extend to a number of other Asian people in a wide arc from China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China) to India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres#cite_note-0) It meant "of silk," or people of the "land where silk comes from." The country of the Seres was Serica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serica).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres

arc of Serians from north west China to India is clearly visible in spread of haplogroup I

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=361413&postcount=25)

and its key part clearly matches spread of Sarbans

http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/images/maps/Pashtun_Confederacies_sm.jpg

Serboi tribe of Caspian highlands (also known as Serbi and Siraces) are the Serians of Seneca who live among Sarmatians in Caucasian highlands...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serboi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serboi)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces)


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg/800px-Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg

problem is that spread of haplogroups I and R1a does not fit Red sea settlement (kingdom of Sheba/Sabeans)... so Serians might have originally been E-V13


horn of Africa, Ethiopia or Yemen was part of Sheba and later Sabaeans kingdoms, and those are Serians who control the Red sea that Seneca mentions... they might also be Sherdana sea peoples who attack Egypt, as Sherdana are related to toponym Serbonian bog (Serbonis/Sirbonis )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabaeans



The name of the Serbonian Bog (Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): مستنقع سربون‎) applied to the lake of Serbonis (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Serbonis&action=edit&redlink=1) (Sirbonis or Serbon) in Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt) relates to the Sea Peoples. When sand blew onto it, the Serbonian Bog appeared to be solid land, but was in fact a bog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog). The term is now applied metaphorically to any situation in which one is entangled from which extrication is difficult.
The Serbonian Bog has been identified as Sabkhat al [Bardawil], one of the string of "Bitter Lakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitter_Lakes)" to the east of the Nile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nile)'s right branch. It was described in ancient times as a quagmire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quagmire), in which armies were fabled to be swallowed up and lost.
The term Serbonian came from the name of the Sherden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherden) (also known as Serden or Shardana) sea pirates, one of several groups of Sea Peoples who appear in fragmentary Egyptian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt) records in the 2nd millennium BC.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples

important to notice is that Serbs might carry their tribal name after mythological queen of Sheba
as her name was known as Makeda in south parts of her kingdom (Ethiopia), which corresponds to Macedonians located south of Serbs, and ancient Macedonians south of Scordisci...
in same time she was known to Arabs as Balqis/Balkis which explains why in Arab influenced Ottoman empire whole area got name Balkan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Sheba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Sheba)


here is possible scenario:
from kingdom of Sheba they could have travelled to Asia minor and Balkan and merged there with R1a...those would be Serians of Europe which are perhaps Scordisci who are neigbours to Dacians (Serians of Seneca rule over Dacians) and whose name yielded name for Sar mountain....

later I2a2 Veneti might have settled on Balkan and merged with proto-Serbs in east and central part of west Balkan giving Illyrians, and with other autochtonous people in west part of west Balkan giving Liburnians and Adriatic Veneti....

Scordisci are known to have area of influence roughly matching ones of Serbs - from Sar mountain on south (border of Kosovo, Macedonia and Albania) to Slovakia and Czech republic...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

Dardanians arrived from Troad area of Asia minor to Balkan unknown time after Veneti and settled area that is now Kosovo, north east Albania and west Macedonia...they were nomadic people who did not live in houses which made Greek historians write about them as barabarians... they were last wave of E-V13 to enter Balkan...

and in fact if you look at attempt to make clusters of people with recent common origin...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TNLyVNbffHI/AAAAAAAAC0E/vsEQYTTobHQ/s320/Ystrclusters.png
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/clustering-of-european-y-strs.html
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TNLyVNbffHI/AAAAAAAAC0E/vsEQYTTobHQ/s1600/Ystrclusters.png

among closest clusters to the one made of south Slavs, Romanians, central Ukrainians and west and east Hungarians, are in fact Albanians, Asia minor and northwest Africa (that is Berbers)

while e.g. Greeks, Bulgarians and Macedonians first cluster with Egypt and Syria and only than with cluster containing Serbia, Bosnia,Croatia, central Ukraine, Romania and east and west Hungary, Berbers and Albanians...

this indicates that Bulgarians and Macedonians have strong Thracian component, and that Thracians were closely related to Greeks

while Serbo-Croat-Romanian-central Ukraine- east/west Hungary cluster and Albanians arrived more recently from Asia minor...Serbo-Croat-Romanian-central Ukraine- east/west Hungary cluster probably matches settlement of I2a2 Veneti on top of R1a, E-V13 and J layer, and second one probably matches settlement of Dardanians on top of E-V13 and J layer... term Illyrians is questionable as it has included both Dardanians and Veneti and some other tribes..

so it is also possible that proto-Serbs might have been E-V13 component that has among Veneti acquired I2a2...

alternatively, proto-Serbs might have been originally R1a (as R1a is dominant in Sorbs and has unprecidentedly high variance in Serbs) or most likely I2a2 (as this is by far most frequent group in Serbs).... thing is we just do not know... it is a puzzle...

strong argument against idea that proto-Serbs are E-V13 is that wide arc of Serians from northwest China (Seres area where silk is produced) to India is clearly marked by haplogroup I (today visible in Pastun Sarbans) and less clear with R1a as well...while E1b1b is only present in the hotspots on two ends of the arc
http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251224897794/home/E1b1b.png


so, it could be that E-V13 was class of merchants and goods producers situated on ends of arc shaped trade route, while haplogroup I were warriors who protected the merchant route... the merchants and producers might have originated from kingdom of Sheba and their tribal name could have been spread to part of haplogroup I warriors guarding this merchant route...


worth nothing is that Croats seems to always be as an echo of the Serbs...close and related, but diffferent... both have now dominant I2a2, Byzantian sources seems to relate them to Krevatas and Sarban in Caucasus (north of Georgia and close to location of Serboi), iranian theory of Croat origin places them in south most part of Afganistan which is part of I haplogroup arc just bellow Sarbans....

in Greek mythology, among wind gods (known as Venti in latin, which is likely related to tribal name Veneti, same as Germanic Wend used for Slavs is related to word wind) Carpus is son of Zephyrus.
but if Croats are derived from Serbs (as Zephyrus is father of Carpus) and have much less E-V13 than Serbs, this does suggest that E-V13 is afterall likely not the mark of proto-Serbs but acquired later...

this legend of origin preserved in Greek mithology actually indicates that proto-Serbs were key part of (likely I2a2 dominant) Veneti and that it was not the case that their merging with Veneti was rather recent... legend of origin also puts their birth place in Thrace... which is near areas with high variance of R1a (Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia) and I2a2 (north of Black sea and north of Adriatic sea)

in the end, worth nothing is that manuscript of anonymous Bavarian geographer from early medieval period claims that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it. Obviously this is a reference to state/area of influence of Serians as it covers huge areas of Euroasia. In historically recorded times, this state is likely already split in several not related parts...

Elias2
09-01-11, 19:19
I always thought that the people of the balkans were the original inhabitants mixed with whatever came from the eurasian steppes. This means slavs and other turkic peoples (bulgars, avars, ect.). It was a strategy of the eastern romans to allow nomadic people to settle in the underpopulated areas the balkans and christianize them. It seems that at least culturally, the slavic peoples would dominate, and spread their language. Culturally, at least for me, the differnce between bulgarians, 'macedonians', serbians, montenegrins, is very small.

iapetoc
10-01-11, 10:34
hahaha i m not an albanian greek, i am a makedonian true one with G haplogroup,

all started when i saw a video of bulgarian ministry of culture about thracians,
as i makedonian i know 3 small thracian tribes were allied and assimilated to ancient makedonia, but when i saw and speak with a dacian and an albanian about that i realize that Diomedes power was trully as homer desbribes it,
the languge of thracians is lost and only words we can found i believe not enough quantity, exept perhaps in area near dacia.

1st approach

on the other hand the dardanians, i read about illyros that make a big army and invade illyria but his son went and build (his son's son ilos)troy, and died there, then who the f.. where the thracians that fight in troy with troyans, the cold that found in bulgaria proves that thracians knew the metalurgy of gold, with a bulgarian historian i have talk he believes that thracians were cousin of hetit and achaic but not to the pelasgian,
the theory of black minoans and cycladetic is wrong cause J2 has the biggest ratio in greek crete and greek minor asia.

these i video that proves similarity

the difference is big in metallurgy but the custom is the same, to cover the dead king's face with gold, now the same custom have in egypt, that makes strong that E gene that came from africa knew that metalurgy,
part of the map of speads

E-M123 seems to go hand in hand with haplogroup G and J2, with the difference that G and J2 both reach their maximum frequencies around the Caucasus and Anatolia, where cattle, pigs and goats where first domesticated. Inside Europe, E-M123 follows more or less the distribution of E-V13, with the highest frequency (1 to 5%) observed in Greece, South Italy, the Balkans and the Danube basin, then fading towards Germany, Poland, Ukraine and Russia, where its frequency is under 1%.

According the above it seems that dardanian are more close to the ancient thracian genes, But numerically that does not make sense, due to very low ratio in the heart of ancient thracians cause herodotus sais that that they were the 2nd biggest nation after indians
and from makedonians we know that dardanians are semithracian semi illyrians,

2, the other aprroach

numerically the propability as herodotus mention of dacian being thracians, and as we know from ancient makedonians that thracian have tribal kingoms (the greeks have town kings, the thracians have tribe kings) and only in greek makedonia we know 4 (pieri paeonians migdonians and bisaltes) mean that hey were divided to many small tribes, and if ever unite that was at troyan war under king diomedes,
besides a war between tribali thracians and odrysean killed king sitalkes
and atheneans (xenophon) served seuthes II,
and as we know the scordisci nation i simply put wiki to that, and a map

and a big menu of thracian tribes


IT IS VERY INTRESTING HOW MANY TRIBES

the many celt invasion does not give so spread in such numbers, according history, but the I2a2 Has that, if we compare the spread from illyria to moldavia and even more then we have the exact according the byzantines.
For example, for greeks Illyria stops to cernagora (montenegro) after that is adra thalassa (adrias, dalmatia) although greeks build colonies in some dalmatian islands, for example parias from greek island of paros etc, dont give much data, here we take the roman data of languages and i m not a linguist but the position of celts and landuages as venedi and liburnian and the propability that celts were south than dunab in genes map, makes me believe that dalmatia is the sprink of I2a2 and the more north and the bigger influce,

that high ratio can be either by sprink in low population era, or after a genetical clean (genocide) of pre-devastasion (locals). i dont believe the second so lets look at the first.
we know that I is an entire european gene,
we see at the map what?
a) that the local I and the slavic R are almost 80% (¬%0 ¬30)
b) the small colonization of J2 (greeks) is almost near 0 menaing that that by sea it was either difficult or much crowded at the sea,
c )the almost low G although dinaric alpes, meaning that either the mountain is difficult either much habbited,
d) the quantity of E-V13 or another variant of E (for example the greek E E-M123) is almost as a common spread

the probabilty that in amount you can block a passage is obvius even almost genetically at that times,
venedi lingua and liburnia lingua can not be found so easily to opposite italy as Greek Roman and messapic,
Now i make a guess, I2a2 start mutation at dalmatia, had a small spead to italy and spread to east and the other balkan mountains gather again, ex. carpathean, ex Aimos (balkan) the other 2 big ratio is also near mountains, meaning that I population either loves to hide at amountains, either settles at mountains due to coresmos (full of)

then how they go to minor asia,
the truth is they went to asia through greece,
According greek History
only the makedonians push 3 big tribes to devastate there
first we know is Bruggi (phrigians) there report about their devastasion and move to today Phrygia wich today is as big as greece
second we know is the maedi, the bull lovers according aristoteles the ones that dance on hot coals, moved under pressure of makedonian and odyrsa to minor asia to maedobithynia.
third we know the bythyni and thyni who devastated in minor asia to bithynia,

so we have known devastasion 3 the number and 2 of them as big as to create a nation there the possibility that I2a2 reaches donau river and turn south,
and another one passes donau and change languge to the one is know as celt,
meaning that the origin I2a2 is thracian and the far from dalmatia the far the language from liburnia-thracian and above donau is named after as celt althouh it is thracian,

remember that is a tribe named as Boii
And a tribe of serdi

about the slavian entrance in south of danub, it will wise be to ask the religion one master,
in greece religius man know byzantine better,
personally i m not specialized in byzantine history, due to i m polytheist

1 approach

but as a so isolated nationality from rest slavs i believe that it is like greek invasion to india, in the beggining it was a invasion and 1st srpski
army and rulers class, 2nd christianization mariages and union with locals,
assimilation of I2a2 and E-V13 around to a state, creation of Δυσσανος

2nd approach a more northern celt I2a2 that comes thrue polland-slovakia gets slavic language and return back with a good percentace of slavian R,

i believe that I started in dalmatia, as i also believe that when a tribe becomes a state then the more genes you have due to assimilation of the before you,
also the bigger the data the bigger the statisticks

about scordiski remember that they are known as Celt meaning big I2a2.

iapetoc
10-01-11, 16:42
spartacus was a thracian, and any similarity with greek sparta has nothing to do, his fathers land was among today phillipopolis- plovdiv maedi tribe,
but the name spartacus is also known as kings of odrysea

the chance that odrysea in the east of thracians , adrysea at the west, does make a point?
i just thought that perhaps is a connction

iapetoc
10-01-11, 21:20
I disagree with your aproach to silk road,
allthough it is based very well asumed and have a basis
I personaly believe that
SLAVONIZATION HAS TO DO WITH THE AMBER TRADE ROADS
from baltic sea 3 roads down, 1 to black sea and ucraine
2 the road to italy and adriatic sea croats
3 the road to con/polis thessaloniki and africa, serbs
the road of silk probably has to do with 4 roads
1 is chegins han north road (Huns - bulgar-golden horde-tatarian)
2 the road of timur lan thrue north persia caucasus and to Pontus black sea (also tabriz pottery road_
3 the jerusalem road from south persia through syria to lebanon, and though jordania to Azotos
also the road of spices mainly the arabian trade
the obsidian road, the ivory road etc.

about the aproach srb from σηροβρωται (sirobrote-serobrote, silk worm breeders) have a chance, but in that case, the road from donau black sea to central europe is more usefull than the big arc around romania and persia.

about the pelasgians i strongly dissagree with the albanian theory,
pelasgian were from cycledetic civilization
the cycladetic gave 4 minor aeolian ionian minoan and pelasgian
the before cycladetic were arcadians lellekes lokroi argeans aetoloi etc pelasgian were the western ionic- attico thessalian J2, the ionic were the minor asia J2 the aeolians were the isslands and near thrace J2 and minoan was the south J2 crete
that theory comes a rich man that wrote a book with wich everybody laughs ,
cause he insists that albanians speak ancient greek and greeks speaks ethiopean.
the truth is that albanians came down in 1040 and since then more come

Garrick
10-01-11, 23:01
@Garick
idea about link between Berbers and Albanians is interesting...



E1b1b1 is indeed the Berber modal haplotype and does indeed originate from the horn of Africa, Ethiopia or Yemen.

But this haplotype has spread all around the Mediterranean sea during the neolithic agricultural revolution. In fact it is the only Y haplotype fund all around the Mediterranean.

And the time of its' expansion the Berbers were not Berbers yet :grin:.

Please post the words that are similar in Berber and Albanian, I gonna show em to my Berber speaking friends (my Berber is quite poor because my Zenete ancestors have been thoroughly arabized).


about the pelasgians i strongly dissagree with the albanian theory,
pelasgian were from cycledetic civilization
the cycladetic gave 4 minor aeolian ionian minoan and pelasgian
the before cycladetic were arcadians lellekes lokroi argeans aetoloi etc pelasgian were the western ionic- attico thessalian J2, the ionic were the minor asia J2 the aeolians were the isslands and near thrace J2 and minoan was the south J2 crete
that theory comes a rich man that wrote a book with wich everybody laughs ,
cause he insists that albanians speak ancient greek and greeks speaks ethiopean.
the truth is that albanians came down in 1040 and since then more come

For all of you who expressed an interest about this, the topic is set:

Berbers and Albanians, E haplogroup and linguistic similarity

how yes no 2
11-01-11, 02:04
I disagree with your aproach to silk road,
allthough it is based very well asumed and have a basis
I personaly believe that
SLAVONIZATION HAS TO DO WITH THE AMBER TRADE ROADS
....also the road of spices mainly the arabian trade the obsidian road, the ivory road etc.


whole idea is that Serians tried to make universal trade route by connecting China (silk) and India (spices) in arc, and connected arc to Europe (amber) via Caucasus and Asia minor and to Africa (ivory) via Levant and Serians of Red sea.. that is idea based on what spread of haplogroup I gives coupled with quote from Seneca....



[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.


Seneca - Thyestes
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png

Serians of Red sea are known as merchants:


The Sabaeans, like the other Yemenite kingdoms of the same period, were involved in the extremely lucrative spice trade, especially frankincense and myrrh.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabaeans

Btw. the area of main influence of Serians seems to be between Red sea on south and Black sea on north, Balkans on west and China and India on east

Note that Red sea = south sea, Black sea = north sea, as Iranian steppe people (Sarmatians) and Slavic people had color scheme for sides of the world in which red = south, black = north, white = west
(white Serbia = west Serbia, white Croatia = west Croatia, Belorus = white Russia = west Russia)
as a side note, strange is the name of Montenegro (Crna Gora) meaning Black mountain, which indicates originally it was location north of settlement area of Slavic/Iranian people who gave it its name that is preserved till today...this does not fit with theory of 7th century settlement of Serbs...



anyway, Serians/Seres/Serve of Serica in north-west China are also merchants


"From these the course (of the shore) makes a bend and trends to the coast line which faces the east. That part which adjoins the Scythian promontory is first all impassable from snow ; then an uncultivated tract occupied by savages. These tribes are the Cannibal Scythians and the Sakas, severed from one another by a region where none can dwell because of the number of wild animals. Another vast wilderness follows, occupied also by wild beasts, reaching to a mountain called Thabis which overhangs the sea. A long way from that the ridge of Taurus rises. The Seres come between the two; a race eminent for integrity, and well known for the trade which they allow to be transacted behind their backs, leaving their wares in a desert spot" (Pomponius Mela, De Situ Orbis, III, 7).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres


"They also informed us that the side of their island (Taprobane) which lies opposite to India is ten thousand stadia in length, and runs in a south-easterly direction--that beyond the Emodian Mountains (Himalayas) they look towards the Serve (Seres), whose acquaintance they had also made in the pursuits of commerce;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres

Siraces/Serboi of Caspian higlhlands are also merchants

They migrated from the Caspian Sea to the Black Sea region. By the late 4th century, they had occupied lands between the Caucasus mountains and the Don, becoming masters of the Kuban region. They were the first Sarmatian tribe to have contact with the Hellenic groups on the coast of the Black Sea.[2]
...
They and the Aorsi were merchants who traded with goods of Babylonia and India through the Armenians and Medes, with camels. They profited greatly from this, seen in their clothing attributed with much gold.[2]
...
They are believed to be the same or connected to the Serboi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces
thus, they migrated from Caspian highlands to Kuban region



The Byzantine Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitos, in his Book Of Ceremonies, calls the Croats and Serbs "Krevatas and Sarban"[citation needed], who were located between Alania and Tsanaria. Ṣārbān is also the name of a Pashtun tribe in Afghanistan, who are believed to be - at least in part - of Scythian descent or According to legend,Pashtun people, ethnic Afghans traditionally claim descent from the Lost Tribes....
http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Theories_on_the_origin_of_the_Serbs

As, I have shown many times Pashtun Sarbans match perfectly spread of haplogroup I in Avganistan and Pakistan...

Tsanaria is northwest part of MtskhetaMtianeti region in Georgia
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/MtskhetaMtianetiLocationinGeorgia.svg/250px-MtskhetaMtianetiLocationinGeorgia.svg.png

Alania is Ossetia
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Georgia%2C_Ossetia%2C_Russia_and_Abkhazia_%28en%29 .svg/676px-Georgia%2C_Ossetia%2C_Russia_and_Abkhazia_%28en%29 .svg.png

this is all in very close proximity of the Kuban region... Kuban region is south most part of Russia next to Black sea - imediatelly above Abkhazia on map above....

Btw. area between Tzanaria and Alania would be somewhere around north Ossetia... and this is half way between Caspian homeland of Siraces/Serboi and Kuban area to where they have moved in 4th century...


The Russians originally called the Ossetians Yas (ясы).
In Late Antiquity, records became much more diffuse and the Iazyges generally ceased to be mentioned as a tribe.
...
The Ossetians descend from the Alans–Sarmatians, a Scythian tribe.[12]
....
At its height, Alania was a centralized monarchy with a strong military force and benefited from the Silk Road.
...
Iron and Digor in the north became what is now North Ossetia-Alania, under Russian rule from 1767. Iron dialect is the literary and written language of the Ossetian language.
Digor in the west came under the influence of the neighbouring Kabard people who introduced Islam. Today the two main Digor districts in North Ossetia are Digora district or Digorskiy rayon (with Digora as its centre) and Irafskiy rayon or Iraf district (with Chikola as its centre). Digora district is Christian while some parts of Iraf district are Muslim. The dialect spoken in Digor part of North Osetia is Digor, the most archaic form of Ossetian language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians

according to
http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf

town of Ardon in north Ossetia has 32% of I and town of Digora has 13% of I while the rest of sampled Ossetians in both north and south Ossetia have 0% of haplogroup I


Ardonsky district in north Ossetia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/Location_of_Ardonsky_District_%28North_Ossetia-Alania%29.svg/190px-Location_of_Ardonsky_District_%28North_Ossetia-Alania%29.svg.png


all this clearly indicates that Serbs and Croats are likely to have originally been haplogroup I (I2a2) carriers.

The question is in what direction did they spread originally...did they recently come from Afganistan and Caucasus, or was spread other way around... All we know is that Seneca mentions Serians who live in arc of Serians from China to India which matches Pashtun Sarbans, the Serians who live among Sarmatians of Caspian highlands which matches Serboi/Siraces, he also talks about Serians rulling over Red sea which we can easily identify in kingdom of Sheba/Sabeans, however so far there is no genetic link to haplogroup I in Saudi Arabia...

and he also mention the ones living around Danube and rulling over Scythians (Dacians in other translations of same text)...thus neighbours of Dacians and living around Danube...this could be Scordisci...


The ethnic affiliation of the Scordisci has been debated by historians. Some refer to them as Celtic[4][5][6],Thracian[7] or Illyrian[8] or a Celtic mix of the above[9].The Scordisci were found during different timelines in Illyria,Thrace and Dacia sometimes splitting into more than one group like the Scordisci Major and the Scordisci Minor[10].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1/entity_94.html

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Celts_in_Illyria_%26_Pannonia.png

besides Scordisci there is another Celtic tribe with tribal name similar to Serians and Serbs


The Serdi were a Celtic tribe[1] inhabiting Thrace. They were located around Serdika,(Greek: Σαρδική or Σαρδῶν πόλις)[2]. They established themselves in this area during the Celtic migrations at the end of the 4th century BC. There is no evidence for their existence before the 1st century BC. They were gradually Thracianized over the centuries but retained their Celtic character up to a late date.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/ThracianTribes.jpg/300px-ThracianTribes.jpg




now obviously there is issue of language...
it seems that Sabeans spoke with Arabic language, Scordisci and Serdi with Celtic...
and for Serians of northwest China is written


These people, they said, exceeded the ordinary human height, had flaxen hair, and blue eyes, and made an uncouth sort of noise by way of talking, having no language of their own for the purpose of communicating their thoughts.
(Pliny the Elder, The Natural History, Chap XXIV "Taprobane")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres


what comes to my mind is Slavic word for Germans (also haplogroup I carriers), which literary translates as "mute, not able to speak"....so, perhaps haplogroup I originally did not have very developed language...

on other hand, hm, having no language of their own, might mean that they communicated in front of strangers only in foreign languages...

that would be a good survival tactics in ancient times - do not speak own language in front of strangers, as if language is secret to them they cannot infiltrate into your nation, and thus cannot find out e.g. about plans of wars or preparations for them...

or their language was proto-indo-european, so it was, by others who spoke PIE derived languages, seen as foreigners speaking their own language ...as in weird serbian saying "speak serbian so that the whole world understands you"....after all area of influence of Serians (and likely of I2a2) does cover very large part of indo-european zone... and together with I2a1 and I2b1 it covers west and south Europe as well...

Regulus
11-01-11, 04:35
I never knew the name of the Celtic tribe that settled in Thrace until now, only that it appeared to have been part of the La Tene migrations. I also think that the Sciordisi were Celts.
After leaving Italy following one of the defeats that they had inflicted on the Romans, the Cimbri in turn were defeated by Sciordisi. That caused the Cimbri to embark on one of their longer jaunts.

iapetoc
11-01-11, 12:35
hmm interesting idea,

the amber was the most expensive even more than silk before and at crusades time,
the amber of baltic sea was something that vikings use to trade, the normannd -west viking desent was near 800 1-2 centuries after slavonic desent south,
the viking invasion in ucraine same time,
the huns invasion was before and after slavonic desent south,

the time that happens slavonization its more like a return back and south

silk was more valuable after 1000-1100 AD and especially at 1200 AD,
THE ARABIAN TRADE WAS SAME TIME WITH AMBER,
arabs trade spises from south yemen, east africa zanzibar, and india
1. to west africa marroco and spain,
2. to byzantium
3 to italy though palaistine-lebanon
4 to north via black sea
5 to east iran,

when crusades started germans carried baltic AMBER as a valuable trade or gifts

Byzantines left trade inside their region but they wanted taxes,
the double road to Wienn proves that,
1 road was from baltic to ucraine and georgia and then to azer or turkmen
2 road was from wienn via donau to romania (east roman speakers) and then south to trebizond (east roman speakers) to armenia.
the byzantino-russian wars at crimea (ucraine) were about taxes mainly on fur

The furs merchant made strongly by rus via volga river and uralofinn or vikings in the east
and via normands in the west,
according the byzantines, Ucraine-Russ were from west north(Vikings) and not slavians
according byzantines the slavs invasion came 1rst and then chistinization and the name serbs of those that pass south donau after, and not the above,
the possibilty that serb is an inner or an outer name, i can't tell
example inner name Hellenes outer name greeks,

NOW FOR YOUR APPROACH,
the possibility that serbs came from caucasus makes a point only if albanian came also from caukasus,
CAUSE NEXT TO SERBOI IN CAUCASUS WAS ALBANOPOLIS (today chechenia)
the possibility that they came both same time !!!!!! IS VERY INTERESTING

but all these has nothing to do with my questions
cause that I wonder is
1. which is thracian DNA the e-V13 or the I2a2?
2. IF I2a2 was Thracian, were proto-slavonic people ???
3. the slavian dna is I2a2 or R?

iapetoc
11-01-11, 12:45
i also have to report that linguistica there is a big coonection among
shqipteria and ishqeria

Ivan
11-01-11, 16:16
Ossetians have highest % of G haplogroup beside Shappsughs 83,5%
What happened to 60-70 % of Ossetians of G2a haplogroup.
It seems I haplogroup detached from them to come to Serbia or Albania.

Ossetians believe that Serbs and Croats were just names of Alan iranian speaking tribes with warrior elite that merged with People from todays Poland and Germany creating White Serbia and Croatia. There were few of real Alans just like in Sparta where they were outnumbered 10:1 by the Helots (only few Spartans lived to reproduce, and today there are no more then 1% decending from them). So Ossetians claim, Serbs and Croats just inherted new style of fight and new names which they brought to todays Serbia and Croatia. Alan warrior elite, as they say, merged to existing R1a and I2b to become proto Serbians and proto Croatians.

This theory seems possible and some univesities teach this verion as most probable.


THE SARMATIANS were not a unified people, but rather a number of groups of nomad peoples of similar stock, who wandered generally westwards over the Eurasian steppe - the vast corridor of grasslands, hundreds of miles wide and some 5,000 miles long, extending from China to the Hungarian Plain. They spoke an Iranian language similar to that of the Scythians, and closely related to Persian.

Alans differed from other Sarmatians and they were probably mostly G people from Caucasusand todays Ossetians who are 60-70% G2a call themselves Alans. Ossetia is also known as Alania. Schythians were mostly R1a.

Todays Caucasus have somewhat distorted picture with Russians coming in Caucassus 1870 onwards and settling with Ossetians and in Circassia after they expeled 2 million Circassians to ottoman lands.

Just like first Russians that run away from Tzarist policies to live free, coming gradually from 1500 to Kuban and accepting Circassian dance music and a famous horses, garb and a way of life becoming known as Kuban Cossacks.

I also have a problem with Slavic laguage since Alans were iranian speaking like todays Ossetians.
This also speaks in favor of Polish Ukrainian stock that assimilated a few iranian speaking Alans.

I am aware of Serbian and Croatian theories that they link to Caucasus or Iran. They could probably be from Caspian sea planes not mountains (if they were Schythians or Sarmatians) or eastern part of Caucasus mountains together with Albanians, since they share I2b.

Ivan
11-01-11, 17:04
Ossetians have highest % of G haplogroup beside Shappsughs 83,5%
What happened to 60-70 % of Ossetians of G2a haplogroup.
It seems I haplogroup detached from them to come to Serbia or Albania.

Ossetians believe that Serbs and Croat were just names of Alan iranian speaking tribes with warrior elite that merged with People from todays Poland and Belarus creating White and Red Serbia and Croatia. There were few of real Alans just like in Sparta where they were outnumbered 10:1 by the Helots (only few Spartans lived to reproduce, and today there are no more then 1% decending from them). So Ossetians claim, Serbs and Croats just inherted new style of fight and new names which they brought to todays Serbia and Croatia. Alan warrior elite, as they say, merged to existing R1a and I2b2 to become protoSerbians and proto Croatians.

This theory seems possible and some univesities teach this verion as most probable.

Alans differed from other Sarmatians and they were probably mostly G people from Caucasus. Schythians were mostly R1a.

I am aware of Serbian and Croatian theories that they link to Caucasus or Iran. They could probably be from Caspian sea planes not mountains (if they were Scithyans or Sarmatians) or eastern part of Caucasus mountains together with Albanians, since they share I2b.

Ivan
11-01-11, 17:12
Why am I always sending these double posts?

I tried to put some pictures and links and it came out like a double post.

Ivan
11-01-11, 17:21
Stupid me, I didn`t realize that I need 10 posts to put some links

Garrick
11-01-11, 21:07
i also have to report that linguistica there is a big coonection among
shqipteria and ishqeria

iapetoc
Haplogroup us unmistakably leads to the place of origin, in the case of Albanians it is the E haplogroup and the land of Ethiopia/Somalia.

We can trace a movement of people across Sudan and Egypt and the bifurcation into two branches.

One branch of the tribes went to the West and was spread throughout North Africa.

Another branch of the tribes came to the Middle East.

Albanian people belong to the branch that has come across Anatolia to the Balkans.

There are some assumptions that an E branch from East Africa through the Middle East came to the Caucasus and later from the Caucasus through Anatolia to the Balkans.

But this is unsubstantiated evidence and one of the problems is that today there is no E haplogroup expressed in the Caucasus.

Links Albanians, Berbers, and the other E carriers of Sudan and Egypt is indisputable, and we can follow and connect the similarities in language, dress, customs and so on.

The attempts to connect Albanians with Caucasus are theoretically possible, if we assume that the E populations ranged from East Africa to the Caucasus and then there came to the Balkans, but we are entering a difficult area of speculation and very difficult verifiable statements.

You can read the topic:

Berbers and Albanians, E haplogroup and linguistic similarity

www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26169 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26169)

how yes no 2
11-01-11, 22:26
NOW FOR YOUR APPROACH,
the possibility that serbs came from caucasus makes a point only if albanian came also from caukasus,
CAUSE NEXT TO SERBOI IN CAUCASUS WAS ALBANOPOLIS (today chechenia)
the possibility that they came both same time !!!!!! IS VERY INTERESTING


I never said Serbs came from Caucasus...

I just notice the obvious: Seneca speaks of Serians in areas of Europe, northwest China, Saudi Arabia and Caucasus... those Serians are clearly identifiable as Sarve/Seres in northwest China, as Serboi/Siraces of Caucasus, and as Sheba/Sabeans in Saudi Arabia

...it is not clear who they match in Europe...perhaps Scordisci, Serdi...( Serdi might be just thrachanized version of name Scordisci as Serdi are Celtic and arrived to Thrace from area of Scordisci, and knowing that Greeks also used Sclaveni with c after S of Slavs..Serdi might easily be same as Scordisci...now it is mighty strange that those two together match pretty well location of Serbs)

Now my question is whether there is and what is relation of today Serbs to those Serians... So, I pinpoint that:

1) Serbs are called Sarbans by Byzantine emperor and identified by him to be the same as Sarbans who lived in area that is in fact in between Caucasian settlement of Serboi and later settlement of Siraces (who are thought to be identical to Serboi)..as Serboi are Seneca's Serians of Caucasus, this is indication that Serbs are Serians...

2) Serbs are around 50% haplogoup I

3) Pasthun Sarbans fits perfectly in arc of Serians from China to India and are distinguished from surroundings by haplogroup I (this distinction talks clearly of their settlement there from other areas)..Pashtun Sarbans have identical name with name that Byzantine emperor used for Serbs - this is again indication that Serbs are Serians...

4) Sarbans of Caucaus mentioned by Byzantine emperor as same people as Serbs are likely responsible for haplogroup I pocket in Ardon among Ossetians.....

5) same emperor historian (btw. I do wonder how trustworthy is history written by politicians) is the only historian who recorded "arrival" of Serbs to Balkan...his historical record is in fact made several centuries after actual times of this supposed movement...he claims that Serbs came to Balkan from land of white Serbia or Boika (likely Bohemia) where they according to him have always lived...and that initially they all settled in single town in Greece Macedonia, but than changed their minds and went to north... in fact Bohemia is hotspot of I2a2 and nearby are Sorbs... but as Serians are quite widespread over the Euroasia why would it be hard to imagine that small group of Serians from Bohemia settled among Serians of Balkan....


As you see, I do not claim that proto-Serbs came from Caucasus or from Afghanistan, as it is in fact much more likely that they settled Caucasus and Asia from Europe, as haplogroup I according to all relevant scientists seems to have been in Europe already in paleolithic period, while for example E-V13 and J2 that are dominant in Greeks came to Europe only in neolithic era...

besides we can see that Pasthun Sarbans are differing from surroundings by haplogroup I, obviously showing that haplogroup I is not native there... following its trace it is more or less clear that it have likely came to Afghanistan from Europe via Asia minor...

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png



As for Albanians, Caucasian Albania does match a hotspot of E1b1b in Caucasus (see the maps bellow)... but E1b1b is clearly not native there... so Caucasian Albanians were the far most spread of Albanians from somewhere on south... whether Balkan Albanians came from Caucasus Albania or from Asia minor is hard to say by genetics... I do think they may origin from Dardanians who are possibly responsible for hotspot of E1b1b in area of Troad in Asia minor... again there might have been settlement around 1040 of some Albanians from Caucasian Albania (via Sicily) among Albanians of Balkan....Albanians /Arbanians (as their name is in medieval Serb documents)/Arberesche (as they are called in Italy) are in my opinion likely to be offspring of Dardanias of Balkan... for me Arbanian and Dardanian are similar words, as Berber and Arber(esche) are...

so, this is a spread from south that divided in part that settled north Africa and part that went up the Levant to Asia minor... a wave also reached Caucasus resulting in Caucasian Albania

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/Aghuank.jpg/800px-Aghuank.jpg

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251224897794/home/E1b1b.png

Garrick
11-01-11, 23:45
As for Albanians, Caucasian Albania does match a hotspot of E1b1b in Caucasus (see the maps bellow)... but E1b1b is clearly not native there... so Caucasian Albanians were the far most spread of Albanians from somewhere on south... whether Balkan Albanians came from Caucasus Albania or from Asia minor is hard to say by genetics... I do think they may origin from Dardanians who are possibly responsible for hotspot of E1b1b in area of Troad in Asia minor... again there might have been settlement around 1040 of some Albanians from Caucasian Albania (via Sicily) among Albanians of Balkan....Albanians /Arbanians (as their name is in medieval Serb documents)/Arberesche (as they are called in Italy) are in my opinion likely to be offspring of Dardanias of Balkan... for me Arbanian and Dardanian are similar words, as Berber and Arber(esche) are...

so, this is a spread from south that divided in part that settled north Africa and part that went up the Levant to Asia minor... a wave also reached Caucasus resulting in Caucasian Albania



how yes no
And word "Dardania" is at the root Berber word with the true meanings of certain.

I can set in the theme about Berbers and Albanians with the source.

how yes no 2
12-01-11, 01:56
Areas with increased frequencies of haplogroup I can easily be matched to locations of Serboi/Serbi in Caspian area and to Kuban region in Black sea area to which Siraces migrated from the Caspian area......

Siraces

They migrated from the Caspian Sea to the Black Sea region. By the late 4th century, they had occupied lands between the Caucasus mountains and the Don, becoming masters of the Kuban region. They were the first Sarmatian tribe to have contact with the Hellenic groups on the coast of the Black Sea.[2]....They were the most hellenized of the Sarmatians, and maintained good relations with the Bosporans.[2].....They are believed to be the same or connected to the Serboi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg/800px-Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png

iapetoc
12-01-11, 02:10
So you agree with my point of view,

1 serdi or scordici or Boii(bohemia) possible proto-serbs were celts or thracian, that migrated to north of dunab in late roman times or early christians time, and came south under push of baltic slavs at amber time trade but slavonized,
2 Or the slavs that pass donau were a small migration in number but their influence was bigger and slavonize locals all croats bosnian serbs, and even game them names from caucas origin,
now about thracians or celts,
were they share the same DNA were they same lingua?
the chance that thracians speak slavonic?

how yes no 2
12-01-11, 02:32
So you agree with my point of view,

serdi or scordici or Boii(bohemia) possible proto-serbs were celts or thracian, that migrated to north of dunab in late roman times or early christians time, and came south under push of baltic slavs at amber time trade but slavonized, or the slavs that pass donau were a small migration in number but their influence was bigger and slavonize locals all croats bosnian serbs, and even game them names from caucas origin,
now about thracians or celts,
were they share the same DNA were they same lingua?
the chance that thracians speak slavonic?

yes, that is possible
proto-Serbs could have been Celtic...
we have same thing with related Veneti who are known to have been Celtic in Brittany

hm, lol, to imagine Serbs as Celtic, hear some Celtic inspired music from Serbia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEt2XdN_TbQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0IbWSPUJa8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osS0lqs9JV8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bddw4ZmDRVQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq69RXpun5Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Whnrq5u-2kU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKiIpFN4ufw

iapetoc
12-01-11, 03:41
then we agree that thracian were celts, since proto serbs were celts(although cultura druga), so we have a common sprink of I2a2 in dalmatia, and a possible music influence in womans polyphonic voice, example
here is some east celt music

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51ROvTlKQNg&feature=related (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51ROvTlKQNg&feature=related)
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH1I3UZiUz8&feature=related (http://http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH1I3UZiUz8&feature=related)
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VErP_lmSTJs&feature=related (http://http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=VErP_lmSTJs&feature=related)
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9G7m-QSp8U&feature=related (http://http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9G7m-QSp8U&feature=related)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GggkMXk-io&feature=related (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GggkMXk-io&feature=related)

and the last special due to instrument
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czV18fCr_rc&feature=related (http://http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=czV18fCr_rc&feature=related)

iapetoc
12-01-11, 04:11
I agree with you in a point,
the fact that serbi krevatas and albania names are also found in Aimos peninsula (only bosna misses) , as also same times Iberian (georgia) Emperror in Byzantine,Has nothing to due with Haplogroups,
the probality is that given either by slavs to older celtic tribes of balkans, either by Con/polis Iberian emperrors,
about dardania arba or alba, the sicily arbers it is proved that there From greek peloponese at ottomans empire, That is fact and not from there to albania,
also notice that geneticaly west albania is full of J2 when dardania is full of E-V13,

how yes no 2
12-01-11, 23:24
yes, that is possible
proto-Serbs could have been Celtic...
we have same thing with related Veneti who are known to have been Celtic in Brittany



The Scordisci (Greek,"Σκορδίσκοι") were an ancient Celtic tribe centered in what would become the Roman Provinces of lower Pannonia, Moesia and present-day Serbia at the confluence of the Savus[1] (Sava), Dravus[2] (Drava) and Danube rivers. They were historically notable from the beginning of the third century BC until the turn of the common era. At their zenith, their influence stretched over regions comprising parts of the present-day Austria, Croatia, Hungary, Serbia, Slovenia, Slovakia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Their tribal name may be connected to the name of the Scordus[3] mountain (Šar mountain) which was located between the regions of Illyria and Paionia.

The ethnic affiliation of the Scordisci has been debated by historians. Some refer to them as Celtic[4][5][6],Thracian[7] or Illyrian[8] or a Celtic mix of the above[9].The Scordisci were found during different timelines in Illyria,Thrace and Dacia sometimes splitting into more than one group like the Scordisci Major and the Scordisci Minor[10].
Andras Mocsy clarifies their ethnic character, suggesting that they were not a Celtic tribe per se, but a "Celtic political creation"[11]. They were formed after 278 BC, as some of the survivors of the Celtic invasions of Greece settled the abovementioned region[12] imposing themselves as a thin, yet powerful, ruling class. Rather quickly, they were subsumed by the numerically superior natives, although the Celtic tribal name was retained, albeit the Illyricized version Scordistae[13] was often used after the 2nd century BC[14] According to onosmatic evidence, Scordiscan settlements to the east of the Morava river were Thracianized[15].
Extensive La Tene type finds, of local production, are noted in Pannonia as well as northern Moesia Superior, attesting to the concentration of Celtic settlements and cultural contacts. However, such finds south of the Sava river are scarce[16].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

Scordisci have sphere of influence all the way to Slovakia...just step further is Bohemia with Celtic Boii....Scordisci are assumed to be Celts who settled area after Celtic attempt to spread to Greece...now we know that in that spread the tribe that entered Thrace were Serdi... but could origin of spread have been Celtic Boii?

According to Byzantine emperor who wrote down about settlement of Serbs several centuries after such a supposed settlement took place


"The Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called 'white', who live beyond Turkey in a place called by them Boiki, where their neighbour is Francia, as is also Great Croatia, the unbaptized, also called 'white': in this place, then, these Serbs also originally dwelt.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=inauthor%3A%22Constantine%20VII%20Porphyrogenit us%20(Emperor%20of%20the%20East)%22&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

now proto-Serbs originally dwelt in Bohemia, but Bohemia is named after Celtic Boii as this tribe has originally dwelt there... can proto-Serbs be same as Boii?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Boians.png/800px-Boians.png




if we go back to the motive of white cross on red background..it is motive shared between Denmark, Swiss and Serbia...(http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362715&postcount=101)

Cimbri could be the origin of motive in Denmark....


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Cimbrians_and_Teutons_invasions.svg/300px-Cimbrians_and_Teutons_invasions.svg.png



Most ancient sources categorize the Cimbri as a Germanic tribe,[13] but some ancient authors include the Cimbri among the Celts.[14]
.....
The known Cimbri chiefs have names that look Celtic, including Boiorix (which may mean "King of the Boii" or, more literally, "King of Strikers"), Gaesorix (which means "Spear King"), and Lugius (which may be named after the Celtic god Lugus), although this may not mean that they are Celtic as the elements could work in Germanic[19]. ....
Jean Markale[21] wrote that the Cimbri were associated with the Helvetii, and more especially with the indisputably Celtic Tigurini. These associations may link to a common ancestry, recalled from two hundred years previous, though they may not. Henri Hubert[22] states "All these names are Celtic, and they cannot be anything else". Some authors take a different perspective[23]. For example, Peter S. Wells[24] states that the Cimbri "are certainly not Celts".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbri

let's pay attention to those king names... all 3 seems to correspond to tribal names..

1) first king carries name that means king of Boii....could it be that Cimbri and Boii are the same, as chief of Cimbri carries the name king of Boii?

2) second king is king of spears.... while I explained that word Serb and some other tribal names may be related to word "spear"...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362463&postcount=48

3) third known king of Cimbri is Lugus...which resembles Lugii who are a tribe in east Germany and Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugii), and later Lusatians or Wends or Sorbs (still called "Luzicki Srbi" in Serbia as opposed to "Srbi" which is name for Serbs)


now, note that Cimbri are often associated with Helvetti, same as Serbs are associated with "Hrvati" (name for Croats in Serbian and Croatian)

makes one think, doesn't it?
Scordisci, Serdi, Boii, Cimbri, Helvetti disappeared from history...or did they?

could it be that people who origin from them are in this audience:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Whnrq5u-2kU

Itas Argis
13-01-11, 01:00
how yes no

Just when I started searching for the origin of Serbs (Srba), something similar to the so called "Iranian theory" by Croats, you posted several very interesting posts, actually, what I was looking for.

When I'll have more than 10 posts (for links), will post (If I can here) about "Iranian theory" of Croats, that is about their name origin, symbols, etc. I think this could be good to compare along Serbian one.
___



if we go back to the motive of white cross on red background..it is motive shared between Denmark, Swiss and Serbia...

As far, as I know, Serbian coat of arms and the flag is not that old, but actually more a copy than a original idea. If I'm wrong correct me since I'm quiet new to Serbian history.

___

It would be (relatively) much more interesting when genetic research(s) wouldn't show that much difference of Haplogroup I2 (Y-DNA) among the Serbs. It varies too much.

If the Croats and Serbs came here to drive the Avars, Slavs, or others, it may be that they did not take them as slaves or totally conquered, but rather some did "married" along, so one % got here, or better to say, some Slavs became "Serbs" or "Croats". Possibility.

WhileothergenesandSlaviclanguagetook overwhen theywerenearthe Black Sea. Ifadisastermay haveoccurred, natural or social, withoutmuchtrouble fell under Slavic rule or not. Were forced take a new language or they had to learn the language to be able to communicate with them. If they might have been forced to take their (Slavic) culture someescapedandformedthe"White Croatia" and"White Serbia". There aremany reasonswhythey havewithin themselvesthe Slavicgenes. Itwillprobablyremainunknown, and it isn't so interesting.
___

I think in some scientific research, Helvetti are taken as a version of the term for Croats or in Croatian language, Hrvati.

It's fun to learn.

Itas Argis
13-01-11, 01:03
Sorry, but it seems to me that some error occurred

how yes no 2
13-01-11, 01:18
could proto-Serbs really originally dwelled somewhere as west as Bohemia as indicated by Byzantine emperor historian?
originally dwelled that means long long time ago in the past...

Bohemia is hotspot of I2a2... and I2a2 seems to match other proto-Serb related tribes (Serboi and Siraces in Caspian and Black sea areas... Pasthun Sarbans and Serians of northwest China match spread of haplogroup I in Asia)

if proto-Serbs dwelled in Bohemia for many centuries in past, perhaps tribal name(s) similar to Serians, Serbs..is recorded by historians in that area....

let's see what Strabo has to say about Celts, Germans, proto-Serbs and Bohemia..


Here, too, is the Hercynian Forest,15 and also the tribes of the Suevi, some of which dwell inside the forest, as, for instance, the tribes of the Coldui,16 in whose territory is Boihaemum,17 the domain of Marabodus, the place whither he caused to migrate, not only several other peoples, but in particular the Marcomanni, his fellow-tribesmen; for after his return from Rome this man, who before had been only a private citizen, was placed in charge of the affairs of state, for, as a youth he had been at Rome and had enjoyed the favor of Augustus, and on his return he took the rulership and acquired, in addition to the peoples aforementioned, the Lugii (a large tribe), the Zumi, the Butones, the Mugilones, the Sibini,18 and also the Semnones, a large tribe of the Suevi themselves. However, while some of the tribes of the Suevi dwell inside the forest, as I was saying, others dwell outside of it, and have a common boundary with the Getae.19 Now as for the tribe of the Suevi,20 it is the largest, for it extends from the Rhenus to the Albis;
quoted from
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0198:book=7:chapter= 1&highlight=sibini

So, in Strabo's time Marcomanni (or people led by Marabodus) rule over Bohemia and over several tribes among them large tribe Luigii and also Sibini

Sibini could be indeed a tribe of proto-Serbs that might have later departed for Balkan, as in Serbian language a word for a Serb is "Srbin" ... while Luigi is likely about Lugii who may later gave people known as Lusatians/Sorbs/Wends

however, Serians mentioned by Seneca are much more east...as they rule over Dacians and cross frozen Danube...as I explained Scordisci are one candidate....but could that in fact be Carpi, who are classified as Dacians only because in one reference the word Carpo-Dacians is used...


Zosimus, a Byzantine chronicler writing around AD 500, records an invasion of Rome's Danubian provinces in 381 by a barbarian coalition of Huns, Scirii and Karpodakai ("Carpo-Dacians").[36] The latter term has been taken by many scholars as "proof" of the Carpi's Dacian ethnicity.[33] But this is the only literary evidence linking the Carpi name to that of the Dacians, and Zosimus is regarded by some modern scholars as an unreliable chronicler.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpi_(people)

Carpo-Dacians could just mean Dacians with Carpi rulling elite...

Carpi may explain spread of I2a2 in Romania
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/100/entity_15234.html
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/200/entity_15234.html
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/300/entity_15234.html
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/400/entity_15234.html

how yes no 2
13-01-11, 01:34
how yes no

When I'll have more than 10 posts (for links), will post (If I can here) about "Iranian theory" of Croats, that is about their name origin, symbols, etc. I think this could be good to compare along Serbian one.
___

Serbs and Croats seems to go in pair for long time as related but different people...

I think they together (perhaps with other tribes) might be known under names such as Veneti and might be original carriers of I2a2... I also think that early Slavs were in fact I2a2 Veneti... on other hand there is also mention of Serians that match spread of haplogroup I in Euroasia and seems to relate to proto-Serbs...

as for Sarmatians they are probably mix of tribes of different origin and among them also some of the tribes related to proto-Serbs and proto-Croats... note that there are also Sarmatian Venedi, and that Antes (likely derivation from tribal name Eneti, from which Veneti is also derived) are first mentioned as Sarmatian and later as being of Veneti race...



As far, as I know, Serbian coat of arms and the flag is not that old, but actually more a copy than a original idea. If I'm wrong correct me since I'm quiet new to Serbian history.
flags of most Slavic countries are rather recent... original Slavic colours are red and white...
blue got in when Peter the Great was incognito in Netherlands and was impressed by their flag... so he changed later the flag of Russia, and later other Slavic nations (except Poland) took over choice of colors for flag...

I wonder what was originally the meaning of red and white... it is known that the red and white had meaning of south and west respectively, but that doesnot explain choice of colours for flags and coats of arms... .....Veneti seems to be related to wind....so maybe red and white as fire and wind, energy and air...

as for coat of arms of Serbia (notice it is also red and white) it's hard to say, but my guesses are here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362715&postcount=101
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362844&postcount=108
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362846&postcount=109

btw. Croatian red-white checkerboard coat of arms is interesting as it is very specific and can be served to identify Croats throughout a history...
e.g. areas in Slovakia, Czech republic, Poland that were part of white Croatia seems to still have checkerboard as motive in coat of arms... you can see it repeated in many coat of arms of regions and towns there...



I think in some scientific research, Helvetti are taken as a version of the term for Croats or in Croatian language, Hrvati.
that is interesting idea... do you know where can one read more about that research?

Dalmat
13-01-11, 02:12
for a Greek and descendant of Byzantine empire i am surprised you dont know origin of Serbian shield

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRoyw000yw55rdxsgIowXAGpwUMt9xRr QBRrOYPNqk5L8at1nPu



for the Iranian origin of Croats,is alternative history department among Croatians at best.

Most logical is that name is from word "Hrbati" which means Mountain people or highlanders,as opposed to "Poljak" (Polje,plain,lowlands) for Polish people which means,Lowlander.

for instance there is also some archeological findings of Croats in Ukraine,on this page

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=hr&sl=hr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.croatia.org%2Fcrown%2Farticles% 2F9864%2F1%2FWhite-Croats-in-Ukraine-and-their-seat-Stiljsko-near-the-city-of-Lviv.html

Site is near Lviv,in Galitia county of Ukraine
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Lviv-Ukraine-Map.png/250px-Lviv-Ukraine-Map.png

Its Shield looks like this
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/Lviv-modern-coat-of-arms2.png/94px-Lviv-modern-coat-of-arms2.png

compared to Dalmatian and of Zagreb

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRVu5_sZfY2dg2fSkvc23B6w8ZRRaMIx J63gubRkSnEpzsiyH7Y Zagreb

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTli4AfgamQDML6Ft84J2nF1iwzrhbz5 mqW8QRa5JqoTyOadgdzkA Dalmatia

Garrick
13-01-11, 02:39
then we agree that thracian were celts, since proto serbs were celts(although cultura druga), so we have a common sprink of I2a2 in dalmatia, and a possible music influence in womans polyphonic voice, example
here is some east celt music

iapetoc
There are opinions in Serbia that Serbs are Celts.

More after DNA researchs reports that Serbs are not Slavs.

But problem with Celts is haplogroup, because Celtic haplogroup is R1b.

Of course it is possible that the tribes were referred to as the Celtic although they have not been.

Researchers often mixed Celtic and Germanic tribes, so it's no surprise that the mix and the Serbian tribes.

But your effort is very valuable, the Celtic path may be the right path on which side of research should focus, and that I agree with you.

It is now clear that there are many wandering since among the Old Greeks and Romans who wrote about the different tribes were many doubts and erroneous classification of different tribes.

However haplogroups us unmistakably lead right track, so no doubt, it will be established close connection and common origins between of Old Serbs, Germans, Scandinavians, and all I the people, and it will be disclosed the original I language (languages).

how yes no 2
13-01-11, 02:40
for a Greek and descendant of Byzantine empire i am surprised you dont know origin of Serbian shield
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRoyw000yw55rdxsgIowXAGpwUMt9xRr QBRrOYPNqk5L8at1nPu

Byzantine flag origins from Paleologos/ Palaiologan dinasty...first emperor from that dinasty starts rulling only at 1259 and origins from Macedonia...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaiologan_dynasty
so the motive might have easily traveled other way around as the same motive exist among Serbian nobles of Macedonia - Mrnjavcevici
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Herb_mrnjavcevici.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Serbian_rulers

for the Iranian origin of Croats,is alternative history department among Croatians at best.
Most logical is that name is from word "Hrbati" which means Mountain people or highlanders,as opposed to "Poljak" (Polje,plain,lowlands) for Polish people which means,Lowlander.
for instance there is also some archeological findings of Croats in Ukraine,on this page
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=hr&sl=hr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.croatia.org%2Fcrown%2Farticles% 2F9864%2F1%2FWhite-Croats-in-Ukraine-and-their-seat-Stiljsko-near-the-city-of-Lviv.html
Mountain people or highlanders make sense for origin of word Croats...

how yes no 2
13-01-11, 02:50
f
for instance there is also some archeological findings of Croats in Ukraine,on this page

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=hr&sl=hr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.croatia.org%2Fcrown%2Farticles% 2F9864%2F1%2FWhite-Croats-in-Ukraine-and-their-seat-Stiljsko-near-the-city-of-Lviv.html

Site is near Lviv,in Galitia county of Ukraine
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Lviv-Ukraine-Map.png/250px-Lviv-Ukraine-Map.png

Its Shield looks like this
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/Lviv-modern-coat-of-arms2.png/94px-Lviv-modern-coat-of-arms2.png

compared to Dalmatian and of Zagreb

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRVu5_sZfY2dg2fSkvc23B6w8ZRRaMIx J63gubRkSnEpzsiyH7Y Zagreb

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTli4AfgamQDML6Ft84J2nF1iwzrhbz5 mqW8QRa5JqoTyOadgdzkA Dalmatia


this is very interesting...
besides red and white, blue and yellow is other combination present in Slavic countries (not only in Ukraine)...

interestingly, this is imediatelly west of areas that have white cross on red background as coat of arms which is as Serbian coat of arms... which reinforces theory of Serb and Croat tribes traveling in pair...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Volyn_coat_of_arms.svg/100px-Volyn_coat_of_arms.svg.pnghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Map_of_Ukraine_political_simple_Oblast_Wolhynien.p ng/250px-Map_of_Ukraine_political_simple_Oblast_Wolhynien.p ng
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volyn_Oblast

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Coat_of_Arms_of_Rivne_Oblast.png/100px-Coat_of_Arms_of_Rivne_Oblast.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Map_of_Ukraine_political_simple_Oblast_Rivne.png/250px-Map_of_Ukraine_political_simple_Oblast_Rivne.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivne_Oblast

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362844&postcount=108

Dalmat
13-01-11, 02:50
Mountain people or highlanders make sense for origin of word Croats...

it does ,because in Slavonic language trough history "v" and "b" were often interchangeable.

You should know that well, as your country was called Servia about 100 years ago.

Dalmat
13-01-11, 02:55
Byzantine flag origins from Paleologos/ Palaiologan dinasty...first emperor from that dinasty starts rulling only at 1259 and origins from Macedonia...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaiologan_dynasty
so the motive might have easily traveled other way around as the same motive exist among Serbian nobles of Macedonia - Mrnjavcevici
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Herb_mrnjavcevici.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Serbian_rulers


so you are saying Byzantium took their coat of arms from Serbs?

Also there are cross with 4 "c" on ancient Greek artifacts and pictures,so i bet Byzantium as Greek empire,maybe took it from their own history

how yes no 2
13-01-11, 02:56
iapetoc
There are opinions in Serbia that Serbs are Celts.

More after DNA researchs reports that Serbs are not Slavs.

But problem with Celts is haplogroup, because Celtic haplogroup is R1b.

Of course it is possible that the tribes were referred to as the Celtic although they have not been.

Researchers often mixed Celtic and Germanic tribes, so it's no surprise that the mix and the Serbian tribes.

But your effort is very valuable, the Celtic path may be the right path on which side of research should focus, and that I agree with you.

It is now clear that there are many wandering since among the Old Greeks and Romans who wrote about the different tribes were many doubts and erroneous classification of different tribes.

However haplogroups us unmistakably lead right track, so no doubt, it will be established close connection and common origins between of Old Serbs, Germans, Scandinavians, and all I the people, and it will be disclosed the original I language (languages).

I2a2 could have been Celtic as well... because in fact all haplogroup I might have been genuine original Celts...

read this
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=363364&postcount=52

how yes no 2
13-01-11, 03:00
Also there are cross with 4 "c" on ancient Greek artifacts and pictures,so i bet Byzantium as Greek empire,maybe took it from their own history
are you sure there are 4 "C" on ancient Greek artifacts? I have never ever heard of something like that....so, I dare you to prove this claim...find credible single example

Dalmat
13-01-11, 03:08
are you sure there are 4 "C" on ancient Greek artifacts? I have never ever heard of something like that....so, I dare you to prove this claim...find credible single example


read Deretic,he explains "well" how Achilles and Alexander the Great were Serbs because they wore cross with 4 "c"

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/5696/n136285444730097769409.jpg

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/object3/1773/119/n65296064112_1957.jpg


:laughing:

Garrick
13-01-11, 03:21
read Deretic,he explains "well" how Achilles and Alexander the Great were Serbs because they wore cross with 4 "c"


:laughing:

Dalmat, it is obvious poignancy in your posts.

Is not in any address of a Croatian Serb, or vice versa, there must be acrimony and bickering?

Here we are in a very difficult issues and try to reconstruct the flows on the basis of new information, rather than futile skirmishing, there are other forums for bickering, this is a serious European Forum.

how yes no 2
13-01-11, 03:25
read Deretic,he explains "well" how Achilles and Alexander the Great were Serbs because they wore cross with 4 "c"

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/5696/n136285444730097769409.jpg

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/object3/1773/119/n65296064112_1957.jpg


:laughing:

I thought you are smart enough to realize that Byzantine coat of arms never had 4 'C', but 4 'B' which had a meaning

King of Kings, Ruling Over Rulers (Βασιλεὺς Βασιλέων Βασιλεύων Βασιλευόντων/Βασιλεῦσι, Basileus Basileon Basileuon Basileuonton/Basileusi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaiologos

so, if your proof is correct, than version identical to Serbian coat of arms (the one with 4 'C') is original, while Byzantine version with 4 'B' is a copy..

though, I also thought you are smart enough not to believe Deretic's alternative version of history... he did probably draw 4 'C' himself




it does ,because in Slavonic language trough history "v" and "b" were often interchangeable.
You should know that well, as your country was called Servia about 100 years ago.
sure...
Srb -> Srv ->Hrv

btw. maybe word Croat origins from word fruit
here is possible story about Veneti preserved as a myth:



In Greek mythology, the Anemoi (in Greek, Ἄνεμοι — "winds") were wind gods who were each ascribed a cardinal direction, from which their respective winds came, and were each associated with various seasons and weather conditions.
...
Of the four chief Anemoi, Boreas was the north wind and bringer of cold winter air, Notus was the south wind and bringer of the storms of late summer and autumn, and Zephyrus was the west wind and bringer of light spring and early summer breezes; Eurus, the east wind, was not associated with any of the three Greek seasons.
...
The deities equivalent to the Anemoi in Roman mythology were the Venti (in Latin, "winds").
....
Zephyrus, or just Zephyr (Greek: Ζέφυρος, Zéphuros, "the west wind"), in Latin Favonius, is the Greek god of the west wind. The gentlest of the winds, Zephyrus is known as the fructifying wind, the messenger of spring. It was thought that Zephyrus lived in a cave in Thrace.
Zephyrus was reported as having several wives in different stories. He was said to be the husband of his sister Iris, the goddess of the rainbow. He abducted another of his sisters, the goddess Chloris, and gave her the domain of flowers. With Chloris, he fathered Carpus ("fruit").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemoi

In Greek mythology, Karpos (Latin: Carpus, literally "fruit"), was a youth renowned for his beauty. He is the son of Zephyros (the west wind) and Khloris (spring, or new vegetation), forming a natural metaphor — the west wind heralds the new growth of spring, which then bears fruit. Carpo (or Xarpo), one of the Horae, is in some ways the feminine equivalent of Karpos; her dominion was autumn, ripening, and harvesting.
...
The word Karpos derives from the Proto-Indo-European language root "kerp-" or "karp-" meaning "to gather", "to pluck" or "to harvest". Cognates can be found in many Indo-European languages including modern English in words such as "harvest" (via Germanic), "carpet", "excerpt" and "scarce" (via Latin). Coming to English directly from the Greek "karpos" are the following:
the prefix "carpo-" — meaning fruit. e.g. carpophagous, "fruit-eating"
the suffixes "-carp" and "-carpous" — also meaning fruit. e.g. ascocarp, pericarp
Carpel — the female reproductive organ of a flower
Carpology - the study of fruits and seeds
Carp — a fruiting body of a fungus
The proper name Carpophorus (lit. "fruit-bearing")
A well-known expression in Latin is "carpe diem" (= "pluck the day", enjoy life as it is now)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpos

Garrick
13-01-11, 03:36
I2a2 could have been Celtic as well... because in fact all haplogroup I might have been genuine original Celts...

read this
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=363364&postcount=52

I read it.

I thought that when I wrote, just the Old Romans and Greeks were confused about different tribes.

So that today some tribes that are considered as Celtic maybe after DNA researching they were I carriers not R1a.

But ok, we can use the name of Celtic, especially that does not turn out too much from the general opinion.

Now that is approaching the convergence of different options, because it directs us to the unmistakable traces of DNA, there is no need for insisting that every question in detail cleared, it is essential that the general path is the right one.

Ivan
13-01-11, 03:44
Areas with increased frequencies of haplogroup I can easily be matched to locations of Serboi/Serbi in Caspian area and to Kuban region in Black sea area to which Siraces migrated from the Caspian area.....

I hotspot does not match Serbi or Serboi. It is actually 500km lower.
It is an old map and thus distorted. Serboi on your map live on mouth of river Volga,
500km up. Halfway is a characteristical ridge on Caspian sea
http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png

Kuban river does match I. I believe it is due to Russians (later known as Cossacks) that came in great numbers from 1500-1900 to Kuban and who are mostly I2a2

how yes no 2
13-01-11, 03:49
I hotspot does not match Serbi or Serboi. It is actually 500km lower.
It is an old map and thus distorted. Serboi on your map live on mouth of river Volga,
500km up. Halfway is a characteristical ridge on Caspian sea
http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png

Kuban river does match I. I believe it is due to Russians (later known as Cossacks) that came in great numbers from 1500-1900 to Kuban and who are mostly I2a2
you are looking at wrong place... I do not know what tribe is south most hotspot in Caucasus area, but if you look at position of Serboi, you will sea that spread towards west starts from there...which matches expected pattern with Siraces (same as Serboi) moving from that place to Kuban region...

Ivan
13-01-11, 03:54
Sarmatian theories of Serbs and Croat concerning large numbers of people that allegedly undertook that trip, is unlikely.

But concerning names of Serbs and Croats, and how they ended up here, Sarmatian theory does make sense.

how yes no 2
13-01-11, 04:02
Sarmatian theories of Serbs and Croat concerning large numbers of people that allegedly undertook that trip, is unlikely.

But concerning names of Serbs and Croats, and how they ended up here, Sarmatian theory does make sense.

if it was not large group of people it would not be visible in the map above...
but point is that Sarmatians were group of people of different origin....some of Serians namely Serboi/Siraces (likely proto-Serbs) lived among Sarmatians...but some lived elsewhere in Europe, Saudi Arabia, northwest China, Afganistan... So, Sarmatian theory of origin is a bit way to simplified...

point is however that haplogroup I is for long time in Europe, and what likely happened is that some part of it (namely Serians that are mentioned by Seneca) has spread from Europe to Asia and Caucasus, probably in porder to establish/utilize trade routes....

this reminds me a bit on ideas I have about Vikings... also Sherden sea people reminded me on Vikings...so I am curious whether the haplogroup I in west Asia is I2a2, I1 or I*
I1 would be Viking and I* would mean that spread of I started from there...

Ivan
13-01-11, 04:06
No,

If I hotspot (a small concentrated circle in Caucasus mountains) is what you link to Serboi , look at the small ridge on Caspian sea. Your hotspot is 250km downward. Serboi on old map are on mouth of Volga river it is upwards 500 km from that hot spot. Ridge is halway.

You just need to look for river mouths and some landmarks when comparing to an old map.
http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/aug2008/map-caucasus.gif


your hotspot is around 100km down from Makachkala.

Serboi should be aroun Kalmyk

Ivan
13-01-11, 04:14
Surely there were I in Sarmatians.

Just comapare your map of G to where Alani are on your old map. Look for the ridge for rough orientation. It matches more than I.
Even though Alani were pretty much destroyed by Mongols, and they retreated back to Caucasus mountains it still is a somewhat better match

About the names

3rd-century inscriptions from the Greek colony of Tanais (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanais) at the mouth of the Don River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_River,_Russia) mention a nearby Alan tribe called the Choroatos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croats) or Chorouatos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croats)[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]. The historian Ptolemy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy) identifies the Serboi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs) as a tribe who lived north of the Caucasus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus), and other sources identify the Serboi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs) as an Alan tribe in the Volga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga)-Don steppe in the 3rd century[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)].

how yes no 2
13-01-11, 04:15
No,
If I hotspot (a small concentrated circle in Caucasus mountains) is what you link to Serboi , look at the small ridge on Caspian sea. Your hotspot is 250km downward. Serboi on old map are on mouth of Volga river it is upwards 500 km from that hot spot. Ridge is halway.
You just need to look for river mouths and some landmarks when comparing to an old map.
http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/aug2008/map-caucasus.gif
your hotspot is around 100km down from Makachkala.

as I told you, you look at wrong place....

Serboi trace is lot above Makachkala.... it is very top of your image
around Kalmyk region...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg/800px-Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg

and on haplogroup I map it is place on Caspian sea shores from which spread goes towards west and north west with west end finishing in Kuban region...well, try to look on place of Serboi and imagine what would happen with spread if they were migrating towards west and nortwest and than look map again...

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png

how yes no 2
13-01-11, 04:39
though, I also thought you are smart enough not to believe Deretic's alternative version of history... he did probably draw 4 'C' himself

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/5696/n136285444730097769409.jpg
http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/object3/1773/119/n65296064112_1957.jpg

But actually, Deretic might be right about Achilleus


In Greek mythology, Achilles (Ancient Greek: Ἀχιλλεύς, Achilleus) was a Greek hero of the Trojan War, the central character and the greatest warrior of Homer's Iliad.
Achilles also has the attributes of being the most handsome of the heroes assembled against Troy.[1]
...
Achilles was the son of the nymph Thetis and Peleus, the king of the Myrmidons. Zeus and Poseidon had been rivals for the hand of Thetis until Prometheus, the fire-bringer, warned Zeus of a prophecy that Thetis would bear a son greater than his father. For this reason, the two gods withdrew their pursuit, and had her wed Peleus.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles



The Myrmidons (or Myrmidones; Greek: Μυρμιδόνες) are people of ancient Greek mythology. They are very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and are commanded by Achilles.[1] Their eponymous ancestor was Myrmidon, a king of Thessalian Phthia who was a son of Zeus and "wide-ruling" Eurymedousa, a princess of Phthia. She was seduced by Zeus in the form of an ant. An etiological myth of their origins, simply expanding upon their supposed etymology — the name in Classical Greek was interpreted as "ant-people", from μυρμηδών (murmedon) "ant's nest"[2] and that from μύρμηξ (murmex) "ant"[3] — was first mentioned by Ovid, in Metamorphoses: in Ovid's telling, King Aeacus of Aegina, father of Peleus, pleaded with Zeus to populate his country after a terrible plague. Zeus said his people would number as the ants on his sacred oak, and from the ants sprang the people of Aegina, the Myrmidons.
According to Homer's Iliad, the Myrmidons were the fiercest warriors in all of Greece. As said in Iliad, "Go home, then, with your ships and comrades to lord it over the Myrmidons".
[edit]Later use of the term

The Myrmidons of Greek myth were known for their loyalty to their leaders, so that in pre-industrial Europe the word "myrmidon" carried many of the same connotations that "robot" does today. Myrmidon later came to mean "hired ruffian" (according to the Oxford English Dictionary) or "a loyal follower, especially one who executes orders without question, protest, or pity - unquestioning followers." (Dictionary.com).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrmidons

hm, brave and skilled warriors....loyal to extreme...unquestioning followers... sounds as proto-Serbs

ant-people
associations: Eneti, Antes, Veneti...
Thracians that are numerous as ants...

Dalmat, thanks for sharing this valuable clue

Ivan
13-01-11, 04:52
I thought that you imply that the wave with part pointing to Serboi can be interpreted as some sign of spreading to west, which I think is wrong. I think only rounded areas are places of migrational starts and stop. All isohypss are just spreading from high to lower concenration areas in time.

That is why I chose to believe you meant round hotspot from Makachkala.

So,
This wave can only mean from west to east. .

iapetoc
13-01-11, 05:18
Hahahahaha the 4 c is total serbian
the 4 c of the greeks has a different meaning
its a holy bound and oath, its not 4 c but something like 3ε it has to do with gods,
it is found in delphi in delos island in apollonia black sea
and mainly were an oracle exists, i cant speak about that more,
if you are a polytheistic you 'll understand.

the propability that cames from ancient 12 radius sun may have a aproach
cause 4c = 8 radius +4 the cross = 12 radius,
13 and 16 radius were symbols of ancient makedonians
12 was the star and 16 the sun

and cause i cant hold my self the double ε 3ε you will also find it in astrology, find where and then compare it with a christian symbol

iapetoc
13-01-11, 05:40
i stiil dont get it

in caukas
serbi - krevatas - albania,

white serbia
white croatia

serbia today
croatia today
albania today

MISSES THE WHITE ALBANIA
Hahahahahahaha

and what about bosna, have you search or found any in caucaus?

so to a celt needs a R1b, the myceneans what were they?
and how we found it???

Ivan
13-01-11, 06:36
iapetoc you forgot Madjars, Balkars

Today Madjars are also called Hungarians

Madjars of Caucasus have nothing to do geneticaly with Madjars in Hugaria but there is the name.

Balkars of Caucasus are supose to be Bulgars.

It does seem funny, but there are 5 similar names

iapetoc
13-01-11, 14:39
Hahahaha
indeed,
probably the inner and outer names esonyms and eksonyms
propably the names hrvat srbi mayar alba and bulkar were given by outer,
or given by R carrier

BTW can a linguist tell me how is male catlle in slavian
and which is IE the bull as we found it in Britain
or the taurus - toro as in greek and spain???

Garrick
13-01-11, 16:42
Hahahaha
indeed,
probably the inner and outer names esonyms and eksonyms
propably the names hrvat srbi mayar alba and bulkar were given by outer,
or given by R carrier

BTW can a linguist tell me how is male catlle in slavian
and which is IE the bull as we found it in Britain
or the taurus - toro as in greek and spain???

iapetoc
People are trying to discover their origins, which is lost in the darkness of the past and every attempt is worth the effort.

Without trial and error no paving the way knowledge.

Thanks haplogroups we are much closer to the cognition to reconstruct roads in the past and to re-read the old texts, otherwise pay attention to issues of language, culture, customs and so on.

Your idea that the Serbs are Thracians or Thracians are Serbs, and Thracians to be connected with the Celts (according to current knowledge) have a base, it also has ancient Greek sources about the Thracians, and writing of Herodotus is especially important, also in Byzantine sources indicate beyond doubt that the Tribals are Serbs, and Tribals were Thracian tribe.

In this regard, we are very close to at least some tribes that were Serbian and these are Scordisci, Tribals, possible Moesians (since both of them are mentioned in Byzantine sources as Serbian), and later we can go from tribe to tribe and discuss the likelihood that if the tribe Thracian/Celtic/Serbian, or African/Illyrian/Albanian, or other.

I do not know how much you know, but today the official Albanian History tends to show the entire ancient Greece as the Illyrian/Old Albanian, on the other side the Illyrian/Old Albanian factor according to this sources was spread all the way to the borders of present-day Slovenia and Austria, even within the territory of Hungary (for examples according todays albanian sources Pannonians were Illyrian/Old Albanian tribe).

But we may look at all rational, and haplogroups give us unmistakable mark on the movement of people and tribes, so that it will contribute assembling the puzzle and mosaic of past and getting of new dimensions and valuable knowledge.

iapetoc
13-01-11, 18:19
I have found a better solution
i will tell you later,

about albanian
much money are paid,
from islam turkey and usa
they buy cheap stupid scientic like kolla to say bullshit,
but a percentance of south albanians consider thei rshelfs greeks
that is why in Greek revolution 35% of army were south albanians against North who served the turks
the state of albania is in middle cant blame greece and cant blame koosovars,
albanians slain arberians Suliotet just for being with Greeks, find who is behind them,
the ones that saved them at 1912.
also why the connection with both Dacia and turkey,

iapetoc
13-01-11, 18:22
besides i will give you an information after that will shock you
Ancient greek thoukidides

how yes no 2
13-01-11, 22:24
I thought that you imply that the wave with part pointing to Serboi can be interpreted as some sign of spreading to west, which I think is wrong. I think only rounded areas are places of migrational starts and stop. All isohypss are just spreading from high to lower concenration areas in time.

That is why I chose to believe you meant round hotspot from Makachkala.

So,
This wave can only mean from west to east. .

island like hotspot stays if tribe didnot move for very long time back in history, or if part of it it goes far away in short period ....

normally, tribe is expanding/moving slowly...and than you get spread as the one between Serboi and Kuban area.... it is irrelevant in which direction was spread originally, as there are tens thousands of years of people with that haplogroup moving around before someone recorded position of Serboi and someone else later recorded position of Siraces....... point is that there is a clear spread that relates Serboi area with area where later Siraces (thought to be same as Serboi) are recorded in history... and that it is haplogroup I that relates those places...

how yes no 2
13-01-11, 22:30
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/5696/n136285444730097769409.jpg
http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/object3/1773/119/n65296064112_1957.jpg

But actually, Deretic might be right about Achilleus


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrmidons

hm, brave and skilled warriors....loyal to extreme...unquestioning followers... sounds as proto-Serbs

ant-people
associations: Eneti, Antes, Veneti...
Thracians that are numerous as ants...

Dalmat, thanks for sharing this valuable clue
could Sherden sea peoples have been part of populous race of Veneti?

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/seapeoples18.jpg
http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/seapeoples17.jpg
http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/seapeoples14.jpg

they do have antennas :)

but ant-people can hardly be proto-Serbs, as from what I read somewhere (long time ago and do not think it was very credible source), in animal world proto-Serbs would have wolves as totem...
which btw. might relate them to Dacians and Lycians...

in Greek lýkos = "wolf"


Lycia was frequently mentioned by Homer as an ally of Troy. In Homer's Iliad, the Lycian contingent was said to have been led by two esteemed warriors: Sarpedon (son of Zeus and Laodamia) and Glaucus (son of Hippolochus). Elsewhere in Greek mythology, the Lycian kingdom was said to have been ruled by another Sarpedon, a Cretan exile and brother of the king Minos;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycia

rulers of Lykia seems to be called Sarpedon (don = ruler, Sarpedon = ruler of Serbs? as Cimbri king Boiirix is ruler of Boii? Cimbri also had king Lugas)....



The Dacians (Lat. Daci, Gr. Δάκαι Dákai) were an Indo-European people, the ancient inhabitants of Dacia (located in the area in and around the Carpathian mountains and east of there to the Black Sea), present-day Romania and Moldova, parts of Sarmatia (mostly in eastern Ukraine) and Scythia Minor in southeastern Europe (Romania, Serbia and Bulgaria). They spoke the Dacian language, believed related to Thracian, but were influenced culturally by the neighbouring Scythians and by the Celtic invaders of the 4th century BC.[1]
The Dacians (tribe) were known as Geton (plural Getae) in Greek writings, and as Dacus (plural Daci) and also Getae in Roman documents; also as Dagae and Gaete—see the late Roman map Tabula Peutingeriana. Strabo states that the original name of the Dacians was "daoi", which could be explained with a possible Phrygian cognate "daos", meaning "wolf". This assumption may be supported by the fact that one of the Dacian standards, the Dacian Draco, had a wolf's head. Phrygii was another name used within the region, and in later times, some Roman auxiliaries recruited from the area were referred to as Phrygi. Their capital was not Argedava near the Danube, but Sarmizegetusa, in the Sureanu mountains, in the Romanian Western Carpathians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians

interesting idea that Dacians are related to wolf as well...
I didnot know Dacians = Getae, bnut it did sound similar to Deutch and Dutch to me... Dacians might have originally been Germanic...which doesnot exclude them as I2a2...

but they had Celtic invaders rulling over them.... and Seneca speaks of Serians rulling over Scythians (in some translations it is said Dacians)... so, this rullers of theirs could have been either Serdi/Scordisci... or Carpi

how yes no 2
13-01-11, 22:58
iapetoc you forgot Madjars, Balkars

Today Madjars are also called Hungarians

Madjars of Caucasus have nothing to do geneticaly with Madjars in Hugaria but there is the name.

Balkars of Caucasus are supose to be Bulgars.

It does seem funny, but there are 5 similar names

of course those are not coincidences...

there is Iberia in Caucasus and Iberian peninsula in south Europe...
now among tribes who lived in Iberian peninsula are again: Seurbi, Helleni, Albones...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Iberia_300BC.svg

of course, those tribal names are not coincidence....

just remember what happened when new colonies e.g. America were discovered...

there was New Amsterdam there, and than it was renamed to New York...
there is New Caledonia...there were Spanish, English, French, Portugese, Dutch lands there...

parts of tribes tend to colonize new places and give them old names.... and those parts of tribes carry same names as their core

well, look at Alani...
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/500/entity_6193.html

Ivan
13-01-11, 23:52
First,
Happy New Year to Orthodox Christians who practice their religion by Julian calendar .


it is irrelevant in which direction was spread originally

On contrary, I find that information about directions of spreading very important.


and on haplogroup I map it is place on Caspian sea shores from which spread goes towards west and north west with west end finishing in Kuban region...well, try to look on place of Serboi and imagine what would happen with spread if they were migrating towards west and nortwest and than look map again...By logic of shapes, and isohypses gradation, it looks like west to east direction. It just flows nicely and in 2-3 visible steps towards mouth of Volga. This shape also gradually shapes through centuries. This is not coincidental. At least not by this visual data from map. The question is in shape logic not a haplogroup type.
http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png



Concerning haplotype I:

Don't forget that almost all Alans - Sarmatians residing in that area were eradicated by Tamerlan, eccept those that retreated to mountains.
What we see are nowadays data about people living on that place. The question is how much of Alanian I is in them, since this part of the Russian plane was a home of so many nations, very much different. Also it could be Russian population gradually moving in vast uninhabited land after Tamerlan slaughtering population of planes.

Mostly Ossetes are claiming Alanian descent today. Their country is officially known as North Ossetia-Alania. For your theory to work, where big numbers of I2a2 came from Alans, there should be at least equal G among them in places where they supposedly came to. In case of Serbia and Croatia there are about 0,9-2% of G. There should be proportionaly lower percent of I2a2 coming from Alans.



G spread is more logical to mouth of Volga, also since that of I looks it came from west ( could be Russian ). Also waves of G in Serboi area (Alan tribe), carry more potent frequency range of G (Frequency range: 0% to 31.7%) than I (Frequency range: 0% to 22.6%). They should be in proportion of 26 G to 18 I, in waves projecting on that area nowadays.
Only if we accept those I to be there after Tamerlan destruction of Alania. In fact G waves also look like repopulation of Alan areas from G carriers, after Tamerlan. Only this G moves in logical settlement areas for G.

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225045821/home/G.png

Also migration of large numbers of people (exodus like?) to territories of nowadays Poland and Germany (White Croatia and White Srebia) can not be attributed to warlike, warrior elite on horseback like Alans. Large numbers of people does not go along with warriors, since they are mostly going on foot and with children, women, their possessions and cattle, and no warrior would like to be slowed by them. To propose great numbers that could be relevant comparing to indigenous population of I2a2 from Balkans, came from Alan is not possible (by my opinion). It looks more like warriors on horseback came to indigenous R1a of Poland and Germany and settled among them. Maybe some I2a2 were alrady there among the R1a.

It is estimated that there were no more than 35000 Alan warriors in Europe. Even big numbers of Mongols and Huns have left no relevant genetic traces. Very small part of Europe population have this genetic imprint (except Hungary).

Today there is no certain genetic trace that could be attributed solely to Alans. It is speculated though, that G2a is most probable carrier. In fact, I am connected genetically of course, along with some other people to, so far, only relevant bones of alleged Sarmatian origin warriors (two of them) buried in Merrovingian Germany of 7th century together with four warriors of R1b. These alleged Sarmation origin warriors are buried according to Sarmatian customs with horse skull and horse feet. I am actually more closely related to these two people, than I am related to some of nowadays living g2a carriers from Europe, even after 1300 years.


Madyars of Caucasus have over 90% of G1.
They differ so much from Madyars of Balkans, but name couldn't be coincidence.

There is Jasi minority from Hungaria, who came from Alania prior to or after Tamerlan. Jasi or Osi is Georgian name for Ossetes. They still have Caucasian heritage.

how yes no 2
14-01-11, 21:17
Happy New Year to everyone for whom today is 1st January!!

Ivan,

As you mention some theory of mine, and find some holes in it, let's first see what is my theory... if there is such a thing, as I was often changing opinion and posting possibilities much more than some stable theory

but if I would have to take a firm attitude and define some theory, it would at the moment be stg. like this:

I do not think that Serboi were Alan tribe. There is nothing in history that indicates that except for single statement of wikipedia that is given without reference. I think that Serboi are same as Serians of Seneca. Serians of Seneca did live in Caspian highlands of Sarmatia Asiatica, but were not Sarmatian, and not Alans.. they might have been closest neighbours to Alans. Serians of Seneca do live in extremely friendly relationship with Sarmatians as they live completely unguarded from Sarmatians...

Positiion of Serboi does match somewhat elevated area of haplogroup I, same as position of Siraces in Kuban region does... for me this is enough to conclude that Serboi/Siraces have likely been haplogroup I, same as Pastun Sarbans, and Serians of northwest China... all that correlation between haplogroup I and spread opf Serians, coupled with Serbs being round 50% haplogroup is my basis to claim that Serians mention by Seneca are proto-Serbs.

Those Serians are I think the same as Zeruiani of Baavarian geographer, the ones whose state was so big that all Slavs origin from that state...


I think Serians of northwest China, of arc from there to India, of Red sea, and of Caspian highlands are easy to identify in known historic people who lived there (respectively Seres, Sheba/Sabeans and Serboi/Siraces). Obvious remains of arc of Serians from China to India are Pasthun Sarbans. So I have no doubts about those people.

My doubts are related to who are European Serians...were that Scordisci/Serdi, Boii, Cimbri, Carpi, Thracians, Dacians... several of those tribes... that is what I am curious about...

Concerning Alans, they were probably not dominantly group I, but probably group G...you can see that in Iberian peninsula...

proto-Serbs are likely Serians, and thus have nothing to do with Sarmatians except some of their tribes were living in Sarmatia, and have nothing to do with Alans, except being good neighbours... btw. Sarmatia as Germania is about style of life... not about origin... Sarmatia is area where people live as nomads, while Germania is about living in households.. that was the criteria that Greek and Roman historians used to classify tribes... that says nothing of origin....only about culture...

proto-Serbs are likely part of larger tribal group of Veneti...

I think that Sarmatians were tribes of different origin - some were R1a dominant (as Sarmatians origin from Scythians), some were G (e.g. Alans and Iazyges and Ossetians (fact that Russians called them Jasi people = Iazyges does not exclude Osetians descending from Alans, as for Slavic Russians, iranian speaking Sarmatian Alans = iranian speaking Sarmatian Iazyges = iranian speaking Sarmatian Ossets) who origin from them) and some were I2a2 (as Antes who as other Veneti tribes origin from Paplagonia Eneti)

Keep in mind that early Slavs are in history described as populous race of Veneti (Jordanes). And I have shown that spread of early Slavs match I2a2 much much better than spread of R1a.. I did also show that Veneti are most likely candidate for source of I2a and I2a2... as I2a* is found only in area of Adriatic Veneti and Britanny Veneti, and as variance of I2a2 is highest in areas north of Adriatic (perhaps Adriatic Veneti related) and in area north of Black sea (Antes who are also of Veneti race according to Jordanes)

I also do not think Serbs were Slavicized. I think that Serbo-Croatian is native to I2a2 speakers. People who have changed language recently, tend to speak a lot using infinitives as they had difficulty to absorb grammar. That is phenomena common in north most Croats and also in Russians, and non existent in Serbs. Besides, Serb have saying "speak Serbian so that whole world understands you", which might indicate that I2 (including I2a1 and I2b1) has spread PIE language...

Regulus
14-01-11, 21:34
You caught me with your line about using infinitives. If I get confused speaking in Spanish about something that will happen and I need to use the future case, I cheat and use the "Going to 'Infinitive' " .

The future case for some reason has always given me problems. I was able to memorize almost all of the conjugations except for that one.
It never occurred to me that the method would be used by others. It makes sense. A people that aquire a new language would likely do the same.

Ivan
14-01-11, 22:05
As you mention some theory of mine, and find some holes in it, let's first see what is my theory... if there is such a thing, as I was often changing opinion and posting possibilities much more than some stable theory


I thought it is good to question some theories, a little more on details than to go into new ones so quickly.


my theory... if there is such a thing, as I was often changing opinion

I have noticed you have many of them and I did try to narrow down one of them, the one I am mostly interested in.


I do not think that Serboi were Alan tribe

That explains most of your ideas.


But I think these people explained most of it already:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAYDiPizDIs

how yes no 2
14-01-11, 23:03
I thought it is good to question some theories, a little more on details than to go into new ones so quickly.


my theory... if there is such a thing, as I was often changing opinion
I have noticed you have many of them and I did try to narrow down one of them, the one I am mostly interested in.


I think you might have a problem that you try to map single nation of today to only one tribe in past... what appears to be many theories may as well be converging to single theory that does map single nation of today to several tribes from past...





I do not think that Serboi were Alan tribe
That explains most of your ideas.

Find me single historic reference (not wikipedia sentence without reference) that relates Serboi with Alans...

while on other hand, from sentence of Seneca about Serians it seems to be clear that Serians are not same as Sarmatians although they live among them, same as Serboi and Alans live next to each other...

Btw. YDNA haplogroup of a person has not much to do with one's overall genetics as it traces only direct male line while all the zilion indirect lines are invisible in such a classification ... YDNA has not much meaning as an indicator of person's overall origin as it speaks only of very small part of person's origin...

well, let me draw that for you:
imagine yourself as a tree whose root is branching on two branches and every subbranch branching on 2 and every subbranch of subbranch branching on 2.... YDNA haplogroup is about single line is such a tree with your roots...one line out of many many lines that contribute to you genetically...

11 generations from you in past there are 2 ^10 = 1024 of your male ancestors...they have all contributed equally to your genetics, while your YDNA tell us only that one of those 1024 people was G2a while it tells us nothing about remaining 1023 of your male ancestors in 11th generation before you..

in other words, YDNA haplogroups are not so relevant for individual people, their importance is only in a sense that they allow us to track movements of groups of people....

your direct male line as G2a likely origin from Alans, but I do not think it is likely that proto-Serbs were Alans with dominant G haplogroup as G in Serbia is not really elevated compared to surroundings and because haplogroup I seems to map well to spread of Serians in Euroasia..

in fact, I do think that proto-Croats have much more chances to partially origin from Sarmatian Alans than proto-Serbs do... from what I see actual settlement area of proto-Croats (on south delimited with river Cetina south of Split and on north at most up to Rijeka) was not really sampled, only areas around it were....and I remember reading on some forum few years ago about one genetic research done in Split that did not name haplogroups in results (as paper was not about origin of people), but that showed that G haplogroup was dominant in that area.... I do not know how credible author of that post was,and how much was he able to identify haplogroup based on markers, and even worse I do not know what was the place where I read it...that is the reason I keep telling that I would really like to see some data about Split and settlement area of proto-Croats...

that is also why I have several times on site asked Maciamo what is his source for elevated G in Croatia... I never got an answer.....

I also do not think that Alans were I2a2 people (as e.g. there is no I2a2 in Iberian peninsula or north Africa or Sardinia, while there is G)

Ivan
14-01-11, 23:16
I think you might have a problem that you try to map single nation of today to only one tribe in past...No.

I wrote on other posts I think Serboi and Choroati are just names
adopted by Slavic population of ruling elite of sarmatians which are originaly theirs. Those white Serbs and White Croats came to I2a2 of Balkans, with already assimilated G2a and some I of Sarmatia.



I know I am pretty much boring, so this must be a reason you do not read everything I write.

Those elevated G in Osijek are my relatives. Read the post from "new data from Serbia..." i wrote
about that and of above mentioned.


. YDNA haplogroup of a person has not much to do with one's overall genetics as it traces only direct male line while all the zilion indirect lines are invisible in such a classification ... YDNA has not much meaning as an indicator of person's overall origin as it speaks only of very small part of person's origin..Every gene matters. Nature intended this one to be less changable, so we can use that trait today.

It actually is the only way to be sure of someones origin when included with archeology and history. Y gene is maybe small (2%) of genetics. But we do share 95% with monkies and some 90% with pigs. So most of genes information is about not having a tail...

I was also believer that genes that change a lot have much more to do with our physical and mental traits. Now I think genes that are in fact small but change a little have more important role to human evolution than we think.


well, let me draw that for you:I am maybe much more visual type, but you don't have draw to me that.


Find me single historic reference (not wikipedia sentence without reference) that relates Serboi with Alans...

Don't be so hard on wikipedia. It is a nice start for beginners.
It doesn't mean what they say was not truth, but not so much into details.
Actually Serbian and Croatian iranian origin is teached on some univeristies. They could be wrong and you could be right but as you said it is just a theory.
Have you seen the movie?

how yes no 2
14-01-11, 23:46
No.
I wrote on other posts I think Serboi and Choroati are just names
adopted by Slavic population of ruling elite of sarmatians which are originaly theirs. Those white Serbs and White Croats came to I2a2 of Balkans, with already assimilated G2a and some I of Sarmatia.
that is theory that you choose as most likely....and in the times when I started to write these posts I would agree with it...
however now I relate proto-Serbs to Serians who are I haplogroup...


I know I am pretty much boring, so this must be a reason you do not read everything I write.
you are not boring


Those elevated G in Osijek are my relatives. Read the post from "new data from Serbia..." i wrote
about that and of above mentioned.
Osijek is in the area or more likely near the area where Sarmatian Iazyges/Iasi people lived...

Ossetians are by Russians called Iasi people...they are only nation in Caucasus that speaks iranian language... they are thought to descend from Sarmatians (iranian speaking people), namely from Alans... Ossetians are dominantly haplogroup G

so, direct male ancestor of your family is maybe related to Iazyges....


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/Roman_Empire_125.png/735px-Roman_Empire_125.png



Every gene matters. Nature intended this one to be less changable, so we can use that trait today.

It actually is the only way to be sure of someones origin when included with archeology and history. Y gene is maybe small (2%) of genetics. But we do share 95% with monkies and some 90% with pigs. So most of genes information is about not having a tail... this is not correct reasoning.... learn more on topic...



Have you seen the movie?
yes, but I do not find it good comparison with my posts on this forum....

Shetop
15-01-11, 00:02
But the Croats at that time were dwelling beyond Bavaria, where the Belocroats are now. From them split off a family of five brothers, Kloukas and Lobelos and Kosentzis and Mouchlo and Chrobatos, and two sisters, Touga and Bouga, who came with their folk to Dalmatia and found the Avars in possession of that land. After they had fought one another for some vears, the Croats prevailed and killed some of the Avars and the remainder they compelled to be subject to them. And so from that time this land was possessed by the Croats, and there are still in Croatia some who are of Avar descent and are recognized as Avars.

And since what is now Serbia and Pagania and the so-called country of the Zachlumi and Terbounia and the country of the Kanalites were under the dominion of the emperor of the Romans, and since these countries had been made desolate by the Avars (for they had expelled from those parts the Romani who now live in Dalmatia and Dyrrachium), therefore the emperor settled these same Serbs in these countries, and they were subject to the emperor of the Romans;
De Administrando Imperio ( http://www.indopedia.org/De_Administrando_Imperio.html)

I have a question for all those who are saying I2a2a-Dinaric was present in the Balkans before migration period.
How do you explain that regions settled by Croats and Serbs fully coincide with the maximum frequency of I2a2a-Dinaric?

Pay attention to a fact that this is the case for not one but two tribes. Those familiar with probability theories know that this kind of coincidence is almost impossible.

Ivan
15-01-11, 00:09
this is not correct reasoning.... learn more on topic...


What exactly is not right? That 95% of our genes speak some not so much human story.

I believe Y chromosome changes a little for a reason. I believe it gives overall tone of ones character. It is, for me only, a matter of believe, that I came upon by surprise of how similar (by my own standards) people of my Y group were.
As I said it is something what I firmly believe, based upon my own experiences with people. I really don't need proof for my believes, so I could be wrong, but my instinct tells me different. I will reserve my right to believe in that.


yes, but I do not find it good comparison with my posts on this forum....

Believe it or not, I actually wanted to cool down this topic.
It was not originally aimed at you, but this conversation and other in general when people forget it is just a theory...

how yes no 2
15-01-11, 00:10
De Administrando Imperio ( http://www.indopedia.org/De_Administrando_Imperio.html)
I have a question for all those who are saying I2a2a-Dinaric was present in the Balkans before migration period.
How do you explain that regions settled by Croats and Serbs fully coincide with the maximum frequency of I2a2a-Dinaric?
Pay attention to a fact that this is the case for not one but two tribes. Those familiar with probability theories know that this kind of coincidence is almost impossible.
although I agree that most of I2a2 is related to proto-Serb and proto-Croats (though it may in addition be related to previous inhabitants who might have been related or same people)

I need to notice that you cannot claim that spread of I2a2 fully coincides with spread of Serbs and Croats....as regions of Serbia are not sampled, and as in Croatia sampling of the regions was done on very small sample (except of 3 south most islands and one north island) and sampling seems to have skipped the are that was settled by proto-Croats, and that maps provided seems to show that north most Kaikavian speaking Croats are not I2a2 related.....

Shetop
15-01-11, 00:14
I need to notice that you cannot claim that spread of I2a2 fully coincides with spread of Serbs and Croats....as regions of Serbia are not sampled, and as in Croatia sampling of the regions was done on very small sample (except of 3 south most islands and one north island) and sampling seems to have skipped the are that was settled by proto-Croats, and that maps provided seems to show that north most Kaikavian speaking Croats are not I2a2 related.....

Are you saying that I2a2a-Dinaric doesn't have maximum frequency in Dalmatia and Herzegovina? If that is what you are saying please tell us where is the maximum frequency for I2a2a-Dinaric?

how yes no 2
15-01-11, 00:19
What exactly is not right? That 95% of our genes speak some not so much human story.
you say 95% is about being human and the rest 5% is practically split between direct male line and direct female line..

I am not an expert either, but I am sure it's not like that as there is recombination of genes...and one does in fact inherit a lot from indirect lines...



I believe Y chromosome changes a little for a reason. I believe it gives overall tone of ones character. It is, for me only, a matter of believe, that I came upon by surprise of how similar (by my own standards) people of my Y group were.
As I said it is something what I firmly believe, based upon my own experiences with people. I really don't need proof for my believes, so I could be wrong, but my instinct tells me different. I will reserve my right to believe in that.

interesting theory....
but for how many people you know haplogroups...
I do not know haplogroup of anyone from real (not internet) life


Believe it or not, I actually wanted to cool down this topic.
It was not originally aimed at you, but this conversation and other in general when people forget it is just a theory...
It's not that I was offended or something...

true, those are just theories...

Shetop
15-01-11, 00:21
although I agree that most of I2a2 is related to proto-Serb and proto-Croats (though it may in addition be related to previous inhabitants who might have been related or same people)

Until now no significant difference in haplotypes have been found among I2a2a-Dinaric in western Balkans, that is there is no such difference which would indicate two distant populations.
These people either came all together or maybe one group came several decades before the other.

how yes no 2
15-01-11, 00:24
Are you saying that I2a2a-Dinaric doesn't have maximum frequency in Dalmatia and Herzegovina? If that is what you are saying please tell us where is the maximum frequency for I2a2a-Dinaric?
there is maximum frequency of E-V13 is Kosovo, but that doesnot tell us that spread of E-V13 in Europe coincides with Albanians... in fact, maximum in Albanians of Kosovo may as well be due to their recent common origin due to enormous population rate

I didnot pay attention when reading your post... I saw it as attempt to say that I2a2 matches exactly spread of Serbs and Croats which is hard to claim as sampling should be much better for such a claim.... maximum frequency indeed matches Serbs and Croat settlement, but that may be misleading...

btw. I also think that proto-Serbs and proto-Croats were mostly I2a2, but I think previous inhabitants might have been as well, as I think that it might as well be the case that Serbs and Croats didnot settle the areas in 7th century, but that some of Serb and Croats tribes settled among some related or same people ... you remmeber my argument about Pannonian Illyrian Oseriates being pre-Slavic tribe as their name has a meaning (lake people) only in Slavic languages and that meaning matches their location (Plitvice system of lakes)...similarly I think that tribal names Scordisci and Serdi are identical people, and that it is very likely that both are related to proto-Serbs


Until now no significant difference in haplotypes have been found among I2a2a-Dinaric in western Balkans, that is there is no such difference which would indicate two distant populations.
These people either came all together or maybe one group came several decades before the other.
I believe that previous inhabitants were related or same people as Serbs and Croats... most people are conditioned to think one tribe = one location in one point of time and one single tribal name recorded by historians.... but I am pretty sure it was not like that...

e.g. look at Alani in year 500 AD
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/500/entity_6193.html

Shetop
15-01-11, 00:32
there is maximum frequency of E-V13 is Kosovo, but that doesnot tell us that spread of E-V13 in Europe coincides with Albanians... in fact, maximum in Albanians of Kosovo may as well be due to their recent common origin due to enormous population rate
I2a2 has maximum frequency in south most Dalmatia (Dubrovnik, Hvar, Brac, Krk)..central and north Dalmatia are not really sampled....
I also think that proto-Serbs and proto-Croats were mostly I2a2
but there is big difference between saying I think, and claiming that spread of I2a2 fully coincides with Serbs and Croats, as that cannot be claimed based on sampling done so far...

Your E-V13 example has nothing to do with this issue. It can't be used to explain something about most important historical document for South Slavs pointing to exact region with particular dominant Y-DNA.

And regarding you repeating that nothing is for sure, I will say that now we have enough facts and knowledge from history and genetics to make conclusions. We don't need to assume anything any more and think different theories or wait for more genetic data (which will I believe say nothing special in the near future).

We have all we need to explain I2a2a-Dinaric. It came from Ukraine in the early middle ages.

Shetop
15-01-11, 00:42
I believe that previous inhabitants were related or same people as Serbs and Croats... most people are conditioned to think one tribe = one location in one point of time and one single tribal name recorded by historians.... but I am pretty sure it was not like that...
e.g. look at Alani in year 500 AD
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/500/entity_6193.html

But from geneticists such as Ken Nordtvedt or Vadim Verenich we have the knowledge that I2a2a-Dinaric is of such structure indicating that these people lived in the same territory at least until Common Era. Dinaric haplotypes are so close that it wasn’t possible some I2a2a-Dinaric tribes were in Balkans and another were somewhere else.
I2a2a-Dinaric had its common territory before Common Era and it was not western Balkans.

how yes no 2
15-01-11, 00:42
Your E-V13 example has nothing to do with this issue. It can't be used to explain something about most important historical document for South Slavs pointing to exact region with particular dominant Y-DNA.
And regarding you repeating that nothing is for sure, I will say that now we have enough facts and knowledge from history and genetics to make conclusions. We don't need to assume anything any more and think different theories or wait for more genetic data (which will I believe say nothing special in the near future).

read again...I have extended post to express better my viewpoint...


We have all we need to explain I2a2a-Dinaric. It came from Ukraine in the early middle ages.
no, there is absolutely not enough data for such a conclusion... and I am sure it is not correct...
don't make religion of your beliefs..

I believe I2a2 is related to tribes that origin from Paplagonia Eneti (who were kicked out of Asia minor somewhat after Trojan war) ...and those are Adriatic Veneti, Vistula Veneti and Sarmatian Veneti whom I think are Antes....

early Slavs match spread of I2a2 and are by Jordanes mentioned as populous race of Veneti...

Shetop
15-01-11, 00:50
no, there is not enough data for such a conclusion...
don't make religion of your beliefs..

I see nothing wrong in being absolutely sure about an issue such as this.
Also I'm not the only one, serious researchers are beginning to understand that high frequency of I2a2a-Dinaric in the western Balkans doesn't mean it was its place of origin, but completely opposite - the place of the most recent arrival.

how yes no 2
15-01-11, 00:52
I see nothing wrong in being absolutely sure about an issue such as this.
Also I'm not the only one, serious researchers are beginning to understand that high frequency of I2a2a-Dinaric in the western Balkans doesn't mean it was its place of origin, but completely opposite - the place of the most recent arrival.

again, I agree it is related to recent arrival...
I claim it was also there before that arrival...

I claim that both most of previous people and later Slavic settlers are from same populous race of Veneti...

Shetop
15-01-11, 00:53
I believe I2a2 is related to tribes that origin from Paplagonia Eneti (who were kicked out of Asia minor somewhat after Trojan war) ...and those are Adriatic Veneti, Vistula Veneti and Sarmatian Veneti whom I think are Antes....
early Slavs match spread of I2a2 and are by Jordanes mentioned as populous race of Veneti...

Read my previous posts. It is not possible I2a2a-Dinaric was that scattered as were these tribes, there are genetic researches explaining this.

Shetop
15-01-11, 00:55
I claim that both most of previous people and later Slavic settlers are from same populous race of Veneti...

And again genetic science provided knowledge that this is not possible. Read previous posts or read Ken Nordvedt or Vadim Verenich.

how yes no 2
15-01-11, 01:14
And again genetic science provided knowledge that this is not possible. Read previous posts or read Ken Nordvedt or Vadim Verenich.
you mentioned before Ken Nodrvedt... I see no reason why his theories claimed on some mailing list should be taken for granted... show me his published article about I2a2-Dinaric if you want to claim him as authority ... publishing ideas of course doesnot mean they are correct... but it does give a grain of credibility...

who the ... is Vadim Verenich and why should he be credible source or undeniable authority regarding this topic...

Shetop
15-01-11, 01:18
you mentioned before Ken Nodrvedt... I see no reason why his theories claimed on some mailing list should be taken for granted... show me his published article about I2a2-Dinaric if you want to claim him as authority ... publishing ideas of course doesnot mean they are correct... but it does give a grain of credibility...
who the ... is Vadim Verenich and why should he be credible source or undeniable authority regarding this topic...

These two people know much more about genetics than all which have ever written in this forum. If that is not enough for someone I don't know what is.

Ivan
15-01-11, 01:18
interesting theory....
but for how many people you know haplogroups...
I do not know haplogroup of anyone from real (not internet) lifeIt is not a theory since it is not scientificaly provable. You just can believe, if you want, that I experienced what I said I did.

how yes no 2
15-01-11, 01:33
These two people know much more about genetics than all which have ever written in this forum. If that is not enough for someone I don't know what is.
so?

it is not really possible to determine when mutation in a haplogroup happened...
they as everybody else just use some supposed models based on ad-hoc parameters... there is no way to verify such models and assumptions about parameters...

mutations are random...what they try to do is to claim there is definite law that determines this randomness.... but even if there is such a law, they still do not have history data that would allow them to decipher it, as there are no genetic samples (adorned with dates of birth) of people related via father-son relation stretching for tens of thousands of years in distant past ....

basically, all data about oldness of haplogroups is based on guessing parameters of the model while there is no way to verify neither the model nor the parameters used... it is laughable to give credibility to such approximations...

Ivan
15-01-11, 02:12
How Yes No,

If your theory was right,

-What do you think, what % were Serians compared to local population on arrival?

iapetoc
15-01-11, 04:26
ok pals i cant write any more in that forum,
exept that
voij-votina = duke area or
boii-vodena the waters of boii
only personal messages,,

i simply post that moesians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysians
greek ilias iljias
hettit ilazza

city milazza

and that
κιλικια kilikia or cilicia ->>> cicily? calikia->carikia or just likia
lycaonia
caria
lydia
mysia ???? naaa just pass or unite? hmm
the north to geta-dacia

Mossynoeci
Moschoi (mosxoi = small bulls) small tauri
Mingrelian what a coisidence people of there are Mega elian
as greek people of pontus are trant -elian big elian
but that has to with byzantines or the 8 % greeks in ossetia? and 12% in georgia?
or the 13 big colonies miletus sinopean, hmm

corinth carinth
lellekes
illyria
carniola carnius apollo sparta
Liburnia libua libas in greek the south west wind ???? bor the north wind

Liburnia libu(sni)a or li-bur-nia
the 2nd way to tosk-albania
also cimmerians
chimmerians himmera (greek colonie) chimara greek city
chamerians (south albanian tribe)

Βελλεροφόντης from ΤΥΡΙΝΘΑ Tyrinth (Bellerofonte)
Hercules was from argus argean

must find him to tell us about solumae and chimera

besides sea people maybe never had a word about sea !!!!!!! no words in lingua

messara (messachora) crete
messenia peloponese
messapic apulia italy
also
mane is peloponese and
mannae ??? hmmmm

besides
Achaemenians (http://www.artarena.force9.co.uk/ma.html) or agamemnians or agamemnon no way

and
The Lycaonians appear to have retained a distinct nationality in the time of Strabo, but their ethnical affinities are unknown. The mention of the Lycaonian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lycaonian_language&action=edit&redlink=1) in the Acts of the Apostles (14:11) shows that the native language was spoken by the common people at Lystra about 50; and probably it was only later and under Christian influence that Greek took its place. It is notable though that in the Acts of the Apostles Barnabas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnabas) was called Zeus, and Paul was said to be very short and covered with pustules by Lycaonians, and this makes some other researchers to believe that Lycaonian language was actually a Greek dialect, the remnant of which can still be found in the Cappadocian Greek language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greek_language) which is classified as a distinct Greek dialect.
There is a theory that the name "Lycaonia" is a Greek-adapted version (influenced by the Greek man's name Lycaon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycaon)) of an original Lukkawanna, which would mean "the land of the Lukka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lukka) people" in an old Anatolian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages) language related to Hittite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_language).


so the myceneans? they came from rusia or were they hettit?
if in not of hettit

is the myceneans also the THRACIANS?????????
i mean carries of R1a?
or they came from celt?


the fact is though ages words


before homer stone
gr la- lavris latipa
latin lapis

the word has only similarity with latin

weapons

the axe
gr aksis and xifei
to all PIE

but tsekouri?????? hmmmm

besides tribali ->sribali ok

1) according to thoukidides atheneans old language was Tyrrshenian
2) and the godess of fertility before dimeter was SIRRIS

Shetop
15-01-11, 10:39
it is not really possible to determine when mutation in a haplogroup happened...
they as everybody else just use some supposed models based on ad-hoc parameters... there is no way to verify such models and assumptions about parameters...

Can you provide some source which explains what you are saying about mutation rate?

I agree that reliability is not 100%, but disregarding this kind of analysis is very wrong. In fact genetic researchers always give range for their age calculations, precisely because they know that 100% accuracy is not possible.

Basically what you are saying is that all they are doing is useless. In that case you should not write on genetics forum, but you should offer you "name similarity" theories on some science-fiction forum.

Garrick
15-01-11, 13:48
Can you provide some source which explains what you are saying about mutation rate?

I agree that reliability is not 100%, but disregarding this kind of analysis is very wrong. In fact genetic researchers always give range for their age calculations, precisely because they know that 100% accuracy is not possible.

Basically what you are saying is that all they are doing is useless. In that case you should not write on genetics forum, but you should offer you "name similarity" theories on some science-fiction forum.

Shetop
How yes no
Ivan

Your discussion was excellent.

Things should be viewed from different angles and should argue, because it is the right way to approach the real flows in the past.


Shetop
(for methods)
I gave a post on the topic of the Berbers and the Albanians where estimates of different researchers are different for 10,000 and over years.

how yes no 2
15-01-11, 17:14
Can you provide some source which explains what you are saying about mutation rate?
I agree that reliability is not 100%, but disregarding this kind of analysis is very wrong. In fact genetic researchers always give range for their age calculations, precisely because they know that 100% accuracy is not possible.
Basically what you are saying is that all they are doing is useless. In that case you should not write on genetics forum, but you should offer you "name similarity" theories on some science-fiction forum.

Show me model that you believe in and I will find you weak points.

But I do not believe it is possible to make such a model. You can apply statistics and search for models and lets call it laws that determine randomness only when there is enormous number of events. However, YDNA is very small part of genes and haplogroups are defined on basis of very limited number of mutations. So any method based on statistics is unreliable. It is as knowing that average life length in some country is 70 years, and than applying that to single person you know from that country, telling it is impossible person died at age of 20 or 150 as life expectancy is 70.

I do not need any source to tell you that mutation rate is not something fixed. It largely depend on environment in which one lives. It is well known that there are in nature substances that can act as catalysts that speeds up mutation. E.g. you have two brothers Peter and Mike. Mike is bit adventurer and not so smart and he decides to travel on his bike through Chernobyl area to see how impact of radiation looks like. Now due to radiation being powerfuil mutagen he is likely to acquire and pass to his son in single generation more mutations than people who orign from Peter will in 10 generations. I bet no model takes into account influence of environment, as it is impossible to make a model that will take into account. And it's just not a factor whose influence can be considered negligible.

Furthermore, what is span between generations you would take into account when making a model... it is very culture dependent and trend changes with time....do people make kids in their high school, or in they 40s...
if they make children in age of 20 in average you have 5 generations in century, but if they make them at age of 35 you have around 3 generations per century..... we have no clue how this number have changed over history...

point is that any model that tries to calculate times when specific genetic mutation happened is flawed in its basis...well, it is much more ad-hoc estimation than e.g. trying to deduce exact time span of individual who lived 500 generations ago based on ideas about average life length now, as it tries to superimpose on top of that statistical law that will determine which person in these 500 generations is responsible for mutation that took place.... applying such a model to Peter and Mike, it may tell you that there was e.g. 200 generations between Mike and his son...

how yes no 2
15-01-11, 18:23
How Yes No,
If your theory was right,
-What do you think, what % were Serians compared to local population on arrival?

I think I2a2 Serians have already long time ago lived in area of Balkans and west part of Asia minor...what happened in 7th century was arrival of related Croats and arrival of small group of other Serians proto-Serbs.....

look at Lydia on this map and compare with I2a2 spread

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Map_of_Lydia_ancient_times.jpg
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif
key town of Lydia is Sardis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardis

Eneti are related I2a2 people who were much earlier kicked from Asia minor and settled along north Adriatic coast (Adriatic Veneti, btw. Liburnians were likely also Venetic), around Vistula (Vistula Veneti) and around Black sea (giving Sarmatian Venedi who are likely same as Antes tribe mentioned both as Sarmatian and as a tribe of Veneti race)

removal of Eneti from Paphlagonia is the reason why I2a2 in west of Asia minor is separated from island of I2a2 in east Asia minor.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg/800px-Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg.png


we know thatearly Slavs are identified by Jordanes as populous race of Veneti... and we can also see that known spread of early Slavs does match pretty well directions of spread of I2a2 (disregarding the Balkan spread)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Origins_500A.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg/483px-Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg



maybe I2a2-Dinaric South are Serians, while I2a2-Dinaric North are Veneti...

I2a2 Serians of Asia and Balkan might have been pushed somewhat towards west and north with advance of E-V13 Dardanians....they did retake some of the lost positions during Celtic expansion....


Serians of northwest China are also known by Greeks as Seres, which is identical name as town Serres in Greek Macedonia.



Sérres (Greek: Σέρρες, older form: Σέρραι Sérrai) is a city in Macedonia, Greece. ....
The Greek historian Herodotus mentions the city as Siris (Σίρις) in the 5th century BC. Theopompus refers to the city as Sirra (Σίρρα). Later, it is mentioned as Sirae, in the plural, by the Roman historian Livy. Since then the name of the city has remained in plural and by the 5th century AD it was already in the contemporary form as Serrae (Σέρραι). It is known as Ser in both Macedonian Slavic and Serbian, while in Bulgarian it is known as Syar (Сяр) or Ser (Сер), which can be deducted from the spelling before 1947 as 'Сѣръ', thus capturing both the 'ya' and 'e' sounds. The Katharevousa form for the name of the city was Sérrai (Σέρραι). It was known as Serez or Siroz in Turkish.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serrai


The Scordisci (Greek,"Σκορδίσκοι") were an ancient Celtic tribe centered in what would become the Roman Provinces of lower Pannonia, Moesia and present-day Serbia at the confluence of the Savus[1] (Sava), Dravus[2] (Drava) and Danube rivers. They were historically notable from the beginning of the third century BC until the turn of the common era. At their zenith, their influence stretched over regions comprising parts of the present-day Austria, Croatia, Hungary, Serbia, Slovenia, Slovakia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Their tribal name may be connected to the name of the Scordus[3] mountain (Šar mountain) which was located between the regions of Illyria and Paionia.]
...
The ethnic affiliation of the Scordisci has been debated by historians. Some refer to them as Celtic[4][5][6],Thracian[7] or Illyrian[8] or a Celtic mix of the above[9].The Scordisci were found during different timelines in Illyria,Thrace and Dacia sometimes splitting into more than one group like the Scordisci Major and the Scordisci Minor[10].
...
According to onosmatic evidence, Scordiscan settlements to the east of the Morava river were Thracianized[15].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

Sar mountain is in areas of northwest Macedonia, north east Albania and southeast Kosovo and Metohija...


I think what happened in 7th century with supposed arrival of Serbs
was comparable with earlier arrival of Serdi from zone controlled by Scordisci...Some of Serians moved from one settlement area to another within their larger zone of influence....


The Serdi were a Celtic tribe[1] inhabiting Thrace. They were located around Serdika,(Greek: Σαρδική or Σαρδῶν πόλις)[2]. They established themselves in this area during the Celtic migrations at the end of the 4th century BC. There is no evidence for their existence before the 1st century BC. They were gradually Thracianized over the centuries but retained their Celtic character up to a late date.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/ThracianTribes.jpg/300px-ThracianTribes.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi

Sofia was originally a Thracian settlement called Serdica or Sardica (Greek: Σερδική, Σαρδική), named after the Celtic[1] tribe Serdi that had populated it.For a short period during the 4th century B.O.T, the city was possessed by Philip of Macedon and his son Alexander the Great.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardica

Now in Serdi we have both Thracian language and self-identification that can be source of tribal name Rascians to later Serb medieval state, and we have likely origin from likely I2a2 Scordisci..

language of Thracians is known to have been satem IE though it seems to have been closer to language of Balts than to the one of Slavs...

Yorkie
15-01-11, 21:09
Until now no significant difference in haplotypes have been found among I2a2a-Dinaric in western Balkans, that is there is no such difference which would indicate two distant populations.
These people either came all together or maybe one group came several decades before the other.

Whether the following is evidence of a significant difference in haplotypes is up to debate, and, of course, it all depends upon whether one takes Ken Nordtvedt's work seriously. Admittedly, his observation that I2a2a-Dinaric with dys 19=14 is massively concentrated in Croatian populations rather than the 16, 15 or less commonly, 17, at dys 19 has not been published.

However, I cautiously view this definate pattern as possible evidence of 'two distant populations'. The pattern is there...

how yes no 2
15-01-11, 21:31
Whether the following is evidence of a significant difference in haplotypes is up to debate, and, of course, it all depends upon whether one takes Ken Nordtvedt's work seriously. Admittedly, his observation that I2a2a-Dinaric with dys 19=14 is massively concentrated in Croatian populations rather than the 16, 15 or less commonly, 17, at dys 19 has not been published.

However, I cautiously view this definate pattern as possible evidence of 'two distant populations'. The pattern is there...

as far as I know there is no publicly available data for actual markers of samples obtained in Croatia
but yes, what you say seems to be in correspondence with publicly available data for Serbia and Montenegro

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo

where in data for Serbia only one of 69 I2a2 samples (out of 179 samples in total) has dys 19 = 14

and in data for Montenegro only 3 out of 120 I2a samples (out of 404 samples in total) has dys 19 = 14

btw. this also discards validity of recent invent of some politically motivated quasi-scientists from Montenegro and Croatia that people of Montenegro are red (south) Croats...

Ivan
15-01-11, 21:36
DYS 19 can be the same even in between groups in G2a and I2b1

Yorkie
15-01-11, 21:43
as far as I know there is no publicly available data for samples obtained in Croats
but yes, what you say seems to be in correspondence with publicly available data for Serbia and Montenegro

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo

where in data for Serbia only one of 69 I2a2 samples (out of 179 samples in total) has dys 19 = 14

and in data for Montenegro only 3 out of 120 I2a samples (out of 404 samples in total) has dys 19 = 14

btw. this also discards validity of recent invent of some politically motivated quasi-scientists from Montenegro and Croatia that people of Montenegro are red (south) Croats...

Yes, there is definately a pattern there that we can't ignore. I suppose that I have 'no dog in the fight' being English and of a different kind of I2a2 [I2a2b-Isles], but I would like to get to 'the truth' in these matters. The problem, as you suggest, is the violently political nature of the subject. The politics of ethnic identity in the Balkans is a most serious topic. After all, many have died for what they see as a fight to preserve their own ethnic identities.

Even if it can be proved that we have 'two distant populations' here, they are still ultimately related being I2a2, and ultimately of the wider I haplogroup 'clan'.The commonalities and close genetic relationship outweigh any differences in my mind. The problem is, many would dissent from my 'moderate' position, and I suppose it is easy for me to say this without experience of serious ethnic conflict.

Regards to you and to Shetop. :smile:

Shetop
15-01-11, 21:58
Whether the following is evidence of a significant difference in haplotypes is up to debate, and, of course, it all depends upon whether one takes Ken Nordtvedt's work seriously. Admittedly, his observation that I2a2a-Dinaric with dys 19=14 is massively concentrated in Croatian populations rather than the 16, 15 or less commonly, 17, at dys 19 has not been published.

However, I cautiously view this definate pattern as possible evidence of 'two distant populations'. The pattern is there...

As far as I've investigated dys 19=14 represents around 10% of all Croatian I2a2a-Dinaric variety. All of them are dys 448=19, thus they are all probably one branch of Dinaric South.

This pattern is indeed specific for Croatians but since it doesn't have high frequency it can't be said it distinguishes whole Croatian I2a2a-Dinaric from Serbian I2a2a-Dinaric.

Ivan
15-01-11, 22:17
What is the correlation between DYS 19 and time?

In calculating someones genetic distance there is no mention of this or any particular DYS.
It is calculated just as so called number of matching (not relating to any specific DYS), with percentages of possibility of sharing a common ancestor in a genealogical time frame with calculated mutation rate ( based on a University of Arizona's mutation rate study).