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rene
30-04-10, 21:49
hi
i know my paternal linage back to 1730 from city of shiraz from a lore tribe called zand and i found i have Y HG T.
i wonder which ancient peoplein iran or mesoptamie had this kind of Y HG before arrival of aryans with R1a y hg ?
regards

adamo
10-04-13, 20:17
I'm italian from campania province southern Italy. I also have haplogroup t (M70) lineage and my sub-group is L299. Those are the paternal haplogroup results I received from the genographic project 2.0. I'm one of those Italians that has jet black hair and olive skin so naturally I always suspected I had some form of Assyrian or Mesopotamian influence in my blood. I was surprised that I don't harbour the J-M172 lineage (haplogroup j2) as this is the typical northern middle-eastern Fertile Crescent haplogroup,( it is also found in 20-25% of italian men.) instead, belonging to hg T this is MUCH rarer ( 4% of Italians). Information on our haplogroup is as scarce as the lineage itself but according to information given to me upon having received my results, haplogroup T is found in 20% of Jordanian men, up to 16% of Egyptian men in certain regions, 5 to 17% of Sicilian males, 13% of Iraqi men, and it is quite prevalent in Mizrahim Jews ( middle eastern Jews) such as Iraqi Jews (18%) iranian Jews (14%) and Kurdish Jews (22%) It is also found in 10 to 13% of Assyrian males near Anatolia. In Europe, it is found in a few isolated hotspots: the Balearic islands off the coast of Spain (16%) , Italy (4%) Sicily (5-17%) and small isolated regions of Germany (3-24%). Surprisingly, Somalia and Ethiopia both have about 14% haplogroup T but I can confirm from my own Assyrian/ Mesopotamian looks that it did not originate there; it must have arrived there from the Middle East. There are also a few tiny hotspots in India belonging to Bauris and Gond Indians but there too the haplogroup T arrived from a different source location, the Middle East. What is so confusing about this lineage is its patchy distribution ad it's low percentages all across the map even in it's middle eastern hotspots of 10-15%. Thus it is difficult to discover EXACTLY where it first originated or whether it is a Jewish diaspora genetics or rare middle eastern blood. I have never seen a study say this but I can 100% confirm that JORDAN males have , on a national level, approximately 21% haplogroup T thanks to my genographic project 2.0 "results" presentation. Other people in the project that HAVE haplogroup T and that was placed very similar to me in the "Our Story" section was :
1.An italian man from Rofrano city, Salerno , campania , southern Italy
2. An Assyrian Iraqi man from Nineveh , Iraq 3. A Jew from Poland. 4. A man from Lucca, Italy. 5. Ashkenazi Jew from Germany/Austria. 6. A second polish Jew. 7. Man from Urmia , Iran ( according to personal family stories he may be a Kurdish Jew). 8. An American man who's ancestors came from England for as many generations as he can remember. 9. 10. Two men from Peru and El Salvador that believe they have Sephardic Jewish roots. 11. Me. 12. You. So there you have it, 12 individuals from various different ethnic origins that are haplogroup T (M70) positive

zanipolo
11-04-13, 08:03
I'm italian from campania province southern Italy. I also have haplogroup t (M70) lineage and my sub-group is L299. Those are the paternal haplogroup results I received from the genographic project 2.0. I'm one of those Italians that has jet black hair and olive skin so naturally I always suspected I had some form of Assyrian or Mesopotamian influence in my blood. I was surprised that I don't harbour the J-M172 lineage (haplogroup j2) as this is the typical northern middle-eastern Fertile Crescent haplogroup,( it is also found in 20-25% of italian men.) instead, belonging to hg T this is MUCH rarer ( 4% of Italians). Information on our haplogroup is as scarce as the lineage itself but according to information given to me upon having received my results, haplogroup T is found in 20% of Jordanian men, up to 16% of Egyptian men in certain regions, 5 to 17% of Sicilian males, 13% of Iraqi men, and it is quite prevalent in Mizrahim Jews ( middle eastern Jews) such as Iraqi Jews (18%) iranian Jews (14%) and Kurdish Jews (22%) It is also found in 10 to 13% of Assyrian males near Anatolia. In Europe, it is found in a few isolated hotspots: the Balearic islands off the coast of Spain (16%) , Italy (4%) Sicily (5-17%) and small isolated regions of Germany (3-24%). Surprisingly, Somalia and Ethiopia both have about 14% haplogroup T but I can confirm from my own Assyrian/ Mesopotamian looks that it did not originate there; it must have arrived there from the Middle East. There are also a few tiny hotspots in India belonging to Bauris and Gond Indians but there too the haplogroup T arrived from a different source location, the Middle East. What is so confusing about this lineage is its patchy distribution ad it's low percentages all across the map even in it's middle eastern hotspots of 10-15%. Thus it is difficult to discover EXACTLY where it first originated or whether it is a Jewish diaspora genetics or rare middle eastern blood. I have never seen a study say this but I can 100% confirm that JORDAN males have , on a national level, approximately 21% haplogroup T thanks to my genographic project 2.0 "results" presentation. Other people in the project that HAVE haplogroup T and that was placed very similar to me in the "Our Story" section was :
1.An italian man from Rofrano city, Salerno , campania , southern Italy
2. An Assyrian Iraqi man from Nineveh , Iraq 3. A Jew from Poland. 4. A man from Lucca, Italy. 5. Ashkenazi Jew from Germany/Austria. 6. A second polish Jew. 7. Man from Urmia , Iran ( according to personal family stories he may be a Kurdish Jew). 8. An American man who's ancestors came from England for as many generations as he can remember. 9. 10. Two men from Peru and El Salvador that believe they have Sephardic Jewish roots. 11. Me. 12. You. So there you have it, 12 individuals from various different ethnic origins that are haplogroup T (M70) positive


Hi , I am T as well

firstly, the terminology m70 is no longer used as the base, its M184
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184

Pre 2008 it was K2

Have you done any SNP tests?
I have I am L446 positive which is ( as per link)
T1a2b (L446) Found in Northwest Europe and eastern Alps.

I have tested for the palestine, jordanian and druze markers...all negative. so I checked with the
Armenian ftdna project site .......no luck ( although its a good site).

I only have matches with british people ( usually irish, cornish and scots ), central alpine people ( north italians, austrians and swiss ), some germans and a norwegian.

Also...check Isogg site ...it has some updates on SNP changes

And contact Mr. Henson at T project..he is helpful.

my chromosones via doug McDonald Audna admixture tests - below

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/9995/233243bga12.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/19/233243bga12.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

adamo
11-04-13, 09:06
All I know currently is that I am L299 positive which would put me in T1a1 ( found in northern Anatolia and Germany). What I have been wondering is where does this haplogroup originate? Is it a Jewish genetic marker? Is it very rare or have geneticists not quite yet analyzed samples from the correct places to find other hotspots? Is it true as stated in my genographic 2.0 results that 21% of Jordanian men have haplogroup T? I haven't come across any studies claiming this and information on the exact origin point of this lineage is so scarce that it is depressing to be a member of it lol... It seems to me as though every time Jewish people are involved the percentage goes higher for example Kurds and Iraqis don't have much haplogroup T but when we start talking of Kurdish JEWS and Iraqi JEWS its like an extra 10% of haplogroup T bringing it to 18-20%

zanipolo
11-04-13, 09:20
All I know currently is that I am L299 positive which would put me in T1a1 ( found in northern Anatolia and Germany). What I have been wondering is where does this haplogroup originate? Is it a Jewish genetic marker? Is it very rare or have geneticists not quite yet analyzed samples from the correct places to find other hotspots? Is it true as stated in my genographic 2.0 results that 21% of Jordanian men have haplogroup T? I haven't come across any studies claiming this and information on the exact origin point of this lineage is so scarce that it is depressing to be a member of it lol... It seems to me as though every time Jewish people are involved the percentage goes higher for example Kurds and Iraqis don't have much haplogroup T but when we start talking of Kurdish JEWS and Iraqi JEWS its like an extra 10% of haplogroup T bringing it to 18-20%

currently this marker is classified west-asian......basically old Persia.
The russians are talking about it being re-classified central-asian ...caspian sea area

It is not jewish , only some alleles are noted jewish and these are in nearly all haplogroups.....I have no jewishness ( tested)

here is more info
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=news

armenians and ancient assyrians have a lot of T

Jews stand out because they can afford the tests. but since I joined project T over a year ago , the numbers have doubled, usually more northern european and americans are the extra numbers , again costs.

adamo
11-04-13, 09:45
So I guess even though haplogroup T is found in maybe 10-13% of Assyrians, 10% of Druze people, 8% of Armenians, OVERALL it is found abundantly in a large number of these men from West Asia. This is in a sense the global maximum. It seems less to be found in entire populations and more to be found in certain isolated Middle East communities. Where the haplogroup T men overwhelmed or destroyed by haplogroup J1-J2 men and other more common Middle East lineages? Where their levels ALWAYS this low even in the " highest frequencies" of the Middle East? What about Jordan with its massive 21% of T, why all the T in this isolated pocket? Could this be the radiation point, the home of T? I know that T got to the Horn of Africa (Ethiopia and Somalia) from Egypt (and then subsequently to Fulbe of Cameroon from Horn of Africa) and it got to high percentage but small isolated pockets of India from the Iranian peninsula but can Jordan be the home of all T? I believe so but this is conflicting because the sister haplogroup of T , haplogroup L only significantly overlaps with T ( even if at, again, low percentages) in Iran thus symbolizing this may be the origin point of T , In Iran, a little more far out from the central Fertile Crescent (Iraq). This is evident if I look at maps of both haplogroup T and L, they overlaps in Iran, albeit, even if at unsatisfiyingly low percentages

zanipolo
11-04-13, 10:02
So I guess even though haplogroup T is found in maybe 10-13% of Assyrians, 10% of Druze people, 8% of Armenians, OVERALL it is found abundantly in a large number of these men from West Asia. This is in a sense the global maximum. It seems less to be found in entire populations and more to be found in certain isolated Middle East communities. Where the haplogroup T men overwhelmed or destroyed by haplogroup J1-J2 men and other more common Middle East lineages? Where their levels ALWAYS this low even in the " highest frequencies" of the Middle East? What about Jordan with its massive 21% of T, why all the T in this isolated pocket? Could this be the radiation point, the home of T? I know that T got to the Horn of Africa (Ethiopia and Somalia) from Egypt (and then subsequently to Fulbe of Cameroon from Horn of Africa) and it got to high percentage but small isolated pockets of India from the Iranian peninsula but can Jordan be the home of all T? I believe so but this is conflicting because the sister haplogroup of T , haplogroup L only significantly overlaps with T ( even if at, again, low percentages) in Iran thus symbolizing this may be the origin point of T , In Iran, a little more far out from the central Fertile Crescent (Iraq). This is evident if I look at maps of both haplogroup T and L, they overlaps in Iran, albeit, even if at unsatisfiyingly low percentages

I agree with Iran ( persia) that what I said as its birthplace. The african part is the so call back to africa theory which i placed a link on another T thread. The east african part for T was explained by someone, that it refers to Arab slave trade of africans in the 11th century onwards, there seems to be a lot of Gedrosian ( east iran ) T numbers in somalia

On the armenian thread , you can click the word map to bring up maps of T

My theory is that T will disappear in a 1000 year because I believe the older the markers the less sperm count...means less children.

adamo
11-04-13, 10:17
But we can't say that haplogroup T is Armenian.... It's found in only 6-8% of Armenians except for a village called Sasun in Anatolia that had 20% of T. Maybe they did not test regions of Armenia enough but I know that Armenians are high in J2 and R1b with some J1. Even Iran has such low levels except pockets of 10-13% in what I call the "Elamite" region of Iran near ancient Susa. Could this be the haplogroup of the ancient Elamites civilization but their numbers where dramatically reduced? The map on that website also does not show the 20% of Jordanians. And what about the 20% in Sasun, is this only for that city, did they test anywhere else near Sasun and the levels where low or they didn't even test? There must be some region where the levels are higher but they didn't even test yet, such a confusing haplogroup...... I am obsessed with finding a big national hotspot of more than 15-20% , I wonder if they will

zanipolo
11-04-13, 10:17
But we can't say that haplogroup T is Armenian.... It's found in only 6-8% of Armenians except for a village called Sasun in Anatolia that had 20% of T. Maybe they did not test regions of Armenia enough but I know that Armenians are high in J2 and R1b with some J1. Even Iran has such low levels except pockets of 10-13% in what I call the "Elamite" region of Iran near ancient Susa. Could this be the haplogroup of the ancient Elamites civilization but their numbers where dramatically reduced? The map on that website also does not show the 20% of Jordanians. And what about the 20% in Sasun, is this only for that city, did they test anywhere else near Sasun and the levels where low or they didn't even test? There must be some region where the levels are higher but they didn't even test yet, such a confusing haplogroup...... I am obsessed with finding a big national hotspot of more than 15-20% , I wonder if they will

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinborland/6243496848/

and also read the link inside this link

zanipolo
11-04-13, 10:26
But we can't say that haplogroup T is Armenian.... It's found in only 6-8% of Armenians except for a village called Sasun in Anatolia that had 20% of T. Maybe they did not test regions of Armenia enough but I know that Armenians are high in J2 and R1b with some J1. Even Iran has such low levels except pockets of 10-13% in what I call the "Elamite" region of Iran near ancient Susa. Could this be the haplogroup of the ancient Elamites civilization but their numbers where dramatically reduced? The map on that website also does not show the 20% of Jordanians. And what about the 20% in Sasun, is this only for that city, did they test anywhere else near Sasun and the levels where low or they didn't even test? There must be some region where the levels are higher but they didn't even test yet, such a confusing haplogroup...... I am obsessed with finding a big national hotspot of more than 15-20% , I wonder if they will

In europe you will never get in one area more than 10%.

I believe in went to central europe very early with the hunter gathers and pastoral farmers, possibly with G2a and J2 people. Ftdna ALPGEN shows are lot of people with this.

a man like doug form the university of Illinois, can find your Ydna back ground up to 2500 years....he is free..
I forgot his email link..maybe someone here has it.....or I can try to find it in my old PC

adamo
11-04-13, 10:37
Wow so Dravidian languages coincide with the minor spread of haplogroup T in India..... I still don't think at all that haplogroup T originated there in the high percentages areas of India or Horn of Africa or south Egypt or Oman area but I suppose in India it may have made a immigration linguistic impact. According to dating techniques the T in Egypt and Horn of Africa are older than the relatively young T from Oman supporting my hypothesis of T moving to Horn of Africa from Egypt with a much later movement from Middle East/Arabia to Oman. India I dont know the age of the haplogroup T but with the data there is Middle East T is the oldest of all thus signalling its origin point. In my opinion and according to the Wikipedia T-M184 map, T originally came either from the big 9-13% zone in southern Iran near the Elamite zone or the 7% zone covering Iraq

zanipolo
11-04-13, 10:41
Wow so Dravidian languages coincide with the minor spread of haplogroup T in India..... I still don't think at all that haplogroup T originated there in the high percentages areas of India or Horn of Africa or south Egypt or Oman area but I suppose in India it may have made a immigration linguistic impact. According to dating techniques the T in Egypt and Horn of Africa are older than the relatively young T from Oman supporting my hypothesis of T moving to Horn of Africa from Egypt with a much later movement from Middle East/Arabia to Oman. India I dont know the age of the haplogroup T but with the data there is Middle East T is the oldest of all thus signalling its origin point. In my opinion and according to the Wikipedia T-M184 map, T originally came either from the big 9-13% zone in southern Iran near the Elamite zone or the 7% zone covering Iraq

here is a 2008 post ....remember k2 was T then

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668035/

Yes, I saw egypt is older than the horn.....its also stated that thomas jefferson the USA president ( a long time ago ) and a T person, has origins in egypt pre the pharaohs....so there was early movement of markers then.

adamo
11-04-13, 10:51
I read somewhere that some geneticists thought T was the Phoenicians haplogroup because its found near Ibiza, In Sicily , in other Mediterranean Sea areas... But haplogroup T is barely found in Lebanon the so-called Phoenician "homeland". But then again Jordan is very near by so maybe this was the Phoenicians homeland. Other people say the Phoenicians where J2. Maybe the geneticists didn't test yet enough people or areas to find other high percentages I hope they test many more villages in the Middle East and find many more high percentages in isolated villages across Iraq or turkey, or maybe the haplogroup just isn't really there, maybe it does not follow or imitate J2, maybe it's a group going extinct with a history lost forever in some old destroyed civilization like the Elamites or Sumerians or something.... I'm trying to find studies or n formation on Jordanian people because their 21% takes place on a national level so understanding the Jordanian people may be my closest understanding of haplogroup T considering Iraq, Ian and the rest have it at too low a frequency to be considered Haplogroup T home or territory

adamo
11-04-13, 11:15
They need to do more genetic testing, write more studies and publish more conclusive results on our haplogroup, not enough info on it!! Makes me sad lol oh well then I guess I'll continue studying on the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan knowing that slightly more than twenty percent of them as T

zanipolo
11-04-13, 11:33
They need to do more genetic testing, write more studies and publish more conclusive results on our haplogroup, not enough info on it!! Makes me sad lol oh well then I guess I'll continue studying on the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan knowing that slightly more than twenty percent of them as T

you will find something in one of the links inside this link

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html

adamo
11-04-13, 12:31
Thank you, interesting website. I have also found an area stretching from Sasun in turkey (eastern turkey near Erzurum) bypassing Armenia (excluding it) but including northern Iraq and the Azerbaijan Gharbi (west Azerbaijan province and other nearby regions of northwest Iran) as an area of probable 10-13% haplogroup T

adamo
15-04-13, 01:12
Also I read that haplogroup T may have originated near the Persian gulf or the Red Sea. This would put the origin point significantly closer to Jordan's 20% hg T. But again this is just a personal theory

zanipolo
24-04-13, 23:49
Also I read that haplogroup T may have originated near the Persian gulf or the Red Sea. This would put the origin point significantly closer to Jordan's 20% hg T. But again this is just a personal theory

Your L299+ in the russian site, semagyl is mostly comprised of only kurds, assyrians and armenians.
Considering that cilicia ( on the med. coast, border of modern day turkey and syria ) was armenian for many centuries, there is one more consideration of your line from the northern Levant area to Italy via the link on the Phoenician traders ( which I have previously linked) .

adamo
25-04-13, 00:37
Where is semagyl though I can't find it off a map, and where did you read that it would be amazing if I could read that myself! : )

zanipolo
25-04-13, 00:45
Where is semagyl though I can't find it off a map, and where did you read that it would be amazing if I could read that myself! : )

for dna matches and maps etc
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/

post 12 for phoenicians article

and I have more

adamo
25-04-13, 01:00
I still don't know where to find it lol...and what else do you haz?? : ) can't find what section of the website that is its all RussianRussian

adamo
25-04-13, 03:48
I'm L299 but its written for me that I'm PF7443 as a snp I think

adamo
25-04-13, 06:00
I'm going to upload my haplogroup T L299 map soon I just need to figure out how to do it as someone has uploaded a J2b frequencies map I don't know how

zanipolo
25-04-13, 06:07
I'm going to upload my haplogroup T L299 map soon I just need to figure out how to do it as someone has uploaded a J2b frequencies map I don't know how

use imageshack, its free, u only need to register

adamo
25-04-13, 06:47
I'll get some help and figure it out soon I will post a map of T soon, I just need to get my hands on a computer and not this iPad lol I'm not too good with computers : )

Yaan
26-04-13, 20:10
Haplogorups have absolutely nothing to do with looks and please never write such crazy stuff here again. I am J2a4h and look like a mix of South and Eastern European, my brother is also J2a4h and looks like a mix between Eastern and Central European. I look like the Mom of my Dad(also like my Dad,but the look comes from her) and my brother looks like the Mom of Mom,so both of us look like persons in our family which do not even have y haplogorups. We look like all people in our line, including the women and the men which gene we do not carry,so linking haplogorups to looks is crazy. In 23andme the lighest Bulgarians are E-V13,R1a and J2, the darkest G2a and I2a, this of course means nothing. But lets not speak about looks here. Cheers :)

zanipolo
26-04-13, 20:26
Haplogorups have absolutely nothing to do with looks and please never write such crazy stuff here again. I am J2a4h and look like a mix of South and Eastern European, my brother is also J2a4h and looks like a mix between Eastern and Central European. I look like the Mom of my Dad(also like my Dad,but the look comes from her) and my brother looks like the Mom of Mom,so both of us look like persons in our family which do not even have y haplogorups. We look like all people in our line, including the women and the men which gene we do not carry,so linking haplogorups to looks is crazy. In 23andme the lighest Bulgarians are E-V13,R1a and J2, the darkest G2a and I2a, this of course means nothing. But lets not speak about looks here. Cheers :)

which post are you referencing this comment on?
or do you have the wrong thread

Yaan
26-04-13, 20:34
I meant the guy T, from Italy Adamo I think was his name, linking black hair and olive skin to haplogorups I would search for the post and also I am saying to him so he knows it has nothing to do, not in a bad way :)

Yaan
26-04-13, 20:35
Here is what he wrote :
I'm one of those Italians that has jet black hair and olive skin so naturally I always suspected I had some form of Assyrian or Mesopotamian influence in my blood. I was surprised that I don't harbour the J-M172 lineage (haplogroup j2) as this is the typical northern middle-eastern Fertile Crescent haplogroup,( it is also found in 20-25% of italian men.) instead, belonging to hg T this is MUCH rarer ( 4% of Italians).

zanipolo
26-04-13, 21:56
I meant the guy T, from Italy Adamo I think was his name, linking black hair and olive skin to haplogorups I would search for the post and also I am saying to him so he knows it has nothing to do, not in a bad way :)

i agree that hair and eye colour has nothing to do with haplogroups. my paternal line which is T has a majority of green, grey or blue eyes, some blond and some black, but majority light brown hair.

The only thing that could make some sense on hair colour is , the further east one goes the more black hair dominates.

adamo
26-04-13, 22:49
That's correct to a certain degree because one can inherit from either or both family sides loll

adamo
28-04-13, 13:39
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/832/imageqxwu.jpg/ Link to global prevalence map of haplogroup T, can someone downloaded it and post it on the site please cant do with iPad lol.

Yaan
28-04-13, 13:47
C (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/832/imageqxwu.jpg/?sa=0)an u see it ? 5864

adamo
28-04-13, 13:52
Yes! Thank you yaan! : ) these are the only zones on the genographic project 2.0 map that have hg T. It's all yellow zones, or about 10% maybe 15%. It seems it arrived from Africa to northern Saudi Arabia, where one branch split to south-central Iraq and the other to Egypt. The Egypt branch later brought T to the Horn of Africa. On this map, from what I can see, are covered most of Egypt, south/central Iraq, stretches of northern Saudi Arabia and all of Jordan.

Yaan
28-04-13, 13:56
Sure :) But there is two kinds right?
One is big in Somalia and Ethiopia and Arabs and the other kind(u) is 1-4 % in South Europe and parts of Middle East,Jews ,Switzerland and Austria right?

adamo
28-04-13, 13:59
We would have to consult Zanipolo for more information on this, he knows more than I do on this haplogroup, but yes there is T1 and T2, T2 is the African variety I believe, T1 is found in Middle East parts of Europe, all of this at low frequencies of course. Hopefully he will log on soon and takeaway look at the map : ) from my own personal speculations though I see a link between T and wandering north Arabian Bedouin people's such as the Quraish tribe in which many men are hg T, in the Hejaz regions of western Red Sea Arabia. Many Jordanians are hg T and they are a Hashemite kingdom as many wandering Arabs where in those areas also and Hashemites are linked to Mecca and the prophet Muhammad.

zanipolo
01-05-13, 20:44
We would have to consult Zanipolo for more information on this, he knows more than I do on this haplogroup, but yes there is T1 and T2, T2 is the African variety I believe, T1 is found in Middle East parts of Europe, all of this at low frequencies of course. Hopefully he will log on soon and takeaway look at the map : ) from my own personal speculations though I see a link between T and wandering north Arabian Bedouin people's such as the Quraish tribe in which many men are hg T, in the Hejaz regions of western Red Sea Arabia. Many Jordanians are hg T and they are a Hashemite kingdom as many wandering Arabs where in those areas also and Hashemites are linked to Mecca and the prophet Muhammad.

I gave you the link on post #9

There is no African variety , the T marker is west-asian ( Russian claim it to be central asian ), basically Iran ( Persia)

what is T1 and T2?

pre 2008 T was known k2
then it became T1 , T2 and T3 ..........T1 ended up being a private line and disused, T2 became T1a and T3 became T1b.

Now from last year, T1a became T1a1 and T1b became T1a2
and T1a3 was introduced a Kuwait Saudi arabian line ...a line said to be the Thomas Jefferson line

zanipolo
01-05-13, 20:47
@adamo

whats this one-eyed focus on being Jordanian because they have a higher percentage?

T is a very old marker and would have been more likely a hunter-gatherer marker along with G and others.

adamo
01-05-13, 20:55
I don't know lol genographic project told me 20% of Jordanians. Didn't say anything about Persia, and the map as you saw has no T in Iran. So if I'm T1a1 that means I'm T1a? It says I'm M70 then next I'm L299 mutation. (T1a1). What does all that mean? And I'm T-PF7443 whatever that is, where is that found or originate from? That subclade

zanipolo
01-05-13, 23:01
I don't know lol genographic project told me 20% of Jordanians. Didn't say anything about Persia, and the map as you saw has no T in Iran. So if I'm T1a1 that means I'm T1a? It says I'm M70 then next I'm L299 mutation. (T1a1). What does all that mean? And I'm T-PF7443 whatever that is, where is that found or originate from? That subclade

The base for T is M184, out of this is M70
PF7443 ?.....is this correct or is it PF7463

Where did you get this map?

northern iranian 2012 percentages of Ydna
Eb1b1b1a1a (9.5%)
E1b1b1c (1.6%)
G2a* (1.6%)
G2a* (3.2%)
G2a3b2 (1.6%)
G2c (1.6%)
J1c3 ( 4.8%)
J2a* (4.8%)
J2a3 (4.8%)
J2a3a (4.8%)
J2a3b (3.2%)
J2a3h (3.2%)
L* (1.6%)
L1 (1.6%)
L3 (1.6%)
N (1.6%)
Q1a2 (1.6%)
Q1a3% (1.6%)
Q1b1 (1.6%)
R1a1a (19.0%)
R1b (3.2%)
R1b1a2* (1.6%)
R1b1a2a* (12.7%)
T (7.9%)


from Grugni

adamo
01-05-13, 23:28
No it is M184 then M70 then I'm L299. ( T1a1) I'm very well T-PF7443 and NOT T-PF7463. The map I posted above on this thread is my genographic 2.0 haplogroup T map.

zanipolo
01-05-13, 23:31
No it is M184 then M70 then I'm L299. ( T1a1) I'm very well T-PF7443 and NOT T-PF7463. The map I posted above on this thread is my genographic 2.0 haplogroup T map.

is this genographic 2.0 a company ? because I have never seen this type of map in FTDNA, 23andme and Nat geno

PF7443 does not exist in ISOGG which has all markers up to date
the closest markers for T from NAt geno complete SNP testing for T is:
PF7460, PF7463, PF7464, PF7465, PF7466, PF7480


and last update is
Added PF5547, PF5596, PF5597, PF5618, PF5621, PF5626, PF5629, PF5631, PF5636, PF5637, PF5641, PF5646, PF5651, PF5655, PF7447, PF7471, PF7472 on 11 February 2013,

adamo
01-05-13, 23:36
The national geographics genographic project 2.0 I had my DNA analyzed and this is the frequency map they gave me for my hg T. Seems to be spread at 10% across much of Egypt, northern Saudi Arabia, Jordan and south-central Iraq if you ask me.

adamo
01-05-13, 23:39
M70 defines T1. It is suggested the older hg T was overwhelmed across the Middle East by incoming E, J and G males. So what doesit mean if I'm PF7443? I'm the only one in the project with this SNP. Hg t seems to be rampant across Saudi Arabia with the Quraish tribes of Mohammad in the Najd/Hejaz regions of north-west/central Arabia in particular having much.

zanipolo
02-05-13, 01:23
The national geographics genographic project 2.0 I had my DNA analyzed and this is the frequency map they gave me for my hg T. Seems to be spread at 10% across much of Egypt, northern Saudi Arabia, Jordan and south-central Iraq if you ask me.

Did they designate you as Greek for #1 ?, because Nat Geno use DNATribes and there is no south Italian, south Italian is under the term Greek ( from naples to silcily)

I am also surprised they gave you only a H for mtDna as their policy is to give you a subclade as they detect all your maternal SNPs

I can put you in contact with a T project guy who specialises in T in mesopatamia / arabian areas. He is with 23andme but is also active in FTDNA. He actually looked at mine in detail and lumped me in a project called Atlantic-T .

Let me know and I will give you his email address , he will ask you to register with 23andme ( no fee) to discuss in their forums just the T for middle east, he will also present you with a migrational area/zones of your line

adamo
02-05-13, 02:33
I would be honoured to have his email, thanks zanipolo you are a god! : ) yes they only designated me as "H" for some reason, and my admixture of haplogroups was clustered as "Georgian" for some reason...

zanipolo
02-05-13, 03:46
I would be honoured to have his email, thanks zanipolo you are a god! : ) yes they only designated me as "H" for some reason, and my admixture of haplogroups was clustered as "Georgian" for some reason...

email address sent to you privately.

hmm Georgian...not Bulkar or Azeri

adamo
02-05-13, 04:20
The assignment of regional affiliation is less precise I suppose, but with y-DNA T and mtdna H I was apparently classified nearest to Georgians...lol

Hashimi
10-05-13, 03:00
So I guess even though haplogroup T is found in maybe 10-13% of Assyrians, 10% of Druze people, 8% of Armenians, OVERALL it is found abundantly in a large number of these men from West Asia. This is in a sense the global maximum. It seems less to be found in entire populations and more to be found in certain isolated Middle East communities. Where the haplogroup T men overwhelmed or destroyed by haplogroup J1-J2 men and other more common Middle East lineages? Where their levels ALWAYS this low even in the " highest frequencies" of the Middle East? What about Jordan with its massive 21% of T, why all the T in this isolated pocket? Could this be the radiation point, the home of T? I know that T got to the Horn of Africa (Ethiopia and Somalia) from Egypt (and then subsequently to Fulbe of Cameroon from Horn of Africa) and it got to high percentage but small isolated pockets of India from the Iranian peninsula but can Jordan be the home of all T? I believe so but this is conflicting because the sister haplogroup of T , haplogroup L only significantly overlaps with T ( even if at, again, low percentages) in Iran thus symbolizing this may be the origin point of T , In Iran, a little more far out from the central Fertile Crescent (Iraq). This is evident if I look at maps of both haplogroup T and L, they overlaps in Iran, albeit, even if at unsatisfiyingly low percentages

Could T group be the result of the Umayyad Empire family. It spread from Iran to Spain (which match the t haplogroup map) and when it was taken over by the Abbasid one they were chased and executed massively. That could explain the spread and the low population. I also think so because many of the Arab families whos known from that family are T1 haplogroup.

adamo
10-05-13, 21:23
I keep looking and re-looking at my T results on genographic project; the three action ally highest frequencies of T are Jordan (15-20%) Egypt (10-20%) Somalia ( 15-20%, a middle eastern backdraft arriving in Africa via Egypt) and Iraq with accounts varying from 7-15%. There are many T's though across Saudi Arabia, Oman, the Middle East in general and even in Europe , all at much lo wer frequencies, the % getting lower as we move away from Arabia/ Fertile Crescent, although there are bizarre higher pockets across Europe, such as Chios island, campania Italy, 10% across parts of central Italy or weird minuscule 20% zones in Austria/Bavaria, 20% on south-western Sicily, a few 5-8% hotspots on Iberian peninsula etc. but Jordan,Egypt, Iraq,Somalia, highest national levels probably; to me it originated in Jordan by the Red Sea, where it was linked to ancient Phoenicians.

MOESAN
19-05-13, 14:30
I keep looking and re-looking at my T results on genographic project; the three action ally highest frequencies of T are Jordan (15-20%) Egypt (10-20%) Somalia ( 15-20%, a middle eastern backdraft arriving in Africa via Egypt) and Iraq with accounts varying from 7-15%. There are many T's though across Saudi Arabia, Oman, the Middle East in general and even in Europe , all at much lo wer frequencies, the % getting lower as we move away from Arabia/ Fertile Crescent, although there are bizarre higher pockets across Europe, such as Chios island, campania Italy, 10% across parts of central Italy or weird minuscule 20% zones in Austria/Bavaria, 20% on south-western Sicily, a few 5-8% hotspots on Iberian peninsula etc. but Jordan,Egypt, Iraq,Somalia, highest national levels probably; to me it originated in Jordan by the Red Sea, where it was linked to ancient Phoenicians.

I 'm very amazed when looking at the Y-T distribution (it seems effectively we are speaking about Y DNA and not mt DNA):
some hotpots very far one from another very often near to sea shores, except in some points - the spread suggests founder effects of maritime populations - in Europe, Jews could be important in the inland spreading -Phoenicians could be ONE of the spreaders, but the total distribution don't allow me to tell ALL Y-T were linked to Phoenicia - Switzerland is a problem, because it knew cardial and post-cardial arrivals by Rhône river from Provence and Mediterranea, and TOO surely some heavy persence of Jews so, a more precise SNPs based analysis is needed -

adamo
19-05-13, 14:59
I don't think hg-T is linked to Jews, the only high frequency is found in Tras O Montes Portuguese Jews (15%). Maximum frequencies: Jordan (20%) Egypt (16%) Iraq (13%) near Anatolia (10-13% Assyrian populations) Horn of Africa (Somalia 13%) Oman (10%) also in Kurdish Jews (20%) Iraqi Jews (18%) Iranian Jews (14%) (some Jewish diasporas have it) island of Chios off turkey (20%) Samsun (Turkish village) 20% Sicily (5-17%) small pocket of southern Bavaria (20%) small spots across south-central Italy can have up to 10%, Balearics islands off Iberian coast (15%); really weirdly distributed haplogroup, my genographic results are my reference for all this by the way, T may have originated, in my opinion, either on the iranian plateau, Jordan right by the Red Sea near Egypt, or maybe even near northern Saudi Arabia.

adamo
21-05-13, 13:23
To me personally, haplogroup T is linked to the Phoenicians, as it is found in southwestern Sicily, Ibiza, Corsica, the Egyptian coast; all areas where Phoenician maritime expansion took place. The ancestors of Phoenicians where the Canaanites. The Persians account is that the Phoenicians originally came from the erythrean sea (modern Persian gulf, eastern Arabia.) near Bahrain or east-central Arabia southern Iraq southwestern Iran region (Persian gulf). The Greeks for example, spoke of two islands Tylos and Aradus (modern day Bahrain) which boasted they where the motherland of the semitic Phoenicians and held ancient relics of Phoenician/Canaanite temples. The Phoenicians of Tyre in particular had long maintained their ancient Persian gulf origins. They moved from the Persian gulf region towards the Levantine coast near modern day Lebanon/Jordan.

zanipolo
22-05-13, 08:03
I 'm very amazed when looking at the Y-T distribution (it seems effectively we are speaking about Y DNA and not mt DNA):
some hotpots very far one from another very often near to sea shores, except in some points - the spread suggests founder effects of maritime populations - in Europe, Jews could be important in the inland spreading -Phoenicians could be ONE of the spreaders, but the total distribution don't allow me to tell ALL Y-T were linked to Phoenicia - Switzerland is a problem, because it knew cardial and post-cardial arrivals by Rhône river from Provence and Mediterranea, and TOO surely some heavy persence of Jews so, a more precise SNPs based analysis is needed -


Originally T came from K2 which came from K. K came from south Asia, of which the oldest K9 went to south-east Asia and Australia. From south-asia K2-M184 went and settled Iran and parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan. M70 a branch of M184 was created (as per these scientists) in the Pamir Knot area, from there the M70 branched out north of the Caspian sea, and south of the Caspian sea. This southern branch arrived in Kurdish/Assyrian areas...from there it went to Europe.
The northern branch went to estonia ( some say cimmeranians had some T ) then gotland, sweden, norway and the faroe and orkney islands. ( there is a paper on this )

The funny thing is that the Greeks say the Dorians came from Pamir in the Himalayas , they migrated along the south Anatolian coast and settled in Samos, Chios, Rhodes, Crete, south Peloponnese and Corfu.......they all hold T ydna haplogroup. The came about 1200BC ( bronze-age migrations )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamir_Mountains

adamo
22-05-13, 18:43
Zanipolo you deserve a medal for that post, awesome.

adamo
22-05-13, 19:07
So T originated in the Afghanistan/Tajikistan region?

adamo
22-05-13, 20:36
So shouldn't more tests be done on Tajiks, afghans, Iranians, Pakistanis? If this is where T first came from, is there any data on these regions or is data especially scarce over there.

adamo
22-05-13, 20:58
According to my genographic project, hg T is linked to emirian and kebaran culture of the levant (Syria,Palestine,Lebanon) area during the upper/middle Paleolithic.

adamo
23-05-13, 01:07
Does anyone have info on T1a1 (L299) also known as T-M320 in particular? It's downstream from M70 (T1) and T1a.

zanipolo
24-05-13, 09:50
So T originated in the Afghanistan/Tajikistan region?

Tajiks are persian and not afghan people, basically NE persian

adamo
24-05-13, 13:36
So Tajiks and Persians but not afghans?

adamo
24-05-13, 15:23
This is my genographic description for M70: age of haplogroup, mutation took place: 33,750-19,250 years ago.This step of your paternal ancestors journey took place in the fertile climate of west Asia during the upper Paleolithic. Early members of this lineage where hunter gatherers who took part in Emirian culture and other advances in weapons technology. From west Asia, this lineage spread to north Africa, South Asia, and Europe. Today, it is a significant part of the male lineages of west Asia. It is around 21% of male lineages in Jordan. It and several of its subtypes are present in Jewish diaspora groups such as Iraqi Jews and Kurdish Jews. In North Africa, it is 6 to 7% of male Egyptian lineages and about 7% of the male Ethiopian population. In South Asia, it is 53% of the isolated Bauris Indian male lineages and 7 to 11 % of Gond indian male lineages. In Europe, this branch contributes to between 5 and 17% of Sicilian male lineages. It is about 5% of male lineages on mainland Italy. It varies between 3 and 24% of male lineages across different regions of Germany. (Then there are photos associated with M70) they say: (photo #1): Some 20% of all Jordanian men are members of the M70 lineage which arose in West Asia during the fertile Upper Paleolithic and remains common here. (Photo#2): Many groups of the Jewish diaspora, including Iraqi Jews and Kurdish Jews, such as this man, share the M70 lineage. (Photo#3): This Iraqi man may be part of the M70 lineage which rose among hunter gatherers in the fertile climes of west Asia. From there, other branches spread to South Asia, North Africa and Europe. (Photo#4): This Baghdad girl lives in an ancient cradle of civilizations. The fertile lands of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers spawned early agriculture and legendary cities like Babylon. (Photo#5): Boys from Kashan, Iran live in an ancient centre of human civilization. The nearby site of Tepe Sialk includes evidence of human settlement 8,000 years ago.

adamo
24-05-13, 15:34
Then there is another description for my L299 subclade: age: 26,500-14,500 years ago: This man and his earliest descendants lived in western Asia during the time of Kebaran culture. The wide-traveling hunter-gatherers of west Asia were some of the earliest groups to use and collect cereal grains. The fertile land of the Levant and increasing utilization of grains set the stage for the Neolithic revolution. Though the Neolithic revolution did not push this lineage to dominance as it did others, the new agriculture-based settlements did help it expand across west Asia, and into North Africa, Anatolia, and Southern Europe. Today, the highest frequencies of the lineage are in Jordan (16%) Egypt (16%) Somalia (14%) and Iraq (13%). It is present throughout West Asia, and is about 8% of the Druze male population. Toward Anatolia, it is between 10 and 13% of male Assyrian populations. It is present in England and the Netherlands at trace frequencies of less than 1%. It and its descendant branches are present in Jewish diaspora populations. That's my L299 description, is it just re-stating M70, or describing L299 in particular, I do not know, although this was written as information of specifically L299, the T1a1 subclade of M70 (T1).

adamo
24-05-13, 15:37
And I also posted the heatmap a while ago showing Egypt, north Saudi Arabia Jordan and parts of Iraq highlighted in 10% yellow areas (10-15% of males in those regions are T).my theory is that they haven't done enough tests on central Asians ( afghans, Tajiks, n-e Iranians) to find the real "power core" of T, its probably in Afghanistan or some war-torn/risky area of Tajikistan, that's probably the home of T.

adamo
25-05-13, 14:43
If hg T is in fact linked to emirian and later kebaran culture as my geno 2.0 results tell me, then they are linked to a culture that is named after Kebara cave (northern Israel) and that encompasses parts of the Sinai peninsula , Syria,Jordan, Lebanon and Palestine near the Red Sea.

adamo
25-05-13, 17:50
From what I understand T came from K that came from F. F originated somewhere in southern Iraq, one branch migrated to north-central Iran (where K originated.) then K migrated to Afghanistan. That is where T originated. Then one branch went through India to Southeast Asia and into Australia, another went above the Caspian Sea to Russia and Estonia and another branch went under the Caspian Sea from Afghanistan to Iran to Iraq Syria and the levant right by the Red Sea and Mediterranean ( near Jordan/Egypt).

zanipolo
25-05-13, 21:08
From what I understand T came from K that came from F. F originated somewhere in southern Iraq, one branch migrated to north-central Iran (where K originated.) then K migrated to Afghanistan. That is where T originated. Then one branch went through India to Southeast Asia and into Australia, another went above the Caspian Sea to Russia and Estonia and another branch went under the Caspian Sea from Afghanistan to Iran to Iraq Syria and the levant right by the Red Sea and Mediterranean ( near Jordan/Egypt).

sounds good

On wiki link T-M184 ,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184
the tested people in regards to where they are from, seems to be too old. I have 9 x 3 to 7 step matches with T people from the British isles, I have 4 people with step matches of 4 to 9 with Germans and poles and I have 3 people with step matches of 2 to 7 in Nordic and Finn lands.............all are missing.
I also have 2 matches in central Italy, 4 matches in western Austria and Swiss lands, 3 matches in the lowlands, the USA matches I do not count but assume they are Irish or welsh migration of early settlement to the new world.
These T people do appear on the semargl site
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/

even stranger is that I have no South American matches......clearly a lack of iberian markers
(http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/)

zanipolo
26-05-13, 00:59
So Tajiks and Persians but not afghans?

yes tajiks are persian/modern iranian and not afghans

Most of Tajikistan's population belongs to the Persian-speaking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language) Tajik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tajik_people) ethnic group, who share language, culture and history with Afghanistan and Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran). Once part of the Samanid Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samanid_dynasty), Tajikistan became a constituent republic of the Soviet Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union) in the 20th century, known as the Tajik Soviet Socialist Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tajik_Soviet_Socialist_Republic) (Tajik SSR). Mountains cover over 90% of this Central Asian republic.

Russian geneolists are trying to make T a central-asian group and not a west-Asian group...this has been talked about since 2009.

adamo
26-05-13, 03:14
Well it's still present in west Asian populations such as Jordanians, but it does in fact seem to originate near Afghanistan/Tajikistan...you are T1a2b, that has an "Atlantic ocean" distribution? Tell me about that, I don't get it, and how could I know better what my subgroup (L299/T1a1) is from? The guy with the email you gave me never answered back lol

Alan
26-05-13, 04:46
hi
i know my paternal linage back to 1730 from city of shiraz from a lore tribe called zand and i found i have Y HG T.
i wonder which ancient peoplein iran or mesoptamie had this kind of Y HG before arrival of aryans with R1a y hg ?
regards


Please be more precise. The Zand is a Laki Kurdish (small Lor) tribe. You are mixing them up with the Bakhtiyaris (Big Lors).

zanipolo
26-05-13, 05:11
Well it's still present in west Asian populations such as Jordanians, but it does in fact seem to originate near Afghanistan/Tajikistan...you are T1a2b, that has an "Atlantic ocean" distribution? Tell me about that, I don't get it, and how could I know better what my subgroup (L299/T1a1) is from? The guy with the email you gave me never answered back lol

the guy...hmm......its been 36 days since he has been on 23andme site. I will see what I can find out for you.

my T1a2b is the northern migrational route people that the project and genealogist state for me. remember that the north of the danube river in the balkans is classified northern, the alps are northern and then from rhone river west side to the atlantic is northern. Unsure on iberia though.
Whats to tell..
PF places me on the french-italian border
BGA places me on the austrian-italian border
ISOGG states me as eastern alps
Doug , says ancient northern yugoslavia area ( i guess illyrian)
T project still undecided , but northern european
ALPGEN project state me as Venetic-adriatic
DNAtribes states me as east austrian but beginning in north caucasus on the black sea.
eurogenes guy - on the swiss-italian-austrian border

I used to believe in admixture results , but they are only partly correct, the chromosome results as per some from above seem better

adamo
26-05-13, 05:15
Did your T go north of Caspian Sea to north Europe or south through Middle East,

adamo
26-05-13, 05:18
Alright I appreciate it : )

zanipolo
26-05-13, 05:40
Did your T go north of Caspian Sea to north Europe or south through Middle East,

I was told, north of caspian and then along the danube river ............but are they sure

adamo
26-05-13, 15:10
Considering that Rene is a Feyli Kurd ( Kurds that live between extreme eastern Iraq and extreme western Iran) maybe this group of 6 million Feyli Kurds are high in the T marker. They live in Baghdad, iraq's diyala province, Khanaqin and mandali, and across the border in Iran manly in Luristan, kermanshah and Ilam provinces. Some believe they are integral to the Kurdish populatin of Iraq, others say they are much more similar to iranian people's such as Lurs. They seem to inhabit the area on the Wikipedia T map that has 9-13% T. The Zand where Feyli Kurds and they had anciently set up in Shiraz.

adamo
26-05-13, 15:17
Ancient Shiraz is intimately linked to the ancient Elamites, and it is was the capital of both the Zand dynasty and all of Persia for a brief time.....where hg T possibly Persian/iranian elites?

Alan
26-05-13, 15:22
Ancient Shiraz is intimately linked to the ancient Elamites, and it is was the capital of both the Zand dynasty and all of Persia for a brief time.....where hg T possibly Persian/iranian elites?

No one denied that ancient Elamite homeland is in the province of Fars but the Elamites stretched also in Southeastern ends of Kurdistan into the province of Ilam, where Laki speaking Kurds reside and which was former known as Lakestan. It is well documented that Kurdish tribes lived all the way into the Pars province. Most of them being nomadic Lors. And there are still Kurds in Shiraz.

The Zand Dynasty was actually of Laki (small Lors) Kurdish origin.


Die Zand-Dynastie war ein iranisches[1] Herrscherhaus, das 1750–1794 in Persien regierte und aus dem kurdischen Stamm der Lak hervorging.[2]
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zand-Dynastie

Use google Translater.


I also knew a Kurd from Ilam province who is also yDNA T funnily enough he looks very Bud Spencer like.

Alan
26-05-13, 15:34
Considering that Rene is a Feyli Kurd ( Kurds that live between extreme eastern Iraq and extreme western Iran) maybe this group of 6 million Feyli Kurds are high in the T marker. They live in Baghdad, iraq's diyala province, Khanaqin and mandali, and across the border in Iran manly in Luristan, kermanshah and Ilam provinces. Some believe they are integral to the Kurdish populatin of Iraq, others say they are much more similar to iranian people's such as Lurs. They seem to inhabit the area on the Wikipedia T map that has 9-13% T. The Zand where Feyli Kurds and they had anciently set up in Shiraz.

Well if Rene is a Feyli (Lak) Kurd than he should mentioned that. Since he is a Feyli from Sweden now I am sure he is the person I am talking about :laughing: He looks kinda Bud Spencer.


I don't know if he remembers me.


Well I know a few Feylis and most of the are a blend of R1b, R1a and some J1* + T.


Look you seem to mix things up. "Iranian people" is a general term collecting all Iranian speaking ethnicities and is not only bound to the boundaries of modern state Iran. Ossetians, Tajiks and Pashtuns are also Iranians by wider sense.

The Lors just a century ago where all considered as major Kurdish tribe. And it is well documented in Iranian and as well Kurdish source of the first century to 16 century AD. In the Serefname written in 16 century Sherefhan el Betlisi mentions the Lors as a major tribe of the Kurds.


throughout the centuries there was a "brotherwar" between the two Lor groups (big and small Lors). The small Lors preserved there original language which is in fact part of the Northwest Irannian group and clustered under Kurdish dialects.

The Kurdish language has two main groups of the Northwestern branch one bigger the Kurdish proper and a secondary smaller Goran-Dimli group.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Iranian_Family_Tree_v2.0.png/575px-Iranian_Family_Tree_v2.0.png

There under the larger Kurdish proper bough you will see Laki.

unfortunately the big Lors through geographic proximity to Persian speakers where influenced by them and through time started slightly turning more and more into the Southwestern linguistic direction. Today they are classified linguistically into the Southwestern branch but distinct to both Persian and Kurdish.
Though their traditions and clothings are undeniably still Kurdish. They have the typical Kurdish circle dances on weddings while Persians/Iranians do not know this.

the Laks are even more clear, they speak, cloth and dance Kurdish.

Of course it is in the interests of the Iranian regime to convince them the opposite though its clear as water what they are.

adamo
26-05-13, 15:40
I don't look very bud spencer. Lol

adamo
26-05-13, 15:43
Haplogroup T seems to have a "high" in the ancient Elamite region of southwestern Iran. ( on maps anyways) and this is also not too far from where our shirazi friend originates.

Alan
26-05-13, 15:52
I don't look very bud spencer. Lol


I meant him "Rene" not you :laughing:

adamo
26-05-13, 16:17
I know but I'm in hg T also so I thought you where talking about us T's.

adamo
26-05-13, 22:51
I think hg T is linked especially to bakhtiaris from bakhtiaris province near ilam, the southwestern corner of Iran touching extreme southeastern Iraq. They speak a Lurish language. They live in parts of Lorestan, khuzestan and Isfahan provinces. They are descendants of "Fereydun" a national iranian hero in ancient Persian religion/mythology such as Zoroastrianism.

zanipolo
27-05-13, 11:23
I don't look very bud spencer. Lol

Bud Spencer (born Carlo Pedersoli; 31 October 1929) is an Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) actor
Spencer was born in Santa Lucia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borgo_Santa_Lucia), a historical rione (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rione) of the city of Naples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naples)

Terence Hill (born Mario Girotti; 29 March 1939) is an Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) actor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor).
Hill was born in Venice, Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venice,_Italy).

an unlikely pair who made a nmae for themselves

Yetos
27-05-13, 16:10
Bud Spencer (born Carlo Pedersoli; 31 October 1929) is an Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) actor
Spencer was born in Santa Lucia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borgo_Santa_Lucia), a historical rione (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rione) of the city of Naples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naples)

Terence Hill (born Mario Girotti; 29 March 1939) is an Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) actor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor).
Hill was born in Venice, Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venice,_Italy).

an unlikely pair who made a nmae for themselves

yeah I remember the 2 most famous Italian duet.

Ciccio and Franco

Buldozer and trinita, bud spencer terence hill.

adamo
27-05-13, 16:30
Amazing : )

adamo
01-06-13, 23:05
I recently found out I'm P77, a sub-group of T that runs high in Kurdish, Iraqi, iranian and Yemenite Jews. It is speculated that T1a1 either originated In Canaan and then with the Jewish exile to Assyrian/Babylonian lands was absorbed by other mesopotamians or maybe it originated among the Jews when they had already arrived in Mesopotamia and it originated there, either way P77 seems to be high in Iraqi Jews, Kurdish Jews and Jordanians. What do you guys think?

adamo
01-06-13, 23:37
Did P77 originate in Canaan or in north Mesopotamia?

Eldritch
01-06-13, 23:56
Where are your closest matches found Adamo?

adamo
02-06-13, 00:12
I don't know.

zanipolo
02-06-13, 01:35
I don't know.

?

who did you test with?

I have tested with Ftdna of which I have 26 matches between step 2 and step 4
13 from british isles
4 from germany
4 from italy
3 from baltic area (pomeranian, estonia, lithuania)
1 slovenian
1 norwegian

I presume this testing place also did your mtDna


If you went with 23andme, they are just as good

Natgeno....err......well they find a lot of SNPs

genomes ....unsure but I think you can transfer to ftdna

adamo
02-06-13, 01:48
Yeah but I have to pay ftdna thing, I would love to know with who P77+ or L299+ is clustered with, European or Assyrian samples, I wonder.

zanipolo
02-06-13, 04:52
Yeah but I have to pay ftdna thing, I would love to know with who P77+ or L299+ is clustered with, European or Assyrian samples, I wonder.

what ever search engine you use, you need to read up on advanced searching. you need to find a way, only you know your line.

I found these in a few minutes - all L299+

-ftdna 231809 surname = philipps from devon, cornwall, England
-ftdna 97565 from wales
-ftdna 244570 from ghana ( portuguese descent)
-ftdna 156487 surname = metaxopoulos greece

E8011 from Cantabria spain
E5174 surname Al-khalifa from Saudi Arabia
and one other , a high priest from the Quaraish tribe - I do not know where that is

Semaghl (russian site) has 2 only, both in mexico from Spanish hereditary

adamo
02-06-13, 05:16
Yeah difficult to find extensive information on my subclade....

adamo
02-06-13, 05:21
The haplotypes of the 35 individuals belonging to Haplogroup T are provided in Supplementary Table 4. The distribution of haplotypes within Haplogroup T-M184 illustrated in an MJ network (Supplementary Figure 4) depicts a positioning of clusters composed almost entirely of Levantine individuals in the center of the diagram, with all other groups emanating from this area. This potentially points toward an origin of these haplotypes in the Levant, a supposition that is further supported by the observation of high genetic diversity in the network among levantine individuals within haplogroup T-M184 in the Levant. Time estimates for T-M184 individuals (Supplementary Table 5) corroborate the supposition that the lineage originated in the Levant and entered the Armenian Plateau at a later time, as the dates generated from Levantine (6.2±1.8 kya using Ravid-Amir and Rosset34) and Iranian (5.9±1.3 kya) individuals are older than those yielded from Turkey (5.7±1.2 kya), Sasun (5.0±1.2 kya) and the remaining three Armenian populations (average 3.9±1.0 kya). According to this study, T has highest age and diversity in the levant.

zanipolo
11-06-13, 04:32
The haplotypes of the 35 individuals belonging to Haplogroup T are provided in Supplementary Table 4. The distribution of haplotypes within Haplogroup T-M184 illustrated in an MJ network (Supplementary Figure 4) depicts a positioning of clusters composed almost entirely of Levantine individuals in the center of the diagram, with all other groups emanating from this area. This potentially points toward an origin of these haplotypes in the Levant, a supposition that is further supported by the observation of high genetic diversity in the network among levantine individuals within haplogroup T-M184 in the Levant. Time estimates for T-M184 individuals (Supplementary Table 5) corroborate the supposition that the lineage originated in the Levant and entered the Armenian Plateau at a later time, as the dates generated from Levantine (6.2±1.8 kya using Ravid-Amir and Rosset34) and Iranian (5.9±1.3 kya) individuals are older than those yielded from Turkey (5.7±1.2 kya), Sasun (5.0±1.2 kya) and the remaining three Armenian populations (average 3.9±1.0 kya). According to this study, T has highest age and diversity in the levant.

from the Assyrian project

N=107 06/10/13
24.3% R1b
18.7% J1
15.9% T
13.1% J2
8.4% E1b1b1
8.4% G
4.7% R2a
2.8% Q1b
1.9% R1a
0.9% F
0.9% L

as of today.

Checking on Cappodocian line as well for you.

basically this is northern Levant, aleppo area, start of the ancient silk road to China

adamo
11-06-13, 05:09
Woah! 16% hg T? Assyrian project, where is this???

zanipolo
11-06-13, 05:52
Woah! 16% hg T? Assyrian project, where is this???

talk to one of the guys in the email

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject/default.aspx

only 1 x T1a2b
1 x the new T1a3

all the rest are your type

adamo
11-06-13, 07:13
I know I'm T1a1, don't know if T1a1a or T1a1b or if in an Assyrian cluster or not.

zanipolo
11-06-13, 08:45
I know I'm T1a1, don't know if T1a1a or T1a1b or if in an Assyrian cluster or not.

write your numbers ( DYS ) down and I see what I can do

the site does split into different groupings

adamo
11-06-13, 09:09
What's a dys, all I know Is I'm T-PF7443. For anyone who's interested btw, here's the genetic composition of L'aquila, btw how do I figure out what my DYS is?



Haplogroup composition of L'Aquila:


21% T
14% G2a
14% R1b1a2a1a2
10% L
10% E-V13
10% J2a
7% R1b1a2
3.5% I2b1
3.5% J1e
3.5% R1a
3.5% R1b1a2a1a
3.5% R1b1a2a1a1"

zanipolo
13-06-13, 07:52
What's a dys, all I know Is I'm T-PF7443. For anyone who's interested btw, here's the genetic composition of L'aquila, btw how do I figure out what my DYS is?



Haplogroup composition of L'Aquila:


21% T
14% G2a
14% R1b1a2a1a2
10% L
10% E-V13
10% J2a
7% R1b1a2
3.5% I2b1
3.5% J1e
3.5% R1a
3.5% R1b1a2a1a
3.5% R1b1a2a1a1"

where you get the numbers from?..........because the guy i told you just sent me an email and he is a 23andme project person.
he stated these numbers as above, plus


The Sabine tribe could belong mostly to haplogroup T

I think he is from Ibiza or from galicia Spain.

DYS, ....hundred or so numbers like
DYS393 =13 ..........is a marker with many other markers to distinguish your haplogroup.
Whoever did your test must have given you something

Mythology stated that Sabines are laecomenians people which means Dorians which means tajiks which means from the pamir mountains ............greeks mythology states the dorians from the Pamir knot replaced the myceneans in 1200BC ..............Believe what you want .......I find mythology to much fantasy

adamo
13-06-13, 08:22
Genographic project did, they did not give me DYS whatever that is. Where can I find my DYS?

zanipolo
13-06-13, 08:44
Genographic project did, they did not give me DYS whatever that is. Where can I find my DYS?

they should give it to you or something.............how else did they predict your type

adamo
13-06-13, 09:17
They basically just said I'm T-M70+ and within it I'm L299+ and classed me as T-PF7443... They ave me nothing else.

zanipolo
14-06-13, 09:29
They basically just said I'm T-M70+ and within it I'm L299+ and classed me as T-PF7443... They ave me nothing else.

then log in to Nat-geno site and if you have no log account , email them for one since you are a testee.

then IF you want you can transfer your results to FTDNA for free ( i think its still free )


when did you do this test?

adamo
14-06-13, 13:50
A while ago, I transferred my results then forgot my code and password .... And the transfer didn't really work ..

adamo
14-06-13, 14:07
My results according to ftdna :

HAPLOGROUP INFOYour Haplogroup Tests Taken
T-M70 : V9+ V205+ V189+ V186+ PF970+ P187+ P166+ P160+ P159+ P158+ P151+ P148+ P146+ P145+ P141+ P14+ P138+ P136+ P135+ P132+ P131+ P128+ M94+ M89+ M70+ M42+ M294+ M272+ M168+ M139+ L566+ L498+ L490+ L470+ L468+ L455+ L454+ L453+ L350+ L299+ L298+ L208+ L162+ L16+ L15+ L132+ F1046+ CTS8004+ CTS3654+ CTS11556+

adamo
14-06-13, 14:13
Then they tell me some junk about further testing to see which subgroup I am. Now its currently trying to charge me some 500$ to take a test to see which one of the subclades I am...can anyone help me better? Lol what do the above results mean.... I see whee M-70+ starts then I don't get it

zanipolo
14-06-13, 20:55
Then they tell me some junk about further testing to see which subgroup I am. Now its currently trying to charge me some 500$ to take a test to see which one of the subclades I am...can anyone help me better? Lol what do the above results mean.... I see whee M-70+ starts then I don't get it

I am no expert, but you look like being the old marker of Pages00002 , which is now part of

T1a1a L208/Page2, L905

write to either of these guys and explain you joined FTDNA but forgot ID, they will help



Gareth Henson [email protected] , Group Administrator
Peter Hrechdakian [email protected] , Group Co-Administrator


from their site
Results are in for Deep Clade Tests and most clusters have been confirmed as either L208+ (aka PAGES00002) and P77-, or P77+.
so Pages00002 is now called L208+ , which you have.

The $500 that someone asked for was for a WTY to be done (walk the Y ), dont do anything until you here from them. You could have a unique line like mine and they will pay for ONE SNP test with FTDNA that they choose for you. They did this for me, that is tested L446 before it came out "officially"


from M-184 site
T1a1a (L208/Page2, L905) Mostly found in western Europe, eastern Anatolia, Iran, Arabian Peninusla, Upper Egypt and Horn of Africa. Some spots in western Morocco, Sahrawis and Canarias.

zanipolo
14-06-13, 21:13
L208+ in Italy

60% of T in Campania
53% of T in Molise, Abruzzo and Romagna
14% of T in Calabria
.................................
elsewhere the majority noted as L208+ is in Armenia and southern England. Looks like a eastern anatolian starting point

adamo
15-06-13, 04:21
Is it P77+ or p77- I can't tell, but somehow my code looks very similar to other P77+ people.

zanipolo
15-06-13, 05:32
Is it P77+ or p77- I can't tell, but somehow my code looks very similar to other P77+ people.

you do not have this P77 as its not tested in your results, you have the one below L208+ ( which was called Page00002 before)

+ means tested and confirmed positive

- means tested and not of this mark

call, the guys i mentioned and see if they will test you for P77

adamo
15-06-13, 05:52
Yeah but then I have 2 test M320, P77 and like 7 others to see which one i am costing me like 300$

zanipolo
15-06-13, 07:10
Yeah but then I have 2 test M320, P77 and like 7 others to see which one i am costing me like 300$

M320 is the old T1 mark which ended up being a private marker. a single person ...unique

your line is the old T2 , which has L208, P77 etc

my line is the old T3, which is L131 line


so, T1 became private

T2 became T1a1 group

and T3 became T1a2 group


check ISOGG t group and you do not need to do all the SNP once you are confirmed in one line ,

as an example I do not do P322 because it does not belong to my line

adamo
15-06-13, 08:02
Basically I know I'm T1a1 and within it I'm T1a1a but now the question is wether in T1a1a1 (P77) or T1a1a2 (P321) , and even then I have virtually no information on these two subgroups.

zanipolo
15-06-13, 08:49
Basically I know I'm T1a1 and within it I'm T1a1a but now the question is wether in T1a1a1 (P77) or T1a1a2 (P321) , and even then I have virtually no information on these two subgroups.

you only have 1 option ...to do a P77 test...........if you are negative, then you remain at L208+
if you are positive for P77 then there are 2 branches only

P321 which is T1a1a1 ...........then later you can do P317 test

or

do a Z709 test and you remain at T1a1a1* and wait for this branch to expand.

....but you can take a risk and do the P321 test first which bypasses P77, but if you are negative result then you still need to do the P77 test...if you are postive then you are positive in P77

adamo
15-06-13, 09:35
I saw several individuals on genographic 2.0 classed under Z709, I don't know what it is

adamo
15-06-13, 12:33
So basically I'm somehow kurdish or Iraqi Jewish as this is the highest % areas of P-77, also the Quaish tribe of Saudi Arabians Nejd/Hejaz regions have quite some P-77, do you have any more info on P-77?

albanopolis
15-06-13, 18:25
[QUOTE=adamo;409992]What's a dys, all I know Is I'm T-PF7443. For anyone who's interested btw, here's the genetic composition of L'aquila, btw how do I figure out what my DYS is?



Haplogroup composition of L'Aquila:


21% T
14% G2a
14% R1b1a2a1a2
10% L
10% E-V13
10% J2a
7% R1b1a2
3.5% I2b1
3.5% J1e
3.5% R1a
3.5% R1b1a2a1a
3.5% R1b1a2a1a1"[/QUOTE
The way the sampling is carried out is very misleading. The population of Italy should be divided in areas with equal number of populations, and out of them should be extracted the same sample size. I am sure the genetists have taken statistics at school but they should tell us, how they did it. People like me are very sensitive in mathematical way the study was carried. Othewise the generalisations are misleading. I have seen the Greek studies and they will tell you how the Egean Islands population Cluster genetically and then they average it out with the rest of the areas to come with national numbers. Bot when you see it closely, Egean Island population is 150 000 you cant average it out with 7 milion that live in south, even if the sample size is the same. South and Central Italy are predominntly middle Eastern extraction. I never thought about it.

adamo
15-06-13, 19:05
I already anticipate zanipolo will ignore your post and continue on the correct subject probably : ) but thank you for your input albanopolis

zanipolo
15-06-13, 20:24
I saw several individuals on genographic 2.0 classed under Z709, I don't know what it is

Z709 is only a few months old and IMO is west-med. ( Iberia -Italy ) its found in central and south american old spanish lands.

You are ATM a L208+ which is eastern anatolia .............either Armenian or Kurdish....maybe even Azeri.
You do not seem to have south-west asian numbers ( i.e saudi-arabia or Jordan areas )

zanipolo
15-06-13, 20:25
So basically I'm somehow kurdish or Iraqi Jewish as this is the highest % areas of P-77, also the Quaish tribe of Saudi Arabians Nejd/Hejaz regions have quite some P-77, do you have any more info on P-77?

you are not P77 because you have not been tested for it

adamo
15-06-13, 20:30
What would south-west Asian numbers be? I guess we can confirm I'm Fertile Crescent kurdish/Iraqi type T? But even then I need to further test to find out...

zanipolo
15-06-13, 22:33
What would south-west Asian numbers be? I guess we can confirm I'm Fertile Crescent kurdish/Iraqi type T? But even then I need to further test to find out...

talks to the guys I linked, I cannot help anymore, I do not know enough

zanipolo
15-06-13, 23:03
[QUOTE=adamo;409992]What's a dys, all I know Is I'm T-PF7443. For anyone who's interested btw, here's the genetic composition of L'aquila, btw how do I figure out what my DYS is?



Haplogroup composition of L'Aquila:


21% T
14% G2a
14% R1b1a2a1a2
10% L
10% E-V13
10% J2a
7% R1b1a2
3.5% I2b1
3.5% J1e
3.5% R1a
3.5% R1b1a2a1a
3.5% R1b1a2a1a1"[/QUOTE
The way the sampling is carried out is very misleading. The population of Italy should be divided in areas with equal number of populations, and out of them should be extracted the same sample size. I am sure the genetists have taken statistics at school but they should tell us, how they did it. People like me are very sensitive in mathematical way the study was carried. Othewise the generalisations are misleading. I have seen the Greek studies and they will tell you how the Egean Islands population Cluster genetically and then they average it out with the rest of the areas to come with national numbers. Bot when you see it closely, Egean Island population is 150 000 you cant average it out with 7 milion that live in south, even if the sample size is the same. South and Central Italy are predominntly middle Eastern extraction. I never thought about it.

the numbers are justified because it deals with ONLY one area, if it was done by nation or split it will be 100% wrong and results for some markers would be diluted.
its like rome numbers would be different from taranto numbers and a person can read it better, but if they where joined then the numbers would be irrelevant .

Genetics does not recognise national borders, its only people like us that carry on about national borders and what genetic place we are from.

adamo
19-06-13, 00:00
It seems that the Elamites where the ancestors of all Persians, so judging on haplogroup T's low but relatively higher frequency in that region, hg T was probably a first, ancestral substratum of Persians ( Iranians) as using the term Persians would be incorrect, considering they where an indo-European group, the Persians where new foreign migrants whereas the Elamites where the original iranian group.

zanipolo
25-07-13, 09:46
@Adamo

Haplogroup T (known as Haplogroup K2 until May 2008) is defined by SNP M184 and is found at low frequencies in the Middle East, Europe and North Africa. Most lines in T belong to subgroup T1a defined by SNP M70 which until March 2011 was considered equivalent to M184.
T1a in turn splits into T1a1 (T-L162), T1a2 (T-L131) and T1a3 (T-L1255).
T1a1 clusters along an east-west axis from Iran to Spain. T1a2 is found both in northern Europe and southern Africa but is rarer in the eastern and western edges of T's distribution zone. To date, T1a3 has only been found in Kuwait.

Recent developments including the Geno 2.0 chip have identified the following major subgroups of T1a:

T-L208 (T1a1a* on the current ISOGG tree http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html)
T-Z709 (T1a1a1*)
T-P77 (T1a1a1a)
T-P322 (T1a2a)
T-L446 (T1a2b)
Most lineages in T will belong to one of these 5 branches. The first two are strictly speaking paragroups and may split into several branches when more data is available.

Thomas Jefferson is believed to have belonged to haplogroup T, based on tests carried out on individuals sharing his paternal line.
For more information on T and the Jefferson family link see:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/114108057/ABSTRACT
and
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6332545.stm

..................................
You are L208, you need to test for either Z709 or P77 ...........you cannot be positive in both. your decision. Once you are positive ignore the other unless the first tested is negative

adamo
28-07-13, 01:23
T1a P-77 dominates mizrahim Jews (Iraqi,Kurdish,Iranian) and Ashkenazi Jews. European members of early T1a branches, such as T1a or T1a1, probably reflect older Neolithic gene flow to Europe coming from Jordanians or Assyrians, for example. Once we touch T1a2 (P77), these Europeans cluster heavily with middle eastern/European branches of Jewish diaspora. Within the T network, there are 29 links to middle eastern populations, 27 links to Jews, 8 to Europeans and 5 to Africans. The entire P77 family is predominantly Jewish.

adamo
28-07-13, 01:25
Jefferson was a T1a, very basal. He clustered with 7 Jews from different countries, 5 Egyptians, 2 Europeans, 1 Turk, 1 Syrian, 1 Jordanian. What populations is Z709 most found in? I thought it was equivalent to P77. If I'm neither and just L-208, what would that imply?

adamo
28-07-13, 01:28
The early a branch you are, the more Assyrian/Jordanian you are...anything more downstream ( younger or as young as) P77 (other than T3 kuwait)is probably spread by Jews. Whereas many T1a's are ancient Neolithic non-Jewish.

Sile
28-07-13, 12:09
Jefferson was a T1a, very basal. He clustered with 7 Jews from different countries, 5 Egyptians, 2 Europeans, 1 Turk, 1 Syrian, 1 Jordanian. What populations is Z709 most found in? I thought it was equivalent to P77. If I'm neither and just L-208, what would that imply?

Z709 is before P77 , IIRC its only a few months old

L-208 is found in russian site only in assyria and britain

adamo
28-07-13, 21:53
So L-208 is found in Russians, British and Assyrians, P77 is found predominantly in various Jewish communities from the mizrahim to the Ashkenazim, where is Z709 found, any more areas where L208 can be found?

adamo
28-07-13, 22:26
T2 for example, (L131) is found in Northern Europe, east and south Eastern Europe and parts of Anatolia.it is also prevalent among African Lemba, and some people from XInjiang and parts of southeastern Iberia and Tunisia. The main sub-branches of T2 , P322 and P327 are found predominantly in middle eastern Palestinians and Yemenite Jews. In Europe, these sub branches are found in parts of Scandinavia, Denmark, Germany and the Netherlands.

adamo
28-07-13, 22:55
The T1a2 network is composed of 5 Jewish, 5 middle eastern, 5 African and 5 European links. Some of the most basal branches of haplogroup T (L206) have been found in Syrians (T-M184). As for T1 (M70), it is first attested in Iranian Jews and Iraqi Jews, from where it probably arrived from further eastwards of Iran ( keeping in mind that K2 mutated after the K-M9 polymorphism. ( K-M9 originated in north-central Iran and K2 originated afterwards, probably further east.) As for T1a (PS21) which is first attested as being found in "Iran", it makes up the vast majority of Egyptian, Ethiopian, Druze, Jordanian, Assyrian, Iranian, Moroccan Jewish, Ethiopian Jewish and Ashkenazi Jewish T haplotypes; also most haplogroup T is T1a in Iraqi and Syrian samples, as well as 40% of Turkish samples. A more downstream mutation T1a-P77, is found primarily in mizrahim Jews ( Iraqi, Kurdish, Iranian Jews and Ashkenazi Jews.) so most Jewish T is downstream forms of T1a as well. P77 is found in a minute (minimal) amount of Egyptian, Palestinian, Jordanian, Syrian and half of Iraqi T is also P77, not to mention half of Turkish Jews. The P77 network has something like 14 Jewish links, 5 middle eastern, 2 European 1 African link. Downstream of that P330, is found in Assyrians. Downstream of that P321 is found once more, in Syrians and Ashkenazi Jews. P317 further downstream, is found only in "Syrians and italian Jews."

adamo
29-07-13, 02:22
It seems that F ( southern Mesopotamia ) gave birth to I,J,H,G and K. K was born in central Iran. It produced P which moved to the plains of kazakhstan and would create R and Q. K also created N and O which would penetrate deep into east Asia, (N would move into Siberia and then to extreme northeastern Europe,). L would move from central iran, through southern pakistan and into India. T would move from central Iran to southern Afghanistan/ extreme east Iran.

Sile
31-07-13, 07:47
Paper below is an important ancient history for T

http://dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2013-08-01.pdf

it follows this paper below

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/uruk-migrants-in-caucasus.html

they involve Sumerians, Elamites and the important Uruk people

Note: In Dnatribes, terms are different to most others, example...Greek means , Greece, Albania and southern Italy.
Thracian means Bulgarian, Romanian and Moldovian
Belgic means Kent ( England ) Netherlands, Belgium and parts of NE France

adamo
02-08-13, 10:22
Given the inhospitable climatic conditions4 and paucity of archaeological remains3 in Armenia from the millennia preceding the Neolithic, the predominance of Neolithic Y-chromosomes in Armenia suggests that the region was sparsely settled before the arrival of early farmers.5 Settlement during the Mesolithic, such as those observed near Sasun,4 were likely only fleeting. We envision a hypothetical, yet compelling, scenario in which Neolithic agriculturalists from the Levant occupied a vacant Armenian Plateau. This is reflected in the contour plots in Figure 4, where variance estimates indicate a demic decreasing gradient from the Levant toward Armenia, while frequencies illustrate an inverse cline, supporting the idea that the migrants from the Levant constitute a great proportion of the Armenian population. According to this contention, most Paleolithic genetic signals currently detected in the Armenian highlands represent influx of chromosomes from continuously settled areas and not vestiges from older occupations. This is supported by time estimates for Haplogroup T-M184, a clade believed to have originated in the Near East during the Paleolithic,46 as we observe dates in Armenia (~12–13 kya) lower than those in other regions of the Near East, including Iran and the Levant (~20 kya). Such a disparity suggests the Haplogroup T lineages presently observed in Armenia were introduced by migrations that are more recent than those that carried Haplogroup T to the Levant and Iran. Given the difficulties associated with absolute dating, it is also possible that these markers were carried by migrants entering Armenia during an even later era, such as the Bronze Age if the T lineage within genetic contributors has been lost to genetic drift. Interesting information on hg T

adamo
02-08-13, 10:24
The haplotypes of the 35 individuals belonging to Haplogroup T are provided in Supplementary Table 4. The distribution of haplotypes within Haplogroup T-M184 illustrated in an MJ network (Supplementary Figure 4) depicts a positioning of clusters composed almost entirely of Levantine individuals in the center of the diagram, with all other groups emanating from this area. This potentially points toward an origin of these haplotypes in the Levant, a supposition that is further supported by the observation of high genetic diversity in the network among levantine individuals within haplogroup T-M184 in the Levant. Time estimates for T-M184 individuals (Supplementary Table 5) corroborate the supposition that the lineage originated in the Levant and entered the Armenian Plateau at a later time, as the dates generated from Levantine (6.2±1.8 kya using Ravid-Amir and Rosset34) and Iranian (5.9±1.3 kya) individuals are older than those yielded from Turkey (5.7±1.2 kya), Sasun (5.0±1.2 kya) and the remaining three Armenian populations (average 3.9±1.0 kya).

adamo
02-08-13, 10:28
According to a study on Armenian haplogroups, it seems haplogroup T arrived later there than in the levant or Iran, for example. The center of the T diagram depicts a Levantine network, with all other groups radiating out from there. This potentially points to a Levantine origin for T, further supported by a very high network diversity in the levant as well.

adamo
04-08-13, 06:11
Can anyone tell me what this means about haplogroup T1a1a (L208), there are a large number of new SNPs relevant to Haplogroup T on the Geno 2.0 chip. Z709 appears to be the most significant as it splits the large T-L208 paragroup into 2 roughly equal branches - a redefined T-L208* and T-Z709. T-P77 is a subgroup of T-Z709. So I'm either T-Z709 (P77) is downstream of this branch or I'm a redefined L-208, which is what I believe I am, with no further Z-709 mutation.

Sile
07-08-13, 11:53
for Adamo

2010 T-M70 only confirmation from Russian site

Had a work colleague decifer, but I am unsure. Female russian from socie ( maybe I need a new translation )

http://gentis.ru/info/ydna-tutorial/hg-t/m70

oldest area by years ( oldest at top ):
irak and syria
then
anatolia
greece and egypt
spain and russia
central europe
arabia
somalia at 3300 years ago is the youngest

bicicleur
07-08-13, 17:13
hi
i know my paternal linage back to 1730 from city of shiraz from a lore tribe called zand and i found i have Y HG T.
i wonder which ancient peoplein iran or mesoptamie had this kind of Y HG before arrival of aryans with R1a y hg ?
regards

the last ice age was not only very cold, it was also a dry and arid climate
many tribes had to look for a refuge

the Iranian plateau was an exception during the ice age : it had about 50 % more rainfall than today
mainly haplogroup G came to Iran for a refuge, but also some haplogroup T

after the ice age the climate on the Iranian plateau became arid again, forcing these people to look for a new territory once again . that was long before the invasion of the aryans

Sile
09-08-13, 21:03
the last ice age was not only very cold, it was also a dry and arid climate
many tribes had to look for a refuge

the Iranian plateau was an exception during the ice age : it had about 50 % more rainfall than today
mainly haplogroup G came to Iran for a refuge, but also some haplogroup T

after the ice age the climate on the Iranian plateau became arid again, forcing these people to look for a new territory once again . that was long before the invasion of the aryans

Ancestry.com label haplogroup T as "Tigris valley farmers"

Alan
10-08-13, 16:23
It seems that the Elamites where the ancestors of all Persians, so judging on haplogroup T's low but relatively higher frequency in that region, hg T was probably a first, ancestral substratum of Persians ( Iranians) as using the term Persians would be incorrect, considering they where an indo-European group, the Persians where new foreign migrants whereas the Elamites where the original iranian group.

Persian origin is most likely the result of Iranian nomads merging with Elamites. So in other words. without this merging Persians as we know wouldn't have existed.

adamo
10-08-13, 17:18
There is significant evidence for a Jewish diaspora origin of hg T. Some of the highest levels of hg T are found in middle eastern Jews, as well as Portuguese Jews. The city of Samsun in eastern turkey is named after Shamshoun/Shimshon, he was a legendary "strong-man" from the tribe of Dan (one of the 12 lost tribes of Israel, including Simeon,Judea,Manasseh,etc.) thus creating a Jewish link between this city. Also, we know that hg T-P77 was probably spread by Assyrians exiling the Jews to their mizrahim communities (Jews of Babylon/Mesopotamia). There is also hg T in Ethiopia, where Jews where also exiled by the Assyrians, for example. The reality is that hg T may e a sort of "definite" Jewish marker, or I may be wrong.

Sile
11-08-13, 20:38
latest count from assyrian studies ................T group keeps growing in percentage.


N=109 (August 2, 2013)
24.8%--R1b
18.3%--J1
16.5%--T
12.8%--J2
8.3%--E1b1b1
8.3%--G
4.6%--R2a
2.8%--Q1b
1.8%--R1a
0.9%--F
0.9%--L


Note:
the R1b.....must be part of the very old assyrian-Hittite wars ( my guess).
Nearly 3% of Q.
Low L ...hmmm, .......where did North-Italy get the 8.2% of L and 4.5% of T from?

adamo
12-08-13, 00:12
Wow, so in Assyrian populations T stacks between J1 and J2 in importance (put it this way, the J family is VERY important to Assyrian heritage.) So it is a "main" Assyrian marker. At 16% of them positive for T, this makes them competitors with Egyptians,Jordanians and Iraqi/Kurdish/Iranian Jewish groups (16% for all) and iraqis and Somalians are not too far behind (13%).

Mikewww
12-08-13, 23:07
Wow, so in Assyrian populations T stacks between J1 and J2 in importance (put it this way, the J family is VERY important to Assyrian heritage.) So it is a "main" Assyrian marker. At 16% of them positive for T, this makes them competitors with Egyptians,Jordanians and Iraqi/Kurdish/Iranian Jewish groups (16% for all) and iraqis and Somalians are not too far behind (13%).
What are T's frequency numbers for Jordan and for Lebanon.

Originally, if I have it right, Wells et al (National Geno) were saying that T went along with J2 as common in Phoenicians but that would include people in present day Lebanon.

Sile
12-08-13, 23:17
What are T's frequency numbers for Jordan and for Lebanon.

Originally, if I have it right, Wells et al (National Geno) were saying that T went along with J2 as common in Phoenicians but that would include people in present day Lebanon.

ALL T have = T-M184 marker: 3% in Jordan, 5% in Lebanon, Armenian Sasuntzis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daredevils_of_Sassoun) 21%, Zoroastrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrian) Persians 13%, SW Armenians/Cilicia 12%.

90% of T have T-M70+ : 28% (7/25) of Lezginians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lezgian_people) , 16% Assyrians

Also depends on which of the 2 main branches you inquiring about.

I seen claims of 22% for jordanians, but I have never seen this

Mikewww
12-08-13, 23:23
ALL T have = T-M184 marker: 3% in Jordan, 5% in Lebanon, Armenian Sasuntzis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daredevils_of_Sassoun) 21%, Zoroastrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrian) Persians 13%, SW Armenians/Cilicia 12%.

90% of T have T-M70+ : 28% (7/25) of Lezginians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lezgian_people) , 16% Assyrians

Also depends on which of the 2 main branches you inquiring about.

I seen claims of 22% for jordanians, but I have never seen this

Thank you, Sile.

My father-in-law is of Spanish descent and is T-M70 of the alpha cluster. We are somewhat swayed by the Phoenician/Mediterranean story that National Geno has presented, but I guess there is a possibility of Jewish descent or perhaps even Moorish descent. I would like to get some kind of inclination but I have no idea what's most likely.

Sile
12-08-13, 23:42
Thank you, Sile.

My father-in-law is of Spanish descent and is T-M70 of the alpha cluster. We are somewhat swayed by the Phoenician/Mediterranean story that National Geno has presented, but I guess there is a possibility of Jewish descent or perhaps even Moorish descent. I would like to get some kind of inclination but I have no idea what's most likely.

T-M70 splits in 2 in old Anatolia, with T1a1 being mostly southern and T1a2 being mostly northern european.

A person named Humanist on another forum specializes in assyrian Y-dna and T for assyrians is 16%. Assyrians would be also northern lebanese. If this is the link with Phoenicians you seek. Then again phoenicians where in ancient egypt to

maybe your ancestor was like the USA president Thomas , from ancient Egypt to Iberia to Wales

adamo
13-08-13, 06:08
T is not very present in Lebanon (3-5%). As for Jordan, I've seen frequencies between 3 and 21%. The genographic project claims 15-20% T for Jordanians. I've seen studies of 3 to 12% for Palestinians, 8-15% of Egyptians, 6-13% of Iraqis, 13% of Turkish Kurds, but it seems more present in Iraqi Jews, iranian Jews and Kurdish Jews 14-22%. Also found at 12-15% frequencies across much of southwestern Iran.

adamo
13-08-13, 06:18
It is found in many Jewish diaspora groups predominantly Iraqi Jews (22%), Kurdish Jews (18%) and Iranian Jews (14%). It is also found in north Portuguese Jews 15%). Oddly enough, T is rare in Israel itself and in nearby Lebanon and Syria. T is present, but at very low frequencies (3%) in Ashkenazi Jews. To counter this "Jewish" origin link, some 20% of Hashemite Arab Jordanians, also have T. It is a marker present in Assyrian (16%) and Turkish Kurd (13%) populations. It can also be found in many Iranian men.

adamo
14-08-13, 23:59
https://www.google.ca/search?q=haplogroup+t&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.50723672,d.bmk,pv.xjs.s.en_US.KGJnDGbmMqg.O&biw=1093&bih=458&wrapid=tlif137651751992010&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=lv0LUoiuFsnZrQfm84BA#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=KRWmY-0OTAYvfM%3A%3BdUOkHLtz9pqdtM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252F www.arslanmb.org%252FArmenianDNAProject%252Fsubcla detmapupdated.png%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.eupedia .com%252Fforum%252Farchive%252Findex.php%252Ft-28472.html%3B3301%3B2006

adamo
15-08-13, 00:21
according to this map T1a has a more assyrian distribution originating from north-central Iran, pushing to Armenia/Azerbaijan and then spilling into anatolia slightly and the levant (syrians,Lebanese) spilling into egypt and parts of arabia as well. WHEREAS T3 seems to radiate from anatolia from where it spilt into saudi arabians, kuwaitis and bakhtiaris in the middle east.

adamo
15-08-13, 00:29
T2 VARIETY (L162,L208,L1117): 90% of north-central Iranians (high diversity/age) 50% of southern Iranians, 100% of Azerbaijani T, 100% OF armenian (high diversity and age), 100% of Lurs people, 100% of Chechen, 100% of syrian and 92% of Lebanese T is T1a. 100% of Druze, 75% of Egyptian and 90% of Ethiopian. About 57% of Saudi Arabian(high diversity), 75% of Omanian, and 82% of T near Dubai (high diversity). Also about 45% of Turkish T is T2. T1a probably originated in north-central Iran, moved near Urartu (the Armenia/Azerbaijan area) and then dipped towards syria/Lebanon, continuing across the levant/Canaan region and penetrating Africa to reach the Horn of Africa. T3 on the other hand, originated later on, in Turkey. it would move south to many saudi arabian, kuwaiti and bakhtiari bedouin tribes.

Sile
17-08-13, 12:33
I got my 23andme test back...............I still think FtDna is far superior.

anyway here goes .

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2997/vbnq.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/28/vbnq.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

(http://imageshack.us)http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/4069/sfil.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/689/sfil.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

conservative numbers ABOVE
.......................................
speculative numbers BELOW

below is me
99.9% European


Southern European
33.2% Italian
2.4% Iberian
1.0% Balkan
0.0% Sardinian
16.2% Nonspecific Southern European

Northern European
22.6% French and German
0.8% British and Irish
0.0% Scandinavian
0.0% Finnish
17.2% Nonspecific Northern European

1.2% Eastern European
0.1% Ashkenazi
5.1% Nonspecific European

0.1% Middle Eastern & North African
0.1% North African
0.0% Middle Eastern
0.0% Nonspecific Middle Eastern & North African
0.0% Sub-Saharan African

0.0% South Asian
0.0% East Asian & Native American
0.0% East Asian

0.0% Native American
0.0% Nonspecific East Asian & Native American

0.0% Oceanian
< 0.1% Unassigned

Sile
17-08-13, 21:10
I got my 23andme test back...............I still think FtDna is far superior.

anyway here goes .

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2997/vbnq.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/28/vbnq.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

(http://imageshack.us)http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/4069/sfil.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/689/sfil.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

conservative numbers ABOVE
.......................................
speculative numbers BELOW

below is me
99.9% European


Southern European
33.2% Italian
2.4% Iberian
1.0% Balkan
0.0% Sardinian
16.2% Nonspecific Southern European

Northern European
22.6% French and German
0.8% British and Irish
0.0% Scandinavian
0.0% Finnish
17.2% Nonspecific Northern European

1.2% Eastern European
0.1% Ashkenazi
5.1% Nonspecific European

0.1% Middle Eastern & North African
0.1% North African
0.0% Middle Eastern
0.0% Nonspecific Middle Eastern & North African
0.0% Sub-Saharan African

0.0% South Asian
0.0% East Asian & Native American
0.0% East Asian

0.0% Native American
0.0% Nonspecific East Asian & Native American

0.0% Oceanian
< 0.1% Unassigned

T Migrational map and theory by project managers a year ago

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/1749/jb3q.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/833/jb3q.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

adamo
18-08-13, 08:51
It seems to be present in Italy mostly where Phoenicians settled. For example, many T samples are from Palermo (ancient Phoenician "Ziz", was passed on to succeeding Carthaginians). Mazara del vallo (anciently Phoenician city of Mazar) ,there was also much Phoenician presence near Sciacca.

Sile
18-08-13, 09:38
It seems to be present in Italy mostly where Phoenicians settled. For example, many T samples are from Palermo (ancient Phoenician "Ziz", was passed on to succeeding Carthaginians). Mazara del vallo (anciently Phoenician city of Mazar) ,there was also much Phoenician presence near Sciacca.

The chart is from 2010 to May 2013, it a combination of older name markers and new ones, so here is a summary of the markers.

All T1a1* + T2 = modern T1a1a ( ie P77 branch)

All T1a2 + T1b = modern T1a2a ( ie L131 branch )

All T1a3 = the new find from May 2013

All T1a* = mix of the top 2 branches

I agree with you on the Phoenicians

silkyslovanbojkovsky
20-08-13, 20:54
Do you know what sub group of HG T Thomas Jefferson had?

adamo
21-08-13, 05:26
Jefferson was T1a.

Sile
21-08-13, 07:54
using y-predictor, below is Thomas Jefferson

N Haplogroup Probability
1 T1a*-L162(xP77) 94%

Sile
29-08-13, 04:49
T Migrational map and theory by project managers a year ago

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/1749/jb3q.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/833/jb3q.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

from interpretome,

my results from this company, ...black square is me

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/7573/tmth.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/838/tmth.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

accurate from what I know ( above)

and

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/7910/ceen.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/ceen.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

I don't know why I am in with swedes and finns

adamo
30-08-13, 03:13
What is weird is that 3.8 out of 10 Kazakhs from the Altai region have hg T. And 10% of Tuvinians from Kyzl near Northern Mongolia have T as well.

adamo
31-08-13, 19:36
It's interesting to note some of the youngest branches of T are found in Gaziantep, Adana, Diyarbakir, Harran, Latakia on the Turko-Syrian border.

adamo
31-08-13, 19:39
It can also be found in areas of a turkey such as Antalya, Van in the Kurdish eastern regions, Sivas etc.

Sile
10-09-13, 07:55
antalya has 13.3% since tested in 2012 and not the 3.3% as previously noted.

why the russians believe T-M184 is origin of babylonian and that T-M70 is central asian.



Kazakhs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhs)
Kazakh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakh_language) (Turkic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_language))
Kosh-Agachski Raion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosh-Agachski_Raion)
19/49
38.8%
[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184#cite_note-7)
K(xL, NOP). According to Dulik 2011 only T fit.


Tuvinians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuvinians)
Tuvan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuvan_language) (Turkic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_language))
Kyzyl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyzyl) and Ubsunur Hollow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubsunur_Hollow)
10/102
9.8%
[8]
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184#cite_note-M._A._Gubina_et_al-8)




Haplogroup T-M184 is not associated with the R1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1_%28Y-DNA%29), G (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J_%28Y-DNA%29) and J (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J_%28Y-DNA%29) lineages that entered Africa from Eurasia relatively recently. Luis et al. (2004) suggest that the presence of the clade on the African continent may, like R1* representatives, point to an older introduction from Asia. The Levant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant) rather than the Arabian Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabia) appears to have been the main route of entry, as the Egyptian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt) and Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey) haplotypes are considerably older in age (13,700 ybp and 9,000 ybp, respectively) than those found in Oman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oman) (only 1,600 ybp).

The distribution of haplogroup T-M184 in most parts of Europe is patchy or regionalized; for example, haplogroup T-M184 was found in 1.7% (10/591) of a pool of six samples of males from southwestern Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia), but it was completely absent from a pool of eight samples totalling 637 individuals from the northern half of European Russia.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184#cite_note-6) The Russians from the southwest were from the following cities: Roslavl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roslavl), Livny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livny), Pristen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pristen_%28inhabited_locality%29), Repyevka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repyevka), and Belgorod (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgorod); and Kuban Cossacks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuban_Cossacks) from the Republic of Adygea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Adygea).

adamo
10-09-13, 10:25
Ok so ....I don't get it; is it the Babylonian ones or the central asian guys?

adamo
10-09-13, 10:27
Or did it simultaneously spring up among Babylonians in particular and central Asians as well?

adamo
10-09-13, 10:29
So please explain to me how it happened geographically.

Sile
10-09-13, 11:59
Ok so ....I don't get it; is it the Babylonian ones or the central asian guys?

M184 the base ( fountation) of T formed with the Babylonians/Mesopotamians in the Tigris valley as per ancestry, nat geo and others companies stated, the M70 line formed in the pamir mountain areas, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan areas .
so, everyone states T is west-asian ( justified IMO ) because of the babylonian area and its founder M184, but russians state its central-asian because M70 ( which is 90% of all T ) was created east of the caspian sea.

Sile
10-09-13, 12:41
Antalya is 13.3% T1 haplogroup . the ancient people there where called the Lycians . Under the leadership of Sarpedon they travelled to support the trojans in their wars agaunst the myceneans.
- Hittites could never conquer their lands
- They where renowned as being great sailors and pirates.
- Ancient tales state they originated from Crete and where originally a branch of the minoans.

adamo
10-09-13, 20:28
So every man with T-M70 has an ancestor that traveled out further than the caspiann which makes sense, because L is found at 10-15% across Pakistan, southern India, and Tajikistan has like 10%, Iran like 5% and T neighboured L but slightly more to the west of Pakistan, towards neighbouring countries to the west.

adamo
11-09-13, 06:50
Did the men of T belong to Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex? Consistently I am told that T is linked to Uzbeks, tajiks (iranic group), It has been found in 2/4 samples of Dari speaking Tajik's in Afghanistan's Logar province.



Dari (Persian: دری‎ [dæˈɾiː]) or Dari Persian (Persian: فارسی دری‎ [fɒːɾsije dæˈɾiː]) is a name given to the New Persian language at a very early date and widely attested in Arabic and Persian texts since the 10th century.[5] Farsi-Dari, can be classified linguistically as a continuation of Middle Persian, the official religious and literary language of Sassanian Iran, itself a continuation of Old Persian, the language of the Achaemenids.[6][7] In Afghanistan, Dari refers to a modern dialect form of Persian that is the standard language used in administration, government, radio, television, and print media in Afghanistan, as well as in parts of Iran and Tajikistan (where the Cyrillic script is used in place of Perso-Arabic). Because of preponderance of Dari native speakers, who normally refer to the language as Farsi, it is also known as Afghan Persian in some Western sources.[8][9] Dari is the term officially recognized and promoted in 1964 by the Afghan government for the Persian language.[10] As defined in the Constitution of Afghanistan, it is one of the two official languages of Afghanistan; the other is Pashto.[11] Dari is the most widely spoken language in Afghanistan and the native language of approximately 50%[8][12][13][14] of the population, serving as the country's lingua franca.[15] The Iranian and Afghan types of Persian are highly mutually intelligible, with differences found primarily in the vocabulary and phonology. In historical usage, Dari refers to the Middle Persian court language of the Sassanids.[16]
Dari, spoken in Afghanistan, should not be confused with Dari or Gabri of Iran, a language of the Central Iranian sub-group, spoken in some Zoroastrian communities.[17][18]. Dari is spoken in parts of Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistan; could these people be linked to T? What studies are there on T in those mentioned regions?

Sile
11-09-13, 14:04
Did the men of T belong to Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex? Consistently I am told that T is linked to Uzbeks, tajiks (iranic group), It has been found in 2/4 samples of Dari speaking Tajik's in Afghanistan's Logar province.



Dari (Persian: دری‎ [dæˈɾiː]) or Dari Persian (Persian: فارسی دری‎ [fɒːɾsije dæˈɾiː]) is a name given to the New Persian language at a very early date and widely attested in Arabic and Persian texts since the 10th century.[5] Farsi-Dari, can be classified linguistically as a continuation of Middle Persian, the official religious and literary language of Sassanian Iran, itself a continuation of Old Persian, the language of the Achaemenids.[6][7] In Afghanistan, Dari refers to a modern dialect form of Persian that is the standard language used in administration, government, radio, television, and print media in Afghanistan, as well as in parts of Iran and Tajikistan (where the Cyrillic script is used in place of Perso-Arabic). Because of preponderance of Dari native speakers, who normally refer to the language as Farsi, it is also known as Afghan Persian in some Western sources.[8][9] Dari is the term officially recognized and promoted in 1964 by the Afghan government for the Persian language.[10] As defined in the Constitution of Afghanistan, it is one of the two official languages of Afghanistan; the other is Pashto.[11] Dari is the most widely spoken language in Afghanistan and the native language of approximately 50%[8][12][13][14] of the population, serving as the country's lingua franca.[15] The Iranian and Afghan types of Persian are highly mutually intelligible, with differences found primarily in the vocabulary and phonology. In historical usage, Dari refers to the Middle Persian court language of the Sassanids.[16]
Dari, spoken in Afghanistan, should not be confused with Dari or Gabri of Iran, a language of the Central Iranian sub-group, spoken in some Zoroastrian communities.[17][18]. Dari is spoken in parts of Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistan; could these people be linked to T? What studies are there on T in those mentioned regions?

yes on the areas you mentioned. basically from east of the caspian sea to the aral sea.

aral sea, at end of bronze-age it was 260metres deep, today its about 3 metres deep maximum.

Sile
18-09-13, 14:37
T L445, L452, L455/PF5670, L810, M184/Page34/USP9Y+3178, M272/PF5667, Page129
• T* -
• T1 L206, L490, M193
• • T1* -
• • T1a M70/Page46/PF5662, Page78
• • • T1a* -
• • • T1a1 L162/Page21, L299/PF5675, L453/PF5617, L454
• • • • T1a1* -
• • • • T1a1a L208/Page2, L905
• • • • • T1a1a* -
• • • • • T1a1a1 Z709
• • • • • • T1a1a1* -
• • • • • • T1a1a1a P77
• • • • • T1a1a2 P321
• • • • • • T1a1a2* -
• • • • • • T1a1a2a P317
• • • T1a2 L131
• • • • T1a2* -
• • • • T1a2a P322, P328
• • • • T1a2b L446
• • • T1a3 L1255

August branches of T

latest is that
T1a1a2 P321
• • • • • • T1a1a2* -
• • • • • • T1a1a2a P317
from above will be renamed T1a4 branch

adamo
18-09-13, 22:18
So T1a is in fact M70, where are the basal T branches most common?

Sile
09-12-13, 07:04
new SNP's for T


CTS6507, CTS9882 are located downstream of P77. Listed 5 December 2013.

CTS2157, CTS11796, CTS12108 are possibly equivalent to L446. Listed 5 December 2013.


T1a1 clusters along an east-west axis from Iran to Spain. T1a2 is found both in northern Europe and southern Africa but is rarer in the eastern and western edges of T's distribution zone. To date, T1a3 has only been found in Kuwait.


discrepencies found in Nat Geo for T
L206 and M193 are at the haplogroup T level according ISOGG_YDNATreeTrunk.html and ISOGG_HapgrpK.html, and at the T1 level according to ISOGG_HapgrpT.html. (Only 2 of 11 haplogroup T Geno kits have been scored L206+ and 1 of 11 scored M193+.)

I have M193+ and L206- ....both are on same branch ..........so I think it means little

adamo
09-12-13, 07:25
What about T-PF7443; there are two of us on genographic project, me and some German fellow, my last genographic PowerPoint slide is T-M70+ followed by L299+.

Sile
18-12-13, 20:46
@adamo

you have as you say I2a

well by greatgrandmothers father on my paternal side, came from capodistria ( istria ) and is I2c marker, arriving in Veneto under the early austrian rule of 1820

EDIT - I think the austrians where setting up a slavic buffer lands there which became known as the Austrian Littoral - so they where moving people out of these "slovene/croat" areas before they put more slavs there

adamo
18-12-13, 20:59
Wow dude....we have virtually the same genetic makeup

Sile
18-12-13, 21:09
Wow dude....we have virtually the same genetic makeup

I doubt it, your line seem to arrive in Italy by sea, my line as I gathered from various scholars I spoken and wrote to, came into Italy by Germanic/italic/tyrolese alpine area previous to this via bulgaria/romania pontid area, previous to this azeri/south caucasus ( with a small north caucasus chance......balkar people) and earlier still to bactrian/sogdian lands

Azeri/south caucasus would be middle bronze-age

Thats basically what I was told, of course there is some minor flexibility in this

adamo
19-12-13, 03:22
So I guess there's more chances my line is Phoenician right?

Sile
19-12-13, 04:40
So I guess there's more chances my line is Phoenician right?

yes or lived with them and then sailed with them

adamo
19-12-13, 06:11
The big Sile was a sailor

adamo
20-12-13, 13:39
The only man I know that is T-M272* at its most basal is an Avar man (avar live just north of Azerbaijan) who now lives in turkey. These people are originally said to have migrated from the Khorasan region of Iran towards the northeastern Caucasus (Dagestan region more or less).

adamo
20-12-13, 14:09
Sile, what is T-pages00002?

adamo
20-12-13, 14:11
T-CTS6901; which form of t is that?

RZA79
15-01-14, 05:37
FYI- I belong to the J2 haplogroup but came to this thread due to interest about the Y-haplogroup on my maternal side. My cousin (mother's brother's son) recently received his Genographic Project 2.0 results and he belongs to the T-Z710 lineage (M70, L299). Both of my grandfathers' backgrounds are Ashkenazi Polish Jewish. My cousin has olive skin with dark hair and eyes, while his brother is fair with blond hair and green eyes. I hope this helps.




I'm italian from campania province southern Italy. I also have haplogroup t (M70) lineage and my sub-group is L299. Those are the paternal haplogroup results I received from the genographic project 2.0. I'm one of those Italians that has jet black hair and olive skin so naturally I always suspected I had some form of Assyrian or Mesopotamian influence in my blood. I was surprised that I don't harbour the J-M172 lineage (haplogroup j2) as this is the typical northern middle-eastern Fertile Crescent haplogroup,( it is also found in 20-25% of italian men.) instead, belonging to hg T this is MUCH rarer ( 4% of Italians). Information on our haplogroup is as scarce as the lineage itself but according to information given to me upon having received my results, haplogroup T is found in 20% of Jordanian men, up to 16% of Egyptian men in certain regions, 5 to 17% of Sicilian males, 13% of Iraqi men, and it is quite prevalent in Mizrahim Jews ( middle eastern Jews) such as Iraqi Jews (18%) iranian Jews (14%) and Kurdish Jews (22%) It is also found in 10 to 13% of Assyrian males near Anatolia. In Europe, it is found in a few isolated hotspots: the Balearic islands off the coast of Spain (16%) , Italy (4%) Sicily (5-17%) and small isolated regions of Germany (3-24%). Surprisingly, Somalia and Ethiopia both have about 14% haplogroup T but I can confirm from my own Assyrian/ Mesopotamian looks that it did not originate there; it must have arrived there from the Middle East. There are also a few tiny hotspots in India belonging to Bauris and Gond Indians but there too the haplogroup T arrived from a different source location, the Middle East. What is so confusing about this lineage is its patchy distribution ad it's low percentages all across the map even in it's middle eastern hotspots of 10-15%. Thus it is difficult to discover EXACTLY where it first originated or whether it is a Jewish diaspora genetics or rare middle eastern blood. I have never seen a study say this but I can 100% confirm that JORDAN males have , on a national level, approximately 21% haplogroup T thanks to my genographic project 2.0 "results" presentation. Other people in the project that HAVE haplogroup T and that was placed very similar to me in the "Our Story" section was :
1.An italian man from Rofrano city, Salerno , campania , southern Italy
2. An Assyrian Iraqi man from Nineveh , Iraq 3. A Jew from Poland. 4. A man from Lucca, Italy. 5. Ashkenazi Jew from Germany/Austria. 6. A second polish Jew. 7. Man from Urmia , Iran ( according to personal family stories he may be a Kurdish Jew). 8. An American man who's ancestors came from England for as many generations as he can remember. 9. 10. Two men from Peru and El Salvador that believe they have Sephardic Jewish roots. 11. Me. 12. You. So there you have it, 12 individuals from various different ethnic origins that are haplogroup T (M70) positive

LeBrok
15-01-14, 07:20
FYI- I belong to the J2 haplogroup but came to this thread due to interest about the Y-haplogroup on my maternal side. My cousin (mother's brother's son) recently received his Genographic Project 2.0 results and he belongs to the T-Z710 lineage (M70, L299). Both of my grandfathers' backgrounds are Ashkenazi Polish Jewish. My cousin has olive skin with dark hair and eyes, while his brother is fair with blond hair and green eyes. I hope this helps.
Welcome to Eupedia RZA79

adamo
15-01-14, 09:40
There are Jewish clusters within the T network, that is correct. T is very rare in Ashkenazi Jews (making up significantly less than 5% of their lineages). It's interesting that you point out that you are y-DNA J, as it is the dominant haplogroup in the Middle East (Arabs,Semites,Turks etc.) It is a mutation shared with both Arabs and Jews (Semites). As for T, it is also present in Jewish and non-Jewish populations, and certainly originated long before the creation of the Jewish ethnos, somewhere on the Iranian peninsula. It is far more frequent in mizrahim Jews than in European ones. Welcome to the forum, RZA79! : )

adamo
15-01-14, 12:36
J2 is another interesting haplogroup, I consider it to be the "Mesopotamian one" as it originated somewhere between southern turkey and northern Syria/Iraq. It is the dominant male lineage in the Fertile Crescent (northern Middle East). It is found in 35% of Lebanese, Cretans and Azeris, 30% of Syrians, Iraqis,Georgians,armenians,turks, Cypriots and at a similar frequency in southern Italians and Greeks. It is also found in 20% of Jews. Overall, the J marker represents about half of all Iraqi, Jordanian , Jewish, Lebanese and Syrian lineages, regardless of the subclade. You should be proud of having a subclade of this marker : )

adamo
15-01-14, 12:40
So your a paternal J-L210 and your other grandfather is T-M70+, do you know what your maternal lineages are?

adamo
15-01-14, 23:14
Interesting fact: Zoroastrian fire temples were built on the island of Zanzibar. The Zoroastrian religion originated in Iran.

RZA79
16-01-14, 03:48
Thanks LeBrok!

RZA79
16-01-14, 04:01
Hi adamo, thanks for the warm welcome. My direct maternal lineage is M33, but not sure about my father's maternal side. Perhaps I can convince him to do Geno 2.0. My wife (Hungarian Ashkenazi) is H1b.

While membership in the J2 paternal haplogroup makes perfect sense to me, I was very surprised with my "Indian" M mtDNA....

Sile
16-01-14, 07:39
Sile, what is T-pages00002?

just a different genetic tester person

all are below

AF = Fernando Mendez, Ph.D., University of Arizona, Tucson, Arizona
CTS = Chris Tyler-Smith, Ph.D., The Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute, Hinxton, England
DF = anonymous researcher using publicly available full-genome-sequence data, including 1000 Genomes Project data; named in honor of the DNA-Forums.org genetic genealogy community
F = Li Jin, Ph.D., Fudan University, Shanghai, China
FGC = Full Genomes Corp. of Virginia and Maryland
G = Verónica Gomes, IPATIMUP Instituto de Patologia e Imunologia Molecular da Universidade do Porto (Institute of Molecular Pathology and Immunology of the University of Porto)
IMS-JST = Institute of Medical Science-Japan Science and Technology Agency
KHS = Functional Genomics Research Center, Korea Research Institute of Bioscience and Biotechnology
KL = Key Laboratory of Contemporary Anthropology, School of Life Sciences and Institutes of Biomedical Sciences, Fudan University, Shanghai, China
L = Thomas Krahn, MSc (Dipl.-Ing.) of Family Tree DNA's Genomics Research Center; snps named in honor of the late Leo Little
M = Peter Underhill, Ph.D. of Stanford University
N = The Laboratory of Bioinformatics, Institute of Biophysics, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing
NWT = Northwest Territory, Theodore G. Schurr, Ph.D., Laboratory of Molecular Anthropology, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA
P = Michael Hammer, Ph.D. of University of Arizona
Page, PAGES or PS = David C. Page, Whitehead Institute for Biomedical Research
PF = Paolo Francalacci, Ph.D., Università di Sassari, Sassari, Italy
PK = Biomedical and Genetic Engineering Laboratories, Islamabad, Pakistan
PR = Primate (gorilla and chimpanzee), Thomas Krahn's WTTY
S = James F. Wilson, D.Phil. at Edinburgh University
SA = South America, Theodore G. Schurr, Ph.D., Laboratory of Molecular Anthropology, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA
TSC = Gudmundur A. Thorisson and Lincoln D. Stein, The SNP Consortium, Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory, Cold Spring Harbor, NY
U = Lynn M. Sims, University of Central Florida; Dennis Garvey, Ph.D. Gonzaga University; and Jack Ballantyne, Ph.D., University of Central Florida
V = Rosaria Scozzari and Fulvio Cruciani, Dipartimento di Biologia e Biotecnologie “Charles Darwin” , Sapienza Università di Roma, Rome, Italy.
VL = Vladimir Volkov, Tomsk University, Russia
Y = Y Full Team using data from the 1000 Genomes Project
YSC = Thomas Krahn, MSc (Dipl.-Ing.) of Family Tree DNA's Genomics Research Center
Z = Gregory Magoon, Ph.D., Richard Rocca, Vince Tilroe, David F. Reynolds, Bonnie Schrack, Peter M. Op den Velde Boots, Ray H. Banks, Roman Sychev, Victar Mas, Steve Fix, Christian Rottensteiner, and an anonymous individual, independent researchers of publicly available whole genome sequence datasets, and Thomas Krahn, MSc (Dipl.-Ing.), with support from the genetic genealogy community.

adamo
16-01-14, 10:42
Mtdna M is way "out there" for a middle easterner, but it just comes to solidify that you aren't European in terms of genetic composition.

adamo
16-01-14, 12:14
Also, your wife seems to be a rare Jew with a more European maternal side. Your markers though are overwhelmingly middle eastern from the little we know, with an additional M marker thrown in there (I don't know how it got in a Jew) which seems to have an Indian/southeast Asian center of weight, although basal M1 seems to be found in Egypt, the Horn of Africa and a small portion of the Arabian peninsula , it has North African + mild middle eastern presence. All other forms of M past M1 (M2 and etc.) seem to have India as a center of weight.

adamo
16-01-14, 12:27
Your wife's mtdna may make sense due to her being Ashkenazi Jewish (east-Central European Jews) , thus I postulate her ancestors had contact with Hungarians on the maternal side.

Sile
16-01-14, 22:28
Your wife's mtdna may make sense due to her being Ashkenazi Jewish (east-Central European Jews) , thus I postulate her ancestors had contact with Hungarians on the maternal side.

Hungarians came from the Ural mountains, are you saying central asians or the much much later magyar hungarians?

RZA79
17-01-14, 00:37
Adamo- do you have an academic background in genetic anthropology or did you gain all your knowledge from personal interest and practice?


And are you saying that you feel my M mt-DNA more likely originates from a westward migration from India to the Near East in ancient times, rather than admixture with Eastern Europeans in relatively more modern times? Apparently the M33c subclade is somewhat commonly found in Belarus/Russia.

My outward features are more typically northern European- I'm 6'2" (188 m), fair skin, light hair, blue eyes. But this seemingly contrasts with my autosomal DNA makeup, according to NG Geno 2.0 and with the analysis you made, based on my haplogroups.

Mediterranean: 59%
SW Asian: 20%
N European: 16%
NE Asian: 3%
Subsaharan Africa: 2%

RZA79
17-01-14, 00:42
Interesting point on my wife's mtdna!

What do you postulate regarding your T1a1a3? What region of Italy are you from? Beautiful country by the way.

Sile
17-01-14, 00:56
Interesting point on my wife's mtdna!

What do you postulate regarding your T1a1a3? What region of Italy are you from? Beautiful country by the way.

so, your uncle is T1a1 L162/Page21, L299/PF5675, L453/PF5617, L454, Found in northern Anatolia and Germany. why are you talking about your J marker?

Your uncle would have come from anatolia either via the danube or via the pontic steppes

John123
17-01-14, 01:42
So I have created a new account based on the fact that my previous one has been blocked by one of the more active administrators (probably lebrok or Maciamo) which is quite disappointing and deceiving actually. Sile, I am saying there may have been contact with regular Europeans (Hungarians). Your M33c is difficult to figure out as it is far downstream from M1. I postulate a Phoenician origin for my T1a1a3. This line hails from Caserta region of northern Campania. My other side is from the Pisa region with a very different paternal signature.

Sile
17-01-14, 01:54
So I have created a new account based on the fact that my previous one has been blocked by one of the more active administrators (probably lebrok or Maciamo) which is quite disappointing and deceiving actually. Sile, I am saying there may have been contact with regular Europeans (Hungarians). Your M33c is difficult to figure out as it is far downstream from M1. I postulate a Phoenician origin for my T1a1a3. This line hails from Caserta region of northern Campania. My other side is from the Pisa region with a very different paternal signature.

I agree with a Phoenician origin,

pisans where involved heavily in merchant trade in the levant, engaged in the crusades and had a "warehouse" in pala in constantinople. The genoese basically destroyed the pisan merchants by the 13th century.

you never know , your pisan line could be associated with the ibelins :shocked:
from the film...kingdom of Heaven
The Ibelin family rose from relatively humble origins to become one of the most important noble families in the Crusader states of Jerusalem and Cyprus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Cyprus). The family claimed to be descended from the Le Puiset (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Puiset) viscounts of Chartres (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartres), but this appears to be a later fabrication. They were more probably from Pisa Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy), the name 'Barisan' being found in Tuscany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuscany) and Liguria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liguria) related to Azzopardi family.
They originally took a lot of their people( household) back with them to Italy once their lands in the levant got taken by the saracens

Sile
17-01-14, 01:58
So I have created a new account based on the fact that my previous one has been blocked by one of the more active administrators (probably lebrok or Maciamo) which is quite disappointing and deceiving actually. Sile, I am saying there may have been contact with regular Europeans (Hungarians). Your M33c is difficult to figure out as it is far downstream from M1. I postulate a Phoenician origin for my T1a1a3. This line hails from Caserta region of northern Campania. My other side is from the Pisa region with a very different paternal signature.

what is this M33c? is this your Italian or ?

I found this
M33c seems to be the clade related to Belarus, and Ashkenazi Jews in the Lithuania/Belarus/Russian region.

There is also a mtDNA M* project in Family Tree DNA: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/M%2 ... Haplogroup (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/M%20mtDNA%20Haplogroup)
Background
Family Tree DNA's haplogroup description of M: Haplogroup M cluster has been characterized as generally of east Eurasia—a geographic region that includes south Asia, east Asia, and Australasia.

this talks about M33c in India , but I see no M33c in the tree
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0007447

John123
17-01-14, 02:03
No Sile, my pisan side is I2a3 paternal. Southern italian (south-central) is T1a1a3.

John123
17-01-14, 02:05
M33 belongs to RZA79 not me. Again, I'm typing from an iPad so bear with me it takes a long time to type things out. Also, RZA79's cousin is T-Z10, which I know has both middle eastern and Jewish clusters on ftdna, same for Z709, it is one of the T subclades that is most present in Jews (T-P77).

RZA79
17-01-14, 03:38
Sile: I initially explained my interest in the T1a1 haplogroup despite belonging to J2 and then adamo was nice enough to give me general information on J2, then elaborate on my personal background. I hope you don't mind me going off topic from the thread.

Sile
17-01-14, 03:42
No, my account was blocked. I know because of the "denied access" error code I received. I don't give a rats patoonia who I pissed off, there gonna fix this issue.

ok, i was confused in that I thought you where also RZA79

RZA79
17-01-14, 04:15
Obviously all we can do is speculate, but a Phoenician origin seems the most logical based on history and geography. Have you considered the possibility of descent from Near Eastern POWs or slaves taken to ancient Rome, then later absorbing into the Roman/Campanian general population. Or perhaps descent from expelled 15th century Sicilian (or even Spanish/Portuguese) Jews who became neofiti? I've read that Ferdinand I of Naples protected these Sicilian exiles. Maybe it's just my personal bias :)

John123
17-01-14, 13:45
Sure; it's just like the J2 marker: upon being positive for it, one must check if it is of Jewish origin. But many non-Jewish Cretans, Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis, Iranians, Armenians are also positive for J2. So is my T of Jewish origin? Could be, based on the fact that it is the T marker. But T probably originated 30,000 years ago on the Iranian peninsula. J2 originated between southern turkey and northern Iraq. As for how my particular subclade clusters, I suspect a Phoenician origin as the only other people I know with T-PF7443+ are from Mediterranean Europe (a southern spaniard, a canary islander, a southern Sardinian, me).
These locations were all visited by the Phoenicians of Lebanon. In fact, everywhere where the Phoenicians visited has slightly inflated T frequencies. Also, I am a T1a variant, which could be signal of Neolithic arrival too Europe some 5,000-10,000 years ago; most T1b's though (downstream) are associated with medieval Jews in Europe. I for one, have no known Jewish ancestry and I've tested on ftdna for this. Take P-77 for example; it is very present in mizrahim Jews (Iraqi, Kurdish and Iranian Jews) that never left the Middle East. This could mean the T marker was brought there via the general Canaan/levant region. Within T-P77, according to ftdna, you'll get different clusters made up of Ashkenazi Jews, mizrahim Jews and other non-Jewish populations (Jordanians, Saudis, Kuwaitis and Omanis).

John123
17-01-14, 13:47
Slaves taken to Rome or near eastern POWs are "way out there" suggestions. I would think of it more like my T marker being part of the natural southern italian landscape, having arrived via some Phoenician ancestor to the general region long ago. I highly doubt it has anything to do with Sephardic or Portuguese Jews, who seem to be higher in the younger T1b variants (T2).

RZA79
17-01-14, 19:34
I'm confused with the differing nomenclature between Geno 2.0 and FTDNA. Is T-PF7443 different or more precise than L299? I thought my maternal side was T1a, not T1b?

Sile
17-01-14, 20:00
I'm confused with the differing nomenclature between Geno 2.0 and FTDNA. Is T-PF7443 different or more precise than L299? I thought my maternal side was T1a, not T1b?

You confusing yourself and everybody else

Ydna ( paternal)
T L445, L452, L455/PF5670, L810, M184/Page34/USP9Y+3178, M272/PF5667, Page129
• T1 L206, L490, M193
• T1a M70/Page46/PF5662, Page78
T1a1 L162/Page21, L299/PF5675, L453/PF5617, L454
• T1a1a L208/Page2, L905
• T1a1a3 PF7443, PF7444, PF7445, PF7453, PF7457, PF7458

Above is your uncle's line if he has PF7443.........basically your uncle has one or more markers of every line in his ydna to get to T1a1a3


Do you have also a Maternal T marker which is completely different from the paternal T marker ?......see maternal below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T_%28mtDNA%29

Sile
17-01-14, 20:14
Sure; it's just like the J2 marker: upon being positive for it, one must check if it is of Jewish origin. But many non-Jewish Cretans, Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis, Iranians, Armenians are also positive for J2. So is my T of Jewish origin? Could be, based on the fact that it is the T marker. But T probably originated 30,000 years ago on the Iranian peninsula. J2 originated between southern turkey and northern Iraq. As for how my particular subclade clusters, I suspect a Phoenician origin as the only other people I know with T-PF7443+ are from Mediterranean Europe (a southern spaniard, a canary islander, a southern Sardinian, me).
These locations were all visited by the Phoenicians of Lebanon. In fact, everywhere where the Phoenicians visited has slightly inflated T frequencies. Also, I am a T1a variant, which could be signal of Neolithic arrival too Europe some 5,000-10,000 years ago; most T1b's though (downstream) are associated with medieval Jews in Europe. I for one, have no known Jewish ancestry and I've tested on ftdna for this. Take P-77 for example; it is very present in mizrahim Jews (Iraqi, Kurdish and Iranian Jews) that never left the Middle East. This could mean the T marker was brought there via the general Canaan/levant region. Within T-P77, according to ftdna, you'll get different clusters made up of Ashkenazi Jews, mizrahim Jews and other non-Jewish populations (Jordanians, Saudis, Kuwaitis and Omanis).

Every marker has a small jewish percentage in it, i cannot understand you, that if you say T is 30000 years old, how does it match with jews, when Judaism is only 6000 years old. the numbers do not match. Makes zero sense to me.
Sorry, I believe there is NO such thing as a jewish marker, no such thing as a slavic marker or Germanic marker etc etc

Either your marker was part Phoenician or it went with the Phoenicians.

T1b, which I am.....is stated by genetics as the northern branch of T and my tests reveals this. The lowest part of the world I sit is in chios island or ancient lycians , everything else is north of this line. the amazing thing is that I have less than 1% iberian, zero african, ........basically as per Ftdna 100% European and 99.8% European by 23andme

below are the basic 5 branches of T
3 with T1a and 2 with T1b

T-L208 (T1a1a* on the current ISOGG tree http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html)
T-Z709 (T1a1a1*)
T-P77 (T1a1a1a)
T-P322 (T1a2a)
T-L446 (T1a2b)

John123
17-01-14, 20:58
So then resume to us everything you know about T, I can't seem to find much info on it anywhere. I remain highly unsatisfied with my understanding of my own genetic group.

Sile
17-01-14, 21:25
So then resume to us everything you know about T, I can't seem to find much info on it anywhere. I remain highly unsatisfied with my understanding of my own genetic group.

there are papers to read on the bottom of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184

and
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html

Goga
17-01-14, 21:36
Haplogroup T can be originally from the Persian Gulf before it was flooded 9,500 years ago ! http://historycycles.org/graph/sealevel.jpg http://historycycles.org/graph/persiangulf.gif http://historycycles.org/flood.html

John123
17-01-14, 21:47
I've glanced both those documents hundreds of times Sile.

Sile
17-01-14, 22:30
I've glanced both those documents hundreds of times Sile.

My theory is that T originated between and including Zargos mountains to the caspian sea SE area ( including modern Tehran)........which is why I associated the marker with more modern tribes of Bactrian and Parthian

John123
17-01-14, 23:39
Do you know of any particular studies mentioning age-diversity of T in Iran or the levant? These two regions show the oldest T diversity as compared to younger Egyptian and Turkish samples but the youngest are on the Arabian peninsula, Horn of Africa and Europe if I'm not mistaken. In other words, is there a direct proof that T is oldest on he Iranian peninsula?

Sile
18-01-14, 00:32
Do you know of any particular studies mentioning age-diversity of T in Iran or the levant? These two regions show the oldest T diversity as compared to younger Egyptian and Turkish samples but the youngest are on the Arabian peninsula, Horn of Africa and Europe if I'm not mistaken. In other words, is there a direct proof that T is oldest on he Iranian peninsula?

HOW MANY TIMES ARE YOU GOING TO ASK ME THE SAME QUESTIONS?

will you stop if i agree with your philosophy ?

John123
18-01-14, 00:50
I asked if you knew of any direct sources claiming that T has officially "the oldest" haplotypes on the Iranian peninsula. What the **** did you not understand?

Sile
18-01-14, 01:07
Do you know of any particular studies mentioning age-diversity of T in Iran or the levant? These two regions show the oldest T diversity as compared to younger Egyptian and Turkish samples but the youngest are on the Arabian peninsula, Horn of Africa and Europe if I'm not mistaken. In other words, is there a direct proof that T is oldest on he Iranian peninsula?

No, you tell me

John123
18-01-14, 01:26
I'm always telling everyone; and then getting banned for it, sorry for my completely unprofessional attitude, don't answer that as it embarrasses me completely to lose my composure there.

RZA79
18-01-14, 06:10
Sile: Yes I'm confusing me, but no need to spew insults about me confusing everybody else. I'm brand new to this site and the field itself. Please be patient with me, but if I'm annoying you, you are free to ignore my posts.

Despite being an amateur, I do know that I do not have any mtdna T markers and have never brought this up. When I said T on my maternal side, I meant all the males on my mother's side (uncles, cousins, etc) have T Y-DNA.

I initially thought Adamo/John123 had L299 just like my family, hence my "out there" theories.

RZA79
18-01-14, 06:21
Sile: I'm not saying T matches solely with Jews at all! Of course it's older than the 3000+ years of Jewish civilization. I think when you said 6000 years you're confusing things with the Judeo-Christian age of the Earth, according to literal interpretations of the Bible. I'm also not saying that Adamo has a "Jewish" marker, but simply that besides the conventional wisdom of a Phoenician origin to his specific family history, it's possible that his relatively recent forefathers could potentially have reached southern Italy by other means, including a Jewish background of Judean slaves brought to Rome ~2000 years ago (I believe hundreds of thousands came to Rome and most blended into the population) following the destruction of the Second Temple or Sicilian Jews in the 15th century. It could even be from Saracen pirates, it's anyone's guess.

John123
18-01-14, 12:37
Highly doubt it; I've tested for Jewish ancestry via ftdna recently and I have none. Saracens (Arabs) seems more likely to me. If a southern italian is positive for J2, does that make him Jewish? No, it likely makes him Ancient Greek, something that is very common in the southern half of the peninsula. T wasn't brought by Greeks that's for sure, it has a middle eastern source. Anything is possible, but I put my $ on a Phoenician non-Jewish origin.

John123
18-01-14, 23:54
My family name is Latinized (standard italian) whereas most members of Italo-Jewish communities have retained their Jewish surnames or culture/practices/beliefs. My family traces to the same village in Italy for some 800 years at the least on the paternal side, and the record only runs out because of distance from present times. Thus I suspect them having been there for over 1000+ years, effectively ruling out medieval Jews or Judeo-Sicilian theories. I have tested for Jewish ancestry and have something like 1% of it, which I personally won't take as being a significant sign of Jewish ancestry. Due to these factors, notably a very long presence of my ancestors on the italian peninsula, I will shoot for either a Phoenician origin or simply a product of Neolithic migrations towards southern italy. With a fully italian name that sounds quasi French (most italian names do) and no recent history of Jewish relation, I feel my ancestors were present on the italian peninsula long enough to have been heavily assimilated and latinized, probably arriving some 3,000-5,000 years ago to southern italy.

Sile
19-01-14, 01:46
My family name is Latinized (standard italian) whereas most members of Italo-Jewish communities have retained their Jewish surnames or culture/practices/beliefs. My family traces to the same village in Italy for some 800 years at the least on the paternal side, and the record only runs out because of distance from present times. Thus I suspect them having been there for over 1000+ years, effectively ruling out medieval Jews or Judeo-Sicilian theories. I have tested for Jewish ancestry and have something like 1% of it, which I personally won't take as being a significant sign of Jewish ancestry. Due to these factors, notably a very long presence of my ancestors on the italian peninsula, I will shoot for either a Phoenician origin or simply a product of Neolithic migrations towards southern italy. With a fully italian name that sounds quasi French (most italian names do) and no recent history of Jewish relation, I feel my ancestors were present on the italian peninsula long enough to have been heavily assimilated and latinized, probably arriving some 3,000-5,000 years ago to southern italy.

The italian government "forced" names to be italianized, up until mussolini times. They are just racists.
One of my relative was documented in 1780 as Pelligrin .........forced name change to Pelligrini ........and now revert back a decade ago ( after much italian government delays ) back to original.
you see more J and K in surnames when before where forced into i and ch

Test with Doug how long your marker has been in Europe, then you can make that 3000 year claim

John123
19-01-14, 03:01
That's cool. How can I contact "Dougie?" XD

Sile
19-01-14, 04:16
That's cool. How can I contact "Dougie?" XD

http://www.isogg.org/wiki/McDonald%27s_BGA_project

When you write to him , you need to tell him your current location in the world ( where you live) and not where you came from

RZA79
19-01-14, 06:02
Thanks for explaining, you make a convincing case. I also falsely thought you had the same markers as my relatives, hence my theories.

John123
19-01-14, 06:35
No problem : )

Sile
09-05-14, 09:36
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/mytree_zps0159ad7b.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/mytree_zps0159ad7b.jpg.html)

my ancient tree


green boxes are my positive SNPs

Sile
16-05-14, 07:45
From my post #239...........the only one positive SNP which fundora has and I do not have is L455/PF5670 ( which is in the T bracket of SNP's )

The ftdna tree is corrupted in this point in time

The following Tree from April 2014 is the only confirmed tree............Error examples, CTS11984 appears in the T1a1 group ?, Pages00113 is a L marker, L25 is a J marker ..........and other errors



T1a2..........L131.......[19/19] (between T1a2 and T1a2b–1:CTS2157[3/3],CTS11796[3/3],CTS12108[3/3])

from Germany
from East England
from Mordovia
from France
.................................................. .....................

T1a2a .........P322[2/2],P328[1/1]

from Norway
from Netherlands
.............................
T1a2b...........L446[10/10]

from Germany
from Italy
from south England
from Czech
................................
T1a2b–1..............PAGES00011[1/1]

.............................
T1a2b-2................L1322/CTS549/PF5598


so, Pages00011 and L1322 should be the next to step further down from the L446 branch

Sile
13-07-14, 08:22
latest numbers for kurds and assyrians for T and others

N=157 N=126
KRD ASY
7% --25% -- R1b
30% --13% -- J2
15% -- 2% -- R1a
5% -- 14% -- T
16%-- 8% -- E
11% -- 17% -- J1
0%-- 4% -- Q1b
3%-- 1% -- L
3% --1% -- I
7% --9% -- G
0% --2% -- F
3% -- 4% -- R2
1% -- 0% -- H
1% -- 0% -- R1

Giacomo
19-09-14, 15:47
I'm italian from campania province southern Italy. I also have haplogroup t (M70) lineage and my sub-group is L299.
1.An italian man from Rofrano city, Salerno , campania , southern Italy
2. An Assyrian Iraqi man from Nineveh , Iraq 3. A Jew from Poland. 4. A man from Lucca, Italy. 5. Ashkenazi Jew from Germany/Austria. 6. A second polish Jew. 7. Man from Urmia , Iran ( according to personal family stories he may be a Kurdish Jew). 8. An American man who's ancestors came from England for as many generations as he can remember. 9. 10. Two men from Peru and El Salvador that believe they have Sephardic Jewish roots. 11. Me. 12. You. So there you have it, 12 individuals from various different ethnic origins that are haplogroup T (M70) positive

Hello Adamo, I am the son of that man from Lucca. I suggest that this subclade, since it is found also in Anatolia, and we are from Tuscany and Campania, is connected also with the Etruscans coming from Anatolia and inhabiting Tuscany and Campania (including the region of Rofrano, Cilento, mentioned by the Italian-American of the Genographic). Which is exactly your area of origin in Campania?

Giacomo
19-09-14, 15:56
I add a quotation from an abstract citing K2-M70 as an Etruscan haplogroup found in Tuscany and Anatolia:

A. Piazza, N. Cerutti et al : Origin of the Etruscans: novel clues from the Y chromosome lineages.
Quote:


...Here we show the genetic relationships of modern Etrurians, who mostly settled in Tuscany, with other Italian, Near Eastern and Aegean peoples by comparing the Y-chromosome DNA variation in 1,264 unrelated healthy males from: Tuscany-Italy (n=263), North Italy (n=306), South Balkans (n=359), Lemnos island (n=60), Sicily and Sardinia (n=276). The Tuscany samples were collected in Volterra (n=116), Murlo (n=86) and Casentino Valley (n=61). We found traces of recent Near Eastern gene flow still present in Tuscany, especially in the archaeologically important village of Murlo. The samples from Tuscany show eastern haplogroups E3b1-M78, G2*- P15, J2a1b*-M67 and K2-M70 with frequencies very similar to thoseobserved in Turkey and surrounding areas, but significantly different from those of neighbouring Italian regions. The microsatellite haplotypes associated to these haplogroups allow inference of ancestor lineages for Etruria and Near East whose time to the most recent common ancestors is relatively recent (about 3,500 years BP) and supports a possible non autochthonous post-Neolithic signal associated with the Etruscans.




European Journal of Human Genetics, vol. 15 supp. 1 June 2007, session C.17, pg. 19.

isatis
28-01-15, 02:09
Ciao guys, let me tell you, that I got a Y DNA test few years ago and I am T1a M70 (via ftdna). My father line is from Yazd (Iran) and 200 years ago my family were Zoroastrians. So you have to know that since Islam came to Iran, Zoroastrians only marriage with Zoroastrians. Also was Yazd a not important city to conquer for enemies because it's only desert. And Yazd was also a Diaspora point for all religions (sp. Jews) (google Moshee Katzav) a lot of politican of Israel are coming from Iran/Yazd. So actually this area looks very original and they people speaking more clean persian than other Iranians. Yazd and north of Kerman are closed together. Actually we have only 3 areas were the old persians resided, Shiraz, Kerman, Yazd. All other provinces of Iran are more meds/parthians/bactrians and so forth......

my opinion:
we have some old culture who can be T like:
-sumerians
-elamites
-jiroft culture
-kulli culture

but you have to know, in the old levante area were Indo-Europeans not semitic people, the people know speaking semitic languages and got probable more semitic race now, but before semitic people came to this area, they were indo-europeans....

only the semitic people came over egypt to israel, all other people were coming over horn of africa/persian gulf
so amorites, philistines, hurrians, mitanni, kizzuwatna, hittites, arzawaians were all indoeuropeans not semitic
especially the western sience says amorites/phonecians are semitic, iranian science they were indoeuropean, but the etymology is indoeuropean!
but also we have a lot of questions, why the fulbes have a lot of T, and why east indians have a lot of T
the semitic people ruled over the levante area, so they got all semitic languages
the old persians (not iranians(after splitting)) were coming from the "hamun lake"
we don't got enough tests from iranians/afghanians/tajiks and so on......we need more tests
where is the connection from fulbes and east indians, where between phonecians and hittites

isatis
29-01-15, 20:29
Ciao guys, let me tell you, that I got a Y DNA test few years ago and I am T1a M70 (via ftdna). My father line is from Yazd (Iran) and 200 years ago my family were Zoroastrians. So you have to know that since Islam came to Iran, Zoroastrians only marriage with Zoroastrians. Also was Yazd a not important city to conquer for enemies because it's only desert. And Yazd was also a Diaspora point for all religions (sp. Jews) (google Moshee Katzav) a lot of politican of Israel are coming from Iran/Yazd. So actually this area looks very original and they people speaking more clean persian than other Iranians. Yazd and north of Kerman are closed together. Actually we have only 3 areas were the old persians resided, Shiraz, Kerman, Yazd. All other provinces of Iran are more meds/parthians/bactrians and so forth......

my opinion:
we have some old culture who can be T like:
-sumerians
-elamites
-jiroft culture
-kulli culture

but you have to know, in the old levante area were Indo-Europeans not semitic people, the people know speaking semitic languages and got probable more semitic race now, but before semitic people came to this area, they were indo-europeans....

only the semitic people came over egypt to israel, all other people were coming over horn of africa/persian gulf
so amorites, philistines, hurrians, mitanni, kizzuwatna, hittites, arzawaians were all indoeuropeans not semitic
especially the western sience says amorites/phonecians are semitic, iranian science they were indoeuropean, but the etymology is indoeuropean!
but also we have a lot of questions, why the fulbes have a lot of T, and why east indians have a lot of T
the semitic people ruled over the levante area, so they got all semitic languages
the old persians (not iranians(after split)) were coming from the "hamun lake"

Sile
02-02-15, 08:40
Ciao guys, let me tell you, that I got a Y DNA test few years ago and I am T1a M70 (via ftdna). My father line is from Yazd (Iran) and 200 years ago my family were Zoroastrians. So you have to know that since Islam came to Iran, Zoroastrians only marriage with Zoroastrians. Also was Yazd a not important city to conquer for enemies because it's only desert. And Yazd was also a Diaspora point for all religions (sp. Jews) (google Moshee Katzav) a lot of politican of Israel are coming from Iran/Yazd. So actually this area looks very original and they people speaking more clean persian than other Iranians. Yazd and north of Kerman are closed together. Actually we have only 3 areas were the old persians resided, Shiraz, Kerman, Yazd. All other provinces of Iran are more meds/parthians/bactrians and so forth......

my opinion:
we have some old culture who can be T like:
-sumerians
-elamites
-jiroft culture
-kulli culture

but you have to know, in the old levante area were Indo-Europeans not semitic people, the people know speaking semitic languages and got probable more semitic race now, but before semitic people came to this area, they were indo-europeans....

only the semitic people came over egypt to israel, all other people were coming over horn of africa/persian gulf
so amorites, philistines, hurrians, mitanni, kizzuwatna, hittites, arzawaians were all indoeuropeans not semitic
especially the western sience says amorites/phonecians are semitic, iranian science they were indoeuropean, but the etymology is indoeuropean!
but also we have a lot of questions, why the fulbes have a lot of T, and why east indians have a lot of T
the semitic people ruled over the levante area, so they got all semitic languages
the old persians (not iranians(after split)) were coming from the "hamun lake"

Hi

I have always suspected Zaroastrians ( the worshippers of fire ) to have something to do with T, but I thought more around the BMAC area or the Ariana area of eastern Persia.

I doubt very much that T was semitic because it would mean that so to must L be semitic ( LT-P326 go hand in hand for many many centuries before they split apart )

Sile
02-02-15, 08:44
There is a little bit of an article of a T1 branch which is the only one to go to egypt from the levant ...see link

http://www.academia.edu/3642572/Unraveling_the_Prehistoric_Ancestry_of_the_present-day_Inhabitants_of_Northeast_Africa._An_Archaeogen etic_Approach_to_Neolithisation

This is the T-L162 line or some prefer the T1-P77 ( not my line )

Caucasus
06-05-18, 08:52
I also found out I belong to T Haplogroup. I was born in Azerbaijan. According to little research I have done, this haplogroup originated in Zagros mountains. Its high incidence among Kurdish Jews, Assyrians, Lurs etc. further strengthens this argument. It is most encountered in communities that have been isolated for centuries from the outside world.
It feels great to know other members belonging to this rare group!

Alpenjager
06-05-18, 16:38
I also found out I belong to T Haplogroup. I was born in Azerbaijan. According to little research I have done, this haplogroup originated in Zagros mountains. Its high incidence among Kurdish Jews, Assyrians, Lurs etc. further strengthens this argument. It is most encountered in communities that have been isolated for centuries from the outside world.
It feels great to know other members belonging to this rare group!

These incidences of T belong to different branches of T, and are due to separated demographic events but have nothing to do with origin. To predict origin is most important the diversity.

You can see this diversity by looking into my phylogenetic tree work here:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Phylogenetic_T-M184_tree.png

Sile
06-05-18, 20:03
Hi

I have always suspected Zaroastrians ( the worshippers of fire ) to have something to do with T, but I thought more around the BMAC area or the Ariana area of eastern Persia.

I doubt very much that T was semitic because it would mean that so to must L be semitic ( LT-P326 go hand in hand for many many centuries before they split apart )

origin of zarostrian is from gonur tepe turkmenistan