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Haganus
12-05-10, 12:31
It is a strange thing that big parts of West-Europa have the haplogroup
R1b. Even in the Iberian Peninsula till 90%!It is thought that the Celtic
tribes brought the haplogroup R1b. It also is present in Ireland,West-France and Iberian Peninsula. So a very big number of Celts must have crossed the Pyrenaes to bring the haplogroup R1b.


I cannot believe it. So about 80% of the Spaniards and Portgueses must have Celts as male ancestors and are related with the red haired Irishmen, Englishmen and faired haired Danes and Dutch. Who can explain me it? And what has happened with the ancient Iberian tribes? They ware warlike and macho men like the Spaniards today. I cannot imagine myself that they accepted the penetrance of Celtic men. Who can prove the penetrance of the Celts in the Iberian Peninsula?

Cambrius (The Red)
12-05-10, 23:03
It is a strange thing that big parts of West-Europa have the haplogroup
R1b. Even in the Iberian Peninsula till 90%!It is thought that the Celtic
tribes brought the haplogroup R1b. It also is present in Ireland,West-France and Iberian Peninsula. So a very big number of Celts must have crossed the Pyrenaes to bring the haplogroup R1b.


I cannot believe it. So about 80% of the Spaniards and Portgueses must have Celts as male ancestors and are related with the red haired Irishmen, Englishmen and faired haired Danes and Dutch. Who can explain me it? And what has happened with the ancient Iberian tribes? They ware warlike and macho men like the Spaniards today. I cannot imagine myself that they accepted the penetrance of Celtic men. Who can prove the penetrance of the Celts in the Iberian Peninsula?

Come now, why should ANY of this surprise you? Iberia had one of the highest levels of Celtic settlement saturation in all of Europe. The evidence is overwhelming... Start with Wikipedia.

Many philologists and other linguists believe that Tartessian (SW Iberia) was the first Celtic language. Celticity may well have originated in the Iberian Peninsula. There is abundant evidence of Celtic circulation between Iberia, the British Isles, Gaul and Central Europe. Read Cunliffe and Koch, among others. The British Isles, much of western Iberia and western France comprise what is known as the Atlantic Celtic lands.

BTW, the average percentage of red hair in Europe is 3%. The highest levels are found in Scotland (~ 6%). Ireland averages ~ 5% and Spain and Portugal about 3% each.

Also, a rather large number of Spaniards and Portuguese are not typically Mediterranean in phenotype - a gross misconception on the part of many people. Rather, a majority, particularly central to north, are Paleo-Atlantid, Nordid-Atlantid or Atlanto-Mediterranean, and similar to other Atlantic Facade populations.

Cambrius (The Red)
12-05-10, 23:08
Oh come now, why should any of this be a surprise to you?

Cambrius (The Red)
12-05-10, 23:14
It is a strange thing that big parts of West-Europa have the haplogroup
R1b. Even in the Iberian Peninsula till 90%!It is thought that the Celtic
tribes brought the haplogroup R1b. It also is present in Ireland,West-France and Iberian Peninsula. So a very big number of Celts must have crossed the Pyrenaes to bring the haplogroup R1b.
I cannot believe it. So about 80% of the Spaniards and Portgueses must have Celts as male ancestors and are related with the red haired Irishmen, Englishmen and faired haired Danes and Dutch. Who can explain me it? And what has happened with the ancient Iberian tribes? They ware warlike and macho men like the Spaniards today. I cannot imagine myself that they accepted the penetrance of Celtic men. Who can prove the penetrance of the Celts in the Iberian Peninsula?

Read some of the latest research for starters:
http://rokus01.wordpress.com

Also, look up Modern Celts, Celtiberians, Gallaecia, Celtic Tribes on Wikipedia

^ lynx ^
13-05-10, 02:18
R1b isn't only "celtic". :rolleyes2:


Oh come now, why should any of this be a surprise to you?

Cambria Red, may I remind you that our friend Haganus is the same guy who refuse to believe in a mongoloid admixture in North-Europe.

Greetings.

Cambrius (The Red)
13-05-10, 02:37
It is a strange thing that big parts of West-Europa have the haplogroup
R1b. Even in the Iberian Peninsula till 90%!It is thought that the Celtic
tribes brought the haplogroup R1b. It also is present in Ireland,West-France and Iberian Peninsula. So a very big number of Celts must have crossed the Pyrenaes to bring the haplogroup R1b.
I cannot believe it. So about 80% of the Spaniards and Portgueses must have Celts as male ancestors and are related with the red haired Irishmen, Englishmen and faired haired Danes and Dutch. Who can explain me it? And what has happened with the ancient Iberian tribes? They ware warlike and macho men like the Spaniards today. I cannot imagine myself that they accepted the penetrance of Celtic men. Who can prove the penetrance of the Celts in the Iberian Peninsula?


It is well known that Iberia had one of the highest levels of Celtic settlement saturation in Europe. The historical and archaeological records are exceedingly clear on this. In fact, there is growing acceptance by many philologists and other linguists that Tartesseian (early SW Iberian language) was the first Celtic language. Moreover, much evidence exists indicating extended circulation among Celtic peoples from Iberia, the British Isles, Gaul and central Europe. See Cunliffe and J. Koch among others.

Cambrius (The Red)
13-05-10, 02:38
R1b isn't only "celtic". :rolleyes2:



Cambria Red, may I remind you that our friend Haganus is the same guy who refuse to believe in a mongoloid admixture in North-Europe.

Greetings.

Oh yes, of course, that explains it all... :laughing::laughing::laughing:

Wilhelm
13-05-10, 03:25
It is a strange thing that big parts of West-Europa have the haplogroup
R1b. Even in the Iberian Peninsula till 90%!It is thought that the Celtic
tribes brought the haplogroup R1b. It also is present in Ireland,West-France and Iberian Peninsula. So a very big number of Celts must have crossed the Pyrenaes to bring the haplogroup R1b.
Why it is strange ? LOL..


I cannot believe it. So about 80% of the Spaniards and Portgueses must have Celts as male ancestors and are related with the red haired Irishmen, Englishmen and faired haired Danes and Dutch.Actually the fair hair in England or Holland comes mainly from the Germanic tribes, but the Celts were mostly dark-haired Central europeans


Who can explain me it? And what has happened with the ancient Iberian tribes? They ware warlike and macho men like the Spaniards today. They mixed the local Iberians. And what do you mean by "warlike like spaniards today" ??


I cannot imagine myself that they accepted the penetrance of Celtic men. Who can prove the penetrance of the Celts in the Iberian Peninsula? Actually Iberia had probably the highest Celtic settlement saturation of all Western Europe, based on the archeological sites, and linguistics. You can start by reading some history...

Cambrius (The Red)
13-05-10, 04:45
It is a strange thing that big parts of West-Europa have the haplogroup
R1b. Even in the Iberian Peninsula till 90%!It is thought that the Celtic
tribes brought the haplogroup R1b. It also is present in Ireland,West-France and Iberian Peninsula. So a very big number of Celts must have crossed the Pyrenaes to bring the haplogroup R1b.


I cannot believe it. So about 80% of the Spaniards and Portgueses must have Celts as male ancestors and are related with the red haired Irishmen, Englishmen and faired haired Danes and Dutch. Who can explain me it? And what has happened with the ancient Iberian tribes? They ware warlike and macho men like the Spaniards today. I cannot imagine myself that they accepted the penetrance of Celtic men. Who can prove the penetrance of the Celts in the Iberian Peninsula?

Read Cunliffe, J Koch, Renfrew and others. The Celts may well have originated in SW Iberia (the Tartessians). Do some serious research. Enlighten yourself.

Cambrius (The Red)
13-05-10, 05:16
It is a strange thing that big parts of West-Europa have the haplogroup
R1b. Even in the Iberian Peninsula till 90%!It is thought that the Celtic
tribes brought the haplogroup R1b. It also is present in Ireland,West-France and Iberian Peninsula. So a very big number of Celts must have crossed the Pyrenaes to bring the haplogroup R1b.
I cannot believe it. So about 80% of the Spaniards and Portgueses must have Celts as male ancestors and are related with the red haired Irishmen, Englishmen and faired haired Danes and Dutch. Who can explain me it? And what has happened with the ancient Iberian tribes? They ware warlike and macho men like the Spaniards today. I cannot imagine myself that they accepted the penetrance of Celtic men. Who can prove the penetrance of the Celts in the Iberian Peninsula?

Here are a few links to make things a bit clearer for you:
http://rokus01.wordpress.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Celtic_tribes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts_(modern)

To access directly the last link first google "Modern Celts WIKI".

The majority of Iberians (Spaniards and Portuguese) descend from Celts. Iberians are, in the main, Atlantic Celts.

Sprinkles
13-05-10, 05:50
R1b must have migrated from Nothern Africa through Spain.

Neander
13-05-10, 10:05
The trooth is that we have two languages of R1b: Basque and Celtic.

Who is original?

One must have been assimlated to other.

The first scenario, basque became aryanized and became celts, and in second scenario celts became basque.

Neander
13-05-10, 10:07
As for the "celts", you must remember that higher density of "celtic" colonies in Spain is in the west where also is higher density of E-V13 balkanic haplogroup.

Cambrius (The Red)
13-05-10, 14:00
As for the "celts", you must remember that higher density of "celtic" colonies in Spain is in the west where also is higher density of E-V13 balkanic haplogroup.

Originally, the most dense Celtic settlement occurred in central Iberia, not in the western end. Celticity in the west and north-west of the Peninsula was eventually influenced by migrations from Gaul, central Iberia and the Alpine regions.

Of course, there was substantial circulation between Celtic peoples in the Atlantic Facade - Gaul, Iberia, Armorica, British Isles. From south to north and north to south. A good example: archaeologists have discovered numerous sites in Ireland containing ancient Iberian artifacts.

I gather you have not reviewed recent research material pointing to Tartessos as a core point for Celticity.

Read Cunliffe, Koch, Renfrew...

Wilhelm
13-05-10, 14:44
R1b must have migrated from Nothern Africa through Spain.
Is this supposed to be a joke ?

Wilhelm
13-05-10, 14:46
As for the "celts", you must remember that higher density of "celtic" colonies in Spain is in the west where also is higher density of E-V13 balkanic haplogroup.
No, the higher density of Celtic settlement was in central Spain, in Castilla, but I fail to see what has E-V13 anythig to do with this...Even in western Iberia the E-V13 is very low 2-4%

Cambrius (The Red)
13-05-10, 15:36
As for the "celts", you must remember that higher density of "celtic" colonies in Spain is in the west where also is higher density of E-V13 balkanic haplogroup.

Excuse me, where are you getting this nonsense from?

Sprinkles
13-05-10, 16:52
Considering, if factual, that an Egyptian mummy was R1b - then no, i don't consider it a joke.

Cambrius (The Red)
13-05-10, 17:06
Considering, if factual, that an Egyptian mummy was R1b - then no, i don't consider it a joke.

Things are hardly that simple...

The R1b subclades recorded outside Europe are entirely different. Example: there are regions of the Cameroon with very high frequencies of R1b, but the subclades have no relation to those found in Europe.

The so-called R1b "Celtic substratum subclade" common in Portugal and Spain is P312, with R-L21 being a major offshoot (found more in the British Isles).

Wilhelm
13-05-10, 17:14
Considering, if factual, that an Egyptian mummy was R1b - then no, i don't consider it a joke.
What a simple mind that you are. The R1b found in Iberia is the same branch as in all Western Europe (M269) , and particuarly the Celtic P312 . The R1b in Egypt is found at 2%, and most of it is a different branch than the European, it is the M18 branch. The european R1b in Egypt (practically non-existant) came from the Greek and Roman colonizers, or some indo-europeans. R1b is indo-european not North Africa.

Sprinkles
13-05-10, 17:23
Egyptian mummies predate the Greeks. Can you read?

Parts of Eastern Europe lack R1b completely. I would believe a dual migration of R1b from Anatolia through the Caucuses, as well from Northern Africa, through the Iberian Peninsula. As for the statement, which you appear to make with hostility, that Iberian and English R1b is the same - we agree upon. The consideration should be made as to the origin of the haplogroup. It's known that Northern Africa was light skinned, and and only became mixed with slaves when Egyptian civilization collapsed.

Wilhelm
13-05-10, 17:41
Egyptian mummies predate the Greeks. Can you read?
The R1b found in mummies can also be indo-european waves, can you read ?



Parts of Eastern Europe lack R1b completely. I would believe a dual migration of R1b from Anatolia through the Caucuses, as well from Northern Africa, through the Iberian Peninsula. That's a funny theory, considering North Africa has even less R1b than Eastern Europe, which by the way it's true that it has low R1b, but it is not lacking

^ lynx ^
13-05-10, 17:42
R1b is indo-european not North Africa.

And ancient berbers had also indo-europeans roots, Wilhelm. Sprinkles' point is actually valid though I don't agree with it.

Wilhelm
13-05-10, 17:53
And ancient berbers had also indo-europeans roots, Wilhelm. Sprinkles' point is actually valid though I don't agree with it.
He is basically saying that all Western Europe are descendants of North Africans, because some mummies were R1b. Wouldn't make more sene if we turn it around, and say the mummy was actually of indo-european descend ? :confused2:
btw, Berbers are mostly E-M81, not R1b.

Wilhelm
13-05-10, 18:22
The trooth is that we have two languages of R1b: Basque and Celtic.

Who is original?

One must have been assimlated to other.

The first scenario, basque became aryanized and became celts, and in second scenario celts became basque.
Wrong. Basque is a pre-indoeuropean language. The R1b people spoke indo-european languages who split into the Germanic, Celtic, Latin languages

Haganus
13-05-10, 22:14
The Celtic Culture and languages arose about 1000 BC as the Latene
Culture in Northeast-France, Southern Germany and Switserland-Austria.
I suppose that the earliest Celts arrived in the Iberian Peninsula about
500 BC. Generally they were blond/red haired with blue eyes like the
Germanic tribes. Read the classic authors. They became much darker by
intermingling with the Alpines and Mediterraneans.

I cannot believe that only the Celts brought the R1b. It is an unbelievable
thing that the darkhaired mediterranean Spaniard is related the British,
Dutch and Danish man and have a commun male ancestor R1 b.

About the Celtic tribes: they lived afterwards in France (Gaule) but never
in the norhern areas like Belgium and Netherlands. Celtic tribes have been
restricted to the Latene and Hallstat Culture.

Wilhelm
13-05-10, 22:29
The Celtic Culture and languages arose about 1000 BC as the Latene
Culture in Northeast-France, Southern Germany and Switserland-Austria.
I suppose that the earliest Celts arrived in the Iberian Peninsula about
500 BC. Generally they were blond/red haired with blue eyes like the
Germanic tribes. Read the classic authors. They became much darker by
intermingling with the Alpines and Mediterraneans.
Well that's not quite true. Actually it is the germanic tribes who were blonde, not as much with the Celts. Read some scientists authors like Oppenheimer who believe Celts were dark-haired, atlanto-alpine-mediterranean, also see you can see the Lindow man reconstruction :

http://www.white-history.com/hwr14_files/iaman.jpeg



I cannot believe that only the Celts brought the R1b. It is an unbelievable
thing that the darkhaired mediterranean Spaniard is related the British,
Dutch and Danish man and have a commun male ancestor R1 b.
Why you cannot believe it ?? The R1b in Spain is the same branch (M269-P312) as the found in the rest of Western europeans. And not only are we related by R1b, but also by the maternal H1, H3, V



About the Celtic tribes: they lived afterwards in France (Gaule) but never
in the norhern areas like Belgium and Netherlands. Celtic tribes have been
restricted to the Latene and Hallstat Culture.Well That's not true. The archeological evidences, linguistic evidences are overwhelimng. This is the expansion of the LaTene and Hallstat culture :

http://www.gk.ro/sarmizegetusa/invaziile/celtii/celtii.jpg




http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Hallstatt_LaTene.png




http://www.gk.ro/sarmizegetusa/invaziile/celtii/migratia%20celtilor.gif

^ lynx ^
13-05-10, 23:00
You're perfectly free to refuse to believe in all historical and genetic researches about Iberia, Haganus.

I will not argue with someone whose best argument is that celtics could have never invaded Iberia because the ancient iberian tribes were "warlike and macho-men like the Spaniards today".

Haganus
14-05-10, 00:16
Many thanks for your information. But why did the R1b Celts have dark
hair and dark eyes? And the fair haired Dutch and Danes have the haplogroup
R1b too. Please explain how it is possible. Celts did never go to north
of the Netherlands, north Germany and Denmark. It is thought that R1a
caused the blond hair. But why did the haplogroup I not cause the fair hair?
The region where the haplogroup I is the most numerous is exactly the
homeland of the ancient Germanic tribes, the so called Northern Bronze Culture.

But the ancient Iberians strenghten the dark haired element of the Celts.
Till the Roman era Iberian languages were spoken in Spain (for example
the words: perro-dog, burro-donkey). And Herodotus described the Celts
who lived in south Germany and Austria as fair haired.

Cambrius (The Red)
14-05-10, 00:21
The Celtic Culture and languages arose about 1000 BC as the Latene
Culture in Northeast-France, Southern Germany and Switserland-Austria.
I suppose that the earliest Celts arrived in the Iberian Peninsula about
500 BC. Generally they were blond/red haired with blue eyes like the
Germanic tribes. Read the classic authors. They became much darker by
intermingling with the Alpines and Mediterraneans.

I cannot believe that only the Celts brought the R1b. It is an unbelievable
thing that the darkhaired mediterranean Spaniard is related the British,
Dutch and Danish man and have a commun male ancestor R1 b.

About the Celtic tribes: they lived afterwards in France (Gaule) but never
in the norhern areas like Belgium and Netherlands. Celtic tribes have been
restricted to the Latene and Hallstat Culture.

For heavens sake "Celtic" is primarily a cultural category. Moreover, Celticity, given the mounting scientific evidence, could well have risen first in SW Iberia. You are completely clueless...:laughing: You apparently don't believe in a lot of things that have long been proven.

Again - since you seem to ignore basic information that doesn't correlate with your highly incorrect notions of certain ethnicities - the majority of Spaniards (and Portuguese) are ATLANTIC PEOPLE WITH PALEO-ATLANTID, NORDID ATLANTID AND ATLANTO-MEDITERRANEAN PHENOTYPES. More traditional Mediterranean (people from the eastern Mediterranean) types - in Iberia, semi-Eastern Mediterranean actually - are found essentially in the south and south-east of the Peninsula. Come now, let's start dealing with reality...

Speaking of classic historians, whose writings I hardly trust very much, Herodotus identified the Celts as peoples occupying south-west Iberia.

Wilhelm
14-05-10, 00:24
Many thanks for your information. But why did the R1b Celts have dark
hair and dark eyes? And the fair haired Dutch and Danes have the haplogroup
R1b too. Please explain how it is possible. Celts did never go to north
of the Netherlands, north Germany and Denmark.
The germanics and celts are two different branches of R1b-M269. The germanics (Dutch, Danes, etc) have the U106 branch, while the Celtic branch is the P312/S116.


But the ancient Iberians strenghten the dark haired element of the Celts.
Till the Roman era Iberian languages were spoken in Spain (for example
the words: perro-dog, burro-donkey). And Herodotus described the Celts
who lived in south Germany and Austria as fair haired.No. Till the Roman era, Celtic languages were spoken in 3/4 of the Iberian Peninsula (Lusitanian, Tartassian, Celtiberian, etc) and Iberian languages in the East

Haganus
14-05-10, 00:26
Please which title is Oppenheimer's book in which he wrote that the Celts were dark
haired? In advance many thanks for your information.

Wilhelm
14-05-10, 00:48
Please which title is Oppenheimer's book in which he wrote that the Celts were dark
haired? In advance many thanks for your information.
In his book "The Origins of the British - A Genetic Detective Story. 2006

There are other authors also such Bryan Sykes, Barry Cunliffe, John Collins, etc. And also :

Saxon Etheldreda's 'Liber Eliensis' documents the Fenland tribe of the Girvii (Gywre), who are cited elsewhere as being an independent people with dark hair and their own (Brythonic) language.

Cambrius (The Red)
14-05-10, 01:30
Please which title is Oppenheimer's book in which he wrote that the Celts were dark
haired? In advance many thanks for your information.

You may also wish to read J. Koch's latest book: Tartessian: Celtic from the South-west at the Dawn of History.

^ lynx ^
14-05-10, 03:08
More traditional Mediterranean (people from the eastern Mediterranean) types - in Iberia, semi-Eastern Mediterranean actually - are found essentially in the south and south-east of the Peninsula

"eastern mediterranean" haplogroups peak in the south-west of the Peninsula, actually.

http://australianheritage.org/Iberia_YHaplogroups_20p7j8l.jpg

^ lynx ^
14-05-10, 03:37
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2054/2369492477_82f59a50d3_o.png
Balanovsky et al (2008). Distribution of Y Chromosomal Haplogroups R1a, R1b, N3, and N2 in Europe.


Population grouping. Most of populations with sample size less than 40 were omitted or pooled. Data on the same group from the different
sources with the sample sizes greater than 40 were pooled when exact localities were not specified in all sources. The map scales are
different for frequent (R1a, R1b, and N3, 10% scale step) and less frequent haplogroups (the other five, 5% step); for all maps, the first
interval indicates virtual absence (less than 1%). The bar graph above the scale shows the portion of the total area covered by the
respective scale interval. Abbreviations in the statistical legend indicate the following: K, number of the studied populations; n, number
of samples in K populations; and MIN, MEAN, and MAX, the minimal, mean and maximum frequencies on the map.

Cambrius (The Red)
14-05-10, 04:23
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2054/2369492477_82f59a50d3_o.png
Balanovsky et al (2008). Distribution of Y Chromosomal Haplogroups R1a, R1b, N3, and N2 in Europe.


Population grouping. Most of populations with sample size less than 40 were omitted or pooled. Data on the same group from the different
sources with the sample sizes greater than 40 were pooled when exact localities were not specified in all sources. The map scales are
different for frequent (R1a, R1b, and N3, 10% scale step) and less frequent haplogroups (the other five, 5% step); for all maps, the first
interval indicates virtual absence (less than 1%). The bar graph above the scale shows the portion of the total area covered by the
respective scale interval. Abbreviations in the statistical legend indicate the following: K, number of the studied populations; n, number
of samples in K populations; and MIN, MEAN, and MAX, the minimal, mean and maximum frequencies on the map.

I did say south (all south) and south-east but was referring to phenotypes.

Cambrius (The Red)
14-05-10, 05:16
^Lynx^:

Do you have a direct link to the Balanovsky study? I got only a partial article by Wiik when I googled.

Cambrius (The Red)
14-05-10, 05:19
You're perfectly free to refuse to believe in all historical and genetic researches about Iberia, Haganus.
I will not argue with someone whose best argument is that celtics could have never invaded Iberia because the ancient iberian tribes were "warlike and macho-men like the Spaniards today".
We all know that Spaniards (all Iberians) are a bunch of Neanderthals...such animals. :laughing::laughing:

^ lynx ^
14-05-10, 14:13
^Lynx^:

Do you have a direct link to the Balanovsky study? I got only a partial article by Wiik when I googled.

Sorry Cambria, I've tried to found the complete study as well but no results. I get the map above from flickr.com.

Greetings.

Wilhelm
14-05-10, 14:31
this is the entire study :

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MImg&_imagekey=B8JDD-4RHHD95-12-W&_cdi=43612&_user=10&_pii=S0002929707000250&_orig=search&_coverDate=01%2F10%2F2008&_sk=999179998&view=c&wchp=dGLbVlb-zSkzk&md5=e6eb2e2a46d66d663121d61d6557df3a&ie=/sdarticle.pdf

Segia
14-05-10, 15:13
Haplogroups don't equate ethnolinguistic genesis. R1b is not necessary IE or others (basque-iberian....), it's only mutations in the Y-chromosome. People interbreed and we don't know which was the ethnolinguistic adscription of its first carrier when the mutation took place. Let's say the same haplogroup can correspond to diverse linguistic strata from the "very first" (some generations of men moving from here to there, mixing with other human populations, converging and diverging lanuages....)

Cambrius (The Red)
14-05-10, 15:16
this is the entire study :
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MImg&_imagekey=B8JDD-4RHHD95-12-W&_cdi=43612&_user=10&_pii=S0002929707000250&_orig=search&_coverDate=01%2F10%2F2008&_sk=999179998&view=c&wchp=dGLbVlb-zSkzk&md5=e6eb2e2a46d66d663121d61d6557df3a&ie=/sdarticle.pdf
Thanks much.

^ lynx ^
14-05-10, 15:42
Thanks Wilhelm.


I did say south (all south) and south-east but was referring to phenotypes. Well, we're still in disagreement.

Greetings.

Cambrius (The Red)
15-05-10, 17:52
Tartessian, the first Celtic language:


http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Research/ODonnell.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessian_language

Haganus
16-05-10, 22:45
Interesting details about the Celts in Spain. I read that the Celts were
the first immigrants in the Iberian Peninsula (about 500 BC). But which
kind of tribes did live before the Celts's arrival? Iberian tribes?

Did Celtic tribes invade Belgium, Netherlands and north of Germany?
Even in Belgium the presence of the Celts is doubtful. Who were the Belgae?
Germanic tribes with Celtic names and who spoke a Celtic language
like the Germans and Russian spoke in the 18e century French?

Wilhelm
16-05-10, 23:53
Tartessian, the first Celtic language:


http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Research/ODonnell.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessian_language
And John Koch :

http://ifc.dpz.es/recursos/publicaciones/29/54/26koch.pdf

Cambrius (The Red)
17-05-10, 02:15
Interesting details about the Celts in Spain. I read that the Celts were
the first immigrants in the Iberian Peninsula (about 500 BC). But which
kind of tribes did live before the Celts's arrival? Iberian tribes?

Did Celtic tribes invade Belgium, Netherlands and north of Germany?
Even in Belgium the presence of the Celts is doubtful. Who were the Belgae?
Germanic tribes with Celtic names and who spoke a Celtic language
like the Germans and Russian spoke in the 18e century French?

The Tartessians of south-west Iberia may have been the FIRST Celts. Read the links Wilhelm and I posted above.

The growing consensus is that Celticity did not originate in Central Europe. Growing evidence indicates a Bronze Age Atlantic Facade origin.

secherbernard
17-05-10, 10:43
The Tartessians of south-west Iberia may have been the FIRST Celts. Read the links Wilhelm and I posted above.

The growing consensus is that Celticity did not originate in Central Europe. Growing evidence indicates a Bronze Age Atlantic Facade origin.
Some archeologists think that first celts arrived with Bell Beaker in third millenium BCE in Iberia Peninsula. From here they spread on all Atlantic Facade, then in North Alps.
Only in Iron Ages, contacts between celts of North Alps and Greeks and Etruscans give the Hallstatt culture.

Cambrius (The Red)
17-05-10, 14:06
Some archeologists think that first celts arrived with Bell Beaker in third millenium BCE in Iberia Peninsula. From here they spread on all Atlantic Facade, then in North Alps.
Only in Iron Ages, contacts between celts of North Alps and Greeks and Etruscans give the Hallstatt culture.

Yes, Bell Beaker first appeared in southern Portugal.

Cambrius (The Red)
17-05-10, 14:40
And John Koch :

http://ifc.dpz.es/recursos/publicaciones/29/54/26koch.pdf

Also, Cunliffe, Renfrew and any number of others...

Cambrius (The Red)
17-05-10, 15:41
Recent material on Atlantic Celtic origins:


http://rokus01.wordpress.com/

Wilhelm
17-05-10, 15:48
Recent material on Atlantic Celtic origins:


http://rokus01.wordpress.com/
Thanks Cambria.

Lorrio and Zapatero about the Celts in Iberia :

http://www4.uwm.edu/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol6/6_4/lorrio_zapatero_6_4.pdf

Cambrius (The Red)
17-05-10, 16:11
Thanks Cambria.

Lorrio and Zapatero about the Celts in Iberia :

http://www4.uwm.edu/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol6/6_4/lorrio_zapatero_6_4.pdf

Thanks. The University of Wisconsin has published several excellent Iberian Celtic studies.

Cunliffe and Koch's ongoing U. Wales project may radically transform notions of Celticity, shifting origins and expansion to the Atlantic Facade. It is becoming increasingly clear that Celticity originated from Bell Beaker culture in SW Iberia.

Genetically, it seems that P312 is the "mother" Celtic subclade, found predominantly in the Atlantic Facade, Germany and some Alpine regions. The latest research on P312 should reveal new alleles, shedding additional light on Celtic circulation patterns between the Atlantic, Gaul and central European areas.

Haganus
19-05-10, 16:12
Two days ago I read the message on rokus01worldpress. I understand
that the Celtic influence was slight in the Netherlands. Who can give more
information about the so-called Northwest Block?

The real Celtic tribes lived south of the Canche and Marne. Maybe the
Belgae were not a real Celtic or Germanic tribe. But where did the real
Germanic speaking people live before the Romans's arrival?

It strikes me that it always is assumed that the Cis Rhenani came from the
east side of the Rhine. But why not from the north of Rhine? Tacitus wrote
that the first Germanic speaking tribe, who invaded Belgium, were the Tungri.They established themselves in the Belgian place of Tongeren. But is it known that in the Dutch province of Gelderland (region Veluwe) there exist a village called Tongeren. And is there any relation between the Belgian town Leuven and the village Leuvenum in the region of Veluwe?

I am very interested to know much more about the arrival of the
Germanic tribes in the Netherlands. Was there also a kind of relation
with the Swedish and Norwegian tribes? When did the Germanic speaking
tribes arrive in Scandinavia? Before them did there Sami tribes live?

Iacetanian
22-05-10, 19:52
The Celtic Culture and languages arose about 1000 BC as the Latene Culture in Northeast-France, Southern Germany and Switserland-Austria.I've never read of traces of any Celtic language having ever been found in Southern German, Austria or Switzerland.


I suppose that the earliest Celts arrived in the Iberian Peninsula about 500 BC.A theory is that the Celts might have expand from the Iberian Peninsula. The expansion of the Celts from La Tene is an idea proposed in the nineteenth century, with little evidence, but which it has been assumed as right until recently, for the lack of other proposals.


Generally they were blond/red haired with blue eyes like the Germanic tribes. Read the classic authors. They became much darker by intermingling with the Alpines and Mediterraneans."blond" is a trait that has highest frequencies among the Finns, a largely Uralic people.

It depends on how far you are willing to stretch the idea of European, to consider the Uralics as such. Different peoples view things differently.

Blondness is a generally misunderstood concept when reading ancient sources. Then, like now, among populations with high frequencies of dark brown and black hair, lighter tones of brown would be seen as "blond".

Besides, it is not true that the populations of those countries traditionally said to be Celtic have any majority of blond haired people. See Wales, Cornwall or Brittany. And in England it can be argued that most blondness came with the Saxon invasions.


I cannot believe that only the Celts brought the R1b. It is an unbelievable thing that the darkhaired mediterranean Spaniard is related the British, Dutch and Danish man and have a commun male ancestor R1 b.Define "related".

I don't think that the frequencies of R1b in Netherlands or in Denmark are that high for using them to decide what accounts as R1b.

Iacetanian
22-05-10, 21:14
Two days ago I read the message on rokus01worldpress. I understand that the Celtic influence was slight in the Netherlands. Who can give more information about the so-called Northwest Block?I've heard something, but not much. It's only a proposal for a group of western people north of the Celtic peoples, but still unrelated to the Germanic peoples.
East of the Rhine there were Germanic peoples at the time of the Classic Age.


The real Celtic tribes lived south of the Canche and Marne.At which time? In early times they lived west of the Rhine.


Maybe the Belgae were not a real Celtic or Germanic tribe.I think that all that can be said is that the Belgae were a western people. Definitely not German.


But where did the real Germanic speaking people live before the Romans's arrival?If looking at the archetypical Germanic, there are traits that resemble much the archetypical Slavic.


It strikes me that it always is assumed that the Cis Rhenani came from the east side of the Rhine. But why not from the north of Rhine?There is no "north" of the Rhine. It is east of the Rhine that sometimes is said north of it.


Tacitus wrote that the first Germanic speaking tribe, who invaded Belgium, were the Tungri.They established themselves in the Belgian place of Tongeren. But is it known that in the Dutch province of Gelderland (region Veluwe) there exist a village called Tongeren. And is there any relation between the Belgian town Leuven and the village Leuvenum in the region of Veluwe?The Germanics were already pushing towards the west at the time when the Romans arrived there. So the Romans would have found some Germanic tribesmen already settled west of the Rhine.

Haganus
25-05-10, 23:11
Herodotus wrote that Celtic tribes lived in Switserland, Austria and
south-Germany. And also in Bohemia. See the Hallstatt and Latene Culture.

Fair hair are most characteristic for the northwest european people like
the Germanic tribes, not the Uralics who are originally mongolic.

Cambrius (The Red)
26-05-10, 01:06
Herodotus wrote that Celtic tribes lived in Switserland, Austria and
south-Germany. And also in Bohemia. See the Hallstatt and Latene Culture.
Fair hair are most characteristic for the northwest european people like
the Germanic tribes, not the Uralics who are originally mongolic.

Herodotus wrote no such thing! Where are you getting your information from? What are you actually trying to say? Please, be clear on your facts.

Horodotus was very confused about geography - not unlike many other scholars in his day - and he believed the source of the River Danube was in the Pyrenees where possibly some of the Keltoi (Celts) tribes dwelled. But he saw the core Celtic land further west.

Here is exactly what he wrote about the Celts and Celtic lands:

Segment 2.34

I am willing to believe that [the Nile] rises at the same distance from its mouth as the [Danube], which has its source amongst the Keltoi at Pyrene and flows right through the middle of Europe, to reach the Black Sea at Mileto's colony of Istri. The Keltoi live beyond the Pillars of Hercules [the Straights of Gibraltar], near the Kunesioi who are the most westerly people of Europe

Segment 4.48

...the [Danube], that mighty stream which, rising amongst the Keltoi the most westerly, after the Kunetes, of all the European nations, traverses the whole length of the continent before it enters Scythia.

[adapted from translations of de Selincourt]

Herodotus was obviously referring to the Keltoi (Celts) as occupying what is today far southern Portugal and southwest Spain.

The old notion that Celticity originated in Central Europe is no longer accepted by many archaeologists, historians and population geneticists. The Central European theory is not tenable. Read some of the recently published research recommended on this thread.

And why do you keep insisting that Celts were predominantly fair haired people? There is no real evidence buttressing that mode of thinking. The Celts were quite likely mainly brown haired and, on average, similar to the large majority of the Atlantic Facade types found today.

Dean
26-05-10, 11:33
Imagino que Herodoto se refería a los que de toda la vida se les ha llamado los célticos.

Haganus
31-05-10, 22:54
Who has read on Dienekes blogspot (2 May 2010):
RMJ 269 casts doubt on its Neolithic arrival.
I understand that there serious doubts exist about the date of
arrival of the haplogroup R1b. I also read it on Forumbiodiversity-
forum. What is your opinion?

Erik

Neander
05-06-10, 08:57
Wrong. Basque is a pre-indoeuropean language. The R1b people spoke indo-european languages who split into the Germanic, Celtic, Latin languageswell, how it is possible, for a warrior people to be assimilated in another group?

It was the same group of people, tha same race, the same haplogroup,

...and today it is the same percentage of R1b in Basque and Celtics.

Why they are different?

Why celtic saved, and Basque did'nt saved their language??

Cambrius (The Red)
05-06-10, 15:45
Who has read on Dienekes blogspot (2 May 2010):
RMJ 269 casts doubt on its Neolithic arrival.
I understand that there serious doubts exist about the date of
arrival of the haplogroup R1b. I also read it on Forumbiodiversity-
forum. What is your opinion?

Erik

Forum Biodiversity is a joke.

spongetaro
03-03-11, 19:28
the stelae people theory may explain the spread of R1b P312 but I find strange for Indo European steppe people to come to Western Europe by seahttp://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/images/StelaePeople.jpg

Runic
04-03-11, 00:14
Forum Biodiversity is indeed ridiculous.

Degredado
19-04-12, 19:45
I cannot believe that only the Celts brought the R1b. It is an unbelievable
thing that the darkhaired mediterranean Spaniard is related the British,
Dutch and Danish man and have a commun male ancestor R1 b.

Such an old misconception. The British Isles have a high incidence of people who have obvious "mediterranean" phenotypes, for example, Sean Connery, Colin Farrell, Posh Spice, Orlando Bloom, Keira Knightley, all 4 Beatles, etc.

Just like the Iberian peninsula has plenty of light-haired people, with blue or green eyes. Being Dutch, you probably know some footballers: Santiago Canizares, Guti, Michel Salgado, Piqué, Xabi Alonso, Fernando Torres, Fernando Llorente, etc.

I am sure that the proportion of dark haired/dark eyed types in Spain is higher than in the Northwest of Europe, but both regions present both the mediterranean-looking and the more nordic-looking people.

Goga
19-04-12, 22:02
Forum Biodiversity is a joke.


Forum Biodiversity is indeed ridiculous.Lol, yes it is! The biggest joke on internet. :laughing:

sparkey
19-04-12, 23:05
I don't have anything against ABF. It has some good regular posters, like Vadim Verenich and Humanist. I prefer Eupedia, however, mainly because it has a focus that aligns with my interests better. (And we beat them in guessing Ötzi's haplogroup (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26763-Poll-What-will-%C3%96tzi-s-Y-DNA-haplogroup-be&p=380792&viewfull=1#post380792)).

spongetaro
20-04-12, 00:13
btw. Has anyone any idea of what happened to DNA forum?

MOESAN
20-04-12, 23:44
Such an old misconception. The British Isles have a high incidence of people who have obvious "mediterranean" phenotypes, for example, Sean Connery, Colin Farrell, Posh Spice, Orlando Bloom, Keira Knightley, all 4 Beatles, etc.

Just like the Iberian peninsula has plenty of light-haired people, with blue or green eyes. Being Dutch, you probably know some footballers: Santiago Canizares, Guti, Michel Salgado, Piqué, Xabi Alonso, Fernando Torres, Fernando Llorente, etc.

I am sure that the proportion of dark haired/dark eyed types in Spain is higher than in the Northwest of Europe, but both regions present both the mediterranean-looking and the more nordic-looking people.

Sean Connery has very more mesolitihic phenotype than a true mediterranean one! Mc Cartney has very few traits that recall the mediterranean -
collective phenotypes in Europe are by far more numerous than the too well known "mediterranean" and "nordic" one:
do not put every 'black' and 'black brown hair ' type to a "mediterranean" - even among "mediterraneans" there are subtypes that had a different histories -
but yes, in Brittain and Ireland there had been more than a wave (small or big) of southern peoples (some very close to modern true mediterraneans some others of paleo-mesolithic origin) - they were found for the most in remote enough regions and in industrial towns suburbs, their destiny tied to the celtic peoples one,in front of the germanic advance in the Isles -
and sorry, the fair complexion people in Spain are not so common even if more common than touristic stereotypes show (all the way, there are differences between regions in the Isles as in Iberia... I can not put in the same bag coastal people of Asturias or Nrothgalicia and some remote moutainous districts of Andalusia, not focusing on pigmentation but focusing on cephalic indexes and other features

MOESAN
20-04-12, 23:51
I add before leaving this phenotypical aspect, that even in the only Andalusia, you can find populations in districts that, even if sharing the same mixtures, show big enough differences in percentages within these mixtures (or crossings if you want) proving the different impacts of Northern Berbers, Helladic or Anatolian peoples (Neolithic, Chalcolithic, Bronze ...) or Romans, Celts, Germanics...not speaking about more recent facts of temporary minor impact

Alan
21-04-12, 12:01
the stelae people theory may explain the spread of R1b P312 but I find strange for Indo European steppe people to come to Western Europe by sea





http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/images/StelaePeople.jpg

Good that you come up with this stelae.

As far as I know Kurdistan was the only place where those Stelae where found in the Near East.

In the heartland of Kurdish lands.

Hakkari

These are estimated to be from around ~2000 b.c.
5578
5575
5576

stunning similarities to those found in the Ukrainian steppes. oddly these are some hundred years younger.

5577


both have stunning similarities to Scythian art Steleas.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Scythian_stelae_01.jpg



Later this year I saw on TV that they found some hundreds! younger stelae examples also in Iraqi and Iranian Kurdistan and I made some snapshots.
5579

Alan
21-04-12, 12:06
55835584Some more Stelae from Kurdistan.
558055815582

Taranis
21-04-12, 12:59
Good that you come up with this stelae.

As far as I know Kurdistan was the only place where those Stelae where found in the Near East.

In the heartland of Kurdish lands.

Hakkari

These are estimated to be from around ~2000 b.c.

stunning similarities to those found in the Ukrainian steppes. oddly these are some hundred years younger.

both have stunning similarities to Scythian art Steleas.

Later this year I saw on TV that they found some hundreds! younger stelae examples also in Iraqi and Iranian Kurdistan and I made some snapshots.

I personally have a number of problems with this "stelae people" hypothesis (at least, with the identification of the "stelae people" as early Indo-Europeans:

- the stelae have also been found in Sardinia, which lacks any presence of Indo-European languages before the Greeks/Romans, and I find it quite a stretch to assume that non-Indo-European languages arrived later in Sardinia and replaced earlier Indo-European ones, because there's just no evidence for that.

- as others noted before, it's quite a stretch to assume that the (apparenty land-based) Indo-Europeans would seemingly move straightforward as a maritime culture from southern Ukraine to Portugal.

- the arrival to Western Iberia seemingly immediately from Sardinia seems also to be quite a stretch, in my opinion.

- the Stelae People are seen as the source of the Beaker-Bell culture, but, there's a number of problems with this, in my opinion: one is that from the archaeological perspective there's too much continuity with the earlier Neolithic traditions (especially in terms of Megalith constructions - notably some of the main constructions at Stone Henge took place during the Beaker-Bell period), and additionally, some archaeologists have again and again questioned the homogenity/cohesion of the Beaker-Bell Culture and prefered to refer to it as the "Beaker Bell Phenomenon" instead.

- there is also the possibility that metal-working was an independent Western European invention (the oldest sites of Beaker-Bell metal-working are found in the 29th century BC in Portugal), seemingly out of nowhere.

- the perhaps most decisive argument, from what I've seen thus far, is that the spreading pattern that one can infer from the distribution and relationship of R1b subclades in Central/Western Europe does not look very favourable of the stelae people hypothesis. We would expect an entry pattern from the southwest (ie western Iberia) towards the north, but rather we seem to have an original Central European entry (L11* seems to have spread from the approximate area of modern-day Germany/Poland).

- perhaps most problematically either way is, we do not have a single sample (yet) of Y-Dna from Beaker-Bell sites.In other words, we have no way yet to verify/falsify the identity of the Beaker-Bell Culture either way.

Brennus
22-04-12, 19:56
It is a strange thing that big parts of West-Europa have the haplogroup
R1b. Even in the Iberian Peninsula till 90%!It is thought that the Celtic
tribes brought the haplogroup R1b. It also is present in Ireland,West-France and Iberian Peninsula. So a very big number of Celts must have crossed the Pyrenaes to bring the haplogroup R1b.


I cannot believe it. So about 80% of the Spaniards and Portgueses must have Celts as male ancestors and are related with the red haired Irishmen, Englishmen and faired haired Danes and Dutch. Who can explain me it? And what has happened with the ancient Iberian tribes? They ware warlike and macho men like the Spaniards today. I cannot imagine myself that they accepted the penetrance of Celtic men. Who can prove the penetrance of the Celts in the Iberian Peninsula?

The gene that causes red hair is also very common in Wales!

Brennus
22-04-12, 20:00
I don't have anything against ABF. It has some good regular posters, like Vadim Verenich and Humanist. I prefer Eupedia, however, mainly because it has a focus that aligns with my interests better. (And we beat them in guessing Ötzi's haplogroup (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26763-Poll-What-will-Ötzi-s-Y-DNA-haplogroup-be&p=380792&viewfull=1#post380792)).

What is Ötzi's haplogroug?

Brennus
22-04-12, 20:09
The old notion that Celticity originated in Central Europe is no longer accepted by many archaeologists, historians and population geneticists. The Central European theory is not tenable. Read some of the recently published research recommended on this thread.



Really, could you give examples?

sparkey
22-04-12, 20:25
What is Ötzi's haplogroug?


G2a2b (old G2a4).

Ziober
19-06-12, 19:50
First sorry by my english. latest DNA studies shows the haplogroup R1b were born in Iberian peninsula. The celt civilization were born in Iberian peninsula. The british redheads descent directly from Iberia. There are an article almost hidden for the people. Published in 2006 by "the independent" from the studys of the british genetist Bryan Sykes, teacher of Oxford University, wich explain how the british islands are not populated by saxons, in spite of this, there are 70% iberians and 25% vikings.

I strongly recommended the read of it. You can search by "bryan sykes independent"

Taranis
19-06-12, 20:35
First sorry by my english. latest DNA studies shows the haplogroup R1b were born in Iberian peninsula. The celt civilization were born in Iberian peninsula. The british redheads descent directly from Iberia. There are an article almost hidden for the people. Published in 2006 by "the independent" from the studys of the british genetist Bryan Sykes, teacher of Oxford University, wich explain how the british islands are not populated by saxons, in spite of this, there are 70% iberians and 25% vikings.

I strongly recommended the read of it. You can search by "bryan sykes independent"

Welcome to Eupedia.

I'm sorry to break this to you, but your sources are completely outdated (2006 can be hardly called "the latest" in the context of genetics). R1b clearly didn't originate on the Iberian peninsula. In fact, it's absent in all sites with genetic samples from the Neolithic, such as Derenburg (http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1000536) and Treilles (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/05/24/1100723108/suppl/DCSupplemental). The oldest find currently of R1b is from a Beaker Bell Culture site in Germany, which is extensively discussed in this thread (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27508-Bell-Beakers-from-Germany-Y-haplogroup-R1b). Bryan Sykes views have are completely outdated and disproven at this point, in particular the assumption that there is just "one" R1b without caring for the fact that there's multiple subclades of it which have clear patterns of regional spreading is highly simplistic.

EDIT: You might also want to check out Maciamo's page on R1b (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml), which explains the subclades of R1b.

sparkey
19-06-12, 20:53
First sorry by my english. latest DNA studies shows the haplogroup R1b were born in Iberian peninsula. The celt civilization were born in Iberian peninsula. The british redheads descent directly from Iberia. There are an article almost hidden for the people. Published in 2006 by "the independent" from the studys of the british genetist Bryan Sykes, teacher of Oxford University, wich explain how the british islands are not populated by saxons, in spite of this, there are 70% iberians and 25% vikings.

I strongly recommended the read of it. You can search by "bryan sykes independent"

It's funny that you mention Sykes 2006 as "the latest," when there actually is some real latest genetic studies of Britain being rolled out from Bodmer's People of the British Isles (http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/) project. They've finally released their maps (http://sse.royalsociety.org/2012/exhibits/genetic-maps/), which they have been contending demonstrate major Anglo-Saxon influence in England and lowland Scotland, with Scandinavian influence mostly felt in the Orkneys, and the Cornish and Welsh being the most obviously pre-Anglo Saxon populations in Britain. See also Western Morning News' media report (http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/DNA-shows-Cornish-purest-Britons/story-16402116-detail/story.html).

Knovas
19-06-12, 22:23
I mostly see your points sparkey and Taranis. However, admixture tests show substantial allele sharing between Iberians and people from the British Isles, possibly more if we focus in Cornwall and/or Wales, although not really that much. Both Cornish and Welsh aren't incredibly different compared to their neighbours, so I tend to think that in a deeper past they were pretty much like Basques, not apreciable today due to some kind of influence emanating from West Asia, which Basques lack in all experiments.

Jackson
19-06-12, 23:56
It's funny that you mention Sykes 2006 as "the latest," when there actually is some real latest genetic studies of Britain being rolled out from Bodmer's People of the British Isles (http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/) project. They've finally released their maps (http://sse.royalsociety.org/2012/exhibits/genetic-maps/), which they have been contending demonstrate major Anglo-Saxon influence in England and lowland Scotland, with Scandinavian influence mostly felt in the Orkneys, and the Cornish and Welsh being the most obviously pre-Anglo Saxon populations in Britain. See also Western Morning News' media report (http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/DNA-shows-Cornish-purest-Britons/story-16402116-detail/story.html).

Just wondering, is there more than one map?

MOESAN
19-06-12, 23:56
[QUOTE=Knovas;396244]I mostly see your points sparkey and Taranis. However, admixture tests show substantial allele sharing between Iberians and people from the British Isles, possibly more if we focus in Cornwall and/or Wales, although not really that much. Both Cornish and Welsh aren't incredibly different compared to their neighbours, so I tend to think that in a deeper past they were pretty much like Basques, not apreciable today due to some kind of influence emanating from West Asia, which Basques lack in all experiments.[/QUOTE


I also agree with you and Taranis and Sparkey for recentring the topic around serious facts -
-- admixture tests are depending on human choices and shall be improved in future being more precise, I hope -
-- my present guess: R1b reached Western Europe maybe through two ways: a northern one not far from the Baltic shores and a southern one: Danaw or Mediterranea - it was under an intermediate form, R-L51 from L23, turning into R-11 (both North and South, the two of them in very small populations) - the northern one focused geographically around North-germany Denmark S-W Baltic, the southern one in France or everyhow around Alps mountains - the variance and the distributions of the principal derived HGs (L21, U152, S2627, Z?...I forgot) in Occident matche very well this center of diffusion: Iberia was never (for me) the first center of demographic increase, even if we can assume that very Northern Spain could have been in the margins of the center "french" or "swiss" area:
I suppose U106 had yet is proper story, in colder climate even if not so different climate - L21 more Northern and Northwestern, with future expanding southwards along the Atlantic coasts and Borth Sea shores (Cantabricas, Euskadi-Basque country- the 'alpinized' R-U152 known an late expansion on almost every direction but a little (or more long time) after? surely with La Tène Celts but perhaps already before it concerning West - the South Italian "older" upstream HGs of Y-R1b are from other recent origin from East mediterranean (because ancient origin is the same, by definition) and the Central Europe -Danubian"newer" (western = downstream, HGs found today un Czechoslovakia and N-Croatia by instance) are recent, from a West-to-East expansion (Celts? Urnfields? both?) - the nuances between the Isles and Iberia are explained by the different proportions among the R1b-floods - nuances or not they could implicate an ancient enough separation between clades...
the first apparition of Y-R1b is still a mystere for me: my scenario, with very few changes, could apply to a Paleo- or Mesolithic period, or a first I-Ean caused diffusion of people (I6Eans and people pushed by them
I wait more ancient DNA for females and above all for males (Meso- and Neolithic and so on) - I avow my metric readings and personal observations about British, Iberian and French people ush me to think to ancient enough separations - THE OBSTACLE: ONE of the tribes of Bakshirs in Russia!
good night - buenas noches

MOESAN
20-06-12, 00:00
Even in a (out of work for someones) Paleo perspective, France did furnish more human stock to Europe repopulation than Iberia, according to the studied Paelolithic sites, look at the Aquitain richness - and maybe not only Southern France -

sparkey
20-06-12, 01:01
Just wondering, is there more than one map?

I think there might be, but I'm not sure. We may see more next month. I did see another variant from a reproduction of a Sunday Times article here (http://www.savecornwall.org/?p=235)... apparently a lower-resolution cluster plot from the same data.

Jackson
20-06-12, 01:18
I think there might be, but I'm not sure. We may see more next month. I did see another variant from a reproduction of a Sunday Times article here (http://www.savecornwall.org/?p=235)... apparently a lower-resolution cluster plot from the same data.

Ah, Cheers Sparkey. Yeah i guess there will be a small cascade of articles over the coming weeks in the media, and hopefully more of the project will be revealed soon!

That's an interesting article, cherry picked but it does include a couple of things i hadn't read on the main site. It's interesting reading these articles and seeing how prevalent the Iberian Refugium idea still is. I think the similarity of the Welsh to the Irish and French is probably the key thing there though - Looks very much L21 related.
Hehe i thought the Cornish would like this, it's what they've been waiting for i suppose.
Hopefully the picture will become clearer when the samples for Europe are integrated into the analysis.

Thanks for the link.

sparkey
20-06-12, 01:51
It's interesting reading these articles and seeing how prevalent the Iberian Refugium idea still is.

It's a bit irritating to be honest, especially considering that these full-genome cluster plots don't give any resolution on temporal differences. What's the TMRCA of these clusters?... who knows. These results have nothing to say about the Iberian Refuge theory.


I think the similarity of the Welsh to the Irish and French is probably the key thing there though - Looks very much L21 related.

Agreed. Similarly, the red cluster reaches its peak in R1b-U106-heavy areas. Personally, I'd like to see these clusters on a relationship chart, rather than just on a map. I wonder how close the Cornish gold cluster is going to be to the Devon/Somerset green cluster... the initial reports indicate that the Cornish are extra-special, but I have a feeling that the green cluster will form a bridge between the gold and the red clusters.


Hehe i thought the Cornish would like this, it's what they've been waiting for i suppose.

It's funny that Cornish Nationalists, a rather small group of folks, have published and commented on these preliminary releases more than anybody else that I've seen, including the genetic hobbyist community. Like, that's the only place I've seen that version of the map online.

willyjp
20-06-12, 06:05
One error of thinking that marks the original post is the error of associating to much in the way of hereditary somatic characteristics to the Y haplotype. Please do not forget that, when speaking of the Y chromosome, we are talking about a TINY portion of the total genetic information. Y haplotypes are of interest for their usefulness in tracking one's MALE LINE ONLY (a small portion of your total heredity). This is because of, of course, the unique nature of MOST of the Y chromosome it its exclusive source from ones male parent (serially over countless generations) and the fact that (most) of it does not undergo recombination with the corresponding DNA on the X chromosome. But, in the wholistic scheme of ontogeny, the DNA information on the Y chromosome carries VERY LITTLE of importance to salient somatic characteristics such as body type, build, color of hair, skin and eyes, etc., etc.. So because Iberians of today don't LOOK like Irishmen of today, do not be misled in thinking that they might very well be of the same Y haplotype! The two things are very distantly if at all connected!!

Ziober
20-06-12, 07:27
It's funny that you mention Sykes 2006 as "the latest," when there actually is some real latest genetic studies of Britain being rolled out from Bodmer's people of the british isles project. They've finally released their maps, which they have been contending demonstrate major Anglo-Saxon influence in England and lowland Scotland, with Scandinavian influence mostly felt in the Orkneys, and the Cornish and Welsh being the most obviously pre-Anglo Saxon populations in Britain. See also Western morning news' media report.

Hi Sparkey. The article of POTBI you talk about is unfinished and saying nothing. The saxon influence is linguistic, not genetic.

Taranis
20-06-12, 09:43
Hi Sparkey. The article of POTBI you talk about is unfinished and saying nothing. The saxon influence is linguistic, not genetic.

Did you check of any of the other links? There clearly is such genetic influence by the Anglo-Saxons. The most likely obvious Y-Haplogroup is a subclade of R1b-S21:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gif

Besides, on a purely theoretical level, how likely is it otherwise for invaders in the illiterate period to have virtually no genetic impact but successfully press their language upon half of Britain? Even back in the day when we had no idea about subclades, the idea seemed outlandish to me.

Ziober
20-06-12, 09:58
Hi Willyjp. Y crhomosome can be tiny, but it is saying so much.
What kind of spaniards don't looks like irish ones? Mexicans, bolivians, peruvians? The big mistake of call spanish at south american people... It is the same that call british at sioux, mohicans, cherokis, etc.

So in 6000 years people can change slightly, if the weather is not the same. In irish people remains older characters that modern iberian people have lost. Ireland is an island. In Spanish we say "aislado" from "isla" it means "someone or something that stays alone". When i ll get 10 post, i'll can put samples of parentesc.

Ziober
20-06-12, 11:22
Taranis, the word that helps to understand it is "trading".
I trust more about another map. But i can't put pics yet. the map that you refer shows slow percentages everywhere. Other maps shows percentages of r1b about 90%, in north Iberia and many places on the isles.

Taranis
20-06-12, 11:33
Taranis, the word that helps to understand it is "trading".
I trust more about another map. But i can't put pics yet. the map that you refer shows slow percentages everywhere. Other maps shows percentages of r1b about 90%, in north Iberia and many places on the isles.

Ziober, you're apparently unaware that the overall distribution of R1b means very little if you ignore the subclades. These subclades have regional distributions and are evident for historic patterns of spread of Haplogroup R1b. It's very clear if you look at the tree below that R1b did not in fact originate on the Iberian peninsula, and it didn't enter the British Isles either via that route.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-tree.gif

Knovas
20-06-12, 13:37
Haplogroup frequencies tell very little in terms of autosomal. As I said, Basques, who have a lot of R1b, are the less West Asian influenced, and that's what makes them specially so different compared to standard Europeans. Maybe the people who brought the Indo-European languajes were R1b, it's perfectly possible, but there was at least one region where whose influence wasn't that huge despite of the haplogroup frequencies, in both genetic and cultural aspects. The facts are: Basques don't speak an Indo-European languaje, and they represent an extreme gene pole in West Eurasia according to all tests, followed closely by Sardinians (who are pretty much Neolithic genetically speaking).

Actually, Neolithic + Meso-Paleolithic substratum seems to explain fairly well present European genetics. We just need to go more in detail when new discoveries appear.

Ziober
20-06-12, 17:01
Ziober, you're apparently unaware that the overall distribution of R1b means very little if you ignore the subclades. These subclades have regional distributions and are evident for historic patterns of spread of Haplogroup R1b. It's very clear if you look at the tree below that R1b did not in fact originate on the Iberian peninsula, and it didn't enter the British Isles either via that route.


When i said "Iberia is the core of R1b", i'm talking about atlantean reds. This thread is about R1b in iberian peninsula, france and british islands.

Thanks for the tree Taranis. In wich we can see how R1b linage from Pontic Steppe was divided in two branches. One Germanic, with s21 that you talking about. The map you put, had lower percentages of s21 in the isles, small in england (20-30%) and smallest in celtic nations (less than 5% in Scottland, wales or ireland). And another branch "Italo-Celtic". Right, i agree.... Celts haven't germanic origin.

Taranis
20-06-12, 17:36
When i said "Iberia is the core of R1b", i'm talking about atlantean reds. This thread is about R1b in iberian peninsula, france and british islands.

Thanks for the tree Taranis. In wich we can see how R1b linage from Pontic Steppe was divided in two branches. One Germanic, with s21 that you talking about. The map you put, had lower percentages of s21 in the isles, small in england (20-30%) and smallest in celtic nations (less than 5% in Scottland, wales or ireland). And another branch "Italo-Celtic". Right, i agree.... Celts haven't germanic origin.

You're very welcome. The matter is more complicated than that, however, and I'd advise against preliminary conclusions. As you can see from the tree, P312/S116 is subdivided into several larger subclades. Two of them, L21 and S28 have been known for quite some time:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S28.gif

Both subclades are generally held to be associated with the historic distribution of the Celtic-speaking peoples (though probably not exclusively - neither can we rule out for instance that S21 was wholly Germanic). For the other two subclades, Z196 appears to be the dominant subclade on the Iberian peninsula, in particular amongst the Basques. If that shows you anything then it's that Y-Haplogroups do not equate 1:1 with what language people speak, either (to pick another example: nobody would guess from Y-DNA that the Hungarians speak Hungarian!), and Knovas brought up a very valid that we shouldn't just focus on Y-DNA but also take autosomal DNA into consideration (which indeed may provide a solution for the riddle of the Basques). The statement "Iberia is the core of R1b" is certainly incorrect in any way.

As for how R1b entered Western Europe, my opinion based on the latest data is that R1b is probably entered Europe via southern France and from there spread across Western Europe. This gets clear if you take a look at the distribution of L51, which is, if you take another look at the "tree", upstream from the "Italo-Celtic" (S116) and "Germanic" (S21) subclades of R1b (it's also upstream from the immediate "father" clade L11):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5652&d=1339012785

sparkey
20-06-12, 17:55
Hi Sparkey. The article of POTBI you talk about is unfinished and saying nothing. The saxon influence is linguistic, not genetic.

Bodmer has argued in presentations that the lack of full-genome variation in most of England (the red dots) points to a large Anglo-Saxon influence. Besides R1b-S21/U106, we also have previous autosomal studies, particularly Eurogenes, that show that the Southeastern corner of England has genetic affinity to Continental West Germanic countries, which the Celtic fringe lacks (look up the Eurogenes spreadsheets and compare North Atlantic/Nothern European component ratios). I don't think we'd see this pattern if Britain had been isolated through the Migration Period... more likely, we'd see a stronger affinity of the Welsh to the Southeastern English, and a stronger affinity of both to the Northwestern French than the Dutch. Of course, as others have mentioned, there's also an important older substratum that makes the difference between British regions (and all neighboring regions across Europe) somewhat muted, even given migrations.

Knovas
20-06-12, 20:04
Ziober, you can check one the latest autosomal maps by the Eurogenes Project. This one is a West Eurasian map: http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6549/spawevsca.png

Includes samples from Europe (White Americans included), Caucasus area, the Middle East, North Africa, Pakistan and North India. The addition of the last two, forces many European groups to overlap, but it's nothing drastic. You can see that a non despreciable amount of Cornish samples slightly pull to Basques, and some appear very close to a few French (likely Breton descent). The genetic proximity with some Germans and Dutch it's also noticeable (see DE & NL ID's).

Basques and Sardinians are isolated as usual. The main Spaniards cluster in the middle of French, Noth Italians and Basques. Some Iberians deviate towards Basques or the French, some even slightly pull to Sardinia at a similar distance as the Cornish do with Basques. The ES samples clustering Basques are Basques, not Spaniards, and the FR's who are close, are from Gascony.

I think it's really ilustrative. At a global level (including East Asians, Sub-Saharans, etc.), caucasoid populations tend to overlap a lot. If we could see a map like this at perfect resolution, it would be the best aproximation though.

Best.

Ziober
20-06-12, 21:13
I'm not talking about basques neither spaniards. I'm talking about resettlement of West Europe after glaciations, nordic celtiberians done.

Respected Taranis, Why don't you put the map of Z196 distribution? Because your source is politically biased i think. So why don't you put the first map wich appears in your source maps page?

Ziober
20-06-12, 21:27
Sorry knovas, i can't see that map.

Knovas
20-06-12, 21:39
The link works for me. If the problem is that you cannot distinguish the samples, just click for zoom. Or you can check it directly from the Eurogenes blog: http://bga101.blogspot.com.es/

Ziober
20-06-12, 21:52
In that map I only can see words, country initials: ES PT FR... followed by numbers, there aren't colours or images, neither haplogroups. i haven't access to the data.

Taranis
20-06-12, 21:53
I'm not talking about basques neither spaniards. I'm talking about resettlement of West Europe after glaciations, nordic celtiberians done.

As the others and I explained, this doesn't make sense. R1b was evidently absent from Western Europe during the Neolithic (which in itself was thousands of years after the end of the last ice age), since it has thus far failed to come up in any ancient DNA samples from Neolithic sites. The idea to correlate R1b with the glacial refuge of the last ice age was debunked.


Respected Taranis, Why don't you put the map of Z196 distribution? Because your source is politically biased i think.

I'd put up a distribution map of R1b-Z196 if there was a (good) map of it. As I mentioned, the markers S21, L21 and S28 were all known or quite a while (as were some subclades of Z196, in particular M153 and M167), while the R1b-Z196 marker has been discovered only relatively later, and as a result, the major studies off which these maps are based did not include them yet. The maps were, by the way, made by the site owner, Maciamo. The reason he didn't make a map of Z196 yet is not because he would be politically biased, but because of a data deficiency.


So why don't you put the first map wich appears in your source maps page?

Do you mean the overall distribution map of R1b? You have to keep in mind that this represents the overall percentage of R1b, completely disregarding the various subclades:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b.gif

Knovas
20-06-12, 22:13
In that map I only can see words, country initials: ES PT FR... followed by numbers, there aren't colours or images, neither haplogroups. i haven't access to the data.
The map represents full ancestry of different individuals, which haplogroups cannot provide (they only point to one ancestor, not the thousands of ancestors we have). Every ES, PT, UK, etc., you see, it's a person. Depending on ones ancestral markers, the program assigns a position.


I'm not talking about basques neither spaniards. I'm talking about resettlement of West Europe after glaciations, nordic celtiberians done.
Celtic folks did not play a role concerning this. Just after glaciations there was no Indo-European in Europe, let alone Iberia. The ancient inhabitants of the Peninsula were non Indo-European speakers for a very long time, Basque presence nowadays makes this clear. Without mentioning ancient discoveries related to the Iberian culture (possibly as ancient as Basque, both pretty similar)...not Indo-European at all. Taranis knows this better than me.

MOESAN
20-06-12, 22:22
[QUOTE=Taranis;396276]As the others and I explained, this doesn't make sense. R1b was evidently absent from Western Europe during the Neolithic (which in itself was thousands of years after the end of the last ice age), since it has thus far failed to come up in any ancient DNA samples from Neolithic sites. The idea to correlate R1b with the glacial refuge of the last ice age was debunked.

just a little calcul concerning the respective weight of Y-I and Y-R1b in Europe (today!)
I did not try to go into details, just an overlook that retains more ancient ancestry?




broioù

Y-I
Y-R1b
I/I+R1b

















BASHKIRED
0,0
47,0
0,0



SPAGN KASTI-LEON

3,0
64,0
4,5



SPAGN KASTI-MANCHA

3,5
66,0
5,0



FRAÑS POETEW-S
4,5
74,5
5,7



SPAGN EUSKADI

5,5
85,0
6,1



SPAGN ASTURIAS

4,0
58,5
6,4



SPAGN KATALONIA
6,0
82,5
6,8



FRAÑS ALVERNIA

4,5
52,5
7,9



SPAGN KANTABRIA

6,0
55,0
9,8



SPAGN GALIKIA
7,0
63,0
10,0



KEMBRE

9,5
83,5
10,2



PORTUGAL

6,5
56,0
10,4



FRAÑS PROVAÑS
7,0
58,0
10,8



SPAGN VALENKIA

9,5
63,5
13,0



FRAÑS BREIZH

12,5
80,0
13,5



SPAGN ANDALUSIA

9,5
58,5
14,0



IWERZHON

13,0
79,0
14,1



FRAÑS LYONNAIS ALP

11,0
66,5
14,2



ITALIA SIKILIA

5,0
30,0
14,3



FRAÑS ILE-FRANCE
8,5
45,0
15,9



BRO-SKOSS ALBA

14,0
72,5
16,2



ITALIA NORZH
11,0
55,0
16,7



FRAÑS ELSASS

13,5
63,5
17,5



FRAÑS ARTOIS-FL .
14,0
61,0
18,7



ITALIA KREIS

10,0
43,0
18,9



ITALIA SU

7,5
29,0
20,5



SPAGN ARAGON
17,5
60,5
22,4



BRO-SAOS
21,0
67,0
23,9



BELGIA

19,5
61,0
24,2



TURKI ANATOLIA
5,5
16,0
25,6



ALAMAGN SU
18,0
48,5
27,1



SWISS

18,0
48,0
27,3



ALAMAGN KORNAOG
21,5
47,0
31,4



BROIOU-ISEL

25,5
53,5
32,3



GRESSIA SU
11,5
20,5
35,9



ALAMAGN RETER

23,0
36,0
39,0



LATVIA
8,0
12,0
40,0



ALAMAGN NORZH

26,5
36,0
42,4



SLOVAKIA
17,0
23,0
42,5



ISLAND

33,0
42,0
44,0



GRESSIA KRETA

12,0
15,0
44,4



DANMARK
35,5
44,0
44,7



AOSTRIA

20,0
23,0
46,5



KUBROS
8,0
9,0
47,1



NORWEGIA
25,0
28,0
47,2



ALBANIA

15,5
16,0
49,2



POLONIA

16,0
16,0
50,0



TCHEKIA
24,0
22,0
52,2



GRESSIA KREIS

14,0
11,5
54,9



SLOVENIA

33,5
23,5
58,8



HUNGARIA
25,5
17,0
60,0



ITALIA SARDINIA

37,0
22,0
62,7



GRESSIA NORZH

22,5
13,0
63,4



SWEDEN
41,0
22,0
65,1



ROMANIA
30,0
16,0
65,2



MAKEDONIA

28,0
13,5
67,5



RUSSIA WENN
22,0
10,0
68,8



ESTONIA

18,5
8,0
69,8



RUSSIA

15,5
6,0
72,1



LITUANIA
13,0
5,0
72,2



BULGARIA

28,0
9,5
74,7



SERBIA
41,5
7,0
85,6



UKRAINA

25,0
4,0
86,2



KROATIA
51,0
8,0
86,4



FINNLAND

29,0
3,5
89,2



BOSNIA HERZEGOVINA

53,0
4,0
93,0

Ziober
20-06-12, 22:32
As the others and I explained, this doesn't make sense. R1b was evidently absent from Western Europe during the Neolithic (which in itself was thousands of years after the end of the last ice age), since it has thus far failed to come up in any ancient DNA samples from Neolithic sites. The idea to correlate R1b with the glacial refuge of the last ice age was debunked.

R1b was absent in Western Europe in neolithic? is it a joke?. Bryan Sykes is not the only genetist that found what i said. There are Spencer Wells, who leads the biggest Human genoma project ever. You can see....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQHX_MwhN80



I'd put up a distribution map of R1b-Z196 if there was a (good) map of it. As I mentioned, the markers S21, L21 and S28 were all known or quite a while (as were some subclades of Z196, in particular M153 and M167), while the R1b-Z196 marker has been discovered only relatively later, and as a result, the major studies off which these maps are based did not include them yet. The maps were, by the way, made by the site owner, Maciamo. The reason he didn't make a map of Z196 yet is not because he would be politically biased, but because of a data deficiency.



Do you mean the overall distribution map of R1b? You have to keep in mind that this represents the overall percentage of R1b, completely disregarding the various subclades:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b.gif

Yes, the overall percentage it is, but rest S21, L21 and S28 to overall, and obtain that in Western Europe Z196 dominates

Taranis
20-06-12, 22:58
R1b was absent in Western Europe in neolithic? is it a joke?. Bryan Sykes is not the only genetist that found what i said. There are Spencer Wells, who leads the biggest Human genoma project ever. You can see....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQHX_MwhN80

Sorry, it's not a joke. Your sources are outdated. And yes, that Wells video too: it's from march 2010 - so no matter how old the video itself is, he could impossibly have known of the following papers:

1) Treilles, southern France (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/05/24/1100723108/suppl/DCSupplemental) (published March 2011):
Y-Haplogroups G2a and I2a

2) Derenburg, Germany (http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1000536) (published November 2010):
Y-Haplogroups F* and G2a

3) Cogols, Catalonia, Spain (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/10/24/1113061108.abstract) (published October 2011):
Y-Haplogroups G2a and E1b-V13

As you can see, all of this is from peer-reviewed sources, and in none of the ancient DNA samples R1b did show up.



Yes, the overall percentage it is, but rest S21, L21 and S28 to overall, and obtain that in Western Europe Z196 dominates

Sorry, no. Z196 does clearly not dominate Western Europe. It's concentrated on the Iberian peninsula. If you subtract the brother clades of Z196 (S28 and L21) from the following map (which shows the parent clade, S116), this gets very evident:


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/THq_t3eR6JI/AAAAAAAACjg/ECinYNcEUB8/s400/s116.jpg

sparkey
20-06-12, 23:10
just a little calcul concerning the respective weight of Y-I and Y-R1b in Europe (today!)
I did not try to go into details, just an overlook that retains more ancient ancestry?

What do you suppose these ratios demonstrate? I don't think they really show which groups have the most anciently European ancestry across their genomes... just in their YDNA frequencies. The youth of the primary R1b and I expansions in Europe attests to that... there is too much of a possibility of expansions of certain Y lines within populations to equate Y lines with full genomes here.

sparkey
20-06-12, 23:22
As you can see, all of this is from peer-reviewed sources, and in none of the ancient DNA samples R1b did show up.

Don't forget R1b actually popping up in a Beaker site (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27508-Bell-Beakers-from-Germany-Y-haplogroup-R1b), though, which could be called late Neolithic, depending on your semantics. Of course, the fact that the earliest R1b we've found was Beaker... a late Neolithic-origin culture, which flourished in the Copper Age and into the Bronze Age and isn't linked to the earliest farmers... reinforces the idea that R1b postdates the haplogroups linked to the early farmers, especially the Neolithic subclades of G2.

Also, it's worth mentioning TMRCA calculations of R1b subclades performed by Walsh (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27049-More-precise-R1b-subclade-estimates-using-Nordtvedt-s-methodology) and Klyosov (http://www.scribd.com/doc/59161581/Proceedings-of-the-Russian-Academy-of-DNA-Genealogy) which both show that the common subclades of R1b in Western and Central Europe didn't even form until near the beginning of the Bronze Age. Much older clades exist in Asia.

Ziober
21-06-12, 14:45
Who deleted my last post? I think any people don't like to bring the true at most people, in other forums, when an admin delete some post, it explain why. But not here.

In spain we say "la realidad muerde""tarde o temprano la verdad sale a la luz"

Taranis
21-06-12, 14:48
Who deleted my last post? I think any people don't like to bring the true at most people, in other forums, when an admin delete some post, it explain why. But not here.

In spain we say "la realidad muerde""tarde o temprano la verdad sale a la luz"

I didn't delete them, I moved them into a separate thread because it was clearly unrelated with the discussion of this thread. It can be found here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27586-(offtopic-from-R1b-in-Atlantic-Europe)&p=396289#post396289). I would like to apologize however for the inconvinience this may have caused.

Ziober
21-06-12, 17:46
Well. i'd put that paint here, because it is related with the line that i was defending. Here we talk about R1b in Atlantic Europe. So in that picture appears some atlantic european men with R1b inside them. The fact is, that when i saw the paint for my first time, i couldn't say who are who.

- Why?
- Because most of they come from the same gene pool. That is Iberia (or Celtiberia as we want).

http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af129/txumi_ledauno/2804PantojadelaCruz-1604-TheSomersetHouseConference.jpg

This is only for Answer to yourself. There are some English and spaniards men. but, Who are Who?

sparkey
21-06-12, 17:55
The fact is, that when i saw the paint for my first time, i couldn't say who are who.

- Why?

Because it's a painting, by one artist, so they're all in the same style. Try photographs. You'll find that there is overlap between the populations, but the means are definitely different.


That is Iberia (or Celtiberia as we want).

Not the same thing. Iberia also includes some traditionally non-Celtiberian areas, mainly along the fringes. Do you mean that all the Spaniards came from traditionally Celtiberian areas?

Ziober
21-06-12, 20:57
Because it's a painting, by one artist, so they're all in the same style. Try photographs. You'll find that there is overlap between the populations, but the means are definitely different..

Many artist have a rare and personal style, but this one looks like a photo, so i'll put photos.
Climate weather change phenotypes, genetic drift in the last two centuries is growing exponentially, there are more and better transportation. is for that more reliable this paint from 4 centurys ago.

And don't forget the Viking contribution in the islands, which Iberia is almost nil




Not the same thing. Iberia also includes some traditionally non-Celtiberian areas, mainly along the fringes. Do you mean that all the Spaniards came from traditionally Celtiberian areas?

Of course, but as many celtiberians, like me, we wants to call Celtiberia at the peninsula. Iberia is neither correct.

MOESAN
21-06-12, 23:26
What do you suppose these ratios demonstrate? I don't think they really show which groups have the most anciently European ancestry across their genomes... just in their YDNA frequencies. The youth of the primary R1b and I expansions in Europe attests to that... there is too much of a possibility of expansions of certain Y lines within populations to equate Y lines with full genomes here.

I is for "matter of reflexion": I find these Indo-European very smart and powerful males indeed!!! But I have no agenda, I would be very glad to be a "pure" Indo-European, as 'Celt' I am - and I do not discard the I-E theory for R1b: perhaps we need to put it earlier? but I find nevertheless you seam very secure of your thoughts...
I know this is a compilation of different ligneages, but very close one bees one together! I never said they did not have had different stories...

sparkey
22-06-12, 00:15
Many artist have a rare and personal style, but this one looks like a photo, so i'll put photos.

Check out our Guess the Ethnicity (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?221-Guess-the-Ethnicity) forum, it may be the place you want to post that sort of thing.


And don't forget the Viking contribution in the islands, which Iberia is almost nil

...

The Vikings were active quite a long time before that painting.

Besides, don't you think the Goths, Suebi, Vandals, and Franks had an impact on the Iberian population?

Taranis
22-06-12, 11:25
Celtic folks did not play a role concerning this. Just after glaciations there was no Indo-European in Europe, let alone Iberia. The ancient inhabitants of the Peninsula were non Indo-European speakers for a very long time, Basque presence nowadays makes this clear. Without mentioning ancient discoveries related to the Iberian culture (possibly as ancient as Basque, both pretty similar)...not Indo-European at all. Taranis knows this better than me.

I'm sorry I didn't see that post earlier: I don't want to drag this discussion too far away from the topic, but you're obviously right. The ancient Celtiberian language was a Celtic language, thus making it a relative of modern Irish, Scottish Gaelic, Breton and Welsh. Although it should be added that Celtiberian was not particularly similar to those modern languages - it was a Continental Celtic language, in many ways more similar to Latin or Classical Greek (it's possible that the similarity between the old Celtic languages and Latin probably greatly helped in the quick adoption of Latin). The Celtic language family is one branch of the Indo-European languages, and no matter what scenario of their origin you favour, they originated outside of Western Europe: the more accepted Kurgan hypothesis suggests that they evolved in the latest Neolithic / early Bronze Age in the Pontic-Caspian region. The more contested Anatolian hypothesis (which also has a few adherents on this board), in contrast, suggests that they evolved in Anatolia and spread into Europe with the advent of agriculture. Additionally, it should be pointed out that the Celtiberians were one out of many ethnic groups (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b5/Iberia_300BC.svg/1000px-Iberia_300BC.svg.png) on the ancient Iberian peninsula that were speaking a Celtic (or more broadly, Indo-European) language. And as you pointed out, there were obviously also non-Indo-European languages spoken on the Iberian peninsula one of them (Basque) which survives to this day.

Ziober
22-06-12, 18:29
The Vikings were active quite a long time before that painting.

I knew this long time ago!!, i didn't said this about men of the paint. Wich looks a moderate rutilism in most of them, if not all of them.


Besides, don't you think the Goths, Suebi, Vandals, and Franks had an impact on the Iberian population?

as far as I know, Visigodos (goths) were "the rulers" and don't cross with folks so much. About others those you mention i don't know so much.


Check out our Guess the Ethnicity (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?221-Guess-the-Ethnicity) forum, it may be the place you want to post that sort of thing.

"divide et vinces" Julio Cesar.

I can't divide my arguments in two subforums, even one of these without activity. In other hand, i don't like to put here photos of people without permission. So i'll put only few pics of a friend of mine. With those photos, i'll try to explain how too much people, have a wrong idea about spaniard look, or the "black haired" spaniards.

In most lighting conditions, hundreds of thousands spaniards get a hair colour like next sample:

http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af129/txumi_ledauno/mo3.jpghttp://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af129/txumi_ledauno/mor1.jpg
http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af129/txumi_ledauno/b1.jpg


But, when the sunshine almost horizontally pass through the hair (few times). scattered light shows...

http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af129/txumi_ledauno/r2.jpg
http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af129/txumi_ledauno/r1.jpg
http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af129/txumi_ledauno/r3.jpg

Ziober
22-06-12, 19:13
Another sample. In this video, Loquillo (the tallest man) looks like blackhaired to second minute. after this... Her hair looks red!! (dark auburn):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8QC7Ej2DXo

Taranis
22-06-12, 19:15
Another sample. In this video, Loquillo (the tallest man) looks like blackhaired to second minute. after this... Her hair looks red!! (dark auburn)

Why do you keep posting this? This has absolutely nothing to do with the original discussion of this thread.

Ziober
22-06-12, 19:24
We have been talking about how similar or not are spaniards vs british & irish. Sparkey ask to me for photos. I can not put videos? This video show the wrong idea about blackhaired spaniards. who want to see, can do it. is hosted on another server and will not collapse Eupedia.

Knovas
22-06-12, 19:42
sparkey said that, for posting pictures, it's better to use this thread: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?221-Guess-the-Ethnicity

MOESAN
22-06-12, 22:37
Another sample. In this video, Loquillo (the tallest man) looks like blackhaired to second minute. after this... Her hair looks red!! (dark auburn):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8QC7Ej2DXo

even if every thing is linked in Man (and other problems too, very often) - as do Taranis I find that this last discussion concerns more a classical anthropologic one - just an answer: under some lightings even a black haired Asiat or negroid African could show some reddish hues: you prove only if you do it that some dark haired european have not true black hue - nothing new, there are a lot of variants in homozygotic and more in heterizygotic human people colours from the almost white blond to the very jet dark colour... but here the topic is primarily "Y-R1b"!
no offense!

Ziober
22-06-12, 23:21
Moesan, for say that you said. Better read something before, about the European Phenotypes, acording to the haplogroups. Later, you could recognize the phenotype of an R1b carrier

Taranis
22-06-12, 23:41
Moesan, for say that you said. Better read something before, about the European Phenotypes, acording to the haplogroups. Later, you could recognize the phenotype of an R1b carrier

Ziober, sorry but this really doesn't make sense. The point is that the Y-Haplogroup tells you absolutely nothing about the phenotypical appearance of a person. Let's take some very geographically extreme examples in terms of carriers of R1b to visualize this:

Welsh (~85% R1b):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/21_Welsh_people.png

Hausa (~40% R1b):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Hausa_harpist.jpg

Bashkirs (~47% R1b):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/Yong_bashqorts.jpg

How do you recognize the phenotype of an R1b carrier? You don't, because Y-DNA has no effect on the phenotype. Autosomal DNA is what determines the phenotype.

Knovas
23-06-12, 00:11
People is really confused when start learning genetics. Taranis is right Ziober, I told you before: Haplogroups trace back to ONE ancestor who lived thousands of years ago. It doesn't reflect anything, you must take into account ALL ancestors (autosomal test).

GloomyGonzales
23-06-12, 08:21
Bashkirs (~47% R1b):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/Yong_bashqorts.jpg



Of these guys only the one in the middle is bashkir the rest are just russians dressed in bashkir traditional clothes. Bashkirs have very clear asiatic mongoloid traits.

Below pictures of Bashkirs from Gaina tribe (those famous bashkirs with R1b-U152)

56685669567056715672

Ziober
23-06-12, 10:20
Ziober, sorry but this really doesn't make sense. The point is that the Y-Haplogroup tells you absolutely nothing about the phenotypical appearance of a person. Let's take some very geographically extreme examples in terms of carriers of R1b to visualize this:

We are talking about R1b in Atlantic Europe. Taranis, we are seeing how you are trying to distract by the meanings of some words. But as i said, here we are talking about atlantic R1b, That is one branch leaving R1b1a2a1a1b (if the tree is correct).

Any way, i have been talking how most of british and irish people cames from iberia, and r1b is the genetic marker. I don't want to enter in labyrinths.

Taranis
23-06-12, 10:41
We are talking about R1b in Atlantic Europe. Taranis, we are seeing how you are trying to distract by the meanings of some words. But as i said, here we are talking about atlantic R1b, That is one branch leaving R1b1a2a1a1b.

I am not distracting from anything. I've merely pointed out that Y-chromosomal DNA has no effect on the phenotype, and to visualize this I picked geographically extreme examples of populations which are known bearers of R1b. It does not matter if you are talking about R1b as a whole, or subclades of R1b in the Atlantic region. The statement remains the same.

Ziober
23-06-12, 11:03
Egyptian mummies predate the Greeks. Can you read?

Parts of Eastern Europe lack R1b completely. I would believe a dual migration of R1b from Anatolia through the Caucuses, as well from Northern Africa, through the Iberian Peninsula. As for the statement, which you appear to make with hostility, that Iberian and English R1b is the same - we agree upon. The consideration should be made as to the origin of the haplogroup. It's known that Northern Africa was light skinned, and and only became mixed with slaves when Egyptian civilization collapsed.

I think so.

Ziober
23-06-12, 11:07
I am not distracting from anything. I've merely pointed out that Y-chromosomal DNA has no effect on the phenotype, and to visualize this I picked geographically extreme examples of populations which are known bearers of R1b. It does not matter if you are talking about R1b as a whole, or subclades of R1b in the Atlantic region. The statement remains the same.

If you think that R1b has no effect on the phenotype, i have nothing to tell you...

Taranis
23-06-12, 11:59
If you think that R1b has no effect on the phenotype, i have nothing to tell you...

Well, remember that R1b is an Y-Haplogroup. This means we are only talking about DNA on the Y-chromosome. Women have no Y-chromosome. If there was some phenotypical feature that was defined by the Y-chromosome, then obviously women wouldn't have it.

Ziober
23-06-12, 12:08
Well, remember that R1b is an Y-Haplogroup. This means we are only talking about DNA on the Y-chromosome. Women have no Y-chromosome. If there was some phenotypical feature that was defined by the Y-chromosome, then obviously women wouldn't have it.

I agree it's only Y-crhomosome, but r1b has relationship with alleles carried on different chromosomes in the same individual wich brings to it phenotypics characters.

Knovas
23-06-12, 14:26
Another example are African American males. You can find thousands of them carrying the most common R1b branches in Europe, and they look no way European. Haplogroups are helpful to trace ancient migrations, but they cannot tell about the full inheritance (hence, no phenotypical information could be extracted).

MOESAN
24-06-12, 21:44
Shit! I lost the post I had written with all my hart (and my brain) to support the poor Ziober -
I 'll do it again tomorrow, just I say: your logic, Knovas and Taranis, appears to me basic and somewhat distorded about chromosoms (Y, autosomals) and mt DNA links...

MOESAN
25-06-12, 13:12
"my heart" (gast ar hast! sorry)

Knovas and Taranis, you are right at first sight; it is true that mt DNA HGs, Y DNA HGs and autosomal genes are not linked one together by themselves, being on different chromosomes (Y, autosomals) or in cells (mt) - even for autosomals, they are dispersed on a lot of chromosomes, so for an indiviual, no link OK - but there is a statistical link (even if elastic) between all these genes at a collective level -

the only ways that a previous distributions of all these genes could drastically change in a population are:
hazard drift in a small population (founder effect), the case of ancient small families or tribes : it can have a strong result on Y-DNA, very less on the autosomals as a whole – less effect in today big populations – this is well shown by some african tribes and Bashkirs, I think -
social-political drift linked to male elites taking wives outside of their ethny leading to an over-representation of some Y-HGs : it seams it could have played a heavy enough role in « barbarians » times, more than today, but in what proportions ? This could be too a part of the explanation for Africans Y-R1b and Bashkirs, joined to the hazard cause of drift ? -
natural environmental selection (pressure) : it can not change all the genome and if it played surely an evident role at the sunrise of modern humanity it does not modify the external phenotypical genes to much in the present times (i do not expect a too big evolution about skin colour in future, by instance, but by « racial » crossings, and partially, by social classes selection – we know that Cro-Magnon was not the better equipped type for survive in cold climate and nevertheless they took the advantage on better fitted Neanderthals, according to scientists, so adaptation capacity by intelligence is not too new for Man -
about Y-DNA providing advantages or disadvantages, I wait knowing more (not only newly written papers « scooplike ») – these effect could affect the Y-DNA pool distribution more than the external phenotypes


it is true that in South Western Europe, the autosomals could have been changed at a noticeable level by a constant flow of genes by females of the Mediterranean shores (some surveys, outdated maybe, said that) between final Paleo and Neolithic , flow that could be very difficult to discover by archeology: some evolution of metric means on Mesolithic skeletons that show considerable gracilization and oter modifications of face and body could be the result of South and Eastern demic influences (contacts) upon the previous cromagnoid stock and not only the effect of internal mutational evolution... ? (I keep the capellids or brünns elements aside for their influences by crossing seam to me very evident and not confusing with evolution) - I confess I need more detailed and up-to-date well sampled surveys about mt-DNA in these areas (I have not too much money to purchase all the papers edited today) – nevertheless some evident phenotypical links appear within Iberians and Atlantic european shores, hard to evaluate very precisely but evident yet – less evident for more continental regions of Western Europe –
a bet : my present thought is that spite of some drift due to social male domination (the Steppes people showed social tendencies I link to that) the western dominating pool of Y-DNA in Europe is ancient in place (without speaking about later internal movements in closer times of History) – I see no reason for far coming Steppes tribes could overflow an already well developped population (about demographics) of neolithic peoples and neolithicized mesolithic ones. So if the western european males are european for a long time, I understand the phenotypical differences between regions without an only strictly female stocks explanation -

Taranis
25-06-12, 15:20
Moesan, you have a point about autosomal and mitochondrial DNA, yes. But that doesn't change anything about the fact that:

1) there is no such thing as an "R1b race".

2) the origins of Y-Haplogroup R1b are clearly outside of Europe.

3) the modern dominance of R1b in Western Europe is the result of a founder effect during the late(st) Neolithic / early Bronze Age (again, Moeasan, if we are looking at mitochondrial/autosomal DNA, the picture is a very different one).

4) R1b in Western Europe (the clade R1b-L51 and it's "son" clades) is phylogenetically tied with other subclades of R1b found in Anatolia (L584) and the Balkans (ht35). By what route R1b entered Western Europe is unclear as of the moment.

5) the hypothesis that the distribution of R1b can be tied with the expansion from the Iberian Glacial Refuge at the end of the ice age has been thoroughly debunked at this point. Who claims otherwise, and I am very sorry that I have to say this, must be either unaware of the research results of the past four or so years (which, I hope, shouldn't be the case anymore after reading this), or wishes to consciously ignore these research results (for whatever reason).

Ziober
25-06-12, 20:30
"my heart" (gast ar hast! sorry)

Knovas and Taranis, you are right at first sight; it is true that mt DNA HGs, Y DNA HGs and autosomal genes are not linked one together by themselves, being on different chromosomes (Y, autosomals) or in cells (mt) - even for autosomals, they are dispersed on a lot of chromosomes, so for an indiviual, no link OK - but there is a statistical link (even if elastic) between all these genes at a collective level -

the only ways that a previous distributions of all these genes could drastically change in a population are:
hazard drift in a small population (founder effect), the case of ancient small families or tribes : it can have a strong result on Y-DNA, very less on the autosomals as a whole – less effect in today big populations – this is well shown by some african tribes and Bashkirs, I think -
social-political drift linked to male elites taking wives outside of their ethny leading to an over-representation of some Y-HGs : it seams it could have played a heavy enough role in « barbarians » times, more than today, but in what proportions ? This could be too a part of the explanation for Africans Y-R1b and Bashkirs, joined to the hazard cause of drift ? -
natural environmental selection (pressure) : it can not change all the genome and if it played surely an evident role at the sunrise of modern humanity it does not modify the external phenotypical genes to much in the present times (i do not expect a too big evolution about skin colour in future, by instance, but by « racial » crossings, and partially, by social classes selection – we know that Cro-Magnon was not the better equipped type for survive in cold climate and nevertheless they took the advantage on better fitted Neanderthals, according to scientists, so adaptation capacity by intelligence is not too new for Man -
about Y-DNA providing advantages or disadvantages, I wait knowing more (not only newly written papers « scooplike ») – these effect could affect the Y-DNA pool distribution more than the external phenotypes


it is true that in South Western Europe, the autosomals could have been changed at a noticeable level by a constant flow of genes by females of the Mediterranean shores (some surveys, outdated maybe, said that) between final Paleo and Neolithic , flow that could be very difficult to discover by archeology: some evolution of metric means on Mesolithic skeletons that show considerable gracilization and oter modifications of face and body could be the result of South and Eastern demic influences (contacts) upon the previous cromagnoid stock and not only the effect of internal mutational evolution... ? (I keep the capellids or brünns elements aside for their influences by crossing seam to me very evident and not confusing with evolution) - I confess I need more detailed and up-to-date well sampled surveys about mt-DNA in these areas (I have not too much money to purchase all the papers edited today) – nevertheless some evident phenotypical links appear within Iberians and Atlantic european shores, hard to evaluate very precisely but evident yet – less evident for more continental regions of Western Europe –
a bet : my present thought is that spite of some drift due to social male domination (the Steppes people showed social tendencies I link to that) the western dominating pool of Y-DNA in Europe is ancient in place (without speaking about later internal movements in closer times of History) – I see no reason for far coming Steppes tribes could overflow an already well developped population (about demographics) of neolithic peoples and neolithicized mesolithic ones. So if the western european males are european for a long time, I understand the phenotypical differences between regions without an only strictly female stocks explanation -

Thanks Moesan.

Ziober
26-06-12, 21:12
http://ifc.dpz.es/recursos/publicaciones/29/54/26koch.pdf

Ziober
27-06-12, 17:37
R1b can be used as marker about celtic expansion. I'll try to explain the common characteristics in Red Nordic ethnicity (the most important ethnicity in celt people). Not only we must look at hair or eyes colour. There are some important features...

http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af129/txumi_ledauno/r2.jpg

- Pheomelanin produces red skin in ancestrial ones, rosy and bloody skin, in mixes with other ethnicities, the bloody appearance tends to retreat to the face, and in the face, to cheeks, ears, in rest of body is voiced in parts where the bones are next to surface. People with a tendency to blush, have Red Nordic contributions.

- head; high and vertical frontal bone with prominent forebrains and prominent temporal bones. Larger cranial capacity (frontal bone) and sideward (temporal bones).

- Small pupils, dark blue colour in pure individuals (the dark green is by mixing whit brown eyed ancestors, light green needs the ice blue colour of I haplogroup)

- Strong jaw, squared, broad and robust jaw. Prominent and sharp chin, which seems to end in a fleshy ball

- Small mouth with extremely thin and narrow lips. The outline of the lips is not clearly defined, nor differenced from the rest of the skin.

- Others; Accelerated metabolism. Neoteny: very youthful look. Higher lactose and alcohol tolerance than any other ethnicities. Armenized RN have their orange hair get darker, turning to red and then auburn, while when mixed with White Nordids they have a sandy, somewhat flaming hair colour.




even if every thing is linked in Man (and other problems too, very often) - as do Taranis I find that this last discussion concerns more a classical anthropologic one - just an answer: under some lightings even a black haired Asiat or negroid African could show some reddish hues: you prove only if you do it that some dark haired european have not true black hue - nothing new, there are a lot of variants in homozygotic and more in heterizygotic human people colours from the almost white blond to the very jet dark colour... but here the topic is primarily "Y-R1b"!
no offense!

Those aren't hues. I had seen all him coat burning in front of me. It can be show under halogen lights too.

Ziober
27-06-12, 18:00
In spite of that, i don't want to center my explanations in phenotypes. i'll talk about celt expansions. I have noticed that mostly people only talk about one route of celt expansion... Why don't 2 or 3 or...

branches from a proto-protocelt populations, wich were divided in protocelts populations before their knowledge culminate in what is now known as Celtic culture. Such knowledge would evolve toward the same destination, they had a common base of knowledge.

If not, i suspect that proto-celt core is in SW iberia. By mounds of evidence.

MOESAN
27-06-12, 22:55
Moesan, you have a point about autosomal and mitochondrial DNA, yes. But that doesn't change anything about the fact that:

1) there is no such thing as an "R1b race".

2) the origins of Y-Haplogroup R1b are clearly outside of Europe.

3) the modern dominance of R1b in Western Europe is the result of a founder effect during the late(st) Neolithic / early Bronze Age (again, Moeasan, if we are looking at mitochondrial/autosomal DNA, the picture is a very different one).

4) R1b in Western Europe (the clade R1b-L51 and it's "son" clades) is phylogenetically tied with other subclades of R1b found in Anatolia (L584) and the Balkans (ht35). By what route R1b entered Western Europe is unclear as of the moment.



5) the hypothesis that the distribution of R1b can be tied with the expansion from the Iberian Glacial Refuge at the end of the ice age has been thoroughly debunked at this point. Who claims otherwise, and I am very sorry that I have to say this, must be either unaware of the research results of the past four or so years (which, I hope, shouldn't be the case anymore after reading this), or wishes to consciously ignore these research results (for whatever reason).


I never said there was a specific Y-R1b "race" (the same for whatever Y-DNA big HG or subHG and any "race") - I think just that at a time point of History, a dominant Y-HG % can be associated with dominant phenotypic (among the autosomals) % or a steady enough admixture and that for centuries the propagation og this Y-HG can go along with the propagation of this admixture, even if in detail the %s can fluctuate - sure things change but not passing from 100% to 0% or the contrary in an wink - ma first aim was to say: it is almost naive believing and saying that "there is NO link and there HAS BEEN NEVER any link between some HGs and some autosomals genes (and too with some mt HGs)" -
long time ago I 've agreed ('accepted' would be better said because I 'm not a molecular DNA studies searcher)
that Y-R1b came from Asia - It changes nothing in the problem of dates we have here -
I would be very glad if it was proved that R1b came with I-E people at the Bronze Age (linguistically it would fit better to my believings) but even if I do not reject the possible I-E origin for our occidental R1bs I am still VERY AMAZED BY SO A DISTRIBUTION IN WESTERN EUROPE CAUSED BY A FOUNDER EFFECT PRODUCING IN A SO SHORT TIME A SO RICH BUNCH OF SUB-HGs, taking the strong side over Y-I through SOUTH AND NORTH at the same time or almost- so I feal pushed to think that maybe the I-E arrival or the Y-R1b (independantly) arrival could have found place earlier than thought by the most of people now...I said the scenario of R1b propagation could suit more than a period - I am a modest hobbyist and I never said the truth was with me: it is just a fealing in front of some geographical an demographic facts - I 'm not trying to do adepts! + As I already said I have a poor confidence in STRs datations -
concerning mtDNA, it seams to me that the distribution of mt HGs is disconnected from the other genes for a long time and surely from almost all the Y-DNA HGs... not by the fact that there would not be any statistical link but by the fact that the mutation rates are very different; we could consider that mtDNA (mother mediated) would be steadier, less quickly mixed with other mt populations but we see exactly the contrary: a level distribution in the whole Europe, or almost... mt DNA seams even more disconnected from autosomals

to conclude, I ALMOST agree with you but I wait facts that can make this theory less amazing concerning demography - founder effects need some conditions to be produced (low densities of population by instance and great dispersal ) even the male elite theory (very valid indeed) can not explain total reaplacement of male genetic pools -
with all my respect

sparkey
27-06-12, 23:25
R1b can be used as marker about celtic expansion.

Don't you want to narrow that down to subclades? Because a cursory glance at the few R1b P25- samples we have shows that R1b as a whole isn't Celtic.


- Small pupils, dark blue colour in pure individuals (the dark green is by mixing whit brown eyed ancestors, light green needs the ice blue colour of I haplogroup)

OK, even after ignoring all of your phenotypes that you like to associate with R1b, this doesn't make much sense. The spread of blue eyes into Europe (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_of_europe.shtml#eye_colour) maps pretty poorly with R1b... to me, it matches more closely to certain subclades of R1a+N1c, and I1. Since I1 has a young TMRCA, and probably didn't really expand until it was absorbed into a population that also contained R1a, that makes me think that the spread of blue eyes into Europe is probably linked to an R1a-dominant population. But even if I'm wrong, and, say, blue eyes are older than the westward spread of R1a, then R1b is still a poor match with the spread of blue eyes.


In spite of that, i don't want to center my explanations in phenotypes. i'll talk about celt expansions. I have noticed that mostly people only talk about one route of celt expansion... Why don't 2 or 3 or...

branches from a proto-protocelt populations, wich were divided in protocelts populations before their knowledge culminate in what is now known as Celtic culture. Such knowledge would evolve toward the same destination, they had a common base of knowledge.

If not, i suspect that proto-celt core is in SW iberia. By mounds of evidence.

Don't get your hopes up for a "single-origin-out-of-SW-Iberia" theory. I do, however, think that Celtic peoples are more ancient to the Atlantic region than the "purely-Halstatt/La-Tene" theory would suggest. So I think you're getting at an important point, at least, when you mention that there were probably multiple important routes of Celtic expansion. My initial thought is that Celtic languages evolved somewhere in Central or Western Europe from a common proto-Italo-Celtic, which had drifted from rather farther east. (I know that's not very specific, but it's tough to get more specific than that for now.) And after that, an Atlantic spread and a later Alpine Iron Age spread were both important. That's my guess for now, anyway... I think it fits nicely with the modern distributions of R1b-P312 and its subclades, as well as what we know about the Celtic languages and their complex familial relationships to one another.

sparkey
27-06-12, 23:54
to conclude, I ALMOST agree with you but I wait facts that can make this theory less amazing concerning demography - founder effects need some conditions to be produced (low densities of population by instance and great dispersal ) even the male elite theory (very valid indeed) can not explain total reaplacement of male genetic pools -
with all my respect

On the contrary, I think that genetic drift is often underrated, at least on the Y-line. Keep in mind that most ancient European cultures (and most ancient worldwide cultures for that matter) encouraged polygyny, but not polyandry. I think that's why we see rapid drift on the Y line, but not the mtDNA line.

Think about it this way: If a culture encourages an average of just under 2 wives per man, then we can expect about 1/2 of men every generation to pass on their Y line, with many more (say 9/10) women passing on their mtDNA line. So, in a generation of 200, we can expect the next generation of 200 to have 90 of the original mtDNA lines, but only 50 of the original Y lines. After 5 generations, 22 of the original Y lines have survived. After 10, 14 have. After 50, 4 have. Compare to the mtDNA line, which has 65 of the original lines after 5 generations, 48 after 10, and 16 after 50.

Goga
28-06-12, 19:39
But even if I'm wrong, and, say, blue eyes are older than the westward spread of R1a, then R1b is still a poor match with the spread of blue eyes.According to this study: "Haplogroup R1a as the Proto Indo-Europeans and the Legendary Aryans as Witnessed by the DNA of Their Current Descendants" (you can find .pdf file on google) R1a existed in Europe 10,000 - 9,000 years ago.

When R1a (and R1b) migrated into Europe, R1* had a West Asian / Gedrosia aDNA identity / character . Later it mixed with the local European population and it transformed into an unique European identity.


That's why NorthWest European and West Asian aDNA are very very close to each other.

Goga
28-06-12, 19:43
It's even possible that R1a was in Western Europe even before R1b or that R1a and R1b migrated into Europe from NorthWest Iranian Plateau ( / Kurdistan) at the same time.

Taranis
04-07-12, 10:09
If not, i suspect that proto-celt core is in SW iberia. By mounds of evidence.

I must second what Sparkey said: do not get your hopes high for such an idea.

This is a map (http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/282/FalileyevMap.pdf?sequence=12) that was published by Alexander Falileyev of the University of Aberystwyth (http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/handle/2160/282) in Wales. It shows the distribution of (Continental) Celtic place names inside the domain of the Roman Empire (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Roman_Empire_Trajan_117AD.png). As you can easily see from it, Celtic place names are most abundant in the north of the Iberian peninsula, rather than the southwest. How likely is it then that the Celtic-speaking peoples originated in the Southwest and then migrated across half of Europe from there?


According to this study: "Haplogroup R1a as the Proto Indo-Europeans and the Legendary Aryans as Witnessed by the DNA of Their Current Descendants" (you can find .pdf file on google) R1a existed in Europe 10,000 - 9,000 years ago.

When R1a (and R1b) migrated into Europe, R1* had a West Asian / Gedrosia aDNA identity / character . Later it mixed with the local European population and it transformed into an unique European identity.


That's why NorthWest European and West Asian aDNA are very very close to each other.

Goga, the idea R1a = Indo-Europeans is quite a bit of a simplification of the matter, and the meme "one Haplogroup = one ethnic group" is certainly wrong.

Also, R1* as the original Indo-European Haplogroup is certainly wrong, as it vastly predates the presumed age of the Indo-European languages (regardless of which scenario you prefer) by many millennia.

Goga
04-07-12, 13:15
Goga, the idea R1a = Indo-Europeans is quite a bit of a simplification of the matter, and the meme "one Haplogroup = one ethnic group" is certainly wrong.

Also, R1* as the original Indo-European Haplogroup is certainly wrong, as it vastly predates the presumed age of the Indo-European languages (regardless of which scenario you prefer) by many millennia.Exactly! It's even possible that R1a folks got Indo-Europised by R1b & J2a folks from the Balkans.

Or that those folks (R1b & J2) were first part of the West-Asian Maykop culture and influenced and Indo-Europised Yamnaya folks in the Steppes. So that makes R1b (together with J2a) the original speakers of a Proto-Indo-European language.

I'm starting to believe that proto-Indo-Europeans were hg. R1b, J2 and & G2 folks involved somewhere around the Caucasus..

Degredado
04-07-12, 18:01
I always get the impression that R1a guys on internet forums tend to be very protective about their "exclusive" "Indo-Europeanness"... :thinking:

Ziober
07-07-12, 00:29
I must second what Sparkey said: do not get your hopes high for such an idea.

This is a map (http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/282/FalileyevMap.pdf?sequence=12) that was published by Alexander Falileyev of the University of Aberystwyth (http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/handle/2160/282) in Wales. It shows the distribution of (Continental) Celtic place names inside the domain of the Roman Empire (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Roman_Empire_Trajan_117AD.png). As you can easily see from it, Celtic place names are most abundant in the north of the Iberian peninsula, rather than the southwest. How likely is it then that the Celtic-speaking peoples originated in the Southwest and then migrated across half of Europe from there?

Por favor, acabemos con la DESINFORMACION. Aquí hay gente inteligente que se comporta como si no lo fuera. Eso simplemente me lleva a pensar, que su comportamiento está dirigido a entorpecer la comunicación, a ocultar la verdad, a desinformar. Pues no señores, los británicos no son arios, son ibéricos.

¿Qué clase de argumento es ese de que el origen celta no puede estar en Iberia porque hay más topónimos celtas en centroeuropa?

¿No hablan más personas español en América que en España? ¿No hay mas pelirrojos en USA que en Irlanda? ¿ no tiene más hojas un árbol en la copa que cerca del suelo?

El trabajo de B. Sykes se basa en 10000 muestras, veamos estos otros trabajos propagandísticos como andan de muestras....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO__hE1wNQU

Taranis
08-07-12, 14:16
Before you continue to accuse me of spreading false information, I'd politely suggest that you read the following papers and get a bit more up to date about the history of R1b:

1) "A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for European Paternal Lineages" (January 2010)
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1000285

2) "A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe" (August 2010)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3039512/?tool=pubmed

3) "Ancient DNA suggests the leading role played by men in the Neolithic dissemination" (August 2011)
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/10/24/1113061108.abstract

4) "Emerging Genetic Patterns of the European Neolithic: Perspectives From a Late Neolithic Bell Beaker Burial Site in Germany" (March 2012)
http://uni-kiel.academia.edu/CherylMakarewicz/Papers/1663118/Emerging_genetic_patterns_of_the_European_Neolithi c_perspectives_from_a_Late_Neolithic_Bell_Beaker_b urial_site_in_Germany

Regarding Bryan Sykes, you are probably refering to this book (http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Isles-Bryan-Sykes/dp/0593056531/). It is correct that in that book, he suggested that R1b originated on the Iberian peninsula. But, he published this book in 2006. He could not have known about the research that happened in the meantime when he wrote that book.

If you have finished reading the papers above then you will realize that it is very unlikely that R1b originated on the Iberian peninsula, and that is just as unlikely that R1b entered Western Europe from the Iberian peninsula.

Regarding the term "Aryan" (by that, I presume, you mean "Indo-European"), it's very probable that the people who brought R1b to Western Europe were Indo-Europeans themselves.

On the origin of the Celts, I'd like to repeat what Sparkey said, because I think that it summarizes the situation pretty neatly:


I do, however, think that Celtic peoples are more ancient to the Atlantic region than the "purely-Halstatt/La-Tene" theory would suggest. So I think you're getting at an important point, at least, when you mention that there were probably multiple important routes of Celtic expansion. My initial thought is that Celtic languages evolved somewhere in Central or Western Europe from a common proto-Italo-Celtic, which had drifted from rather farther east. (I know that's not very specific, but it's tough to get more specific than that for now.) And after that, an Atlantic spread and a later Alpine Iron Age spread were both important. That's my guess for now, anyway... I think it fits nicely with the modern distributions of R1b-P312 and its subclades, as well as what we know about the Celtic languages and their complex familial relationships to one another.

MOESAN
09-07-12, 14:55
[QUOTE=Ziober;396709]Pues no señores, los británicos no son arios, son ibéricos.

¿Qué clase de argumento es ese de que el origen celta no puede estar en Iberia porque hay más topónimos celtas en centroeuropa?
¿No hablan más personas español en América que en España? ¿No hay mas pelirrojos en USA que en Irlanda? ¿ no tiene más hojas un árbol en la copa que cerca del suelo?


No offense, just a remark: I do not understand your way of thinking! what is the link between the number of a present day language speakers and the core region of the ancient placenames in the ancestral place of this language? did the Spaniards erase their spanish placenames in Iberia when carrying their castellano da America??? No, I think- the only way to celtic placenames to be scarce in South Iberia is that Celts ware absent before, or were EARLY swept out from there without being dense there at anytime... that do not correspond to their apparently strong position in Iberia in Antiquity -
the single other explanation could be (when I try to follow you) that Celts colonized Southern Iberia at first time, BUT found (an) already settled population(s) there and already named old places AND colonized after that almost empty regions in Northern Iberia: it seams to me not to realistic for I know...

Ziober
10-07-12, 13:26
Estimados moesan y taranis.

Answer to Moesan:

With these examples i'd tried to explain that a place with most of something, don't means that this place was the origins of something.
Don't spaniards but iberian proto-celts don't need to delete anything. Just .they were the disorganized homeless from the end of Tartessos. In the begining of celt expansion, they don't want to stand long time in places where the sea can flood the land. So another tartessian peoples done, proto-celts not. They runaway. For understand proto-celts origins reading "cogotas" a vetton clan.

Taranis, nuestro mayor desencuentro parece estar en las fechas. Para usted r1b vino tardiamente, para nosotros, estaba en iberia desde el paleolitico

http://lacomunidad.elpais.com/bronceatlantico/2011/11/6/las-pistas-del-subclado-r1b1

sparkey
10-07-12, 17:43
Taranis, nuestro mayor desencuentro parece estar en las fechas. Para usted r1b vino tardiamente, para nosotros, estaba en iberia desde el paleolitico

http://lacomunidad.elpais.com/bronceatlantico/2011/11/6/las-pistas-del-subclado-r1b1

This was actually a rather interesting read, but I'm not sure it really supports anything you've been saying. If I'm understanding correctly (I don't speak Spanish), they present an objection to Maciamo's theories on the basis that Y-line drift overstates the impact of migrations, and that they don't expect this sort of drift to stand a chance in the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age, only the Neolithic and Paleolithic. They also engage Renfrew and Oppenheimer, basically accepting Oppenheimer's conclusion of an Iberia-to-Britain expansion of R1b, but indicating that they don't know how R1b could have expanded to Spain in the first place.

The main problem with this piece is that it doesn't engage L11 subclades. If it did, it would be clear that their acceptance of anything Oppenheimer concluded is nonsense. After considering the discrepancy between subclade distributions, it becomes clear that British R1b does not fit an out-of-Iberia model. They also fail to engage TMRCA calculations and ancient DNA studies (many of which have been performed since it was written), which support Maciamo's theory the best of the lot (although a case could be made for Renfrew, or a none-of-the-above option... just certainly not Oppenheimer).

I should also note that their declaration of YDNA as "neutral" in terms of selection is probably incorrect, as well as their assumption that migrating populations suddenly absorbed native populations, rather than gradually. As a result, their mathematical model doesn't show a lot other than that YDNA drifts a lot quicker than mtDNA, and overestimates certain migrations a lot more. But that's OK in Maciamo's theory, and in other theories, and we already knew that.

MOESAN
10-07-12, 23:11
Estimados moesan y taranis.

Answer to Moesan:

With these examples i'd tried to explain that a place with most of something, don't means that this place was the origins of something.
Don't spaniards but iberian proto-celts don't need to delete anything. Just .they were the disorganized homeless from the end of Tartessos. In the begining of celt expansion, they don't want to stand long time in places where the sea can flood the land. So another tartessian peoples done, proto-celts not. They runaway. For understand proto-celts origins reading "cogotas" a vetton clan.

Taranis, nuestro mayor desencuentro parece estar en las fechas. Para usted r1b vino tardiamente, para nosotros, estaba en iberia desde el paleolitico

http://lacomunidad.elpais.com/bronceatlantico/2011/11/6/las-pistas-del-subclado-r1b1

sorry but it looks as a pre-concluded reasonment: you want to justify the low density of celtic placenames in Iberia by an unsteady way of life ran by a "fugitive population" of Celts fearing the searises? my maps of Andalusia do not show me low level lands, do they? -
and as said by Sparkey and yet by others, the present day knowledges about the late SNPs of Y-R1b do not show us a "out of Iberia" for the bulk of the R1bs in the Isles and in other places of Central and North-Eastern Europe - I 'm still unsure about the timing of the arrival of Y-R1b but this hesitation does not erase theses facts...

Ziober
11-07-12, 13:29
sorry but it looks as a pre-concluded reasonment: you want to justify the low density of celtic placenames in Iberia by an unsteady way of life ran by a "fugitive population" of Celts fearing the searises? my maps of Andalusia do not show me low level lands, do they? -and as said by Sparkey and yet by others, the present day knowledges about the late SNPs of Y-R1b do not show us a "out of Iberia" for the bulk of the R1bs in the Isles and in other places of Central and North-Eastern Europe - I 'm still unsure about the timing of the arrival of Y-R1b but this hesitation does not erase theses facts...I haven't thought about fugitives in fear. Just peoples going to search safety.There is in "Golfo de Cadiz" an extended depression. "depresion betica o del Guadalquivir". Which was affected by mare-moto a few times. One of it destroyed Tartessos. http://otraorillahistoria.foroactivo.net/t2274-la-depresion-del-guadalquivir http://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depresi%C3%B3n_B%C3%A9tica#section_1

Taranis
12-07-12, 08:53
I haven't thought about fugitives in fear. Just peoples going to search safety.There is in "Golfo de Cadiz" an extended depression. "depresion betica o del Guadalquivir". Which was affected by mare-moto a few times. One of it destroyed Tartessos. http://otraorillahistoria.foroactivo.net/t2274-la-depresion-del-guadalquivir http://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depresi%C3%B3n_B%C3%A9tica#section_1

This is impossible. Tartessos still existed in the time of Herodotus (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Herodotus_world_map-es.svg/1000px-Herodotus_world_map-es.svg.png?uselang=es), who lived in the 5th century BC. If there was a seaquake that occured in later times, it would have been recorded by ancient Greek authors. Sorry, but I'm under the impression you are just making this up to have a specious pretense to place the origin of the Celts in southwestern Iberia.

By the way, in my opinion it is more likely that the city of Tartessos was destroyed by the Phoenicians, who are well-known to have occupied the south of Iberia, and who founded cities like Cadiz, Malaga and Cartagena.

zanipolo
12-07-12, 09:52
Around 1100 BCE Phoenician merchants founded the trading colony of Gadir or Gades (modern day Cádiz). In the 8th century BCE the first Greek colonies, such as Emporion (modern Empúries), were founded along the Mediterranean coast on the East, leaving the south coast to the Phoenicians. The Greeks are responsible for the name Iberia, after the river Iber (Ebro).

The natives of Tarshish were the original Celtic groups in Iberia and these appear to be the ancestors of the Basques also. However, Basque YDNA is R1b and their YDNA may have been an earlier form from K as we find the same K2 form among the Welsh and in Tyre and Malta. Tarshish ran naval expeditions from there across the Atlantic for centuries (see Cyrus Gordon’s work Before Columbus, Touchstone Press, 1972).

The K2 is now refered to T1, but actually it must be T1a as T1b is only in the north.

i doubt the phoenicians fully destroyed them , but I guess traded with them to relay goods to britain

Taranis
12-07-12, 11:07
The natives of Tarshish were the original Celtic groups in Iberia and these appear to be the ancestors of the Basques also. However, Basque YDNA is R1b and their YDNA may have been an earlier form from K as we find the same K2 form among the Welsh and in Tyre and Malta. Tarshish ran naval expeditions from there across the Atlantic for centuries (see Cyrus Gordon’s work Before Columbus, Touchstone Press, 1972).

Across the Atlantic? That's certainly nonsense. :startled:

By the way, it is also by no means clear if the Tartessians were really Celtic. What I mean is this: yes, John Koch of the university of Cardiff proposed that the "Tartessian" language may have been Celtic, but this language is known from the Algarve. The civilization and culture of Tartessos, however, was located in the Guadalquivir region in Andalusia. It is explained here (http://webs.ono.com/documenta/ib1_en.htm).


i doubt the phoenicians fully destroyed them , but I guess traded with them to relay goods to britain

The Phoenicians (or, more accurately, the Carthaginians) conquered the areas of modern-day Andalusia.

zanipolo
12-07-12, 12:20
Across the Atlantic? That's certainly nonsense. :startled:

By the way, it is also by no means clear if the Tartessians were really Celtic. What I mean is this: yes, John Koch of the university of Cardiff proposed that the "Tartessian" language may have been Celtic, but this language is known from the Algarve. The civilization and culture of Tartessos, however, was located in the Guadalquivir region in Andalusia. It is explained here (http://webs.ono.com/documenta/ib1_en.htm).



The Phoenicians (or, more accurately, the Carthaginians) conquered the areas of modern-day Andalusia.

across the atlantic is a term used from iberia to britain without landing on french soil.

here is more on phoenicians, clearly before they became cartagians
http://phoenicia.org/canaancornwall.html


below is the site where in 2008 they found undisturbed phoencian urn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padstow (http://phoenicia.org/canaancornwall.html)

JFWR
12-07-12, 16:01
Wrong. Basque is a pre-indoeuropean language. The R1b people spoke indo-european languages who split into the Germanic, Celtic, Latin languages

71 percent of Basque are R1b. Not all members of R1b retained their Indo-European languages, and not all Indo-European language are related to R1b (Germanic peoples are heavily associated with I).

Ziober
12-07-12, 16:48
This is impossible. Tartessos still existed in the time of Herodotus (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Herodotus_world_map-es.svg/1000px-Herodotus_world_map-es.svg.png?uselang=es), who lived in the 5th century BC. If there was a seaquake that occured in later times, it would have been recorded by ancient Greek authors. Sorry, but I'm under the impression you are just making this up to have a specious pretense to place the origin of the Celts in southwestern Iberia.

By the way, in my opinion it is more likely that the city of Tartessos was destroyed by the Phoenicians, who are well-known to have occupied the south of Iberia, and who founded cities like Cadiz, Malaga and Cartagena.

Taranis, the tartessos which you are talking about is only the decaying remains of a civilization comparable to greek one. Tartessos is a geographic nomenclature, not cultural at all.

As i said, there was at least 3 branches divided from the finish of Atlantis. One of those, remained near to the colapse, another one exploring by navy the west facade of Iberia (all coast of actual Portugal) and settlement that places: Portugal, Galicia, Asturias, British isles...etc. The last of those should be which go to interior, forming the Vetton clan as others clans.

Taramis, i can see how for you, all cultural transitions was made by kill peoples (saxons killing britons, phoenicians killing Tartessos... oh my God!!!) I can't, i can't, i can't believe that.

As well say Zanipolo, phoenicians found Gadir, because tartessians were pacifics, generous and rich peoples, Very good thing for trading. Humanity is not so worst like you and others like you want to show it.

Facts about ancient Tartessos from 3.000 years ago :

There are too writes about Tartessos from Greeks, romans, asirians...

http://terraeantiqvae.blogia.com/2005/031901-sevilla.-dos-estelas-tartesicas-halladas-en-el-campo.php


http://georgeosdiazmontexano.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/laciudadmasantiguadeeuropa.pdf

Ziober
12-07-12, 17:35
71 percent of Basque are R1b. Not all members of R1b retained their Indo-European languages, and not all Indo-European language are related to R1b (Germanic peoples are heavily associated with I).

As far as i know, basques are near to 90% r1b.

Knovas
12-07-12, 17:36
71 percent of Basque are R1b. Not all members of R1b retained their Indo-European languages, and not all Indo-European language are related to R1b (Germanic peoples are heavily associated with I).
Haplogroup I as whole represents a Paleolithic remmant in Europe. So the argument for R1b is also valid for haplogroup I: they didn't retain their pre-indoEuropean language/languages, that simple. Basques did despite the fact they have the highest R1b percent, but modern frequencies tells us very little. Haplogroups (specially Y-DNA) are very easy to replace in a few generations.

I personally wouldn't link any Indo-European language with Haplogroup I for obvious reasons.

Taranis
12-07-12, 19:13
Taranis, the tartessos which you are talking about is only the decaying remains of a civilization comparable to greek one. Tartessos is a geographic nomenclature, not cultural at all.

You're wrong. To the ancient Greeks, Tartessos was a kingdom or city state (or possibly both). Archaeologists associated the so-called "Orientalizing Culture" (called "orientalizing" due to the visible cultural influence from the Phoenicians) of the early iron age of Andalusia with Tartessos.


As i said, there was at least 3 branches divided from the finish of Atlantis. One of those, remained near to the colapse, another one exploring by navy the west facade of Iberia (all coast of actual Portugal) and settlement that places: Portugal, Galicia, Asturias, British isles...etc. The last of those should be which go to interior, forming the Vetton clan as others clans.

Ziober, I'm giving you a very good advice: this is not a place for dispersing fantasy stories about your "Atlantean" racial vision because that's basically, through the course of this thread, what you're trying to tell us. And my patience as a moderator for such is about to be spent.

What I have to add that I do not understand is this: Spanish history is as amazing and as fascinating as it is in reality. There is no need to spin fancy tales about an ahistorical, mythical 'Atlantean' past.


Taramis, i can see how for you, all cultural transitions was made by kill peoples (saxons killing britons, phoenicians killing Tartessos... oh my God!!!) I can't, i can't, i can't believe that.

Did Alexander the Great conquer the Achaemenid Empire through peace and harmony? Did the Romans conquer the entire Mediterranean through peace and harmony? Did the Umayyad Caliphate conquer Iberia through peace and harmony? Obviously not.

As for Tartessos, this should be obvious:

- Herodotus mentions the city of Tartessos as existing in the 5th century BC.

- By the early 3rd century BC, the Carthaginians (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/CarthageMap.png) had conquered the south of Iberia.

- When the Romans seized these areas of Spain (at the end of the Second Punic War), there is no more mentioning of a city of Tartessos, however the Turdetani people are mentioned by various authors as descendants of the Tartessians. The only conclusion is that the city/kingdom of Tartessos was destroyed by the Carthaginians in the intermediate period.


As well say Zanipolo, phoenicians found Gadir, because tartessians were pacifics, generous and rich peoples, Very good thing for trading. Humanity is not so worst like you and others like you want to show it.

The Phoenicians (and their heirs, the Carthaginians) were a great civilization with great achievements (especially regarding seafaring and engineering), but they were no pacifists as you wish to portray them as. Gadir was founded as a trade town, yes, but in later history the Carthaginians took a more aggressive and expansionist stance. To pick a particularly gruesome example, Hamilcar Barca, the father of Hannibal Barca, was responsible for the execution of 40,000 mercenaries who had rebelled against Carthage.


Haplogroup I as whole represents a Paleolithic remmant in Europe. So the argument for R1b is also valid for haplogroup I: they didn't retain their pre-indoEuropean language/languages, that simple. Basques did despite the fact they have the highest R1b percent, but modern frequencies tells us very little. Haplogroups (specially Y-DNA) are very easy to replace in a few generations.

I personally wouldn't link any Indo-European language with Haplogroup I for obvious reasons.

Knovas, you're generally right, but, if you consider the TMRCAs and the distributions of certain specific subclades Haplogroup, they very well can be associated with (individual) Indo-European-speaking groups in later history despite the fact that they all represent surviving Paleolithic lineages. Haplogroup I as a whole is Paleolithic, but individual subclades became Indo-European at a later point of history. The most obvious example for this would be Haplogroup I1, which was later expanded by the Germanic migrations. Sparkey also suggested that it was possible to narrow things even further down, for instance that I1-Z58 (in the British context) can be associated with the Anglo-Saxons whereas I1-L22 is associated with the Vikings. What we should not underestimate in this context (and, the same, I presume, applies for the dominance of R1b amongst the Basque population), is that we must not underestimate the role of founder effects, especially with Y-DNA.

But, you are absolutely correct that this doesn't change the fact that the original Paleolithic bearers of Haplogroup I (or their Neolithic descendants, for that matter) were obviously no speakers of Indo-European languages.

zanipolo
12-07-12, 22:20
what is required is to first know the phoenician gene pool and then see its influence in Spain. In 2008 NATGEO did this survey on phoenicians

There were 2 main genotypes in Ancient Phoenicia.

J (Y-DNA) J1 proto-Semites that semitized the coastal natives & J2 Mesopotamians agriculturalists who moved into the inland regions before the J1 proto-Semites.

The Coasts are still till this day dominated by E1b1b an overall 32% of Lebanese are E1b1b (highest subclade). J is an overall Lebanese gene, while E1b1b & T are exclusive coastal genes.

Any Phoenician genetic impact has to be mainly connected with the coastal older Neolitihic offset of E1b1b & T the shared an 8:1 ratio, thats also exists in Greece in the same ratio which easily shows that simply all East Med coast dwellers (E1b1b & T) originated from the same group .

E1b1b came from somali's and T from west asian caspian sea area. they both occupied the levant coast.

Origin of the Med Sea E1b1b-T offset (The most important compononent of the Phoenician DNA)

Somalians--------- T = 10% E1b1b =81%-------> (ancestors)

Lebanese---------- T = 3% E1b1b = 25%

Greeks-------------T = 3% E1b1b = 25%

Sicilains----------- T = 2.5% E1b1b = 20%


To track the Phoenican genetic impact you have to take the E1b1b + T & the J2.

While E1b1b and T was coastl for the phoenicians , the J1 and J2 became in majority the phoenicians who settled in the new colonies in the Med. In the decline, the eastern phoenicians died out and the western phoenicians became the carthagians.
As I stated the markers in the levant ( phoenician) in the bronze age, are the same in southern Spain and are the same in wales and cornwall

granted, that NATGEO use in majority only a 12 markers system because they care only for mass of people instead of individuals

zanipolo
12-07-12, 22:32
Haplogroup I as whole represents a Paleolithic remmant in Europe. So the argument for R1b is also valid for haplogroup I: they didn't retain their pre-indoEuropean language/languages, that simple. Basques did despite the fact they have the highest R1b percent, but modern frequencies tells us very little. Haplogroups (specially Y-DNA) are very easy to replace in a few generations.

I personally wouldn't link any Indo-European language with Haplogroup I for obvious reasons.

link below is a bit old , but still applies as the markers have not mutated

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707621521

Ziober
13-07-12, 07:50
Estoy teniendo problemas para expresarme en inglés, así que si me disculpan intentaré explicarme en castellano.

Yo en ningún momento he hablado de "una raza atlante". Solo he recopilado indicios conexos, de forma multidisciplinar, ya sean culturales, genéticos, geográficos etc, para poder unir las piezas del puzzle.

Se están encontrando en España varias oppida con diseño arquitectónico igual al descrito por Platón referiéndose a Atlantis. La vasija que aparece en mi avatar, encontrada en Jaén, presenta dibujos que representan varias oppida con el mismo diseño. Círculos concéntricos, alternando tierra-agua, con un corredor radial, que parte desde el centro de la oppidum hasta un punto en el perímetro de la misma. Una de las oppida encontradas ya esta datada en el Calcolítico, por lo que guarda relación temporal, para poder entender transformaciones en la genética poblacional y en la cultura de esas gentes y el acervo que pudieron dejar en las gentes de Tartessos (como área geográfica):

http://www.tartessos.info/html2/Atlantis-Jaen.pdf
http://georgeosdiazmontexano.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/laciudadmasantiguadeeuropa.pdf

Si partimos de que en las leyendas o mitos, no hay nada de realidad. Deberíamos invalidar muchos hechos historicos comprobados. Pero no es así. Lo mismo que en La Odisea hay elementos reales mezclados con elementos fantasticos, o en el libro de Las Siete Invasiones de Irlanda. Narraciones con elementos fantásticos, podrían ser como un film histórico actual con FX y música, que son elementos de atracción/motivación, para acercar los hechos de forma amena a un "público general", público que en su día a día quizás no muestre interés por hechos históricos y no se preocupan en leer acerca de ellos. Pero que si se adornan adquieren interés.

A pesar de esto, la descripción geofísica que hace Platón de Atlantis no presenta elementos fantásticos. Y las ciudades que se están encontrando en España son tan reales como las piedras. Yo no soy responsable de la imaginación de la gente que inventa fantasías acerca de Atlantis. Yo hablo de un Atlantis histórico.

sparkey
13-07-12, 17:14
Estoy teniendo problemas para expresarme en inglés, así que si me disculpan intentaré explicarme en castellano.

You could try passing your text through Google translate before you post, because that's what most of us will be doing with your Spanish posts, anyway.


A pesar de esto, la descripción geofísica que hace Platón de Atlantis no presenta elementos fantásticos. Y las ciudades que se están encontrando en España son tan reales como las piedras. Yo no soy responsable de la imaginación de la gente que inventa fantasías acerca de Atlantis. Yo hablo de un Atlantis histórico.

Jeez, you're trying to convince us of your hypothesis, and you bring up "un Atlantis histórico"? You're making it sound like the existence of such a thing ties strongly to the evidence for your hypothesis. It would be like if I brought up Thule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule) to make a point about the properties of the proto-Germanic population.

MOESAN
14-07-12, 16:17
what is required is to first know the phoenician gene pool and then see its influence in Spain. In 2008 NATGEO did this survey on phoenicians

There were 2 main genotypes in Ancient Phoenicia.

J (Y-DNA) J1 proto-Semites that semitized the coastal natives & J2 Mesopotamians agriculturalists who moved into the inland regions before the J1 proto-Semites.

The Coasts are still till this day dominated by E1b1b an overall 32% of Lebanese are E1b1b (highest subclade). J is an overall Lebanese gene, while E1b1b & T are exclusive coastal genes.

Any Phoenician genetic impact has to be mainly connected with the coastal older Neolitihic offset of E1b1b & T the shared an 8:1 ratio, thats also exists in Greece in the same ratio which easily shows that simply all East Med coast dwellers (E1b1b & T) originated from the same group .

E1b1b came from somali's and T from west asian caspian sea area. they both occupied the levant coast.

Origin of the Med Sea E1b1b-T offset (The most important compononent of the Phoenician DNA)

Somalians--------- T = 10% E1b1b =81%-------> (ancestors)

Lebanese---------- T = 3% E1b1b = 25%

Greeks-------------T = 3% E1b1b = 25%

Sicilains----------- T = 2.5% E1b1b = 20%


To track the Phoenican genetic impact you have to take the E1b1b + T & the J2.

While E1b1b and T was coastl for the phoenicians , the J1 and J2 became in majority the phoenicians who settled in the new colonies in the Med. In the decline, the eastern phoenicians died out and the western phoenicians became the carthagians.
As I stated the markers in the levant ( phoenician) in the bronze age, are the same in southern Spain and are the same in wales and cornwall

granted, that NATGEO use in majority only a 12 markers system because they care only for mass of people instead of individuals

Sorry, but I do not understand very well what you are trying to prove, here (maybe some word escaped to my understanding; your premices seam right, about an ancient coastal presence of E1b1 in Lebanon (and surely on the Eastern Mediterranean coastlands), OK;
but what is the time link between first Neolithic times and the Phoenician expansion to Western Mediterranea? Are you thinking that the Y-E1b1 found in old enough Neolitihic times in South-Eastern Iberia are of Phoenician origin? I do link the E1b1 of present day inland Europe to the first Neolithic people that put their foot in N-Greece and Balkans at the sunrise of Agriculture: no link in my mind with phoenician seafarers even if the first origin was almost maritime and western for Near Eastern criteria...
your ratio E1b1/T is interesting (I 'll try to check about the origin of T) but maybe a ratio or more than one about E1/J1/J2 could be interesting to try to separate diverses colonisations? subclades SNPs would be more accurate yet.
Waiting some precision...
PS: Somalian origin? Is that proved? if T is of caspian region origin, I see better a Near Eastern-South-West Asia origin for Y-E1b? Somalia = one of the terminal regions?

zanipolo
14-07-12, 22:49
Sorry, but I do not understand very well what you are trying to prove, here (maybe some word escaped to my understanding; your premices seam right, about an ancient coastal presence of E1b1 in Lebanon (and surely on the Eastern Mediterranean coastlands), OK;
but what is the time link between first Neolithic times and the Phoenician expansion to Western Mediterranea? Are you thinking that the Y-E1b1 found in old enough Neolitihic times in South-Eastern Iberia are of Phoenician origin? I do link the E1b1 of present day inland Europe to the first Neolithic people that put their foot in N-Greece and Balkans at the sunrise of Agriculture: no link in my mind with phoenician seafarers even if the first origin was almost maritime and western for Near Eastern criteria...
your ratio E1b1/T is interesting (I 'll try to check about the origin of T) but maybe a ratio or more than one about E1/J1/J2 could be interesting to try to separate diverses colonisations? subclades SNPs would be more accurate yet.
Waiting some precision...
PS: Somalian origin? Is that proved? if T is of caspian region origin, I see better a Near Eastern-South-West Asia origin for Y-E1b? Somalia = one of the terminal regions?



What I am saying is that the link between iberia and british isles , for migration and commerce was established at the time by the phoenicians and/or with the armorica veneti via the phoenicians.
Caldey island in southern wales had these "levant" people arriving from the bronze age, in the levant and constantinople areas, even as late as the 13th century. northern cornwall and devon are the same position.
Bascially this bay (inland sea) , which bristol IIRC is the main port , has plenty of these finds, pottery, script and even dna which I refer to which matches identically with dna in iberia, which also matches dna in the levant.

I just gave you a history of the beginnings of the southwest british dna and where it came from.

razyn
15-07-12, 00:06
I just gave you a history of the beginnings of the southwest british dna and where it came from.

It's a sort of plausible history, for a small fraction of the Y-DNA of that part of SW Britain. But it isn't really established that the said fraction came from Iberia to the Isles, as opposed to the opposite; or perhaps it went to both places from Morbihan; or to all three places from elsewhere (much farther east, and perhaps southeast). That whole "Celtic from the west" thing works OK if one limits the discussion to a certain interesting slice of history, but the Y-DNA doesn't have such brackets around it. Looking just at the phylogeny, it doesn't appear to originate in Iberia (where some subclades of it are now concentrated), and then spread to the rest of NW Europe. That model works fairly well for certain forms of Bell Beaker tableware.

I really need to update all that Z196 stuff, it's gotten obsolete in the last few months. It's still there, but DF27 has replaced it in the hierarchy. And M153 (to name just one popular Iberian subclade of DF27) is about seven steps downstream. DF27 itself is all over Europe, at least from Ukraine to Iberia; and it is much better documented on the Atlantic (northern) side of Europe than the Mediterranean side -- though that may just reflect who gets tested first, for newly discovered SNPs.

Here's one view of what I'm talking about. DF27 (with its numerous subclades) occupies about the bottom three inches of this chart. On one side below Z196, it turns predominantly Iberian at the Z278 level. On the other side of Z196, part of L176.2 is Iberian. DF27 has other branches that are Scandinavian, Dutch, British, etc. This doesn't remotely look like a tree that begins in Iberia (either as an LGM refuge from the ice, or as a pottery-trading enclave in Portugal) and spreads its branches to all the other areas in which its leaves are now found.

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=65388520

There is much still to be learned. But while learning it, we don't have to begin with the same assumptions we held before these patterns of branching were known. There will be further refinements of our picture, over the next few years -- especially from ancient Y-DNA, of which we still have very little. None of that, so far, is Ice Age (or even Copper Age) Iberian R1b1a2, etc. The latter, at least, may well be found -- and would be a welcome addition to the spotty record we have of R1b in prehistoric Europe. Until it is, some of this "where it came from" rhetoric (out of Australia) seems a little empty (here in Virginia).

But I very much agree that connections between the Bristol Channel and Iberia are important, are several thousand years old, and seem still to be detectable in certain genes of those respective populations.

zanipolo
15-07-12, 00:54
It's a sort of plausible history, for a small fraction of the Y-DNA of that part of SW Britain. But it isn't really established that the said fraction came from Iberia to the Isles, as opposed to the opposite; or perhaps it went to both places from Morbihan; or to all three places from elsewhere (much farther east, and perhaps southeast). That whole "Celtic from the west" thing works OK if one limits the discussion to a certain interesting slice of history, but the Y-DNA doesn't have such brackets around it. Looking just at the phylogeny, it doesn't appear to originate in Iberia (where some subclades of it are now concentrated), and then spread to the rest of NW Europe. That model works fairly well for certain forms of Bell Beaker tableware.

I really need to update all that Z196 stuff, it's gotten obsolete in the last few months. It's still there, but DF27 has replaced it in the hierarchy. And M153 (to name just one popular Iberian subclade of DF27) is about seven steps downstream. DF27 itself is all over Europe, at least from Ukraine to Iberia; and it is much better documented on the Atlantic (northern) side of Europe than the Mediterranean side -- though that may just reflect who gets tested first, for newly discovered SNPs.

Here's one view of what I'm talking about. DF27 (with its numerous subclades) occupies about the bottom three inches of this chart. On one side below Z196, it turns predominantly Iberian at the Z278 level. On the other side of Z196, part of L176.2 is Iberian. DF27 has other branches that are Scandinavian, Dutch, British, etc. This doesn't remotely look like a tree that begins in Iberia (either as an LGM refuge from the ice, or as a pottery-trading enclave in Portugal) and spreads its branches to all the other areas in which its leaves are now found.

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=65388520

There is much still to be learned. But while learning it, we don't have to begin with the same assumptions we held before these patterns of branching were known. There will be further refinements of our picture, over the next few years -- especially from ancient Y-DNA, of which we still have very little. None of that, so far, is Ice Age (or even Copper Age) Iberian R1b1a2, etc. The latter, at least, may well be found -- and would be a welcome addition to the spotty record we have of R1b in prehistoric Europe. Until it is, some of this "where it came from" rhetoric (out of Australia) seems a little empty (here in Virginia).

But I very much agree that connections between the Bristol Channel and Iberia are important, are several thousand years old, and seem still to be detectable in certain genes of those respective populations.


Just to finish this
Cobh , in the entrance to cork ireland was known as the last stop for phoenician traders before making their return journey.
The story is that many iberian lusitani people who came with the phoenicians , stayed at Cobh

Ziober
15-07-12, 22:16
Jeez, you're trying to convince us of your hypothesis, and you bring up "un Atlantis histórico"? You're making it sound like the existence of such a thing ties strongly to the evidence for your hypothesis. It would be like if I brought up Thule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule) to make a point about the properties of the proto-Germanic population.

Yo no he establecido ninguna hipótesis, solo he puesto indicios, para el que quiera investigar. Y no hay que descartar nada a priori. No sé si tiene relación Atlantis con la cultura celta. Pero lo que sí es cierto es que en España se estan descubriendo oppida con el diseño arquitectónico descrito por platón. La única hipótesis que sí sostengo es que la población de las islas britanicas desciende de población ibérica en cerca del 70%.

No soy un alucinado fantasioso en busca de Atlantis, soy Licenciado en Ciencias.

MOESAN
16-07-12, 18:28
What I am saying is that the link between iberia and british isles , for migration and commerce was established at the time by the phoenicians and/or with the armorica veneti via the phoenicians.
Caldey island in southern wales had these "levant" people arriving from the bronze age, in the levant and constantinople areas, even as late as the 13th century. northern cornwall and devon are the same position.
Bascially this bay (inland sea) , which bristol IIRC is the main port , has plenty of these finds, pottery, script and even dna which I refer to which matches identically with dna in iberia, which also matches dna in the levant.

I just gave you a history of the beginnings of the southwest british dna and where it came from.

well:
-- I do not consider anyway that the %s of E1b1+T we find in some countries could be linked to the only Phoenician presence (nor Carthagian) - Even in Iberia, Y-E1b1 presence seams very too old to be linked to them only (but maybe have you new surveys with detailed downstream HGs of this Y-E1b1?)-
-- considering this topic, I do not see very well what is the matter with Phoenicians whose DNA, contrary to what I believe understanding from you, is almost absent or very low in Brittain and Ireland, and surely in the other countries involved in this discussion -
-- perhaps the Y-E1b1 of N-E Wales (founder effect of some colonisers?) has something to do with Phoenician Y-DNA, I can not discuss it without detailed element by ma hand - It would be surprising because of the northern position of this region as opposed to S-Wales where Y-E1b1 w(hatever the geogrpahic origin) is very scarce -
-- important contacts by sea and by land existed between Iberia ha the Isles well before the historical Phoenicians was mentioned (firts Neolithic "farmers", Megaliths builders), or we have to consider that the Megaliths builders was Phoenicians??? (it is possible that they came from a nearby region, by the fact, I do not know)
-- on another hand I find interesting the precisions of Razyn about the Y-R1b new discovered SNPs distributions, just I say that:
eveytime I read the post LGM recovering of lands started in Iberia: it is very wrong: the most of the Paleolithic populaton was in Aquitain, not Iberia, even if Cantabrica and Pyreneas was well settled, whatever the conclusions we take from that... the post LGM surely saw tribes or small clans expanding step by step northwards and eastwards, with more than a nucleus of growing population, more than an stop and more than a re-expansion -
sorry for my frenglish

bicicleur
17-02-13, 21:15
I wonder what subclade of r1b is Southern Spain, according to the map there is more than 50 % r1b in Southern Spain, but if you add up all main subclades of L51, it is much less
Is there another subclade of L51, or are they descending from another branch of r1b?
As far as I know, L23 is in the Balkans and Southern Italy, but not in Spain.

PortuBasq
30-03-19, 03:17
Great to have a fellow Galician (or Norte Portugal) Celt schooling the haters still angry Romans and Muslims didn't come in and overwhelm our R1b L21 Ancestros. Remember even Vascones and Basque still can't believe we out competed for their women in bed and baby making!!! ......and we brought more Rh-Negatives to Basque Country than we ever took away. The Spanish Falcata Sword was perfected by R1b L21 Celts. Whose own Bronze and Iron Smelting were legendary. As with the Standing Stones even the Romans allowed to stand as a tribute to Galician Celts to mine and fabricate into many Bronze and Iron Age Tools.

Where Rome offered Tribute to the Galician Warriors by building the Tower of Hercules Lighthouse today. King Breogan is celebrated at 'A Coruna' too. The magnificent Bronze Sculpture of Hercules was uncovered the Latins/Romans spoke much about their respect for the Celtic Warriors. Warriors Romans said were amazing as they would meet in the Battlefield riding their Advanced Iron Age Chariots into battle. The Galicians as most Celtic Armies..... would put Warriors on their War Chariots, catch them on fire for Burial.

Look at all the Hill Forts found in the Iberian Peninsula and most of all remember those ancient Iberian Tribes got out competed by more virile R1b L21 Males. Remember R1b L21 make up over 50% of the Iberian Peninsula Today and no other haplogroup can say that today. I am proof that R1b Man Totally PWNS..... the bedroom when it when it comes to having babies and extending their Male Y Chromosome Genetics. Basque Country for all its isolated Language and Culture is still 90% R1b L21 Celts. Like Galicia and Norte Portugal still are today as well. Now what did the Romans do about Galicians speaking their own Celtic Language? Well they didn't try to kill it and instead promoted Galician as the Celtic derived Language of these R1b L21 People! ;-P: ....who also had high percentages of Rh-Negative Blood Factor and Type! and between interesting to see that you share the same mtDNA Haplogroup as me too. Now if you were also Rh-Negative like my Basque Marker tells me I am, we could be twins! :D .....especially of you were Towhead growing up grew darker with age and Blue, Green or Hazel Eyes to go with your Galician Celtic Ethnic Identity!

Carlos
30-03-19, 03:55
^^

Tell me what it takes to go also to buy it.