Giants and I haplogroup

iapodos

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Ethnic group
Slavic Serb
Y-DNA haplogroup
I2a1b1 Slavic South
I have been reading a few interesting articles about Fomorians, giant race from irish mitology and their connection with haplogroup I. They are described as population which lived in Ireland before arriving of Celts.
Is there any possibility that arriving Indoeuropeans have seen domestic Mesolitic population as giants and that's how giants as creatures appeared in european mythology. Mesolitic hunter gatherers must be much larger in body size than newcomers, because they lived in harsh climatic conditions. That actually normal difference in size could be very easily transformed into mythological dimensions, as we know how myths are produced. There is also one more thing. Indoeuropeans could not find explanation what way the monumental stones (dolmens, menhirs etc.) in Europe was built. They believed that only race of giants could made it. There is lot of ancient sources which describes that kind of opinion.
What is most interesting a lot of Celtic and Germanic legends describes mixing and interbreeding people and giants. Fomorians through marriages became part of goidelic society, the first irish king Bres was half Fomorian. In Norse mythology, giant race Jotuns also are mixing with Nordic gods and have children with them. In Slavic legends, superior God Svarog had a wife, giant women, Koleda which gave birth to all known slavic gods: Perun, Svantevid and Tatomir. The similar stories are found in Greek, Baltic, Basque mythologies. Giants are described as old population, different race which are confronted with Gods (Greek Gygantomachia) but later after defeat became incorporated into Panteon.
This could easily explained R1a and R1b domination in Europe and also combinations I1 and R1b, I2a and R1a, I2a and R1b... So, could old haplogroup I population of Europe be connected with mythological giants?
This is, of course, only hypothesis but possible one.
 
It depends what you call "giants". Northern Europeans are among the tallest people in the world. There may be some inheritance from paleolithic hunter-gatherers (hg I). All mamals have a tendency to grow bigger in colder climates. It's a natural adaptation. Bigger bodies carry more energy to warm up one's body. However I am unaware that Paleolithic northern Europeans were spectacularly bigger than their southern relatives. I think that they were usually shorter than modern people.
 
There was a body of a man found in a bog in central Ireland. He is called Old Croghan man and is over 2000 years old. His estimated height is at 6'6" (198cm).
 
Look carefully at table of human height on the link bellow. World tallest people is found exactly in the regions where haplogroup I is typical or dominant haplogroup (Dinaric Alps, Scandinavia). I don´t believe it could be coincidance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height

Herzegovinians and Montenegrins are well known as tallest people in Europe.
 
There was a body of a man found in a bog in central Ireland. He is called Old Croghan man and is over 2000 years old. His estimated height is at 6'6" (198cm).

Interesting story. It would be good if we knew his haplogroup.
 
The tallest people of Europe are in the Balkans, haplogroup I2a2 - and height correlates with IQ.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height
In the late nineteenth century, the Netherlands was a land renowned for its short population, but today it has the tallest average in the world, with young men averaging 183 cm (6'0 ft) tall and in Europe are only shorter than the peoples of the Dinaric Alps (a section largely within the former Yugoslavia), where males average 185.6 cm (6 ft 1.1 in) tall.

http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/NationalIQs.aspx

Country City Mean IQ
Holland Amsterdam 109.4
Germany Hamburg 109.3
Poland Warsaw 108.3
Sweden Stockholm 105.8
Yugoslavia Zagreb 105.7
Italy Rome 103.8
Austria Vienna 103.5
Switzerland Zurich 102.8
Portugal Lisbon 102.6
Great Britain London 102.0
Norway Oslo 101.8
Denmark Copenhagen 100.7
Hungary Budapest 100.5
Czechoslovakia Bratislava 100.4
Spain Madrid 100.3
Belgium Brussels 99.7
Greece Athens 99.4
Ireland Dublin 99.2
Finland Helsinki 98.1
Bulgaria Sofia 96.3
France Paris 96.1
From V. Buj, Person. & Individ. Diff., Vol. 2, pp. 168 to 169, 1981
Subjects >16 yrs. old tested on the Cattell Culture Fair Test 3 (16 SD), standardized in the USA (IQ=100).
 
http://www.nber.org/papers/w12466

Stature and Status: Height, Ability, and Labor Market Outcomes

It has long been recognized that taller adults hold jobs of higher status and, on average, earn more than other workers. A large number of hypotheses have been put forward to explain the association between height and earnings. In developed countries, researchers have emphasized factors such as self esteem, social dominance, and discrimination. In this paper, we offer a simpler explanation: On average, taller people earn more because they are smarter. As early as age 3 — before schooling has had a chance to play a role — and throughout childhood, taller children perform significantly better on cognitive tests. The correlation between height in childhood and adulthood is approximately 0.7 for both men and women, so that tall children are much more likely to become tall adults. As adults, taller individuals are more likely to select into higher paying occupations that require more advanced verbal and numerical skills and greater intelligence, for which they earn handsome returns. Using four data sets from the US and the UK, we find that the height premium in adult earnings can be explained by childhood scores on cognitive tests. Furthermore, we show that taller adults select into occupations that have higher cognitive skill requirements and lower physical skill demands.
 
that´s simply not true, that´s just mythology, not ancient, but current. neandrthals lived in such a "bad" clima for a very longtime, they were well adapted, and they weren´t giants, on the contrary. so the reason for their height is not so simple. but I don´t see nothing mysterious in it - we don´t know yet all groups which contributed to the human genom - it is much larger than on is insisted now. some were giants, some were more intelligent, some were less able to adapt itself - that´s normal evolution. the rests of these groups were found centuries ago in european and asian forests. Finally, Perun and other slavonic gods are not slavonic, they are by origin hittite (anatolia). slavonic tribes adopted more cultural effects from their asian forerunners. I am sorry, but what exactly on the hypothesis of giants explains R1a and R1b domination? I can´t see it. Thank you.
Veronika
 
that´s simply not true, that´s just mythology, not ancient, but current. neandrthals lived in such a "bad" clima for a very longtime, they were well adapted, and they weren´t giants, on the contrary. so the reason for their height is not so simple. but I don´t see nothing mysterious in it - we don´t know yet all groups which contributed to the human genom - it is much larger than on is insisted now. some were giants, some were more intelligent, some were less able to adapt itself - that´s normal evolution. the rests of these groups were found centuries ago in european and asian forests. Finally, Perun and other slavonic gods are not slavonic, they are by origin hittite (anatolia). slavonic tribes adopted more cultural effects from their asian forerunners. I am sorry, but what exactly on the hypothesis of giants explains R1a and R1b domination? I can´t see it. Thank you.
Veronika

I would try to answer you as you post the questions:

1. Nobody was talking about neadrenthals at all. I was talking about Homo
Sapiens, Paleolitic and Mesolitic hunter-gatherers which were carriers of
haplogroup I.
2. This is for first time for me to hear that Perun and other Slavonic Gods
were of Hittite origin. What facts prove that?
3. Mythological story that giants were defeated race explain R1a and R1b
domination in Europe

Myths are created by people, usually by exaggarating things that actually happened. All what I was trying is to give posibility how giant myth was created. I am definetely not claiming that real giants once existed.
 
Veronika, you think faster than you type, hehe, can you elaborate on your points some more?

The good point is, why the smarter and stronger giants, the I, succumbed to less smart and smaller R1 peoples? Maybe they don't like sex and got overpopulated as such, lol?
 
Veronika, you think faster than you type, hehe, can you elaborate on your points some more?

The good point is, why the smarter and stronger giants, the I, succumbed to less smart and smaller R1 peoples? Maybe they don't like sex and got overpopulated as such, lol?

Well it is question were they smarter or not. If we just remember David and Goliath.
And yes, maybe the lack of sex was reason. I think that Maciamo wrote something on that topic, or a posibility that they have mostly daughters.
 
These are the nuances that we'll probably never learn, "What the heck really happened?".
R1a mingled and coexisted more with I peoples, and we see big enclaves of Is in east and south. R1b exterminated Is more than anyone else, except in central and north Europe where the 3 haplogroups are nicely mixed.
 
There is no proof of exterminions, massacres or massive migrations in prehistoric Europe.
 
There is no proof of exterminions, massacres or massive migrations in prehistoric Europe.
Maybe because they couldn't write, and do a nice documentary movies for us to see. There are examples from recent history, so we know what people are able to do to each other. Do you think that in past people were more humane and civilized?
 
Maybe because they couldn't write, and do a nice documentary movies for us to see. There are examples from recent history, so we know what people are able to do to each other. Do you think that in past people were more humane and civilized?

There aren't archaeological records, simple as that. If you support that such a kind of epysodes took place, you'll have to prove it.

With that kind of technology, population density and low development of superstructural organization I can't imagine a genocide in half a continent.

More human? No, obviously equal. More civilized? Less, of course (civilization doesn't implies cruelty or benevolence, it's another matter)
 
Maybe because they couldn't write, and do a nice documentary movies for us to see. There are examples from recent history, so we know what people are able to do to each other. Do you think that in past people were more humane and civilized?
They were not exterminated, since today the most common mtDNA haplogroup in Europe is H, which was here before R1b people
 
I understand that the Upper-Palaeolithic people like the Bruenn and Cro-Magnons
(Borreby) were tall giants. It is thought that they had some Neanderthaler ancestors.
But the Neanderthalers were rather small.

Each people has its dwarfs and giants. The Slavic people are small and sometimes
graciles. But even in Russian you can meet big and robust men!
 
There aren't archaeological records, simple as that. If you support that such a kind of epysodes took place, you'll have to prove it.
I don´t see what kind of proves are expected for such ancient period.
What happens with American Indians just hundred years ago. And today nobody is talking about genocide. And what kind of archeological proves can show how they were sistemicaticallly exterminated and their land usurped.
Maybe Western Europe wasn`t so densely populated in that time. However I believe that it was two confronted races, I and R.
 

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