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View Full Version : WHAT DOES MEAN ZERO in jewish haplogroup?



watta
26-05-10, 19:39
It certainly doesn´t mean, that they are not jews and arabians, moreover they tend to keep their societies in endogammy. Is the analysis trusted? What exactly do you want to say by it?

Why you are searching for "miraculous" disparition of the impact of middle-asia invasion just because the results in hyplogroups, when the result in jewish haplogroup is also zero?

Thank you for your answer and explanation.
Veronika

watta
26-05-10, 19:54
hyplogroup ;) probably nicer than hAplo :D

Semitic Duwa
28-05-10, 10:46
huh?!:bored:

watta
28-05-10, 11:04
Y-DNA haplogroup for Semitic:
only in Turkey, Albania, small in Cyprus, very small in Bulgaria, Greece, Italy and Spain

what does it means? does it mean that there is no evidence (because people with semit ancestors don´t ask for genographic tests which sounds understandably) or does it mean soemthing else? :)

for example that Jews are in fact not descending from semitic clans? it could be interesting. they could come into the holy land (fertile crescent) from a different country - probably middle asia.

watta
28-05-10, 11:12
or - the table here could be wrong :) - another possibility. any suggestions?

Semitic Duwa
28-05-10, 12:17
Well, the most common haplogroup found on Jews is J (M304+):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Distribution_Haplogroup_J_Y-DNA.svg/800px-Distribution_Haplogroup_J_Y-DNA.svg.png

watta
28-05-10, 22:24
yes, but semitic is J1 and J1 has zero throughout almost all Europe. when "original" Jews from the holy land were semitic tribes, which is believed, and they follow endogamy for a very long time, which is not just believed, but proved, why J1 has so low evidence in Europe, is it not strange? as I suppose, it is possible that Jews simply don´t need any testing, and propably they don´t take genes testings so often as other people, so there are not their profiles. but it could also be caused by something else, for example:
1. the dates are not good processed
2. the table is not recent or it is wrong
2. the origin of Jews lies in some other ethnic than Semitic (and they brought Tabernacle with from different land)
3. I don´t understand something in the analysis :)
But - it seems to me a bit strange. To be clear - I speak about the table in the article "Distribution of European Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) haplogroups by region in percentage" here on Eupedia

watta
28-05-10, 22:28
of course that most significat is woman (mtDNA), when we speak about Jews, but - there is also very small evidence, and it is for all J (not just semitic J) moreover - it is also here on Eupedia in "Distribution of European mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups by region in percentage", so from that we cannot know the results for semitic only...

willy
29-05-10, 02:43
The Hurrian origins of the ancient Hebrews a tribe of Caucasus (haplo G) went to mesopotamia and start the first Herew tribe .

watta
29-05-10, 10:42
thank you! :)

watta
29-05-10, 11:24
so if it remains G in Europe (?), than Jews in Europe are
semitic (J1), probably also some mezopotomian (J2), G, and some slavic (RjA) and something even more possibly in Spain. OK, that´s even broader perspective, it sounds real, thank you!

I have read these analysis here on Eupedia only some days ago, so possibly I can´t still enure to the fact, that genetically we are almost all the same, or from very small amount of groups, that the major difference is not genetic, but cultural. It sound a bit strange to me even on Jews. But generally, it is logical, of course. Thanks again :)

willy
29-05-10, 15:32
Ok you are welcome

Semitic Duwa
29-05-10, 18:18
Hum, you guys are taking all this a little bit too far...You shouldn't equate haplogroups with these relatively young populations but dig into the subclades.

willy
30-05-10, 02:35
I just found some infos about this very curious G haplogroup :
G2a3b1 STR marker samples in Ibiza are common in Sepharadic Jewish
G2c in Ashkenazi Jews. Circassians have extremely high percentages of G2a3b1-P303
many of them live now in Israel. G subclades were involved very earlier in first civilizations of mesotamia and later in Persia this is why we found G haplogroup in Sepharadic and Ashkenazi.
Ref Wiki

watta
30-05-10, 10:51
Chm, that´s really interesting. I found something else - just about Sephardim:

Depending on a study, 30%-40% of Sephardim are in haplogroup J (according to Wikipedia, 12% J1 and 29% J2) and another 30% in haplogroup R1b (most common in Portugal and Spain). About 11.5% are haplogroup I, a northern European group. And a small amount is the mostly East European and Scandinavian R1a.

Another 19% is haplogroup E1b1b which is observed in significant frequencies in Europe and western Asia.

http://ethnicgenome.wordpress.com/2009/03/04/the-race-of-sephardic-jews/

But it is a bit older - March2009 and then. It´s really interesting this with G haplogroup. I will try to find more sources as well.

I try to find possible proves for repeated cultural impact of ancient tribes from middle Asia (Caucasus, north neighbourhood etc.) and trace and compare it in genetics. There are really major effects on Europe from this part of the world - and there are really very good reasons to it (coming not from genes, but fixing genetic changes). Jewish influence is very powerful. So it is interesting to me, if it comes from the same source.

willy
30-05-10, 12:21
There is many Ashkenazi R1a Khazars convert to Judaism 8th or 9th century The Near East had a real effect on Europe the Iron age etc .. Copper Age in the Middle East and the Caucasus begins in the late 5th millennium BC . Kura-Araxes culture or the Early trans-Caucasian culture, was a civilization that existed from 3400 B.C Caucasus tribes were strongly involved in the Indo Iranian Persian Empire . For example the Iyengar mostly in the G2a3b1 haplogroup represents a "indo Aryan" upper caste in South India according the vedic heritage these Iyengars and Iyers came to North India during the Indo Persian migration 3000 years ago . So before the Indo iranians some caucasus tribes were also strongly envolved in the earlier urban civilizations of Mesopotamia as Sumer this is not surprising to find G2a3b1 in Ashkenazi and Sepharadic there are also many references to Abraham speaking Sumerian. I think it comes from the same source

watta
30-05-10, 13:40
Yes I know about Askenazi and Chazars etc., of course. It seems just strange to me that J1 has ZERO throughout european population, because for a long historic period before that, Jews were NOT converts. But they traveled in Europe as well, and founded settlements as well etc., so it SHOULD be their origin haplogroup (I expected semitic) presented here. But it could be simply explained but existence of a bit older haplogroup G in this old jewish population, as you wrote before. It is logical then.

And the rest is exactly what I am speaking about - this is all the time the same influence from the same part of the world, by the same people (not the same haplogroup of course, because it is a matter of change by crossing others). Arjas, Celts, Huns, even Germans, it seems logical that Jews, I just would like to know more about this specific jewish matter. Every strong european culture is "asian", from that part of the world. But, it doesn´t stays the same in europian conditions (or hindu-indian in case of India). Which is obvious, because people STOP here. It kills culture, when you are NOT NOMAD. Not so much in about Jews - they traveled around more than the others, it means - they really changed their places to live (don´t confuse it with "traveling" nowadays, or moving out (to america, f.e.) which doesn´t expect from people the same). This is then one of real advantage of Jews, of course.

willy
30-05-10, 19:59
What do you mean by "J1 has ZERO throughout european population" do you mean that There is no J1 on Europe ?

watta
30-05-10, 20:14
yes, this is what I mean. in percentage, of course, in most European countries, as it´s listed in the tab.

willy
01-06-10, 14:45
On wiki we can read about J1 :

Europe
In general J1 has a very low frequency in Europe. However, higher frequencies has been reported in the central Adriatic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic) regions of Italy Gargano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gargano) (17.2%)[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-italy-19), Pescara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pescara) (15%)[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-italy-19), in the Mediterranean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean) Paola (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paola) (11.1%)[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-italy-19), South Sicilian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily) Ragusa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragusa,_Italy) (10.7%)[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-20), Crete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete) (8.3%)[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-King08-21), Malta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta) (7.8%), Cyprus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus) (6.2%)[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-22), Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) (5.3%)[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-King08-21).


The frequency of Haplogroup J1 collapses suddenly at the borders of Arabic speaking countries and Daghestan with other countries, such as Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran) (10.5%)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-3) and Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey) (9%)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-4). The distribution of J1 outside of the Middle East may be associated with the Semites who traded and conquered in Sicily, southern Italy, Spain and Pakistan. Daghestani J1 tend to be different from Arabic J1.
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)&action=edit&section=3)] Arabian Plate

Haplogroup J1, defined by the 267 marker is most frequent in Yemen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemen)(76%)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-5)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Cadenas08-6), Saudi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi) (64%)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-7) Qatar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar) (58%)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Cadenas08-6). J1 is generally frequent amongst Negev Bedouins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedouins) (62%[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-8)). It is also very common among other Arabs such as those of the Levant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant), i.e. Palestinian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people) (38.4%) [10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Semino_et_al._2004-9), Syria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria) (30%), Lebanon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon) (25%) [11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-10), In Jewish populations, J1 constitutes 30% of the Yemenite Jews[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Shen_et_al._2004-11) 20.0% of the Ashkenazim results and 12% of the Sephardic results[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Semino_et_al._2004-9)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Shen_et_al._2004-11)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-12)[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-13).
The frequency of Haplogroup J1 collapses suddenly at the borders of Arabic speaking countries and Daghestan with other countries, such as Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran) (10.5%)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-3) and Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey) (9%)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-4). The distribution of J1 outside of the Middle East may be associated with the Semites who traded and conquered in Sicily, southern Italy, Spain and Pakistan. Daghestani J1 tend to be different from Arabic J1.

watta
01-06-10, 23:08
hmm... thank you. that´s always the same problem in finding anything about genes and haplogroups today: every source says something different... it is sad. you cannot use these results for any analysis, for anything. because if you do, your deductions could be very easy wrong - you find another schedule, everything is different. that´s almost worthless then :/

willy
04-06-10, 00:10
hmm... thank you. that´s always the same problem in finding anything about genes and haplogroups today: every source says something different... it is sad. you cannot use these results for any analysis, for anything. because if you do, your deductions could be very easy wrong - you find another schedule, everything is different. that´s almost worthless then :/

Yes I agree