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Haganus
27-05-10, 23:19
With big surprise and interests I read that according to the newest opinion
the Celtic culture and tribes came from the Iberian Peninsula. From there
they went to the British Island.

As you know the R1b Celtic tribes (like other Indo-Europena tribes) arose about 3000 BC from the area north of the Caucasus. These tribes went through south Russia to Hungary and Austria. One group split in the so called Italic tribes and the other became the Celts who went to Spain. Did the Spanish Celtic tribes go to France and Switserland? It was assumend that this country, East-France and South-Germany were the areas in which the Celtic culture arose.

If the Celtic culture arose in Iberia which tribes did live in Switserland and
south Germany? Ancient Germanic tribes? According to the archeologists
and pre-historians the Germanic had an origin in the Jastorf Culture and
not in Scandinavia.

seananton
09-06-10, 15:06
A traditional Irish history called "The Book of the Taking of Ireland"
states that the 'Gaels' came from Spain. Both DNA and linguistic evidence indicate slight relationships with the Basques.
The origins of the Irish however are complex and the Gaels form only a part of the makeup of that people.

willy
10-06-10, 02:00
As you know the R1b Celtic tribes (like other Indo-Europena tribes) arose about 3000 BC from the area north of the Caucasus.
This is wrong the Europeans came to Europe from Anatolia with farming 7000 - 8000 years ago .
Sorry but this is the last news forget Gimbutas and other 19 century theories Caucasian tribes came on Iran to built the Persian Empire and some of them came to India so you can't find R1b1b2 ht15 Atlantic modal on these areas you can find on Indu Kush Indo Iranian or Indo Aryan on language point of view : the Kalash People : 20 % R1a 20% G2a
and some J and others ... but NOT R1b1b2 ht15 (supposed to be the Germans Celtic Irish Spanish tribes ... and company ) same thing on India or on Iran NO R1b1b2 ht15 this is the modal Atlantic haplogroup not a Caucasus haplogroup .

Cambrius (The Red)
10-06-10, 02:49
This is wrong the Europeans came to Europe from Anatolia with farming 7000 - 8000 years ago .
Sorry but this is the last news forget Gimbutas and other 19 century theories Caucasian tribes came on Iran to built the Persian Empire and some of them came to India so you can't find R1b1b2 ht15 Atlantic modal on these areas you can find on Indu Kush Indo Iranian or Indo Aryan on language point of view : the Kalash People : 20 % R1a 20% G2a
and some J and others ... but NOT R1b1b2 ht15 (supposed to be the Germans Celtic Irish Spanish tribes ... and company ) same thing on India or on Iran NO R1b1b2 ht15 this is the modal Atlantic haplogroup not a Caucasus haplogroup .

Many of the 19th century notions concerning Indo-Europeans origins have been disproved.

secherbernard
10-06-10, 09:45
This is wrong the Europeans came to Europe from Anatolia with farming 7000 - 8000 years ago .
Sorry but this is the last news forget Gimbutas and other 19 century theories Caucasian tribes came on Iran to built the Persian Empire and some of them came to India so you can't find R1b1b2 ht15 Atlantic modal on these areas you can find on Indu Kush Indo Iranian or Indo Aryan on language point of view : the Kalash People : 20 % R1a 20% G2a
and some J and others ... but NOT R1b1b2 ht15 (supposed to be the Germans Celtic Irish Spanish tribes ... and company ) same thing on India or on Iran NO R1b1b2 ht15 this is the modal Atlantic haplogroup not a Caucasus haplogroup .
:laughing: Willy you are a very comic guy!!
I have already told you that, but you don't understand what you read, and you don't understand what you write :laughing:
Nobody says that germans or celts lived in India or Iran :laughing:
R1b1b2 ht15 live in occidental europe. They arrived here around 5.000 years ago in copper age.
Their ancestors R1b1b2 ht35 came from west asia during Indo european migrations from pontic steppes.

From wikipedia:



In the Caucasus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus), haplogroup R1b may be found in 43% of Ossetian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians) males[58] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Pericic2005-57) and in as many as 32.4% (238/734 P-92R7(xR1a1-SRY10831b))[81] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-80) to 36% (17/47 R1-M173(xR1a1a-M17))[65] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Wells2001-64) of Armenians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians). It also has been found with lower frequency among Georgians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgians) (6/66 = 9.1% R1b1b2-M269[82] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Battaglia2008-81) to 9/63 = 14.3% R1-M173(xR1a1a-M17)[83] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Semino2000-82)) and Balkarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkars) (2/38 = 5.3% R1b1-P25(xR1b1b2-M269) and 3/38 = 7.9% R1b1b2-M269 for a total of 5/38 = 13.2% R1b[82] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Battaglia2008-81)).



Studies from Volga-Urals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idel-Ural) on the border of Europe and Asia have revealed high frequencies of R1b1b1 (13.2%) and R1b1b2 (34.4%) in a sample of 471 Bashkirs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashkirs)[84] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-83)[85] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-84). Other Volga-Ural peoples: Komi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komi_peoples) (16.0%), Moksha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordvins) (13.3%), Tatars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars) (8.7%), Chuvash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuvash) (3.8%), Mari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari) (2.7%), Udmurt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udmurt) (2.3%)[60] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-tambets-59)

willy
10-06-10, 12:23
:laughing: Willy you are a very comic guy!!
I have already told you that, but you don't understand what you read, and you don't understand what you write :laughing:
Nobody says that germans or celts lived in India or Iran :laughing:
R1b1b2 ht15 live in occidental europe. They arrived here around 5.000 years ago in copper age.
Their ancestors R1b1b2 ht35 came from west asia during Indo european migrations from pontic steppes.

From wikipedia:
Just talking about R1b1b2 ht15 found on Western Europe : Celtic tribes Irish etc ... or Germanic but a little bit less on Germany it depends where you are anyway : if you can't read ht15 I can't do nothing else for you I don't talk about R1a or ht35 with your little game of ancestors we come all from Africa and I agree : this is true. Last thing : add 3000 or 4000 years to your supposed age of R1b1b2 in Europe this is not the Bronze age but the neolithic farmers .Of course some subclades of ht15 are younger than 8000 years ago but they appear in Western Europe NOT in the eastern steppes . I do not agree with the idea to give one haplogroup as you said (R1b1b2) to the Indo European first speakers : This is ridiculous . Proto-Indo-European was however an offshoot of Pre-Proto-Indo-European which was the language of the early farmers who crossed the Aegean from Anatolia to settle in Thessaly. There, and in their subsequent northern expansion was formed the Proto-Indo-European community which subsequently gave birth to all the historical Indo-European languages, while those of Anatolia (Hittite, Luwian and Palaic) are actually an off-shoot of the Pre-Proto-Indo-European group that stayed behind. You need some knowledge in your head man !

secherbernard
10-06-10, 13:46
Just talking about R1b1b2 ht15 found on Western Europe : Celtic tribes Irish etc ... or Germanic but a little bit less on Germany it depends where you are anyway : if you can't read ht15 I can't do nothing else for you I don't talk about R1a or ht35 with your little game of ancestors we come all from Africa and I agree : this is true. Last thing : add 3000 or 4000 years to your supposed age of R1b1b2 in Europe this is not the Bronze age but the neolithic farmers .Of course some subclades of ht15 are younger than 8000 years ago but they appear in Western Europe NOT in the eastern steppes .
All the subclades of R1b1b2 ht15 (P312 and U106) in western europe emerged in copper age. There is no trace of R1b1b2 in western Europe before copper age. Before copper age, R1b1b2 was in West Asia.

I do not agree with the idea to give one haplogroup as you said (R1b1b2) to the Indo European first speakers : This is ridiculous . Proto-Indo-European was however an offshoot of Pre-Proto-Indo-European which was the language of the early farmers who crossed the Aegean from Anatolia to settle in Thessaly. There, and in their subsequent northern expansion was formed the Proto-Indo-European community which subsequently gave birth to all the historical Indo-European languages, while those of Anatolia (Hittite, Luwian and Palaic) are actually an off-shoot of the Pre-Proto-Indo-European group that stayed behind.
Hittite, Luwian and Palaic arrived in Anatolia in 3rd millenium BC. Read books Willy! (Bernard Sergent, James Mallory, David Anthony, ...). At least this: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

All the arguments linguistics, archeologics or mythologics show that proto IE came frome Pontic Steppe in copper age.
Just a few examples among many others:
Linguistic: roots of name copper are the same in different IE languages
Archeologics: celtic barrows are similar to Steppe barrows from yamnaya culture
Mythologic: The mythology of European neolithic is based on the mother goddess in a matriarcal society. the mythology of IE is based on male gods in a patriarcal society. This patriarcal society is born in a herders society, not an agricultural one.
The only one argument of Colin Renfrew is based on migration: IE expansion is a migration, neolithization of Europe is a migration. It is a wrong argument. Neolitic migration was not the only one migration in Europe!

These proto IE who lived in Pontic Steppes were real people. They had DNA. As all people they have many Y-DNA haplogroups. I think the main Y-DNA haplogroups of these people were R1a and R1b.

willy
10-06-10, 21:52
Thank you but when I go on your link I can read : "Des informations de cet article ou section devraient être mieux reliées aux sources mentionnées dans la bibliographie" Anyway I can not make you change your mind but you must to know that the pastoral culture derives from agriculture. Gimbutas's theory does not explain the DNA shift on people of Iran - South Asia - India and Western Europeans so as you know both of them speak Indo-European languages. In other words : If Gimbutas is right it should be the same Indo European people settlement on the East and West. Let me tell you Bernard these ht15 subclades appear in Western Europe and long time before the cooper age. R1b1b2 was NOT on West Asia . The opposition farmers - warriors did not make sense during all the Indo European history, this is just a atificial cleavage but I agree : very easy to understand, simple so just not real .

LeBrok
10-06-10, 22:23
Anyway I can not make you change your mind but you must know that the pastoral culture derives from agriculture.
Why is that?
I would bat it can be independent. Nomads have domesticated animals and no agriculture.
You can have goats, cows, horses that eat grass around the house, and don't require agriculture/grains to be fed.

I would even claim that herding came first as it is much easier to keep animal in pens (chickens) or goats in fenced area than learn how to plow fields, harvest and thrash the grain.
Most likely it was related to the climate of the area. In dry steppe it was easier to heard animals. In India and fertile crescent was easy to grow grain.

willy
11-06-10, 00:19
People who have used the breeding have been farmers. Agriculture is first . The Indus or Harappan Civilization was based on agricultural surplus all great civilizations were around a river as Nil Indus etc .. Farmers need water not difficult to understand . Egyptians were farmers and later some of them warrios and rulers the opposition " farmers - warriors" did not make sense for a homogeneous nation . Agriculture involves the settlement and the development of animal domestication then comes the horse plow other life styles and social organizations that may separate farmers .

LeBrok
11-06-10, 01:00
To domesticate goats, sheep or cows you need grass around your house or tent.
Why do you need agriculture to domesticate these?

secherbernard
11-06-10, 09:21
Thank you but when I go on your link I can read : "Des informations de cet article ou section devraient être mieux reliées aux sources mentionnées dans la bibliographie" Anyway I can not make you change your mind but you must to know that the pastoral culture derives from agriculture. Gimbutas's theory does not explain the DNA shift on people of Iran - South Asia - India and Western Europeans so as you know both of them speak Indo-European languages. In other words : If Gimbutas is right it should be the same Indo European people settlement on the East and West. Let me tell you Bernard these ht15 subclades appear in Western Europe and long time before the cooper age. R1b1b2 was NOT on West Asia . The opposition farmers - warriors did not make sense during all the Indo European history, this is just a atificial cleavage but I agree : very easy to understand, simple so just not real .
I have already given the sources:
Bernard Sergent: "Les Indo Europens"
James Mallory "In Search of the Indo-Europeans: Language, Archaeology and Myth"
David Anthony "The horse, the wheel and Language"
Your problem Willy, is that you never read books, but just read some web pages written by every body.
And you assert always the same things without any argument.
When you write:

The opposition farmers - warriors did not make sense during all the Indo European historyIt is a huge mistake. That's prove you know nothing about IE. Read books Willy! and begin by Dumezil and his trifunctionnal theory.

willy
11-06-10, 13:52
Ok Bernard I will give you some argument later, I know Dumezil and Gimbutas 's theory
The tri functionnal theory : priests, warriors producers (farmers) basis of the I.E ideology so the opposition farmers - warriors did not make sense for I.E . 3 functions complement each ... you must to understand it when you read something .

willy
11-06-10, 13:59
Lebrok : To domesticate animals you need to understand how plants grow. Then you can choose to become a pastor

secherbernard
11-06-10, 14:26
Ok Bernard I will give you some argument later, I know Dumezil and Gimbutas 's theory
The tri functionnal theory : priests, warriors producers (farmers) basis of the I.E ideology so the opposition farmers - warriors did not make sense for I.E . 3 functions complement each ... you must to understand it when you read something .

:laughing:

secherbernard
11-06-10, 14:58
Lebrok : To domesticate animals you need to understand how plants grow. Then you can choose to become a pastor
:laughing: ... :laughing:

willy
11-06-10, 16:23
http://www.jstor.org/pss/27579985
Métiers et classes fonctionnelles chez divers peuples indo-européens <LI class=author>Georges Dumézil Annales. Histoire, Sciences Sociales, 13e Année, No. 4 (Oct. - Dec., 1958), pp. 716-724
(article consists of 9 pages) Published by: EHESS (http://www.jstor.org/action/showPublisher?publisherCode=ehess)

About the origin of R1b1b2 ht15 you must read this :
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1000285

"The relative contributions to modern European populations of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers and Neolithic farmers from the Near East have been intensely debated. Haplogroup R1b1b2 (R-M269) is the commonest European Y-chromosomal lineage, increasing in frequency from east to west, and carried by 110 million European men. Previous studies suggested a Paleolithic origin, but here we show that the geographical distribution of its microsatellite diversity is best explained by spread from a single source in the Near East via Anatolia during the Neolithic" CQFD

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/bsecher/Genetique.htm
"L'haplogroupe R1b1b2 serait arrivé en Europe centrale il y a 4.500 ou 5.000 ans"
you should revise your copy ...

I wonder if you are researcher in genetics or rather a reader of popularization of science ?

secherbernard
11-06-10, 18:35
http://www.jstor.org/pss/27579985
Métiers et classes fonctionnelles chez divers peuples indo-européens <LI class=author>Georges Dumézil Annales. Histoire, Sciences Sociales, 13e Année, No. 4 (Oct. - Dec., 1958), pp. 716-724
(article consists of 9 pages) Published by: EHESS (http://www.jstor.org/action/showPublisher?publisherCode=ehess)

Wondereful Willy, you are able to use google!! In fact I never doubted you are the king of google! :great:

You better read books Willy!
And what is is written in the books ?
It is written that the mythology of Neolithic farmers is based on mother goddess in a matriarcal society, and IE mythology is based on males gods in a patriarcal society. So it is impossible that IE are Neolithic farmers. It is one strong argument among many others.

It is not me who tell that, it is Gimbutas, Sergent, Mallory, Anthony, Lebedynsky, and so on... Read books Willy and stop google...


About the origin of R1b1b2 ht15 you must read this :
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1000285

"The relative contributions to modern European populations of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers and Neolithic farmers from the Near East have been intensely debated. Haplogroup R1b1b2 (R-M269) is the commonest European Y-chromosomal lineage, increasing in frequency from east to west, and carried by 110 million European men. Previous studies suggested a Paleolithic origin, but here we show that the geographical distribution of its microsatellite diversity is best explained by spread from a single source in the Near East via Anatolia during the Neolithic" CQFD

I have discussed with you many time about Balaresque paper. They are many pb in that paper.
1) The error windows of balaresque data is so great that it is impossible to know if R1b1b2 migration arrived during copper age or neolithic time.
2) Balaresque takes only one point in east: in Anatolia. It is difficult to know the origine of migration with only one point!!
In fact the main interest of Balaresque paper is that it tell us that R1b1b2 is not arrived in Europe during paleolithic times. It is a great progress, because before that many scientific papers told that R1b1b2 was paleolithic in Europe.
In fact, there are many data in FTDNA R1b projects: hundreds and hundreds of samples. Surely much more than the Balaresque data...
You can ask to the FTDNA administrators of these groups: P312, L21, U152, U106.
All the R1b1b2 data show that R1b1b2 emerged in Western Europe during copper age.

I hope soon, scientific researchers will contact aministrators of FTDNA projects to use all these data. It will be a great progress. From my knowledge, there is one scientific Anatole Klyosov who worked with Richard Stevens, the FTDNA administrator of P312 and L21 projects. Klyosov results confirm that R1b1b2 arrived in western Europe during copper age. See - "DNA Genealogy, Mutation Rates, and Some Historical Evidences Written in Y-Chromosome" (http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf): http://aklyosov.home.comcast.net/~aklyosov/ (http://aklyosov.home.comcast.net/%7Eaklyosov/)

Balaresque doesn't speak in her paper of P312 or U106!! What great forgetting!! But we cannot forget that there were many SNP discoveries in the last years, and we must wait for several years before scientifics take account all these new discoveries...

willy
11-06-10, 19:23
You better read books Willy!
And what is is written in the books ?
It is written that the mythology of Neolithic farmers is based on mother goddess in a matriarcal society, and IE mythology is based on males gods in a patriarcal society. So it is impossible that IE are Neolithic farmers. It is one strong argument among many others

Here is a guy who has balls ! too Manichean man and still observed in all human cultures
Indo European is a family of langages not a "cowboys Indians" game


All the R1b1b2 data show that R1b1b2 emerged in Western Europe during copper age.

Right I agree for some subclades with "emerged" not "arrived " you got it ? I have serious doubts about your sense of nuance .




Balaresque doesn't speak in her paper of P312 or U106!! What great forgetting!! ...

"what great forgetting !!" Yeah a great bullshit hun ! you are too funny you should give lessons to Balaresque send her an email Patricia will appreciate your help

Haganus
11-06-10, 23:17
Just I read the article in DNA Genealogy written history.
I understand that the haplogroup R1a arose about 20.000 years ago
in Siberia. After it the bearers of R1a went to the Balkan. The bearers
split in some directions: some went to Russia and others went to Middle-,
West- and North-Europe. So the ancestors of the haplogroups R1a in
Scandinavia, Germany and the British Islands did not come from Russia
(as I used to read), but from the Balkan. Is this correct? So the origin of
the Germanic languages lays not in south Russia, but in the Balkan.

And what about the origin of the haplogroup I? Is there a relation with
R1a?

willy
11-06-10, 23:43
1) Haplogroup I :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Haplogroup_IJ_%28Y-DNA%29.jpg

Time of origin25,000-30,000 years BP
Place of origin Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe) or Asia Minor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Minor)
AncestorIJ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_IJ_(Y-DNA))DescendantsI1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_(Y-DNA)), I2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA))
Defining mutationsM170, M258, P19, P38, P212, U179Highest frequenciesCroats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croats) 45% (North)- 74% (South)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Marjanovic2005-0), Bosniaks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks) 48%[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Marjanovic2005-0), Norwegians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegians) 40%[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Rootsi2004-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Passarino2002-2), Sardinians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinia) 37%[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Francalacci2003-3)-42%[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Rootsi2004-1), Swedes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedes) 26% (North)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Rootsi2004-1)-50% (Gotland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotland) & Värmland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4rmland))[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Karlsson2006-4), Danes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_people) 39%[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Rootsi2004-1)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Sanchez2003-5), Germans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans) 37.5%[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Semino2000-6), Serbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs) 36% (Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Pericic2005-7), Bosnia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Marjanovic2005-0)), Icelanders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelanders) 33%, Finns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns) 20% (Eastern)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Lappalainen2008-8)-41% (Western)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Lappalainen2008-8), Hungarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians) 11%[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Semino2000-6)-28%[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Tambets2004-9), Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia) 20%[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Semino2000-6)-25%, Netherlands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands) 25%, England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England) +20%, Romanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians)/Moldovans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldovans) 22%[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Rootsi2004-1)-48% (Buhuşi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buhu%C5%9Fi) & Piatra Neamţ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piatra_Neam%C5%A3))[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Varzari2006-10), Bulgaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria) +20%

2) Haplogroup R1a :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Haplogroup_R1a_%28Y-DNA%29.jpg

Time of originprobably more recent than 18,500 years BP [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-0)
Place of originAsia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia), probably South Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia). Other possibilities include Central Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia), Middle East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East), and Eastern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe).
AncestorR1 (R-M173) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1_(Y-DNA))DescendantsR1a1a1 to R1a1a8. R-M458 being the most significant (R1a1a7 in Underhill et al. (2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFUnderhill_et_al.2009))).
Defining mutations1. M420 now defines R1a in the broadest sense.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Underhill_et_al._2009-1)
2. Within R1a, SRY1532.2 also known as SRY10831.2, now defines R1a1, previously R1a.
3. M17 and M198 (equivalent to one another) now define R1a1a, previously R1a1, and often referred to as if equal to R1a.Highest frequenciesParts of Eastern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe), Scandinavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia), Central Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia), Siberia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia) and South Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia). (See List of R1a frequency by population (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_R1a_frequency_by_population))


http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/uyger2.jpg

M9 lineage = K, L (M20), M (P256), NO (M214) (N and O), P (M45) (Q and R), S (M230) and T (M70)
M130 = C1, C2, C3, C4, C5
YAP = all E, D
M89 = G (M201), H (M52), I (M170), J (12f2.1), K
M45 = P
M173 = R1
M17 = R1a

Haganus
12-06-10, 00:26
Many thanks for your information. It is for me clearer.
But I do not understand: does the R1a of the Scandinavians and
the inhabitants of the British Island originate in the Balkan or Russia?
According to newest discoveries in the Balkan.

And the haplogroup I: is there a prove that it has his origin
in southwest France? What has happened with Cro-Magons
and Aurignacs?

willy
12-06-10, 01:06
About I , well ... I think they are gone firstly in Europe may be also scandinavia but during the ice age they went in the southern europe (the Balkan) anyway the first place origin was Asia minor.
The highest frequency of the I Haplogroup can be found in Scandinavian and Croatian populations. This lends support to the hypothesis that the Adriatic region of modern-day Croatia served as a refuge for northern populations during the last glacial maximum. The hypothesis states that after the LGM there was a migration from the north east by the people whose offspring today form a significant portion of the Scandinavian populations. These groups seem to be the ancestors of about 38% of modern day Croats (75% of Bosnian Croats). There are also indications that this haplogroup is tied to the Celtic culture. The spread of the I group in western Europe could be consistent with the Celtic expansion that occurred in the mid-first millennium BC. We have no prove about I in southwest of France About Cro Magnon he seems to be the ancestor of the europeans as haplo I
that I and J are especially connected and are considered to have had a common origin. "The mutation of IJ corresponds to a second Out of Africa wave some 45 kya that subsequently spread into Europe (Cro-Magnon)." and about Aurignac I don't know ?

Haganus
12-06-10, 01:19
Many thanks for answering my questions. But when the bearers of R1a came
from Siberia to the Balkan, did the bearers of haplogroup R1a (the
ancestors of the Scandinavians and British) go direct to the northwest?
I used to think that the bearers of Scandinavian and British R1a originated
in the Ukraine. So the Germanics had an origin in the Balkan Peninsula.

Erik

willy
12-06-10, 01:30
Yes I think also that Ukraine is the good place for R1a germanic - Scandianvian - origin

Nico

Haganus
12-06-10, 09:55
But see the message on the website genealogy from yesterday:
it seems that the haplogroup R1 a for the Scandinavians and British
originated in Balkan! I used to think: Ukraine.

Erik

secherbernard
12-06-10, 10:24
Here is a guy who has balls ! too Manichean man and still observed in all human cultures
Indo European is a family of langages not a "cowboys Indians" game


Right I agree for some subclades with "emerged" not "arrived " you got it ? I have serious doubts about your sense of nuance .




"what great forgetting !!" Yeah a great bullshit hun ! you are too funny you should give lessons to Balaresque send her an email Patricia will appreciate your help
Once more, Willy, you have no argument...

willy
12-06-10, 14:38
I ) I would like to tell you that David Anthony (professor of anthropology) disputed Gimbutas's assertion that there was a widespread matriarchal society prior to the Kurgan incursion on Europe for him they was " warrior culture " as Gimbutas 's idea long before the Kurgan.

2) Andrew Fleming, in "The Myth of the Mother Goddess" disagreed also with Gimbutas' s idea that Neolithic spirals, circles, and dots were symbols for eyes; that eyes, faces, and genderless figures were symbols of a female; or that certain of Gimbutas' female figures were symbols of a goddess or goddesses .

3) Gimbutas theory involves a physical homogeneous steppe "kurgan" people dispersion at the same time (or during some different times) to Western or central Europe and also to Iran and North India so we should find the same markers and haplogroups on Western Europe and on North India so that's true about a very few Western Europeans who share a common genetic with some Indian of Hinduism upper castes as haplogroups R1a and J2 but this is not the case about the atlantic modal R1b1b2 ht15 .

4) Young subclades of R1b1b2 ht15 appear and not arrive in Europe during the diffusion of the bronze so their ancestors were neolithic farmers according Sir Colin Renfrew . Gimbutas explains that the Indo European elites has been formed to rule the conquered people (I do not share this point of view) but according her and by definition a elite concerns few people so this is not the case in Europe with the majority of this too common R1b1b2 ht15 haplogroup .

5) The origin of the Indo European languages is older than claims Gimbutas .

Open your eyes man ! You can not logically match R1b1b2 ht15 to the Indo European Gimbutas 's theory

secherbernard
12-06-10, 15:42
I ) I would like to tell you that David Anthony (professor of anthropology) disputed Gimbutas's assertion that there was a widespread matriarchal society prior to the Kurgan incursion on Europe for him they was " warrior culture " as Gimbutas 's idea long before the Kurgan.

2) Andrew Fleming, in "The Myth of the Mother Goddess" disagreed also with Gimbutas' s idea that Neolithic spirals, circles, and dots were symbols for eyes; that eyes, faces, and genderless figures were symbols of a female; or that certain of Gimbutas' female figures were symbols of a goddess or goddesses .

3) Gimbutas theory involves a physical homogeneous steppe "kurgan" people dispersion at the same time (or during some different times) to Western or central Europe and also to Iran and North India so we should find the same markers and haplogroups on Western Europe and on North India so that's true about a very few Western Europeans who share a common genetic with some Indian of Hinduism upper castes as haplogroups R1a and J2 but this is not the case about the atlantic modal R1b1b2 ht15 .

4) Young subclades of R1b1b2 ht15 appear and not arrive in Europe during the diffusion of the bronze so their ancestors were neolithic farmers . Gimbutas explains that the Indo European elites has been formed on the conquered people (I do not share this point of view) but according her and by definition a elite concerns few people so this is not the case in Europe with the majority of this too common R1b1b2 ht15 haplogroup .

5) The origin of the Indo European languages is older than claims Gimbutas .

Open your eyes man ! You can not logically match R1b1b2 ht15 to the Indo European Gimbutas 's theory
Once more Willy is the king of google and "drag and drop". The problem, Willy is that you don't understand what you "drag and drop".
In your quotes, there is no argument that IE is not from Pontic Steppes.
You quote David Anthony, but I am agree with Anthony. In his book "The horse, the wheel and the language", Anthony gives the proof that proto IE lived in Pontic Steppes.

I quote Anthony from his book page 458:

The Indo-European problem can be solved today because archaeological discoveries and advances in linguistics have eaten away at problems that remained insoluble as recently as fifteen years ago... Linguistic and archaeological discoveries now converge on the probability that Proto-Indo-European was spoken in the Pontic-Caspian steppes between 4500 and 2500 BCE, and alternative possibilities are increasingly difficult to square with new evidence.Once more Willy, you have no argument...

willy
12-06-10, 16:02
Once more Willy is the king of google and "drag and drop". The problem, Willy is that you don't understand what you "drag and drop".
In your quotes, there is no argument that IE is not from Pontic Steppes.
You quote David Anthony, but I am agree with Anthony. In his book "The horse, the wheel and the language", Anthony gives the proove that proto IE lived in Pontic Steppes.

I quote Anthony from his book:


Once more Willy, you have no argument...

You are agree with David Anthony when he disputed Gimbutas's assertion that there was a widespread matriarchal society prior to the Kurgan incursion on Europe ? So for him they was " warrior culture " as Gimbutas 's idea on Europe long time before the Kurgan ! This is just your last argument man ! I doubt that you read correctly David Anthony .

Remember your last post : " .... It is written that the mythology of Neolithic farmers is based on mother goddess in a matriarcal society, and IE mythology is based on males gods in a patriarcal society. So it is impossible that IE are Neolithic farmers. It is one strong argument among many others." You are in complete contradiction with yourself guy :sad-2:

" Linguistic and archaeological discoveries now converge on the probability that Proto-Indo-European was spoken in the Pontic-Caspian steppes between 4500 and 2500 BCE, and alternative possibilities are increasingly difficult to square with new evidence "

Amen

Your problem is that you have no other readings to exercise your critical thinking

secherbernard
12-06-10, 16:13
You are agree with David Anthony when he disputed Gimbutas's assertion that there was a widespread matriarchal society prior to the Kurgan incursion on Europe ? So for him they was " warrior culture " as Gimbutas 's idea on Europe long time before the Kurgan ! This is just your last argument man ! I doubt that you read correctly David Anthony .

So funny man : remember your last post : " .... It is written that the mythology of Neolithic farmers is based on mother goddess in a matriarcal society, and IE mythology is based on males gods in a patriarcal society. So it is impossible that IE are Neolithic farmers. It is one strong argument among many others." You are in complete contradiction with yourself guy :sad-2:
I am agree with David Anthony because he tells also in his book that patriarcal society is born in herders society in the Pontic Steppes.

pages 328 and 364:

The speakers of late Proto-Indo-European expressed thanks for sons, fat cattle, and swift horses to Sky Father, *dyew pater, a male god whose prominence probably reflected the importance of fathers and brothers in the herding units that composed the core of earthly social organization...The institution of the Miinnerbiinde or Korios, the warrior brotherhood of young men bound by oath to one another and to their ancestors during a ritually mandated raid, has been reconstructed as a central part of ProtoIndo-European initiation rituals.Read book Willy! Take your source from the author and not from google!

willy
12-06-10, 16:54
I am agree with David Anthony because he tells also in his book that patriarcal society is born in herders society in the Pontic Steppes.
Read book Willy! Take your source from the author and not from google!

Does Anthony talking about R1b1b2 ht15 in his books ?

secherbernard
12-06-10, 17:15
Does Anthony talking about R1b1b2 ht15 in his books ?
:laughing: Once more Willy you have no argument!
Nobody said that Anthony talk about genetic in his book :laughing:

willy
12-06-10, 17:37
:laughing: Once more Willy you have no argument!
Nobody said that Anthony talk about genetic in his book :laughing:



Ok I knew this reply so NO surprise now what scientific studies suggests R1b1b2 ht15 and the relationship to these Anthony 's Pontic steppe tribes ? I mean besides the crap you can read on Eupedia and what you bring everywhere .

secherbernard
12-06-10, 17:55
I mean besides the crap you can read on Eupedia
I am not sure that Maciamo will appreciate ... mostly when you tell that on Eupedia's forum...

willy
12-06-10, 19:42
I am not sure that Maciamo will appreciate ... mostly when you tell that on Eupedia's forum...


Ok so what ? then I see ... you're not used to free expression :wary2: . Eupedia give some good infos and bad infos so we are not in a soviet power .

Haganus
12-06-10, 20:02
But did you read the Secher Bernard 's message from yesterday? See
the link with website "Genealogy". According to this message the
bearers of haplogroup R1a (Scandinavia and UK) originated from the
Balkan and not from the Ukraine.

Erik

secherbernard
12-06-10, 20:52
Ok so what ? then I see ... you're not used to free expression :wary2: . Eupedia give some good infos and bad infos so we are not in a soviet power .
Insults are the speech of those who have no argument.
You can tell that Maciamo is wrong when he speak about R1b here : http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origines_haplogroupes_europe.shtml#R1b but you must give arguments for that.
The fact that you choose insults rather than arguments is not a surprise for me. Freedom has nothing to do with this.

Haganus
12-06-10, 23:19
But please who can give me answer? I read testerday a website in which
it has been written that the Slavic R1a came from Russia and the R1a
(UK, Ireland and Scandinavia) originated in the Balkan. See the messages
of yesterday with website.

willy
12-06-10, 23:38
Insults are the speech of those who have no argument.
You can tell that Maciamo is wrong when he speak about R1b here : http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origines_haplogroupes_europe.shtml#R1b but you must give arguments for that.
The fact that you choose insults rather than arguments is not a surprise for me. Freedom has nothing to do with this.

While R1b1b2 is most common in western Europe, some other lineages thought to have been brought into Europe by Neolithic farmers tend to be most frequent in the Near East, where the farmers started their journey. Their frequency in populations drops as one moves from the south-east to the north-west of the continent, the route taken by the agriculturalists.

http://www.sanger.ac.uk/about/press/2010/100126.html

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100119133508.htm

http://www.physorg.com/news183129440.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8467623.stm

LeBrok
13-06-10, 01:13
But please who can give me answer? I read testerday a website in which
it has been written that the Slavic R1a came from Russia and the R1a
(UK, Ireland and Scandinavia) originated in the Balkan. See the messages
of yesterday with website.
I don't have time to do that, but look through Eupedia archive there is a map of battle axe culture, central and north Europe. It was dominated by R1a and it extends through east to Ural mountains, and the Balkans are not included. It also corresponds exactly with herding cows and lactose tolerance map. I couldn't find any earlier settlements of R1a in central, south and north Europe. Looks like they cam from the east.

willy
13-06-10, 02:47
But did you read the Secher Bernard 's message from yesterday? See
the link with website "Genealogy". According to this message the
bearers of haplogroup R1a (Scandinavia and UK) originated from the
Balkan and not from the Ukraine.

Erik

Haganus : I don't think that R1a Scandinavian comes from the Balkan if Mr Secher said the Balkan this is again a wrong information so this man is used to that kind of bullshit :cool-v:

secherbernard
13-06-10, 08:09
While R1b1b2 is most common in western Europe, some other lineages thought to have been brought into Europe by Neolithic farmers tend to be most frequent in the Near East, where the farmers started their journey. Their frequency in populations drops as one moves from the south-east to the north-west of the continent, the route taken by the agriculturalists.

http://www.sanger.ac.uk/about/press/2010/100126.html

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100119133508.htm

http://www.physorg.com/news183129440.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8467623.stm
:laughing: We have already spoken about Balaresque paper. Once more Willy, you have no argument.
You forget Willy, that R1b1b2 ht15 emerged in copper age. The ancestors of ht15: ht35 lived in the east. So R1b1b2 arrived in Western Europe in copper age, not in neolithic times.

secherbernard
13-06-10, 08:11
this man is used to that kind of bullshit :cool-v:
Insults is the speech of those who has no argument... Willy is used to insults because he asserts always the same things without any argument, and so he cannot support any discussion (this thread is a good demonstration).

I stop to speak with you Willy: your are just a poor guy!

willy
13-06-10, 09:07
:laughing: We have already spoken about Balaresque paper. Once more Willy, you have no argument.
You forget Willy, that R1b1b2 ht15 emerged in copper age. The ancestors of ht15: ht35 lived in the east. So R1b1b2 arrived in Western Europe in copper age, not in neolithic times.

Here is an other scientific study who support Renfrew's theory :
Gray and Atkinson (2003) - by glottochronological arguing, (using phylogenetic techniques from evolutionary biology) - dated PIE to the 8th or even 9th millennium, concluding that their findings support Renfrew's theory over the Kurgan model.

willy
13-06-10, 09:26
:laughing: We have already spoken about Balaresque paper. Once more Willy, you have no argument.
You forget Willy, that R1b1b2 ht15 emerged in copper age. The ancestors of ht15: ht35 lived in the east. So R1b1b2 arrived in Western Europe in copper age, not in neolithic times.


- If you know well your IE readings you should see that there is a serious problem to date the Indo European language in Gimbutas 's work and the estimated age or R1b1b2 ht15 in Europe so I am not sure you got it .

- R1b1b2 ht15 (some subclades of h15) emerged on Western Europe during the cooper age this is probably right so it does not mean "arrived from somewhere" to Europe . Excuse me Sir but you have a problem to understand the concepts .

- I can see on Eupedia :

M269
R1b1b2 (R1b1c)
9,500 ybp
Western Europe Italo-Celto-Anatolian

willy
13-06-10, 09:28
Insults is the speech of those who has no argument... Willy is used to insults because he asserts always the same things without any argument, and so he cannot support any discussion (this thread is a good demonstration).

I stop to speak with you Willy: your are just a poor guy!

Sir Secher , my argument are just scientific studies on R1b1b2 I do not see the same in your argument to convince me !
Your I.E theory is just some wind mixed to the haplogroup R1b1b2 ht15 and Indo European wrong Gimbutas 's ideas.

samarido
13-06-10, 20:51
if i can add a few words. why r1b couldn't come via old turkey and across the Mediterranean, in ships and through land speaking IE and with the concept of agriculture while r1a, also IE, would originate north of the black sea and then expand. Gimbutus theory is correct, but only when stuck against northern type of IE and r1a. It hardly relates to r1b, because there is not much r1b north of the Black Sea. Besides, in IE mythology and language agriculture is well represented. No reason to make it nomad-only.

willy
14-06-10, 00:33
"There is not much R1b on the northen black sea" : CORRECT !

1 ) This is why that's difficult to associate R1b1 to the I.E according the Gimbutas 's theory So as you say in the IE mythology and language farming is well represented there is no reason to make it only nomad .

2 ) R1a match with Gimbutas and R1b match with Renfrew the " truth " is probably a mixture of that two hypothesis .
As we know according a recent study the IE languages are much more older than claims Gimbutas and this fact support Renfrew ' s hypothesis .

3) Some R1a tribes may have to come to Iran and India long time after the setting of the Atlantic haplogroup R1b1b2 ht15 on Western Europe . R1a - R1b1b2 ht15 paths are separated in time and space .

4) The R1b1b2 migration from Anatolia to Western Europe is clear according DNA evidence and also support Renfrew 's theory .

5) We must separate the " Indo-European ideology " according Gimbutas's view to the Indo European language .
All these wrong ideas about " patriarchal " and " matriarchal society " etc .. associated or not with Indo-European languages must be rejected. IE is only a linguistic concept !

6) Human cultures are not absolutely " warlike " or only " agricultural " the reality is more complex and we can see more of a mixture or an organization of these two functionalities precisely found among people who speak IE languages .

7) By definition language is transmitted in various types of human groups and at different times .

8) The R1a haplogroup seems mostly to be associated to a pastoral way of life . R1b1b2 haplogroup is seen as earlier Anatolian farmers. Some warlike powerful societies may have formed later within those two groups during the bronze age and further the Iron age .

9) Bronze and iron origin start in Caucasus so we notice a late spread of these technologies on the Western Europeans R1b1b2 comparing to the early Near East advanced civilizations . There was not a " R1b1b2 ht15 - IE Pontic " invasion on Western Europe. According Colin Renfrew this is a naive point of view .

My arguments are not univocal bibliographic references as Mr S.. proposes but are based on last DNA and linguistic scientific studies .

zanipolo
12-01-12, 02:11
i came across this map of germanic tribes 400AD

http://www.rollintl.com/roll/germanics.htm

No scirii

LAke constance is Lacus Venetus ( named after Venetic script found there)

The bastanae and Peucini are missing

Vindelicia is not regarded as a germanic tribe

Silingae(i) are south east of burgundians and are a gothic tribe

zanipolo
13-01-12, 04:57
I recently found a map on german tribes in link below


Just wanting to ask , that there are some names in larger print indicating to me, that the smaller printed tribes are branches of the larger print.

http://www.rollintl.com/roll/germanics.htm

other things I noticed

-Venedae ( venedi) are the baltic lithuanians , prussians or estonians

- sarmatians are very northernly , they might be west-slavs

- vindilicia , noricum are not germanic

- lagus Venetus , means venetic lake , strabo could be correct in indicating the venetic where there as well as recently found script OR are Vindelicia also venetic?