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Shetop
24-07-10, 02:32
I must write this first - Please don't take me wrong, my intensions are not malicious.
Since there are several Croats active on this forum I have a question for them mostly, but also anyone else who could be familiar with this issue is welcome to answer this.

The question is - How come surname Horvat is mostly found in regions which are not I2a2 dominant regions? That is, as far as I know this surname is mostly found in Northwest Croatia (Kajkavian dialect region), Hungary and also in Slovenia.

If there are people who could be connected to this surname it seems to me that those should be R1a people (but not R1a1a7). I think that for answering this question it might be good to remind about two
medieval Croatian states - Panonian and Littoral.

To prove that I'm just searching for the truth I will write my current opinion that "Serb" as a name is very possibly connected to Sorbs in east Germany, and it is also known that they are mostly R1a (and I guess not R1a1a7).

Shetop
24-07-10, 02:54
The point of my question from above could be some kind of conclusion that both names "Serb" and "Croat" are actually of Iranian origin, but at the same time I2a2 people remain disconnected from this Iranian story.

And of course if this would be correct then I2a2 would have to be connected to Slavs which corresponds to mainstream opinion.

Aristander
24-07-10, 04:31
I grew up in a community in Texas that was populated with the children and grand-children of Sorbian immigrants in Texas. Here they referred to themselves and Wends. Apparently that is not considered correct in Europe these days. The Sorbian speakers didn't have a lot of trouble communicating with other Slavic immigrants in the area. Czech, Slovak and Polish were more prevalent but all of the Slavic immigrants seemed to have developed a common intelligible tongue.
I don't know enough about the roots of the word Sorb and Serb but I suspect that there was a common ancestor tribe that moved into Central Europe about 2000 years ago that probably had contact with Aryan Iranic tribes like the Alans. So that is probably where the I2a2 connection comes in.
It is my personal belief that the Serbs, Sorbs and other Slavic tribes all originated in the area north of the Black Sea, and followed the Germanic tribes of a slightly earlier era into Europe.
About the name Horvat or Horvath, most of the people I have known who had the name thought of themselves of Hungarian or Slovak origin. I have heard that Horvat actually means Croatian in Magyar.

Dalmat
24-07-10, 18:27
I have heard that Horvat actually means Croatian in Magyar.


this is true,during Hapsburg monarchy(usually its time when most of the ppl in europe got their surnames,and are not called by clan or w/e) some Hungarians moved into Croatia,and vice versa.I actually spoke with Hungarian historian,and he said to me that they usually give surnames to ppl that came from other country by their nationality.So for instance in Hungary you have German surnames(of course with their way of saying German)...etc.
Hungarians say Horvat for Croatian,we say Hrvat,and we say Mađar for hungarian,and we have surnames like mađarević...etc

Hope it helps

Shetop
24-07-10, 20:28
this is true,during Hapsburg monarchy(usually its time when most of the ppl in europe got their surnames,and are not called by clan or w/e) some Hungarians moved into Croatia,and vice versa.I actually spoke with Hungarian historian,and he said to me that they usually give surnames to ppl that came from other country by their nationality.So for instance in Hungary you have German surnames(of course with their way of saying German)...etc.
Hungarians say Horvat for Croatian,we say Hrvat,and we say Mađar for hungarian,and we have surnames like mađarević...etc

Hope it helps

Yes, this explanation makes a lot of sense.

Unfortunately it doesn’t lead to any special conclusions regarding more distant (medieval) history.

LeBrok
24-07-10, 22:41
One day I was thinking about Slavic last names. Supposedly there was one Slavic language about 0-500 BC, and even now Slavic languages are very similar. How come in Poland you have lots last names ending with ski and nothing with ić, and on Balkans most end with ić and nothing with ski? Anyone can shine some light on it?
Maybe ić originated with I2a2, but the rest of language got slavonized? On other hand polish legend says that ruling elite with names ending with ski came from Sarmatia.

Dalmat
24-07-10, 23:09
One day I was thinking about Slavic last names. Supposedly there was one Slavic language about 0-500 BC, and even now Slavic languages are very similar. How come in Poland you have lots last names ending with ski and nothing with ić, and on Balkans most end with ić and nothing with ski? Anyone can shine some light on it?
Maybe ić originated with I2a2, but the rest of language got slavonized? On other hand polish legend says that ruling elite with names ending with ski came from Sarmatia.


IDK where exactly -ić comes from,but i know why most of the Balkan surnames end like that.At the time of Kingdom of SHS(Serbs,Croats(Hrvati),Slovenians) or 1st Yugoslavia,my grandfather told me ,who was born in 1914,that his grandfather told him how almost everybody added -ić on the end of the surname in some kind of south Slav movement,in other words:"da se svi osjecaju jugoslaveni"or in translation,so everybody feel like Yugoslavian.Before that,not many surnames ended on -ić,but still there was some(usually of noble stock who had surnames before everybody else,but also -ski wasn't unusual,like for instance Šubić-Zrinski).Yugoslavian means south-slavian BTW.
Funny fact is that at the time of my great grandfather,everybody called everyone by clan,surnames were laughed upon,and there could be 10 different clans under same surname,in same area,and lots of clan names became surnames with added -ić



Shetop,there is less i2a in north Croatia,because Croatia was vassal of Hungary for about 500 years give or take,so ppl moved to Hungary and from Hungary(and Austria) on daily basics.
Thats why you have less i2a there,but also lots of it in Hungary.

LeBrok
24-07-10, 23:46
Thanks Dalmat, it explains. Good history lesson.

vadu
10-08-10, 08:19
Funny fact is that at the time of my great grandfather,everybody called everyone by clan

Hi Dalmat.
I've just back from Croatia - beatiful country:good_job:, frendly people:heart:. Expensive, though:disappointed:.
I am wondering where I can read about your clans' names and history. I never heard before you kept this tradition alive.