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Taranis
08-08-10, 22:51
I know that R1a is pretty scarce in Western Europe, but I thought it might be worth asking this: what is the origin of R1a in Western European countries? How/when was it accumulated to the levels we witness today?

LeBrok
09-08-10, 02:06
Some R1a could have arrived to Western Europe with Goths, Vandals, Swabs or Attila the Hun. All these tribes where in touch, or ruling R1a for few hundreds of years. If it comes to Germanic tribes, they always contained R1a.

Yorkie
08-10-10, 14:02
According to Jim Wilson of Ethnoancestry, most R1a1 found in British men comes from the Norwegian Viking invasions. A smaller percentage was carried by Danes and Anglo Saxons.

There are several different forms of R1a1, some lean more towards Germany, some towards Scandinavia, some are of a Slavic type etc. Ultimately, the consensus appears to be that all R1a1 n Europe is linked to the Corded Ware/Battle Axe culture and the Indo-European 'Kurgan' expansions.

Maciamo
10-10-10, 09:37
R1a in Western Europe is probably in great part the result of the Germanic invasions (Vikings included). Some of it could have been there from the Indo-European expansion that brought R1b1b2 to Western Europe.

willy
13-10-10, 00:48
R1a in Western Europe is probably in great part the result of the Germanic invasions (Vikings included). Some of it could have been there from the Indo-European expansion that brought R1b1b2 to Western Europe.

R1b1b2 was NOT braught to Western Europe during the IE expansion because R1b1b2 is on Western Europe since the neolithic and may be before ...

Taranis
13-10-10, 08:34
R1b1b2 was NOT braught to Western Europe during the IE expansion because R1b1b2 is on Western Europe since the neolithic and may be before ...

R1b-M269 clearly didn't arrive before the Neolithic, it's too young for that, and it's also present in Central Asia, meaning that the mutation happened - with all likelihood - before R1b migrated into Europe. Conversely, R1b-P310 must have happened after the arrival in Europe. So, in my opinion, this narrows down the arrival of R1b in Western Europe to after about 5000 BC and before 2000 BC.

I must agree however that M269 did not arrive in Europe with the Corded-Ware Indo-Europeans.

Melusine
23-10-10, 17:43
For anyone interested re: R1a and R1b , referenced information by geneticists.

Yahoo search : western europes human population 2000 years ago. Go to results about page 5, article name: Genetic history of Europe Facts, Discussion Forum. Abolute astronomy.

Melusine

Maciamo
24-10-10, 09:04
R1b1b2 was NOT braught to Western Europe during the IE expansion because R1b1b2 is on Western Europe since the neolithic and may be before ...

Impossible, the latest study on the structure of R1b (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25949) clearly shows that all the first subclade to be exclusively European was R1b1b2a1 (M412), not R1b1b2.

R1b1b2a1 is about 6000 years old, which places it in the early Bronze Age. And most Western Europeans belong to clades further downstream, most of which are less than 4000 years old.

If R1b1b2a1 came during the Neolithic expansion, it would have to be at least 9,000 years old, which is the time when the Neolithic farmers left Anatolia for Europe.

willy
25-10-10, 23:42
Impossible, the latest study on the structure of R1b (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25949) clearly
R1b1b2a1 is about 6000 years old



From where it comes from I mean before Western Europe ?

how yes no 2
27-10-10, 00:55
R1a in Western Europe is probably in great part the result of the Germanic invasions (Vikings included). Some of it could have been there from the Indo-European expansion that brought R1b1b2 to Western Europe.
genetically, I would put apart Germans and Vikings....
at least because Scandinavians and Vikings had abundance of R1a for a long time, while Germans of today mostly acquired it from Slavs in east Germany...
Gots on other hand might have carried some R1a already from Gotland... later they lived surrounded with Slavs, so they could spread it later to their countries in south Europe... for this there would need to be correlation between R1a levels and I1 levels in areas covered by Visigoth state
Btw. how do we know that R1a was not there before R1b but in low numbers? or that certain percentage of R1a was not arriving together with R1b from Asia...we just can't know that....
R1a and R1b share common origin and it is not unthinkable that some populations throughout history harboured both of them in decent percentages...

Maciamo
27-10-10, 10:37
genetically, I would put apart Germans and Vikings....
at least because Scandinavians and Vikings had abundance of R1a for a long time, while Germans of today mostly acquired it from Slavs in east Germany...


You are right saying that Scandinavians should be a separate category from other Germanic peoples, but I disagree that German R1a is of Slavic origin. Ancient DNA tests (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml) have proven that R1a was already in Germany during the Corded Ware period, at least 4500 years ago, and STR markers show a continuity with modern German R1a. The Slavs only came to Central Europe in the late Antiquity, less than 1500 years ago.

Besides, most of the Slavic R1a falls into the R1a1a1g (M458) subclade, which is present at low frequencies in Austria, Bavaria and Thuringia (according to the map below) and almost inexistent in the rest of Germany, Scandinavia and Western Europe. Judge by yourself (this map is from the R1a study by Underhill 2009 (http://www.scribd.com/doc/23322591/Underhill-Et-Al-2009-Separating-the-Post-Glacial-Coancestry-of-European-and-Asian-Y-Chromosomes-Within-Hap-Lo-Group-R1a)).

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a1a1g.jpg

The reason why I would place Scandinavians in a separate category from other Germanic people is because of their higher degree of Siberian admixture (hg N and Q) and consequently the higher incidence of Mongoloid features.

Yorkie
27-10-10, 11:09
You are right saying that Scandinavians should be a separate category from other Germanic peoples, but I disagree that German R1a is of Slavic origin. Ancient DNA tests (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml) have proven that R1a was already in Germany during the Corded Ware period, at least 4500 years ago, and STR markers show a continuity with modern German R1a. The Slavs only came to Central Europe in the late Antiquity, less than 1500 years ago.

Besides, most of the Slavic R1a falls into the R1a1a1g (M458) subclade, which is present at low frequencies in Austria, Bavaria and Thuringia (according to the map below) and almost inexistent in the rest of Germany, Scandinavia and Western Europe. Judge by yourself (this map is from the R1a study by Underhill 2009 (http://www.scribd.com/doc/23322591/Underhill-Et-Al-2009-Separating-the-Post-Glacial-Coancestry-of-European-and-Asian-Y-Chromosomes-Within-Hap-Lo-Group-R1a)).

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a1a1g.jpg

The reason why I would place Scandinavians in a separate category from other Germanic people is because of their higher degree of Siberian admixture (hg N and Q) and consequently the higher incidence of Mongoloid features.

If you refer to the recent Corded-Ware burial remains found in Eulau, Germany you are correct. The remains were close to the norm for German-leaning R1a1 rather than the Slavic form.

Re Scandinavians having a higher degree of Siberian admixture and Mongoloid features; it surely depends upon which Scandinavians you mean. I don't see much N and Q, or 'Mongoloid' features amongst the Danes for example.

On another topic, I've sent you a couple of private emails requesting help re H5 Mtdna. Did you receive them? I'd appreciate your kind advice if possible, please.

Maciamo
27-10-10, 11:59
On another topic, I've sent you a couple of private emails requesting help re H5 Mtdna. Did you receive them? I'd appreciate your kind advice if possible, please.

Sorry, I don't have time to reply to emails (nor to all forum posts for that matter). If you asked the question on the forum and I didn't reply it means I don't have much to say on the topic, or it requires too much research.

Yorkie
27-10-10, 14:04
Sorry, I don't have time to reply to emails (nor to all forum posts for that matter). If you asked the question on the forum and I didn't reply it means I don't have much to say on the topic, or it requires too much research.

No problem. I know you have a lot on your plate running the forum.

All the best.

how yes no 2
28-10-10, 21:32
hm, well let's see whether Maciamo have a clue about what he claims....
let's peak into supplementary info for the work you quote:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n4/extref/ejhg2009194x4.pdf
table 1 shows that
R1a in Germany samples is the same as the one dominant in Slavic (M458 that is R1a1a*), while for Sweden for every 12 Slavic alike samples, 1 is different (R1a1*), and for Norway for every 9 Slavic-alike samples there is 1 different... in Greece for every 6 Slavic-alike samples there is one different (R1a1*).....
I think that R1a1* was probably first of several waves to enter Europe... its spread is only on north most and south most area, which indicates that it was likely pushed out on margins but later invaders... its distribution doesnot match with Corded ware that hardly reached Norway and was never near Greece
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Corded_Ware_culture.png
thus, this was a wave before Corded ware... a wave that was later pushed out to margins of Europe by later settlement waves from Asia and Asia minor...also by Corded ware invaders...

table s2 focus on R1a1a* and shows a difference between M458 and R1a1a7* parts of it:

N R1a1a total R1a1a*(xM458) R1a1a7* Reference
Western Europe
Norway 74 23.0 23.0 0 This study
Sweden South (Malmö) 141 18.4 16.3 2.1 This study
Denmark East 17 5.9 5.9 0 This study
Denmark Island (East) 10 10.0 10.0 0 This study
Denmark North 43 11.6 11.6 0 This study
Denmark West 19 15.8 15.8 0 This study
Denmark Southeast 23 13.0 8.7 4.3 This study
Netherlands West 47 4.3 0 4.3 This study
Netherlands North 22 9.1 9.1 0 This study
Netherlands Southeast 19 5.3 5.3 0 This study
Ireland East 16 6.3 6.3 0 This study
Ireland North 21 9.5 9.5 0 This study
Ireland South 24 0 0 0 This study
Ireland Southwest 22 0 0 0 This study
Ireland West 16 0 0 0 This study
England Central 25 0 0 0 This study
England North 29 3.4 3.4 0 This study
England Southeast 25 0 0 0 This study
England Southwest 25 0 0 0 This study
France East 25 4.0 4.0 0 This study
France 16 0 0 0 This study
France West 14 0 0 0 This study
France, HGDP-CEPH 12 0 0 0 This study
Spain, Andalusia 29 0 0 0 15
Germany 16 6.3 6.3 0 This study
Germany West 100 5.0 5.0 0 This study
Germany East 47 29.8 19.1 10.6 This study
Germany South 91 11.0 4.4 6.6 This study
Germany Central 19 15.8 5.3 10.5 This study
Germany North 65 15.4 12.3 3.1 This study
Austria 19 26.3 21.1 5.3 This study
Switzerland Northeast 32 6.3 6.3 0.0 This study
Switzerland Northwest 27 3.7 3.7 0.0 This study
Switzerland South 16 0 0 0 This study
Switzerland 16 0 0 0 This study
Central, Eastern and Northern Europe
Poland (Zamosc) 98 57.1 20.4 36.7 Updated from 8
Poland Southwest (Wroclaw) 93 55.9 32.3 23.7 This study
Poland Central 42 47.6 14.3 33.3 This study
Poland South 22 50.0 13.6 36.4 This study
Poland North 17 52.9 29.4 23.5 This study
Poland West 15 26.7 20.0 6.7 This study
Poland East 13 46.2 30.8 15.4 This study
Ukraine Central-eastern (Dneprovskii) 114 43.9 21.1 22.8 This study
Ukraine West (Lvov, Ivanovo-Frankovsk) 157 43.3 27.4 15.9 This study
Ukraine Western-central (Hmelnitsk) 179 49.2 41.3 7.8 This study
Ukraine Southeast (Donetsk) 93 34.4 23.7 10.8 Updated from 8
Ukraine East (Belgorod) 56 46.4 41.1 5.4 This study
Ukraine Central 28 17.9 10.7 7.1 This study
Belorussia Central 50 42.0 38.0 4.0 This study
Belorussia West (Brest) 97 58.8 36.1 22.7 This study
Belorussia Northeast (Vitebsk) 100 60.0 47.0 13.0 This study
Czech Republic (2 locations) 88 34.1 8.0 26.1 This study
Slovakia (Bratislava) 82 45.1 18.3 26.8 This study
Slovakia West 109 44.0 25.7 18.3 This study
Slovakia East 38 52.6 34.2 18.4 This study
Slovakia South 23 60.9 39.1 21.7 This study
Slovakia North 22 45.5 31.8 13.6 This study
Hungary 113 20.4 15.9 4.4 Updated from 16
Slovenia (2 locations) 180 30.0 27.2 2.8 This study
Russians Russia South (Belgorod) 143 62.2 50.3 11.9 Updated from 17
Russians Russia Central (Kostroma) 52 30.8 19.2 11.5 Updated from 17
Russians Russia Central (Pskov) 132 47.0 34.8 12.1 Updated from 17
Russians Russia South (Orel) 110 61.8 47.3 14.5 Updated from 17
Russians Russia Southwest 22 27.3 13.6 13.6 This study
Russians Russia Northwest 14 42.9 28.6 14.3 This study
Estonia 210 34.3 28.6 5.7 This study
Karelians (Russia) 140 40.7 27.1 13.6 This study
Vepsa (Russia) 39 38.5 23.1 15.4 This study
Circum-Uralic region
Chuvashis (Russia) 117 25.6 25.6 0 This study
Bashkirs (Russia) 126 28.6 28.6 0 This study
Maris (Russia) 49 26.5 26.5 0 This study
Komis-permyans (Russia) 60 36.7 36.7 0 This study
Komis (Russia) 52 5.8 1.9 3.8 This study
Tatars from Bashkortostan (Russia) 39 15.4 12.8 2.6 This study
Tatars from Tatarstan (Russia) 66 39.4 34.8 4.5 This study
Udmurts (Russia) 141 18.4 16.3 2.1 This study
South-eastern Europe
Croatia mainland 108 26.9 24.1 2.8 Updated from 17
Croats Osijek (Croatia) 29 37.9 37.9 0 Updated from 8
Croats Split (Croatia) 89 25.8 16.9 9.0 Updated from 8
Croatia Krk Island 74 36.5 24.3 12.2 Updated from 17
Croatia Korcula Island 134 15.7 12.7 3.0 Updated from 17
Croatia Brac Island 49 24.5 22.4 2.0 Updated from 17
Croatia Hvar Island 91 6.6 6.6 0 Updated from 17
Croats, Bosnia 90 12.2 7.8 4.4 Updated from 8
Bosnia (2 locations) 163 23.3 12.9 8.6 Updated from 8
Serbs, Bosnia 83 13.3 8.4 4.8 Updated from 8
Serbia 113 15.9 12.4 3.5 Updated from 18
Albanians, Kosovo 114 3.5 3.5 0 Updated from 18
Montenegro 103 6.8 6.8 0 This study
Herzegovina 141 12.1 11.3 0.7 Updated from 18
FYROM, Macedonia 79 13.9 10.1 3.8 Updated from 18
Albania 55 10.9 5.5 5.5 Updated from 8
Greece (2 locations) 263 12.9 9.1 4.2 Updated from 8
Greeks, Macedonia 57 12.8 1.8 8.8 Updated from 8
Crete 193 8.8 7.8 1.0 Updated from 3
Crete 168 10.7 7.1 3.6 Updated from 2
Romania 335 17.0 11.6 5.4 This study
Italy South (2 locations) 163 1.8 1.8 0 This study
Italy North 124 6.5 6.5 0 This study
Italy Northeast 64 7.8 7.8 0 Updated from 8

Obvious conclusion is that this split can not differentiate between "Slavic" and "non-Slavic" R1a, since "non-Slavic" one dominates most Slavic nations, while "Slavic"one dominates some completely non-Slavic nations... (btw. see reminder of Table for Asia where the one that you might call "Slavic" is hardly present which in fact indicates its dominantly European origin)

only conclusion is that your claims cannot in any interpretation be based on genetic results presented in the work that you have quoted


You are right saying that Scandinavians should be a separate category from other Germanic peoples, but I disagree that German R1a is of Slavic origin.
that is debatable...
if you consider R1a1a7* as only Slavic related part of M458 you might get weird ideas like that...
but than you get lot of dominantly non-slavic Slavs like Russians, Ukraines, Serbs, Czechs, Croats, Bosnians, Montenegers, southwest Poland, west south east and north Slovakia, south central and northwest Russia,... and even in remainder of Slavic areas with what you call Slavic R1a only tightly dominant..
and next to all those non-Slavic south Slavs you also get extremely Slavic Greece province of Macedonia...fascinating...isn't it?
you also get Slavic central and south Germany and less Slavic east Germany . completely Slavic west Netherlands as opposed to completely non-Slavic east and north Netherlands... :innocent:

Ancient DNA tests (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml) have proven that R1a was already in Germany during the Corded Ware period, at least 4500 years ago, and STR markers show a continuity with modern German R1a.
really?
can you get support for distinction between German and Slavic R1a in table above?

and more important are you trying to prove something with single sample? we do not really now yet Corded ware DNA... one leaf does not tell everything about a nearby forest......



The Slavs only came to Central Europe in the late Antiquity, less than 1500 years ago.
actually you are wrong there... we can discuss about when IE Slavic languages and cultures came to Europe....but table above gives a clue that genetical forfathers of most Slavs of today are in Europe for long time...

Besides, most of the Slavic R1a falls into the R1a1a1g (M458) subclade, which is present at low frequencies in Austria, Bavaria and Thuringia (according to the map below) and almost inexistent in the rest of Germany, Scandinavia and Western Europe. Judge by yourself (this map is from the R1a study by Underhill 2009 (http://www.scribd.com/doc/23322591/Underhill-Et-Al-2009-Separating-the-Post-Glacial-Coancestry-of-European-and-Asian-Y-Chromosomes-Within-Hap-Lo-Group-R1a)).
ehm, M458 is the name for most European R1a... in fact, besides being overwhelming in slavic lands, it maps better to non-Slavic lands and is probably more frequent in older expansion (not necesserilly corded ware) ...
again, based on the data from the work that you quote, only conclusion is that your claims cannot in any interpretation be based on genetic results presented in the work that you have quoted



The reason why I would place Scandinavians in a separate category from other Germanic people is because of their higher degree of Siberian admixture (hg N and Q) and consequently the higher incidence of Mongoloid features.
N R1a1a total R1a1a*(xM458) R1a1a7* Reference
Western Europe
Norway 74 23.0 23.0 0 This study
Sweden South (Malmö) 141 18.4 16.3 2.1 This study
Denmark East 17 5.9 5.9 0 This study
Denmark Island (East) 10 10.0 10.0 0 This study
Denmark North 43 11.6 11.6 0 This study
Denmark West 19 15.8 15.8 0 This study
Netherlands North 22 9.1 9.1 0 This study
Netherlands Southeast 19 5.3 5.3 0 This study

Denmark Southeast 23 13.0 8.7 4.3 This study
Netherlands West 47 4.3 0 4.3 This study

Germany 16 6.3 6.3 0 This study
Germany West 100 5.0 5.0 0 This study
Germany East 47 29.8 19.1 10.6 This study
Germany South 91 11.0 4.4 6.6 This study
Germany Central 19 15.8 5.3 10.5 This study
Germany North 65 15.4 12.3 3.1 This study
Austria 19 26.3 21.1 5.3 This study

Guachelin
01-04-12, 04:55
Besides, most of the Slavic R1a falls into the R1a1a1g (M458) subclade, which is present at low frequencies in Austria, Bavaria and Thuringia (according to the map below) and almost inexistent in the rest of Germany, Scandinavia and Western Europe.



I hope that you or someone can clear this up.
I am R1a1a1 SNP Z93+, SNPs M417, M198 positive, L2833-, L284-

Full results:


Your Halogroup
Tests


R1a1a1
Z93+ M417+ M198+ Z94- Z284- Z283- PK5- P98- M64.2- M56- M458- M434- M157.1- L176.1- L175- L12-




According to Lapinski, given that I am Z93+, I am R1a1a1h*,
I am M458-, M417+

I have a long ancestral history in England, documented to the reign of Henry VII, and it is believed to be of Norman origin.

I am , apparently, not of Scandanavian Viking origin, my surname is of French Norman origin.

But the real question is why would L. Lapinski have me at R1a1a1g* as I'm Z93+, but M458-

Dubhthach
01-04-12, 19:05
I hope that you or someone can clear this up.
I am R1a1a1 SNP Z93+, SNPs M417, M198 positive, L2833-, L284-

Full results:


Your Halogroup
Tests


R1a1a1
Z93+ M417+ M198+ Z94- Z284- Z283- PK5- P98- M64.2- M56- M458- M434- M157.1- L176.1- L175- L12-




According to Lapinski, given that I am Z93+, I am R1a1a1g*, however I am M458-, M417+

I have a long ancestral history in England, documented to the reign of Henry VII, and it is believed to be of Norman origin.

I am , apparently, not of Scandanavian Viking origin, my surname is of French Norman origin.

But the real question is why would L. Lapinski have me at R1a1a1g* as I'm Z93+, but M458-

According to latest draft tree from ISOGG Z93* = R1a1a1h*
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

Perhaps he mistyped. Here's a fairly recent version of his R1a tree taken from R1a project site.
http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/ft-d/R1a-ch.jpg

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/ft-d/R1a-ch.jpg

Guachelin
01-04-12, 19:11
thanks I caught that about 1 hr ago, and have edited my post.

Thank you very much

Taranis
03-04-12, 13:55
According to latest draft tree from ISOGG Z93* = R1a1a1h*
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

Perhaps he mistyped. Here's a fairly recent version of his R1a tree taken from R1a project site.
http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/ft-d/R1a-ch.jpg

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/ft-d/R1a-ch.jpg

Interesting trees, thanks for sharing that.

Regarding the original thread topic, it would be interesting to see now the various concentrations of Western European R1a plot:

In my opinion, the only sensible candidates for me for "native" subclades of R1a (that is, not having their in relatively late, historic times, ie. Migration Period, Vikings, etc.) in Western Europe are either R1a1a* and R1a1a1i (R1a-L664). It would be interesting to see where and how R1a from Ireland, Scotland, the Auvergne and Cantabria plot here and if they have any sizable occurence of the above. If not, well, any other subclades Z284, Z280 etc. are certainly from later events (Vikings, Goths, Suebi, Anglo-Saxons, Franks, etc. - depending on the area, some of the French and Iberian R1a may even be Sarmatian in origin, but I expect the latter to be hardly more than noise).

Dubhthach
04-04-12, 00:14
Interesting trees, thanks for sharing that.

Regarding the original thread topic, it would be interesting to see now the various concentrations of Western European R1a plot:

In my opinion, the only sensible candidates for me for "native" subclades of R1a (that is, not having their in relatively late, historic times, ie. Migration Period, Vikings, etc.) in Western Europe are either R1a1a* and R1a1a1i (R1a-L664). It would be interesting to see where and how R1a from Ireland, Scotland, the Auvergne and Cantabria plot here and if they have any sizable occurence of the above. If not, well, any other subclades Z284, Z280 etc. are certainly from later events (Vikings, Goths, Suebi, Anglo-Saxons, Franks, etc. - depending on the area, some of the French and Iberian R1a may even be Sarmatian in origin, but I expect the latter to be hardly more than noise).

As far as I known R1a-L664 marks what is known as the "NorthWestern branch" of R1a. Which appears to be marked by DYS388=10

According to post here, L664 was found in irish person

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-08/1314070421

L664 : Found in an Irish member of the Northwestern (DYS388 = 10) branch,
and confirmed in a 1000 Genomes sample. May include much or all of that
branch.

R1a-Z284 seems to be specifically linked with Scandinavia, the presence of it's subclades in Scotland and Ireland have been associated with the Vikings. Particulary L448 and it's subclade L176

zanipolo
05-04-12, 09:15
found this link updated from 25 march 2012 ( very big ), while checking in italian Dna for R1a1a1i Z280 in north east italy. Asscociation I found with the rugii and Heruli ( both pommeranian germanic tribes ), tribes between the oder and vistula rivers.

Check site.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results

Eldritch
02-06-13, 13:25
found this link updated from 25 march 2012 ( very big ), while checking in italian Dna for R1a1a1i Z280 in north east italy. Asscociation I found with the rugii and Heruli ( both pommeranian germanic tribes ), tribes between the oder and vistula rivers.

Check site.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results
In the latest study no R1a in NE Italy so there might be strong differences from an area to another.

Guachelin
10-01-14, 19:39
An update on my R1a1a1b2 (SNP Z93+, Z94-) I've been earnestly trying to ascertain the ethnicity of my earliest British ancestor. The Family surname is Farrar. Variations are Ferror, Ferrour, Fairer, Fareher, Fairher, Ferrar, Farrer and possibly more than I can find at the moment.

My earliest documented ancestor was a Henry Ferror, this man,during the reign of Edward IV (1471), was wealthy enough to purchase land and build a manoral hall, Ewood, in Halifax Parish, West Riding Yorkshire. The family was ubiquitous, wealthy and prominent in Yorkshire, Westmoreland, Durham counties of England. They made their fortune initially in wool, and bought up land and manoral halls around England, leasing land for coal mining.

The family appears out of thin air so to speak, save that a Ferror and wife (Ferror&uxor) appear in the 1379 Subsidy rolls for Yorkshire in the village of Eland (Elland) which is walking distance from Ewood Hall. But as tenants on the land of a John Elliston (Johannes Helistones), not as a land holder. By 1609 the family had earned armorial bearings.

A much believed and prominent ideation amongst the Farrars (of America and Europe) is that we descend from the Norman Henri de Ferrariis, who founded the de Ferrers, now Ferrers. This belief originated from a biographer of Nicholas Ferrar (cousin of my ancestor William Ferrar who migrated to Va in 1618, this lineage is well documented)

The revelation that Farrar YDNA (including some English participants in the project) is R1a1a1b2 (SNP Z93) has caused a rethink as to the ethnicity of our British ancestor.
Hypothesis range from a Sarmatian (Iazgye) auxillary of the Legus Romano Sextus Victrix which was stationed at York and whose veterans retired to Bremetenacum Veteranorum (Ribchester), Ewood Hall (or what was Ewood, which was torn down in the 1970's) is located some 17 crow miles from Ribchester and is bracketed between York and Ribchester, so that theory seemed reasonable, but not provable.

Second hypothesis was that Henri de Ferrariis, founder of the Ferrer(Ferrers) line was of Alani (A Sarmatian Tribe) ancestry, again unprovable.

Third hypothesis is that our ancestor was a Hungarian courtier in the entourage of Margaret and Edgar Aetheling, children of Edward the Exile, born in Hungary and invited back to England to inherit the crown by Edward the Confessor, but who had to flee to Scotland when Guillaume le betard conquerant, set Quillaume de Peverel and Henri de Ferrariis, to subdue the Saxon Earls Aedwin and Morcar, sons of King Algar.

These Saxons had pledged fealty to Wm after Hastings, but on learning of the Domesday survey and it's taxation purpose, they reneged on the pledge, and William set his lieutenants to bring Mercia to heel, and they set to Harrying the North en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrying_of_the_North‎ causing the death of hundreds of thousands of Saxons, and forcing Margaret Aetheling and her court to flee to Scotland, where she married Malcolm III (MacBeth fame).

Coincidentally one of the Farrar DNA project members is surnamed Farrar, and he matches me 62/67 and tests positive for Z93, ergo also R1a1a1b2, as are over thirty other members, including an Evans and an English,these are not NPE's (Non Paternal Events either). Douglass documents his earliest known ancestor to Perthshire Scotland born 1735.

And all of this comes around to the Roma of Scotland. While it is known that the major Roma haplgroup is H1a, it is also known that R1a1a1b2 is found amongst Hungarian Roma.

It is also a fact that Douglass, and possibly Evans, Farr, Farrow and Faa are gypsie (Traveller) names.

I do not think that the question is answerable, but the possibilities are interesting.

Who would have thought that the much sought after, by personages so proud of their ancestry to Virginia, the Revolution and the Confederacy, might be if Gypsy ancestry.

Goga
10-01-14, 20:31
According to 23andme R1 arose in the Middle East. Here's their whole story.


https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/795x666q90/838/zttx.png

Goga
10-01-14, 20:43
So this is maybe actually the real route of R1*, according to 23andme.

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x360q90/51/anatolianhypothesis.jpg

khufu
19-02-14, 09:29
Arab maybe after Islam from north Africa from Saudi or yemen

sonici
11-09-14, 11:38
R-DNA is our ancestoral DNA(Turkic) and we have fought&invaded our brothers in history because of politics.. as our ancestors have done it against central asian Turkic brothers(Seljuk-Khwarezmian-Ghaznavid-Ottoman-Safevid wars)

sprang
13-02-18, 15:42
Is L664 a Germanic haplogroup in general or will I have to do further testing for my subclade?

Sile
03-05-18, 23:18
I ran my wife's DNA through

https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Promethease/Haplogroup

and the Ydna result she got was R-M512 Z282

Unsure how accurate this ydna prediction is via promethease

Salento
03-05-18, 23:42
I ran my wife's DNA through

https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Promethease/Haplogroup

and the Ydna result she got was R-M512 Z282

Unsure how accurate this ydna prediction is via promethease
Are you saying that they can predict the Y Haplogroup of the Father in the DNA of Women?

Sile
04-05-18, 00:36
Are you saying that they can predict the Y Haplogroup of the Father in the DNA of Women?

they did for this but I need to cross reference..........I just need to upload my 1st cousin and since I know she is i1d-P109 ....if this comes up , then it works.

they do find mtdna for men ...........i used myself and my father

same as I cross reference in mtdna ....jameslick program and mitomaster

Salento
04-05-18, 00:47
they did for this but I need to cross reference..........I just need to upload my 1st cousin and since I know she is i1d-P109 ....if this comes up , then it works.

they do find mtdna for men ...........i used myself and my father

same as I cross reference in mtdna ....jameslick program and mitomaster

A cross reference result would be Interesting to see, plus we’ll know how accurate their prediction algorithm is.
Thanks, Sile.

Tomenable
04-05-18, 09:44
Some data about FTDNA customers with R1a haplogroup from England:

This data is from 2015-16, I'm sure that now there are more samples:

http://i.imgur.com/Pmy2qiI.png

Tomenable
04-05-18, 19:05
I think that most of R1a in Germany is Slavic (as well as some Baltic, Old Prussian) simply because of how it is distributed, and because it belongs to the same branches as common Slavic branches. Compare frequencies of R1a among Western European nations and Germans, and how R1a is distributed in Germany:

Western Europeans:

Population (Zeit) ----------- % Haplogruppe R1a (Stichprobenumfang / sample size)

Flandern (heutzutage) ---------------------------- 4,3% (695)
Brabant (heutzutage) ----------------------------- 4,0% (große)
Wallonien (heutzutage) --------------------------- 4,0% (74)
England (vor 1914) ------------------------------- 4,0% (1830)
England (heutzutage) ----------------------------- 4,5% (>5000)
Irland (heutzutage) ------------------------------- 2,5% (>5000)
Wales (heutzutage) ------------------------------- 1,0% (411)

Balts and North Slavs:

Population (Zeit) ----------- % Haplogruppe R1a (Stichprobenumfang)

Kaschuben (einheimische) ------------------------ 63,4% (268)
Kleinpolen (heutzutage) -------------------------- 63,2% (212)
Kurpie (einheimische) ----------------------------- 61,4% (158)
Kociewie (einheimische) -------------------------- 56,3% (158)
Großpolen (heutzutage) -------------------------- 54,8% (343)
Litauer (heutzutage) ------------------------------ 42,2% (301)
Letten (heutzutage) ------------------------------ 40,0% (große)

Germany (regional %):

Population (Zeit) ----------- % Haplogruppe R1a (Stichprobenumfang)

Sorben (einheimische) ---------------------------- 65,0% (123)
Oberschlesien (vor 1914) ------------------------- 63,0% (48)
Brandenburg an der Havel (vor 1914) ---------- 50,0% (14)
Niederschlesien (vor 1914) ----------------------- 48,0% (48)
Ostpreußen (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 45,2% (84)
Graz, Österreich (heutzutage) -------------------- 42,9% (große)
Dessau–Roßlau (vor 1914) ------------------------ 42,9% (7)
Chemnitz (vor 1914) ------------------------------ 40,0% (10)
Dresden (heutzutage) ----------------------------- 32,6% (große)
Rostock (heutzutage) ------------------------------ 32,4% (96)
Halle an der Saale (heutzutage)* --------------- 30,3% (234)
Leipzig (heutzutage) ------------------------------ 27,1% (144)
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (vor 1914) ---------- 25,8% (31)
Berlin (heutzutage) ------------------------------- 23,7% (232)
Sachsen (vor 1914) ------------------------------- 22,0% (41)
Bern (heutzutage) -------------------------------- 21,4% (???)
Magdeburg (heutzutage) ------------------------- 21,0% (100)
Greifswald (heutzutage) ------------------------- 19,2% (104)
Sachsen-Anhalt (vor 1914) ---------------------- 17,7% (34)
Kassel (vor 1914) --------------------------------- 17,7% (17)
Hamburg (heutzutage) -------------------------- 16,8% (161)
Oberpfalz (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 16,7% (6)
Nord Osttirol -------------------------------------- 16,0% (235)
Köln (heutzutage) -------------------------------- 15,6% (96)
Braunschweig (vor 1914) ----------------------- 14,3% (14)
München (heutzutage) ------------------------- 14,3% (112)
Thüringen (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 13,2% (38)
Unterfranken (vor 1914) ------------------------ 11,5% (26)
Freiburg im Breisgau (vor 1914) ---------------- 10,8% (102)
Lüneburg (vor 1914) -----------------------------10,0% (20)
Schleswig-Holstein (vor 1914) ----------------- 10,0% (20)
Niedersachsen (vor 1914) ----------------------- 9,8% (82)
Lausanne (heutzutage) -------------------------- 9,4% (???)
Bayern (vor 1914) -------------------------------- 8,6% (93)
Hessen (vor 1914) -------------------------------- 8,5% (82)
Mainz (heutzutage) ------------------------------ 8,4% (95)
Weser-Ems (vor 1914) -------------------------- 8,3% (24)
Hannover (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 8,3% (24)
Münster (heutzutage) -------------------------- 7,8% (102)
[Münster (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 9,1% (11)]
Rheinhessen-Pfalz (vor 1914) ------------------ 7,8% (64)
Gießen (vor 1914) ------------------------------- 7,1% (14)
Karlsruhe (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 6,7% (60)
Düsseldorf (vor 1914) -------------------------- 6,7% (15)
Darmstadt (vor 1914) --------------------------- 5,9% (51)
Oberfranken (vor 1914) ------------------------ 5,9% (17)
Baden-Württemberg (vor 1914) -------------- 5,7% (176)
Tübingen (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 5,3% (19)
Rheinland-Pfalz (vor 1914) -------------------- 5,2% (116)
Stuttgart (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 4,4% (68)
Mulheim (heutzutage) -------------------------- 3,4% (59)
Nordrhein-Westfalen (vor 1914) -------------- 2,8% (72)
Koblenz (vor 1914) ------------------------------ 2,7% (37)
Oberbayern (vor 1914) ------------------------- 0,0% (20)
Arnsberg (vor 1914) ----------------------------- 0,0% (17)
Saarland (vor 1914) ----------------------------- 0,0% (16)
Trier (vor 1914) ---------------------------------- 0,0% (15)
Detmold (vor 1914) ----------------------------- 0,0% (14)
Schwaben (vor 1914) --------------------------- 0,0% (11)
Mittelfranken (vor 1914) ----------------------- 0,0% (10)
Bremen (vor 1914) ------------------------------ 0,0% (5)

^^^ The map of R1a in Germany and Austria posted below is based on this data:

http://oi68.tinypic.com/6enpso.jpg

http://oi68.tinypic.com/6enpso.jpg

Compare with the map of European languages in 1100 AD (this map is from: Grover S. Krantz, Professor of Anthropology, "Geographical Development Of European Languages", American University Studies, Series XI, Anthropology and Sociology, Vol. 26):

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/40_Language/KranzG1988GeogrDevelopmOfEurLanguages/KrantzGCh7Fig26.jpg

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/40_Language/KranzG1988GeogrDevelopmOfEurLanguages/KrantzGCh7Fig26.jpg

In 800 AD the extent of Slavic languages was even larger than in 1100 AD, as it also included most of Austria in 800 AD:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/4a/fe/f2/4afef23f5949d5fcc2ff8a40deb4049c--pol-genealogy.jpg

AxelHagen
02-09-19, 21:06
Not only slavs brought this HG in W Europe. Corded Ware culture was in Germany, Netherlands and Scandinavia(including Jutland culture of Corded Ware)

matty74
03-09-19, 18:59
How significant was the impact of the Hanseatic League when came to the spread of different DNA across the Baltic and North Seas? I have a distant Norwegian ancestor that emigrated from Germany to Telemark in the 1500's and started a lumber business there.

Illyri
03-09-19, 19:04
[QUOTE=Tomenable;541068]Some data about FTDNA customers with R1a haplogroup from England:

This data is from 2015-16, I'm sure that now there are more samples:
...

Does anyone have an idea of the historical event that brought R-Z283*, R-Z280 and R-M458 in England ?

Dibran
03-09-19, 19:28
.....

We can't be sure about Where Z283 originally was. Some believe it's descending clades(M458,Z280, Z284) split somewhere around Central Europe with the Corded Ware Culture.

There are plenty of Z280 ancient samples, most of which are found in Eastern/North-Eastern Europe. Currently there is no ancient pre-migration samples for M458. Z284 is mostly found in Scandinavia, and most clades are found in Western and Northern Europe.

Z280 in the Balkans is mostly from Slavic tribes. However, I believe many Baltic and Proto-Slavic tribesman were assimilated in the movements of Goths, so it could have been carried minimally by them. The same could be true in some cases of M458.

Currently it is too early to tell. We need more testing to define varied haplotypes to have an idea who specific clusters moved with.

In all probability my line came with Proto-Slavic tribes. However, my haplotype is part of a unique Albanian founder effect.

Currently my branch of L1029 is not found anywhere outside Albanians, with our Albanian forefather living sometime 1200 years ago. There is already some type of sub-clusters forming within Gheg/Tosk variants in the cluster.

So all we can definitely say in my case is the ancestor of this Albanian cluster was in East Europe/Central Europe some time between 1300-2100 (tel:1300-2100) years ago.

So in my case whether it was Slavic, Gothic or whatever, the Albanian haplotype looks to have formed somewhere around Dibra 1200 years ago, so likely entered in the later phase of Proto-Albanian development, taking part in Albanian ethnogenesis.

So we can say for sure it probably had nothing to do with Illyrians. My bet is most R1a in the Balkans is Slavic, Baltic, isolate German and Turkic clusters. Maybe some is Scythian and Sarmatian.

Sadly until more and more do full genome test we can't tell.

Illyri
03-09-19, 21:47
...
In all probability my line came with Proto-Slavic tribes. However, my haplotype is part of a unique Albanian founder effect.

Currently my branch of L1029 is not found anywhere outside Albanians, with our Albanian forefather living sometime 1200 years ago. There is already some type of sub-clusters forming within Gheg/Tosk variants in the cluster.

So all we can definitely say in my case is the ancestor of this Albanian cluster was in East Europe/Central Europe some time between 1300-2100 (tel:1300-2100) years ago.

So in my case whether it was Slavic, Gothic or whatever, the Albanian haplotype looks to have formed somewhere around Dibra 1200 years ago, so likely entered in the later phase of Proto-Albanian development, taking part in Albanian ethnogenesis.

So we can say for sure it probably had nothing to do with Illyrians. My bet is most R1a in the Balkans is Slavic, Baltic, isolate German and Turkic clusters. Maybe some is Scythian and Sarmatian.


Thanks for the information Dibran.
I have read about your "Dibra Cluster" on www.gjenetika.com and I must say that it is really interesting that it also appears among Tosk Albanians.
As for your bet about R1a in the Balkans, you are most likely right (given the forming ages and TMRCA of the present subclades).
That being said, my haplotype could also be part of the Albanian ethnogenesis since three of its current bearers now live in places where Albanians settled during the Middle-ages (Northern Greece [Gumenica], Sicily [Palermo] and Bulgaria [Stara Zagora]). But, all this is mere speculation for the moment as I could well end up being closer to the two other known bearers (living in the UK and Russia).
I am waiting for my BigY results and hope they will provide some useful information (as I do not even know the forming age of R-YP3994, though the TMRCA should not exceed 2400 ybp).

Illyri
03-09-19, 21:52
Here is a map of R-Y2902, which has an interesting distribution in Europe:

11367

Trojet
03-09-19, 23:40
I am waiting for my BigY results and hope they will provide some useful information (as I do not even know the forming age of R-YP3994, though the TMRCA should not exceed 2400 ybp).

The "formed age" of a clade is always the TMRCA of the one it descends from. So in this case, the formed age of R-YP3994 should be ~2400 ybp (the TMRCA of R-Y2902). It's nice that you have ordered the BigY. You will get a TMRCA estimate with the Italian from Palermo, which should be less than ~2400 ybp. However, I'm not sure how many other BigY/NGS tests currently there is for R-YP3994. It's possible some of the others on FTDNA only tested YP3994+ through a SNP Pack. There should be at least one more since it takes two NGS tests to form a subclade, so perhaps the second one chose to hide his sample on YFull.

Illyri
04-09-19, 07:49
The "formed age" of a clade is always the TMRCA of the one it descends from. So in this case, the formed age of R-YP3994 should be ~2400 ybp (the TMRCA of R-Y2902). It's nice that you have ordered the BigY. You will get a TMRCA estimate with the Italian from Palermo, which should be less than ~2400 ybp. However, I'm not sure how many other BigY/NGS tests currently there is for R-YP3994. It's possible some of the others on FTDNA only tested YP3994+ through a SNP Pack. There should be at least one more since it takes two NGS tests to form a subclade, so perhaps the second one chose to hide his sample on YFull.

Thanks for the explanation about the forming age. It makes perfectly sense.
The other BigY/NGS tested person is perhaps the british gentleman. In any case, the two other guys from the R1a project have not ordered such tests.