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bud
05-09-10, 09:28
Hi there

Seems to be a lot of knowledgeable people on here i was wondering what people can tell me about my Haplogroup which is I(M170)

my surname is Sorbian in origin which is a slavic minority group from Lusatia in Germany.

Thanks in advance :)

Maciamo
05-09-10, 10:37
I* (M170) is the Paleolithic lineage from which all subclades of I derive. I* is associated with Cro-Magnon and is very rare nowadays. Have you been tested for all subclades of I ?

bud
05-09-10, 11:35
I got my result from the National Geographic Geneographic project here is my results im not an expert on this subject so im not sure what to make of it all.

here is a screen shot
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2739/budo.png

iapodos
05-09-10, 21:18
I got my result from the National Geographic Geneographic project here is my results im not an expert on this subject so im not sure what to make of it all.
here is a screen shot i cant post it as an image as i havent made 10 posts
img715.imageshack.us/img715/2739/budo.png

I saw your results and you almost 100 % belong to haplogroup I2b1. It is haplogroup typical for Lower Saxony, and as you said that your surname is Sorbian by origin, it is understandable that you belong to haplogroup I2b1 becuse the Sorbs lives today in region of Saxony.

Look at map below,this is the position of I2b1 in Europe:
http://yorkyingers.com/dna_files/image002.jpg

And about haplogroup I2b1 from Eupedia:

I2b (formerly I1c) is associated with the pre Celto-Germanic people of North-Western Europe, such as the megaliths builders (5000-1200 BCE). The wide variety of STR markers within I2b could make it as much as 13,000 years old.

I2b is found in all Western Europe, but apparently survived better the Indo-European invasions (=> see R1b above) in northern Germany, and was reintroduced by the Germanic invasions during the late Roman period. Nowadays, I2b peaks in central and northern Germany (10-20%), the Benelux (10-15%) as well as in northern Sweden. It is also found in 3 to 10% of the inhabitants of Denmark, East England, and Northern France. It is rare in Norway, which concords with the fact that it hasn't been invaded by people from northern Germany.

There are two major subclades : I2b1 (M223+) and I2b2 (L38/S154+), further subdivided in at least 4 subclades each, although little is known about them yet. The subclade I2b1a (M284+) occurs almost exclusively in Britain, where it seemingly developed about 3,000 years ago.

bud
06-09-10, 03:32
Thanks for the information thats great :)

Maciamo
06-09-10, 07:43
I got my result from the National Geographic Geneographic project here is my results im not an expert on this subject so im not sure what to make of it all.

You should have said so directly. The National Genographic Project is not a trustworthy DNA test as only top haplogroups are tested and not subclades. But based on your STR's you are I2b1 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#I2).

bud
06-09-10, 08:18
Yeah its not very specific the information they gave me. But i guess it was a cheap test compared to some others i have looked at.
I also would like to get my mothers mtDNA tested as she is a Scot, whose from a Norman background. I was thinking of using the Genographic project again but ill look into other tests hopefully not nearing the 1k mark in price!

Gusar
10-09-10, 12:15
Oh wow an English speaking Sorb on the net. That has to be rare!

Theodisk
10-09-10, 14:42
I saw your results and you almost 100 % belong to haplogroup I2b1. It is haplogroup typical for Lower Saxony, and as you said that your surname is Sorbian by origin, it is understandable that you belong to haplogroup I2b1 becuse the Sorbs lives today in region of Saxony.

Sorry, but its a wrong information. Theres a big geographic difference between Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen), Saxony (Sachsen) and Saxony-Anhalt (Sachsen-Anhalt). Look on the maps of Wikipedia!

I2b you find in the Netherlands and in Northgermany. But also on the British Isles and other typical celtic/germanic regions.

The Sorbs (german: Sorben, Wenden) today live in the Lausitz and its a part of Brandenburg, Saxony (not Lower Saxony!) and a small part of poland.

The Sorbs are Slavic, and the most of them have the haplogroup R1a.

iapodos
10-09-10, 15:51
Sorry, but its a wrong information. Theres a big geographic difference between Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen), Saxony (Sachsen) and Saxony-Anhalt (Sachsen-Anhalt). Look on the maps of Wikipedia!
I2b you find in the Netherlands and in Northgermany. But also on the British Isles and other typical celtic/germanic regions.
The Sorbs (german: Sorben, Wenden) today live in the Lausitz and its a part of Brandenburg, Saxony (not Lower Saxony!) and a small part of poland.
The Sorbs are Slavic, and the most of them have the haplogroup R1a.
Everything you wrote is true, but Lower Saxony is not thousands of miles far away from Saxony where Sorbs today live. It is actually bordering region together with Saxony Anhalt. And I have posted a map of freqency of I2b with its peak in the region of Saxony-Anhalt.
http://yorkyingers.com/dna_files/image002.jpg
According to the same paper which states 64% of R1a for Sorbs, there is also 20% of I haplogroup among them, but it is not specifically said what subclade. I thought earlier that it could be I2a2 because they are Slavic, but now I am not so sure. It could very easily be I2b1.
So if the peak of I2b1 in Europe is in Saxony (Saxony-Anhalt) it is very possible that someone of Sorbian descent has I2b1 haplogroup. Is he Slav or German by origin is totally different question. He said by his own that he is of Sorbian descent.

bud
10-09-10, 16:18
yes I am sure that even though the Sorbs speak a Slavic language they are not necessarily fully slavic in that they migrated into what is now modern day Germany around the 9th and 10th century to suggest they did not interbreed with Germanic people in the last 1000 years is a bit far fetched.

Ive read online that even Hitlers third reich with its Germanic superiority eyed stance on Slavs said the Sorbs were German people speaking a slavic language.

No doubt i have Slavic and German blood in my dads side.

Imperium Romanorum
04-10-10, 12:56
History of the Sorbs (Wends)

Sorb People (Brandenburg and Saxony, Germany)
Sorben, Wenden

Remnants of ancient serbs who stayed in their homeland/domovina after the rest of serbs settled in today's Dinaria/south east europe.
Smallest Slavonic nation that has been aggressively germanized but nevertheless kept it's identity.


http://atlasgeo.span.ch/fotw/flags/de_sorbs.html
http://www.symmank.de/eng/sorbs.htm

Mzungu mchagga
04-10-10, 19:41
Oh wow an English speaking Sorb on the net. That has to be rare!

Here's a second one! :cool-v:
My surname is of Sorb origin, too, and I still have relatives in Lusatia.

Mzungu mchagga
04-10-10, 19:47
BTW marriages between Germans and Sorbs were quite common all time through! However, the Sorbs managed to maintain their cultural heritage.

bud
07-10-10, 02:10
Here's a second one! :cool-v:
My surname is of Sorb origin, too, and I still have relatives in Lusatia.
Hello brother :good_job:

iodalach_draiodoir
07-10-10, 02:32
Sorbs and Serbs are the same people in origin? Did they migrated to Dalmatia region?

iodalach_draiodoir
07-10-10, 02:32
Moreover, how do people know they are Sorbs in nowadays Germany?

Aristander
07-10-10, 05:35
Yeah its not very specific the information they gave me. But i guess it was a cheap test compared to some others i have looked at.
I also would like to get my mothers mtDNA tested as she is a Scot, whose from a Norman background. I was thinking of using the Genographic project again but ill look into other tests hopefully not nearing the 1k mark in price!
Are you adopted? If not then your mother's mtDNA should be identical to yours.

bud
07-10-10, 15:16
Are you adopted? If not then your mother's mtDNA should be identical to yours.

no thats what i meant. im not a scot, i worded it wrong :good_job:




Moreover, how do people know they are Sorbs in nowadays Germany?

In Lusatia they do, where they still speak the Upper and Lower Sorbian Slavic language and continue the Sorbian cultural activities.

Mzungu mchagga
07-10-10, 15:32
Sorbs and Serbs are the same people in origin? Did they migrated to Dalmatia region?

That's complete rubbish! Don't know who ever came up with that. I know that languages are not the best indicator for relation, but the sorbian language is definatly closest to the Czech language, in the lower sorbian language also with a lot of polish features.


Moreover, how do people know they are Sorbs in nowadays Germany?

Numbers in Germany are just estimations, as no ethnic divisions are made nowadays. It is up to the individual to which culture he feels closest with. As I don't speak a word of Sorbian language and my last "real" Sorb ancestor lived around 200 years ago I can't feel very much as a Sorb. However my surname sometimes reminds me of it.


Hello brother :good_job:

Hey bud! :good_job: How're doin' down there? Great to meet you! :-)

Haganus
07-10-10, 23:52
I should like to know more about the origin of haplogroup I. It is a typical
Germanic haplogroup. My grandmother 's family has this haplogroup
although her family had not an origin in the north of the Netherlands, but
in the centre of our country. I understand that the haplogroup I is the most ancient in northwest Europe (from the Mesolithicum). It has an origin in the Cro-Magnons in southwest France.

I understand that it is possible discover the hair and eye colours by DNA-tests. Is there something know about the Cro-Magnon's hair colour?

Is there a relation between the haplogroups I in northwest-Europe (Germanics) and the Guanchos on the Canarian Islands and Berbers?
I see them as a kind of cousins of the original men in the northwest
Europe.

Aristander
08-10-10, 00:17
Mzungu mchagga, you are correct about Czech and Wendish, I grew up in a multi-lingual area (a lot of Czechs, Wends and Poles) who also spoke English. The Czechs and Wends could pretty much speak to each other without too much trouble and be understood, however Polish was a little harder to make out. A funny thing is that if you put a group of bilingual children together who speak different slavic languages, they will come up with some interesting hybrids.

iapodos
08-10-10, 02:29
All slavic languages are linguistically very close, and even the south Slavs could communicate very easily with Czechs or Russians. It is supposed that all Slavs spoke one Proto Slavic language till 7th century AD.

bud
08-10-10, 10:00
Mzungu mchagga, you are correct about Czech and Wendish, I grew up in a multi-lingual area (a lot of Czechs, Wends and Poles) who also spoke English. The Czechs and Wends could pretty much speak to each other without too much trouble and be understood, however Polish was a little harder to make out. A funny thing is that if you put a group of bilingual children together who speak different slavic languages, they will come up with some interesting hybrids.

Cool i assume that you grew up in Texas? That is where the Wends migrated to in the States, as well as Canada and also the province of South Australia. Where im from.

how yes no 2
31-10-10, 05:35
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=361412#post361412
haplogroup I are Germanic tribes originating from area Kerman/Germania (sometimes named Aria) in Iran and Serbo-Croatian part of Sarmatian tribes also originating from Iran
haplogroup I in Asia
http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/
I would say this distribution shows passage of I from areas bellow Black sea and bellow Caspian sea to Europe through Caucasus. distribution indicates that the the passage is made next to the shores of Caspian sea which is logical route since east of it is mountain range...
furthermore, based on shape of its current distribution, and assuming general direction of movement towards north, I would dare to guess that perhaps the spread towards north started from iranian province of Kerman from where its carriers moved towards north, north-east, north-west and south-east...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Locator_map_Iran_Kerman_Province.png/250px-Locator_map_Iran_Kerman_Province.png


Historical documents refer to Kerman as "Karmania", "Kermania", "Germania" and "Žermanya", which means bravery and combat. Geographers have recorded Kerman's ancient name as "Go'asheer" (Bardesheer).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerman_province
the province of Kerman is more or less same as area related to term Aria, which explains Germans calling themselves Aryans
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/Greco-BactrianKingdomMap.jpg/800px-Greco-BactrianKingdomMap.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Greco-BactrianKingdomMap.jpg

The term Aryan derives from the Sanskrit word (ā́rya) आर्य (meaning:Noble), which derived from arya, the original Indo-Iranian autonym. Also, the word Iran is the Persian word for land/place of the Aryan[17] (see also Iranian peoples).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryanism#Aryanism
haplogroup I1 has entered Europe via Caucasus
distribution of haplogroup I seems to have arrived in two waves that correspond to German and Sarmatian tribes
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Haplogroup_I.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Scythia-Parthia_100_BC.png
first wave was probably only I1
while Sarmatian wave brought I2 mixed with second wave of R1a
some Sarmatian tribes moved to live in Germany
e.g. for Veneti/Veneds we know that
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti
similar story probably holds for Vandals who were probably I2a1 as attested by increased values of I2a1 in places of their last settlements (triangle Sevilla-Huelva-Cordoba in area of Andalusia in Spain and island of Sardinia)
see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25872 for details
haplogroup I2 has upon arrival to Europe or even before mixed with R1a..in fact mixture with R1a can be explained with knowing that in iranian lands R1a was situated at most east in areas of east Iran, Sogdia and Bactria..
comparing position of Pashtuns with small peak of I inside R1 area of Afganistan and Pakistan
http://www.heritage.org/static/reportimages/0F3F7F2CDF5E88D351EF61EB45193E1B.jpg
http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png
http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/
allows us to guess that I2, today dominant in south Slavs (Serbs and Croats), might be related to the small peak of I in that area...and that perhaps Pashtun tribe Sarbans is related to name Serbs..
on following map Pashtun Sarbans are in green
http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/images/maps/Pashtun_Confederacies_sm.jpg
I would say it is perfect match
common origin from haplogroup I also explains similarity of names Sardinia/Sarbans/Serbi/Suebi/Swede for culturally and linguistically different nations of today that origin from haplogroup I
Peak of I haplogroup on northeast
http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png
is related to Sogdiana
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdiana
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Sogdiana-300BCE.png
In fact, there was also early settlement by I2 that came to Europe before other I haplogroups and probably before most R1b (except perhaps the Basque which were first wave of R1b)

Veneti in Britanny do enter Britain as part of the Celtic wave...
they probably arrived in Europe as a first wave of I2 (carrying both I2a1 and I2a2), in more or less same time as first R1b settlers (Basques).. and before other I haplogroups...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26060
their origin is however the same with Sarmatian I2a1 and I2a2 carriers that came much later carrying the same tribal names - Veneti/Venedi and Vandali that settled in Germany
if you look map of haplogroup I
you may notice that M26 (I2a1) in Britanny in France matches pretty well the position of Veneti
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Haplogroup_I.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/Gaul%2C_1st_century_BC.gif/643px-Gaul%2C_1st_century_BC.gif
Veneti in Britanny were probably celticized with spread of Hallstat La-Tenne culture...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Hallstatt_LaTene.png
lack of R1a in west France indicates that the first Veneti came as I2 but without R1a
while later Sarmatian Veneti might have been mixed with R1a already before entering Europe as attested by both R1a and I2 in both areas of Adriatic and Vistula Veneti... in area of Vistula Veneti besides I2a2 was also I2a1 of Vandals that eventually moved with sarmatian Alans and germanic Suebes to Iberian peninsula where they settled south most part known today as Andalusia..

bud
31-10-10, 14:19
Interesting stuff how yes no. I had a 67 clade test done and it appears I am distinguished as I2b1c now.

bud
19-11-10, 14:21
Maciamo, what can you tell me about I2b1c as opposed to I2b1?

Catchabus
19-11-10, 21:23
double post

Catchabus
19-11-10, 21:23
Bud,

I2b1c corresponds to P78+, a group I presumably belong to. Über Haplogroup I researcher, Ken Nordtvedt considers this an older subclade of M-223. According to Professor Nordtvedt, I2b1c likely originated in central Germany.

BTW: You and I match 11 of 12 markers. I have 15 and DYS19, while you are at 16.

RH NEG-I
21-11-10, 16:56
Is it possible to gleen more information from the Genographic chart? This is the same one I recieved from National geographic. I must say I am disapointed with the whole Genographic project, not just for the slim results from testing but because it seems incredibly politicised as well....You get this seemingly globalist agenda as well in the associated media.

bud
22-11-10, 08:12
Catchabus Thanks for the info, guess we are very distantly related hehe

RH NEG-I you can use your STR markers that you get from the Genographic project to predict your haplogroup at this website http://www.hprg.com/hapest5/hapest5b/hapest5.htm
I noticed in the Scottish thread you posted the pic of it but you cropped off the numbers of the STR.

like mine here http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2739/budo.png

RH NEG-I
22-11-10, 18:40
Thanks for the heads up Bud!! here is the complete one.http://i1028.photobucket.com/albums/y343/scrapmetalbomb/DNastrs.png

bud
22-11-10, 19:11
99.7% that you are I1 According to he haplgroup predictor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_(Y-DNA)

You're a Viking Hehe

RH NEG-I
22-11-10, 19:43
Where do I pick up my helmet??

Tomenable
16-09-14, 18:29
I2b1c corresponds to P78+, a group I presumably belong to.
Some maps for this I2 P78:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/M223-Y-Clan/default.aspx?section=ymap

http://s12.postimg.org/liirvpkgt/image.png (http://postimage.org/)
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