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barbarian
24-09-10, 22:37
I wonder your opinions:

how do you describe super power?
which countrie(s) or union can be considered as superpowered (is EU or germany one of them)?
which countries are local power?
which countries do you think having the potential to be local or superpower?

barbarian
24-09-10, 23:54
here is what i think (for now).
- super power must have strong army, financial power, minimum 2-3 countries under their authority in all the important regions around the world, natural abundance, intelligence office, media power, a handsome fachism maked up with democrasy, some amount of nationalism, a well organised deep state in the shadow, uniform wealth level in the country, common nationality in the country, knowledge, and historical carier. some jewish people would be good addition (it is a compliment).

- i believe there is only one superpower on earth now, and that is US.
- EU is not superpower since there is too much different countries having different political targets; weak army; high level of democrasy. and the most importantly, they dont have claim or power on other parts of the world.
- Germany cannot be super power since it, in my opinion, has only strong economy and knowledge.
- Russia, Germany, France, UK, Sweden, Australia, India, China, Brasil (thanks to football), Japan and Mexica. are my choices for local powers.
- China has a chance to be superpower. but they are under the invasion of giants of capital which means that they may loose the control of the country, and they have non uniform race distribution which may, together with social unequalities, cause internal chaos.

i believe India has a chance also but not in the close future since they have the similar disadvantages with china. Brasil is my surprise.

Turkey, Khazakistan, Morocco, Nigeria can be local power in the future if they are lucky enough.

LeBrok
25-09-10, 06:15
I don't have much time to give your selections a thought at the moment, but I notice one thing. You're are (a little guess) third Turkish guy that started a thread/or revived old treads (this year), about military might of countries. Makes me wander what this trend means, if anything? Do you have strong public emphasis on military/or military education in Turkey?

If you want to figure out who is a superpower, check GDP of nations. USA is 15 trillion a year, EU is 15 trillion too ( in case of general danger, they can make lots of weapons and rather quickly, and common danger unites too). At about 4 trillion is China, Japan and Germany. Russia is about 2 trillion, but they have lots of nukes, and vast territory.

Modern warfare like WW2 (except nuclear holocaust) basically depends on destroying enemy's equipment faster than they can produce new. Airplanes and tanks will win the war, so will new technology. If enemy can't see you they won't kill you, like better radars and drone plains. Also the bigger the GDP the better the technology. So eventually it comes back to money. Who has more money will win the war. Well, at least statistically speaking, and if their own country is in danger.

Maciamo
25-09-10, 10:16
I don't think that any EU member state can be described as a separate superpower from the EU. All countries are two inter-dependent economically and bound by EU treaties.

The EU is obviously a superpower, and so are the USA, Russia, China and perhaps also India.

India is not a clear superpower for, despite its huge population, its influence on other countries is minor. Contrarily to Russia, India does not have any privileged relationships with countries in its periphery, and actually is in conflict with its main neighbours, Pakistan and Bangladesh.

I don't see any other country that qualifies as superpower.

Mzungu mchagga
25-09-10, 11:55
- super power must have strong army, financial power, minimum 2-3 countries under their authority in all the important regions around the world, natural abundance, intelligence office, media power, a handsome fachism maked up with democrasy, some amount of nationalism, a well organised deep state in the shadow, uniform wealth level in the country, common nationality in the country, knowledge, and historical carier. some jewish people would be good addition (it is a compliment).
crazy


- Russia, Germany, France, UK, Sweden, Australia, India, China, Brasil (thanks to football), Japan and Mexica. are my choices for local powers.
crazy

I do agree with LeBrok. Not claiming other one's territory abroad and therefor low interest for raising a monumental army doesn't mean not beeing able to produce a huge army on time and subsequently becoming a potential superpower.

Ridiculous to see that Brazil (thnks to football) is a local superpower while Turkey (thnks to ****** up football) is not.

barbarian
25-09-10, 13:01
I don't have much time to give your selections a thought at the moment, but I notice one thing. You're are (a little guess) third Turkish guy that started a thread/or revived old treads (this year), about military might of countries. Makes me wander what this trend means, if anything? Do you have strong public emphasis on military/or military education in Turkey?

If you want to figure out who is a superpower, check GDP of nations. USA is 15 trillion a year, EU is 15 trillion too ( in case of general danger, they can make lots of weapons and rather quickly, and common danger unites too). At about 4 trillion is China, Japan and Germany. Russia is about 2 trillion, but they have lots of nukes, and vast territory.

Modern warfare like WW2 (except nuclear holocaust) basically depends on destroying enemy's equipment faster than they can produce new. Airplanes and tanks will win the war, so will new technology. If enemy can't see you they won't kill you, like better radars and drone plains. Also the bigger the GDP the better the technology. So eventually it comes back to money. Who has more money will win the war. Well, at least statistically speaking, and if their own country is in danger.

This tread is not about military might it is about the definition of superpower. Army is only one of the criteria in my list. but it is one of the most important. it is not about i am turkish or education in turkey, although turkish nations in history have everytime concentrated on strong army and it may be in our genetic structure :disappointed:. Romans, Persians, Ottomans, Japan(?), Germany, UK, Russia, America had all stong army when they were in their primes. It is, for me, a historical fact.

So if you think GDP is the main criteria to decide, why France lost to Germany in WW2 in seconds. why America looks like only power (again, it is my idea) on earth. and why EU trying to create a EU army.

i dont want to focus on only one criteria in this discussion. infact, i didnt think about "what is th superpower" too much before. i just want to learn and have some fun, and i wonder what european people think about EU.

LeBrok
25-09-10, 18:05
France wasn't ready for the war, they just though they were. They also quit after first battle or so. To picture what I really meant look at guys that fought hard to the end. Germany lost when they couldn't produce enough airplanes, tanks and gasoline. Japan fell technologically and was losing airplanes 10-1 at the end, and ships too. US on other hand had 10,000 bombers in Europe and was producing couple ships a day. US and Canada also supplied Russia with food, raw materials, military equipment etc. It is estimated that half of calories consumed by Russian solders in 1944 was from America, and they were still starving. Most likely Russia wouldn't survive without US help.
When I said that GDP makes superpower it was simplification, but it's pretty much right with few exceptions.

barbarian
25-09-10, 18:10
crazy

crazy


i hope "crazy" has good meaning :rolleyes2:

[/QUOTE] Ridiculous to see that Brazil (thnks to football) is a local superpower while Turkey (thnks to ****** up football) is not.[/QUOTE]
that was joke about brazil. i put it there because they have huge natural abundance, dynamic economy, high population etc.

[/QUOTE] Turkey (thnks to ****** up football) [/QUOTE]
??

Mzungu mchagga
25-09-10, 23:38
Oh ok, I didn't get your joke then first. Hahaha! :D

Hope you got mine, too! ;)

barbarian
26-09-10, 19:52
I don't think that any EU member state can be described as a separate superpower from the EU. All countries are two inter-dependent economically and bound by EU treaties.

The EU is obviously a superpower, and so are the USA, Russia, China and perhaps also India.

India is not a clear superpower for, despite its huge population, its influence on other countries is minor. Contrarily to Russia, India does not have any privileged relationships with countries in its periphery, and actually is in conflict with its main neighbours, Pakistan and Bangladesh.

I don't see any other country that qualifies as superpower.
i dont think Russia is superpower. They just took their armies back from Georgia, when US army came to Black sea. But, they are getting stronger in economy. and their political power on neighboring countries is still high.

I am not sure about China and India but their economy look too foreign- addicted to me.

let`s talk
27-09-10, 09:52
i dont think Russia is superpower. They just took their armies back from Georgia, when US army came to Black sea.
It depends on what you mean by "Georgia". If you mean the same thing as the US and Turkey mean, the Russian troops are there and are not going anywhere in the nearest future. If by "Georgia" you mean the place that Russia and some other countries mean, the Russian troops never planned to occupy it or violate its independency in any form. The presence of foreign troops on the territory that Russia recognizes as Georgia led to the de jure recognition of independency of previously de facto independent from Tbilisi Abkhazia and South Osetia. It the geopolitical sense it was the reply of Russia on the recongnition of the independence of Kosovo by the US&others.

barbarian
27-09-10, 22:17
It depends on what you mean by "Georgia". If you mean the same thing as the US and Turkey mean, the Russian troops are there and are not going anywhere in the nearest future. If by "Georgia" you mean the place that Russia and some other countries mean, the Russian troops never planned to occupy it or violate its independency in any form. The presence of foreign troops on the territory that Russia recognizes as Georgia led to the de jure recognition of independency of previously de facto independent from Tbilisi Abkhazia and South Osetia. It the geopolitical sense it was the reply of Russia on the recongnition of the independence of Kosovo by the US&others.
although, in my opinion, Russia was completeley right what he had done in that crisis. they went back from georgia (not from osetia) just after US war ships came in black sea, to a port of georgia (first time since 1921 after Montreaux agreement) . However, you seem like more related to russian politics than me, may be i am wrong. but, i know that russia loose control on poland, ukraine, georgia, azerbaican, hungary, and most of its former associates. and they have, now, 100 billion dollar missile system in front of their nose, in poland. and they are almost neighboor with US (Iraq).

let`s talk
28-09-10, 15:05
US (Iraq).
What's that? You have to write something serious if you want people talk to you seriously.

barbarian
28-09-10, 21:50
What's that? You have to write something serious if you want people talk to you seriously.
cool down my friend. i didnt mean anything bad. in contrast, i appreciated what you wrote.

i just want to say US is in Iraq. and so, US almost neighbour with russia.

sorry for my bad english

^ lynx ^
28-09-10, 22:12
- i believe there is only one superpower on earth now, and that is US.
- EU is not superpower since there is too much different countries having different political targets; weak army; high level of democrasy. and the most importantly, they dont have claim or power on other parts of the world.
- Germany cannot be super power since it, in my opinion, has only strong economy and knowledge.
- Russia, Germany, France, UK, Sweden, Australia, India, China, Brasil (thanks to football), Japan and Mexica. are my choices for local powers.
- China has a chance to be superpower. but they are under the invasion of giants of capital which means that they may loose the control of the country, and they have non uniform race distribution which may, together with social unequalities, cause internal chaos.
i believe India has a chance also but not in the close future since they have the similar disadvantages with china. Brasil is my surprise.
Turkey, Khazakistan, Morocco, Nigeria can be local power in the future if they are lucky enough.

Yeah sure, and Radovan Karadzic will be the next president of the United Nations. :indifferent:

I don't know how any mexican government could be able to control any continent when they aren't even able to control their own nation, btw.

Greetings.

barbarian
29-09-10, 00:04
Yeah sure, and Radovan Karadzic will be the next president of the United Nations. :indifferent:

I don't know how any mexican government could be able to control any continent when they aren't even able to control their own nation, btw.

Greetings.
its nice to see such a friendly, and sophisticated contributors here.

may be you can also add some serious explanations for what you are trying to say, sir.

LeBrok
29-09-10, 04:50
Well, Lynx made another friend, lol. He never wrote anything positive about Mexico, or Latin America. He thinks they all hate Spain, so he hates them back. That's the explanation. Am I wrong Lynx?

^ lynx ^
29-09-10, 04:56
Well, LeBrok continues with her harassment towards me. Did I said anything offensive or incorrect about Mexico?

OK. I'll correct myself: Mexico is a future superpower, they don't have any kind of internal security problem, there are no narco groups ruling in the country, Ciudad Juarez get bad press and Robert Rodriguez is the best filmmaker to ever exist.

Are you happy now, Lebrok?

LeBrok
29-09-10, 07:19
The point was to introduce you to our new friends, and show what they can expect from you. Job well done lynx.

Anton, Bear's den
22-05-11, 12:36
i dont think Russia is superpower. They just took their armies back from Georgia, when US army came to Black sea. But, they are getting stronger in economy. and their political power on neighboring countries is still high.

I am not sure about China and India but their economy look too foreign- addicted to me.

Russia is not superpower and truly to say I don't think that we need it again in USSR style, then we subsidized half of backward third world countries (including the various dictatorships) for the sake of loyalty, often in own detriment; spent a lot of forces and resources on weapons that were not used, kept in leash Eastern Europe in conflict with their wishes etc... it's all were mistakes.
Modern term "superpower" means the country which constantly pokes own nose into the affairs of other countries, spends billions to maintain puppets around the world, fighting wars over resources. From my point of view it's stupid, I am sure that simple Americans don't care much about situation in the Middle East, Irak or Libya. Normal ordinary people care about their personal prosperity.
The normal country with a sense of dignity should have reasonable military force to protect its own sovereignty from intruders & and various "democratic" noses from the abroad, but not to dictate different sick ideologies around the world like communism or ideology of "forced democratization", wage wars for resources.

There is no sense to occupy Georgia because no one planned it & Georgia by itself is a encumbrance. Yes, encumbrance becasue it's poor country even by the standards of post-Soviet space. Georgia and Central Asia have always been a economic encumbrance for the Soviet Union. Georgia got the hit in the nose for her aggressive actions, nothing more.

As for EU, I think that what Europe need is mutual assistance. When Italy met the problem with influx of immigrants, no one helped. That shows that no one cares really. So that is ridiculous to speak about EU as about superpower.

barbarian
23-05-11, 11:43
....

There is no sense to occupy Georgia because no one planned it & Georgia by itself is a encumbrance. Yes, encumbrance becasue it's poor country even by the standards of post-Soviet space. Georgia and Central Asia have always been a economic encumbrance for the Soviet Union. Georgia got the hit in the nose for her aggressive actions, nothing more.



if georgia would be just an encumbrance, then cuba also was a encumbrance for USSR. additionally, georgia is an alternative petrol and natural gas route to russia-ukraine line. azerbeijan, kazakhistan, turkmenistan are big petrol producers and they dont have sea to transport them.

Gavroche
23-05-11, 15:47
As for EU, I think that what Europe need is mutual assistance. When Italy met the problem with influx of immigrants, no one helped.Sorry but i don't totally agree...

France tried to help them, we don't close our frontiers and we started a discussion about Schengen agreement. Europe will change the situation...


So that is ridiculous to speak about EU as about superpowerWe can't be a "Superpower" because we have differents point of view on it?

It's ridiculous to try to unify our nations?
We try to have an European army, an European economy, an European laws and social system...and that's just the beginning...

Anton, Bear's den
23-05-11, 17:08
if georgia would be just an encumbrance, then cuba also was a encumbrance for USSR. additionally, georgia is an alternative petrol and natural gas route to russia-ukraine line. azerbeijan, kazakhistan, turkmenistan are big petrol producers and they dont have sea to transport them.

Cuba was a burden since 1962, yes. But there is a little bit other story, no one cared about Cuba until the moment when Americans placed the PGM-19 Jupiter missiles in Turkey in 1961 year. Soviets decided to answer with the same coin. The moment was very lucky & convenient. In Cuba through the revolution Fidel Castro got the power in 1959 year, he wanted to end with role of Cuba as cheap brothel for Americans and to end with the local corrupted dictator Fulgencio Batista. He made his revolution not under communist flag or something, that was pure Cuban event.

No one will attack Georgia just because exist some plans about Nabucco Pipeline to bypass Russia. If Europe is so afraid of Russia's resources then Russia will sell surplus of resources to China, China is fast growing world factory and don't feel the lack of funds. Money doesn't smell.
In addition there is a lot of peaceful methods to influence Central Asian countries.

Anton, Bear's den
23-05-11, 17:32
Sorry but i don't totally agree...

France tried to help them, we don't close our frontiers and we started a discussion about Schengen agreement. Europe will change the situation...

We can't be a "Superpower" because we have differents point of view on it?

It's ridiculous to try to unify our nations?
We try to have an European army, an European economy, an European laws and social system...and that's just the beginning...

From Russia sequence of events looks like:
- Italy got a lot of immigrants
- Italians asked for help
- No one helped because no one really cares about problem of Italy
- Italians decided to give Schengen visas for immigrants in revenge
- France closed border with Italy (for immigrants)
- Revision of the Schengen agreements ....etc... endless shifting of responsibility, every one cares only about own "village" and common institutions of government in Brussels have no authority. Sorry but EU parliament looks like nursery school, all what parliamentarians are doing is blaming each other for the lack of democracy.

Honestly I wish all the best to europhiles and all other people who want see Europe as rich powerful united state, even if such perspective in some sense pretty risky for Russia. In XVIII century Russia rapturously supported the independence of the United States from the British Empire, bad that nobody knew what a headache it will turn.

LeBrok
23-05-11, 18:07
In Cuba through the revolution Fidel Castro got the power in 1959 year, he wanted to end with role of Cuba as cheap brothel for Americans and to end with the local corrupted dictator Fulgencio Batista. He made his revolution not under communist flag or something, that was pure Cuban event.
Oh, you were reading soviet books again. Just knowing the fact, that soviets were the masters of propaganda, should had pointed you in the right direction.
Castro was power hungry, demagogue that told people lies to get them fighting, to got him into power. It would explain why he was a ruffles dictator for last 50 years. For 50 years Cubans lived in poverty and lack of freedoms, like slaves.
Do you really believe that Castro did all of this to his people, because he cared for them?! :petrified:



In addition there is a lot of peaceful methods to influence Central Asian countries.

I agree, but unfortunately none of these methods are known to Russia. :laughing:

barbarian
23-05-11, 21:44
anton why both US and Russia send their armies to georgia?

lebrok, as far as i can understand, no ex-USSR countries hate USSR. the education level is considerable high in those countries. and they could adopt to west easily after divorcing. russia seem to me fair wrt other superpowers in the history.

but, may be i am wrong.

Dagne
23-05-11, 22:15
Barbarian, do you actually think that Stalinist USSR were fair when they annexed Baltic states and then deported to Gulangs and killed thousands of people there? :useless:

iapetoc
23-05-11, 23:22
lets see.

first what is power and in what fields,

1, a power must have enough Energy, and minerals to produce extra, and to be less depended,
according that USA China Russia Brazil South-Africa etc could be powers
but not that much Germany or France, But the whole EU could be.
Energy can be oil, sun power Hydro power wind etc

2, Must have enough population to defend her shelf, or to invade
By that Kuwait is rich country but can not be super power,

3, must have solve all inner problems, and the politicians must not be quided by Bankers,
Hmmmm difficult. that makes countries like India or Turkey Giants with feet made of thin glass

4 must have an economy to be less spend than others, in that North Europe is far ahead,
Scandinavia and Germany are far ahead.

5 must have secrets of production so that other countries must depend to their products, (must be have secret techology) in that england and France are quite good,
But USA CHINA RUSSIA are far ahead, (Israel is very good to that)

6, people must be well educated so in difficult cases they must know how to react,
even Hygiene rules are included, (think SIDA problem in south Africa) that makes some new powers to be still behind.

So for me USA is a super power, Russia is a super Power, China is Super power
India Brazil Japan UK France Germany Pakistan and the whole EU are still powers

Turkey South-Africa Persia(Iran) Indonesia Colombia Australia Canada Korea can be powers.

also some African countries like Zair (Kongo) Egypt Nigeria Kenya if manage to handle Sun power and inner problems they can developed enough to become powers

barbarian
24-05-11, 00:06
Barbarian, do you actually think that Stalinist USSR were fair when they annexed Baltic states and then deported to Gulangs and killed thousands of people there? :useless:
i dont know much about what happened in the USSR era, but, what i see after USSR collapse, lots of well educated and considerable industrialized small countries. some of them still prefers communist or socialist goverments. i believe the life would be much worse in the central asia countries now, if they were not a part of USSR.

again, may be i am wrong. i dont know much about USSR.

LeBrok
24-05-11, 05:16
barbarian, you're missing one of most interesting and horrific periods of modern European history. Get few books dude.

I agree that some of central Asian countries wouldn't be economically and educationally better without soviets, though many of them had to die for it. On other side of the spectrum European soviet-block countries would be better off without the "red vampire".

If we are talking about Baltic states, plus Poland, Czechs, Slovaks, Hungary or Ukraine there is not much love for Russia here. We are still waiting even for apology. Anton doesn't believe that Russia did something wrong, and probably most Russians neither.

Anton, Bear's den
24-05-11, 13:04
Do you really believe that Castro did all of this to his people, because he cared for them?! :petrified:

Castro had great successes in medicine, education and self-determination of Cuba, he was very popular among common Cubans. Yes, Cubans live very poorly today, that's result of command economy and U.S. blockade. Have no idea why they still practice command economy if even Russia refused 20 years ago. Probably for them is enough to have sandy warm beaches and fruits.

Castro is not saint, but it far not as bad as retard dictators as cannibal Jean-B├ędel Bokassa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-B%C3%A9del_Bokassa) or african dictator Idi Amin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_Amin) which had a special pool with crocodiles / aligators for those who disagreed with his policies or Saddam Hussein which had pool with sulfuric acid.

By the way, I hope you don't think that US never supported dictators?
Saddam Hussein was a big friend of America during his war with Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War), he got a lot of weapons from USA.
Or story with Mohammad Mossadeq, the first democratic president of Iran which was elected in august 1953 and overthrown with big participation of CIA and replaced by the dictator Shah Pahlavi. It was made just because Mossadeq was for nationalization of some oil enterprises. Democratically elected Salvado Allende in Chile is the same story, USA was very loyal to Augusto Pinochet because he did not want to nationalize American companies, unlike Allende. Where is democracy?
Or American ally absolute monarchy of Saudi Arabia where is still repressive dictatorship and laws like death penalty for change of religion (betraying of Islam), forced amputation of hands & legs for petty offenses and other savagery.

iapetoc
24-05-11, 14:15
Yes you right,
CIA polices and support to crazy inhuman dictators is wrong and a bad thing,

Now let me see, what was Stalin?
was he a CIA dictator? hmmm quess not,
was he elected every 4-5 years by the people? hmmm quess not,
then?
All i know is that he ordered many people to go to siberia and build cities in temperatures >-20 C
with no food and warm,
Yes he was Clever than Hitler, Hitler did not thought to put his enemies (Jews) to build cities,
he just killed them,
Stalin as smarter he let them die, by Building cities and villages in criminal conditions,
yes it is better than to send them swim in a pool full of crocodiles,

the case of Castro and Che is another story, simply he is not that mad (paraphron)

Anton, Bear's den
24-05-11, 15:36
anton why both US and Russia send their armies to georgia?

lebrok, as far as i can understand, no ex-USSR countries hate USSR. the education level is considerable high in those countries. and they could adopt to west easily after divorcing. russia seem to me fair wrt other superpowers in the history.

but, may be i am wrong.

US send severel ships to Georgia for moral support of their puppet, the main purpose of that puppet to spread stench on the doorstep of Russia. Georgia totally depend from USA: Georgian officials receive a salary from America, not from local budget; USA supply Georgia by offensive weapons even today; gives credits; send instructors to train the Georgian army; Georgian president has American adviser which is constantly with him; during conflict Russia's soldiers killed a lot of black african mercenaries so USA helps them with manpower. There is even street of "George Bush" in Tbilisi.
But Georgia is not a democracy of something, it is disguised authoritarian country. 1st president Gamsakhurdia lost his power because of revolution, second president Shevardnadze lost power because of "revolution of rose" in 2004, Mikhail Saakashvili will end his presidency in the same way if he will not stop to press the opposition. Georgia despite of American help is very poor and have big problems with unemployment, real incomes hardly grow.

Strongly negative attitude to USSR have all 3 Baltic states because they were annexed by force, it was decision of Stalin. I would not do it of course because that have not sense to transform your country in the prison of nations, no one knows today what head of this Georgian priest thought about.
Strongly negative attitude to USSR also have East Europe, especially the Czech Republic and Poland. Czech Republic because their uprising of 1968 year was suppressed by force. I think Soviets thought this is not acceptable to let one of the countries of the Warsaw bloc to go in free-swimming at the height of the Cold War. They feared a domino effect.
Eastern Europe and others should not forget that Soviets got Eastern Europe by accident, during the war against Nazism. They had not plans to invade Europe before WWII. In some sense the Soviet domination in Eastern Europe is a payment for the second world war. Czechoslovakia did absolutely nothing to protect themselves from Hitler. This is a retribution of fate in some sense.

In Ukraine western (to west from Kiev) part have negative attitude to USSR, but their is special case. Western Ukraine always was a pain in the ass. Before XIII century these lands were Orthodox Christians, but later when common historical state of Ukraine and Russia ceased to exist (because of the Mongol invasion), western Ukraine came under the influence of Poland. This part has replaced original Orthodox religion by Catholicism and lost contact with the roots. Western Ukraine was a part of Poland from XIV to early XVIII century; was a part of Austro-Hungarian Empire up to the WWI; became part of Poland again after WWI; again was annexed to Soviet Ukrainian Socialist republic after WWII; since 1991 year is a part of independent Ukraine. While Russia had absolutely other history, Russia defeated Mongols after a long period of payment of tribute and turned into a huge multi-cultural country.
Western Ukraine is a trouble because it's a center of far-right Nazi sentiments, extremely chauvinistic and aggressive, with national heroes like Stepan Bandera - mass murderer of Jews, Poles and Ukrainians. And of course they blame Russia for all their problems. Ask "Europa" user, sure she/he from that place.

Although, to name USSR as colonial power is hardly possible. Soviets helped a lot to own satellites, Ukraine during Soviet Era built aircraft carriers, merchant ships, submarines, had a lot of research institutes, powerful machinery production plants, huge amount of money, time & forces were spent on the development of Ukraine and other Soviet Republics. Ukraine before Soviet Union represented by itself a wild field overgrown with grass.
It's only in American Cold War propaganda movies Soviets always showed as maniacs with mental disorders which love to kill people for no reason, but reality is a "little bit" differ.

Belorussia, Eastern Ukraine, Central Asia have nothing against Soviet Union. Central Asia actually was saved from religious fundamentalism by Soviet atheism.

Anton, Bear's den
24-05-11, 15:38
Yes you right,
CIA polices and support to crazy inhuman dictators is wrong and a bad thing,

Now let me see, what was Stalin?
was he a CIA dictator? hmmm quess not,
was he elected every 4-5 years by the people? hmmm quess not,
then?
All i know is that he ordered many people to go to siberia and build cities in temperatures >-20 C
with no food and warm,
Yes he was Clever than Hitler, Hitler did not thought to put his enemies (Jews) to build cities,
he just killed them,
Stalin as smarter he let them die, by Building cities and villages in criminal conditions,
yes it is better than to send them swim in a pool full of crocodiles,

the case of Castro and Che is another story, simply he is not that mad (paraphron)

Which relation have Stalin to Cuba theme? I don't understand

iapetoc
24-05-11, 17:48
Which relation have Stalin to Cuba theme? I don't understand


simply almost none,

Stalin Belongs to the groups of Bloody Dictators, (the ones you call CIA agents)
he used to see conspiracies everywhere.
while Castro is still under discuss, on how much Bloody he is as a dictator,
(it can't be so much innocent, but surely is more innocent than some bloody presidents)
yes the case of Ossetia is in modern debates,
But personally I don't know who to support,
the case from autonomistic groups there is Huge,
from chechnia to abhajia the place is powder, a time cloak bomb.
where oil pipes pass, bombs are on the way,
look at Levant, Balkans, Georgia, Ucraine,
OIL pipes or Gas pass under land,

Anton, Bear's den
24-05-11, 18:38
simply almost none,

Stalin Belongs to the groups of Bloody Dictators, (the ones you call CIA agents)
he used to see conspiracies everywhere.
while Castro is still under discuss, on how much Bloody he is as a dictator,
(it can't be so much innocent, but surely is more innocent than some bloody presidents)
yes the case of Ossetia is in modern debates,
But personally I don't know who to support,
the case from autonomistic groups there is Huge,
from chechnia to abhajia the place is powder, a time cloak bomb.
where oil pipes pass, bombs are on the way,
look at Levant, Balkans, Georgia, Ucraine,
OIL pipes or Gas pass under land,

Yeah, Stalin is a bad man, I don't like him.

barbarian
25-05-11, 13:11
US send severel ships to Georgia for moral support of their puppet, the main purpose of that puppet to spread stench on the doorstep of Russia. Georgia totally depend from USA: Georgian officials receive a salary from America, not from local budget; USA supply Georgia by offensive weapons even today; gives credits; send instructors to train the Georgian army; Georgian president has American adviser which is constantly with him; during conflict Russia's soldiers killed a lot of black african mercenaries so USA helps them with manpower. There is even street of "George Bush" in Tbilisi.


what you wrote explains, what i am trying to say. georgia is important for US. with the current situation in Iran, georgia and ukraine is very important for US and russia in terms of the transportation of the caucasian energy to europe. orange revolution was made in ukraine for this reason. georgia is very important for turkey also since there is an armenian blockage in front of azerbeijan and turkey. i believe, US will use turkey against russia in the future for this reason.

thanks for advice lebrok. i will have some books:)) i need to do it. because my daughter is half russian

Anton, Bear's den
25-05-11, 15:15
what you wrote explains, what i am trying to say. georgia is important for US. with the current situation in Iran, georgia and ukraine is very important for US and russia in terms of the transportation of the caucasian energy to europe. orange revolution was made in ukraine for this reason.

Caucasus have no energy resources by itself, the middle Asia have. But if even someone will build a pipeline to bypass Russia then they need also a natural gas / oil for filling of pipeline. Problem for them is that Russia already outbids the lion's share of Central Asian gas (gas transportation system connected with Central Asia since Soviet Union) + China buys a lot there, there is simply not enough gas for pipeline.
And all that Nabucco project have no progress for 10 years already, it looks like half-dead. In Gorbachev style - talking talking talking... :laughing:
The same story with shale gas in Europe, bullshit & splurge :grin:


georgia is very important for turkey also since there is an armenian blockage in front of azerbeijan and turkey. i believe, US will use turkey against russia in the future for this reason.

I think US have not big influence on Turkey, Turkey looks pretty independent in foreign policy. Turkey have contacts with Iran, very skeptical about intervention in Libya, and not big lover of Israel policy. Russia & Turkey have around 50-75 billions of trade every year (and it growing), don't think that someone will sacrifice it just for the US foreign policy caprices.
In problem of Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, Russia just don't want that war between Armenia & Azerbaijan will begin again, this is a road to nowhere.

barbarian
26-05-11, 08:49
Caucasus have no energy resources by itself, the middle Asia have. But if even someone will build a pipeline to bypass Russia then they need also a natural gas / oil for filling of pipeline. Problem for them is that Russia already outbids the lion's share of Central Asian gas (gas transportation system connected with Central Asia since Soviet Union) + China buys a lot there, there is simply not enough gas for pipeline.
And all that Nabucco project have no progress for 10 years already, it looks like half-dead. In Gorbachev style - talking talking talking... :laughing:
The same story with shale gas in Europe, bullshit & splurge :grin:



I think US have not big influence on Turkey, Turkey looks pretty independent in foreign policy. Turkey have contacts with Iran, very skeptical about intervention in Libya, and not big lover of Israel policy. Russia & Turkey have around 50-75 billions of trade every year (and it growing), don't think that someone will sacrifice it just for the US foreign policy caprices.
In problem of Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, Russia just don't want that war between Armenia & Azerbaijan will begin again, this is a road to nowhere.

to be the energy provider of the europe gives russia gives strategical advantages. you could understand this during the ukraine (gas stealing) crisis. georgia could be nice alternative to ukraine also. russia would prefer multi-customer, instead of china.

nabucco is a european project to create an alternative route to russia-ukraine line. if it fails, it shows that they are looking for some better solutions.

although i accept the idea of importance of russia for turkey, loosing georgia means loosing the the gate of caucasia, and turkic countries for turkey.

iapetoc
26-05-11, 11:47
well that is a part of truth.
there are 2 pipe lines
Nabuco and South Stream

1 is Russian-Bulgarian-Greek-Italian project
2 is USA-Turkey most, Greek or Bulgarian, Fyrom,Kossovo Bosnia -Croatia project

the first from Abchaz (russia) to Burgas (Bulgaria) to Hgoumenitsa(Greece) and from there to Brindezi (Italia) and in Future to Naples so can move to spain

the second from Azerbaijan through Turkey to Greece or Bulgaria, from there to Fyrom, Kossovo, Bosnia-Croatia and then to Italy north,

the first although Greece has made and ready the pipes stoped due to Bulgaria demands,
the second was a great promise from USA with large quantities, but until today not even 1/10 of the year quantity has passed.
why?
cause the tax earned by the pipes could save Greek economy,

The future is not in Caucas but in east mediterrean,
the more the oil prices raise the less expensive is the oil Turkey Greece Cyprus Israel Egypt Albania, Bulgaria

the first 'eye' of Gas and oil is among Greece Turkey and Cyprus east of Crete, west of Cyprus,
the second is Cyprus Israel Lebanon Turkey south of Adana,

the minors are Egypt Israel Cyprus
Greek Albanian of Cephallonia and Aulon (Vlore) (Its is Huge but very Deep,
it starts from south west Greece and goes up to El Basan)
Ahtopols (Bulagaria) to Semisounta (Samsus) North of Anatolian earthquake tectonical cut.

Billion of money were spend to build from Burgass to Adriatic pipe lines, and no oil and small m3 of gas passed,
why?

the case of Georgia is just an impression, or to create unstability,
Russia is using (I think Novoroshisk is the name) another exit, while Georgia is using batum and Shochum, from Ossetia no body pass, yet problem is Ossetia.

the case of Ucraine is Gas pipes, and the Taurica ports, ex-USSR fleet bases are there. so indeed is a problem,
Taurica belong to Russia before Chruchev but he gave it to Ucraine,

the case of Russia with Turkey is another issue,
Russia only needs north Ossetia just to create a secure dinstance from its pipes, and unstability to Georgia,
Georgia needs Ossetia and Abchazia to create unstabilty to Russia,
But Georgia is a christian country, so the less the cristian teritories occupies, the more becomes islamic, so the dilemma is stronger,

puppets or mercenairies are everywhere.

Georgia needs USA so not to be again USSR country and more autonomus,
Georgia needs Russia so not be islamic and a new tottaly changed country,

Turkey wants to be the merchants of oil of the areas east of Caucas to Europe,

Nabuco is project that is not finished and never will be,
Nabuco was a USA promises just to stop South Stream
USA and turkey promises 11 000 000 m3 of Azerbaizan gas and oil that will pass, but 4 000 m3 gas are given each year,

simly in future the east mediterrean gas and oil will be in debates,

Barbarian you know that,
Turkey has casus Beli with Greece, Cyprus, for the 12 miles sea zone, and is not in good with Iesrael,

Mzungu mchagga
26-05-11, 14:59
5 must have secrets of production so that other countries must depend to their products, (must be have secret techology) in that england and France are quite good,
But USA CHINA RUSSIA are far ahead, (Israel is very good to that)

I can't think of any secret technology Russia and China have. Russia widely dropped out of leading technological research after the Cold War, still reaping the fruits of past days. And China's secret technology is largely comprised of stealing and plagiatism.

From my observation European cooperation in science and research is far better than in politics or sometimes even economy. I almost dare to say, on a global level, THIS is EU's greatest strength! When it comes to that, EU is still far ahead of, for example, China.

Gavroche
26-05-11, 17:25
China's secret technology is largely comprised of stealing and plagiatismI agree, they don't know how to make planes for example...


THIS is EU's greatest strength!There are also social innovations, but yes, it makes us stronger (Project "ITER" for example)...

Anton, Bear's den
26-05-11, 18:11
to be the energy provider of the europe gives russia gives strategical advantages. you could understand this during the ukraine (gas stealing) crisis. georgia could be nice alternative to ukraine also. russia would prefer multi-customer, instead of china.

nabucco is a european project to create an alternative route to russia-ukraine line. if it fails, it shows that they are looking for some better solutions.

although i accept the idea of importance of russia for turkey, loosing georgia means loosing the the gate of caucasia, and turkic countries for turkey.

Nabucco is idea of Bill Clinton administration, not European. Maximum possible capacity (in case of Iran participation) is 31 billion cubic meters of gas per year, without Iran just around 10-15.
http://gdb.rferl.org/869B10B3-ED9F-422E-9AFD-9A02AC2D4410_mw800_s.gif
For comparison:
North Stream - 55
http://visualrian.ru/images/large/625648
South Stream - 63
http://visualrian.ru/images/large/689347
When South Stream will be finished in 2018 through Ukraine will be transported only 5-10% of gas.

iapetoc
26-05-11, 22:43
I can't think of any secret technology Russia and China have. Russia widely dropped out of leading technological research after the Cold War, still reaping the fruits of past days. And China's secret technology is largely comprised of stealing and plagiatism.

From my observation European cooperation in science and research is far better than in politics or sometimes even economy. I almost dare to say, on a global level, THIS is EU's greatest strength! When it comes to that, EU is still far ahead of, for example, China.

You could right to that,
But still Russia has the secrets of MIR and many space secrets,
and China makes expirements that are not anounced, At least 2 kinds of flew (whatever) came from china,
we don't know how their laboratories are safe, and what kinds of expirements they have,

remember what had happened when a ship, airplanes carrier was sold to china....
and how Turkish wanted to not allow it pass the narrows.


Europe's secret today are mostly in pharmaceutical, medicines, etc,
USA is promoting the myth of area 51 I think, an area that aliens etc...
Russia was promoting at least guys like zirinifski (whatever) of having super guns.
still secrets of Russian technology like Kursk submarine are sunk in the bottom of the sea,
while myths say about laboratories like area51 east of Urals,
China needs no myths, simply forbids you to go to many areas,
you need license etc, only that can allow myths to go on,

to understand more theory and practise have something that is more,
technologia and technognosia
technologia for example is computer,
technognosia is how to create a microchip,
how many countries have theory and work on computers, technologia
but how many have technognosia to produce a ram.

well we all know in theory how an anti-tetanic is made,
but how many of us can produce anti-tetanic,

remember the case of selling a disarmed air-carrier to china by Russians was considered not a sell of iron, not a sell of a ship, but a sell of technologia to become techognosia!!!!!.

iapetoc
26-05-11, 22:46
Nabucco is idea of Bill Clinton administration, not European. Maximum possible capacity (in case of Iran participation) is 31 billion cubic meters of gas per year, without Iran just around 10-15.
http://gdb.rferl.org/869B10B3-ED9F-422E-9AFD-9A02AC2D4410_mw800_s.gif
For comparison:
North Stream - 55
http://visualrian.ru/images/large/625648
South Stream - 63
http://visualrian.ru/images/large/689347
When South Stream will be finished in 2018 through Ukraine will be transported only 5-10% of gas.


SOuth Stream is finished in Balkans, and gas could be transported by Ships,
simply Bulgaria anounced that stopes progress and plan,

Nabuco is never to be finished,

the only gas that is entered Greece until today is mainly by
Sonatrach.
Gazprom gave only 2,5 *10^9 m3 until today,
while Botas although promised 0,75 *10^9 m3 untill now few m3 passed.

Mzungu mchagga
27-05-11, 18:32
You could right to that,
But still Russia has the secrets of MIR and many space secrets,
and China makes expirements that are not anounced, At least 2 kinds of flew (whatever) came from china,
we don't know how their laboratories are safe, and what kinds of expirements they have,

remember what had happened when a ship, airplanes carrier was sold to china....
and how Turkish wanted to not allow it pass the narrows.


Europe's secret today are mostly in pharmaceutical, medicines, etc,
USA is promoting the myth of area 51 I think, an area that aliens etc...
Russia was promoting at least guys like zirinifski (whatever) of having super guns.
still secrets of Russian technology like Kursk submarine are sunk in the bottom of the sea,
while myths say about laboratories like area51 east of Urals,
China needs no myths, simply forbids you to go to many areas,
you need license etc, only that can allow myths to go on,

to understand more theory and practise have something that is more,
technologia and technognosia
technologia for example is computer,
technognosia is how to create a microchip,
how many countries have theory and work on computers, technologia
but how many have technognosia to produce a ram.

well we all know in theory how an anti-tetanic is made,
but how many of us can produce anti-tetanic,

remember the case of selling a disarmed air-carrier to china by Russians was considered not a sell of iron, not a sell of a ship, but a sell of technologia to become techognosia!!!!!.

Well, as I already said, Russia is reaping the fruits of past days. It wouldn't be so far ahead in space craft and army technology if they wouldn't have invested to much money into it and did much research like 20 to 30 or more years ago. Today, there is hardly any technology taken over from Russia by other states. But on contrast, Western Europe is catching up very fast. And as I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, just because a nation doesn't produce much technology in a certain field, it doesn't mean it wouldn't be able to. Theoretically, EU could raise a huger and very modern army and launch new space crafts if it was interested and transfered the needed money into it. It has what you would call technognosia.

I don't give much credit to other conspiracy theories such as hidden mutant armies underneath of Siberia, technology from aliens found in New Mexico or robot warriors from China.

Reinaert
27-05-11, 21:08
Well, it's quite simple.. The Europeans don't want a superpower, because that superpower uses force to poke their noses internally and externally.

Even today my call for communalism is proven to be right!
Within the EU zone trade is already at a too large scale!

People in Germany suffer from illness because cucumbers were produced in some other EU country, with infected manure.

Let every country produce it's own food.

And that's directly in contrast with the idea of a superpower!

iapetoc
27-05-11, 21:17
Well, as I already said, Russia is reaping the fruits of past days. It wouldn't be so far ahead in space craft and army technology if they wouldn't have invested to much money into it and did much research like 20 to 30 or more years ago. Today, there is hardly any technology taken over from Russia by other states. But on contrast, Western Europe is catching up very fast. And as I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, just because a nation doesn't produce much technology in a certain field, it doesn't mean it wouldn't be able to. Theoretically, EU could raise a huger and very modern army and launch new space crafts if it was interested and transfered the needed money into it. It has what you would call technognosia.

I don't give much credit to other conspiracy theories such as hidden mutant armies underneath of Siberia, technology from aliens found in New Mexico or robot warriors from China.


well you may have a point to that,

France had a space project, Ariane i think was the name,
Satelites mostly are made in Sweden-Finland etc,

but lets see? parts?
who makes RAMS CPU today,
and from what material??
I heard about an earth(sand) that is only in China and is the main matterial of all computers in the world, I maybe am wrong, but????

Superpower does not mean many Nuclear, or missiles, etc,
Ebola virus can be more usefull than 000 of Neutral bombs !!!!!


on the other hand
you may have right,
many of the 'Secrets' could be 'far' and exaggerate,

i am not goin back to correct it,
just put out the china and about Russia hmmm its up to you,
I wanted mostly to put some rules on what kinds of fields a country can be Super power and in what can be just a power, Hope you understand my view, and about china, ...ok lets put it out of number 5

iapetoc
27-05-11, 21:54
Well, it's quite simple.. The Europeans don't want a superpower, because that superpower uses force to poke their noses internally and externally.

Even today my call for communalism is proven to be right!
Within the EU zone trade is already at a too large scale!

People in Germany suffer from illness because cucumbers were produced in some other EU country, with infected manure.

Let every country produce it's own food.

And that's directly in contrast with the idea of a superpower!

well about cucumbers :grin:

All I know that is like bannanas and other fruits,
they are cutten at a lenght of 4-8 cm, and spay them with water and hormones,
in 2-4 days they reach sizes like that at market,

I know about water melons,
simply when we cut them in makedonia are white, and bitter like poison, (not even chicken eat them)
and when they are sold in Germany are red,
why?
cause market laws demand to be good for at least 4-6 days in market, and should be ready that,
so market laws demand to be cut at least 10 days before become mature,
travel for 2-3 days, stay in storage for 1-5 days with hormones, stabilizers etc. and then to be sold,
according the demands of the market, and should be 3-4 days in a market store,

think about bannanas,

Anton, Bear's den
27-05-11, 23:55
Mzungu mchagga is right, science in Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union received a huge amount of damage. Simply no one was interested in science and many talented people left post-Soviet space in 90s. But this does not mean that nothing develops. 20 years are gone already.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-News/2009/1029/russians-to-ride-a-nuclear-powered-spacecraft-to-mars

Also I think Russia saved some advantage in nuclear energy and will go further. There is a project of waste-free nuclear power plant based on fast-reactor. It works on the waste of conventional nuclear power plants.
http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2011/03/17/russia-nuclear-power-yes-please/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_reactor
Now when the accident occurred at Fukushima many countries will froze own nuclear projects, or even cancel them. But not here.

New rocket from Angara family prepares to replace outdated rockets in 2012-2013
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angara_(rocket_family)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus-M
http://www.futura-sciences.com/fr/news/t/astronautique/d/le-nouveau-lanceur-russe-angara-pourrait-voler-en-2013_24491/

Network of satellite monitoring is almost ready
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLONASS

Slowly but steadily Russia creeps out of the pile of feces

There is partnership with European space agency, ESA using old Soviet Soyuz rockets for launching of satellites for the Galileo in French Guiana spaceport
https://rt.com/news/rocket-space-launch-kourou/

Anton, Bear's den
28-05-11, 00:12
Problem of Europeans is that you guys do not act together and often shoved a stick in the wheels of each other. I read once that even in European space agency exist a some part of a feud between the French and German. This is reflected in the results. For example 10 years ago Galileo and Glonass were on the same stage of development, today Glonass is almost ready while Galileo project almost did not move.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/11/us-russia-sweden-glonass-idUSTRE73A1S320110411

Reinaert
28-05-11, 09:28
Problem of Europeans is that you guys do not act together and often shoved a stick in the wheels of each other. I read once that even in European space agency exist a some part of a feud between the French and German. This is reflected in the results. For example 10 years ago Galileo and Glonass were on the same stage of development, today Glonass is almost ready while Galileo project almost did not move.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/11/us-russia-sweden-glonass-idUSTRE73A1S320110411

Well, Galileo is planned to be used in 2013-2014.
It's a civil system, that is more precise than GPS or Glonass.
At least Europe will be independent from USA and Russia.

And of course the Americans don't like it, and call it a "loser" project.
Just like the former Concorde project I guess.. :grin:

Anton, Bear's den
29-05-11, 00:25
Well, Galileo is planned to be used in 2013-2014.
It's a civil system, that is more precise than GPS or Glonass.
At least Europe will be independent from USA and Russia.

And of course the Americans don't like it, and call it a "loser" project.
Just like the former Concorde project I guess.. :grin:

Any satellite systems primarily for military, secondary for civilian application. Even internet started as military programm of Pentagon. In civilian sphere is possible to use several satellite systems at the same time in devices for greater accuracy. In Russia nobody plans to abandon from GPS just because it's American. Contrary, in the civilian sphere will be used both.

Concorde was a great plane, why the it was canceled?

barbarian
29-05-11, 01:15
http://www.nabucco-pipeline.com/portal/page/portal/en/press/NewsText?p_item_id=A297E805CEADAB20E040A8C00201793 9

the new time line of nabucco.

i insist on the idea that it is EU project, although it is also backed up by US. current supporters are, mainly, germany and france.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabucco_pipeline

it is simple and easy, they want alternative gasline for their machine.

Gavroche
30-05-11, 15:29
Concorde was a great plane, why the it was canceled?-too expensive
-too polluting
-too old

For Europe, "Airbus" is the futur...

And "Ariane" isn't only French, this is an European collaboration...

iapetoc
30-05-11, 17:37
http://www.nabucco-pipeline.com/portal/page/portal/en/press/NewsText?p_item_id=A297E805CEADAB20E040A8C00201793 9

the new time line of nabucco.

i insist on the idea that it is EU project, although it is also backed up by US. current supporters are, mainly, germany and france.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabucco_pipeline

it is simple and easy, they want alternative gasline for their machine.


Nabuco is over, it was just a political pipeline so to stop south stream project,
my cousin was at Greece Turkey fiesta of Nabuco and worked for global development Banks,
Nabuco is a myth,
Turkey in Future will keep all Azerbaizan stock,
in Greece they laugh about Nabuco,
So many money to transport what?
simply modern engineers reject it,
It has a huge cost, and the quantities are little,
a few m3 of Gas and oil?

well the future is a new project soon you will learn about it,
when Greek crisis is over, or a war starts in Balkans,
Simply Greeks are not Selling their Gas,
Turkey is pressing Greeks and has casus beli in 12 miles zone,
that is why Greeks Germans and IMF are in mood to 'fight'

Not even 1 meter of Nabuco pipe line is set in Greece, while South Stream is almost finished,

Simply the connection among Greece and Turkey will be just to secure the xtra demands at a rush hour, or an alternate pipeline,
Turkey is more to grow industrial, and will absorve all Azerbaizan oil and gas,

if Greeks manage to kick away the Harvant politicians,
last votes had 45% no vote and 50% total white, bad and non vote,
then a new project Israel Cyprus Crete Greece Albani project will be.

Nabuco was a project of USA to stop Gazprom growing,
Gazprom can give cheap and enough gas,
while Nabuco dynamic is less at least 80-90% and 15% more expensive,

in a few years Turkey and Greece must find a treaty about Lycaonia oil and Gas,
Soon south Turkey will be the rich area of Turks,
the quantities that engineers are talking about are huge,

Soon Lycaonia Cilikia (Atalleia-Antalya, Myrsina-Mersin) will be the rich areas of Turks,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_HnhXQE8dE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8M-rJULXlo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dozs5AUiAQ&feature=related

things are simple,

Germans as old allies with Turks, are pushing a crisis in Greeks,

Turkey if 12 miles naval zone will be expand will lose billions of barels,
so all Bankers etc are pushing Greeks,

watch in 3rd video the oil among Bulgaria and Turkey,

there are huge quantities, but very expansive to drill them, cause are they are very deep.


Nabuco is not even 1% of these,
South stream passes from the central of Pontus eye area,

that is an old story known from 1968 whaen dictators were in Greece,simply if the oil stays in lands,then south Italy ALbania, Bulgaria Greece Turkey Cyprus Israel., can rebuild their economy and industrial eras return,

in Italy they know about that, but the northens are waiting to see,if they all agree to drill them then industrialization will move from North Italy to south, and south East Europe will overpass the north west Industrial,
remember hora, piri reis, etc ships were they search for oil????
why?
why turks hired a Norwegian ship to search Aeagean, and we had a 2 day warm time???