PDA

View Full Version : The "Norway Anomaly"



Taranis
28-09-10, 13:31
What's up with Norway?

Specifically, I noticed something very strange on multiple Y-Haplogroup maps which has puzzled me:

- The presence of Haplogroup subclade R1b-L21 (ca. 10-15%) in Norway (it caught my eyes in the Myres paper).
- Likewise, the presence of Haplogroup Q (ca. 4%) in Norway.

Until there was only Haplogroup Q I didn't give much thought into this, but if you take R1b-L21 into consideration in addition, a very strange pattern emerges here. Obviously, neither the Celts nor the Huns were in Norway, yet both Haplogroups are unexpectedly abundant there. Is there an explanation for this unusual pattern? :thinking:

Shetop
28-09-10, 14:31
One possibility for Q are Eskimos.

That would mean they came from Greenland. In favor of this is the Q subclade found in Norway - Q1a3.

Their starting point would be Central Asia, then across Bering Strait, Canada, Greenland...

LeBrok
28-09-10, 16:37
How old is the oldest settlement on Eskimos in Greenland?

Taranis
28-09-10, 17:37
Well, while I wouldn't rule out an Eskimo origin (since Norse-Ekimo contact obviously happened!) the scenario has the following consequences: Eskimo men must have arrived - in reasonably quantities - in Norway. Same with (Irish?) Celts... :shocked:

Shetop
28-09-10, 21:18
How old is the oldest settlement on Eskimos in Greenland?

"The Saqqaq culture is the earliest culture established in the southern and western parts of Greenland. It arose around 2500 BC and declined around 800 BC. For much of that time Saqqaq culture coexisted with the Independence I culture, which arrived in northern Greenland from Canada."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Greenland#Early_Paleo-Eskimo_cultures

So they had 4500 years to get to Norway. Definitely not impossible.

Aristander
28-09-10, 23:18
I agree the Saqqaq or other native people are probably the source, ancient people were a lot more mobile than we know. Skin and wooden boats don't hold up too well over a couple of thousand years.

iapodos
28-09-10, 23:59
Q in Norway is an old topic.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25927

Theodisk
29-09-10, 07:55
What's up with Norway?

Specifically, I noticed something very strange on multiple Y-Haplogroup maps which has puzzled me:

- The presence of Haplogroup subclade R1b-L21 (ca. 10-15%) in Norway (it caught my eyes in the Myres paper).
- Likewise, the presence of Haplogroup Q (ca. 4%) in Norway.

Until there was only Haplogroup Q I didn't give much thought into this, but if you take R1b-L21 into consideration in addition, a very strange pattern emerges here. Obviously, neither the Celts nor the Huns were in Norway, yet both Haplogroups are unexpectedly abundant there. Is there an explanation for this unusual pattern? :thinking:
Not ever defined a haplogroup also an ancient group. You cant say, R-L21 was only celtic. So its possible that some pre-celts/celts of this subclade split and a part migrate to the south of Norway and becoming a part of the Nordic (Northgermanic).

Also compare the STR profiles (the DYS marker) of R-L21 people with other nordic haplogroups or rather subclades. When the mutation (allele) difference of profiles is not so strong (+-1 allel), then you will see that the R-L21 was more nordic than celtic.

Maciamo
29-09-10, 09:49
I believe that R-S116 and its subclade R-L21 represents the first wave of R1b1b2 to reach Western Europe from the steppes. It is the one that is found at the western and north-western fringes of Europe, in western Iberia, western France, the British Isles and south-western Norway. Have a look at my R1b migration map (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml#R1b) (requires Flash player) to see how that happened.

All Scandinavia, and not just Norway, have a few percents of the Siberian haplogroup Q. As there is apparently very little Q among the Saami and Finns, the presence of this haplogroup is Scandinavia must be the result of an isolated migration. It could be a trace from an Ice Age group of Siberian hunter-gatherers that ended up locked in Scandinavia, just as another group of Q made its way to the Americas.

But it is also possible, like Dr David Faux suggested, that a group of Huns settled in Scandinavia. After all it is well-known that the Huns were a confederation of many ethnic groups from the steppes (including a lot of R1a) as well as Germanic people who ha migrated to Eastern Europe at the time (Goths) and became allied with the invading Huns. The Goths' homeland being Sweden, it is entirely conceivable that, they returned there with some of the Huns, and perhaps made their way to Norway, where R1a and Q are in consequence higher than in the rest of Scandinavia nowadays.

I like this Hunnic theory because haplogroup Q is also found in other places where the Huns settled, like Ukraine, Romania, Hungary and Slovakia, all of which are also rich in R1a. The Romans documented the Hunnic rampage and migrations within their borders, but they had no way of knowing what took place in Scandinavia.

Theodisk
29-09-10, 10:24
The Goths' homeland being Sweden, it is entirely conceivable that, they returned there with some of the Huns, and perhaps made their way to Norway, where R1a and Q are in consequence higher than in the rest of Scandinavia nowadays.

That the homeland of the Goths is Sweden or Gotland, its an old theory. Archeological (Wielbark-Culture) and linguistic science have demonstrated, that the ethno sailed of the Goths was on the continental (todays Poland).

Look on the Wikipedia about the Goths: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goten
(I hope you can understand a bit german; The english Goth article talks about a swedish origin, buts not true, its an old romantic and mystical introduction)

It could be, that the Goths were a hybrid from R-L4, I1 and R1a.

Taranis
30-09-10, 14:12
Not ever defined a haplogroup also an ancient group. You cant say, R-L21 was only celtic. So its possible that some pre-celts/celts of this subclade split and a part migrate to the south of Norway and becoming a part of the Nordic (Northgermanic).

Also compare the STR profiles (the DYS marker) of R-L21 people with other nordic haplogroups or rather subclades. When the mutation (allele) difference of profiles is not so strong (+-1 allel), then you will see that the R-L21 was more nordic than celtic.

Hmm... you're right in so far that there is no way of knowing if L21 was exclusively Celtic. I just dubbed it "Celtic" in so far as L21 appears to be strongly (but obviously not exclusively) associated with the Insular Celts. However, you're right it could obviously very well be pre-Celtic, which easily could explain the presence in Norway.

Yorkie
18-10-10, 10:46
Hmm... you're right in so far that there is no way of knowing if L21 was exclusively Celtic. I just dubbed it "Celtic" in so far as L21 appears to be strongly (but obviously not exclusively) associated with the Insular Celts. However, you're right it could obviously very well be pre-Celtic, which easily could explain the presence in Norway.

Yes, perhaps L21 has several sources in Norway. The enslavement of Irish 'Celts' [some of whom would be of pre-Gaelic origin] must be a key variable here too. That is not to suggest that L21=enslaved Irish. It doesn't, but one rather suspects that at least a fraction of this clade 'strongly associated' with Celtic areas, came from this unfortunate trafficking. The evidence for an extensive trade is presented in the work of Brondsted, Jones, Magnusson etc.

Taranis
18-10-10, 11:23
Yes, perhaps L21 has several sources in Norway. The enslavement of Irish 'Celts' [some of whom would be of pre-Gaelic origin] must be a key variable here too. That is not to suggest that L21=enslaved Irish. It doesn't, but one rather suspects that at least a fraction of this clade 'strongly associated' with Celtic areas, came from this unfortunate trafficking. The evidence for an extensive trade is presented in the work of Brondsted, Jones, Magnusson etc.

Let me say this: we don't know if L21 is exclusively associated with the Celts (it probably isn't), but there seems to be an association with the Insular/Atlantic Celts - it is also conceivable that L21 arrived on the British Isles before the Celtic languages did. If the latter scenario is correct, it is possible that L21 arrived in Norway in rather ancient times, even though in that scenario there is no explanation why L21 is rare in the rest of Scandinavia.

And you are correct, the Norwegian Vikings did have a heavy presence in both Scotland and Ireland, so the trafficing scenario is at least conceivable.

And, I agree, we can't rule out that both scenarios are possible.

willy
18-10-10, 18:19
That the homeland of the Goths is Sweden or Gotland, its an old theory. Archeological (Wielbark-Culture) and linguistic science have demonstrated, that the ethno sailed of the Goths was on the continental (todays Poland).

Look on the Wikipedia about the Goths: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goten
(I hope you can understand a bit german; The english Goth article talks about a swedish origin, buts not true, its an old romantic and mystical introduction)

It could be, that the Goths were a hybrid from R-L4, I1 and R1a.

I do agree with R-L4 I1 and R1a probably they came from Caucasus in a distant past and Central Europe is also a good possibility I see the Goths as a oriental Germanic tribe who came in the North some traditions with Odin are connected to the Caucasus the legend is that Odin came from that area ...